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Old 17th February 2006, 10:42 PM   #1
Jonas
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The female point of view

Hello all,

I am writing to get the other view of the biblical principles regarding marriage. I am 23 years old and in college right now in my third semester. I just had a short lasting relationship with a girl, I name her C here, which ended because of differences in opinions about how to lead a relationship before marriage and eventually marriage. Both of us were believers and still are.

The relationship lasted for three months, did not include sex, and was very exciting for me. I thought I had found the girl I was going to spend my life with. This conviction, however, lasted until I realized how different she was handling her spiritual life. When I became a believer, I always had the strong desire to read the word and understand it. I grew quickly during my first couple of steps in the faith. This eagerness to mature spiritually, getting to know God more and more and especially His will, has lasted until today. C, however, did not seem to have a similar eagerness for the word. She took her time and pursued her personal interests much more than pursuing her spiritual life, as it seemed to me. (Don't get me wrong here, personal interests are fine and important, but in my opinion should be second choice for us believers. Being in fellowship with our creator is much more important for our lives than going after our passions or dreams.)

This difference, of course, caused differences in opinion concerning what a relationship and eventually marriage should include. In our three month relationship we did read scriptures a lot. Of these meetings, I was the initiator because I wanted to make sure that we have a common spiritual basis in our time before and later for marriage. We also came quite close bodily. This means no sex, but long kissing and hugging on bed which came close to petting. We never aroused each other to an orgasm or touched our privates. This, I know now, was mainly because of me. I didn't want to sleep with her until we actually got married and moved in together or we could be sure, at least to certain extent, that we would go well together for a lifetime. For me sex belongs into marriage.

Now it came to the point where she wanted more. She wanted sex, but I didn't. I told her that my refraining from having casual sex with her was a service to my God with my body, yet it didn't get through to her.

With this other things naturally came up. Talking about sex begs for the question of kids and contraception. I mentioned the first explicitly and the second was only implied on her part. Never before have I thought about these two things more than in the past months. For me it was important to find out what God thinks. This I wanted to think and live out in a relationship and finally marriage.

What I found out was that God sees a married couple as under a yoke. This picture implies that those under it go the same direction on the path of life. This means unity in life's affairs, in the spiritual sphere as well as in any other. Even though this picture seems clear to me, I am still not sure how this would look practically.

The other element is family, children. I believe that God's original intention for husband and wife was not to be together having sex just for the pleasure of it. Of course, sex is pleasure, but is not intended to be exceptionally for our own gratification. But contraception does just that; it degrades sex to a mere means to satiate our lust. It blocks out the possibility of kids because they are unwanted. I believe this is not in the mind of God.

Now here come my questions for you women out there. Since C turned me down after I divulged her my convictions concerning sex and marriage, I am wondering how it was with you when you met your husbands. Did marriage mean family to you then, or did this sink in only after some years? How do you (practically) understand the picture of a yoke Jesus uses to describe marriage? How do you understand God's word in regard to sex and its place?

Where does marriage start and how would you support your viewpoint with the bible (does it start with sex or an official ceremony)? Does a marriage necessitate living together in one place? If yes, can we find it in the bible? How would you react, imagining being about my age, if you found a guy like me attractive but soon discovered he has these funny convictions?

I know, a lot of questions, but I am interested in you women and how you think and feel about these matters. Especially when you were at the start of your own life, lets say after age 18 or so, because that is where many things fall into place for a lifetime.

That's it for now. Hope I didn't overwhelm anyone. I am glad to share my experiences and thoughts with you in the hope to hear you out.

Regards,
Jonas

P.S. Sorry, I didn't look if some of my questions have been discussed in this forum. If so, simply tell me and I check it out. Don't bother to reiterate any thought that has already been typed here!
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Old 18th February 2006, 12:15 AM   #2
jools
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Re: The female point of view

Hi Jonas
Don't know if you read the post before yours (Jisco's) but I've got to admit that I can't get my head around your extreme form of Christianity. There's something very unnatural about your whole approach to relationships. What's all this "yoke" business? I know it's probably something mentioned in the bible but isn't that something you put on a carthorse to make it perform according to your wishes? As a free thinking female there's no way I want anyone to put a yoke on me (metaphorical or literal!)

If there's a wonderful all powerful God up there watching us do you really think he's watching you lying on the bed, snogging your girlfriend, roving hands (close to petting) and then he gets out his cosmic tape measure to ensure that your hands don't get too close to her "privates"...oh come on! You seem to have a very naive, simplistic interpretation to the whole sex and christianity thing. I'm not surprised your girlfriend lost patience! I'm sure you're a really nice bloke, but grow up!
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Last edited by jools; 20th April 2011 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 18th February 2006, 07:12 AM   #3
Jonas
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Re: The female point of view

Quote:
Originally Posted by jools
Hi Jonas
Don't know if you read the post before yours (Jisco's) but I've got to admit that I can't get my head around your extreme form of Christianity. There's something very unnatural about your whole approach to relationships. What's all this "yoke" business? I know it's probably something mentioned in the bible but isn't that something you put on a carthorse to make it perform according to your wishes? As a free thinking female there's no way I want anyone to put a yoke on me (metaphorical or literal!)
The thing is that Jesus uses it as a picture for marriage. As I understand it, it doesn't mean >I< put a yoke on my wife but God does. Sorry, I should have quoted the scripture. It is Matthew 19:4-6. There Jesus says:

"Did you not read that the Maker from the beginning makes them male and female, and He said, 'On this account a man shall be leaving father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh'? So that no longer are they two, but one flesh. What God, then, yokes together, let not man be seperating."

So it is actually God who yokes two people together in marriage. This a divine picture here and should sink into our understanding because it is how God sees marriage. I am just trying to get an understanding of what marriage means. What is marriage to you Jools? Independence, freedom from your mate? What is freedom? Isn't freedom where the spirit of the Lord is (2. Cor 3:17)?

You say you are a free thinking female. Are we free? Aren't we either slaves of Sin for death or slaves of Rightousness for holiness (Ro 6:15-23)? There are only these two posibilities. Either we fail in our doings (in God's sight) and earn death or we obey God and earn happiness and fulfillment.

I believe it is a common problem among humanity that we believe shutting God out makes us free. But it is exactly the opposite that happens if we do not take Him into account. Look at Adam and Eve; they did not obey what God had said, so they were cast out of Eden and incurred death for all humanity and themselves. Did that make them happier?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jools
If there's a wonderful all powerful God up there watching us do you really think he's watching you lying on the bed, snogging your girlfriend, roving hands (close to petting) and then he gets out his cosmic tape measure to ensure that your hands don't get too close to her "privates"...oh come on! You seem to have a very naive, simplistic interpretation to the whole sex and christianity thing. I'm not surprised your girlfriend lost patience! I'm sure you're a really nice bloke, but grow up!
I see what you mean here. I know that there is nothing in the bible about petting or what should or shouldn't be done before marriage. What is your interpretation of the whole sex and christianity thing I wonder? Or what is your grown-up view of these things? Also, please tell me what marriage looks like to you. I am interested. Tell me your mature and intelligent interpretation!

For me being a believer means reading and understanding scripture to find out what the will of my God is (Ro 12:1,2), so that I can serve Him well. It is not about me anymore or my ideas about things because I died and was roused together with Christ (Ro 6:8-11). I am not living to myself anymore (even though I fail many times a day) but to the One dying and being roused for my sake (2. Cor 5:15). You see, it is not about us, not about my will anymore, but about the will of God. And this will is good and well pleasing and perfect even though I might not think so!

So if the bible tells me marriage and sex belong together, and God sees husband and wife as under a yoke, then I cannot take sex lightly. Scripturally speaking, sex is the cusp of physical unification and follows the joining of the man to his wife. How can I then have sex with someone if I am not willing to join her? That would destroy the original order of things and certainly would not make us happier or freer.

I am not saying that caressing is bad or a sin. The question rather is what is the whole picture of a man and a woman being together (as husband and wife)? Is it just the sex? Or just kids? Or just the living together as under a yoke (in one place)? Or what?
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Old 18th February 2006, 02:09 PM   #4
jools
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Re: The female point of view

Hi Jonas
I will admit that I made a mistake here. I posted on the Christian marriage section and don't think I should have. I'm never going to see things your way and you're never going to see things my way, so I guess it's best left. To be really happy you're going to have to find a girl who lives her life according to the letter of the scriptures (as you do) or there will always be conflict. Good luck to you.
Jools.
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Last edited by jools; 20th April 2011 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 18th February 2006, 02:36 PM   #5
Jonas
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Re: The female point of view

Fair enough, people are influenced differently and usually don't choose to abide by what God says. I can't blame them. Everyone plays their part on this globe I believe. Hope you find your way and happiness.

Jonas
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Old 18th February 2006, 04:10 PM   #6
Liz
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Re: The female point of view

Dear Jonas

Hi there. Interesting situation you have found yourself in with your girl not wanting to continue the relationship because you didn't want sex outside marriage. I am sure there are others out there who share your values.

I'm not sure that the image of being yoked together is easy for many people to understand. Many women would resent the idea of being in some sort of servitude which is what the image portrays. However knowing the bible and other contexts the image is use in I understand it as being about pulling in the same direction rather than different ones.

When God joins us together as one flesh, that speaks to me of intimacy, of deep openness and closeness, which is at the heart of a healthy marriage, where you can share anything with each other even your self doubts and know you will be loved and accepted.

You talk about what sex is for. I don't think the bible suggests that it is just for creating children. I think it is a precious gift to show our love for each other. It's about giving pleasure and showing our love to each other.

I am not sure as a woman I would be very thrilled at the thought of marrying a man who told me sex was some sort of duty to have children. It's the most natural way in the world to express your love for each other in marriage. Contraception is not an easy subject to tackle as there is no comment on it in the bible. Could it not be good stewardship to try and plan ones family so one has the economic stability to care for them, so that the woman's health is considered?

You ask what marriage really is. Well there can be various answers to that - it is the most natural God designed relationship between man and woman. God said it wasn't good for man to be alone. It is a place for mutual support and service. It is the heart of family where children can be brought up in a safe and stable environment and see how love and forgiveness work. It can be a sign of God's love, a picture if you like of the way God loves us unconditionally.

If you would like to find out more and you are an avid reader then I can recommend Christopher Ash's book on marriage.

One last thought, it is important to marry someone who shares your values, but we are all on a journey and even Christians are simply saved sinners who are a long way from perfect. God is very gracious. When I married my husband neither of us were really clear about our faith. By God's grace we have come to understand and accept that we are uniquely made and special. We now share a strong faith but we are still different in our personalities and how we express that faith. You may never find someone just like you to marry, but I hope you will find a woman who can love you for who you are and who you can love as a unique child of God.

Liz
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Old 1st March 2006, 03:59 PM   #7
Jonas
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Re: The female point of view

Thank you Liz for your answer. I may input some more of my thoughts here when time comes. I believe too that there are women who share these values. I actually know some personally. God knows who it is going to be for me if at all. The matter with the last girl I talked about here is still nagging at my spirit and soul occasionally. Her simple rejection of divine principles offends my heart.

Sorry for the little delay in rosponding here. I was on a youthmeeting over the weekend.

Jonas
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Old 24th April 2006, 08:13 PM   #8
blessing
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Thumbs up Re: The female point of view

Hey J


I am glad that you stand on the principles of Our God and I believe that he has given you this steadfastness in his word for your own protection. In Gods word is wisdom that prevents much hurt SO keep on or you will end up in a situation like me full of unwise decissions that have led to me being in much much pain as i was abit like your C once more, concerned about what I wanted and not what God wanted for me and the concequences are devistating. I am so so sure that God will send that special one for you I can feel it. People just dont realize the importance of Gods mor al, that frame of mind that you have is a blessing its one of Gods many ways he is protecting & blessing you at the end of the day all glory will go to God
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Old 24th April 2006, 11:05 PM   #9
Jonas
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Re: The female point of view

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessing
Hey J


I am glad that you stand on the principles of Our God and I believe that he has given you this steadfastness in his word for your own protection. In Gods word is wisdom that prevents much hurt SO keep on or you will end up in a situation like me full of unwise decissions that have led to me being in much much pain as i was abit like your C once more, concerned about what I wanted and not what God wanted for me and the concequences are devistating. I am so so sure that God will send that special one for you I can feel it. People just dont realize the importance of Gods mor al, that frame of mind that you have is a blessing its one of Gods many ways he is protecting & blessing you at the end of the day all glory will go to God
Thank you Blessing for you reply. True, this frame of mind is a real blessing and I pray that my God may bestow it on many more of His saints.

It is intriguing to see that we might not feel comfortable with how God wants or intends things for us at one point in life but then suddenly are transformed. And this transformation does not come about because we are more intelligent than others or are better people. No! It is simply because our God wanted it so. He decides over our blindness as well as our enlightenment. Wonderful that is, to see oneself in His hand, at the mercy of His perfect will.

Realizing that what you think is good for you is ultimately not making you happy, is quite a mature condition to be in, I believe, spiritually speaking. I am glad you have been brought to this realization through our God!

Be assured in your mishaps, Blessing, "no trial has taken you except what is human. Now, faithful is God, Who will not be leaving you to be tried above what you are able, but, together with the trial, will be making the sequel also, to enable you to undergo it." (1.Cor 10:13)

And remember that "the grace of God made its advent for salvation to all humanity, training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon (or age), anticipating that happy expectation, even the advent of the glory of the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ, Who gives Himself for us, that He should be redeeming us from all lawlessness and be cleansing for Himself a people to be about Him, zealous for ideal act." (Titus 2:11-14)

I know you will come out strenghtened when your hardships are over. God cleanses you. And who said it wouldn't be painful?

It warms my heart to see you agreeing with divine principles. It gives me courage for a future with a woman with who I can share a life that seeks out God. Lately, I haven't had girls or women around me that shared the same convictions with me about marriage. I realize how important and strengthening it is to have people who enjoy God and His truths as much as you do yourself.

Rgards,
Jonas

Last edited by Jonas; 24th April 2006 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 26th April 2006, 10:19 PM   #10
blessing
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Re: The female point of view

Hi Jonas Its Blessing

When you have the time could you please just look at this passage and tell me what you think


Donít Confuse a Sin with a Covenant!

By Dr. Joseph A. Webb

Last edited by Kate; 27th April 2006 at 10:53 PM. Reason: Removal of copyright material
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Old 26th April 2006, 11:23 PM   #11
Jonas
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Re: The female point of view

I will blessing, as soon as I can find time. Have you read the text I recommended to you?

Jonas
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Old 27th April 2006, 08:57 AM   #12
blessing
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Re: The female point of view

Hi Jonas

Yes I did you must have been doing alot of research to find that, I wish I did before, It was abit much for me to take in at first but I will go over it gain. I feel abit tossed between to opions about remarrige. Its a real big subject and I am so scared of dissapointing God and going to hell but on the other hand I would feel totally at peace if I knew God would still accept and forgive me if I did remarry. I know life isnt all about a companion Because I do know right now I need to spend time alone with my God to understand myself under my current circumstance but i just dont want the option for re marriage to be taken from me in future.

Please would you let me know what happed with your C
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Old 28th April 2006, 07:23 AM   #13
Liz
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Re: The female point of view

Dear Blessing

If you believe and trust in Jesus and what he has done for you, you won't go to hell. I commend your desire to do God's will and not to sin and to spend time alone with him seeking his will for your life right now.

We have had a look at the article by Dr Webb. The work he and others like him are doing is to challenge the easy come easy go culture towards divorce in some parts of the church. He is challenging believers to recognise that God expects them to do all they can to remain faithful in marriage. After all we have such an abundance of resources of forgiveness, grace and love available to us through our salvation and the gift of the Holy Spirit, that we should be able to live together in marriage. However it is you that has been deserted and ignored by your husband.

There has been much scholarship and study devoted to understanding the scriptures and in particular to understand their full meaning by understanding the context they were given in. I recommended before on one of your threads the book by David Instone Brewer. I think you would find it very easy to read and full of both challenges and comfort.

You find yourself in a really hard situation right now. God is a righteous and holy God, but he is also a God of mercy and compassion. I am sure that He longs for you to draw close to Him at this difficult time and get to know Him better. He has however also placed you in a church family, so that they can support you and help you discern His will for you at this time.

If you are in the UK and cannot find the support you need in your own church, then you might like to contact Aquila to see whether they have a local group near you.

Liz
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Old 28th April 2006, 04:33 PM   #14
blessing
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Re: The female point of view

Hi Liz

Thank you for reading my stuff and I really appreciate your encouragment, I was wondering if I could get hold of this book in my local book store.
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Old 28th April 2006, 06:21 PM   #15
Helen
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Re: The female point of view

Blessing,

If you can't get it at your church or local bookstore, you may be able to buy it from Amazon, as they have several titles by this author.


Helen
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