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Old 26th July 2014, 01:01 PM   #31
Raymond
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

Just seeing what happens doesn't give much hope. Marriages need work sometimes. If he is not going to do his bit it just won't work. One cannot force marriage counseling but that does seem to be the way forward here.

Sounds to me like an avoidant. These are people who didn't get love as a child and so went it alone and somehow shut down from relational intimacy. Some of them are good at business but are afraid of relational intimacy.
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Old 26th July 2014, 07:26 PM   #32
chosen
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Just seeing what happens doesn't give much hope. Marriages need work sometimes. If he is not going to do his bit it just won't work. One cannot force marriage counseling but that does seem to be the way forward here.

Sounds to me like an avoidant. These are people who didn't get love as a child and so went it alone and somehow shut down from relational intimacy. Some of them are good at business but are afraid of relational intimacy.
I actually think a lot of men are like that Raymond, no matter what their childhoods were like.
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Old 28th July 2014, 08:56 AM   #33
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

In certain situations one can trace behaviour from what happened in childhood. Particularly the relationship with Mother and Father.There are no perfect families and inevitably we are all broken to some extent. Some worse than others though. The good thing is that it can be fixed and we can change if we really want to. Where that desire is not there inevitably damage is done to ourselves and also to others, particularly our spouses and also children.
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Old 28th July 2014, 10:37 AM   #34
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

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Sounds to me like an avoidant. These are people who didn't get love as a child and so went it alone and somehow shut down from relational intimacy. Some of them are good at business but are afraid of relational intimacy.

Wow. This is so spot on. There are major family issues between him and his parents, which none of them ever talk about - they used to beat him and treat him differently to his younger siblings (he was the result of an unexpected teenage pregnancy). He definitely feels they didn't love or care for him as a child, which I think is what drew him to me - my family are very loving and caring, so when we started seeing each other, he experience love and support that he'd never known before. I think that was part of the issue when my son arrived - he was no longer the focus of my attention. One of his hangups has always been, if I ask him to change (communicate more, for example) he will say, why does nobody love and accept me for who I am? That's such a major hurdle to overcome - asking for something you need, triggers the feeling of inadequacy.

I took your advice and just booked a counselling session - I told him about it and he's agreed to come. Does anyone have any advice on how to get the most out of our session? Or what I should expect? I'm really worried that if I'm too negative about what needs to happen to get us back on track, he'll disengage and will retreat into his shell.

He said his reason for going is to work out if what he feels right now is the fear of our relationship ending or if there's something still left to fight for (which is why I started this post!!). For me, I want to try and see if the person I love is still there. He's changed so much since we had our son, that I feel like I don't know him. He used to make me feel I was #1, special and he'd always be there - I don't feel any of those things anymore. I want to know whether it's hurt and defenses that keep us apart or have we drifted so far apart, that he no longer hold me in that regard.
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Old 28th July 2014, 03:53 PM   #35
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

I wouldnt worry about what you need to do at the counselling session, the counselor will guide the session and the first one will probably be just you getting to know them and they you and a basic understanding of the state of he marriage right now. I am sure that you will need a fairly long period of counselling to help you.
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:39 AM   #36
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

It is good that he is at least attending the counseling Always.

It does sound as if he was damaged in childhood. I was myself has it happens. When one doesn't get the nurture emotional stunting can happen even though one may be good in other areas. To be rounded though we need to develop emotionally and intellectually. It is not his fault that it happened but how one deals with it is important. He likely feels rejection even when you love him. It is kind of inbuilt, a kind of self rejection. Nobody can really love me for who I am. In some cases they will reject someone before they can reject him. He won't be reasoning this out but it will be like a tape running in his subconcious because of what he was fed as a child.

He has found some kind of acceptance through his work and probably leans on that too much because of it but he will never be fully rounded just through that. Over compensating in one area doesn't cure the other. These types can be vulnerable to addictions sometimes. Maybe work is.

Why can't people love me for who I am speaks volumes. He will be well aware of his shortcomings but love will have to start by accepting him as he is. He will be craving that underneath. Once he is secure in that love emotional growth can happen but it has to happen in him and come from him. Part of the battle will be convincing him of your love as it is so difficult for these types to believe it.
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Old 29th July 2014, 10:03 AM   #37
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

You describe him to a tee. I have often thought that he feels much more comfortable at work than he does at home. He calls himself a family man and while I know he loves us, he is far from comfortable being apart of our family. He struggles to be apart of things and it's always me having to involve him or he would be content simply being present, rather than included. I find it very draining. I understand they psychology of it but living with it is a different thing all together.

I do love him for who he is but the ugly truth is, who he is needs to change because it's not fulfilling for either of us. No matter how much I invest, as soon as I say I'd like something, he takes it as a criticism - it makes him feel inadequate. He has an amazing heart and when he lets you in, you know how special you are but more of the time now, he keeps me at arms reach and is solely focused on work.

I invited him to come and view new nurseries, he declined as he had to work. I asked if he'd like to go birthday shopping for our son, he declined as he will be at work. It doesn't seem to bother him that he misses out on these parts of being a parent and it certainly doesn't occur to him to take a day off!

I don't know how to make him see I love him. I don't know what I can do to break the cycle. He declined a holiday, we only ever had a date night if I arranged it. I look after him/I step back and stop looking after him. I do nice things/I stop doing nice things. I try and talk about his day/I stop pushing him to talk if he doesn't want to. I mean, I feel like I've tried it all. Maybe I'll never get through to him...
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Old 29th July 2014, 01:19 PM   #38
Raymond
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

Although he will be secure in his work because he can do it he will still have this problem underneath. Sounds like he is super sensitive to criticism because he is not secure in who he is. It must be really hard for you to handle. There is a part of him that has never learned to relate in an intimate way. Not talking about sex here which is something else.

He will be happy to string along with you probably provided that the lack of emotional intimacy is not highlighted too much. He knows he lacks on that level and wants to be accepted as he is. Not because he is cold but because he never learned it in his childhood. He is heading for a crash eventually if he is relying on work as his security. Life will throw up a crisis where he will be forced to get help.

I would expect he is separating not because he doesn't love you but because he feels a failure inwardly in the marriage area and knows it. The more you highlight it the more painful he will feel his lack.

Deep down he will want to learn but it has to be little by little. What feels little to you may be too much for him. These childhood wounds go very deep and take a lot of healing. Some are never healed because they maintain the fascade of independence and say to themselves they don't need anyone, probably because it is too painful. Close relationship makes them aware of their lack which can be painful for them. Where he stands I don't know. It's choices really.
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Old 30th July 2014, 06:40 AM   #39
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

Today is the day we go to counselling. As the day passed yesterday, I found myself feeling increasingly negative about the whole thing. It suddenly dawned on me, that despite my reassurance that I want our relationship to work and upping my effort to show him I'm thinking about him etc., he has done nothing. I get the same text at 6:15pm to ask how my son got on at nursery and then nothing more. I understand everything you are saying Raymond, I really do - it's the sort of thing I've been telling myself for our whole relationship but what if he just doesn't care? He has this amazing (unpleasant) ability to just shut people out and switches off his feelings. He's giving me nothing and to be honest, I've woken up feeling that I deserve considerably more that NOTHING.

I don't want to go into the session negative but maybe I've got my head in the sand. Maybe he is who he is and he doesn't want me anymore. I feel so sad - I feel like I've tried to be positive, tried to keep things together and am making positive steps but I'm on my own - all I have to hold onto is that he agreed to come to a counselling session which I booked and paid for. Let's say he still loves me - why does he never call me? Never text to say he's thinking about me, never just want to say hi. I just can't understand how he can just walk out and treat me like I don't exist, like I'm nothing more than a voice to relay our son's day.
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Old 30th July 2014, 08:33 AM   #40
Raymond
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

The counseling is today Always and you must give it your best shot. I would put out of your mind for now about the same text etc. and try to go into the session with an open mind. My wife and I have prayed that there will be insights that come out of this.

His style obviously doesn't fit your expectancies and there are reasons for it within him that are not your fault. Try and set this aside putting the nagatives on the back burner for now. Even with a bad childhood and a rejection complex one still has freewill and choices and it is up to him to make the right choices within his limitations. Once one sees it we don't have to let the bad things in our childhood rule us. Let us know how you get on.

Last edited by Raymond; 30th July 2014 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 30th July 2014, 11:50 PM   #41
alwaysl8
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

I'm not sure what I was expecting but tonight was not it! I woke feeling very negative and anxious but did my best to push my concerns aside and get on with my day. I was obviously not alone because around mid-morning, my husband text to say he was in a really bad mood and felt the day was a right off. I sent him a picture of our family and said I hoped that cheered him up...somehow, he managed to use that and turn it into an argument, which resulted in him saying he didn't think anything productive would come of our counselling session, so wouldn't be coming. To say I was disappointed would be an understatement but instead of reacting, I just replied to say my commitment to try wasn't dependent on his mood, so I would still be going.

Fast forward to 7pm and just as I'm about to walk in, he turns up. It was so uncomfortable; he sat like a sulking child. When the counsellor challenged him on a point, he felt she was taking my side and then crossed his arms and said clearly he's wrong then and stopped talking! It was only an introduction, so I guess it wasn't a 'proper' session but it certainly didn't meet my expectations. Like I say, it was an introduction, so maybe that's why but I thought she might enlighten us a little more, make some suggestions on things we could try over the next week - something!!

He text me once I got home to say he didn't think it was helpful...I'm inclined to agree but I tried to be positive and just say it was our first session, he wasn't in the best of moods and I'm sure it will improve once we're in the swing of it. Was that the truth or did I lie? Could it be that we're beyond help? Maybe the lady we met with wasn't the right fit for us? How do I know if it was her or us??!

I wasn't expecting to see or feel a change in our relationship, in fact, I expected to come away feeling pretty rubbish and drained but instead, I left disappointed and flat...
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Old 31st July 2014, 12:02 AM   #42
chosen
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

You have to give it time. Counseling takes ages and the first couple of sessions are usually for her or him to get to know you both and what is happening. To be honest he went with entirely the wrong attitude, and unless he changes that its not going to work.
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Old 31st July 2014, 08:52 AM   #43
Raymond
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

Not a good start I would say. Neither of you seem to have hope about it.

No you are not beyond help provided he wants to mend things as well. It is good that he turned up in the end even though he ended up sulking.

One gets the feeling that he thinks it is all against him and is expecting it to be so. He either feels guilty or just despair over his inability to come up to the mark.

I wouldn't give up too quickly. She will have got an initial assessment to work on and will be planning the way forward. I think Chosen is right. It is too early to decide it won't work. It won't be all up to the counselor. It is also an opportunity for you both to discuss things with a third party there to keep things on track. It could end up a good opportunity for you both I think. One cannot very well argue in front of a counselor and it is a chance to talk about things without that distraction.
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Old 31st July 2014, 09:35 PM   #44
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

I'm just losing hope. Each day is more coldness. I feel like I'm being a doormat because no matter how poorly he behaves, his outbursts, hot headed walkouts, being given the cold shoulder, I'm trying to be positive.

One minute he's asking about how I'm getting on with finding a new place and then he's asking if we can watch a film together. I'm trying to take everything at face value and not read into it but it's just messing with my head and causing more problems. He wants me to be fine when he doesn't want any contact and wants open arms when he does.. I've told him it's difficult to know how is the right way to respond, when he's blowing hot and cold but he just gets sooo angry.

I know we've just started counselling but how long can I just sit and be treated like this, without any actual commitment from him that he even wants me. Whenever he talks about how he feels, he says he doesn't know if he wants the relationship anymore. Am I just suppose to feel like this until he figures it out? I'm so frustrated. Most of the time, I'm met with anger and resentment and it's chipping away at me.
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Old 31st July 2014, 09:54 PM   #45
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Re: Help! How do you know if it's really over?

Maybe its time for you to say that apart from the counselling you dont want to see him for a while. This may give you both a chance for a breather and a rest from all the stress. It may also help him to see what he really does want. Its very hard for you to never know where you are.
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