My wife had an 18 month affair

[snowmike]

Well the bugging device did really rile her.

We sat down last night and talked calmly for an hour, for the first time since the discovery of the affair. At the start she said she really didn't know if she wanted to continue to try and rebuild our marriage, due to the bug, which I said was audio only (she said she didn't believe me). I kept asking why? I said that if I hadn't used it she wouldn't have ended things with 'him' as that is how I found it was ongoing at the start of this whole debacle. By the end of the conversation she had agreed to continue with the 3 month commitment.

She refused point blank to go to a Relate session as she feels it would tell her nothing - she is very close minded on this. She scoffed (mildly) at the books I have bought, but I expect she will soften on this stance. She is going to stay in the separate bedroom for the time-being as she enjoys having her own space and not being threated by my constant talking about "everything". She says it will take a long time before she may feel "luvy-duvy" again with me. She says there are no guarantees that we will successfully rebuild our marriage and says that it really comes down to my decision. She has doubts that I can really continue with the whole thing, due to my upset and attitudes. She is pissed off that shw can no longer go to line dancing "socials" - every Friday and some Saturday nights. She says she is really missing them and it is a big deal to her. I have tried to offer a compromise on this but she won't accept it. May explain more on this in the future. I said is our marriage going to fail because she can't go line danicing - she said no, but it is one of many things she is not happy about. I know she enjoys this and it gets her out socially which she loves (for obvious fecking reasons!!!). I am at a loss what to do about this.

She only has a part-time job earning pin-money, but says she is constantly looking for a full-time job to be able to support herself if she needs to. We have a joint bank account which she continues to use, but her own pay goes into a separate account from which a direct debit (DD) comes out every month to pay towards our mortgage - ocassionally I have to tranfer money to this account to ensure there is enough there for the payment. She is going to cancel this DD as she says she needs to start to build up some money if things go tits-up over the next few months.

I have always had the view that people are basically good/decent, but since reading threads on here for the last week or so, I am realising that is not the case. I feel I am being manipulated to a degree and that my wife is in the driving seat and controlling things. This really gets to me as she is the one who had the affair, not me. Surely it should be me in the driving seat setting the rules now?!

For instance I have been checking her mobile phone for calls and messages. She had him in the phone under a different name of course, but she had deleted all her message history before I checked the phone, but I feel I need to monitor her phone on an ongoing basis. She accepted this at the start but is becoming increasingly irritated that I am doing it. The night before last she said she understands why I am doing it but that doesn't mean she is happy about it. Then 2 nights ago she said she will only accept all this sh1t for so long. We both seem to be on a knife edge all the time.

I know I wasn't the perfect husband - who is? I did not pay her enough attention over the last few years and I know that is the cause of what has happened, but it doesn't excuse it, it takes 2 to tango and we both failed here. She sure as hell wasn't the perfect wife - poor cook, sex only 2 or 3 times a month, always took the hump easily, PMT for a few days every month when she was particularly prickly) , but she went and destroyed everything 20 months ago and now it seems to be all my fault.

One moment I feel relief that we are going to keep trying to re-build things and then the next moment I am thinking she is damaged goods and I should just end it all and F**k it. I hate the way she seems in control of everything. I am sleeping badly and only got about 3 hours last night. I can't get to sleep and then keep waking up and of course the whole situation is all that is in my mind all the time. You are quite right Raymond about the doormat and I am very conscious of this now (wasn't at the start). I have made some threats that have not been carried through (probably shouldn't have made them in the first place) but I am not exactly experienced at all this sh1t! I have certainly had my eyes opend by all the threads on this forum..... and I am very worried that my wife is far more cunning that I am or ever will be. But I still hold onto what we had for 20 years before everthing started to go down-hill and then the fecking affair. We always rowed a fair bit and I suppose there was always a bit of a power struggle between us but we were both in love and that always used to sustain us. I think/feel I am grieving for what has now gone, bu I still feel we can rebuild and possibly end up with a better marriage - that is what I am holding out for.

I am meeting a good friend who is an NLP practioner tonight, so will see if he can offer any help/advice. But I suppose what I am asking is how do I gain control of things as I feel that would help me deal with the whole situation better, or is it simply an expectation that I need to give up on?

Sorry this post is so long and all over the place, but it is an out-pouring of my feelings and emotions and I suppose a cry for help. I told my wife last night (calmly) that I felt she was stealing my future, she replied that we may not have one. Yet another kick in the balls....

[Raymond]

You need to try and keep loving her Snowmike but at the same time you need more control over the situation. She is the adulterer not you.

If she wants to go line dancing so much then she goes with you. She hasn't proved she can be trusted yet. That is quite reasonable and she should understand that.

Stopping helping with the mortgage is not an option and does not show a comittment to try and mend the marriage.

I feel there has to be conditions set now if she is back. She needs to lump them or leave in my opinion. If she doesn't play ball then yes you will become a doormat. I wouldn't rile her by bugging things but you obviously need to be aware of her movements.

If you can be loving and strong too in the sense of not being a doormat then I think there is a chance. She needs to play ball. You have warned her that if she is unfaithful again then it is over. That needs to be very clear.

The trust has been seriously broken in the marriage and if no true repentance comes forth from her then I don't think you will have a valid marriage. I think you can afford to be tough but loving too. There is such a thing as tough love which is needed here I think. She is very fortunate not to be kicked out in the street in my opinion. Lets hope she can use the chance she has.

Obviously you need to try and make up for the previous lack of attention but not the type that will make her feel free to flirt. That's where you need to be strong.

One of the main things you need to posture for is the risk of losing her. You must be ready for this otherwise you will not be tough enough. This means you back up your word regardless and she will know you mean business, but you need to be fair at the same time. Quite a challenge I know.

[snowmike]

Thanks for the reply Raymond.

I am gradually coming to the conclusion that to be fair to myself and to keep my own dignity, I need to lay down a set of conditions on paper and get her to agree and sign them.

I need to be ready to kick her out if she does not agree to the conditions. As you say this is tough love.

I am not going to do it today, but will probably need to have it done by the end of this weekend as this is all eating me up too much.

Our house is in joint names (UK law), do I have the right to actually kick her out? Can I ask her to pack a suitcase and if she refuses force her to leave with just her car? She has a brother within 15 miles, who she could go and stay with.

Ultimately, as you say if she is not repentant and says she is no longer in love with me, then what is the point?

At last I am feeling a little better and empowered by this course of action. If she agrees to the conditions, then we have the basis on which we can start to rebuild.

[snowmike]

How does this look? Would you remove or add anything? Do you think it is OTT? I have to be fair to both of us.

Conditions we must both agree to, in order to re-build our marriage, following your infidelity / adultery: - 12/01/2013

1. No contact with “him” whatsoever and no further un-faithfulness.
2. We must both show clearly our commitment to re-building our marriage for a minimum period of 3 months and by mutual agreement thereafter.
3. We must both be honest with each other at all times.
4. Trust needs to be rebuilt – this can only be achieved by openness regarding our location, movements, activities, email, phone calls, texts, etc.
5. We must show our commitment to care and be considerate of each other’s needs and wants. This requires repentance being shown by the adulterer in due course.
6. We commit to be fair and reasonable with each other provided we are both trying to rebuild our love for each other and display patience if either one of us is unable to progress as quickly as the other.
7. We must both continue to pay towards the upkeep of the house including any/all DD and SO commitments to pay mortgages/loans/credit card debts.
8. Line Dancing classes on a Tuesday morning and evening will continue. No line dancing socials unless we both agree and we both attend.
9. We must both make time for each other and support each other every day.
10. We must not smother each other and allow each other some space to be ourselves.
11. We must both sleep in the marital bed unless we both agree otherwise.
12. Neither of us must take each other for granted ever again and we must strive to show that we are special to each other as often as we can.
13. We must consider each other’s feelings when we speak/act and respect each other’s need for privacy in the home, without spying on each other.

We must both agree to all of the above conditions: -

If both parties do not agree to these conditions, the adulterer will leave the home as soon as a suitcase is packed. Further belongings can be retrieved at an agreed date and time.
If the above conditions are broken, the adulterer will leave the home within one week of breaking the conditions.

Signed

Signed

[Forever]

Wont work. She does not want the marriage and will take one look at that list and see it as a form of inprisonment instead of a freewill attempt to save a marriage that she does not want.

Only someone with a contrite heart full of remorse would be willing to do those things...and they would bend over backward to do it naturally rather than from a "to do" list. She does not feel contrite one nit...just embarrased that she has been caught...and "justified" by some twisted way of thinking.

She is "buying time" just so she can get full time employment and then make a run for it. Women are like that...planning in advance and cow towing long enough to make it happen.

Sorry, but the only place in the car you have right now is strapped into the childs car seat...she is driving here.

You have two choices. Let her stay until she can get her feet on the ground financially (which would benefit you in the long run)...or tell her she has to leave the minute you find her violating you again. Meanwhile, I would not be snooping or restricting a woman who has absolutely no feelings for you left. Let her have her freedom and then kick her out when she violates it. You will know when that happens...you will accidently run into it w/o even trying because she will get sloppy as she does not really care.

[snowmike]

Don't hold back Forever! You sure know how to take a guy's breath away. You are not her sister by any chance??

But seriously, I appreciate your candid response. It certainly lets me see a different side of things. Just when I think a course of action is right, I see very different perspectives.....

I am not convinced you are right Forever, but you maybe. I will listen and watch very carefully over the next 3 or 4 days before deciding on the nuclear option.

But for the moment my spirits are still picked up a bit.

[Forever]

Sorry if I have a tendency to deflate you. Being a older woman (58) I know how women operate in situations like this. It is almost predictable...but I really do hope I am wrong in your case.

Go ahead and test this for yourself. Give her the laundry list and see what she does with it.

Her telling you that "she can only put up with this $hit for so long" means that you have no rights as far as she is concerned. THAT means she has no contrite spirit...and is barely putting up with you even though she knows she full well deserves it. Her being unwilling to go get counseling is another tip off. Her sleeping in another room, yet another. Any resentment coming from her having her wings clipped is yet another.

Put the shoe on the other foot...you being the adulterer and not giving a rip about your wife...yet without a source of employment to sustain you. How would you respond to a laundry list of do's and dont's especially if you were the one who wanted out?

[Forever]

You want to feel as if you are in the drivers seat huh? Well you are NOT. You are going about this in the wrong way. Handing her a list will not be received by her as being from a man who loves her...on the contrary, it will be seen as a power play in spite of the circumstances she created.

You need to step WAY back and give her the freedom she wants, stop checking on ANYTHING, and just be a kind gentleman while you still have her there...because she IS planning to leave so you dont have much time to turn this back around. If she leaves in spite of your kindness, then you lost her anyway...and it is no shame to be a gentleman. Becoming Gestapo wont win anyone...not even a child. All you will succeed in doing is driving her further from you.

[snowmike]

So all I have is being a kind gentleman while she kicks me in the balls? If that is right, life fecking sucks!

[Forever]

This is not going to work if you let your ego get the best of you dear. Yes, be a kind gentleman...it is the ONLY chance you have to keep her there. She will likely pack a bag and head over to her brother's house or someone else's if you dont stop with the strong arm tactics.

This is your last opportunity to consider what may have driven her into doing the nasty with someone else. Look deep into how you handled the marriage. Do the opposite now while you have the chance. She must have had a terrible emotional void going on, and felt that she was not being heard or her feelings respected for a very long time. We cannot keep the love in a marriage alive if one party feels as if their heart is being ignored for years on end.

Loosen your grip.

[Forever]

Look, I understand how you feel about what she has done and the attitude she is now giving you since you found her out. But YOU said that you wanted to save the marriage rather than toss it. Your knee jerk reaction is VERY understandable, but accomplishes nothing...as you can clearly see.

So, you have to do the opposite of how you usually respond to stressors and issues in your marriage. Keeping a noose around her neck wont work...she has had enough of that feeling for years now and has tasted "freedom", what she thinks is "love", and has a better idea of how she wants to be treated in the future.

It takes a strong man to suck it up for the sake of turning this around...you have to decide if your future with her is worth the effort. Even if you lose her, she will have second and third thoughts about how you responded to her if you do it right...she will see that you are capable of stepping outside your own pain and tried to consider what may have brought her to this despicable state.

Your call.

If you prefer, I can stay off of your thread.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by snowmike

How does this look? Would you remove or add anything? Do you think it is OTT? I have to be fair to both of us.

Conditions we must both agree to, in order to re-build our marriage, following your infidelity / adultery: - 12/01/2013



OK this is my take on the list.

1. No contact with “him” whatsoever and no further un-faithfulness. Agreed
2. We must both show clearly our commitment to re-building our marriage for a minimum period of 3 months and by mutual agreement thereafter. Unfortunately one cannot legalise this. It has to be from the heart. It can be mentioned though as something to aim for.
3. We must both be honest with each other at all times. Ditto something hoped
4. Trust needs to be rebuilt – this can only be achieved by openness regarding our location, movements, activities, email, phone calls, texts, etc.Yes trust does need to be rebuilt but not by rules. aim for it of course
5. We must show our commitment to care and be considerate of each other’s needs and wants. This requires repentance being shown by the adulterer in due course.Perfectly correct and true but one cannot sign for that.
6. We commit to be fair and reasonable with each other provided we are both trying to rebuild our love for each other and display patience if either one of us is unable to progress as quickly as the other. Wonderful, but discuss it and aim for it together.
7. We must both continue to pay towards the upkeep of the house including any/all DD and SO commitments to pay mortgages/loans/credit card debts.If you can achieve that it would be good.
8. Line Dancing classes on a Tuesday morning and evening will continue. No line dancing socials unless we both agree and we both attend. I think this is reasonable and should be insisted on.
9. We must both make time for each other and support each other every day. A wonderful hope and aim.
10. We must not smother each other and allow each other some space to be ourselves. Discuss it together.
11. We must both sleep in the marital bed unless we both agree otherwise.One cnnot legislate on this. A good aim though if you can agree.
12. Neither of us must take each other for granted ever again and we must strive to show that we are special to each other as often as we can. Great aim to be sure.
13. We must consider each other’s feelings when we speak/act and respect each other’s need for privacy in the home, without spying on each other. wonderful ai again

We must both agree to all of the above conditions: - I think only number 1 & 8 are essentials but they should be your conditions. She doesn't have a choice. If she breaks them that is the end in my opinion.

If both parties do not agree to these conditions, the adulterer will leave the home as soon as a suitcase is packed. Further belongings can be retrieved at an agreed date and time.
If the above conditions are broken, the adulterer will leave the home within one week of breaking the conditions.

Signed

Signed

I don't think you can put all this in a letter for her to sign or the marriage is over. No. 1 & 8 are essentials and you need to make a stand on that. The others are desirable but I don't think you can treat them like a business contract. You both would break the rules. If you can lay down the conditions of 1 & 8 it would be good but I think you have already told her this or at least number 1. You don't need her to sign on this. That is just how it is and she needs to know it.

If you have joint ownership then you both own the house together. Any sale and you get half each even though you have paid most of the mortgage. Therefore you cannot kick her out but you can end the marriage on the strength of her unrepented of adultery. I don't think you need to be nice if you are being trampled. That wouldn't help her. Find room for love yes but you cannot afford to be taken as a doormat. That is not loving to her or anyone.

[Forever]

Just to clarify (because you did not tell me to stay off your thread yet)...I did not mean "gentleman" and "kind" as meaning dripping with concessions, sucking up to her whims, pleading, begging, or otherwise following her around like a puppy dog to see what you can do to make her comfortable. I also dont mean giving her the credit cards for a spending spree, asking her if she needs anything, or jumping up to get her a snack.

I meant handling yourself with Class and not verbally hitting out against her, or cornering her to making split second decisions or concessions for YOU (except for not seeing the OM), or being rude and making comments that are unproductive...such as "well, YOU were the cheat...what do you expect"...or how greatful she should be that you dont throw her out on her a$$...blah blah blah.

That is what I mean by "gentleman and kind"...it is a consistent tone of voice that is calm and kind rather than condensending or patronizing, and with the goal of changing your strategy of how you normally would argue or fight or speak to her in the past. Also, not shoving books in her face or demanding she goes to counseling. You can read those books, and you can go to counseling alone because it might help you in the future if this does not work out.

She might be there for only a few more months...you need to change the way you talk to her keeping in mind that you can easily drive her out sooner, which will give no chance of ever getting her back. At that point, if she does leave anyway...in spite of you changing tactics, then you will have to decide if you even really want her back after giving this your best shot.

If she is spending most of her time in her room, then you can be sure she is trying to figure out a way to leave...no one can stand the idea of having to avoid their spouse for long and being stuck in the confines of their room. So if she does not feel as if walking into the kitchen to grab a cup of tea is going to result in another confrontation or "talk" that she does not want to have, you will be doing well starting there.

[snowmike]

Thanks for all your opinions and thoughts, it is much appreciated. I have asked nobody to stay off this thread and have said nothing but thank you for your insights and thoughts.

Tonight I have decided that the nuclear option (conditions laundary list) is not the way forward and would need considerable re-wording anyway. I will be following the wise words of an unknown person who said, "if you want something you've never had then you've got to do something you've never done."

My goal continues to be to re-build our marriage and make it stronger and better than before.

As I type this message my wife is back in our marital bed. Nite Nite.

[Forever]

Great words to live by...I wish you well.