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Old 20th December 2011, 02:23 PM   #166
Raymond
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Re: Married and lonely

Very well put Forever.

Funny enough I was reading that passage this morning in 1 Cor 7. I looked up the original greek as well which says that the wife does not have authority/power over her body, her husband has. Also vice versa the wife has authority over her husband's body. That virtually says to me if they want it you have to give it. It rules out sexless marriages. It goes on to say do not deprive each other. The real desires should always be met.

Of course there is room for negotiation as Forever explained. There are some things that the other cannot face and one needs to be loving and not force things. My wife is not comfortable with oral as it happens. I don't force either way because basically she wants to meet my need and I wouldn't say that oral is a basic sexual dna need for me. If it was we would discuss it more but my leading is to drop it if she is not comfortable with it. There are plenty of other things she does and affirms that I would not discuss on here.

Basically sex is a gift from God to be enjoyed whether it is for procreation or not. Each couple are free to embark on that journey and explore the intimacy in ever greater freedom. I think your wife needs an awakening in that area George. If marriage is a picture of Christ and the Church surely it includes the one flesh joy and adventure of the marriage bed.
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Old 20th December 2011, 08:25 PM   #167
Forever
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Re: Married and lonely

George,

I have been thinking.

It appears to me that given your wife's upbringing, she probably has been "taught" that having sexual desire is tantamount to "LUSTING"...which is a sin. If I am correct, then she has this whole idea WAY WAY out of context.

For her to engage in sex, in her mind, there must be a "godly purpose"...so Creation would qualify and give her the "covering" for doing the "deed" in God's eyes.

Even during a qualified "sanctified" act, she still does not want to be guilty of evoking the sin of "lust"...hence the need for her to call so many shots and restrictions...so she does not "sin" or cause you to do so.

Someone ought to explain to her about a thing called "context". That is, lust (being a strong sexual desire) is NOT a sin in the context of being married as long as the "desire" is for the experience with one's spouse exclusively...ie not thinking on someone else, or being "primed" by something outside of the marriage.

The Bible clearly states that our sexual desires should be directed to our mates and enjoyed therein....whenever the one or the other wants to express it...that includes you.

Will she need to accommodate you...even if the idea did not originate with her...even if she does not "feel" like it? You bet. Would you accommodate her if she made an advance towards you...likely. Does the word "accommodate" taint the whole expression and ruin the enjoyment?
It would be ashamed if it does...that thought would be way out of context too if that were the case...don't buy into it. I often do not "feel" like cooking dinner after a day at work...but I do it anyway because I love my husband and want him to be well fed and pleased....and he is. That is love in action....should he turn down the wonderful meal I made for him just because he knows I really did not feel like making it? I hope not.

Our personal autonomy is never to be used to exclude the needs and desires of our spouse...otherwise, we have no business getting married.

We are here to serve one another....that is our "duty" (another word for you to contemplate)...especially regarding marital sex so that the Devil does not get a foothold for "lusting" after someone who is not our spouse.

You have been reduced to MB throughout the entire marriage. If, when doing that, you are thinking on some "hot babe"...you are lusting and sinning. But if you are doing MB while thinking about your wife and all the things you would like to do to her (and vice versa)...envisioning the two of you "that way" you are not sinning...you are simply fantasizing about what you and she are missing out on and finding a physical outlet for that unfortunate frustration.

Last edited by Forever; 20th December 2011 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 20th December 2011, 08:46 PM   #168
chosen
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Re: Married and lonely

george
I have a great book called 'Intimaty ignited' by joseph and Linda Dillow and Dr Peter and Lorraine Pintus. Its basically a Christian book on sex in marriage going through the Song of Soloman verse by verse. There is also one for women, written by the two women above called 'Intimate issues'. There are Many good books on marriage such as 'His needs her needs' by Willard Harley which does says what things are important to both men and women in marriage, one of the main once for men being a good sex life. Another that may help your wife see how men tick is called 'for women only' by Shaunti feldhahn. She will need to you to tell her how unhappy you are about all this first, as if you have just accepted it all this time, it wont change overnight. Not many men would put up with not comsumating the marriage for 5 years, and not surprisingly!!!!!

After all these years it wont be easy to change things. Her very distorted views on sex are probably very deep seated and probably come from her own mothers distorted views.

One of the things that makes me so sad, is that so many Christians have the belief that sex is somehow dirty and that God leaves the room when we have sex!!!! This is changing however, and there are many good Christian books now on marriage and sex. My pastor did a talk on marriage recently, and how he knows so many marriages where there have been affairs, and he said it is so important to have lots of sex in marriage. I agree. One of the reasons that God gives for regular sex in marriage, is so the spouse who is being deprived wont be tempted to be unfaithful.
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Old 21st December 2011, 02:18 AM   #169
George
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Re: Married and lonely

Wow. I have to say I'm somewhat taken aback by the supportive comments and suggestions. Thank you Forever, Chosen and Raymond, your messages are warm and helpful.

Where to start? Well, what is my wife afraid of ? Perhaps I should, but I really don't know.
There are a couple of specific things she has definitely mentioned though :
1) no physical activity at all while the children are in the house - awake or not - as she's worried they will see or hear something. Of course the children are always in the house when we are, so this constraint stops anything happening, period !
2) the neighbours and noise - no noise to be made whatsoever in case we disturb the neighbours.

Other than that I think that a combination of a strong focus on living (her definition of) a Christian life, a general lack of interest, plus sex as lust being a sin, result in it not ever getting onto her priority list.

I suppose this does mean I am being "starved on many levels", although I haven't really felt it as strongly as that, despite feeling that intimacy is missing. I suppose falling into line with what she says and wants was, for me, a way of showing that I love her. Of course as you suspected, this has meant that mb has been the only physical way out for me and I have to admit that while most of the time I have thought of my wife at such times, it hasn't
always been the case.

Anyway Forever's comment "How about she is being insensitive and selfish for knowing it about you and not giving in to your hearts desire from time to time? Why does everything have to be about her exclusively?" blows my passive acceptance out of the water of course.

And again, when you also say "it seems as if she has no interest in the needs of a man on the physical (sexual) level", and considers sex "lustful" and a sin, I think that hits the nail on the head too.

A few months back, thanks to this site, I purchased the book "The Act of Marriage", a Christian book, I hope you agree. I left it on my bedside table without
commenting on it and read a few pages each night before going to sleep. A few days went by uneventfully - but with me at work during the day, and then one evening I was confronted by my wife who asked why I had such a pornographic book. She continued to call me a pervert (I'm not making this up) for possessing and reading such a thing, and leaving it where the children might see it as well. I protested that it was a Christian book, to no avail. I was flabbergasted, I removed the book, and nothing more was said. I should have told her I wasn't happy about this as Chosen suggests, but I didn't, mainly because I know from experience there is no point is debating things. Her word is final.

I think this event helps convey the fact that there aren't any "areas of negotiation" that I can enter into. All of Forever's suggestions are delightful, but a distant dream unlikely to become reality it seems to me. I have been blind to all this, but of course love is blind. I'm now beginning to wonder if she loves me, as another of Forever's comments has made a significant impression on me as well "We all accommodate each other in various ways and for a variety of things...otherwise how can anyone be considered loving or giving or kind?". I'm finding it difficult to find one thing in our married life where she "accommodates" me. Her priority is the children and the church. I come a lowly third, if that and even then I do all the food shopping, cooking and my own ironing, as well as being the one who has a full time job. I'm not complaining about that - I love cooking for example, it's just struck me that nothing gets done for me. I commented in jest last week that our two Guinea pigs are better looked after than me, but all of a sudden that rings true and isn't funny any more. I hope this is not the "can of worms" that Chosen refers to.

Forever, your second message, where you have been "thinking" , really is excellent, thank you. I just love your statement, "Our personal autonomy is never to be used to exclude the needs and desires of our spouse...otherwise, we have no business getting married." So much food for thought.

For now, one final comment regarding "duty" and 1 Corinthians 7. I have now looked at quite a few translations, and to be frank many of them I do not find at all helpful. For example the New Internatonal Version and others has "The husband should fulfil his marital duty to his wife and likewise the wife to her husband". May be I'm just naive, but I always interpreted that to be a very wide command - along the lines of respecting and "accommodating" your spouse's wishes as in Forever's statement I quoted above . I had never read it to mean anything to do with sex. Somewhere else where I, or may be I should say both I and my wife have been going wrong.
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Old 21st December 2011, 03:16 AM   #170
Forever
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Re: Married and lonely

I seriously think that her reasons given in (#1 & #2) are straight up bovine skitology...designed to evoke irrational fears, rather than to address the fact that people manage to do it all around the world...even with neighbours and children in close proximity....they just have to wait till the kiddies are sleeping, and really, truth be told, the neighbours are not sitting in your living room are they?

Also, her distress about you reading that book and insisting that it is "perversion" is her way of making sure you do not delve further into the subject matter without feeling loads of guilt...because she does not want you to realize what you are missing, or God forbid, have any expectations of practicing some of those ideas in your own marital bed.

She is afraid...and will come up with anything she can to squelch lovemaking...because she thinks of it as sin outside of making babies. The whole thing is abhorrent to her.

As long as you appear to be satisfied living with the status quo, she will be satisfied not to have to accommodate your needs and desires, let alone exploring some of those wonderful things designed by God for her own pleasure too. The problem I see is her blind selfishness that has permeated areas of the entire relationship...starting with something so very basic and fundamental to a man's needs.

I am sure she does not mean to deprive you...but isn't that what you "signed up for" since she laid down the "law" from the very getgo? Trouble is people do change don't they? And you may well be changing because you feel the impact from the lack of physical intimacy over the years and the effects it is starting to have on you.

Sexually speaking, you are living under some strict Law (legalism) and maybe you are wondering what it is like to live under the joy of Grace?

Last edited by Forever; 21st December 2011 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 21st December 2011, 04:36 AM   #171
chosen
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Re: Married and lonely

As forever says,(the same as I thought when I read your last post), the reasons that she gives are all just excuses. In her mind there will always be a reason not to have sex. If you had a weekend away together without the children, it would probably be the excuse of the people in the hotel room next to yours. If you rented a cottage miles from anyhwere, there would be another reason, like the risk of pregnancy. Even her refusal to use any sort of birth control will give her the excuse not to have sex. .
I do think that she should have told you before you married that she wasnt going to a)have sex for 5 years, and b)after that not unless she wanted a child, and c) wasnt going to use birth control. It wasnt right that she married you knowing what she felt but not telling you.
Her apparent distaste towards sex and aversion to sex seem very very deep. I can ony think that her mother drummed this into her while she was growing up because it is very strong. Basically she is in control, she says that you dont have sex, and that is that. She sees sex as dirty and to describe a Christian book on marriage and sex as pornographic is extreem to say the least. I have never known anyone with such Victorian ideas about sex.

This wont be easy George, her attitudes are intrenched and deep, but with Gods help things can change in time, if she is willing to think of you and your needs as well as everyone elses. According to the Bible, I would say that after God(and that doesnt include church activities) you should be first, then the childen, and then her church activities. Hasn't she read Ephesians? It says a lot about how wives are to treat their husband with respect and are to adapt themselves to him. The thing is that she is thinking that she is such a good Christian lady but is blantantly disobeying all of Gods instruction for wives.Her priorities are all wrong and upside down.

I do wonder if there is anyone at your church that you could go to about this? Is there a couple who you both know and trust there? Would she even speak about this with another perosn? Even if she wont go george, is there a mature Christisn guy who you can speak with and who you can pray with about this on a regular basis, because it isnt normal or right. The thing is that she is in total control at this time, and she wont like it if you rock the boat, so you will need to be patient and pray a lot and hopefully get godly support on this.

That verse is definetly talking about sex by the way, because it then says that if you have a period of prayer and abstinence you are to come back together quickly to avoid tempation. In the context of the passage, you can tell Paul means sex.

I would start by praying about it, telling God how you feel, go and see a mature godly man who you trust and go from there.

Last edited by chosen; 21st December 2011 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 21st December 2011, 09:54 AM   #172
Raymond
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Re: Married and lonely

As for 1 Cor 7 George. The context of the verses from the start is sex. Starting at verse 1 that it is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless in order to avoid fornication (sex outside marriage) let every man have his own wife and vice versa.

It goes on to say the wife does not have power over her own body etc. Her body means her physical body and vice versa. In the context it has to mean sex. It goes on to say don't defraud one another unless it is with consent that you may give yourselves to prayer but make sure that you come back together (sex) so that Satan does not tempt you as has already been pointed out.

I think an opening is apparent when you mb thinking of other women sometimes. That door should be closed by enjoying one's normal marriage rights (yes sex not something else). Ask your pastors opinion of the verses. Don't just take what I say. I think you will find that most know exactly what is says.
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Old 21st December 2011, 09:59 AM   #173
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Re: Married and lonely

Okay George,

I have been thinking again.

Let's just say that you are ready for a long over due "awakening"...but your wife will never go "there" on her own accord or by being prompted by you...let alone anyone else.

You spend months (or years) getting educated on the ideals laid out before Christians about our sexuality as married couples and it is looking quite enticing...especially since God is the one giving us the green light...as opposed to what the "world" says....In other words, there are a few godly boundaries, but definately not the kind you are accustomed to having to live.

So far so good.

Then you realize that you have been "screwed" all these years...but not necessarily in the way that you preferred.

You realize further that your wife has had the utmost of control...outrageously so, and not by logical and reasonable interpretation from Scripture, by any stretch of the imagination...and certainly not by her acquiring good Christian counsel regarding this issue.

What then?

What are you willing to risk to straighten out this mess?...Your wife, your home...your children's stability...WHAT?

The problem I see here is that your "awakening" (apart from your wife's awakening), is going to result in a potential opening of Pandora's Box if you act apart from God.

We can sit here as arm chair counsel and tell you what is wrong...and be very much "on the money" in principle...but apart from God's intervention...you could destroy your marriage if you act out on your own accord. You did, after all, know the parameters that your wife had upon entering marriage...and it did seem to be reasonable at the time...or perhaps you just did not see long term problems with it and thought you could handle it...or perhaps you thought she would grow to see how "looney" and selfish her standards were...I don't know.

At any rate, you need much more than we (here) have to offer....and all the Christian books in the world wont help one nit apart from the next truth I say...

You need God, through His Holy Spirit, to convict your wife as you continue to communicate your needs and desires to her. Yes, you HAVE to tell her what your needs are...speaking kindly to her about it once a week or so, until the Lord (not your wife) tells you to "shut up" (so to speak)... and then leave it to the Lord to go to work on your behalf. She needs to hear from you c-l-e-a-r-l-y how important it is to intimacy in marriage as well as to your need for physical fulfillment...then God will take it from that point.

Otherwise, she will think you are perverted and tainted by the world and by the ideas derived by the "wicked" books you read...regardless of the truth of the Scriptures that you learned to confirm your case.

Sometimes, we are pretty much helpless to "fix" what is an obvious easy fix...but what is easy for us, is NOT so easy to those who are held in bondage...which is what has happened to your wife long ago.

I hope you are getting what I am trying to say. Is your temporal fulfillment really worth the destruction that can happen if you do not lean heavily on the leading of God in this issue?

I am not saying that this is something that should not change...it definitely is long overdue....and God would have you learn of it and then trust and depend upon Him for the fulfillment...but you must first be convinced that it is right and good and a gift from His hand.

I also know that this issue has empowered your wife to think that since she has controlled you on a very basic and fundamental level all these years...that she must have had it "right" since she has not met up with much of your own resistance (you were trying to be loving towards her by sacrificing yourself). But she is WRONG...and she is going to have to "meet up with God" if she does not learn to respect and love you along with all your needs and legitimate desires.

Nevertheless, you must proceed with caution since she cannot be won over by anything other than the Spirit of God working on your behalf...not by coercion, or logic or by any human reasoning or by strength or might or human power or sentiment. It is God who sees and understands where you are heading with this...and it is He who will rescue you (and her).

Last edited by Forever; 21st December 2011 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 21st December 2011, 02:08 PM   #174
Raymond
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Re: Married and lonely

I would add prayer as well. Once you know your direction you can pray more specifically for a conviction to come. You are not the first with this problem. Many refusers have been awakened through prayer. The ones I know are really making up for lost time and seem more 100% than ordinary people now.
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Old 22nd December 2011, 01:55 PM   #175
Chamomile
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Re: Married and lonely

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever View Post


Nevertheless, you must proceed with caution since she cannot be won over by anything other than the Spirit of God working on your behalf...not by coercion, or logic or by any human reasoning or by strength or might or human power or sentiment. It is God who sees and understands where you are heading with this...and it is He who will rescue you (and her).
Hi

Excellent and compassionate posts for "George".
Regrettably, this would be a difficult one.

I've known a couple. Once upon a time, this H had his first W who was just like what George had described about his W. He and his former W were essentially incompatible as lovers and they got along well as a roommate over a number of years. It virtually took years for him to leave this first W because he felt obligated to stay in this highly damaging marriage. Yes, she accused him of being a "pervert" and all sorts of other things. Eventually, his former W had several affairs and that's when he finally decided to move on.

I'm not sure if G's W will always stay "oppressed" if she were with someone else whom she may have been more compatible "that way". You either fancy someone or you don't. No one can force a woman or a man to fall in love with someone.

It's not a very happy marriage if she loves a man like a roommate because he is an excellent provider and a nice Daddy for her children. I believe no one can try to force her to change and I wouldn't be shocked if she wasn't quite in love with G by judging from what G had described......His W quickly went so defensive about the "book", that goes to show she has no interest whatsoever.

Some people marry too young when they don't even know what love in marriage actually means, not that I am saying this is what George's marital issues would/or might be. A very tough one, I'm so sorry to say.

xx
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Old 5th February 2012, 02:16 PM   #176
George
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Re: Married and lonely

First I must apologise that it's taken me so long to come back to the board and reply.

Thank you to everyone who has replied, but especially to Forever. Forever you should go into counselling, because your advice is always good, but when you put your thinking cap on, you're brilliant and really hit the nail on the head! You've put things so beautifully and correctly in my eyes.

To you and Chosen, I totally agree that I cannot act apart from God, and the Holy Spirit needs to intervene as there is no way I can change any of this on my own.
So, I've been praying about the situation, although I have not attempted to broach the subject with my wife as yet, as again you are exactly right that she will not be convinced by logic, reasoning, coercion etc.. We will have to see where this goes.

Chosen, I can never completely be sure of course, but on reflection I don't think my wife knew before we were married that she wasn't going to have sex for 5 years until she wanted a baby and wasn't going to use birth control etc.. I certainly didn't as it was never discussed and as I mentioned before, there was nothing physical going on at all before marriage apart from may be holding hands. So, I believe she never even thought about these things, it just wasn't on her radar at all.

So once we married she was confronted with the situation, and took decisions then, almost on the spot, to introduce all the rules etc.. I think Forever is right that all of a sudden she saw the gates of hell opening to welcome her as the whole question of sex (sinful lust in her eyes) arose on honeymoon.

I'll be praying and I'll try to let you guys know if anything changes.
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Old 6th February 2012, 08:00 AM   #177
Shasha
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Re: Married and lonely

Dear all,
You may have probably wondered whatever happened to me, as I was the instigator of the thread, "Married and Lonely"
Well, first of all, to give you an update, my husband, D and I no longer are considering for a divorce.
Matter of fact, we had been in talking terms for some time and have reconciled our differences and are slowly trying to mend the relationship and marriage.
Thank God, He intervened as He has done and saved our marriage.
We had considered separation, but when I thought about our son, it broke my heart to have to do this to him.
As I had been praying for some time, the Lord showed us His way and that was, to salvage what we had together and to try to live together in peace and love for His sake and also for our family's sake.
Divorce seemed such an easy way out, but what saved our marriage was forgiveness. Yes, I sought forgiveness from him and vice versa (although D is very stubborn and finds it difficult to handle his emotions).
Anyway, my husband is not all there, yet and still has a long way to go and will never be the perfect husband.
We are now seeing a counselor to help us iron out our differences and we have been praying together, as a family.
We are on a long journey in trying to stick to God's ultimate plan for this family. As long as we have God on our side, I believe we will have a successful marriage.
I am still engaged in my counselling course and am learning a lot about myself and how I relate to others and problems in my life.
Thank you guys for your consistently good advice and prayers.
Shasha.
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"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
That whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

"For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world,
But that the world through Him
might be saved." JN 3:16,17

Grace be with you all.
God bless!
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Old 6th February 2012, 11:58 AM   #178
Raymond
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Re: Married and lonely

If you are praying together then there has to be hope as you are agreeing for God to help. . Couples who pray together stay together as they say.

Thanks for the update Shasha.

Raymond
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Old 11th April 2012, 10:56 PM   #179
Shasha
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Re: Married and lonely

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If you are praying together then there has to be hope as you l are agreeing for God to help. . Couples who pray together stay together as they say.

Thanks for the update Shasha.

Raymond

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. You are so right! It literally means we are taking one baby-step at a time, one day at a time.
Take care
S
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"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
That whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

"For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world,
But that the world through Him
might be saved." JN 3:16,17

Grace be with you all.
God bless!
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Old 11th April 2012, 11:10 PM   #180
chosen
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Re: Married and lonely

Shasha
Thats fantastic news. Its lovely to hear that a marriage hgas been saved and that things are improving. They say that a marriage needs to be a three strand rope, the husband, the wife and God. God sometimes needs to be what holds the marriage together.
God bless you and your family.
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