How to share household bills

[carriew]

Hi,
I've been married for 5 years now and my husband and I have never had joint finances, mainly because I earn (a lot) more than him (I earn 75% of the household income) and he has a very different view than me on finances and spends everything he has. I would rather plan for the future and have contigency plans in place should something unplanned crop up - which it always does and he's always asking me for money.
My husband used to earn the same as me but gave up a lucrative career to start his own company which unfortunately didn't work out and so he's now employed in another industry earning a fraction of what he used to earn.
My question is this:
What is fairer - do we split the household bills 75/25 or do we pay an equal portion of our respective salaries in to the bills?
Incidentally his salary doesn't actually quite cover 25% of the bills but I'm just wondering what, all things being equal, is the fairest way to split this!
Thanks :-)

[chosen]

In my opinion when you marry everything is joint, no matter what you come in with and no matter who earns what. At the moment I am not working but all that my husband earns goes into our joint account and is ours and not his. I came into this marriage with a house, but now it is ours and not mine.
This splitting things according to what you earn seems weird to me, and maybe the answer is to get help for the both of you (maybe counselling) to come to some agreement on curbing his spending and making some agreements as to what is done financially.

I want to also say that for most men it is so important that they feel respected and so never ever make anything of the fact that you earn more than him, and never ever rub it in his face. It shouldnt matter who earns what, it is all joint money.If you have children you may well be earning nothing for sometime so what will you do then if you see it as 'his' and 'yours'?

[carriew]

Hi Chosen,

Thanks for your quick response, I do actually agree with you about maintain a partnership.

In an ideal world I wouldn't even be asking this question and we'd have a joint bank account that we both get paid in to but this has never happened in the 5 years we've been married and thank goodness as last year my husband was made bancrupt due to his spending (he's actually bi-polar as well which has a lot to answer for) and we've had lots of counselling but he doesn't seem to be learning his lessons. Our marriage is EXTREMELY unstable due to a great number of reasons which I won't go in to too much other than to say I am a little diffensive so it's hard to know what is the middle ground.

Based on your earlier advice If I can get him to agree to pay his salary in to a joint account and for me to do the same then do we each take an equal amount out for "spending money"? Or how does it work in practice?

Thanks!

[Raymond]

Chosen seems to know about these things and I don't want to cut across her.

My thought is to use the strengths you have. A lot of people say that the man should handle the finance but in reality a woman can be better at it. That you don't trust him with finance is understandable given the situation. It is not so much that you are getting more that is important rather that you seem to be better at managing it on behalf of both of you.

Whilst it is true that everything should be jointly owned in a marriage it should still be managed in the best way possible. A lot depends on the personalities of the couple concerned and one cannot force it if the trust isn't really there financially.

If you do go for a joint account for the household bills it may be wise in this situation to have a separate account also for personal spending to see how it works. If that is manageable you might be able to progress from there. If even that doesn't work then two separate spending accounts might. You would need to discuss these things and hopefully he might see that you are better at managing money and trust you to do that for you both and for your future together.

[chosen]

In my first marriage of 25 years,I always dealt with the money and paid the bills etc even though for most of it my husband was the main earner. We had a joint account and everything was joint. I only did the money because I was maybe better at it and he didnt particularly want to do it.
In this marriage of 5 years, we seem to share it, and again we have a joint account and everything is ours jointly.
As for spending money do you means for personal things such as clothes luxuries and going out or do you mean food and petrol etc?

In my first marriage we never had any spare money ever, all we had went on bills, food, the car and bringing up three chidren, so there was none left for any personal use.
This time, sometimes there is some spare and sometimes not(he has his own buisiness) but if there is somthing that we want or need we just seem to agree on it. If it is something big we discuss it and if it is small we trust each other to get it if it is needed. We definately dont have a set amount of spending money each or anything like that. If I want to get something and my hsuabnd isnt happy about it or doesnt think we or I need it, I wont get it.

[Raymond]

You obviously work well relationally Chosen so that there is no problem.

We have a different system that just evolved. My wife gave up work about one and a half years after she was married and was a full time mother. She didn't really have anything except a couple of chipboard lockers. I used to pay a large sum into her personal account which covered all the shopping needs household etc. with plenty over for clothes etc. Occasionally she would need more for special things which I took care of as it is all our money anyway. Like you we decide jointly on big things but organise it slightly differently. I think I prefer to just pay a monthly sum into her account and let her manage it. Everyone is slightly different I think. The house is jointly owned of course.

[carriew]

Thanks for your advice Chosen and Raymond, it has all been very helpful!

As you correctly put it it's not so much that I am getting more that is important, and I'm not afraid to share what I do have, it's more I am better at managing money, paying bills etc. and I am concious that I don't want to have money that I carefully save "for a rainy day" or for emergencies to be spent on bills which my husband hasn't paid.

I also want to be able to split the bills "fairly" so that he can never accuse me of asking him to pay too much or getting in to a situation where I am subsidising all the household bills and making all the financial sacrifices (for instance I don't even have the cash at the end of the month to get my hair cut by husband is talking of buying a motor bike!) which allows him more disposable income on a monthly basis and I have to live a very frugal life despite bringing in 75% of the income.

I am very cautious but I am not a scrooge and I'm not trying to control my husband (although he thinks I am), I just want to do what's fair for both of us and am having a hard time figuring out what that is.

My husband's job is commission based (although these have not started yet as he's new to the job) so last night I asked him to pay all his salary (including any commission as and when it comes in) in to an account (admittedly in my name as his account(s) are managed by the Official Receiver still however in April I'll be able to transfer this account in to a joint one) and I will do the same. We will then pay all the bills (including all day-to-day items like petrol) from this account and draw an equal "allowance" for spending money, for instance to buy coffees, train fares to work and in my case credit card debt that I have in my name solely. Anything left after all of this would be put in to a joint saving account. Initially any money that went in to this saving account would be mine as I have the higher income but I would hope that once the commissions start coming in this would balance out and it would become "our" money.

Does that sound fair?

When I mentioned it last night husband was not too happy, accused me of trying to control him and said he would still be paid in to his seperate account and would transfer over money once a month to cover the bills. Which on paper sounds like the net effect would be the same but that it what we have been doing for the past 5 years and in practice it doesn't work because he gets paid, spends the money on things he deems to be super important and then I'm left picking up a much greater share of the bills and don't have money for a hair cut.

Perhaps I should trust him for a few months and see how things pan out? Part of me says you have to start as you mean to go on and pick your battles but this seems a big issue to me as is causing untold stress in our relationship, slightly more for me because sometimes I feel like I'm being taken for a ride which leads to resentment which I don't like, and also for him because a) what Chosen said about a man's pride (I think he does feel embarassed that I earn more but he's also very happy to ask me for money when the time comes and as I said before he CHOSE to give up a lucrative career) but also he just thinks I'm being obsessive and controlling which if I am is meant with the best intentions.

I should stress that we don't have a lot of money and considering what I earn we are still extremely badly off financially so part of it is the principal of the matter but like I said I just want to do what's fair for us both.

Also, no kids involved if that makes a difference, probably not.

Sorry to rabbit on!

[Raymond]

There are lots of different systems one can use about money Carrie. I think the problem is relational. You are obviously better with money and he seems to have a problem with it. He is tending to see you as controlling and you are tempted to see him as wasteful? You have to meet in the middle somewhere. The obvious answer is to put everything into the pot and see how it works. As the better manager you could handle all the bills from it and discuss things about motor bikes on an individual basis.

However you say that he wants all his money to go into his own account leaving him to pay into the general account a proportion towards half the bills. Is there any reason why this won't work or does he spend too much? If so it ought to be agreed that it is for bills mortgage etc. only. He can dip into his own account for special things or save up for it. You could always help him with things he really wants if you felt it right which would show your good heart. I think a household account is a good thing for you both at the moment. This could leave you free to save a little for the future on behalf of you both. Really it comes down to agreeing what we spend our money on and what we don't spend it on.

Have you had a lot of independence before marriage Carriew?

[Forever]

Hi,
Just wanted to weigh in with my opinion. My daughter is married to a bi-polar husband. He has spent them both through bankruptcy eight years ago and is busy taking them towards yet another bankruptcy. He emptied their "joint account" behind her back, and opened an account of his own where his pay checks go. He also has a seperate post office box so she does not know how much is owed or to whom. She and he have two small children and she never knows if he is paying bills on time (except by calls from angry creditors) or where the money he earns is going. They live at poverty level, while he spends money on his "I wants". By law, she is half responsible for the marital debt even though he racks it up without her consent and tries to live above their income.

He borrows from his parents, telling them it is for bills (NOT), and owes them thousands that he will never pay back. He seems to have no conscious about how sneaky he is and is consistantly late in making payments...incurring a great deal in bank charges for non sufficient funds and late charges. Before the children, he used her excellent credit and income to rack up debt for stupid selfish things. Now she is afraid to go back to work, the last time she did that, he made her pay most of the bills and spent his money on "I wants" and back into more debt.

He recently purchased a truck which they could not afford (it is a gas guzzler) and is now threatening to sell her van because she is a stay at home mom and "does not need it", even though she uses it for getting the kids to school and doctors ect. He keeps his truck at work forty miles away for the whole week, hitch hikes to work and back and then brings it home for the weekend to save gas which others end up paying for.

His ego gets torched when she begs to handle the finances and he has basically earned her distrust in spades. He is a liar and tells half truths which she is always catching him in.

If your husband's ego is so important here, then I would go ahead and open a joint account for a few months and put all your money in it. Watch where it all goes and be prepared for fire works when you confront him if he spends the money needed for bills (or your share of any discretionary money). Keep your present account open because eventually you will need to divert your pay back there to salvage your good credit and sanity.

Bi-polar (and selfish people) do not fire on all cylinders. They obsess about what they want and scheme on how to get it...they cannot take "no" or "wait" for an answer. They will walk away from any employment that does not cater to the way they want things (no matter how lucrative it was), and deal with the consequences later. The more you earn, the more they want to spend....they live in the "NOW" and saving looks like foolishness and control to them. They will blame shift calling you a control freak, manipulator, or worse, when you try to reason with them or if you do find the need to take control for the best interest of your household. Be glad that you dont have any children...you would be even more protective if you did.

My daughter and her husband are in constant discord because she is always worried sick about whether or not there will be propane for heat and cooking and for basic necessities. Their only saving grace is the food stamps they get. She has lost respect for him and they are pushing forty, not likely to change at this point.

My point is this. Sometimes we are mated with someone who is ego driven and irresponsible. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out. The others who posted here are fortunate...they get to live in the ideal harmony. You had better take a reality check before you try to do "the right thing". Sometimes the ideal thing has nothing to do with the right thing.

If all earnings go into the same account and you want to pay bills on time, what will you do if he has helped himself to those funds first? You will fight like cats and dogs. All because of his choices and because you were trying to be the "good guy". If you are already at odds now, it will get worse if he has not earned your trust or if he is threatening your well being. You will end up micro managing the account to see what he is doing, and he will make you feel guilty for your mistrust. Our past behavior is strongly to be taken into consideration when trying to move forward. I suggest a month by month trial to see how things go. I also suggest putting something aside if you find that you need to dig yourself out of a mess.

Your relationship is already unhealthy...how much are you willing to risk if things dont work out in the long run?
Sorry, I think your hubby just wants access to more of the money than you are willing to risk giving him...he can take it ALL if he wants to in a joint account, and there is nothing you can do to prevent that. As a test before April, put some money in a joint savings and watch to see what happens to it, especially if you disagree on how it should be used.

[carriew]

Hi there,

Thanks to everyone for your replies -

Forever you have hit the nail squarley on the head with what it is like to live with someone who is Bipolar, I feel whole heartedly for your daughter as I know exactly what it's like, it's such a distructive condition for everyone involved and often it's hard to know what part of bad behaviour is down to pure selfishness and what part is down to the condition. Everything becomes a blame game with the ill person trying to shift focus when they are in hot water and they NEVER like being told that they are being unreasonable and ALWAYS believe it's someone elses fault. Good medication really does help though (my husband's constantly has to be checked and rebalanced) but it really is the only way to manage the situation and if they agree to be serious about it they will honestly return to the person that you have fallen in love with.

Raymond your advice was good as well and to answer your question yes, I am only 30 but I have been pretty independant my entire life and financially independant since I was 18 when I left home. While I agree that a marriage is a partnership I also think we live (and love) in modern times and what used to work financially for couples in the past doesn't necessarily now. I am very protective of my finances though as I work hard to earn what I do and I am also accutely aware that I am always the back up plan when finances are tough so I need to be. My initial enquiry was to know what was "fair" so that I could use it as a starting point for what I think is "fair" in my particular situation.

I think going forward and given the advice I have received, and also due to the fact that I actually don't want to micro manage my situation, I am thinking of doing the following:

1) Give my husband a minimum amount that he must pay to me on a monthly basis.

2) Have a seperate account (it will have to be in my name only at this stage) to pay the monthly bills from which my husband can deposit his share in to.

3) I will maintain a seperate account for my savings and personal spending money.

4) Ask to see my husbands pay slip every month so that when he does earn a better commission I can ask him to pay off some debt on a case-by-case basis.

I can't think of a "fairer" way to do it as it really is a toss up of risk vs fairness...!

Thanks again to all 3 of you for your help and advice, it really has been invaluable.

Carrie

[Raymond]

Sounds good to me Carrie. You have obviously thought this through thoroughly and given your situation it sounds good to me.

I knew you had experienced a lot of independence and part of you wanted to share in the right way, but you needed to be wise as well. I think you have got the balance right for the present time.

Just a small aside. Funny you use the word seperate (adjective) as opposed to separate (verb). I thought I was going mad. Everyone plus the dictionaries say there is only one word for both so I gave in and started to use the one word. Now hearing you use it I am going back to the two words.

[carriew]

Hi Raymond,

Thanks for your reply.

That's so funny re seperate vs separate, I also thought they were two seperate (deliberate use of the word here!) spellings for the two different meanings and have never even thought that it might be wrong...
According to http://www.re-vision.com/spelling/separate.html however perhaps I am wrong or may be it's a US/UK English anomaly thing.
Anyway, thanks for bringing it to my attention - will file it with my effect/affect issues and have to think about it each time now!

:-)

Take care,
Carrie

[Raymond]

Great minds think alike Carriew.

God bless

[Chamomile]

Your relationship is already unhealthy...how much are you willing to risk if things dont work out in the long run?
Sorry, I think your hubby just wants access to more of the money than you are willing to risk giving him...he can take it ALL if he wants to in a joint account, and there is nothing you can do to prevent that. As a test before April, put some money in a joint savings and watch to see what happens to it, especially if you disagree on how it should be used.

Interesting point Forever.

I'm not sure if being a Bi-polar gives the person an excuse to behave irresponsibly even if he or she is on a medication. I do hear Bi-polar is a spectrum disorder that extends to personality disorder. Bi-polar has an organic cause (in the brain). Doesn't that give him some mental incapacity status unless he is only mildly affected? (maybe you need to check that with a lawyer)

I'm seeing a therapist for myself and my separated h. This would be one of the topics I do need to address myself (finance). He had neglected our relationship financially over a number of years and he has been extremely irresponsible expecting me to pay for everything most of our marriage. He even seemed to think he didn't need to pay his own council tax which I refused to pay (why should I?) and he eventually begrudgingly paid himself as he is a high earner with benefits and pensions. He blew his house deposit by having his tax office checking his account going back to 10 years.

Now I have been ill but he simply cannot help expecting me to "take my responsibility" when I hadn't seen much of his action. This time, he's wanting me to sell my house where I am living in. I'm not sure if he wants to change but knowing he finally accepted to go to a couple therapy he might have done. However, there was something seriously bad did happen and he finally admitted he had problems.

Men probably wouldn't like an independent woman earning a lot more. If she (or someone) did, he probably wouldn't refuse to take advantage so much as it is convenient, particularly if a man has expensive hobbies to feed (as mine does). I often thought it's a shame when we are married, we don't have any laws to protect us financially and only when we are in a divorce proceeding, we finally get a clear disclosure of what withholding spouse was earning.

[Chamomile]

Greetings Brain xx

I cannot agree more. I wish I was much wiser, informed or educated in marital finances ages ago. Welcome to this friendly site, anyway :)

xxx