masturbation, porn and marriage

Originally Posted by ilivin

What has not been mentioned in the above long discussion is that there are men who go to the internet and look at porn because they are stressed, tired, bored, anxious, angry, or scared. It is not about the need for sex, but about the need to escape from their painful feelings.
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So, rather than face the facts and deal with reality of everyday life and struggles, they can escape the feelings of stress, failure, etc, with zoning out to porn. Why porn and not alcohol etc? Well, superficially it appears as if porn won't kill you but smoking, alcohol, heroin, etc, will.

Ilivin,

Life is, indeed, tough. Despite all of modern day's conveniences and technology, life can still be tough. New problems come along. And I am sure that many in other countries or cultures would just love to have our problems, especially if they are really pathetic and pithy.

But what is happening today, and is almost complete, is the return of the man to the house - the domestic sphere.

The industrial age broke man away from his house and put him in a factory or he went to work in town. No longer did he find gainful employment under the roof of his house. Domestic chores were lumped on the wife, who became the house-wife.

Now, both men and women are back home together, especially those who are still living together as husband and wife. The old excused that 'house' chores is a woman's job just doesn't seem to carry weight anymore. Someone else seems always to be watching the kids during work hours.

Both husband and wife 'come home' wondering what is for dinner and who is going to make it. Many learn to share household chores.

But the sharing of house chores and raising of childrren, if any, blurs any natural distinction between male and female. Wives have learned to claim that they not only have a headache, but that they need their space. They are too tired. They are not in the mood. Sex has become a chore.

Depression can set in for men when they now learn that their wives consider sex, especially if the husband tries to initiate it, as a form of rape. Call it rape-lite.

Husbands begin to look back at their sex lives before marriage and realize that they had it pretty good. Sex was at times a cornucopia. There is now a prevelant philosophy that many men are adhering to today regarding whether to marry, especially if one's girlfriend is more than willing to give in to his sexual desires. The philosophical dictum goes like thus:

WHY BUY THE COW IF YOU ARE GETTING THE MILK FREE?

So, today, marriage is being postponed and ignored more so. Single men hear about their married brother not getting any and they don't want to be put in that situation. After the sexual revoluation, many women have made it worse on their sisters at large by making sex and sexual favors before marriage inevitable if not expected as part of the relationship. Women, in their desire to snag a man, have learned to do what it takes to catch him. Men have, in turn, learned that sex in all its forms is a part of dating and courtship. When they are convinced that their girlfriend is willing to drop her top or unzip and flip his whip, then when the candy shop closes after marriage - or its door slams on his face - he begins to wonder if celibate clergy are getting more sex than he is.

There is another philosophical dictum:

WOMEN SMILE WALKING DOWN THE AISLE BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY NO LONGER HAVE TO PERFORM ORAL SEX.

Yes, this may seem rude and a bit vulgar, but it makes sense to those many men who have tried to take on more domestic chores in this culture while getting less and less sex in return. Just when men have finally accepted their new place in the home, that which made them feel like men simply disappears. Not only are they NOT rewarded (and they still make anti-husband/anti-male jokes on sitcoms), they are expected to just simply understand.

Then many husbands find themselves at the crossroads. One path is a marital relationship that sucks more than one's wife, and the other path is availability of porn. Doesn't water take the path of least resistance too?

In my previous posts, I failed to mention how selfishness has become the currency of marital and/or sexual relationships. Men get addicted to porn on the Internet (or magazines, or videos); they become self-centered on their bodies. Their male sexual organs becomes their arena. Wives get angry and hurt when they find their hubbies getting off on some image of another girl. It hits home where many women have the biggest problem: their own bodies. Count the number of diet plans, TV and talkshow programs, and magazines aimed at female customers, and you will see that women are just as possessed or obsessed with their own bodies. Another form of selfishness becomes prevelant, but none dare call it self-centeredness (as opposed to self-centering) because men will just be reminded that such terms are politically IN-correct. Women are expected to have some space or time to themselves to get their bodily systems back in sync. But isn't this the same lame argument that men/husbands have used over the years in prior generations to go golfing with the boys, frequenting the pub, or fishing?

But the distance between a husband and a wife in bed is not further than before. Selfishness has created the new chasm. Let's just say that we are living in a culture that is nothing but ME-ism on steroids. My body. My feelings. My erection. My 'O.'

God bless.

Ilivin,

I reposted twice because I meant to say that men feel they do NOT get rewarded and near the end that such term are considered politically IN-correct. My addendum.

Case in point: I personally stopped cold turkey practicing masturbation a few years ago (my first attempt). I went for one year without whacking off and was actually proud of it - especially since it was an addiction of mine since the 8th grade - and wanted to share the news with my wife. She knew of my 'bad habit' and never wanted to talk about it. I thought that if she knew that I went clean from it for 365 days straight, no porn, no handjobs, no nothing, but my loving devotion and honor for her, she would find my accomplishment as my special way of telling her that I love her. But I was mistaken; she just called me a pervert like all men are. We didn't have sexual relations for another three months! I was only allowed to kiss her and that was it. No touching, no feeling her up, and definitely no boob carressing. I ended up looking up a few pics of some really beautiful gals on the Internet and found relief the best way I knew how.

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As for the reason for the practice of masturbation, I would like to make the following comments:

Orgasm from masturbation is so much powerful to many men than vaginal sex. It is very intense and one's finger can be directed or focused on the most intense spot. Anothe feature is that a man can enjoy is passively. He doesn't have to work as much with his body enjoying vaginal sex with his wife. Intercourse is more passive for women than men. This is probably one of the reasons why a man (or husband) really likes oral sex performed on him by his girlfriend (or wife). He's got the best of all possible worlds: passive and relaxing, less energy and more focused on actual stimulation, no fear of worry about getting the other pregnant, stimulation is just as intense if not more, and girlfriend's mouth feels just like a vagina.

When oral sex is no longer available, then the next step down in intensity is manual stimulation whether performed by girlfriend or wife or done by self alone. Here is were porn enters the picture (no pun intended); the visual factor of arousal is supplied by visual aids. The more erotic, the more intense at times. Porn has taken masturbation to newer heights somewhere between mere manual stimulation and oral sex.

I would gather that many married men out there who are addicted to porn probably knows what it is like to have such stimulation. Once you experienced it, it is difficult simply to forget or ignore. You want it again ... and again ... and again.

Porn has gotten a big hold on man's eyes these days. His attention needs to be directed elsewhere. As one male philosophized:

WHY GO AFTER HAMBURGER IF I AM GETTING STEAK AT HOME?

Excellent posts showing a very good understanding of men and porn. I'd like to add my own observations.

Guys like the easy variety they get with porn, not just the variety of women but the variety of sex acts.

For many men porn depicts women and sexual situations that they could never hope to get in real life.

Many men are lonely and have difficulty finding a partner, for them porn is their only sexual outlet.

The argument has been made that an orgasm reached through self masturbation, especially while watching a favorite porn video, is much more intenese than with partner sex.

Porn allows a man to indulge in the fantasy of "the willing woman" something men will not encounter in real life unless they are very, very rich and/or very good looking. A woman who does not need the song and dance of seduction and foreplay. A women who does not need to be chatted up. A women who is just there for you and only you. I cannot stress strongly enough the importance of this kind of fantasy to men.

Sexual boredom in a long term marriage or other relationship is very common. Porn gives married men a few minutes to escape into a world of sexual abandon. A world totally opposite to what they have in real life.

Internet porn is easy and takes no effort on the man's part.

Internet porn is like chocolate ice cream. You get handed a big bowl of the stuff with a big spoon to go with it. With relationship sex you have to grow the cocoa beans and milk the cow, THEN you can have your chocolate ice cream.

Originally Posted by Porn Guy

For many men porn depicts women and sexual situations that they could never hope to get in real life.

Many men are lonely and have difficulty finding a partner, for them porn is their only sexual outlet.

I would like to comment on these two lines from our previous poster.

First, for those men (or husbands) who get only the garden variety of sexual positions (i.e., missionary), a little variety does add spice to the relationship. Early in marriage, I remember doing it all over the house (apartment). If not on top of the bed, at least on the edge of it; or on the living room floor or on the couch or in the bathtub or in the hallway because we just couldn't wait to round the corner to our bedroom.

But different positions does allow a man/husband to enjoy the endowments of his woman/wife better at times. Take, for instance, sex on the edge of the bed or, my favorite, on the couch. If one's girlfriend/wife sits on the edge of the bed, the man/husband can have his hands free unlike the conventional missionary position whereby he is using both to hold himself up ... unless you learn to push her legs up to her shoulders, but then you end up covering some of her God-given endowments. When such "sexual situations" are missing, a man/husband misses out. The temptation of porn (and I am not making an argument for it) is that it depicts women in positions that can only be found on some men's wish list.

Statistical analysis or polls tell us that most women are not happy with their bodies. I think a lot of men/husbands would like to take those d--- statistics and polls and stick them where the sun doesn't shine. Most of us adore our girlfriends/wives; most of us can't get enough of them; most of us can't live through a day without thinking about how lucky we really are to have gorgeous babes! We overlooked the flaws and blemishes of our women before we had sex with them; we saw them bare it all in their birthday suits; and we still overlook their flaws and blemishes even after marriage.

I had a lengthy conversation the other day with a philosophy professor. What women forget - as they loose their youthful look - is that a man's appreciation of beauty also changes. When men reach a certain age, even as early as his early thirties, he develops an ability to love his gal even more. In my youthful past (teen and early twenties years), I could never get excited at any women older than me. But they time you are in your forties, even women in their fifties look fine. So many women get more depressed about their bodies, yet many men feel oppressed because they can never get a hold of them like they used to. So my point is this for all you women who hate their bodies and who read this:

IF YOUR MAN/HUSBAND IS STILL CHASING YOUR SKIRT, THEN YOUR ARE(!) BEAUTIFUL AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY, OK? GO CELEBRATE YOUR SELF-ESTEEM, BUT MAKE SURE TO BRING YOUR HUBBY ALONG TO POP THE CORK. DON'T LET HIM ATTEND A PARTY OF ONE. WEAR SOMETHING SEXY AND THEN LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND SAY TO YOURSELF, "DAMN, I'M SEXY! AND I'M NOT GOING TO LET HIM FORGET IT."

The big secret: do we really care? I don't say this to insult women or imply that sex is the A-1 steak sauce that will mask any bad or sad looking body. But us guys have become gravity challenged over time too. But a woman's self-preoccupation with being self-centered on her body has gone overboard at times. It has gone so far overboard that sexual relations with ol' hubby is irrelevant. In all this self-preoccupation with self-esteem, self-image, my body, etc, ... how many women have denied themselves fun, loving sex with those men who wish (and try hard) to remain faithful to them - even if it means going 'bed dead?' Somewhere between the sexual revolution and Oprah, women have lost touch. In turn, men/husbands have learned to resort to that lost paradise: touch. If they can't touch their girlfriends/wives, then hello penis. At least a man and his penis underestand each other.

[One more thing: women have forgotten, I believe, that they are truly powerful and in control. To hell with self-esteem! Doesn't a woman know how to use (not abuse) their sexuality and feminine attributes to hook a guy and rule over him? Sure, go ahead an laugh. But think: a woman didn't have to give away free milk and wonder if the cow would ever be bought back when. The old rule of thumb was simple: you don't pay, you don't play, big boy. But this power thing is off the subject of the thread.]

Second, loneliness has led many men to self-stimulation. This cannot be denied. Loneliness for a single man is no different at times from loneliness for married men. Both fall victim to a life where one cannot enjoy the pleasures of a woman. Some men may only resort to porn or masturbation when they are away from their female partners for too long. Others get addicted and never get to develop a loving relationship (read: doesn't necessarily mean a sexual relationship) with a nice gal. Unfortunately, there are also many very lonely women out there. But like the dream job, one has to work hard for it. A drop dead gorgeous babe isn't going to show up at a lonely man's door wearing a G-string and see-through bra asking him to take her any which way he pleases. Not even husbands can be THAT lucky! Relationships take time, effort, trust, and a lot of investment of attention, listening, and doing. Porn doesn't demand these things. One simply has to lay back and stroke. But there are many unlucky men who haven't gone down the right crossroads to bump into some gal, who is also looking. In a world of high tech communications, transportation, and socializing, there are still many lonely hearts out there. They need relief from society or from the shackles they locked themselves into, and so they find solace inside their pants.

Originally Posted by Liz

I don't think porn helps a marriage. It should be enough for both partners to enjoy each other. To me it's about fidelity - if my man wants to look at other women naked or having sex then it means he's not being faithful to me and it would hurt. The other trouble is that some men get addicted and looking at other women in this way blunts their response to their wife's advances.

Liz,

You are absolutely correct. There is the problem of reality and the reality of the problem.

Porn does not help marriage. As one poster states, it has distracted her husband from their marital bed.

But the reason for porn is not so easy to define. Some men who never cared to look at images of women (Internet, dance clubs, or print) may end up addicted to it. How it is introduced, its availability, and its mystery might help a husband make a decision for it. I'm not saying it is a good decision.

Many men bring porn into a marriage unbeknownst to their wives. Call it a failure in sexual development or sexual mal-development. Many husbands get hurt by their wives for whatever reason and their marital bed no longer bounces. They are caught between fidelity and flight. Many opt to remain 'faithful' in their own way. They still sleep in the same bed with their spouse and so find themselves in predicaments they wished not to be reminded of. Take, for instance, waking up one morning (after not having sex for two months) and viewing one's wife putting on her bra. A simple, almost mindless, task for the woman, but what about the husband? He just got a peek of something enticing, but unfortunately something he cannot nor will not be able to enjoy. Am I talking love here? No, not really. I am referring to daily routines that seem ordinary and innocent, yet a husband who hasn't enjoyed the marital privilege for weeks on end has now had his imagination stirred. Sure, go ahead and tell me that he just has to bite down hard on a wooden stick followed by a long, cold shower. Or better yet, he should just "get over it." I'm sure this isn't what you intended, but no man can understand what fidelity is all about when he hasn't had relations with his wife for weeks, months, or in some cases, years. Back when my wife was colder than winters in Siberia, I remember my wife one day wearing a V-kneck shirt when she was tying her shoes on the couch. I sat across from her and got a view that was just short of being glorious. For months I was only admiring her beauty with her clothes on and was happy just to get a kiss now and then (and only after I approached her for it), then lo and behold, she bends down and I catch a glimpse of something denied to me, her husband. Try asking me what fidelity meant to me back then.

Aside from the fact that some men are jerks and some are perverts, there are many men who wish to remain faithful to their wives, who would never think of running out the door for another woman, who keep hoping or praying that everything will get better in the near(?) future. But it doesn't. Marriage, which sometimes does involve sex, suffers. In many cases, it dies before a man turns to porn and masturbation. But culture and society wants us to believe that it can never be the wife's fault. This would be an act of political incorrectness.

One poster does lament how her husband's addiction to porn has torn him away from her. This is unfortunate. Either he is stupid (giving up the real thing for something imaginary) or he cannot tell the difference between reality and fiction, between love and porn. He is the true addict.

I believe variety has much to do with men's love of porn. And when it comes to variety I don't think age and looks are really that important, especially in the real world. I think that if every woman here just passed her husband along to the woman who posted right after her, say for a weekend, then everyone, including then men involved would probably find sex to be a lot of fun again.

Give me a break! Jake. What a big steaming pile of Sh-t!

JAKE: So what.. you were bored and stumbled upon this site and decided to spout off your nonsense? My suggestion is to grow up a little before you decide to post. There are REAL people here suffering from real issues. Jerk.
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ilivin and Hopefull- I'm loving your posts.

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Originally Posted by Experienced

I don't know exactly where I should have put what I have to say into this thread, however I will tell all of you women to stick with it, you will eventually learn that just because your husband looks at other women does not mean that he will see you as being any less attractive, I have surveyed tons of my male friends on whether or not they would ever leave their girlfriend for a porn star or stripper, and if you want to hear something really funny, they all said no, that they thought that they were all whores; that they would not want thier girlfriends or wives or fiances to be anything like them.

So right, Experienced. Many of us already know that though. I have never once considered something so ridiculous in my life and I feel terrible for those who do. I really didn't see that in any of the women here though.
All of this porn messing up marriages is not about our husbands looking at other women, it's about the intimacy being taken away from some, it's about the consistent lying and manipulation, about the wives feelings not of inadequacy but of heartbreak.

Sure men look at women and women look at men or other women! Sure we've all masturbated with our vibes! Listen to the women here though. I don't believe that they think any of this. They are intelligent, loving, attractive women! Sticking his penis into your vagina?? What a terrible way to put it. Sex means more to me than that. It's special between my husband and I. I think that is why we have sex so often. I love sex with him because it means that we are getting close and being intmate- expressing our love.
He's not tired of our lovemaking style, where we make love, what I wear when we do it... etc. It's not about that, nor will it ever be. It's about something deeper. Thank goodness we found out what it was. Many of these ladies haven't yet.
It's not about jealousy for most either. I actually WORKED in porn. I have never had a problem with porn. We were even considering getting into it as models.

When I worked in porn I watched it daily, I watched it for masturbation use when I was single. I watched it in one relationship that I wasn't getting my needs met. It had very little to do with the person that I was with. That's why I think that it is not always about masturbation either. It's about something deeper.
Think logically? Like we weren't doing so already? Please don't presume to know what any of us are feeling, or thinking.

You are trying to be helpful Experienced but I doubt if that last bit about roleplaying and Valentines Day will help anyone. That sounds rude and I don't mean it to be but it kind of pissed me off. If you consider what you're saying you'll realise that sex toys, blow jobs, anal sex, playing nursie and screwing in the pool aren't going to change these men watching their porn. It wouldn't have changed me.

Things were always exciting in my bedroom, bathroom, livingroom, kitchen.. pool. All of the sex toys (we have a ton) the beauty, the brains, the different ways in which I pleasured my man, doing any fantasies he'd like roleplaying.. bondage .. etcetera did not keep mine away from his habit. It doens't always help in MOST of these cases. Again, it's not about that. It for us was about some underlying issue- his molestation from another male/watching anal sex porn. He will undergo counselling to help him over that at his request. I've never tried to force him not to watch porn. It's his decision. He wanted better for himself in our relationship and hated me to be in pain.. didn't realise I was until we truly communicated.
This is not to say that everyone will have the same issue but his was relatively easy to discern once we really communicated better than ever.

UPDATE!! I haven't been here in a while - since January 6th. I wanted to see how everyone was and give an update.

My husband hasn't looked at any porn in I guess two months- since before my last post. They keylogger shows nothing, he tells me he hasn't felt the same need to since our talk of his molestation. We still await a counsellor. I imagine we'll be waiting a while longer for them to call us.

So for the most part, we've been intimate daily. The other times we have not have had to do with me having some female issues (ovaries cysts) and we have had to stop making love these few times.
I still feel that I am taking time to trust. The trust takes a long time to get back. Thing is I suppose I haven't had it for quite some time, so I'm remembering that and giving myself time.
Our vulnerability has really saved us so far. We're more open than ever in our communication. I only hope that it stays this way!

Lovey,

Wow! I enjoyed your post. I would like to comment on the above lines for starts if I may?

"All of this porn messing up marriages is not about our husbands looking at other women, it's about the intimacy being taken away from some, it's about the consistent lying and manipulation, about the wives feelings not of inadequacy but of heartbreak."

Window shopping will always be, so it seems. I think you hit the nail on the head with the points you made. But may I ask this: I always loved my darling wife since we met twenty-two years ago when we were both just nineteen. From the day I met her, I fell in love. I just knew that this girl was going to be my wife someday. When we began really dating, we were really intimate. There were no lies or manipulation; we just loved to be together. It wasn't about the boobs either - since she was almost flat chested; and it wasn't about her figure - since she was a bit curvacious; it was simply about adoring her. I never wanted to lie to her or manipulate her or make her feel inadequate, but after she had children, the distance betwen us grew daily. Though she gained some weight, I still loved her. I still wanted to make love to her and do things for her and make her smile and laugh. I still sent her flowers at work for no reason at all except to remind her that I think of her. Yet, what started as a close and loving relationship, which was celebrated with all types of sex frequently, began to fade. As my love grew for her as well as my respect, it was I who requested that she no longer perform oral sex on me. I felt like I was being unfair. No sooner did she stop performing oral sex, she began to reduce the frequency of handjobs. Then conventional intercourse began to dwindle in frequency. Then I was no longe able to touch her between the legs. Eventually, she began to prevent me from holding and playing with her breasts. Now, it just resorts to kissing and hugging. I don't mind because I love to hold her, including holding her hands. But the sensual aspect of our marriage faded into a blank page. Sex, if any, is weeks, if not months, apart and only then can I enjoy her breasts, but only during foreplay. Though sex has been taken away from our relationship, almost to a point that our love life has almost been declared 'bed dead,' there seems to be very few replacements to fill the void; no intimacy, no attempt on her part to convey any aspect of love to me, and certainly no desire to consider our current state of affairs as being in trouble. I have been faithful in the sense of not encouraging extra-marital relationships with other women. My only fault is that my habit of masturbation, which was earlier on an infrequent activity, began to increase in practice over the years. Later, with the advent of Internet porn, my problem went further downhill. My idea of relationship DID dwindle to nothing but sex. But when everything else in a marriage has been removed - and I am not just talking about sexuality, I am talking mostly about intimacy, which may, I repeat, include some forms of marital play. One of the biggest obstacles to us having time for each other are the children. They are always around us until we are getting ready for bed ourselves. At times, they seem so intrusive into our special relationship as husband and wife. We both love them dearly, but it has become a major factor in driving a wedge between us. In the meantime, the intimacy you speak about as being taken away, IS taken away, but not always from me (husband) getting off elsewhere first. There is a void in my life, and I would state that that void is not just lack of sex, but instead, lack of intimacy. I cannot remember the last time my wife initiated anything intimate, sensual, or sexual. If I didn't kiss her good morning, or goodbye, or hello, or goodnight, then I wouldn't even get that. How does a husband deal with loss of intimacy without turning to extra-marital affairs or divorce?


"I actually WORKED in porn."

I always wondered why women would work in porn. I don't want to pry into your personal livelihood, but I always questioned what it was that led a woman to become just an image? There are a lot of beautiful women working in porn, both professional and amateur. At times I sense a degree of weariness in their eyes and face as if they still deep in their heart don't want to be there. Am I right?


"My husband hasn't looked at any porn in I guess two months- since before my last post. They keylogger shows nothing, he tells me he hasn't felt the same need to since our talk of his molestation. We still await a counsellor. I imagine we'll be waiting a while longer for them to call us."

Molestation? I think if every porn addict is questioned about his (or her) addiction and its primal causes, there would be something in the past that led them there. My case was extreme shyness around girls, low self-esteem in that I figured out early on in my life that no woman would be attracted to me or would want me for herself, and a highly visual (and artistic) taste and imagination. Just when I was getting old enough to ask girls out on dates, I was introduced to porn (magazine variety). That simple introduction triggered something in me. I became a porn addict at an early age, often masturbating one or two times a day. There were days when I was in high school and college when I masturbated five times a day. My shyness was still extreme and holding me back from developing female friendships. Instead of working at it, I took the easy road and found relief in porn or just masturbating without it. Something as simple as seeing a nice looking girl with a pretty face (it didn't always have to be about the boobs) triggered my anxiety and I had to relieve myself at the first chance I got. This habit faded greatly when I met my wife. Just like that my desire to find pleasure in porn and/or masturbating decreased almost to the point of disappearing. There were actually a year here and there in our marriage when I didn't masturbate or look at porn. Once, I abstained from such in order to focus on loving my wife more. She still ignored me and our sex lives were miserable. Then, one day, I announced to her that I went a whole year without masturbating or looking at porn. She blew me off and couldn't care less that I was trying. I lost it and went back to porn and masturbating. She says that it is not nice for a girl to initiate romance or sex, so I try, but only to get yelled at and accused of having my mind only on one thing. Is it wrong to have such attractions for one's wife that he wants to get inimate with her? I believe that my life would have been different if I wasn't chronically shy in the past. I might have been open to other women without latching onto one so soon when I did. I don't like to do porn; I want to get intimate and have sex with my darling wife.


"Our vulnerability has really saved us so far. We're more open than ever in our communication. I only hope that it stays this way!"

But communication is difficult at times, especially when the husband is always considered wrong - even to the point that sex between us has been considered a lite form of rape. Here is my beef: if sex with my wife is considered a form of rape, then I should probably consider dumping her. At this point in my life, she can have the house, half the money, and the children (though I love them dearly). I can't focus on other things like I want to and I can't even enjoy non-sexual intimacies with my wife. Communication sucks. Every time I bring this topic up with my wife, we argue and she gets more pissed off with me. I, in turn, depart with more feelings of inadequacy. I feel like a sexual pervert for wanting to love my wife.

Any comments or advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

Hopeful

"ilivin and Hopefull- I'm loving your posts. "

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Lovey,

Thank you. There is so much turmoil built up inside regarding my personal faults and addictions. It is nice to know that someone takes ear.

I hope all will get well with your hubby. Please, be patient and careful with him. Trust is always more difficult to RE-build than to initially build. But if trust is being RE-built, there are no fake facades this time. Both of you are probably more wised up this time around. There can be some real serious relationship renovations going on and the new and improved can be much more livable and lovable. A wife or girlfriend who knows how to listen to her lover and doesn't first consider him or write him off as a mere pervert is a true woman to admire. Men need others, especially women, to hear them out. As I stated in my previous post, after one year of going clean without masturbating or looking at porn (OK, maybe a little in passing, but nothing that actually triggered a relapse into self-play), it hurt very much to have my personal triumph blown off so lightly. It is good to hear that he got a few things off his chest (i.e., the molestation). You are, indeed, a beautiful (and strong) woman. Your husband must also think so.

I also hope that all will get well with you (re: ovarian cysts). You must take special care of yourself. I know how such things can be testing at times. My dear wife endured having uteran fibroids the size of golfballs without us knowing for some time. Her uterus ended up being a bag of marbles which naturally prevented her from having more children. It is always good for women to get a good checkup to catch such things early on.

One bit of advice to wives or girlfriends: never underestimate the value of having your love massage your breasts. Sure, he is enjoying your natural endowments, but I know at least three wives who had lumps detected there simply because their husbands, who know their wives breasts very well, found them - even AFTER their wives had breast exams! Again, I hope things improve with your health.

Hopeful

anyone who feels they or there partner have an unhealthy or unnatural sex drive may care to refer to www.sa.org .
a simple checklist of questions will detect your fears .

James: I've been looking for some support for my SA but being a non believer I am totally turned off by all the 12 step programs. Any idea if there are similar such programs without all the higher power stuff? Thanks.

Originally Posted by Paul

Any idea if there are similar such programs without all the higher power stuff?

Paul,

You can always rely on yourself and not go any further than that. But if you are like me, self-reliance can become a problem in its own right.

I used to volunteer at a hospital visiting patients. Many physicians in that field were very helpful in letting religion play a role in healing. Many patients who relied on the higher power stuff recovered at a faster rate than those who waited for self-inspiration.

You can still do what you want. Good luck.

Hopeful

I can't tear myself away from this place!!

Hopeful, I've got so much to talk with you about! I loved reading your post and read parts of it to my husband.

This was the first time I allowed my husband to read this site a little. I've been keeping it to myself (he knew about it but I asked that I have privacy with it for now) and now I'm feeling good about him reading it!

How does a husband deal with loss of intimacy without turning to extra-marital affairs or divorce?

By asking for advice as you're doing. I think that you're a wonderful man. I admire what you've done to get back that intimacy with your wife. I was reading your story with tears in my eyes. I'm cheering you on even though you might feel all is lost.
Hmm your respect for your wife and you not wanting her to perform fellatio on you was interesting to me. I wondered what you think about this: Is it possible that she really felt close to you while she was pleasuring you and when you took that away she felt either lazy in her lovemaking or less intimate with you?
Her pulling away from you by not giving you handjobs, not allowing breast caressing or to be touched between the legs all sound like what I went through for a few days with my husband. When I lost trust and respect for my husband, the intimacy was lost. It didn't feel good anymore to have him touch and caress me lovingly as it did. It confused and upset me. I read a lot and did a lot of thinking and realised that I had a lot of work to do. I had to allow him back into my bed all the way. We were having sex but it wasn't as sensual. I was hiding my breasts, etc. I had to learn to trust and repeat in my head how much he loved me and how much I loved him. This has been a mantra whenever my trust goes a little. It seems to work but is of course not something that is easy every time we make love. I'm always trying and learning.
Is it possible that your wife feels something like I do? Do you think that with some talking and some counselling that you both can be that open to try new things in order to regain intimacy? I know it is all about trust now.

I wondered why women would work in porn. At times I sense a degree of weariness in their eyes and face as if they still deep in their heart don't want to be there. Am I right?

I don't know why they all do it. I worked in the back end of things. I did not model ever. I have only modeled with clothes on- tastefully for clothing stores! I agree that deep in some of their hearts they'd rather be somewhere else, but then I've met some who have a lowered self esteem and need that continuous adoration.

She still ignored me and our sex lives were miserable. Then, one day, I announced to her that I went a whole year without masturbating or looking at porn. She blew me off and couldn't care less that I was trying. I lost it and went back to porn and masturbating. She says that it is not nice for a girl to initiate romance or sex, so I try, but only to get yelled at and accused of having my mind only on one thing. Is it wrong to have such attractions for one's wife that he wants to get inimate with her? I believe that my life would have been different if I wasn't chronically shy in the past. I might have been open to other women without latching onto one so soon when I did. I don't like to do porn; I want to get intimate and have sex with my darling wife.

I'm so sorry that she blew you off like that. Possibly it scared her or she didn't trust that it was true. I can see how you'd go back to the porn and masturbating. That must have hurt you. You should be proud of stopping. The odd setback shouldn't be the end either. I'm learning that.
I wonder if at this point when you told her you'd stopped that the timing was off, and she wasn't ready to listen to it, even though it was good news. It sounds as though she resents you. She may be hurt because of your past use of porn. I don't know. You being shy certainly has something to do with the porn.
For my husband it was anal sex mostly, and his molestation was with a man, so it was easy to figure.
I believe you can go one of a few ways. You can do all you can to help someone or let the sex life go. I was never willing to do that, I think because it was still so new and we were still making love daily. I caught it at the right time for us.
It sounds as though your wife feels that the man should be the one to initiate sex and I'm thinking that it is due to her upbringing and her age.. same thing I suppose. When some women are taught to be good girls it's hard to branch out of that and feel like a lady still while having sex with her husband!
Were you both virgins when you got together? That makes a lot of difference I believe.

But communication is difficult at times, especially when the husband is always considered wrong - even to the point that sex between us has been considered a lite form of rape. Here is my beef: if sex with my wife is considered a form of rape, then I should probably consider dumping her. At this point in my life, she can have the house, half the money, and the children (though I love them dearly). I can't focus on other things like I want to and I can't even enjoy non-sexual intimacies with my wife. Communication sucks. Every time I bring this topic up with my wife, we argue and she gets more pissed off with me. I, in turn, depart with more feelings of inadequacy. I feel like a sexual pervert for wanting to love my wife.

You sound so down, dejected. You sound like I did a few months ago. I was lost and didn't see how things would get better. I thought that we'd divorce and we even talked about it. If you want that then there is nothing to talk about but somehow I think you want her and the marriage, kids and the house..(Your name and the fact that you're here says it all.) It's depressing not to be able to get your point across. You're not a pervert, Hopeful. Neither is my husband. I don't think that porn is evil - I just think that it can bring about a world full of problems in a monogamous relationship at times.
I know that you've talked to her a thousand times. All I can tell you is what my sweetie and I do. We go to a room together, not the bedroom, and sit down facing each other. I tell him what I'm thinking, no matter how silly it is. I ask him to let me tell him how I feel and not talk. He knows that it's my thoughts and that it's not against him. He then tells me his feelings. We both try to consider each other's views, but the best thing we've learned is to place yourself in the other's shoes. Thinking of how the other person would feel seems to have helped us through our issue. When I have to tell sweetie that I'm angry, I tell him that I love him. I say that I am angry and need to understand him. It opens up something for us.
Counselling will help even further.

I hope all will get well with your hubby. Please, be patient and careful with him. Trust is always more difficult to RE-build than to initially build.

Thanks so much. I hope so too! I am patient and careful always as much as I can. I try hard to trust. It works often. Remembering our love helps me trust in him. He also knows that a setback doesn't mean I'm out of here! It only means we continue to work at it. I try to listen to what he has to say.

As I stated in my previous post, after one year of going clean without masturbating or looking at porn (OK, maybe a little in passing, but nothing that actually triggered a relapse into self-play), it hurt very much to have my personal triumph blown off so lightly. It is good to hear that he got a few things off his chest (i.e., the molestation). You are, indeed, a beautiful (and strong) woman. Your husband must also think so.

You need that support from her. I believe that it's the only way to change things. I know that without my support my husband would still be stuck watching it and I'd be resentful.
I wanted him to get all he could off his chest. It was very emotional and almost exciting in a way- only because I knew it meant progress.
Thank you so much for your kind words that again make my tears come. My husband does think I am strong and beautiful. You saying that makes me feel supported too. It's nice to be able to talk with people about this and not have them look down at you!

My dear wife endured having uteran fibroids the size of golfballs without us knowing for some time.

Oh no your poor wife. Can I ask what treatment she received for them? I think it is either that or endometriosis. I am having another period. It is way too soon too. I should be ovulating right now. It's okay though. We're still intimate daily and doing other things to satisfy one another, thankfully.

“Hopeful, I've got so much to talk with you about! I loved reading your post and read parts of it to my husband.”

Lovey,

I appreciate your kind words. And I want to especially express my gratitude for you taking the time to respond to my posts. It is always good to find a person with ears as big as their heart. I personally believe that our Western culture, which can be so puritan-like at times, is so hard up on the exchange of ideas and sharing of experiences between people in regards to such topics as masturbation and porn in the context of marriage. The hush-hush days permitted sexual abusers to have a field day. I find it wonderful that Internet forums don’t always have to be a place to defend one’s opinion(s) to the death with flame throwing and antagonism. I am always willing to listen to a woman’s point of view. I value such things because I am not the only one experiencing troubling emotions and personal addictions. At times, I have become a listening ear. Most of my neighbors are divorced women with children. It was interesting how many bared their souls to me simply because I was a guy. At first, I wasn’t prepared for such counseling, however passive. But I learned that the best I could do was to simply listen. I wish to thank you for listening.

“Hmm your respect for your wife and you not wanting her to perform fellatio on you was interesting to me. I wondered what you think about this: Is it possible that she really felt close to you while she was pleasuring you and when you took that away she felt either lazy in her lovemaking or less intimate with you?”

This was, indeed, a decision that I later regretted; not because I no longer enjoy one of the most intense forms of sexual arousal and relief, but because it seemed to trigger an unwarranted and uninvited backlash. You might have hit another nail on the head by stating that her pleasuring me this way made her feel close to me. I remember when I first asked her to perform fellatio; I don’t remember why, but there was this deep felt need for it at the time (we were still dating). I believe we began this when we decided to postpone intercourse until after we got married – even though serious plans (or a proposal given her) wasn’t yet on the table for discussion. Marriage was still in dreamland. We wanted to share very intimate moments together and one of them became fellatio. Though I performed cunningulus on her several times, she really wasn’t into being on the receiving end. I didn’t want all the focus, so I made sure I manually satisfied her prior to her performing fellatio. Of course, this was another treat I miss. But I felt that fellatio was somehow taking away our love, that I was being selfish – even though my wife never complained! How stupid can a guy get? I never thought to ask if my request to stop was interpreted in a negative way? I probably did convince her that she was no longer sexually satisfying, especially after experiencing a number of years of treats from my honey. Every time I asked her for it she obliged. Yes, I can remember fondly those long drives in family car across the county to visit family or friends and having wife’s head on my lap. How I managed to keep the car on the road was a miracle.

‘’When I lost trust and respect for my husband, the intimacy was lost. It didn't feel good anymore to have him touch and caress me lovingly as it did. It confused and upset me.”

Ditto. It is a shame when husbands, including me, give any amount of reason for our wives to mistrust us. The fact that I have not started a ‘real’ marital affair doesn’t appease her in the least. The images that I enjoyed staring at while relieving myself were to her a real threat. I never quite understood how much of an affect my using porn had on her, especially her sense of respect and/or esteem. Men don’t seem to quite get it about those things. Being ‘faithful’ no longer can be taken in the minimalist sense. Wives DO want to know that they are the prime and sole source of sensual and sexual satisfaction to their husbands. But here is the problem in the relationship game called love: men really never grow up or grow out of their attraction to the female form and I think once they get addicted to porn or to masturbation (or both), it is a hard case to solve. Old men look at women probably the same way they did when they were fifteen. Excitement eventually leads to an erection. What else is there? But back to the trust issue you mention and how it relatest to being intimate. It seems that anything can go as long as trust is present. I could have never imagined in my wildest dreams the pleasures that awaited me after first meeting my wife. At first glance, she seemed the real nice girl who would never even think such things as fellatio and the like. She really taught me a lesson or two!

“I read a lot and did a lot of thinking and realised that I had a lot of work to do. I had to allow him back into my bed all the way. We were having sex but it wasn't as sensual. I was hiding my breasts, etc.”

Your allowing your husband back into your bed all the way was a bold and mighty big step for it invited the marital relationship to continue. Wonderful! When the fire dims to almost being extinguished, you fueled the flames so both of your won’t end up freezing. You were so kind to him. Getting caught with porn usually got me four to five months of cold bed. I sometimes thought, however erroneously, that if my wife knew I was looking at porn, she would realize what might be missing in her husband's life. Even dirty jokes don't amuse her anymore. Anything sexual turns her off. I am beginning to think that it isn't really about me. Can this be solely attributed to low self-esteem?

“Is it possible that your wife feels something like I do? Do you think that with some talking and some counselling that you both can be that open to try new things in order to regain intimacy?”

I haven’t yet proposed the idea of having a third party involved in our mutual turmoil. We still have sex occasionally and we are on speaking terms. Its just that her ‘desire’ is absent. I personally would welcome anything. What were your concerns and worries about going to a third party?

“I'm so sorry that she blew you off like that. Possibly it scared her or she didn't trust that it was true. I can see how you'd go back to the porn and masturbating. That must have hurt you. You should be proud of stopping.”

To quote Mark Twain – but not about smoking – to stop masturbating is easy; I did it at least two hundred times. But seriously, I could guess that she just didn’t believe me or even wondered why “I” thought it was a proud moment. I knew it could be done; that was it. What became almost a daily practice since my early teen years was finally checked – at least for one full year. I remember finally giving up when she blew me off and I was much angered with her. I did it for the first time (I was in the doghouse that night – actually in another room self-exiled from our … err, her bed) not because I was looking at porn or dreaming, but because I was angry with her, especially her flippant response to my grand announcement. I never felt so embarrassed before in my life. After I masturbated, I cried myself to sleep. At one point in our marriage I felt like I was on top of the world. Then I felt like a bad little monkey playing with himself. Both my announcement and my request to stop performing fellatio seemed to actually turn her off.

“You being shy certainly has something to do with the porn.”

My shyness has always been a thorn in my side. My wife is so outgoing and social, and I am so inward and reclusive. What she saw in me when we first got to know each other is beyond me. I past up many potential relationships with girls over the years. Two of the most miserable realizations that I had to accept was first learning that one of the hottest girls in high school actually had it for me (and I ignored her every chance I got because I was too shy) and, second, to learn that one of the ugly ducklings in school, who I was also too shy to socialize with (she was so smart with high grades, I felt mentally inadequate), ended up being a real doll later in life. Read: missed opportunities. Culprit: shyness. Punishment: self-inflicting bouts of masturbation and lack of real relationships. Why do you think some guys are really shy about girls? Do you think girls or older women make it difficult for men to relate to them? Or do you think that such difficulty is only perceived in the mind of the shy guy? But your question about shyness and porn … Yes, I think shyness can convince a man to find solace in porn because there are needs to be met, however real or perceived, and a man will meet them one way or another. Porn makes that decision relatively easy and accessible. One no longer has to daydream or let the imagination go wild what is under some gal’s blouse or skirt; he has to simply do a quick search on the Net and find almost an unlimited source of images, images of women he could only dream of seeing naked. Though a man may enjoy himself by masturbating while admiring such images only intensifies the act. As long as there is an orgasm, he accomplished what sex is ultimately oriented to. However, that there is no real relationship there cannot, unfortunately, be considered necessary.

“Were you both virgins when you got together?”

Yes.

“You sound so down, dejected. You sound like I did a few months ago. I was lost and didn't see how things would get better.”

I feel like a man-in-waiting. But my greatest fear is someday loosing the ability to get it up in order to actually have sex with my wife when she does recover. I somewhat envy those men and women who state they have sex at least twice a week. I know that the number of times doesn’t make the marriage or relationship, but frequency of sex and the close intimacy that it brings along DOES help keep the fire burning.

“It's depressing not to be able to get your point across. You're not a pervert, Hopeful. Neither is my husband.”

Thank you. And I would imagine that your husband thinks well of you not labeling him.

“We both try to consider each other's views, but the best thing we've learned is to place yourself in the other's shoes. Thinking of how the other person would feel seems to have helped us through our issue. When I have to tell sweetie that I'm angry, I tell him that I love him. I say that I am angry and need to understand him. It opens up something for us.”

At least both of you are talking. This is good. After a few nasty arguments, my wife did calm down to have it out with me (verbally, that is). Our arguments eventually turned into much calmer discussions when the other person was totally free to express his or her thoughts without ridicule. But these are rare. How do you go about suggesting another time out for talk? Who requests it? Who keeps it going? How do you know when the talk is over? My questions might seem dense, but I am interested in ground rules. I would love to have a sit down talk with my wife regarding last week’s performance. Feedback these days is lousy, and I only learn how much of a problem I am.

“You need that support from her. I believe that it's the only way to change things. I know that without my support my husband would still be stuck watching it and I'd be resentful.
I wanted him to get all he could off his chest. It was very emotional and almost exciting in a way- only because I knew it meant progress.”

I am glad you can look at the progress and get excited. I read one of the recommended links on how counselors initiate dealing with the problem of masturbation and porn. I was interested in how the wife was invited to attend the sessions, especially when the husband is asked to go back to the earliest time they were introduced to porn. This can put things in perspective because little boys are just as vulnerable as little girls. Boys have bad experiences too. I believe that if my wife did the same, things might be different. I opted for porn and masturbation at an early age, thus feeling like I got sidetracked from a more mature growth of my sexuality and relationship-building skills with the opposite gender. I look back and do recognize how my wife challenged me and coached me to become a better man (and lover). But that was before she learned of my addiction. Like I stated before, after I met my wife and began dating her, my addiction to porn and frequency of masturbation dropped considerably, if almost altogether. I had no need for it, and there were more hormones flowing back then than today.

“It's nice to be able to talk with people about this and not have them look down at you!”

It is almost therapeutic posting on this forum. I can’t remember how I came across it. But I like posting and reading the posts from others, including yours. Like I said, we haven’t yet brought our problems to a third-party, but maybe that might end up happening. It is obvious that your own experience has taught you to be more tolerant.

“Oh no your poor wife. Can I ask what treatment she received for them? I think it is either that or endometriosis. I am having another period. It is way too soon too. I should be ovulating right now. It's okay though. We're still intimate daily and doing other things to satisfy one another, thankfull.”

My wife has to take medication to regulate her monthly cycle. She was at one time having two periods per month. But with a uterus full of fibroids, her system was all screwed up. I think such medical problems have also contributed to her having low self-esteem. She might feel that her body is done and over with, and how can anyone, including her husband, consider making love with it. Her mood swings have also gotten worse over the years. When we were first married, it was difficult to use her mood to determine her bodily happenings. Now, when her evil twin shows up, we both get slapped around pretty good.

Hopeful