Understanding the need for Space? [Archive] - 2-in-2-1 Discussion Forums

koliver0821

8th January 2010, 10:05 PM

I'm curious does any one have any way to help me understand the need for space? I've been married for 10 years and together for 13. I have 4 kids all under the age of 9. We do not have a sound financial profile. We both made really bad mistakes financially that has caused a ton of stress as well. My wife decided on Monday that she needed space. In some ways I feel like I pushed her to that decision and Ill try to explain that. Its not like we haven't had relations either. In fact, our sex life has been just as good as our dating days.

We had an emotional last few days. I've been feeling down for the last couple of months and really cant explain why. I started questioning my wife's need to go out wiht her friends all the time. What is funny, is that my wife never wanted to go out. I never really understood why that was. I always encouraged her to go out from time to time. Since we have 4 kids, I think it would be beneficial that she has a little "ME" time. I guess I never thought i would have to say something about it to her. Unfortunately when I did, it sounded like selfishness. I would say that I never go out and its not fair. Kinda immature now that I reflect on it.

In our last discussion of our relationship, it wasn't really a fight. It was definitely an emotional discussion of where we were. We both hadn't been sleeping (Partly because she works weekend nights 7p-7a) and for me just for the all the emotions i've been dealing with over the holidays. At the end of the day, I thought I pushed her to a breaking point. I asked her if she needed space and she said she didnt know. So instead of re-treating and taking a breathe i pressed forward and she thought she needed space to find out if she really loved me. Of course, it hurt. TONS. I tried getting up right then to just get some stuff and maybe run out of the house but she grabbed me and told me not to leave. I wasn't sure if she wanted me to really leave or if she was simply trying not to hurt my feelings. I was crying like a baby to be completely honest. I agreed that I would give her space and packed a few things. I still slept in our bed that night holding her the entire time. I never went to sleep but just sat their in our bed. I woke up early to make the kids lunches for school and left for work. I was hurting the entire day. She must have called me 4 times, texted me a few times etc. I wasn't sure if she wanted to talk or she was just checking up on me.

We are still talking but I don't know what to do. Im completely in love with her. In the space that I had (even though I didnt want it) I realized what a mess I was and maybe came to the resolution that I wasn't quite the husband I should be.

Im not looking for the magic potion that will allow the door to my house to be opened once again. Yesterday was really tough day for me. i woke up trying to resolute with the idea of space for her. I was trying for once to see it through her eyes so I was going to try and ignore her phone calls. But when im at work, I ahve no way to do that. and when i talked to her, I was breaking down. The kids were breaking down a little as well. my oldest daughter (9) was clutching my hat at night to go to sleep. I tried to be strong and not cry on the phone but I was unable to do so. What is really odd is that I never was like that before. She invited me over and I kissed and hugged my kids. we talked some trying to keep it light but also trying to adjust the issues we had. It was obvious that she wasn't sleeping much since I left. So I told her to go grab some sleep. (needless to say I wasn't sleeping as well) I played with my kids and helped straigten up around the house. (Something I never really for a large portion of our relationship. Man am I an idiot) and it turned into one of the best days we had in a long time.

But the question still remains, how do I handle space? what is the right thing to do? I don't think I can cutoff communication with her. What I am trying to do is make sure I dont talk about our issues when we do speak on the phone. trying to be strong and supportive even though its killing me inside.

My wife has given me some feedback. She didnt think I would take the whole need for space thing as bad as I have. I guess that tells me a few things as well. One, it proves to me that I need this woman in my life. Not because of the space. It guess it also proved that even though I told her I loved her all the time, that I did a poor job of actually showing her.

Ive been asked by all my friends when ive told them "if she cheated on me?" I've never been the type to question people on it but I'll admit it has crossed my mind before. She says she hasn't and I truly do believe her. I guess part of me getting to this point was to have her validate her love for me. I guess it would be unfair to me, to be in marriage if she truly didnt love me. Especially considering how much I love her.

Feel free to ask as many questions as you want to me. Ill try and fill in any blanks I can. the day I went to visit her I felt was a huge turning point in my life. Mainly because I realize I wasn't the person I thought I was. I've been trying to be truthful with my feelings in all my dealings since. I guess it was time for me to hear the ugly truth and start becoming a man instead of being grown up child......

Sorry for babbling

dalesman

9th January 2010, 12:59 AM

Hi K
I'm never convinced that a few days or weeks "space" is a good thing for a marriage as this only puts a physical distance between a coupe as well as an emotional distance. Those few weeks apart very often becomes permanent and talking through your problems becomes more difficult. Also the added stress makes sorting out the original problem worse. There is also a temptation to meet someone else when you have physically separated.

It does sound as though you might have left home when you didn't need to and the fact that your wife is calling you all the time is a good sign that she still wants you. If I were you mate I would make every attempt to return home asap and try to sort out your problems together . From what you have said I think there is every chance you can do this

koliver0821

9th January 2010, 04:47 AM

Thanks man. It means a ton to hear that. With the risk of sounding like a quack, I feel like ive had a big time awakening. Ive suddenly viewed all my relationships with the people around me and realized I was probably deeper in hole than I ever imagined. I feel like i have been re-born. I want to do everything in my power to show her my love. Its not enough to tell her. It means more that I show her and just as importantly my kids how much they mean to me and why they are special.

Im trying to be aware of her need for space by not pressuring her. Its not like shes holding anything in. In fact, I think its probably fair that I was holding things inside that I wouldn't have thought about until she said she needed space. If anything, I hate myself for having to hurt her so much that she needed space. Its not like I was terrible person to her but i know now that I wasn't keeping her on the pedalstal that she deserved. I was taking her love for granted and I didnt even realize it. I should also mention that we kissed and hugged too. It wasn't a deep kiss but I felt a spark and fairly certain she did but I didnt want to press it. Im going to keep talking to her and the other people in our life. Its time to be truthful about my feelings. and as I said before, its time for my actions to mean more than my words.

Raymond

9th January 2010, 10:30 AM

I agree with Dalesman. I don't think you should have left your home and kids. Giving space is how you handle your relationship not leaving home. Marriage is meant to be a very close thing and giving space seems to go against this but it's not. It's about respecting peoples space relationally not physically buzzing off. We all have our fences. Some of it is fear and we have to learn to lift the barriers up but some of it is legitimate protection of our person. You can do this this and this but you can't do that. If we barge in and do the thing that the other says you can't do you have invaded her space. We all want to get close but we need to respect the other. Not speaking is part of relating as well. Some cannot handle people who fill every second with talking. Others cannot handle it the other way. We are all different and marriage is about learning more and more about your partner, which you are doing now.

I think you have taken this thing about needing space as a threat when it may not be that. Try and find out more as to what she means and don't take everything as rejection or condemnation. Marriage is work sometimes and if you want to love her that includes understanding her as well. I don't see any grounds for your marriage failing just improving as you learn to understand more. Love isn't only about feelings it is about the will as well. Loving with our wills mean comittment which you will both need to make the marriage thrive.

Raymond

koliver0821

14th January 2010, 10:51 PM

i guess I heard some words that kind of terrify me right now. My wife said the words "I love you but not sure I'm IN love with you. She is using her space as a test. To see if she can live without me. Im feeling completely frazzled about this. I know I can't imagine my life without the love of my wife. And she is trying to figure out if she really does love me. or miss me. I take her phone calls as an indication that she misses me.

I've also come to realize that my wife has been depressed. I've asked her in the past whats wrong and she would just tell me she was tired or overwhelmed with everything that we have going on. But I should have seen those signs. Unfortunately, I was feeling the same thing myself. Financially we are struggling and I know she doesn't have a high self esteem right now. I feel like I have failed her.

The good news is that I've been back to the house for various reasons. Once to let her get some sleep after working a night. The other was to spend some time with her and the kids and we kissed (not deeply) but it felt right and we held each other all night while we were sleeping. We have agreed to get counseling. I've never been really good at talking about my feelings. I've changed that alot recently. Its amazing how clear I feel when I started doing this. Im not saying it makes me feel happy, just that I feel I have learned so much about myself. Even how selfish I was even though I didnt realize it. I guess I took the space that she wanted and I was the one that learned what I want most and that I need to prioritize whats really important to me.

I've learned I was not good at showing how much I loved my wife. I could say it all day but I need to show her how important she is to me and just how amazing she is. There are times that we lack for words right now as I am trying not to mentally drain her with our conversations. She sees that I've changed and I know that its making a difference. I used to be all frustrated when I would come home and it was never because of her. I've learned to relax a litttle (ok a lot) before I go into my house. She told me she notices. The only thing I don't know is if its making the whole difference.

I pretty much told her that I dont want to leave the house and that I will do everything possible to respect her space. Im not sure if she will go with that as of yet. But with our schedules being as they are, I will be there at least until Monday with her working so I can be with my kids and of course with her (although she will be sleeping).

Sorry if IM rambling on. I always feel better after talking. I've had some good long conversations with my wife and some tough ones with how this whole "space" thing is helping. I figure the only thing I can do right now is to shower the one I love with affection and tell her and most importantly show her, how important she is to me.

dalesman

15th January 2010, 12:07 AM

It sounds as if you are doing everything right and I still think the signs are hopeful . You mentioned your financial situation and problems in this area can very often put intolerable strain on a relationship. Is this an area that you could do anything to change ?

Ageing Grace

15th January 2010, 12:29 AM

Well done for realising you weren't really noticing how she was, or taking care of her :) That's a crucial thing. Sit her down and TELL her everything you've realised about how you took her for granted and so on (the more detail you can give, the better). Tell her what changes you have already made, as far as you're concerned. Ask her how she is, what she feels & what she wants. Listen to her.

It is heartbreaking - in this, the 21st century - how frequently we see husbands, whose marriage has broken down, suddenly becoming aware of how much their wife did for them that they never noticed. Fix this before you become one of them.

Good luck! :)

AG

koliver0821

15th January 2010, 05:34 AM

The financial side of things is really a huge issue. We are likely filing for Bankruptcy protection. We both werent smart as it relates to our spending. I wont lie, I did feel that some of the blame for the financial situation was because of her. Its not like I would rub it in her face but I think it added to my inability to do anything about it as well. Partof it is just the roles we basically took. I wasn't good with money and managing my own bills when we first met. I basically had my account and everything was paid for automatically. The damage to my credit was done in college. We got it together, thankfully for her. But mainly because she was our financial manager. she makes more money than I do and Not that Im ashamed of that, but since money has always been a problem for me and my family growing up, I was unable to stop some of the spending. Regrettably, we bought a house at the top of the market and we stretched ourselves to thin. The real problem if you ask me is that we tread water, but never really swim to shore. We talked to an attorney last year and tried a few different things but it didnt work out (Settlements etc). We will be doing the bankruptcy in February, or atleast filing it. Im hoping that will alleviate some of the stress we feel about making progress.

Grace- part of my issue was of not noticing what was going on was my own internal demons. Im hoping to god its not to late. Its not like I didnt notice what she has done for me. I guess I just didnt show her enough how much it meant to me. The other part is just needing to help out more. Lord knows Ive been trying even before this situation arose. The good news is she sees some of the changes first hand. Ive been "stepping up" as she would say especially in the emotional department. My only concern is that I'm doing the talking. almost all of the talking. I'm trying hard not to be suffocating her with my talk and presence but at the same time, Im trying to show her I am there for her. This is probably the hardest part for me. im trying not to be selfish but I crave her love. Im confused because just over a week ago we were having intimate sex and now I feel awkward because I don't know when its a good time to talk to her. (especially with our kids around).

Raymond

15th January 2010, 01:46 PM

You've probably expressed a lot of honest and good things Oliver. It will take time for her to work it through. She may be a bit confused at the change in you and may find it hard to believe it, so things may take a little time I would think. You have learned and gone through a lot. Hopefully it won't be wasted.

Raymond

koliver0821

15th January 2010, 03:58 PM

Raymond, thanks my man. I told her last night that the changes im making aren't because of her need for space. They are changes that I realize that need to be done in order to fill her heart with more love. Actions speak louder than words. I think your right, even recently, she was surprised at how much i've changed. She said she even noticed a change prior to us having this "situation". Although she didnt say it right away, I could tell she wasn't sure how long this would continue. I told her its a change. that it is possible I could fall but that I would promise I would do everything possible to make her feel my love.

Ive pretty much had a couple of good days followed by bad days. my bad days are not where we fight. Cause I dont think we are fighting, its just a emotionally draining have "real" conversations. Especially for me since, ive never just let my emotions go. Maybe Im being selfish but I want her, scratch that, need her to talk to me. I feel low when she doesn't add things. She's always asking what im thinking and i guess thats a good thing. But as other people have said in other threads, we have a history and I know my wife loves me and cant stand when im hurting but im not sure thats really helping her and my gut feeling is that

The worst part for me is determining what to tell the kids when Im not there. I dont think i've told them enough how important that they are to me and man Im I trying hard now. Im not suggesting I was neglectful, I made some things into chores that really shouldn't have been. I feel sick to my stomach when I think about that. Like I said, ive learned a lot about myself.

Raymond

15th January 2010, 07:58 PM

You are doing a lot of soul searching and are making changes. She has noticed. You sound like a man that will follow through given the opportunity. It is probably exhausting for you but don't give up. You will need to relax together if you can to keep up your strength but not so much that you forget what you are trying to do. I am glad that some things are registering with her but as said she needs time to adjust to the new you.

Raymond

koliver0821

15th January 2010, 08:57 PM

We've agreed to counseling both for couples and for own selves. When I spoke to her this morning, she gave me hope. She said there was slim chance we couldn't figure it out so maybe she is really considering me. Im afraid of the space though. I can't fill the space thats been left. I have 4 kids that mean the world to me and I need to be a part of their lives. I've discussed moving back in with a caveat but im not sure its really registering. I want to be there to help her with our kids. I've done homework, dinners, breakfast lunches, getting them ready for school, and to bed. Trying to take some of the responsibilities off of her shoulders. Especially during this trying time. I wasn't trying to force anything. Im making suggestions and pulling back if its seems it causing a problem. Its exhausting only because she is always running through my mind.

I know its important to take care of myself and I must admit, im having some difficulty eating and sleeping. Its more like I can't seem to eat anything and Im too restless at night, even with her right next to me. I really hope that therapy helps me on the individual side as well on the couple side.

Ageing Grace

15th January 2010, 10:00 PM

We've agreed to counseling both for couples and for own selves. When I spoke to her this morning, she gave me hope. She said there was slim chance we couldn't figure it out

That's such hopeful news, I shouted when I read your post! :o

The next stage is likely to be tricky, Koliver, and to take a bit of work - for both of you. You really must take sensible care of yourself. See your doc if you can't sleep and/or are having anxiety attacks. You don't want to blow everything by becoming a gibbering wreck :p

I think it would be helpful if the two of you can keep a relaxed "normal" dialogue going - to balance the intensive "relationship" work. Just friendly little chats about practicalities, how your days were, family news and stuff :)

If this feels difficult to begin with, just stick to a few everyday questions about the kids.

Wishing you both well.
AG

koliver0821

15th January 2010, 10:18 PM

Thanks AG- But knowing my wife as well as I do, I just have this feeling that she was saying something positive to me since I was hurting. The counseling I need regardless. I've lost 10 pounds in just over a week. I dont really sleep, its more like my batteries run out and thats it. Im staying as strong as I can for the kids. Only my oldest who is 9 is aware of the difficulties that we are having. I really need to focus on them as well.

I think im well aware of what my wife was dealing with before this. Im feeling overwhelmed with everything. not certain where im going to be sleeping day to day. Luckily my parents live somewhat close by so im not totally out on the streets. We dont have any extra money set aside to handle this type of emergency. (Or any emergency for that matter).

My wife did agree to have a date night with me last week and we have scheduled it. I kinda feel like a teenager again in that respect, but its still freaking me out. I understand and try desperately to keep the talk to the practicalities. We even trade little barbs at our situation which feels awkward but it sadly puts me in a more comfortable place.

Believe me I know this will take two to tango. The deepest part of our conversation last night was to tell her she has to be willing to try. I didnt say she had to meet me halfway. but if she is willing to receive my love, then she will. I have tons of love to give her, even if its to make up for lost time. in some ways I feel even more connected to her from an emotional standpoint. Unfortunately, there are days that Im feeling so alone even with her right there.

Sorry for being emotional. My head is killing me right now and this is giving me some release.

koliver0821

16th January 2010, 05:54 PM

Well, the good news today is that I was able to get enough sleep to feel rested this morning. I feel a little mad at myself for yelling at my kids to try and get them to bed. It was the biggest struggle ive had in month getting them to bed. We watched the movie "UP" and I think they were just wired but I was cooked. The movie was shown at the school my kids go to and I saw a few of our friends. I dont know what it is, but I felt awkward. Actually what the hell am I talking about. I do know why that was. I feel incomplete without my wife. Whats funny is that the only difference last night from lots of other Friday nights where my wife works is the disconnect I feel. I dont know if she feels out of sorts without me. Maybe that's what she is looking for. However with the kids being in the picture, I just wont cant do that.

You know your hurting when everything has meaning. Songs on the radio, pictures you walk by, the parts of movies you see. I said that to my wife that I hear things more clearly if that makes sense. Not just from her, but from everything.

I just hope my wife is willing to make the effort. You know, ive done more thinking than I would like to admit. Thats why I havent focused on what was going wrong in the short term but really looked back at things I've done (and not done) over the years. I know I shouldn't expect things to change overnight as the problems we have didnt exactly surface overnight. I just know its starting to affect me in my everyday life. Work, personal relationships, my confidence (especially my confidence) are all being affected right now. Luckily, I have learned a lesson from past experiences. Ive talked to my boss and told him I am having some issues. Bascailly telling him, not to load more work on me as Im feeling stretched thin already.

I will keep trying to love her more and more. Showing her how important she is as well as how attractive she is. I know that my wife has had self image problems all her life. I want her to know that I desire her body as well as her heart. Of course that is difficult when she needs space. The tough part is how she can get that space.

Whether Im around the house or not. When Im not there, she will be responsible for getting the kids ready for school. (Dressed, breakfast, etc) Always driving them back and forth to their events. Starting with homework and dinner and showers. The whole cycle. In the past, I was getting home from work or the the gym and I was beat. I know I could have, NO should have been more helpful.

I have no doubt that my wife can handle it as she is a strong willed person. But, she wont have much alone time to be alone. Im getting the sense that her alone time is just to relax without any distractions. I probably overstepped my boundaries suggesting I should live in the house but be willing to give her that space. Im not sure it was received well so I backed off that.

Is it ironic that the way she felt before this is the way I feel now? Its amazing how much can change in over a month. I was always under the mindset that we would work it out. No matter what. I just hope that in the back of her mind, that she has the same mindset too.

Sorry for rambling. I look forward to your comments as they strengthen my resolve and add a perspective that I may not see yet. (though ive done a ton of searching from every angle!!)

koliver0821

16th January 2010, 06:19 PM

That's such hopeful news, I shouted when I read your post! :o

The next stage is likely to be tricky, Koliver, and to take a bit of work - for both of you. You really must take sensible care of yourself. See your doc if you can't sleep and/or are having anxiety attacks. You don't want to blow everything by becoming a gibbering wreck :p

I think it would be helpful if the two of you can keep a relaxed "normal" dialogue going - to balance the intensive "relationship" work. Just friendly little chats about practicalities, how your days were, family news and stuff :)

If this feels difficult to begin with, just stick to a few everyday questions about the kids.

Wishing you both well.
AG

Grace- Thank you for your post. If there is one constant message from my friends it is to make sure I take care of myself. I hear them and I've reached out for help. But practicing that is not easy for me. I truly have no desire to eat. I do eat some small things but feel sick usually after I do. I am doing a daily regiment of pushups to help me feel better about myself and to release some endorphins. Which is defintely helping. The only bad news is it wont keep me from being a gibbering wreck:). in the past when my wife and I used to talk about my feelings, she used to joke that I was a tin man. (I guess in retrospect, she wasn't joking....) Now, Im full of emotions and its hard not to cry. I'm not crying at things that hurt only. Things that feel good. Little messages or phone calls from my wife. These are the things I miss the most although I probably overlooked it before this happened. I didnt realize how good it made me feel.

Ive been working hard on staying away from the emotional draining conversations, though my wife doesn't make it easy by asking me the dreaded "What are you thinking about?" quesiton. (Its not dreaded but if she's asking, im telling....) I mean of course, since she's asking im more than willing to talk. I guess I have a pit in my stomach and pain in my head that wants to know what she is thinking. I do ask and she said she just can't explain herself. That's when I back off from the conversation. Im just afraid she's holding back because it might hurt me more.

Ageing Grace

17th January 2010, 03:09 AM

koliver0821

17th January 2010, 03:32 AM

This might be a stupid thought, so forgive me ... When you're telling her what you're thinking, do you make it a dialogue? I mean, is it peppered with feedback questions like "... do you think?", "... what would you say?" and so on?

Speaking of which, thank you for your feedback :)

And eat! While you're this stressed it doesn't matter whether it's all pie & chips, all chocolate, all cheesy wotsits or all sushi :D A moderately active man needs 3,000 calories a day so get 'em down you! (That's an order, heh)

Well done with the push-ups. Must follow your example!

Continuing good wishes for both of you -
AG

Not a stupid question. Yes i do ask my questions after releasing my emotional bombs.... Ok thats a bit theatrical. Im really new to letting my emotions go. I admit im not always getting feedback from her but mostly because I need to tell her whats going on with me. She's the only person I feel safe enough to tell my true feelings to. Even if she is "tearing my heart into pieces". I know and she said thats not her intention and has always said its her fault too. But I could care less about her having faults that may have contributed to our problems cause I care for her much more than that. The one thing I can do is focus on the emotional part of our relationship and build effective communication with her. (sorry that sounds cold when talking about a living relationnship but truly, its something I've been working on.)

As for the food thing. I've been eating but not exactly eating well. To make matters worse is I've been on a weight loss program before this where I lost 40 pounds. I used to be very active but one knee surgery and I pretty much gained weight like nothing. Ive been really good for 2 months but im afraid I will start eating crap like I used to. I've got kids so its not easy to avoid those fast food places we have in the USA. Thankfully, I have a few special routes to my house that I can avoid the sight of a golden arches.

Now if I can only muster the mental strength to do some situps.....:D.

Oh well babysteps. Thanks for listening. I was having a bad day, getting stressed out by the kids and the wifey listened to me. Listened to me cry but like I said, I feel better now. In the past, I would have held that in, and got angry at everyone.

Raymond

17th January 2010, 06:36 PM

koliver0821

17th January 2010, 11:01 PM

I've been wondering about this need for space thing. You said somewhere in your posts, although I can't seem to find it now, that her need for space just appears to be relaxing out or something. I can't remember the words you use. You seem to imply that the reason was different from what you first assumed. That got me thinking is it a protection from pressure she is needing? Just a thought. Do you think you bring a pressure on her without realising it? Are there ways you can release pressure from her? I'ts not necessarily doing all the work for her, just protecting her from the things than can get to her perhaps. We all need a certain amount of pressure. That's part of work and life, but sometimes there are pressures that can get through which we really don't need. I don't know. I could be on the wrong track, but there you go.

Raymond

Hi Raymond, you are right in some respects. I think some of the space she needs is space but even with that said, she did use the words "I love you but not sure i'm in love with you." I can tell you that she is not very happy wiht the way things are right now for her. She actually said to me last night that our financial issues were not my fault. I guess that she is saying that makes me feel a little better but at the same time, I feel like I failed her because we were unable to manage this situation. If I had been stronger, or more willing to take an active role in managing our finances, perhaps what we are dealing with wouldn't be an issue.

Yesterday was a down day for me. I felt really low and the only person I feel comfortable talking about my feelings with is my wife. (Ok my parents too, but they seem to be trying to fix things when all I want to do is talk) I ended up having an anxiety attack while shopping with the kids. I started thinking about the things I will need to do like food shopping on my own. I dont know why but all of it bothered me. Started getting chest pains and the whole ball of wax. I get home and its one comical run of errors. Kids running around the house screaming, my youngest spills her drink all over the carpet I cleaned a few hours ago and my oldest daughter falls because shes being chased by her brother and sister. I started crying like a baby right there in the living room as Im trying to clean up the spill. Thankfully my wife came down stairs and we talked. I told her that my heart is broken. I know she needs space, but it truly is hurting me. The talk did me some good. Gave me a chance to clear my emotions and she said that we are going to try and make it work. (though, my wife fully admitted she hates seeing me broken down like this so Im of course wondering if she is just saying to build me up more.)

The other news to report for today is that I made it to church for the first time in awhile. Took the kids with me to the early mass. I did tear up for some reason during the mass as I was sitting there with my kids but I really did feel stronger after I left. My wife worked last night and made plans to stay at a hotel for the day. I am ok with it although, being a little selfish, i would love to see her tonight.

As for the release from pressure, I do believe thats a big part of it, unfortunately, I think part of it is also being there to relieve her in the physical sense as well. Its tough managing a household of 6. I dont think we really are well organized and I think that causes us both stress. Ive been working on it but its not my forte. My wife was good at it but as I mentioned, she became overwhelmed and things had fallen off (because I wasn't able, or unwilling to pick up the slack.)

Ageing Grace

18th January 2010, 10:27 AM

You really are beating yourself up about everything, aren't you Koliver? Getting even more stressed isn't going to help either of you, you know. I'll have to keep this very short - have you tried getting your doc to prescribe something for you? In the UK we usually have Citalopram for anxiety; it's called Celexa in the US. It can take a couple of weeks to kick in, but helps most people. Good that you've gone back to church, too, your prayers will help :)
All the best,
AG

koliver0821

18th January 2010, 11:25 AM

AG- Absolutely. I'm seeing my Doc on Thursday. They wont prescribe anything to me without seeing me first. Its probaby a good thing. I;ve hear of Celexa and probably heading in that direction. But its only Monday so I will see how things go. Until then, you all are my prescription.

So get this, im talking to my wife last night over the phone. I really tried hard not to call her or bother her but our kids kept asking if they coud talk to her. So I relented and gave her call. She didnt answer. I sent a text to let her know the kids were hoping to speak to her before they went to sleep. DIdnt hear anything for like an hour. Finally she calls and lets me know she was sleeping and apologizes for not calling earlier. I'll admit I was a little saddened that she didnt call right back. (I mean how can she be sleeping... Just kidding. Its these things I wouldnt even think about 3 weeks ago.) But of course, I feel a cold vibe on the phone with her. I can tell when her hearts not into talking. Basically shuffled the phone from child to child until it was my turn.

When she starts talking to me, she said she is interested in going wiht a group of nurses from work to Haiti. I didnt really say anything except "really?" more like in unsettled way and she kinda got icy. I couldnt help myself. I mean jesus, she is thinking of spending time helping unfortunate people of Haiti and all I can do is think about my family. I guess Im lacking perspective and of course I start talking about logistics of the trip. Who would watch the kids while im at work? How long would you leave for? How could we make that work? etc. She seemed agitated that I would put up any opposition to her leaving.

I finally can change the subject of the conversation as Im putting my youngest to sleep. She can hear her mommy on the phone and says simply, "miss you momma" and my wife tells me she couldn't go to Haiti because of the kids. Now, again, I makes me a feel a lil better but truthfully I wouldn't have minded if she said I would miss our family. She than asks if Im ok. I try to be short but not in a bad way. tell her the day was ok. Ups and downs, yada yada yada.... she was listening to me. It felt good. The best part was before we hang up and she tells me she loves me. She tells me she can't wait to come home and give me a hug. Jesus, I will give this woman what ever she wants LOL. Actually I told her that! (well I guess besides space......)

Raymond

18th January 2010, 03:50 PM

Sounds hopeful Oliver. Wanting to go to Haiti does show she has a heart and a strength there, but obviously it is not possible with the kids. She know that you love her. She has a lot on her plate it seems. I think it can be all worked out. You must find ways to take the pressure from her. Can't wait to come home and give you a hug doesn't sound bad to me.

Raymond

koliver0821

19th January 2010, 02:43 PM

Thanks Raymond. I've been trying to figure out ways to take pressure off of her. To be honest, I needed to step things up for awhile. I've been in a rut/ depressed for awhile before this even happened. I just didnt really see it. I was just living day by day and it showed in almost everything I did. Now, here is still my problem: How do I take more responsibility for things to take things off of her plate while at the same time giving her the space she requires?

If there was any good news from yesterday was that she told me she did miss me and the kids while she was gone for just that one day. We ended up watching a movie together while the kids were playing games in the next room. (I should suggest people watch the movie "Lovely Bones" though probably not in the "emotional condition" I was in!). Small aside to my emotional condition. I used to laugh (in a loving way) at my wife when she would cry during some movies. Of course know, we are both crying at this movie and we are kind of laughing at each other though my crying was part actual hurt)

My wife also saw a therapist yesterday and she said she felt good after. It wasn't sure what the protocol is when asking someone about their therapy session. I asked how it went but didnt want to really dive in but she did give me small details without me having to press her. I stayed away from anything hard hitting. They pretty much concluded that she is/was depressed.

Today will be our first couples counseling. I told my wife I'm a little afraid of what we might learn. Maybe being in front of someone neutral that she may feel comfortable saying somethings in the session that she didnt feel right saying to me. I guess that is one of my biggest fears. That and potentially learning that she "cares for me deeply" but love is another story. I know she's told me she loves me but not sure she is "in love" with me. So I suppose she already brought that to the table. however, learning that the love she has for me has faded entirely will cause me some unbearable pain. Im fairly certain that is why I have been crying so much. (that and working my brain into a frenzy about it) I love this girl with all of my heart and I did a crappy job showing it to her. I guess you could say Im trying to make up for lost time. However, I think it hurts more knowing that might not feel the same way. (basically what she was going through when I wasn't showing her how much I loved her). The major difference is I really do love her. My love for her never wavered. Although I probably took our relationship for granted thinking we will always be together.

This week should be full of information and self discovery as well. I have my first counseling session in my life on Thursday. Here is to hoping they don't check me in!!

Ageing Grace

19th January 2010, 05:57 PM

Wow, you really are on a journey, aren't you?! Just wanted to send you my good wishes for today's session and for Thursday :)

koliver0821

19th January 2010, 09:18 PM

Thanks Grace -

First session is the books. All I can say is Uggg. Not really in bad way. Though on a really positive note is I confirmed my own need for therapy LOL. The counselor was "really happy" to hear I have my own scheduled for Thursday and that I obviously have a lot to say! Other good news was that I didnt hear anything earth shattering. Nothing that my wife hadn't already shared with me. Hearing my wife discuss our relationship before and after marriage and kids was somewhat eye opening. She finally said I have a lot of growing up to do. Once again, nothing I hadn't said to myself or that my wife hadn't said to me but hearing someone speak of these things in the past made me think about how bad my wife's perception of our relationship.

I heard all of the bad parts but I was wanting to hear her describe the good parts. I guess therapy really isnt about that. I mean your not there to discuss what is working. Your really there to discuss what is not working. Sadly, the only thing the meeting really indicated is that my wife needs space. Space for her to get herself right before she can work on getting other things right (like our relationship). I wanted to have this lady wave a magic wand and we are fixed. Or at least on the road to recovery.

As I mentioned in the post before this, my wife had already gone through the pain im feeling right now. At some level anyway. She had become numb to some things and was going out to avoid being home with me. The good news is she was looking for someone else. Only looking for herself. It sucks to hear that she was having this pain for awhile (over a year). I've been having problems coming to grips with that.

Like I said, I know im no angel. So with every post thats on here, please remember there is the other side. A side that I Love so very much and hurts me more than she will ever know that I had caused her so much suffering. The rest of my time on earth may be used to ease that suffering while asking for forgiveness.

I also learned that not everything was my fault.... Not like I really thought that but hearing my wife say she wasn't perfect made me feel a lil better. (Even though I do think she is perfect. Im not saying that cause I dont believe it. I know people make mistakes (maybe me more than others) I really have no one else to blame for my current relationship issue but myself.

the last thing I learned and it was just as we were about to leave, that most of my issues causing the problems are related to the problems that my parents have.... Not that im looking to place blame.....

koliver0821

19th January 2010, 10:54 PM

Sorry one more thing to add. I guess the reason I've been so emotional recently is that I take the fact that she needs to "find" her love for me. It feels so final and cold. I know she cares about me so I guess that is a plus. She truly does care and hates to see me hurting. Obviously, I'm glad that she doesn't want me to hurt. Im hoping that me hurting is not keeping her from getting what she needs as well. The counselor said this is a beginning, not an end. No one is filing for divorce right now and my wife hasn't said those words either. So I guess we are working on it. Im trying to put a positive on this as so much emotion has been coming from me.

Ageing Grace

20th January 2010, 01:33 AM

You are taking a constructive attitude, Koliver. I feel sure that, whatever the eventual outcome of your story, you will gain a lot from it as a person - your wife, too, if she sticks with the process :)
most of my issues causing the problems are related to the problems that my parents have
This doesn't surprise me at all! It's nothing to do with "blaming" your parents, of course - as children we believe our parents are ideal. So we copy them. What we learn, about how to be an adult, is what they showed us. This happens totally unconsciously until someone points it out ... so you're lucky the counsellor did! Understanding your parents' problems lets you see what beliefs & behaviours you learned from them - and start figuring out how to do things better :) I won't kid you it's an easy job. But I can promise you it leads to greater happiness. And it's interesting.

Thanks for updating. All the best.
AG

koliver0821

20th January 2010, 02:50 AM

You are taking a constructive attitude, Koliver. I feel sure that, whatever the eventual outcome of your story, you will gain a lot from it as a person

You know I said this today as well. I told the therapist that I really want to reconcile with my wife. That is my goal and what Im looking for therapy to help. I told my wife that I expect that our journey would allow her to see the benefits of the new (and improved me). The me that she truly deserves.

Raymond

20th January 2010, 09:48 AM

Raymond

20th January 2010, 09:56 AM

koliver0821

20th January 2010, 11:13 AM

Oiliver about being in love. That is a gift that we start out with in marriage where we didn't do anything, but there comes a point that we have to make it oursleves as adults. If we hit a bad patch we can still get it back by working on it. It can be done even when one didn't initially feel it. I hope she will be able to see that. The latter love is more solid as it lasts forever because it is in our control.

Raymond

Thanks Raymond. I too hope my wife understands that the love we had when we were younger also changes. im concerned she is looking (searching) for that love for me when it has changed.

I see the need for space as a practical request but the logistics of this change in our situation is quite different. Obviously, i want her to get herself right and Im praying and hoping that she does.

Im trying to figure out if the space she needs isnt just for her, but to see what happens to me. Im trying very hard not to be selfish (and need her round me) and emotionally draining. All I know is I want it to work out and keep communicating with her.

Thanks for listening. I have a feeling I will be posting again soon....

koliver0821

20th January 2010, 11:22 AM

Sorry to go backwards. This thread moves so fast. About taking the pressure off. This is something you need to find out by watching and understanding her. It may not necessarily be lots of work. May be emotional protection or something else. You have to work it out. What are the things that cause her real pressure and how can you alleviate that.

Raymond

Well most of the real pressure that I can see is the responsibilities of driving our little cherubs everywhere. I truly believe we have a time management issue. It wasn't as difficult last year since the kids werent in their activities 4 days a week. I can even notice the kids are stressing from all the rushing around. Of course, it would probably be a good idea to ask for help but at the time, we weren't in that place to ask for it. (We aren't very good at asking for help, but are always willing to help others)

Raymond

20th January 2010, 01:58 PM

koliver0821

20th January 2010, 04:05 PM

That can be a pressure not asking for help. We always teamed up with others and shared the lifts when we could if other children were going to the same place. That is an avenue you could work on. It could help a lot with the pressure. If you are both under pressure the kids will feel it.

There could be other more subtle areas where she could be relieved. Sometimes it can be emotional pressure handling certain phonecalls or something. I don't know. Just a thought.

So you suspect she might be asking for space to see what happens to you. What makes you think that? Does she think you are too dependent on her? Is this the pressure?

Raymond

Regardless of my wifes current level of love for me, I know she cares for me a great deal. I know even before the event that caused us to "separate", that I've been down and feeling hurt. I did cry to her before telling her I didnt blame her from wanting to get out with her friends but I was feeling jealous of that time as I want to spend that time with her. It was one of the only times Ive been able to communicate my feelings for what was going on. She told me she hated seeing me that way. And she actually stopped going out. She told me she was kinda sick of the whole scene with her cousin and that she can always spend time watching movies instead of going out to bars and such.

Does she think that I'm too dependent on her? That's a good question. I wouldn't say that she thinks that but I heard from her yesterday in the session that she feels like everything is on her. So I guess it makes me feel like i'm dependent on her. I think her concern isn't about whether or not I could handle the responsibilities. Right now, she is concerned about my emotional state. I tell her when im sad. Tell her when im happy, or scared. Honestly, I dont think she is used to it since I really didnt do it before.

And im only suggesting that part of it is to see what happens to me. I really believe she is wondering what will happen to her.

Raymond

20th January 2010, 09:05 PM

The key phrase I think is that she feels everything is on her.

I wonder what things they are? Does she feel she is responsible for your emotional health for instance or could it be something else? I think it is worth finding out. Just sorting that will be a massive stride forward.

I think you are both under pressure in different ways and any weight that can be taken off you will be a bonus. I'm not advocating a passive lifestyle just pinpointing where uneccesary pressure is coming from.

Raymond

koliver0821

20th January 2010, 11:59 PM

No, when she said everything is on her, she feels that our roles as they are currently situated leave her with lots of responsibilities. Mainly, financially, she is our manager. I work M-F so during the week when she isn't working, she is obviously the sole care provider for the kids. Obviously when I get home, I do help, but looking back, I probably could have done more to help her. The weekends is when it changes. She is lucky enough to only have to work 3 days a week. (Friday-Sunday) but they are 12 hour graveyard shifts. She makes a lot of money. More than I do. I personally do not have an issue with her making more money than me. I dont really see it as a contest but I think my wife believes she is the breadwinner and would like not to have to work all the time. Unfortunately, we both have to work based on our financial situation.

Approximately 4 years ago, I had a rough conversation with my wife. We were buying a house that I knew was stretching us to thin. I know my wife was aware of just how far we would be stretched but I dont think she understood the toll it would take on us. I basically said that if we are going to move into this bigger house, we both have to understand that we will have to continue working at our current pace. We could have stayed in our modest first home and she could have easily cut her hours and we could manage our finances.

I had written a letter on the last day possible to drop our offer on this new house. I had signed it and only needed my wife to sign it as well. Needless to say it didnt go over well. Basically, it tore her heart out that she couldn't get this house, or that I wasn't supporting it. The deadline passed. And we had our new house.....

Its one of my moments in my life that I wish I was stronger in my stance about the house. It hurt me to see my wife crying about not getting this house and this was the dream house she always envisioned. Whats ironic about this, my wife actually said to me this summer, "why didn't I smack some sense into her about buying this house" I didnt have the heart to say I did try.

Not sure why it was important for me to tell you this. The next couple of days Im expecting it to be rough. Ive basically lived in our house for the past week based on her work schedule and such and tomorrow and Friday night will be my first time not coming home in over a week. I do have a therapy session on Thursday, so I suppose the timing isn't completely bad. I just know im heading for a little low. Please be patient with me if I start going all stream of consciousness on you all!

Ageing Grace

21st January 2010, 01:02 AM

koliver0821

21st January 2010, 02:31 AM

Stream away, Oliver :) As Raymond said, you're moving along very fast and I think this is mainly due to your willingness to be introspective and to question your own thoughts/actions. I hope your wife shares your moral strength - you actually sound like a well-matched couple to me, but this process can be hard going.

Your story about the house is intriguing - or, rather, your remark: "Not sure why it was important for me to tell you this." I'd like to share my thoughts on possible reasons; you'll know if they're anywhere near accurate - if not, then ignore me!

The house purchase shows:
You couldn't face disappointing your wife ...
Even though you foresaw financial problems;
She now recognises the issues you foresaw,
And implies you were wrong to allow it.

So: Even though you both agree that she carries most of the responsibility for finance & practicalities, she feels that you "failed" in a responsibility to prevent the house purchase - which is the most impactful decision you've made together. Also, you agreed to the purchase even though you knew it would cause problems. You did this for emotional reasons, not practical ones.

I wonder if, when she says she feels the burden of responsibility, this is what underlies that feeling? In an emotional sense, she was responsible for your decision not to drop the offer, because she upset you by crying. The result of her tears has been 3 years of undending slog. That's a terrible price to pay for crying over a dream.

I wonder, too, whether your critical and less-than-helpful behaviour has been underpinned by resentment over that night? Right or wrong, you allowed yourself to be swayed over a huge matter - by her tears. Was that weak of you? Are you furious that she "blackmailed" you into paying the asking price? Could you be annoyed with yourself, that you weren't stronger that night?

IF (and it's a big if), the scenario I've described resonates with you - and with your wife, if you can broach it - I'd suggest the event of the house purchase, and its ongoing cost to you both, might have left you feeling not only resentful, but also with a fear of being emotional together. At some level, she could be feeling that showing her vulnerability leads to pain & drudgery; you could be feeling that being kind to her yields the same.

Just a thought. Feel totally free to rubbish me & my psychology :D

Grace, nothing to trash here. My wife doesn't feel resentment towards me over allowing her to buy the house. I feel guilt that I wasnt stronger. Unfortunately, the timing couldn't have been worse with the house. I was literally in the perfect Sugar Honey Ice Tea storm. We had a great offer on our house. It fell through on inspection. The issue was actually a state code violation (which should have been uncovered when we had our home inspection when we bought the house) so we needed to fix it before selling it. We lost $25k in equity replacing the wiring for our old house. I was out of work (I received a large severance check in the spring which we spread out over the months. I got pulled over for DUI and lost my license. (sadly, it was the first time I had been drinking in over 5 months. And it was for my wife's 30th birthday. THe only saving grace was that she was in the car with me). I know I did have resentment over the purchase. The result of us buying this house, kept me from standing up to her on financial matters. I back down in confrontations regarding money. (Sadly, not unlike my parents)

I guess the real reason Im telling you about the house is because I feel it was a very important part of our life. I told her I didnt want to be house poor. I wanted her to be able to cut back and spend more time at home with the kids. It just didnt work out that way.

In a very real sense, my wife completes me. I have this uncontrollable confidence since she has been part of my life. She is strong in areas where im not as strong. Im also strong in areas where she could use help. We do bicker. I always considered it communication. I guess I should have asked my wife what she thought of it....

To be honest, my attitude towards the house obviously changed when we moved in. I suppose the financial difficulties we have are related to us stretching ourselves too thin. I think my less than ideal behavior kind of started at the time of me losing my license. I went into a funk. Try finding a job when you don't have a license. Especially if you dont live in a city. I was in a funk. Of course, my wife helped me. In fact, I had a friend that I worked with who drove me to the train station and back. That was a life saver. That in itself probably saved my marriage. I mean, can you imagine my wife driving with 3 kids under the age of 5 to pick up her husband 30 minutes away at a train station during rush hour? My wife has told me she tried to get me to see someone (therapist) back then. I just wasnt willing or didnt think I had a problem. Ofcourse, my wife could see the difference. I just wasnt able to.

Raymond

21st January 2010, 09:51 AM

koliver0821

21st January 2010, 03:27 PM

Whats coming out of this and what AG has pointed out is that you should have acted on your instincts about the new house and not gone ahead at that time. She is weak in that area therefore you need to stay strong. I think you needed to take the lead then as a man. Maybe she feels vulnerable as you don't take the lead.

Anyway that is water under the bridge but I think it does show some valid points. The present pressures stem from that and caused you to be over extended even putting a strain on your marriage. She would desperately want to work less hours and somehow you have to go for this if it is possible. She needs to be a full time mother I think.

Raymond

I agree, that she wants to cut her hours. I want her to cut her hours. I know that she still wants to work though. I've been talking about her doing that for awhile but, going back to the finances, we wouldn't be able to make up for lost income. I even suggested that working days might be better considering she wont feel like a zombie on her days off. Basically a normal sleeping pattern.

As for news from last night. My wife ended up having last night off. Since she had it off, she ended up spending time at her cousins last night. Apparently, her cousins friend just found out her fiance has been cheating on her. So they were going to watch a movie at her cousins with this friend. Apparently, on the way over, this friend decided she didnt want to go out. My wife still went to my cousins.

I find out my wife was pretty much ignored at her cousin's house. She sat and played with her cousin's kids while her cousin was working on some birthday invitiations on the computer. They eventually decide to go out to grab something small to eat and according to my wife, her cousin was dumping all over her husband. I feel bad for my wife as she wants to be there for her cousin since she was there for her, but my wife feels awkward, especially when her cousin and husband argue in front of her. I know more about my wife's cousin and I do like her as a person. She really does have a heart of gold. But my wife has told me other things that make me weary of any advice she might be getting from her. I spoke to my wife about this last night. I don't have a ton of close friends. I have really one friend I can talk about this to. However, I told him I dont want advice. I just want him to listen to me. Perhaps provide some feedback or some personal experience.

Her cousin doesn't know me that well. In fact I have only met her a total of 8 times in my life. Whats funny is that she was there the night my wife and I had our first experience together. Though, whats not funny is that even though I didnt talk to her cousin, (other than to introduce myself) apparently, her cousin didnt like me. Im sure that opinion of me didnt get any better when my wife re-connected with her and the bashing sessions were done.

All in all, we still had a good night. We had a good talk. It was heartfelt and surprisingly, not emotionally draining. We held each other pretty much all night. It felt incredibly good for me. the only unfortunate moment was her sister is going through a rough patch with her husband as well. So at 1am, she was on the phone right next to me talking about her sisters issues. I've known that her sister and husband have been dealing with their own issues. I feel bad that my wife is caught in the middle of that as well. Im afraid my brother in law is thinking my wife is the cause of the problem. Or at the very least, part of the problem. I heard some really good things about me from my wife and her sister. It made me feel good. Especially since I am not sure if my changes are having any effect on her.

Raymond

21st January 2010, 07:21 PM

You're doing okay Oliver.

Watching these other marriage problems may put hers in perspective.

You both have to work from where you are whatever the past.

Raymond

koliver0821

21st January 2010, 07:32 PM

Something else about last night I wanted to add. When I've been at home, I've been sleeping in our bed. Basically, we have "spooned" every night I've been there. Tuesday night, my wife worked which required her to need sleep the next day. I asked my boss if I could "work" from home though I didnt go into specifics as to why. I basically handled everything my wife would. I got the kids up, made lunches, breakfast got them dress. Drove them to school. Picked them up. I did work for spurts during the day. I went to the gym for an hour with 2 of my kids. Did some food shopping, cooked dinner and then picked up my other kids from school. In the interim, my wife called me up to talk. Just to see how my day was going. She asked me to lay next to her and I did. We talked about us but most of it was just friendly talking about our days. She was excited I made dinner. (It wasn't anything extravagant. Baked Mac and Cheese) We cuddled a lot and she even asked me to rub her back. I guess I was already rubbing her back but not intensely. just very lightly. I wont lie, it turned me on and based on her sounds, I think she really enjoyed it as well. Nothing more came of it and I didnt let her know how much I enjoyed the time together. I got the kids dress for their dance class and she found out she didnt have to work while I was at the dance hall.

In some ways, I was thinking she might tell me to go my parents house but as I mentioned in the earlier post, she ended up getting invited to her cousins. She called me twice while she was over there (mainly because she being ignored and once to tell me she was on her way home) I got the kids to sleep relatively early and was by all accounts sleeping when she came home. I woke up when I hear the garage door. She came up the stairs and she kissed me. For a second she opened her mouth to fully kiss me but I she stopped before. I was just expecting a peck since thats what we have been doing but I truly felt more was coming from her.

Here is why Im telling you this. the last time I had a gut feeling I told her that I was confused by the constant contact from her. the very next day, she didnt call me at all. Not even a text message or anything. Not until she was getting the kids ready for bed. So I told her last night that enjoyed the time with her last night. I said I especially liked the kiss cause she initiated it. Now im wondering if maybe I should I keep my "mouth shut" so to speak?

Out of force of habit, I call her as a wake up call in the morning. I usually leave for work before she and the kids wake up. I did the same today. She has now called me 3 times already today. I love it! But im afraid to say anything about it. Im trying to be patient. We talked about this being the start of our "new" relationship for lack of better words.

For me, I think constantly communicating is the only true way to fix what was wrong in our relationship. Tonight and tomorrow I will be staying at my parents house to give her some space. I felt tears welling up in my eyes as I left this morning. Kissing my kids as they laid asleep in bed telling them I wont see them until Saturday evening. Im going to write a letter to my wife regarding my time away from her. We kinda made a promise that we would write our thoughts down but I truthfully, I dont think my wife expected to be talking to me as much as we have.

I guess what im truly trying to say is that, I want her to know I appreciate all the time we spend together. The small chats we have throughout the day. I especially enjoy the cuddling. Does anyone have experience like this. Obviously, it makes me feel like we are close but do you think its counter productive?

Raymond

22nd January 2010, 09:42 AM

They are all good signs Oliver. Be open and tell her you enjoyed it. That is important. She enjoyed it as well be the sound of it. Tell her you enjoyed it but with no strings attached. Well done for taking the day away from work and doing all you can. It shows you are mindful of her which cannot fail to be picked up by her.

I'd enjoy what is happening but still have patience. It will work it's way through in time and bring things back to normal.

Raymond

koliver0821

22nd January 2010, 03:28 PM

Patience is a virtue. I am well aware of that. I guess, i was a little afraid to tell her that I really enjoyed it because I want to be able to do it again. The last time I told her I was confused by her calls and affection while I was at the house, the next day she was as cold as ice when i was over there.

A bunch of our couple friends are trying to organize a night out next weekend. None of them know what is happening between us. This was planned a day before we had our split. Unfortunately, in order for her to go, she will need to get the night off. Im not sure what she is doing if she is even considering going.

I'm also very curious what she will be doing tonight. Since she worked in the middle of the week (which doesn't happen very often) she has Friday night off. Originally, we had planned a date night (again before the split) but tonight, I will be staying at my folks. I'm hoping that she stays home but something tells me she will have her mother watched the kids so she can go out. Not that she isn't allowed to go out.

On a side note, I had my first one on one therapy session. I went in with no expectations. But I think it was obvious to my therapist that I have a lot to talk about..... I basically came to the realization that I've had these "funks" off and on throughout my life. Sad that it takes something so traumatic to me to get me to seek help.

koliver0821

22nd January 2010, 06:46 PM

I know i posted a few hours ago. Just feeling a little down. I guess knowing im not going to my house to see my wife and kids is just working on me a little today. I did speak to my wife for an hour on the phone. (i wasn't exactly productive at work). Usually I feel so much better after talking to her. For some reason I felt a little down. I guess the good news is that I dont think shes going out with her friends tonight. She will probably visit her sister and her kids. Though I wouldn't mind if I was included in that.....

We talked about the current state of things. She can see that Im putting up an effort. I guess im concerned cause I cant make her feel things she doesn't want to feel. Im not sure if she is just dealing with me while im there by hugging me and such. I know its corny, but I told her that her hugs are therapeutic to me.

I know she is atleast thinking about things. I've never seen her more interested in reading quotes about life, love, happiness etc in my entire life. I know she is looking for inspiration just as much as I am. Though my inspiration is living in a house that doesn't include me for the next two days.

To add to my down mood, I've been thinking of her sexually as well (well that in itself isnt a bad thing). The last night we had relations was the night before we had this talk about needing space and love you but not in love. It truly was a special night. Spent time with friends, had a little wine and beer, and made love. I felt incredible the next day. I went to the store and got some stuff to make breakfast for the kids and her. I made her blueberry pancakes. I felt really good. the only thing that bother me that morning was that she stayed upstairs for like an hour after I gave it to her. But she finally came down and wanted to watch a movie with me. Sorry just reminiscing. I told my wife the same thing the other day. Its almost tragic how one of my best days I had in a 2 months was also one of my worst.

koliver0821

23rd January 2010, 01:27 AM

I just had dinner with my mom and dad and discussed life in general. Feeling better but definitely still feel "lost". I spoke to my wife on the way over and i did everything possible not to say I was hurting. I'm already looking forward to Saturday since I will get to see her and the kids.

Ive had a lot of ying and yang thoughts today. All i know is that I love this woman and I am very afraid that she can't find that love for me. I know i've seen post on here suggesting that the idea of love that she might be looking for is now different. I totally agree. Just not sure if that's the "love" she is looking for.

koliver0821

23rd January 2010, 08:00 PM

Today is one of those days. I spoke to my wife. As I figured, my wife did go out last night with her sister. Ended up getting sick because she drank too much. The fact that she went out wasn't a total shocker. Just hurt a little.

Whats worse to me right now is that every call I love. But when i hang up, im hurting. On the verge of crying. I made it to our house an hour or two ago. We hugged, the kids hugged me etc. Since my wife was sick, she wanted to lay down and asked me to cuddle with her. Of course I agree. I stay away from any topics of conversation that might reflect on our relationship. She mentions she was asked by her cousin to go to Florida for a week sometime in May/June. Instantly, I felt sour. She noticed it right away. I said that was good for her but I dont think I "sold" it. (LOL) The good news is she did mention going to Cape Cod (in Mass, USA) as well. We usually have a family vacation so I guess its a good sign that she is thinking in the future about our family situation. That made me feel good.

Now im off to take the kids shopping for sneakers and ballet shoes while she naps (nurses her hangover!) Thanks for giving me strength and some resolve. I've had some lows and the small reassurances Im getting from those who respond mean more than you know. My mom said not to give up hope. I just feel out of sorts.

koliver0821

24th January 2010, 08:27 AM

So I survived shoe shopping with my oldest girls! Though, I did think I was going to need a beer or three to get over it. As I was sitting in the ballet store with my kids, I realized how truly lucky I am that my kids are so well behaved. At times, they can be handfuls. However, when they all behave and not constantly needling each other, they truly love each other. It was good to see my girls hug each other for no reason. I saw my son hug my youngest and try to teach my baby (who is almost 3) how to use a Nintendo DSi.

When I got home, I spent more time with my wife. We made plans to go out to dinner with my folks. My wife wasn't exactly pleased with that. Not so much going out to dinner but the fact that my mom would be there. My mom can be a little pushy at times and my wife thought for sure she would be asking all sorts of questions about the status of relationship. That wasn't the case. My mom hugged my wife repeatedly and told her she is there for her if she wants to talk. I was a little relieved to hear that. Im glad that my mom was willing to listen to my wife and not ask questions. And I mean the type of questions that seem like interrogations! My wife and my mom did have a positive relationship. It wasn't smooth in the beginning as my mom really seemed to want a say in how we raised our kids. But my mom relaxed some over the years.

So hear I am at 2:13am waking up after a coughing spell. I think I have a touch of a cold and it doesn't help with me being a lil on edge with everything this going on. I do think about our interactions alot. I probably overthink them. I want my wife to know how much I love her and just how important she is to me. I hug her a lot. We kiss alot but not deep. To be honest, it terrifies me that I can't (Im certainly willing) kiss her deeper. Im trying to keep it going slow like when we were first dating. Like our first kiss and the every single one after that. Taking our time but passionate kisses. I too believe love is a choice.

When my wife and I started getting serious and into a sexual relationship, we had this little signal that made us feel connected. Either I or my wife as we are holding hands, would rub one finger in the middle of the other's palm. It instantly put sexual energy between us. So I tried it yesterday and I saw her smile. She also rubbed the inside of my palm. Now a few weeks ago, that would have led to us kissing deeply and etc. Today, it led to me having hope that she is feeling our love but also it scared me since she could be holding back.

JWD

24th January 2010, 11:06 AM

You're doing wonderful Koliver. You are def going in the right direction. Your patience will pay off I'm sure. It is true that in order to change a persons behaviour, you must change your own and it seems to be working for you. If you are being strong like you are, not pressuring her but still standing up for yourself, then she will have far more respect and attraction to you.

Your kids sound amazing and that will be part credit to you. Keep posting and letting us know how you are feeling

koliver0821

24th January 2010, 07:11 PM

Thanks JWD. Our kids are amazing. Of course, they have their days where they try every bit of your patience. I guess what kids don't?

I made it a plan to go to church again this morning. I'll admit, my faith wasn't a priority for a long time. In fact, I finished up my religious education as a requirement to get married. I've been off and on for awhile but truthfully, I havent been since my daughters first communion last year. I went last week as I was looking for hope in my situation but also to get the kids up early to start a better routine. This week, I invited my wife to join us. Since she is coming home from working the overnight shift, I tried my best to get the kids ready before she came home so she wouldn't feel any stress from the morning rituals. However, she got home a little early. The kids were dressed but as soon as she got home, none of them wanted to go. My wife and I had talked about going the night before and I'll be honest, I was looking forward to going as a complete family. But she was dog tired. I think the night on Friday took a lot out of her and she really couldn't stand when she got home. So I tucked her in and brought my cherubs to church. They were none to excited but we survived.
The only thing that sticks out at church was that when we start singing Alleluia tears start streaming down my face and my oldest daughter is just looking at me and decides to hug me. I wasn't even thinking about anything and I was balling. I felt better after going but I still felt like something (someone) was missing. When I got home, I went up to check on Michelle (my wife) and she woke up when I opened our bedroom door. Asked me how church was and told me lay next to her for awhile. I think she just wanted my body heat LOL. Not that Im complaining. We didnt say a word for an hour. I slipped in and out of sleep as i was holding her and she was holding my arm. Then out of the blue, she just said she loved me. Not in response to me saying it. Just out of the blue. I tear up a little and hold her just a little tighter. For the first time in 3 weeks, I have a true smile on my face.

RayCub

24th January 2010, 07:40 PM

Then out of the blue, she just said she loved me. Not in response to me saying it. Just out of the blue. I tear up a little and hold her just a little tighter. For the first time in 3 weeks, I have a true smile on my face.

Wow. That brought tears to my eyes. What I would have given for this kind of exchange with my ex when things were at their toughest...just that sign of hope I wished for but never received.

I'm so happy there's hope for you and Michelle. Things seem to really be moving in the right direction and your patience and perseverence is obviously paying off!

I'm so impressed :)

Best of luck koliver!
Ray
xo

koliver0821

24th January 2010, 08:04 PM

Wow. That brought tears to my eyes. What I would have given for this kind of exchange with my ex when things were at their toughest...just that sign of hope I wished for but never received.

I'm so happy there's hope for you and Michelle. Things seem to really be moving in the right direction and your patience and perseverence is obviously paying off!

I'm so impressed :)

Best of luck koliver!
Ray
xo

Ray, part of my problem was the ability to express my feelings. I dont mean just the good ones too. I mean all of them. When I was feeling down, I was quiet. When I was angry, I yelled and when I was happy and in love, It was what I expected so I didnt show my wife how important she is. Even the stuff im writing, sometimes seems surreal. The "I love you" I got today may have been in her subconscious. Since she worked, she was more than sleepy. In some ways, I want it to be a reflex. Though one that is built on love and respect that maybe before this stuff started happening, was lacking in some parts of our lives.

Part of the problem is our routine. Its not like I'm completely leaving away from our house and our children. When she has to work, im home with our kids (and more importantly to me, my wife). When she doesn't have to work, I may not be here. For instance, Monday, she will be coming home from work and I will get the kids ready for school. She wont sleep much that day as she will be with our youngest in the morning, my son and youngest in he afternoon before picking up my oldest girls from school. After that, she will go to ballet for my oldest and then she has an appointment. She asked me to watch the kids while she has her appointment (Doctors) and of course I will do it. Id do it just for her but of course, the added bonus of being with my kids.

The only thought going in my head though is should I be doing it for her? Am I being "whipped" by doing this stuff? I'm not sure its helping her with her need for space as she may see that she is able to handle all the pressures of the kids without me living there. (even though Im the one who is at home) To be honest, I dont mind being "whipped" so to speak. In some ways, I'm making up for lost time and showing her that I do care for her in more ways than she can comprehend. (though I know I did a poor job of showing that before this happened)

RayCub

24th January 2010, 08:22 PM

Well, I guess if it's something you like doing, and don't resent, then it isn't being whipped, right? Plus, like you said, you get to spend time with your children which is ALWAYS worth it.

Shift work is so hard on relationships; I know; I've been there. My ex worked shift work the whole 15 years we were together and I think it takes its toll.

As far as showing your feelings, well, I guess it's better tha keeping to yourself. My ex kept everything to himself in terms of what was bothering him over the years until it got to the point that he would rather leave than "fight" about it. So, I'm all for letting it all out.

All I can offer is for you to do what feels right to you, koliver. You seem to be on the right track. Maybe by being there for her, she may realize all you have to offer?

I'm really rooting for you!!

koliver0821

25th January 2010, 12:57 AM

Thanks Raycub- I really appreciate it. Whats funny is that I talked about it with her today. In more like a joking manner. She was actually "wowed" at how the kitchen and dining room was clean and floors mopped. I bought dinner and had it ready for her when she got downstairs. It was a little wild since the kids were all crazy but still had a good night. She didnt have to go to work tonight which was a plus. Immediately can see the relief in her eyes and body language.

As to things that will probably have me speaking to my shrink this week. I finally got the deep kiss I was looking for. In fact I got two of them. Dont tell me how pathetic I sound. I do kinda feel like Im back in HS again kissing the my dream girl. What was better is that she reciprocated. Even made a nice little sound after we kissed. I could definitely feel it. I sensed that she could feel. I kinda joked after the first one saying that was enough because I couldnt take much more. She liked my joke. The second kiss was before she left. I think im more observant of her body language more than ever. Things I may have overlooked before have suddenly sharpened for me. I saw her lick her lips before she kissed me. And after she kissed me she actually said yum. Of course she decided to throw one more thing at me that kinda makes me want to wait until she gets home. She said " i hope you ready to play when I come home, if I want to..." I kinda laughed. Sadly my wife has me by the balls and I can't deny it. I'm guessing by the way she is interacting to me that she can tell Im doing whatever it takes for us. It is one reason why i was scared to give her any space. I think if I was still her all the time, I'd be doing even more. As it stands, im sitting at my computer with two of my duffle bags filled with my clothes. I had this thought two days ago hoping with all my heart that my wife would hang up 5 shirts I have on hangers downstairs on a table. Not because I want her to clean my stuff up. Only because it would mean she put it back in "our" closet.

Still going to be patient. I know she wonders if I will still be helping as much as I do if and when she takes me back full time.

Raymond

25th January 2010, 10:42 AM

Been reading all your posts Oliver. I hope you are ready to play when she comes home. Do you need to be asked twice? Every time I read your posts things seem to gradually improve. You are doing something right.

Raymond

koliver0821

25th January 2010, 03:41 PM

So an update from last night. She wasn't ready to play apparently. (I was so hoping. I fell asleep putting the kids to bed and woke up 15 minutes before she came home. Re-brushed my teeth, re-did (whats left of my hair) another shot of Escape (my wife likes this scent for me).

Turned on the fireplace to set the mood. However, I underestimated the mood I set. She sat right next to me and put her head on my shoulder and almost fell asleep. She did talk about what she did over her cousins house. My raw emotion is making me feel jealous of her cousin. When she got the time off of work, I had a feeling that some alternate plan may come up. I was glad that she didnt do it right away. That she waited to have dinner with the kids and me. I told my wife that one of the only problems I have when it comes to her cousin is that everything seems so secretive. In the past, these phone calls were basically done to bash me. So I guess I understand why my wife wouldn't talk to her in front of me. However, with us openly talking about our problems, I was hoping that would come to an end.

Since her cousin doesn't know me that well, I suggested to my wife that she invite her over. Apparently, her cousin's husband had taken the kids to Florida to visit their grandparents but she couldnt get the time off of work. So she stuck around. So my wife was trying to be nice and asked her to come over our house. Apparently, she didnt want to come over because she got rid of her kids and just wanted to relax. I just feel bad for my wife because I partly believe that my wife is being used. Maybe used is the wrong word but maybe she is the one putting out most of the effort. My wife is always driving her cousin around when they go out drinking. She always has to go over to her house.

What drove me a little batty last night was when my wife got home she told me about her night. Apparently her cousin just bought a new laptop and spent the night setting it up with her headphone (in case her cellphone rang) in her ear while they watched a movie. My wife said they did talk and had a good night. Not sure why I feel the need to talk about her cousin. My wife probably should have kept some stuff about her cousin to herself. (about her extra-marital relationship). In the early months, when they were hanging out and I was encouraging my wife to go out, I told her that just be careful because, it sounds like her cousin is "acting" single. I found out that my wife would hang out with her cousin and some of her cousins' friends at a bar. Im sure this is a statistical anomaly, but my wife ended up telling me that out of the 7 girls that are part of that circle, 5 of them have/are cheating on their husbands. After she tells me this, I tell her just to be careful. That people may "lump" her as part of this "crew" and you might put yourself into a situation that could get ugly. (Sadly, I guess I was the one that lumped her into that group and without saying it, suggested that She was acting single by going out with them. I never said that to her, but I think the way i said it was a cop out. I should have just said that but was trying to show her I trusted and not blowing it out of proportion)

After all I said above, needless to say I'm very apprehensive of my wife's relationship with her cousin. It scares me that someone who really doesn't know me might be giving her advice about our relationship to my wife. Especially someone who might not be in the best position to provide that advice. Even with that all said though, I realize the problems between my wife and I are not because of her cousin. In every sense, my actions (or inactions) caused this to happen.

All in all, it was still a good night. I was able to hold my wife non-stop all night. I have a little more confidence in "us" because she did kiss me back. In many respects, it was our second "first" kiss. I told her I had butterflies before we kissed and let her know how it made me feel special and that I liked it tremendously. Im just hoping she doesn't think im being too over the top with how I feel.

koliver0821

25th January 2010, 07:02 PM

So, while I am sitting at my desk and soaking in my to do list for the rest of the day, I have this momentary creative streak that I decide to put to paper. I sent this to my wife just a moment ago. Im trying to express my feelings in any way possible and although I talked about some of my nervous energy to my wife, I was afraid it didnt come out right. So I wrote this. Im not asking for feedback in any way. Just needed to provide an outlet for my emotions.

Patiently I stood there waiting for you
As you waltzed from room to room
Anxious, the feelings deep inside
The heart was fluttering like a butterfly
Nervous energy flows readily within
In anticipation of a new moment in time
I hold you close and stare deeply inside
The windows of your soul that flashes by
My thoughts are racing as sparks come by
The tingle of wetness electrifies my mind
A simple gesture lights up my night
It was the second “first kiss” with the love of my life.

koliver0821

25th January 2010, 10:41 PM

I could sense my wife having the beginning of a bad day today. Even in the morning, she wasn't getting out of bed (the pouring rain didnt help). I made the kids lunches and got them up. Even got two of the 4 dressed for school (as my oldest was deciding on what to wear). Made my wife some coffee and brought it upstairs.

The last thing I wanted to be today is a burden to her. So instead of calling her, I sent a message just to say i was thinking of her. And I also sent the poem I wrote about last night. She seemed to really like it. But from there, here attitude just went down. She started running over her "to do list" for the day and wasn't sure how she could fit it all in. I made suggestions about car pooling with other parents which she liked, but the one close friend in that ballet class sounded put off about my wife asking (atleast, thats what my wife thinks) and she just got more aggravated as the day went on. The kids didnt make it any easier as they arent listening to her and they are picking on each other. I feel so bad for her because I can't be there to help her while im at work. Im certainly there to listen to her so she can vent but she really seems put off about it.

I guess Im feeling low (not down) because of the way she is feeling. The good news is that she will be seeing her therapist today so hopefully she can use that as a punching bag. But im just afraid she equates the issues she had today with the kids to our relationship. Im probably being insecure and she did say she didnt mean that she was upset at me. but i have a feeling that she will want to be alone tonight. I will obviously respect her wishes but I really wish I could help her or even just hold her so she can try and relax.

JWD

25th January 2010, 10:55 PM

Well you have been doing great so far, just remember the baby steps have worked so maybe just pull it back ever so slightly so she gets that feeling of space again without feeling pressured.

Also, the cousin. your wife seems to be focusing a lot of negativity towards this situation. Maybe she feels guilty that she has probably discussed your marriage with her? Also, this may be the reason the cousin doesn't want to come round either? I would just let your wife vent about her cousin, and the other mum or whomever has annoyed her and just show your support but not offer too many soloutions. She maybe just having a little moan.

You're doing fantastic

koliver0821

26th January 2010, 03:29 PM

Hi All, im just having a bad day myself. If one thing, I noticed a pattern with my bad days. So, I tired to prepare myself as best as possible.

On Sunday night, I told my wife that I need to know a few days in advance if she wants me to sleep elsewhere. In reality, I do not need that but by talking about the future and when we will see each other again lets me paint a picture of us together again. On Sunday, she wanted me to stay with her and she was trying to decide if I "should stay or should I go?" No joke, she was singing the song. (Like I said, we both kinda joke at our situation to keep it from getting to tense) I know inside, I immediately felt low. Really low. I think my wife sensed it and held me.

I know this incredible woman cares for me. She cant stand to see me hurting. Though in some respects, I dont think she cant handle anyone hurting. Thats what makes her a fantastic nurse, Fantastic mother, and fantastic wife. Even last night, she was crying. She was asking out loud why is she so screwed up. IM trying everything in my power to build her up. Im not blowing smoke up her rear end. Im being completely honest about what she means to me, what she means to the kids, what she means to her friends and family. And I start crying.

Not crying because of my situation. Im crying solely because my wife is feeling so low. In that instance, I look at my wife as I have some tears building in my eyes and I see this glimmer of confidence. I've seen it before but it kinda caught me off guard. So I decided to say something. I told her what i noticed inside her. That when she saw me crying, she went from being down and hurt, to a compassionate feeling person. (Ok maybe not in those words. It was like, for one instance, I saw that glimmer of confidence in her because she was taking care of something (me).

koliver0821

26th January 2010, 06:11 PM

Im making a proclamation. I am going to love unconditionally. I dont require anything in return. I will do everything in my power to love. My wife, my kids, my house, my family, my god. I think I've realized for the longest time that I didnt really love myself and I let that attitude come between everyone I loved. Unfortunately, I didnt see it that way at first. Now im truly healing.

No doubt Im going to cry. Hell, I was just "chatting" with my wife on messenger. I was almost ready to cry as she sent me a message. It feels good to know she is thinking of me. Even if its to tell me something trivial of her day. I told her that it makes me feel good that she notices what Im doing around the house. I also told her that the reason it makes me feel good is not because she notices but because I can tell she feels even the slightest bit better that Im making an effort.

I did tear up while i was chatting with her. Thankfully there is no webcam to capture the tears that swell in my eyes. Again, not tears for pain but tears for healing and love. I've come to realize that tears are not always a negative thing. Being a man, its not always easy to see anything that way. I was brought up to be strong, emotionally stable. Though I dont feel as strong and stable as I have in the past, I do realize that I do feel happier in general. Despite my situation with my wife.

The yo-yo that has been my emotional and spiritual ride is continuing. No doubt it will be even harder tonight and tomorrow as I wont be able to hold my wife and help my children with the myriad of homework they each have. I have some concerns that my wife will feel stressed at the amount of work my oldest has. Not sure how I can get my daughter to work on her book report while im on the phone with her but Im going to give it a whirl.

Its time to make life more worth living through love.

koliver0821

26th January 2010, 10:38 PM

So im nearing the end of the work day. I've probably talked to my wife more than I did before this entire mess started. IM NOT COMPLAINING :)

However, I am already feeling low energy and down in general. I've decided to head to the gym and I know Ill be seeing a few of my friends while I play some basketball. Of course, most of the time, I knew my wife would be there and the kids would be in the day care as she worked out. I would search her out and we would just talk to between different exercises. Maybe even plan dinner. My wife hasn't been going to the gym as much as she used to. Im hoping to god its not because of me. I get sad thinking about what I do after the gym. Most of the time, as soon as I was leaving, id call my wife to say im on my way home and see if she needed anything at the store.

This time, I wont be making the short ride to my house and my family. I will be taking an hour long ride to my parents house. I still may call. My wife said to call her on my way from the gym. though I'm trying to figure out if she was saying that to be nice or if she wants to talk. Either way, I need to talk to my kids.

I'm feeling out of sorts with this and really hope my wife sees that I'm willing to make lifelong commitment changes. I told her today that as much as things appear broken that I do feel closer in some respects. Though I did caution that by saying, that's how I feel and im not sure how she feels. I can only see that she appreciates the effort Im making.

Ageing Grace

26th January 2010, 11:54 PM

Oliver, your posts are amazing and moving. I so hope things work out for both of you!
Why does she think she's "screwed up"?

Raymond

27th January 2010, 02:06 PM

Good point. Why does she say that?

You are doing fantastic things Oliver. Committed to loving unconditionally is amazing. It all has to be worked out in practice of course but having the committment is half the battle.

What is the problem now with her? How can you help her with the way she is?

Raymond

koliver0821

27th January 2010, 03:01 PM

Thanks for responding. I appreciate the feedback. I believe that when I write my comments here, I am committed to feeling them outwardly as well. I used to wake up in the morning and just go through the motions. This was something even my wife said during the last month. Unfortunately, she was using that as measuring stick on the love between us. Upon reflection, I was going through the motions. I was taking things for granted.

On why does she think she is screwed up? I guess thats part of the million dollar question. I have my own thoughts on that but it is scary to think about. However, I know realize what she is going through in many aspects. I couldnt see the clearing through the forest. The fog (or as I told my therapist, my funk) is awfully hard to see through at times. I've been mired in depression for months. For me, it was at various levels. I had major mood swings. The reason things were so bad in our family life was that I was really just in survivor mode. Make it to the next day had become my mantra. Unfortunately, my "funks" lasted longer and longer and were pushed deeper due to the stress caused by our finances and X-mas. Also, I was beginning to see signs of stress in our relationship. More like she was slowly withdrawing. It was about month and half ago that I mentioned that I was not jealous of her going out with her friends. But I was jealous that the time she was spending with her friends didnt include me. It was a turning point in my mind. It may have been a turning point for my wife as well. I'm not positive about the following statement. However, it is quite possible had I not cried my eyes out to her at that time, that she would have completely withdrawn from me. I think at that time, it created a seedling for her to think about. As i mentioned, I was never a free talker when it came to my emotions and the pain I was feeling. I did ask her about it the other night and it really confirmed my suspicions that she had thought this out before. My therapist asked if this was a blindside moment. In many respects it was. However we had talked about this for 3 days before we actually did this. In the most unselfish thing I've probably done in my life. I told her not to worry about me and the hurt it could cause me. I truly want her to be happy. (And praying to the Lord almighty that I am the one that makes her happy) I also realized that it probably wouldn't be fair to me if she was in our marriage if she didnt have loving feelings towards me.

In many ways, my wife is feeling the same stress that I was. Like I've read in many post, the decision to have me live at my parents house was probably thought out in advance. I mean I know she would say it sometimes in a joking manner. However, it was probably my wife trying to feel out how to say something that was difficult for her.

So getting back to why my wife feels that she is so screwed up. I think she realizes that a lot of the pressures we feel are due to our the strain our finances (or lack of finances. LOL) cause us. I think she feels guilty about the purchase of the new house we are in. However, I think a lot of her thinking is based on why she feels so low at the moment. Why it is scary to me is that I think she is on the see-saw when it comes to her love for me. The good news is that I think I made the decision more difficult for her based on what I've been doing for the last month or two. I hoping that she is not having the following conversation in her head.

"Why dont I love this guy (in that way) who is trying so hard to change. I know I wasn't sure how much he loved me but he really is SHOWING me how much he loves me and how much he cares for me. " Thats what Im dreading.

The good news last night (well good news to me I think) was we were messaging on our phones. (I equate this to the old school sending messages in class) We had already talked on the phone and she was sitting in bed watching TV or trying to go to sleep. I told her she has any trouble sleeping and wants to talk that I'll be there for her. About an 2 hours later, I was updating my status on Facebook to confess my love for NyQuil. (I'm fighting a cold at the moment). within seconds of me posting this update, she calls me. I ask her if everything is ok thinking there was an emergency of some type going on and she just said she was having trouble sleeping and that she wanted to call me.

I'll admit, I had a big smile on my face. I playfully told asked her if she was thinking of me and missing me and she said she was. The call didnt last long. It was probably the 3rd time that we just kept saying I love you and goodnight. There were plenty of hopeful messages as well. Only time will tell as they say.

koliver0821

27th January 2010, 08:39 PM

well, I just had an interesting conversation with my wife and it leaves me confused, pleased, hurt all in one. I guess when you start talking about your feelings, things will just come out. For me, I've been doing this for a month straight now. I know its making a difference.

Today, two of my kids were complaining of being sick. They have coughs, and runny noses and sore throats. My wife kept them all home from school. We already had one appointment scheduled for the baby so throwing one more on wouldnt be a problem. I've talked to my wife couple of times and once before she took a shower. The difference in her attitude was amazing. Apparently when she was in the shower, my oldest girls decided to trash the living room. Not in a malicious way, but made the room a complete mess.

My wife exploded on them. It was a knee jerk reaction and I could tell immediately when she had called me that trouble was brewing. She dumps on me. Not what I did but just an emotional dumping of why she is sick and tired of everything going on. She told me that I can come over after work as she will need some space from the kids. She had a hair appointment scheduled but wasn't sure she was going to that and of course mentioned she might see what her cousin is doing.

I didnt say a word. I just said im sorry that she is having such a bad day. I learned that she also talked to another friend of hers about our situation. This girl was part of our relationship from the very beginning. She was my wifes close friend when we started dating up until we moved from massachusetts. Still close enough to drive but they ended up not seeing each that much. This friend 2 weeks ago said she wasn't surprised that my wife was having problems with me stating that "he was always a little immature". Man did that sting. Of course, she doesn't recall the times she was boinking my best friend even while she was engaged. Sorry, I dont hate her. im just lashing out at frustration.

The news I heard today from my wife is that she now believes we need to spend time together to make sure she still has feelings for me. I think she realizes that most of our problems have been the lack of time spent together. (Hence why my fear of this so called space). If I had left with no contact, we would be over right now. I have no doubts about that right now. Im guessing her friend explained to her that we need time together to confirm her feelings for me. So in some sense, I feel better but the next ball is now in the air. I am trying to temper her expectations of our time together. Knowing full well that one or two days together cannot heal any of the emotional scars that each of us may be carrying with us. Though I also recognize this is a start.

She also told me that she knows that the grass isnt greener on the other side. Once again more positive news for us. We talked about the times where she really detested me. Sadly, I never felt that she disliked me or hated being around me. I guess she was good at hiding her feelings as well. I could actually feel her venom over the phone as we were talking about it. I just agreed with her and told her how much I realized I as arse. That and I told her that I love her very much. That we need time together to rebuild.

Raymond

27th January 2010, 09:25 PM

koliver0821

27th January 2010, 10:09 PM

I think you are gradually winning the battle by the sound of it Oliver. I am encouraged that you pray. Has he not said I am an ever present help in time of need? If you are going to live a loving life you need to be filled up with His love. I often get to a place where I have to be filled up again. I do it unconsciously sometimes. There is a proverb that says a three ply cord is not easily broken. I always take that to mean husband, wife and God. Is he not the creator of marriage? He should know how to fix it. We all have weaknesses but He says my strength is made perfect in weakness. You can do a lot worse things than getting built up in your faith. It is part of the answer in my view.

Raymond
Completely agree. It is my main reason to start the routine with my kids. I have invited my wife. (Who coincidentally is the reason I reconnected with my faith before marriage) I think she too could benefit by going to church and I wanted her to know how much better it makes me feel, (although at times I feel really low as well).

Raymond

28th January 2010, 09:41 AM

Funny I picked up a book on marriage last night that I hadn't read for a while by Derek Prince and this is what it said.

"One last word on this subject: Never again rely solely on your own effort and ability to make your marriage a success. No marriage can ever be what God intends it to be apart from His supernatural grace. The commitment you have now made to your mate and your marriage has made that grace available to you in a measure that you have never known before. Avail yourself of it freely! God has told us, "My grace is suffiicient for you, for power is perfected in weakness" (2 Cor 12:9). God's grace and power will see you through every difficulty that arises. If you feel perplexed, discouraged, or inadequate, trust God for an extra measure of grace and power, right then and there. Expect to see Him work - in ways, perhaps, you could never have imagined. Expect to see Him change whatever needs to be changed - you, your mate, the whole situation. He will not fail you".

I have found that true in my marriage and believe that is the main reason for the success of it, certainly not my background.

Raymond

koliver0821

28th January 2010, 11:22 PM

Thanks Raymond. I will need even more inspiration today. i will provide an update shortly...

Ageing Grace

29th January 2010, 10:40 AM

Once again, thank you for your posts, Oliver. It's both interesting and inspiring to hear about your learning process and how you & your wife are becoming more open to yourselves and to one another. The overriding point, for me, is how well you have learned to listen attentively and sympathetically. You're becoming a good friend to your wife, aren't you?
Wishing you all the inspiration you need.

koliver0821

29th January 2010, 02:30 PM

Thanks Grace.

Remember some of my previous post that I said my wife had spent time on facebook and chatting with an old boyfriend (back when she was 13). Well, I was right about my gut. Wrong about the timing. My wife finally revealed that she did have an emotional affair and did kiss this other guy. She didnt go into great detail nor did I want all the details. In many respects, I had already determined that and regardless, it wasn't changing what I needed to do to be a better person, a better father, and a better husband.

Will be posting later.

koliver0821

29th January 2010, 02:58 PM

I guess something in the back of my head always knew something went on. However, I didnt go looking for evidence all the time. I do know (because she told me) that they talked on the phone, text messaged and chatted on facebook. They only met up together once. If there was a saving grace, they were caught kissing by a friend of this other's guys wife. I say that but possibly my wife will reveal more to me.

I am looking at it this way. I've been beating myself up over how much I pushed her away. I was completely relaxed. My wife had gone out the night she told me. I was kinda hoping she would come home earlier as I was trying to plan a relaxing massage for her. We kissed. I thought it was deep. I was shocked at my own reaction to the news. It hurt. I felt inviscerated to my core.

More to come.

koliver0821

30th January 2010, 01:24 AM

Now to add more to what I am feeling. How is it that I've contstantly said to my wife that If she ever cheated on me, Id be bitter and angry and make her life hell? In fact, in early December, my wife and I were talking about the movie Hangover where the girl cheated on her husband. She was a raving BI.... My wife started crying at the movie and said she cant believe that she acted like a jealous bitc... when we were dating. It led to a conversation about cheating again. She couldnt believe that I could be that cold if someone (or in this case she) was to ever cheat on me. I called it the ultimate betrayal. However, I backed off that comment. Even before she asked for space, I had told her that I wasn't really sure if thats how I felt. I guess part of me was trying to see if she would admit to cheating on me. Hell she even begged me to ask her. So I did. And she lied and told me that she hadn't and couldn't actually believe I was asking.

Funny how that works. She was trying to make me feel guilty for asking when she knew that she had. In the night of this revelation, all these details were flowing in my head. How screwed up this.

I told her that as much as I may be hurt by hearing this tonight, I told her that she was going to feel better. I must have said it 10 times. I was hurting. Alot. I really didnt show it until the morning after. I didnt sleep at all. I tried but I couldnt. I cried a lot and I made her see the hurt but told her I was sorry for pushing her away. I also told her that despite all the stuff I said about cheating, I am unconditionally in love with her. That if this affair, that has been broken off for some time now, was a block in the way of her getting better, then I can live with it assuming she is willing to work on communicating with me and rebuilding our relationship.

I told her I was new person. That despite all the hurt I may be feeling and outwardly showing, that I feel stronger. I literally cannot get the smile off my face today. I owe that all to my therapist. Truly not because he told me anything specific. But when I left, I felt tired. I played some indoor soccer and came home. My wife who told me a few hours before that she would be sleeping, was actually awake. She was in our bed. I bought a bottle of wine at the store and some other items for the kids that we would need. I drank one glass of wine right away. Poured myself a second glass and went upstairs to talk. Not about us, but to talk about my night. She was laughing at me when she saw the wine and was kinda surprised. I told her that red wine makes me feel warm. Of course, the nurse in my wife told me that it was a depressant and with the history of alcoholism in my family, I should be careful. But I didnt care. I felt great and was really only drinking the wine to wind up the day. We didnt talk much more after that. We slept and held each other all night.

We had couples therapy today and I was completely jittery. Combination of nerves and 2 cups of coffee without eating anything. In that meeting, I was feeling upbeat. Not because of anything I was hearing, but I realized I was better person already. That ready to talk about myfeelings that I so desperately kept guarded for so long. I kind felt beat up the last time we went to couples therapy. Everything my wife said was negative towards me. But its funny when the first thing I get to mention is my wife's affair. Then all of the sudden, the environment changed. I could genuinely feel that my wife was making an effort. I truly believed that this guilt shes been having for so long about the affair was eating at her.

My wife was concerned before we spoke to our therapist because she thought she was too cold. What a difference a week makes! She actually likes our therapist. I agree that she is a little cold but I suppose as a therapist, your constantly being dumped on emotionally so you dont actually take in what people are feeling. Only the manner in which the message is being delivered. She of course misunderstood my reason for talking. I was so full of energy and all positive energy. I truly didnt care of my wife and I couldnt' work it out. I realized one way or the other, I will be a better person regardless of the outcome.

Now with that being said, Im praying hard that we work out cause I know for sure she is my soulmate. The small kiss she gave me before leaving for work and just the positive energy she was giving towards me really made me feel something. I asked her if she was feeling better? She told me she was feeling a little better. I already knew the answer. I just wanted to have her say it. She was looking fantastic, even though she will be starting the first of 3 12 hour shifts overnight.

Ageing Grace

30th January 2010, 03:22 AM

You. Are. Amazing.

The work you're doing on your own psyche, Oliver, is incredible. Your wife must be thinking, by now, she'd be crazy not to make the most of you. But the main point, as you say yourself, is your own spiritual & emotional development - however your story plays out, your response to this challenge will enrich your future. Good for you :)

It worries me when people talk of unconditional love for their partner. Love without terms is only for children (and god, since you're a churchgoer). As you're so clearly putting a lot of thought into this, I trust you meant 'unconditional' in the sense of not bearing grudges for your wife's earlier liaison?

All the best, Oliver. Thank you for the updates.
AG

koliver0821

30th January 2010, 03:38 AM

It worries me when people talk of unconditional love for their partner. Love without terms is only for children (and god, since you're a churchgoer). As you're so clearly putting a lot of thought into this, I trust you meant 'unconditional' in the sense of not bearing grudges for your wife's earlier liaison?

AG

Actually, Perhaps you are right. I've always considered myself to be a fair person and that I wouldn't hold grudges. However, I really know that I do. I guess what Im saying is that I love my wife, warts and all. I was more surprised that the revelation that she had an affair didnt kill me. In fact, it more or less energized me. I can't explain it. well maybe I can, I think I was placing so much blame on myself that i was causing my self to be overwhelmed. Now, I will just love. Feeling free to talk about my feelings and insecurities that for so long, I havent been able to do.

I suppose I should proceed with caution. I dont mean that I forgive my wife easily. Obviously, there is work to be done to rebuild our relationship. I think for the first time, I'm actually seeing my wife trying. I wasnt so sure before.

To throw all the monkey wrenches into the mix, my wife and I had sex yesterday. It was probably a bad idea considering the place we were both at. (Her not sure of her love and me not trusting.) However, I take comfort in two things. She said it was amazing. I guess our ability to make love didnt suffer that much. Two, I was shaking. It was much more of an emotional release than a sexual one. I was still hurting, but I truly dont think my wife would make love to me just to fulfill a sexual need. I think her feelings of love are there. I just have to work and be patient to have her feel them again.

Raymond

30th January 2010, 01:12 PM

It all makes so much more sense to me now. Her affair I mean. Why we didn't think of that I don't know.

That she has confessed it voluntarily shows she is repentant and wants to put it behind her. That you are ready to forgive her bodes well for the future.

I believe things will now flow much more between you. Having an affair is a devastating thing and can blow couples apart. I really hope you can now both go on from this and grow ever closer together. I think you will as something has been removed through her willing to be honest.

That you now observe that she is trying is good. Something to do with her confession I would say. Your forgiveness of her speaks volumes on your character.

Regarding unconditional love. That is exactly what I practice and what DW practices as well, or at least the best we can. Obviously if adultery or an affair happened one would be cut off to a certain extent from the romantic love of the other partner, but wanting the best for them does continue as that is the love that God gives us. If both have unconditional love it will never happen, an affair I mean.

Love doesn't seek it's own if it is real but of course it rejoices in reciprocation.

Raymond

koliver0821

30th January 2010, 03:20 PM

Raymond, I know I thought about. I questioned her quite a few times. Times when we were revealing our deepest emotions. I guess she wasn't ready to tell me. Surprised that she waited until I was really hurting about the separation to finally tell me. Truthfully, at this moment, I dont really think about it. My ability to forgive her for what I originally believed to be the worst she could do to me is something I will learn to communicate to her.

I guess its interesting that at one time, my wife was jealous of all women who were in my life. I would talk openly about people I met on the train. Some of these people would even call me or send a random text message. Of course, when they were doing that, they were really forwarding jokes or stupid phrases. Nothing of any real substance. They were nothing more than friends. I would talk about my family life and lack of social life (due to our responsibilities.)

I find my reaction to the news puzzling to me. I can't explain why I wasn't devestated. I mean I guess the pains of hurt finally crashed upon the shore in the morning since I was openly sobbing. Though, I really feel I wasn't sobbing over the news that she had an affair. I was really sobbing because I may have unintentionally caused her to look elsewhere for attention. I made the mistake of not properly putting my wife on the pedalstal that she deserves.

Now, she admitted to me about the person she had this affair with. But with that affair being over for months now, Im wondering about the whole need for space at the current time. Im hoping (ok praying) that the reason is her doubt in herself. I think she is doubting her love for me in the sense that she can't believe she cheated on me. That she feels like she isnt the person she used to be. Heck, maybe she is not. But at the same time, I know that the person I love is still there. And perhaps needs a hand to be built back up. Im certainly willing to assist in her healing process.

Im not sure how I should be acting. I mean, I am willing to forgive. However, I did check out this guy that my wife had this affair with. The guy has a goatee. My wife for years told me she didnt like facial hair. To this day she likes me clean shaven. She doesnt like tattoos, but this guy had tons of tattoos. I think that one detail led me to believe that something was going on between them. My wife was thinking about getting a tattoo. In fact, she was thinking of getting one on her lower back. Now, not sure what they call that in the UK but here in the states, we call them Tramp Stamps. I kept calling it that but she kept asking me if it was sexy. I told her what they are called and she kinda laughed. I told her that she doesn't need one to be sexy. That she is sexy as she is. (sorry I digress!!)

Now with that being said, at that time, i was probably in the worst condition of my life. My weight was the highest its ever been. I was miserable. Definitely didnt love myself though i put on a brave front. I was depressed about lots of things. Even some strain was beginning to come on our relationship. I was complaining to my wife that she was going out alot. She had called out sick from work to go out with friends. I had asked her to call out sick somedays to go out with other couples but she couldnt seem to get those days off. I didnt tell her it was because I wanted to spend time with her. I told her it that some of those days, I would like to go out wiht my friends too. As the months went on, even recently, my wife had called out sick to work to hang out with her cousin. I think I may be having some problems with that. I know I am willing to forgive, but my gut is telling me to inquire more. Like it was easier to admit the first affair as its already broken off. But if there is someone else now.... I just dont know. In some respects, it makes me wonder if I should be around for her when she wants to go out with her "cousin". For instance, the meetings before with her cousin were in fact with this guy she was having the affair with.

For me, I've lost 45 pounds since June 1st of last year. Im probably in the same shape I was in when I was playing college soccer here in the USA. I feel tons better about who I am from a "looks" standpoint. I know I need to build myself confidence up. That transformation has been going on since my wife's idea of a separation. I told her, that regardless of the outcome, I know in my heart that I did everything possible to make it work. If it doesnt work, it wont be because I didnt try. But I also know that if it doesn't work, Ill be in a much better place for me than I was before.

GTW

30th January 2010, 05:16 PM

I was really sobbing because I may have unintentionally caused her to look elsewhere for attention. I made the mistake of not properly putting my wife on the pedalstal that she deserves.

For me, I've lost 45 pounds since June 1st of last year. Im probably in the same shape I was in when I was playing college soccer here in the USA. I feel tons better about who I am from a "looks" standpoint. I know I need to build myself confidence up. That transformation has been going on since my wife's idea of a separation. I told her, that regardless of the outcome, I know in my heart that I did everything possible to make it work. If it doesnt work, it wont be because I didnt try. But I also know that if it doesn't work, Ill be in a much better place for me than I was before.

Do you think we may have been separated at birth kol?:D
It could have been me recounting the above (even down to the lost 45lbs, although mine was since September last year :p, I never went to college or even played soccer though come to think of it); spooky 'eh :)

I guess what I am saying is that I feel you buddy and it REALLY sucks don't it (I am doing my best to sound like one of your country men; how am I doing?)
Hang on in there, you are doing well, Stay Strong :D

koliver0821

30th January 2010, 05:38 PM

Thanks, At this very moment, Im letting this revelation beat me up a little. Actually wrong word. Eat me up. The need for space is interesting to me only because I wasnt crowding her. I was only asking for her to include me. She came forth with an "affair" but like I said, Maybe it was easier to come forth with an affair that is over versus one that may be in the making, or worse......

The weight loss was done for me. I started thinking about my health and truthfully, my wife suggested I try Jenny Craig. It worked for me. It was a little unsettling at first being the only guy at Jenny Craig but thats when I stopped caring what other people thought. And the rest was hard work at the gym. Though I must admit, In order to go to the gym, I sacrificed some home life at times too. (Obviously!) I always said the gym for me was not so much about being physically happy but more for stress reduction. id come home to the hectic lifestyle that my wife and I created (the children we both love tremendously.)

Anyway, IM now domesticated. I've been sweeping and mopping floors. Checking on the bathrooms making sure what we should have in their. Taking out the trash (ive always done that but maybe I needed to be reminded sometimes). Doing laundry for my wife and kids. (i dont know why im not doing mine until theres are down considering Im the one who has to leave the house for a few days, but thats a subject for my shrink next week.) Of course, I started doing these things to have my wife notice. Now, Im doing it to fill the time to stop me from thinking about our situation all the time. That, and maybe a small part of me (or bigger part than Im willing to admit) enjoys getting stuff done around the house.

Raymond

30th January 2010, 11:40 PM

koliver0821

31st January 2010, 12:01 PM

Oliver I read your reply to me. In it you ask the question is she having another affair now? That really shocked me as I thought she had confessed the one that she ended and was now beginning to respond to you.

You seem like a person who takes the blame for everything even your wifes affair. Is that right? I mean she was being unfaithful. It is good to find out the reasons that could have precipitated her looking for comfort somewhere else but a lot of the blame is with her. One cannot actually justify unfaithfulness and take all the blame.

The more pressing issue is what is she up to now? If you have her repentance over the affair why can't you now be back together? I hope you are wrong in your surmisings but you have to find out what is going on in order that you can trust her fully. There were signs that you were becoming closer again and her confession I believe is all part of that.

Raymond

Raymond, you are exactly right. I have been beating myself up for weeks on our split. Yes, she did confess about the affair. However, the need for her to go out wiht her friends/cousin even recently is making me think other things. However, I think that. NO I mean I know that is part of my healing process. I have to regain trust in her. I can forgive the affair but I also know I need to rebuild that trust.

I agree there are signs that we are becoming closer again. I truly believe that. I think that the affair she had was a roadblock to our communication and that we as a couple couldn't fully heal and build a solid foundation until that was done. I expressed my hurt the following morning. I was crying my eyes out and I tried to take as much of the blame for pushing her away.

Its funny, how can this affair actually make me feel better? I tell you why. I was thinking about this for awhile. I was beating myself up for the failures in communication in our relationship. I admit, I had some growing up to do but I was also dealing with my own self esteem issues. However, with that being said, I now know that I shouldn't be taking the blame. It does take two to shake the foundations of a relationship. If anything, my self esteem issues allowed my wife to put most of the blame on me. I stopped taking all the blame (with the exception of the first night she told me) I talk to my therapist and feel tired. My mind wasnt racing.

As for my feelings right now. I'll admit, I love my wife more than ever. However, I also have some resentment in how she communicated with me recently. before the affair was mentioned, It was all about how terrible I was. That I wasn't doing enough around the house, with the kids, etc. The funny thing is, my wife wasn't able to see that she was doing the same things I had been doing. She was yelling at the kids. Had a short fuse for everything. Was always tired.

For about a month, our friends were trying to organize a night out. These friends are our couple friends. They have children that are our kids ages. We've shared alot of laughs and lots of beers. I was really worried about this outing since our difficulties in our marriage came to a head. My wife told me about the outing as it was organized by the wives. It happened to fall on a weekend where my wife would be working. I was using it as a barometer of progress in our relationship. If it was important enough, she would have found a way to make it. Unfortunately, since our problems have come to the surface, she has taken days off for personal mental recovery. The issue with that is it left her unable to get the day off. She was struggling trying to get the day off. I actually could see her trying. (it made me feel good).

I was sitting down in the living room and turned on the fireplace. I turned off the lights and was listening to some soundscapes trying to breathe. I was hurting as I figured she was showering and getting ready for work. When she came down, she was dressed in her scrubs. I could feel my heart drop. I was definitely disappointed. I started tearing up. She came up to me and hugged me but something strange happened.

Instead of her consoling me, she began sobbing uncontrollably. Both of us were sitting in our living room crying our eyes out but in that instant, I felt better. She was crying because of her hurt, not because of my hurt. She was sorry for disappointing me. She continued to cry and said she was so sorry. It made me realize that part what made me cry after she admitted the affair was that she didnt cry. (Strangely either did I)

Our kids saw this display and started surrounding us. She was still crying but my son hugged us both. Then my youngest and then my oldest girls started hugging us. I heard my wife apologize to each of them and that she really loves them. With all of this going on, I was feeling stronger. I am consoling her.

Eventually, my parents who my wife had called to come watch the kids so we could go out, arrive. Its easy to tell that my wife had been crying. My parents ask if everything is alright. They are aware of most of the situation (not her affair) and are trying to be supportive. I kiss my wife several times and she is kissing me back. When she finally leaves to go to work, I talk to my parents and I told them this. I WAS GLAD SHE WAS CRYING. I think what has caused me to hurt after every phone call and the times I leave my house in the morning for work is that I dont see her hurting. Its wrong for me to want to see her hurt, but from an emotional standpoint, she so needed to do this.

I think things will get better between my wife and I. Not suggesting that she will not require space right now. She is feeling as low as someone can feel right now. She actually said she was jealous of where I am right now. She can sense how positive and how much better I feel. The funny part of this is when we first met, from the day we met, she filled me with confidence just by being in my life. And although the very foundations of our relationship may be crumbling in every aspect, she has found a way for me find my confidence again. (though, id rather it have been in some other fashion LOL) The power of Love is an amazing thing. I am able to do all things through him who gives me strength.

koliver0821

31st January 2010, 06:09 PM

So I wanted to add something that was special to me today. My wife was able to make it the Church with me this morning. How ironic is this. It was about St. Pauls letter to the Corinthians. About Love.

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I teared up during this reading. Of course this was one of the readings during our marriage. My wife asked if I was ok and I proudly said yes even with some tears swelling in my eyes. After the mass, Michelle asked me if I had slipped anyone at the church money to talk specifically about that reading. I think the words hit home.

No joke, I would not consider myself a deeply religious man. However, I have turned to the Lord for guidance and must say from that point on, I've felt alive.

koliver0821

1st February 2010, 12:51 PM

Just wanted to say I feel good right now. I've had some bad thoughts recently but IM guessing that is par for the course regarding affairs. I didnt really pick up on the signs at the time of the affair. Actually I did but my wife was really good at making me feel bad for even suggesting that she would do it. I didnt attack her when i saw things that bothered me but I did have a discussion. But since she wasn't truthful with me at the time, we couldn't start healing before the affair happened.

I am growing as a person. I still need to focus on me and I think thats why I left so content from my therapy session on Thursday. It was just amazing that I wasnt feeling down. I believe signs are pointing in the right direction for my wife and I. I need her to communicate with me without fear of hurting me. I also have to do the same thing. We are finally getting to the basic truth. The greatest of these are love.

Raymond

1st February 2010, 01:03 PM

Two beautiful posts Oliver. It seems that your wife has found the tears of repentance needed. It is lovely that she was at your side in church listening to that passage of love. Is God speaking to you or what?

Relationship to christ was always the answer in my view. I think if you get that right she will follow. Think three ply cord.

Hopefully your trust of her can grow but that is partly up to her to restore your trust as well by showing herself trustworthy.

You have been through a lot. Hopefully you will be coming out of this and things will get more positive.

Raymond

koliver0821

1st February 2010, 03:59 PM

And more good news. Last night before she left to work, we were just holding each other. I wasn't really in the mood for an emotional talk, (I've been eating myself alive with some frustration over her affair.) I have some questions I need to ask but I don't want to dwell on it. So we just talked about my night out with our friends (where I went without her) and what I did that day with the kids. We even joked again about the mass we went to. Please don't get me wrong, my wife has always been a religious woman. Its tough as heck for her to make it through the morning after being up all night working. So we may change when we go to mass. (Looks like Saturday afternoon). I did tell her I had some unpleasant things to talk about.

I asked her what are we doing about the upcoming week. Should I go to my parents house again this week? She said she wasn't sure. (it was a little disappointing to hear that but at the same time, it was a more hopeful answer.) In the past weeks, there was no hesitation. She would say I still need my space. it also opened the door to talk a little about her affair. I told her I will need to hear details. i will need answers to my questions that are honest, although probably tough to hear and may very well hurt me, and tough for her to talk about. I truly believe this was more an emotional affair than any physical one. not that it doesn't hurt the same way.

Why I bring it up now is that this morning, my wife said she had something to tell me. Honestly, I was afraid that it was more bad news. As if it could really get worse. Thats when she said, she wants me to move back in. (Not that I moved out in any real sense.) Im just glad that when I get home tonight, I will be able to pack my clothes in their proper drawers instead of living out of my college soccer duffle bag. (See I still have to grow up a little!!)

I know the road to marriage bliss has a few rocks in the way. I know that I still have lots to prove to my wife. That I am capable of stepping up my efforts around the house and being free to talk about my feelings. I told her I know Im not perfect and that I never claimed to be. My self confidence has been low for quite some time. I will need her to help build that up as well. Though, as usual, self love free from narcissism, will be my ultimate goal.

Thanks for all your support during these trying weeks. I will still be posting as in many ways its therapeutic and I hope to give some people hope that through love and communication, the darker days of marriage and relationships can always be brightened.

Raymond

1st February 2010, 04:50 PM

Moving back in? Wow that's a move forward. It was always the next logical decision in my mind. That's really good news.

I always found it hard to get the distinction between loving yourself and narcissism. Some people hate themselves and denigrate themselves saying they are no good etc. That is obviously wrong. If Christ paid a price for us then we are worth a lot to Him and we should agree with what he says about us. Loving yourself and being kind to yourself are good things and show that we have good self esteem. A lot of people who have been brought up in good loving families automatically have this. I had to get mine from God but re-enforced with good relationships.

Pride is a different thing. A lot to do with self admiration. It is thinking we are more than what we are. Of course we are nothing without Him. Humility is not grovelling in the dust but just having a balanced opinion of oneself. Pride also puts ourselves above God and makes out we know better than Him. Actually the bible puts this as one of the chief faults and the biggest barrier to God. It takes a humble man to come to the cross receive forgiveness and confess his need of a Saviour.

Sorry your comment got me musing for a change and out it comes.

Your news is really great Oliver and things seem to be going from strength to strength just now. May it long continue.

Raymond

koliver0821

3rd February 2010, 04:16 PM

Its been a couple of days since I posted. I know for the past few weeks that I've been doing everything possible to get my wife's attention. To let her know that I have changed. Honestly, I feel a lot better about myself and the change I've undergone. My wife thinks that the change was related to me being pushed out of the house. She really hadn't noticed that I was changing even before that. (Not that I'm complaining.)

I know it sounds weird considering how hard I was trying to get back in the house, but Im still wondering if me moving back is the best thing for her. The Lord knows I want to be there and my wife is definitely interested in working things out. But the line she used which caused all this drama in the first place keeps coming back to me. I love you but not sure im in love with you.

I realize that I'm desperately looking or needing attention from her. Mainly because this is what has been lacking in my relationship with my wife for the past month or two. I've never been like this before. I mean ever. I realize that Im acting "clingy". I understand it will probably take awhile for me to not feel this way. Considering how much I've been through emotionally this last couple of months.

I spoke to a psychiatrist yesterday. I will be taking some anti-depressant medication. once again, a big step for me considering I've never been able to ask people for help. Im sure he wasn't expecting me to do some brain dumping on him but I figure thats what they are there for!

I felt tired after speaking with him. Not exactly sure why. It wasn't an emotional conversation but maybe the past few weeks are catching up to me in the sleep department. I was excited to see my wife.

Yesterday, I decided I was going to cook. (this was something ive never really done so I wanted to show Michelle I was willing to do anything.) Last week I made Baked Mac and Cheese and today I decided to surprise her with American Chop Suey. (i know not heavy lifting in terms of actual cooking but to me it was). She had worked the night before so I "worked" from home to help out my wife. unfortunately, she didnt get much rest as I really had some work items to deal with and my youngest wanted Ice Cream at 10am when we didnt have any. (I normally would have said no on principal but to keep her from screaming and waking up my wife, I would have done it yesterday!) The Chop Suey was a hit! She loved it. I was proud of it too. It tasted darn good!!

As usually is the case, something during the day derails you in ways you wish it wouldn't. As i was talking to my wife, her cousin calls with her latest drama. (There is always drama.) An hour later, my wife is off the phone. And then her sister calls and she is also having drama. I can handle it from her sister. Its real drama and I truly love her as if she was my own sister. Of course, she wants to spend time with my wife. Alone. to Talk.... She decided to come over with her daughter. I was actually happy that she came over. We opened up some bottles of wine and we all felt a little relaxed. Of course, her cousin calls and has a need to see my wife. Her sister apparently is not a big fan of her cousin either. My wife has this issue about saying no to her cousin. Without fail, my wife agrees to drop off cake mix and frosting to her cousins friend and almost gets roped into going to her cousins house too. I could tell my wife didnt even want to answer the phone when she called. I guess thats a good sign. And she said after that she wouldn't be going over to her cousins house. (another good sign!)

When they came back, we went back to the wine(The 3 of us finished 2 bottles of wine) I know I was feeling good and amazingly felt sharp mentally even though I could feel some dulling effects from the wine. We were listening to music, helping the kids with homework. Talking about life. We even laughed about the events of the past few weeks. At my expense of course.

I had a heart to heart talk to my wife's sister. We talked about her situation with her husband (having many of the same issues my wife and I are having) I even suspect she is heavy into an emotional relationship (if not more) with someone else. Thats a subject for another time. However, part of the conversation was related to my wife and I. My wife had to go to the bathroom and I spilled my heart to her sister. The good news is that even her sister can sense a difference in me. However, I also told her that Im not sure if its really doing any good. (I mean I know it cant hurt our situation with my trying so hard) What Michelle is telling me is that she wants to have those feelings for me. The same feelings I have for her and that its going to take time.

So here are my questions to myself each time I see her: I wonder if she really loves me. Was her invitation to come back to the house another step in the right direction or does it have more to do with her needing help as well. Maybe she asked me back into the house because she knows its difficult for me living out of dufflebags.

We are planning a night out next weekend. My wife wants to find babysitters to watch our kids all weekend so we can spend time together. Im excited about this but I feel like it may be the time that my wife decides on what she feels for me. I think she loves me. but if she doesnt feel like she is, then she could decide that its over. That thought is scaring the crap out of me. Sorry for the brain dump. I'll be doing the same tonight in therapy.

koliver0821

3rd February 2010, 05:05 PM

Also about last night.

My wife and I were constantly kissing. Making out. I could tell that she was enjoying the kisses just by her mannerisms. We'd have small conversations about how much I love her and she would tell me she loves me too. HOWEVER, she would temper my enthusiasm at times. She told me that the alcohol helps. Meaning she was kissing me and wanting to be close with me because of the wine. I wont lie, the kisses were fantastic. Deep, passionate kisses. It probably would have led to much more :) if her sister and our kids weren't around or asleep. But for her to say that still kinda rang my insecurity bell.

koliver0821

4th February 2010, 03:53 PM

Wow, what an interesting day/night yesterday was. My wife was hungover from our night up last night. I wasn't entirely shocked. However, we had good time, good laughs and it felt right.

The morning she was hurting. I understand. I for some reason was not hungover. I felt pretty good though maybe a little tired. I took care of everything in the morning. Got the kids dressed, fed, and ready for school. When I left in the morning, I kissed my wife but had a sinking feeling. She assured me she was just hungover. We laughed about the night and i went to work.

I talked to her several times from work. She was the one calling me. Im telling you that not because I wouldn't call her but feel its important. It made me feel good. Even if she was calling just to vent about the latest eruption from the kids. I noticed as the day wore on, she appeared to get more irritable. Not with me but just with her day. It was busy with the girls in ballet. I had to leave work early for therapy. My wife had made plans to go out with her cousin and although I was anxious about her plans, I realized I needed to let her go.

The difference this night was she didnt seem very excited to go. I mean she was going through the motions. Getting dressed, putting on makeup, etc. I did question who she was going with. I told her its something she will need to put up with for a lil while as we are rebuilding our trust, our communication, our relationship. She understood (I think) and we must have kissed a few times good bye.

It was a relatively early night for her. She left around 7 and was back on the road at 11. I spoke to her briefly as she was leaving. Definitely sounded different. Sounded distant. She mentioned her sister called and that she wanted to talk to her. What was a 10 minute car ride from the restaurant took closer to an hour. She told me she was in the parking lot talking. Didnt want to be distracted on the phone while driving. Im sure I came across as an interrogation. It truly wasn't. I wasn't really concerned about her doing something with somebody else. I was more afraid for her. She told me it was an ok night and that the group of people she went out with all knew each other. My wife only knew one or two people and she said she felt left out.

When she finally got home. She was cold. Literally and figuratively. I sensed this was one of those times that I should just let her be. I was close to her but not talking. Just rubbing her back and shoulders near the fireplace. We did do some talking as she was asking why I was just staring at her. Thats when I told her, I was scared.

I wasn't scared of our relationship. I was genuinely scared about the way she was acting. I told her I loved her and that I will always be there for her. Then it got even scarier. She told me she is lost. She feels like she lost her soul. She even thinks she should be hospitalized. It was as dark a comment as I've ever heard from someone. I kept rubbing her and telling her Im there for her that I will always love her. that She will get through this. She did finally fall asleep in our living room. I was right next to her. When she finally slept, I sat by her and just closed my eyes. And prayed. I was crying, but not sobbing so she could hear me. Maybe 30 minutes later, my wife asked me what I was doing. So I told her. I told her I was scared and sad for her. that Im just breathing and praying for her. At that moment, she asked me to lay next to her and she held my hand. It must have been for 2 hours. I finally get up and do some deep breathing. I've been working on relaxation techniques during these last few weeks and its done me a ton of good.

My wife notices me up and sits up and said, lets go to bed. I went to bed. I helped her get dressed and I held her until the sun came up. I havent slept that much today. This morning, she was just as distant. The good news was she was seeing a doctor about taking anti-depressants. Im so scared for her. Please all, Pray for my wife and my family.

koliver0821

6th February 2010, 12:49 AM

So today was an ok day for me. yet another down day for my wife. Last night I just crashed. No sleep the night before. Made it through work. I told my wife that when I got home, I would take care of the kids and their homework. I wanted her to get some sleep or whatever she wanted to do. I wont lie, the homework was a chore. Not sleeping much the night before was causing me to have a short fuse for distractions. My kids weren't exactly listening well. Thankfully, I wasn't yelling or it would have been a bad night. As it was, I was dealing wiht my own panic attack.

My wife decided to jump on the computer and facebook. I tried my hardest not sit over her shoulder. In some ways, I do trust her but in other ways, I am cautious. It doesnt help any that I also needed some attention from her. Just a little something. The good news was the time on the computer helped her. She seemed much better. I was almost at wits end. Thankfully the kids finished their homework. The major problem was when we got them to bed, they would stay in bed. Very frustrating. My wife and I made a plan before I got home. Id take care of the kids and get them in bed. Then I would give her a back massage.

The best laid plans as they said. Instead, I had to actual sleep next to my oldest daugher as she was afraid. Apparently, they had a police officers talk abot the dangers of the internet. and she was scared. Needless to say the massage didnt happen. Finally spent sometime with my wife. We just held each other and I kissed her a few times. She sensed that I was having some issues. I tend to do deep breathing as a way to relax and force out negative feelings. Its worked fairly well for me but sometimes, not so much.

Today we had couples therapy. My wife wasn't feeling good right from the get go. I felt rested but not energized. I really wasn't sure what to talk about. worse, my wife said she didnt feel like talking at all. Thats not really a good equation for therapy. When we got there, I told the therapist that I was feeling afraid. I was afraid of my wife's depression. I think it startled the therapist. The last few sessions have been about us. This one was almost solely on my wife. In some ways, i was glad. I need to figure out ways to support her while she is going through this. At the same time, My wife is still wrestling with her thoughts about her love for me. She did tell me she feels them coming back slowly.

After therapy, I called my boss and asked for the rest of the day off. My boss has been cool about my situation. Ive told him everything (with the exception of the affair). I was a little excited to be home and spend time with my wife and 2 youngest for the mid afternoon. It also gave me a chance to talk to my wife. Things got a little weird when her sister called. her sister and her husband appear to be separating themselves. My wife is trying to be there for her sister. Sadly, she cant even be here for herself and she's always trying to help. This didnt set a good emotion through her and the rest of the afternoon, she was less than energized.

Some of the good parts of our conversation were actually about me. We talked about how I can handle her affair. how was I able to change my tune about affairs. (originally told her it would be the death nail to our relationship in my mind. However, it could be still. It just wont be me breaking it off) I told her I did a lot of thinking even before our separation. I was slowly trying to change my tune as it relates to being a better person. I had been dealing with my own depression for over a year. In the days after the separation, i've changed so much but I do realize that some of that power is love and from Him. I think its no coincidence that i've found some resolve since going to church. I told my wife from a spiritual sense, ive changed. We also talked about the night where we were kissing. I asked if she felt anything during the kisses or was it really just the alcohol and she kinda smiled. She said she knew it wasnt just the alcohol. The rest of the afternoon got worse for her. Mainly becuase she had to go to work. Its time for her 3 straight graveyard shifts. Im praying so hard that she can get through these days.

koliver0821

6th February 2010, 12:00 PM

I also told my wife in the therapy session that I wanted to make sure IM back in the house for the proper reasons. I know with her depression that I can certainly make life easier for her just by being around to help more. However, the underlying issue isnt just a need for space. Its also her feelings for love for me. I feel alone when im around her sometimes. I just cant explain it. Im usually pretty good at picking up energy from another person and it scares me that im not feeling that back. I think thats the reason why im get so down sometimes. Its not always like that. Just at times.

Looking for strength right now. Strength to handle my own depression and as well as the strength to support my wife through hers. lastly, the strength and resolve to repair our relationship.

Raymond

6th February 2010, 12:08 PM

It's good that you are praying Oliver. Your relationship with Him is crucial. With your wife as she is, your strength will be a big positive. You seem an insecure person to me but deep down in your spirit if you have given Him your life He has saved you for eternity. One still has to sort out things I know, but the biggest security comes from Him. He is number one. He will not let you down. You can trust Him with your marriage. If you can draw on that it will be a big help. It's all about relationship not religion.

I don't know why your wife is depressed. Is it to do with the affair or was it before that? She will need all your care and understanding. Try not to fear as fear brings torment and is contagious. His perfect love casts out all fear. You need to be strong in Him. I know it is easy to say but you have to try. Lots of people are racked by fear but we don't have to have it.

A scripture comes to mind from memory: Be anxious for nothing but by prayer and supplication let your requests be made known to God and the peace that surpasses all understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

Raymond

koliver0821

6th February 2010, 12:56 PM

Unfortunately Raymond, the depression could have been showing before the affair. Only I didnt see all the signs. I saw things that made me frustrated at times. Some things that hurt me while it was going on. I just didnt know. At times I got close to finding out (in hingsight). Things like messages back and forth that I could see. Some email exchanges that I saw when she asked me to look into her email for something. She told me I could look. I told her the same thing, I want total transparency. However, I couldnt get to her cell phone. She deleted every message, every phone call. There were times she would get a little crazy when I had her phone in my hand. Even if it was to put it on the charger.

When we talked before the affair was made public, It was all about what I do around the house. How I didnt openly talk about my feelings. Basically, she didnt know how much I loved her. I now know exactly how she feels. Its how I feel right now and I can understand how it can cause someone to be depressed.

I recently learned that depression in men often comes in a different form than women. It often shows in irritability and anger. I stopped doing things I liked doing and was looking for escapes even before this affair occurred. I just didnt realize the harm it was causing to anyone else. I just couldnt get out of this funk. However, ive been managing. Ive been going to the gym for awhile and since ive lost a lot of weight, I feel better about myself. I started working on my emotional and spiritual self recently and see changes that make me feel like a better human. Better Father, Better husband.

koliver0821

6th February 2010, 09:09 PM

As for being insecure, I've learned that I've had some insecurities all along though right now its about loving someone from the very depth of my souls and learning that the possibility exist that my wife may not feel the same way I do. I know she is trying.

I know that depression can cause people not to feel loving. I know my wife is always better when she is trying to help other people. Here I am trying to be strong for her and the people around her are asking her for help at a time that my wife can't seem to help herself. Yet time and time again, she answers the call for duty. I told her today that IM trying my hardest not to be that person that she needs to care for. Atleast in that way. She has told me that IM important to her. But im not looking for pity. Im looking for love.

I think I need to go read some books. Never in a million years did I think id be reading books about relationships and the insecure feelings I have now since my wife separated with me. I mean, Im back in the house and working. You would think Id be on cloud 9.

koliver0821

7th February 2010, 03:14 AM

My wife asked me why I loved her today. It kinda caught me off guard. I cried. Some response huh? Im crying and giving her few reasons. She has an an astonishing way to care for people. Even to much if thats possible. I think she doesn't know how I can love her after what she has put me through and her affair. She later told me that's her thinking. Deep down, I dont think she asked just for that. I think she is looking for ways to love herself.

koliver0821

8th February 2010, 01:29 AM

Today was another interesting day. Had another emotional talk with my wife. Its funny, when im down she seems to be better. When shes down, I seem to be better. today I was down but not at the reason I expected.

Yesterday, my brother and his wife had a baby shower. Girls only. No big deal. My wife couldnt make it because she was working and with her overall emotional state, just couldn't handle it. I got a call from my brothers mother in law. I was kinda caught off guard.

Im having some issues with my mother that I didnt really see coming. Ok that is BS. I did see it coming, just havent figured out a way to help her. She has been depressed for quite some time. I've tried time and time agian to get her to go to counseling. She's even lied to me about going. This set me off.

I was talking to my wife and she is wondering why im crying. She thinks its because of her. (Maybe some part of it is our current status) but mostly because I feel like I cant deal with my mother's situation anymore. For the first time, I was speaking frankly to my mom. I told her I loved her but shes causing problems in my relationship with my wife as well as with our grandkids. I also told her if she is feeling alone now, Im feeling that Im not positive I can trust her to watch our kids anymore. (She's actually cancelled babysitting our kids a few times, which canceled my plans with the wife.)

The good news is though my wife was comforting me a little. I told her about my insecurity in our relationship. Its like I awakened someone. I wasn;t crying about this. I was only telling her how I feel. (something very new to me) We kissed and hugged. Kissed again. She told me she cant wait to go away next weekend with me which made me feel really good.

another hour or two later she calls me up to the bedroom and we talk more. She said she can't believe how much ive changed in the past 8 weeks. She said I'm like a completely different person. I wont lie. I feel like that too. I told her I feel a little unsure of my footing but I feel good.

Raymond

8th February 2010, 11:16 AM

You are doing great Oliver and your wife has noticed it. Have a really nice break together. I think you both really need it.

Raymond

koliver0821

8th February 2010, 11:02 PM

Thanks Raymond. I feel so bad for my wife right now. My depression is lifting. Though Im sure it has something to do with medication, prayers, and love. Love of myself, Love of god, and of course the love of my wife. However, she is working through hers and Im not sure she truly believes she will get better.

koliver0821

9th February 2010, 03:57 PM

What a difference a day can make. I can't get the smile of my face. I feel fantastic. The more I talk about my feelings the better I feel all around. I can even hear the spark of confidence that my wife used to have. I've been telling her each day that she sounds better. (Not sure if I really believed it but I was certainly telling her). Last night was the last of her weekend shift. She ended up picking up another shift so she can have 5 straight days off. However, although she worked, we talked quite a bit on the phone. And not about trivial stuff. About feelings. When she came home she initiated a hug. And I leaned into give her peck and she slipped me some tongue. It was a small kiss but hearing her moan just a little makes me know that she feels something each time I kiss her. That is quite a powerful feeling. Its more like an sub-conscious moan that is free from filtering.

I know we have tons to work on with regards to communication but Im so ready for this. Im feeling alive.

Raymond

9th February 2010, 08:51 PM

Wow Oliver. You are really getting somewhere. Sounds like she is healing slowly. Thats wonderful.

Raymond

koliver0821

11th February 2010, 06:14 PM

Slowly healing yes. Last night was an interesting night. Good night, good conversation, intimate emotionally and physically. The part that scared me (terrified me) was that she mentioned conversations that she had with co-workers and friends. Funny, how I wasn't fully aware of my wife's problems with our relationship. I told her after the day of separation, that I felt like I lived with blinders on. Part of that is because of the way I handled problems. nothing seemed that explosive. We were actually getting along. not arguing. We only argued when she would go out with her cousin. When i say argue, I wouldn't get upset. I was ok with her going out. Just wanted her to spend some of that time with me.

why am I bringing this up now? Last nights conversation kinda goes into the file for experience sake. It sounded like she had made lots of plans or had pretty intense conversations about divorce. She talked about Alimony, child support with her friends. She even told me some of her friends said you should try and get everything you can. These people dont even know who I am and they think she should bleed me dry. My wife atleast told me she wouldn't ask for alimony if it ever came to it. (Geez thats a relief.....) Im sorry, im feeling anxious. She asked me what I thought and I told her I never thought about divorce. Not once. The only time I even gave it a mention was when she asked me to give her space.

Like I said, it terrified me. It sounded like she was making advanced plans of our future before the separation. It also sounds that she still thinks about us not working out.

the night wasn't a total loss. We each had some wine. Cuddled by the fireplace and kissed and more....

Now today, is also a little different. Im feeling anxious. I did wake up in the middle of the night and just thought about the way my wife had made plans. (from everything I've read, its not uncommon) This morning I woke up feeling a little bit insecure. My kids didnt make it any easier as well. 2 out of 4 were screaming about not wanting to go to school. It wasn't exactly easy. My wife was sitting in bed and as my oldest is clinging to her. I wasn't yelling or anything. Just kept telling my oldest daughter that she needs to get dressed. She starts crying her eyes out. My wife then asks me why im acting bitchy. Bitchy? I can certainly sense some frustration in me at the time. Here I am trying to get the kids all ready for school, breakfast, and such and my wife is sitting on the bed asking me that. What Ive understood is that the way I feel overwhelmed now is exactly how my wife felt or still feels.

Ive been busting my butt trying to clean up around the house. Doing laundry, making dinner, breakfast, lunches, etc.. What i didnt see is my wife attempting to help. I'm not feeling confident enough to tell her she needs to try. I feel like she is trying with me which means a lot but I think some of the frustration and overwhelming feeling she has is partly due to our house and the kids.

Back to today, I've talked to my wife because I was feeling anxiety. The medication im on can bring that as a side affect. So im just talk to her or chat on the phone. Nothing major is discussed. just more or less talking to think about something other than anxiety Im feeling. I thank her for being there for me. (I know she would be) My gut is telling me something. Im not liking what its telling me either. Something tells me that my wife is trying but is still not feeling love for me. That Im part of the problem or cause of her feeling overwhelmed. Feeling down even after a good night. I just got off the phone with her. She was a bit snippy with me. She's running late for her doctors appointment and doesnt have cash for a toll road. I can tell shes overwhelmed. Im just trying to listen to her and see if there is anything I can do and it deosnt seem like thats helping. I feel helpless. Her cousin called just as we were about to hangup. She is firming up plans for my Birthday tomorrow. but the part that hurts the most is that I can hear the crying that is just about to begin on the phone. Im thinking of crying myself. I can only think of her....

Raymond

11th February 2010, 07:47 PM

You wife seems to take advice from some pretty shallow characters Oliver.

This really needs to be put behind you. All this talk of possible divorce etc. It's not healthy to bring it up. I think something unhealthy comes in with it.

It must feel very insecure to believe you are being tried out by your wife. Are you sure that is happening? A christian marriage is one of commitment, weathering it through with each other where necessary. It is a decision of the will as well as feelings. There shouldn't be this insecurity if you are both christians and made your vows in the sight of God.

Obviously both need to work on the marriage but there shouldn't be this insecurity. All the choices happen up front before the wedding. Having chosen you both need to have that security that a commitment has been made to love each other. This affair has caused a lot of insecurity it seems, as with talk of divorce.

I think you need to talk about this with her. She needs to make a commitment to you, if necessary repeating your marriage vows in a service. I think she owes you that. That is what an ordinary christian marriage should be. The only thing that can break it is adultery and even that doesn't have to break it. It is up to the one wronged whether they think repentance has taken place and they want to forgive.

This is just wearing you down Oliver. You need to know that she is there for the long haul. I can't imagine living like that personally and I don't think God designed it to be like that. Having a good day is not enough. You both need the long term security of commitment. It is a question of honour really. Honouring the vows you freely made before God. When that is there marriage can be a lot of fun. The scriptures are very clear on this.

Raymond

koliver0821

11th February 2010, 08:17 PM

Raymond, Thanks for your response. I agree that I need to find a way to put my insecurity to bed. The talk of divorce was from my wife. Im not suggesting that her friends are shallow. Honestly, they are just supporting her in whatever decision she was to make.

The fact that she asked me back into the house full time is a commitment. I did mention before I left originally that I didnt want to come back if she does this again.

The problem of my insecurity is not from the affair. Its from the I love you but not in love with you comment. It scared the dickens out of me. Seeing her down bothers me as i feel like the major factor in her depression. The problem really is that I feel like Im being tried out. she isnt saying that but she saying it will take time to get things back to normal. So I suppose that is a commitment, but just hearing her talk about other outcomes besides a stronger marriage is worrisome. I dont think thats healthy either.

the fact that you mention renewing our vows is interesting. I've actually thought about that. But to be honest, I dont think we are there yet. We are still married and although a work in progress, I think I need to be patient about doing that.

As for the affair, its been forgiven. the insecurity that it brought is unfortunately, something I will deal with. Part of it reading someone else s story on here about how they tried to make it work but it failed. If there is one piece of good news is that when i tell my wife that I love her, she tells me she knows I do. Its different from before where she would sometimes say, do I love her? (I guess now the shoe is on the other foot)

Raymond

12th February 2010, 02:25 PM

Maybe you are not at that place yet Oliver but I think a renewal of the vows is something to work towards if you are both up to it.

I see that you have brought up again "I love you but am not in love with you". Can't that be another way of saying we seem to be losing the spark, putting the best spin on it? This obviously haunts you. I don't think anyone can stay in love in that sense all the time. It is an act as well as a feeling. The feeling follows the act. I really love my wife but if I felt that the spark was going it's a reminder for me to do something about it. It is really unwise to say the above I think and if you are committed you don't say that. Thank goodness the love is deeper than just my feelings.

Might it have been said at the time of the affair? The affair itself would diminish the feeling of love for one's husband.

On your other point where you see yourself as the reason for your wife's depression on what grounds do you base this belief on? Are you responsible for any problem she gets? You can surely help, but why are you the cause? Might not her guilt about the affair be a reason? Sometimes I think you have an over developed sense of conscience that works against you and accuses you. That isn't from God. Who do you think the accuser of the brethren is? Look it up. A conscience is a good servant but when we get into punishing ourselves something is wrong.

Raymond

koliver0821

16th February 2010, 05:03 PM

Thanks Raymond. I appreciate that. Once again, i think for a majority of our separation, my wife made me feel like I was the major reason why it wasn't working out. That I hadn't given her much attention. That I wasn't doing enough around the house. That I wasn't being nice with the kids. etc. To be honest, I took it to heart.

I looked back at who I was for a greater part of the year and realized I haven't the person I should be. I was bitter. I was irritable at lots of little things. I was completely stressed and wasn't feeling good about myself. I really blamed everything on me. I was driving myself deeper into depression as I was doing this. My wife said to me on many occasions that I wasn't the only person in the wrong. However, i didnt believe her. I think all of this self loathing was the real reason my wife actually said anything about the affair. That and maybe the few drinks that she had in her.....

My wife and I had weekend away this past weekend. Friday was my birthday so I took the day off and we basically lounged in bed all day. We ended up booking a hotel for two days and nights so we could be away from our house. We drank wine, we talked, we slept, and I prepared for Valentines day. We were intimate.

Friday night, we made love. We had some drinks and sat in the jacuzzi for a little while and made it back to our room. it was romantic, it was relaxing and it felt great. Saturday morning I could sense something about her. We grabbed breakfast at the hotel. We came back to the room and she was still tired. I took this as sign that she wanted to be alone. (im still trying to give her space when I think she wants it.) I decided I would get a haircut and had some other things related to Valentines day that I figured I would take care of.

Saturday night, we ended up hitting a restaurant that my wife and I have been going to since we started dating. It was her idea so I was actually excited that she was thinking this way. (remembering the roots of our love). It was a good dinner. Though the car ride home was a little quiet. I was trying to talk to her but she seemed distant. So I didnt press her. We ended up going to a bar and have a beer or two. We get back to hotel and decide to hit the sauna again. Once again, my vibes are telling me something. There is another couple in the jacuzzi while we are there so we are not talking about anything serious. Though, she didnt appear interested in holding my hand or anything. When the other couple left, she almost immediately went to the other side of the jacuzzi. I kinda followed her as it was something I noticed. once again, she moves away. So i keep my distance but still talk to her. We finally head back to our room and my wife wants to cuddle. Im all for it.

Valentines day I tried to surprise her. On Saturday, I bought a dozen roses and brought them to the hotel. The people at the front desk allow me to leave the roses behind their desk so I can pick them up. I had a great card which I add my typical long winded prose (similar to here!). I sneak out early in the morning to get the roses and bring it up before she wakes up. Mission accomplished. When she finally wakes up, I have the roses in the bathroom along with her card. She goes in and comes back out without saying a word. To be honest, I was crushed. I cant believe she didnt even say a word. I was hurting. She asks me what is wrong and I said are you blind? So I direct her to go to the bathroom again. And finally shes them. She is surprised. Its the first time in awhile that I have been able to surprise her. She usually sniffs them out. I have more surprises for her as well. When we get home, I made a home made poster with some of our wedding pictures and a charm. She is completely shocked. I dont usually have any artistic ability but this was probably the best thing ive done.

koliver0821

16th February 2010, 05:17 PM

I figured I would break up my thoughts on the weekend because there are things that i would love to talk about with anyone who has advice.

My wife and I talked this morning. really talked. my wife has admitted to me that she feels awkward after making love to me. She told me that she feels kinda of "used, cheap etc." I get her to expand a little on that and she said that she didnt feel that way before the affair. However, she felt that way before in other relationships. What Im getting at, is I believe this could be a measuring stick in how she feels love. Before the affair, she knew she was in love with me. She never felt awkward after making love. After the affair, she has felt awkward. The problem for me is that I never sensed that from her. atleast, until recently. So far, with the exception of the day after her admitting the affair, we made love after we have had a few drinks. Some of the deepest kissing we've done since the separation had involved alcohol. Not that should be an issue but at the very least, gives me reason to pause about our experiences.

So this scares me. Is this normal? I mean, i know I love my wife but my wife is having concerns about how she feels after making love. I think she desperately wants things to work out between us so she may have made love to me thinking it would help. Im just afraid it isnt helping or worse, causing her more problems.

The good news about her depressive state is that I havent seen it surface to the point it had a couple of weeks ago. If it has, it happened while I wasn't around my wife. I guess I dont truly believe I was the cause of her depression. Sure I was part of the problem. However, Its obvious to me that her affair caused her problems as well. Problems that didn't really surface until I showed her how much I really love her.

Raymond

16th February 2010, 07:13 PM

Oliver you haven't mentioned this I don't think but I am almost certain that your wife slept with this person by hearing about the symptoms you have described.

I am going to speak to you this way as a christian as you seem to be one.

When you sleep with someone you become one flesh. This is clear from the scripture. When we sleep with our wives it is a Godly soul tie for want of a better word. When you sleep with someone outside of marriage an ungodly soul tie can be created. In a sense your wife is somehow tied to this person because of having sex with him. If he walked into a room where she was there will be something between them that is difficult to shake off. This will certainly affect her sexual relations with you. I am talking spiritually you understand if you want me to stop just tell me. There is a solution but I am not going to tell you unless you want it and you ask me for it.

You won't get this information from the medical profession so don't try. As I said this is spiritual stuff in line with the word of God.

When you sleep with someone something of you goes to them and vice versa. A prostitute will often say that she doesn't know who she is as parts of her have gone all over the place.

I will await for you to contact me if not you can drop it if you want and I will say nothing but I believe what I know will be part of the solution. I do have personal experience of leading a wife to freedom in this.

Raymond

koliver0821

16th February 2010, 07:43 PM

Raymond, feel free to hit me up. let me know how you want to exchange info.

Ill be honest, im not sure that my wife slept with this other person. I mean, I've prepared myself to hear this as a possibility. But truthfully, I dont care. The only reason why I would want/need to hear this detail would be so we could move on together as a couple. If that is a block from her getting better and feeling love towards me, than I would welcome it. (How amazing is it that I am over the affair to this extent.)

I agree that from a spiritual standpoint, this is the battle I need/want to win. I made an Valentine's poster. It contained 6 pictures from our wedding day. Two of them were from the church we got married in right with the alter. This was no coincidence. I had quotes on the poster board as well. Some were quotes from songs that are special to us. (wedding day songs) as well as a few quotes from the bible. (our reading at our wedding.) My wife did get me a small birthday gift. It was a picture frame with the quote Love is patient, love is kind, love never fails."

We have a connection, but I know im scared. I know she is scared. I am looking for inspiration. Im looking for patience in trying times.

Raymond

17th February 2010, 01:52 PM

You may not have a problem with this Oliver but your wife may well have. I know you have forgiven her. If it did happen then it could have the affect on her which you describe. I don't really want to pry but it could be that the affects are with her and she would need spiritual help which I can explain simply through you perhaps on a private e mail and not on here. She may well need help on this from what you have described to me. It is possible that the loss of connection she feels has to do with this.

I hope I am wrong here but if I am right there is a problem that needs dealing with.

Raymond

koliver0821

17th February 2010, 03:56 PM

Raymond, whats the best way to exchange an email as to not leave it open to everyone?

koliver0821

17th February 2010, 05:20 PM

So last night, I was really in melancholy kind of mood. I luckily got out of work early due to a snowstorm but unfortunately, I had to drive home. A normal 30 minute drive took almost 2 hours. When I got home, I was feeling stressed. White knuckle driving all the way home. Saw so many accidents. (I just got my car back from an accident my wife was in right before we separated.)

I get home and my wife tells me she is feeling cold. (actually chilly,) and walks right to the fireplace. I took that as a sign that she needed space. The house was a little messy. my wife is yelling (not very loud) at the kids because they made a mess of the living room. My young kids decided to move chairs into our living room to create a movie theater so we could all watch a movie.

I'm actually a little sad that my wife is yelling at them for putting the chairs in the living room. She was in the room right next to them. Its when i come home that she notices the mess that has happened while she was there. I of course, not wanting to rock the boat right now dont tell her why im acting different. I tell her im just stressed about my drive home (which I was)

The good news is that my kids all come crashing out of the living room to give me hugs. I know this sounds silly but before Halloween my kids didn't like me. Partly because I am always the disciplinarian. I mean they loved me but I was so stressed that I was really not a nice person to be around. My kids are always hugging me now. Even my boy which I'm more ecstatic to see. I've learned to be more patient and communicate my frustrations tons better.

koliver0821

17th February 2010, 08:01 PM

The funny part is, I actually do like who I am now. I know I didnt before. Unfortunately, I dont like all of me. I am obviously a little low on self esteem. The affair, albeit, a major blow was/is not the real reason. I've been holding this something back with my wife because I know it to be true. The space she wanted before may actually be something she truly needs. Our relationship has improved mightily since she has come clean about the affair. We both have that very uneasy feeling at times when we are walking on egg shells. But I can't make her love me. She certainly loves the change in me. She tells me that she is feeling more for me but she feels guilty that she can reciprocate her love for me at the same level. (This is just hog wash. I think it truly means she can't reciprocate her love that she doesn't have.)

Yesterday when we spoke, we talked about our sexual encounter of the night before. We had sex. It felt good to me. Not just physically but emotionally as well. Since my wife admitted to feeling awkward, I told her that perhaps it is just too soon. Then she feels guilty because she is my wife and im her husband. That she doesnt believe she should feel that way. I tell her she can't help how she feels and that feeling will subside when she is ready. What I didn't tell her is that feeling could just grow worse but im about hope today.

She had told me when she was with her ex bf (before we met) that she couldn't even stand kissing him. That she really felt love for him but like a brother. Funny how our situation is similar yet different. I can keep walking down the rabbit hole I suppose and ask her if there was a time that she felt sexual for him, but not love for him. Cause if that is the case, I know exactly where I will be in the future.....

The good news is that she really does respond to me sexually. If I kiss her I can hear her moan. when I was rubbing her leg she was moaning. When we spoon, she wiggles her bum against me. She apologizes for teasing me. Even though she feels awkward, she responds to me. That has to be basic instinct LOL. Sadly, I dont mind it. actually I love it cause I really think that means something for us. But as for her feelings of guilt and awkwardness, I have no ammo for this. The only thing I think that means is that im really a special friend. Someone whom she sees being in her life forever but perhaps not in the same way i see her as being in my life.

Funny how a complex situations can get. Who the hell knows? I know I needed to change for the sake of my marriage. For the sake of my relationships with my wife and my children. I have softened my heart towards everyone. Now I must wait until my wife softens her heart more to me......

Raymond

17th February 2010, 10:25 PM

Raymond, whats the best way to exchange an email as to not leave it open to everyone?

I've got a seperate yahoo account Oliver. Rayblondie50@yahoo.com just for this particular spiritual business.

I'll explain what a soul tie is and if you want to go further it's up to you. It may be that your wife needs this help or it may turn out that she doesn't. You are the best one to find out.

Raymond

koliver0821

17th February 2010, 10:41 PM

Hi Ray, the email bounced back to me.

Raymond

18th February 2010, 02:03 PM

Thats a bit odd. I usually get those.

Can you try Rayblondie@googlemail.com ?

Thanks

Raymond

koliver0821

18th February 2010, 06:52 PM

So im talking about softening my heart towards my wife. Towards everyone really. But I realize, I have some anger in me today. Maybe not anger. I think its more frustration mixed in with a little bit of anxiety.

I guess, i do feel like im living in limbo right now. For all intensive purposes, my wife's idea of a separation wasn't going to be like it was. She didnt really think it through. She probably thought I wouldn't be around as much. She could practice being single/separated. Then when she works, im living in our house. Raising our kids as normal as she is sorting her life out. I told her then, I felt like im the only one that is being forced to figure things out. I realize that she had probably been thinking about this for awhile. I think she didnt know how I would react. All I know is that she likes the changes that I've undergone.

Over this weekend, we kinda laughed at how our roles have reversed. She truly didnt know how much I loved her. I wont lie, it bothers me. She never said anything that made me feel that way. Maybe some questions about women that I talk to from time to time. Now I feel like im the one questioning her. I told her a few days before I moved back into the house, that it might take awhile for me to get over this separation. This was before the affair was even mentioned to me. Hearing her talk about not knowing her love for me is very unsettling. I told my wife I can't stand myself for feeling so anxious. Im not so worried that my wife will cheat on me again. Im more worried that Im heading for a giant fall. Like im giving this all my attention that it truly deserves. Im showering my wife with the love she has always wanted and deserves but in the end realizing that I can't make my wife love me. Atleast in that way.

I worked so hard to get back in the house because I believed that was the right thing for me and our marriage, our kids. However I truly overlooked the simplest of all explanations for our separation. That maybe she just doesn't love me anymore. Im sure all of the stuff I do is great. I am definitely more open about my feelings. Im certainly helping out more around the house. I was there for her when she was at the lowest point in her life. I know she cares for me a great deal. I can feel that. I have felt that when I was feeling low. She tells me she loves me and I do believe her, but knowing that she is doubting her love for me is slowly killing me. I did speak with one of my closest friends last night. I told him about everything. I was talking to him about my wifes feeling awkward after making love/having sex. He put some spin on something that IM going to try with my wife. He said, dont consider it awkward. Consider it new. Like a new relationship. A new experience. I know I dont consider it knew. Except that I do feel more emotional during the act itself than I can ever remember.

Thank god im talking to my shrink today.

koliver0821

19th February 2010, 04:55 PM

Talked to the Shrink and realized I had much more to say to my wife than him. Though I did talk about my relationship. I have to remember that my sessions should be about me and not about my relationship. I realized I was letting it consume me.

I felt like I had a good talk with my wife. Though, some of it wasn't exactly pleasing to the ear. She told me she did resent me. Its funny how someone who doesn't like you can carry on like that. She said she didnt like the person I had become and didnt want to live her life that way.

Before the affair occurred, my wife said to me that I better shape up and stop being angry. I admit Iwasn't a happy person. Not because of my wife, but I as feeling overwhelmed. It caused me to be inactive and irritable. (I now know that what I was experiencing was actually depression) At that moment, I stopped the name calling and bitterness towards her. I tried to help out around the house. But it was more like baby steps. I was struggling keeping up with the house and at the same time my wife all but quit doing stuff as well. She had basically turned to her fantasy life online. Talking to this man that she ended up having an affair with.

This is why I will take some of the blame for her affair. However, the affair had more to do with her and the guy she was talking to than me. I truly believe this guy was targeting my wife. Kept escalating the conversation and caused her to cloud her judgment.

My wife admitted to me last night that she didnt want that life with me. And that she deserved better. She also changed her story about the affair slightly. She originally told me that she broke it off. She now told me that when they got caught, she wanted to continue the affair, but the guy she had the affair with was trying to stay with his wife. Looking back, I can see all the signs of her depression or sadness over the ending of her extra affair.

She continued to go out with her cousin and it got so bad that even my kids were yelling at her for going out. again at the time, I was ok with it. The kids made the observation before I did.

I need to get out some of my resentment right now. There were times that my wife remembers when I would get home from work or the gym, that Id be upset. That I upset the mood of the house when I came home. I remember all the times I would just get sad after getting home and having my wife sitting on the computer and the kids are running around the house making a mess or eating what ever they want. When I got home, the kids would ask me whats for dinner? Sometimes it was around 800pm or later when I would get home. The times I didnt go the gym, my wife made plans to go out. once again, I was ok with it.

Yesterday, I also told my wife that she needs to step it up too. That the very thing that she complained I wasn't doing and the way I was acting a few months ago is the exact way she is acting now. Man, I felt relieved saying that. She actually said she agrees.

Although I left my shrinks office feeling kinda negative, my mood switched. I got home and noticed that my wife wasn't home yet. I was actually kinda upset at her. If she went somewhere and didnt tell me. I know I was at a dr's appointment but I didnt understand why she hadn't called to let me know she was staying out. I called a couple of times and got no answer before my appointment. I finally get a hold of her and she tells me she just picked up dinner for us. All of my bitterness about her going out without telling me was drained from me. I guess the part of it was that she actually decided to get something for me. It was a surprise. I was figuring Id have to get dinner ready for the kids and everything as been the recent trend.

Raymond

19th February 2010, 07:11 PM

So alls well that ends well Oliver.

I take it that she doesn't feel like that now? I mean her previous resentment. That has gone now? You have changed a lot.

Raymond

koliver0821

19th February 2010, 07:52 PM

raymond,

I think its two things. The bigger of the two issues is that she needs to learn how to forgive herself. She has extremely low self worth right now that started when she began feeling guilt over the affair. That guilt didnt start right after the affair. It happened when that relationship officially ended. Based on last nights conversation with my wife, she didnt want the affair to end. Atleast at the time. After it was officially over, thats when some of her guilt started to come through. We've made love countless times since the affair happened. I never caught on to any internal struggle that she was going through.

I still believe she also needs to forgive me. Her resentment of me may be constructed as excuses for the affair. However, they are very real to her and therefore, in order for her to have true healing, she will need to forgive me as well. I am no angel in all of this. I am certainly part of the problem as it does take two to make a relationship work and two to have a relationship break apart.

Adding more to our environmental issues, her cousin was required to speak out in court regarding yet another friend who is going through a divorce. Apparently her friend cheated on her husband. They thought they were going to have an amicable divorce but apparently, he changed his mind and is using the affair against her for custody of the kids. Fantastic because I then have to talk to my wife about divorce, even though Im not considering it. (Im getting the feeling that she is)

Even more, Her cousin is actually thinking of leaving her husband for the person she's having the affair with. I know I should be directing some of my venom at my wife and the person she had the affair with. Since i know my wife is down right now, im not adding to her misery saying it was her fault. Im "blaming" the guy she had the affair with for "preying" on her. Im also blaming her cousin for not stepping up to set her straight about going forward with the affair. The guy was a friend of her cousin. I have all these "I told you So" moments stuck in my head.

I have forgiven her, so please do not read into what im writing as me being angry at her. If anything, im frustrated that im now in this position because I feel we (our relationship) can be saved and she is still feeling doubts. She doesnt think she will ever feel better. In some ways, that made me feel better. because if thats her concern, I know she will feel better. It just doesnt happen overnight.

koliver0821

20th February 2010, 02:03 AM

And again im bitter. I come home and my wife is on facebook. Not that really is a problem but once again, I see the room is a mess and my daughter is running around with toilet paper. I just got home from work. Kinda stressful day at work. I know I need to get some relaxation. The kids instantly ask me for food when I get home. They are hungry. For months, Ive been the only one cooking them dinner. My wife feeds them, but its mostly takeout when she was on the road with them.

I feel bad. I feel jealous. Im not liking who I am right at this moment. I hate being insecure and I was never like this. My wife is talking to some guy on facebook and im practically reading every word. She said hello when I walked in the door but that was about it. I was a chicken sh^& and didnt tell her that I would appreciate her getting off facebook for a moment or two. Why didnt I say that. Instead, She talks to this guy (coincidentally, she met with her cousin) and I hover over her like an idiot. I know im doing it, its making me feel even more stressed.

I find a way to communicate with her. I log onto my Ipod touch and get on facebook myself. Send her a few messages. She laughs since im literally right behind her. But this time, Im not looking at her screen. So we talk on there. It makes me feel better. When she finally finishes, its about time for her to leave for her hair appointment.

I apologize for hovering and finally tell her that I should have said that I wanted her to get off of facebook so we could talk. I hate us being a work in progress. Why is this so freaking difficult.

koliver0821

21st February 2010, 12:20 AM

Feeling down today. I knew I was going to have a bad day once I woke up. Luckily I got my butt out of bed and drove to the gym. I made sure the kids had breakfast and left my wife to tend to them while I was gone.

I went to a Cardio boxing class that my wife and I used to go to. I'm probably in my best shape since college though, my lungs arent feeling that way. Definitely felt better after the gym. Called to ask my wife if she wanted coffee or anything and I could tell that she was still in bed. 4 kids running around the house and she is still in bed. I was hoping that she would get up even if it was to watch tv downstairs. I also realized she sounded irritable on the phone.

I get home and she tells me that I seem distant. Man, I hate that. Even if I am distant. Truly, I was just bringing up the coffee and was hoping to sit down and talk to her. The kids made that impossible. No worries. I flip on a movie though, in hindsight, probably should have picked a better one considering my situation (We watched "He's just not that into you").

Her cousin was throwing bday party for her daughter. (yes the same cousin) I felt out of place there. My wife was helping out and so was I. (I would have moved furniture so I could keep from sitting still). At this time, Im feeling needy and insecure. I just want to hold my wife's hand but I get the feeling she's not interested. I wont lie. It sucks feeling this way. I remember times when my wife would just walk up and kiss me or just put out her hand for me to hold it while we were driving (in fact two days before our separation).

At times, I feel like im falling apart. I have this giant pit in my stomache and pressure I feel in my chest. I can breathe but I swear I can feel my heart breaking. Today when that happened, I went for a walk outside from the birthday party. Couple of deep breathes and felt better but I wasnt really liking the feeling. My intuition over the past year has served me well. I just hope what my gut is telling me is wrong. That my wife isnt really feeling anything for me romantically. It makes me feel guilty to even say I love her because I think she feels obligated to answer "I love you too." I suppose she should feel obligated. Once she stops responding to that, im toast.

koliver0821

22nd February 2010, 03:39 PM

Yesterday was a much better day. Sadly, i spent most of it cleaning. Doing laundry, folding clothes, mopping floors, going out to breakfast with my kids (wife was sleeping) and cleaning my daughters room (Man was it a mess)

Since I was home with the kids, i was little worried that they would wake up my wife but miraculously, they listened to me and stayed downstairs for most of the day. That was until I cleaned their "blessed" playroom. Once they could walk in the room it was over but its certainly cleaner than before. Over the course of our separation, I have cleaned each room. I'm not looking for a medal but yesterday was the first day that my wife actually thanked me for all the help I've been giving her.

It got better when my wifes sister dropped by. Had a few drinks and was pretty relaxed. Actually pretty buzzed. Though I did get a little cranky with comments to my wife. They were both on facebook while we were hanging out together. I realized it's much better to live just blurting out whats bothering me.

Raymond

22nd February 2010, 06:36 PM

Keep working at it Oliver. It's commitment you really need from her. Talking to guys on facebook is not helpful. She only needs to work at it like you do and you'll be there.

Raymond

koliver0821

22nd February 2010, 08:31 PM

This is what I think I need help with. I know my wife still needs "space" to find her love for me. She admitted that she feels guilty that she cannot reciprocate the love that I show her. In all honesty, I think I need to start trying the 180 thing though, im not exactly sure how to do that while we are living together.

Specifically, I constantly tell my wife that I love her. In fact, I always have. For whatever reason though, she didnt believe me when i said it before. However, I feel like im making it worse for her by saying it to her. So I will only say it if she says it to me. Or who knows maybe its not the right thing. its sounds silly that saying something I believe in may be causing my wife more problems.

I think I made a dent showing honest to goodness change in my behavior. I obviously want to keep working on us.

Last night the wine left me with some loose lips. I told her that my biggest fear is that it doesnt matter how much i do. That its still possible that she wont find that love for me. (Should have kept that to myself).

Hows this for feeling. I got a blackberry message from my wife thanking me for everything that I've been doing and that she enjoyed drinking wine with me. And that she loved me.

I wont lie, it felt incredibly good to get a message like that from her. I wasn't expecting it. Of course, as the day went on, I tried to keep my contact as light as possible. I didnt want to call her or send her any messages except that I appreciated the nice message she sent me. (and how sore I am from going to the gym on Saturday). the problem is she sounded low when she called me. I felt a little weird since she started talking about my comment from last night and about our relationship.

Basically, im looking for any help from anyone who has tried this "divorce busting" idea.

koliver0821

23rd February 2010, 04:18 PM

Last night my wife's sister came over with her kids. I think she was doing it for the kids but also to try and cheer my wife up. I could see my wife hurting. She was really down. This is school vacation week so she didnt need to get up to get the kids to school. So she didnt. Unfortunately, she didnt do much all day. I told her sister that one of the reasons why I didnt think "space" was a good idea was that I dont think Michelle can handle some of the day to day stuff with the kids. I told this to my wife a couple of days after our separation and man did she get angry. However, after talking to my kids about how their days are going when they have been home, it sounds like my kids are ok but they are doing things on their own. My oldest daughter is cooking mini pancakes (microwave) for everyone for breakfast and lunch. Or they are eating snacks that they can reach. By the time dinner comes around, im home and have been taking care of that. I dont want my wife to get angry with me. I dont know what to do.

To be completely honest, my relationship issues, albeit important, are secondary to my wife's health and my kids health.

Last night, I drank with my wife and her sister. I decided I wasn't going to dote on my wife. I cooked dinner for my wife and the kids (our's and my sister in laws). I felt fantastic. The wine helped out a little more I suppose but I was just content with the way I feel. Even my sister in law could tell I was in a good place. Obviously, I could be happier if my wife wasn't so down. Her sister and I talked about working out (the gym). Im still recovering from my cardio boxing class on Saturday (Man are my legs sore). However, I was really only talking about it so my wife would think about the gym. She finally said, that she needs to start going again. Sadly, i've heard this for over 2 months now. I cant make her go.

Today I have an appt with my shrink to talk about the medication I'm on. I know its helping but I think I need to up my dosage a little. Not too much but Im not sure if thats my call or the Shrinks..... My wife and I also talked about her changing her medication as well. We also have MC tonight. Not exactly sure what we will talk about tonight. The last time, we talked about her depression. To be honest, im not sure MC is the right thing, right now. I mean not that I dont want to. However, it does us no good if she isnt "there" yet. All the info I've read on depression in relationships, they all seem to say the same thing, get the help individually first before trying to conquer the relationship stuff. It just adds to the "overwhelmed" feeling she has

Some good news for my wife is that her sister is thinking of moving closer to us. In fact they could be moving to our neighborhood. I know it would make her happy. In a selfish way, I'd rather her sister be closer than her cousin. My wife's sister told my wife and I that she doesn't like this "cousin". Even my brother who met her cousin for 5 minutes didnt like her. And this was before anything hit the fan. (Separation, ILYB, etc)