Time to give up trying?

[ogaryo]

Hi, hope you don't mind me diving in with a first post asking you to help me handle / help my wife question..... I'm at my wits end..

My wife has always been, let say, 'challenging' in terms of low self esteme and blaming me for all that's bad in our world.. we have two wonderful children aged 9 and 18 and are ok in terms of finances with the house paid for, some savings, assets such as a nice sports cruiser boat and absolutely no debt. we holiday twice a year, I have a good full time well paid job and my wife loves her part time work.

However, here's the rub.. my wife seemingly loves to argue almost getting a kick from it, you can see the release come to her face as soon as I bite back when provoked and believe me, I try and avoid doing so.

Until now, I've coped and put our near 19 year of marriage down to having more good times than bad but recently it's been an absolute nightmare with me being emotionally abused (I can't think of another way of putting it).. My good lady wants me out but I'm hanging on in there because I think it's down to the following combination of things happening to my wife and I'm hoping we'll eventually turn a corner once she's come to terms with them, with my help if she'd only let me!

My question is this, am I being a fool and I should do as asked and simply cut and run or do I continue to take the pain and hurt in being ignored, shouted at and tormented to the extent that I simply can't think of any ways to help my wife get through the below as she is basically slamming the door in my face to any attempt at doing so..

These are the circumstances:

. she gave up smoking, cold turkey style 3 months ago.
. my wife turns 40 next year and is buying all manner of beauty products.
. my eldest turned 18 this year and we go to the pub very occasionally
. my eldest leaves home to go to uni next year.
. my wife is having pretty significant change at work.. job change
. her dad's been diagnosed with alzheimers recently
. her mum's just split with her long term partner
. my wife's always wnated a daughter but has 3 males to contend with

I am 46, my wife is 39 and she married me at the age of 20, we dated for about a year.

Again, I'm trying all I can to support her but I feel I can only bang my head against a brick wall so often before it hurts so much I have too stop.

I've tried the what do you really need from me talks, treading on eggshells, discussing the above etc etc and the most significant comments back is that I am to blame for all her ill feeling and every argument we've ever had was my fault so she wants to make my life so miserable that I leave!! maybe that's exactly what I should do but despite everything, I still love my wife and I can't imagine not being with my kids at a time my eldest needs me most and my youngest needs a supportive dad around :confused:

[Raymond]

So you are the blame for all her ill feelings? Doesn't sound right to me. She is in deep deception if she believes that. Where do you think she is getting this from? Did her parents have any of this problem that they may have passed on? Does she recant over this when she has calmed down? I think if you left someone else would be the target of these feelings. There is something drastically wrong somewhere. Has she always been like this or is this a latent thing?

There is something illogical about all this. People can argue but basically they want solutions. To want to argue for the sake of it is quite serious. It's like wanting war instead of peace. Is she visiting any clubs or set ups where she could have picked this up. Sounds a bit occultish to me possibly. Is there any basis for bitterness against you? Something that happened in the past perhaps?

Raymond

[ogaryo]

there's a history in her family of seperation.. when I met her Debbie was in serious debt that I paid off as she wasn't working, was living with her step father and wasn't speaking to her parents.. her step father wasn't being a step father at all and I found out she used to put a chair up against the door at night and then a couple of years in to the marriage I discovered she'd been abused in her mid teens too. sexually I think.. I called her grandparents within the first year and eventually got them and her true parents back in touch and they've been great since apart from her dad who she's no longer talking to again for about 6 months now but she wont tell me why (he's a very violent man who's been to prison for GBH)..

I am no saint I must admit and have lost my temper on a number of occasions after a repeated scenario of being jibed and basically followed around the house being prodded until I finally give up and give her what she needs, an argument. During those arguments I've lowered myself to retorting with name calling and once picked the tv up and threw it on the floor in what I now see as a drunken childish testosterone filled way of showing my frustration (I didn't drink alcohol for 6 months after that to show Debbie I was sorry for the action)..

I also got seriously in to fishing in 2003 and spent many weekends away from home with friends for a couple of years... I saw it as a means of dealing with a high pressure job.. leave the brain at home sort of thing and forget about work.. I bought the boat so we could go away for weekends as a family but my wife says she'll not step foot on it as she doesn't want to do something just because I've decided to give up the fishing and concentrate more on the family

Recently I've tried a different tack and said lets put all the past behind us as there's simply no point in digging up old arguments and start afresh making the most of the position we're in to do fun stuff and generally make the most of life.. Debbie wants none of that and keeps harking on about the past about how she can never forgive me for the way I have treated her... I'm convinced something really bad has happened to her in the past and she simply hates men for it or struggles with close relationships.. my biggest regret is reacting to the provocation and effectively giving Debbie reason to point the finger at me as being the bad guy but I must admit it does get my goat that I seem to find myself defending myself all the time.

In short, I am simply desperate for us to be happy but my wife seems hell bent on being the opposite.. she's certainly very sad at present and nothing I do brings her out of it. I also have to admit I'm starting to think the easier option is to find someone else who'll appreciate me and make me feel loved (they would get it back in return 10 fold!)

Sorry for the complete brain dump here.. trying to give you all the details warts and all... one final thing is my wife is definitely sending texts and deleting them, finishes work at 1pm but doesn't get home until 3 or 4pm some days saying she's been shopping coming back with a pint of milk.. I've asked if she is seeing someone and she has said no. It;s a crying shame as we used to have trust where we'd have a family holiday, I would have a week away with the lads in France fishing and then Deb would have a week away with the girls in Ibiza and I would trust her implicitly to have a good time but be faithful.

Not a glowing report for a happy marriage really is it:o the only saving grace is we have two very rounded young men to show for our time togther.

[Helen_uk]

Sounds like your wife had a very troubled early life. Just a thought but maybe she feels more comfortable when life isn't comfortable and settled because that's what she's used to or feels she deserves ?

When people continually pick arguments it can be a form of testing...Maybe she's having problems believing that life can be this good and so is testing you to see if it's going to change ? No-win situation of course..for either of you. If she wrecks the marriage with her arguments she's proven to herself that she was right and life shouldn't be that good ( and you both lose a marriage ) and if she doesn't wreck the marriage then you both lose because you're living in a miserable situation.

This is all supposition on my part , only you can know if it's likely to be the case...

If it is though, you have to find a way to break the pattern . It's impossible not to argue back at times when you're being unfairly goaded and in any case from what you've said not arguing back just makes her up the stakes.

Sounds to me like she has a lot of anger inside over previous problems that weren't dealt with . Did she have the chance to talk to anyone regarding her abusive teenage years ? Would she be prepared to talk to someone now ?

Nothing you can do will change how she feels about herself and it seems like she's dumping it all on you. Blaming you if you like. Because you're the person she feels closest to...

Add to this that she's coming up to an age where many of us women feel we are losing our youth and start to resent the amount of time we've given to raising family whilst putting our own lives on a back burner and you have a recipe for meltdown !

From where I'm standing I think the problems you're having need proffessional help..sorry :-(

[Raymond]

I think Helen has some good insights here.

A lot of this stuff will stem from her childhood. Rejection can be one of the outcomes of an unurtured upbringing. It can be worked through but you almost have to love your enemies before assurance comes that they are now loved, her being the enemy who is loved regardless. I think Helen is right. You are being tested as to whether you will still love her. She is crying out for acceptance deep down. She wants to be accepted for who she is. Once she is aware of this she will catch up on her growth from this bad upbringing.

If you are strong enough keep loving her even when she is nasty and argumentative. It reminds me of someone called Joyce Meyer. In her novel "The Penny" she outlines some of her childhood and the sexual abuse and cruelty she experienced. When she got married she went through a similar thing to what your wife is going through. Now she has a world wide ministry and has written many books.

One tact is to deal with the past. Where she says she can never forgive you because of how you treated her. It is not good to have this unforgiveness in a marriage. Is there any way you can say that you are sorry about this and clear it up whatever it was? You are dealing with an inwardly crippled person here and you have to lean backwards and make sure there are no roots of bitterness springing up. Thats a good place to start I would suggest.

For your sanity I would try and not let yourself be disturbed by her behaviour. Save your strength just to love her and show her acceptance not for the way she is behaving but for her as a person. In other words I love you regardless, but I don't condone your behaviour. This is what she really needs and will be the key to her blossoming out even at this stage of her life. It is never too late.

Raymond

[Helen_uk]

Raymond is spot on there. Actually say the words out loud. I love you regardless but I can't condone your behaviour and I won't argue with you. Perhaps re-affirming your love whilst refusing to be drawn in may just work...

Yes, you've made mistakes and lost your temper in the past. I think we've all done that when someone keeps pushing us. Truth is we can offer apology and show remorse but we all have to go forward. I think your wife is still haunted by her past. Now you and she need to try to work out how to put the past behind you.

[ogaryo]

thanks both.. I think your analysis of the situation is spot on. It's time for me to be strong, put my kids first, my wife second and leave my needs and feelings aside for the moment. I'm going to try and apologise again in the New Year as a reaffirmed new years resolution and then, hopefully, once I have a bit of trust back, we can then start to work on the skeletons in Debbie's closet and prove to her that all blokes aren't like those that treated her so badly in her earlier years.

I have a very good relationship with my mum in law.. do you think it'd be worthwhile enlisting her help to understand what may be causing this from her earlier years? I've tried asking Debbie to tell me exactly what she needs from me (stop doing and start doing sort of thing) and she flatly refused to tell me, so whilst I suspect you're bang on, I'm still somewhat running blind.... possibly because Debbie doesn't want to give me clear direction so it doesn't get fixed or maybe, she's just running on emotions and simply doesn't know what triggered her feelings so is happy to continue to make me the means of venting those bad feelings?

One last point is I said to her if she feels that strongly about it and it is divorce she wants, then start divorce proceeding because I'll not be able to do so as I still love her but I can't go on living like this.. she refused to do so.... I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing as it may be simply a case of her wanting to make things so bad that love turns to hate on my part and I commence a divorce which Debbie believe's puts her in a stronger position when it comes to asset retainment.. myself, I don't give a hoot about possessions, they come way down the list as keeping the family together is far more important.. the throwing the tele on the floor was a result of me trying to show her I don't care about such things (weird what beer does to logic, eh ;-) )

Anyway, thanks again for the excellent advice, and again, sorry for the above ramblings, I hope they make sense.

[Raymond]

Ogaryo it troubles me that you put your kids first and wife second. Your wife should be actually first. That is also security for the kids. Your unity is important for them.

I can understand Debbie not answering when you ask her what she needs from you. It's like telling someone you have to love them when actually you want them to love you because they choose to love you. Just do it even though it is difficult just now.

I don't know how much your mother in law will tell you. Some of it may be her fault. Will she admit to that? It is worth a try I suppose.

While there is time you have to fight for your marriage. Get that apology done and clear the air if you can, but don't apologise unless you mean it and don't take responsibility where you have not been guilty. If she is hurt over something from the past you need to acknowledge your part.

Women like Debbie will be crying out for love deep down even though they may appear not to want it. If you can love her through the sticks and stones you will be doing a great service to her, your family and your marriage and will be a hero in my book. May God help you and give you the grace to do it.

By the way this is the site of Joyce Meyer http://www.joycemeyer.org/ the one who has been through a similar situation to Debbie. You can get the book "The Penny" there or at Amazon. Try and dig up her past and you should get a lot of answers.

Raymond

[ogaryo]

Hi.. agree with most of this but not the kids first thing as the way my wife currently is, I need to ensure they are not affected, if that means doing that through stuff like repeating apologies then so be it but please believe me when I say my apology has already been stated time and again with little effect, it's still a case of never being forgiven. therefore, I don't think further apologies, however heart felt are the root to fixing this but I will try again.

I don't think my wife realises the effect her coldeness is having on the rest of the family.. they can see it, my eldest talks about it and my youngest is becoming increasingly naughty.. I must and will put them first for now, sorry.

I exchanged some txt messages with my wife today.. they went like this word for word (sorry about the language and the long read):

me: whoever's taken control of my wife's body and mind, bugger off and give her back.. thankyou xxx

reply: you have said I've always been like this and I'm sticking up for myself, the name calling, the put downs, the constant mind head **** and if if wasn't for you. well, I don't want you around telling me how **** I am and how I owe you. it's all win the argument, how can I beat her. I was only 18 when I made only a few mistakes, you have bought up something that I have paid you back a million times, you have done a million things to me on a yearly basis I will never forgive you for what you said that new year even though you said you were sorry you are still doing it to me. You say I am killing the family, what about the times you have gone in to a blind rage in front of the kids and I have to protect them from you. You are a mental abuser no better than mine or you dad, of course you will deny this and go in yo a rage, I don't expect anything else from you.

me: I admit I have had my moments Debbie but the vast majority are provoked, you have had a serious number of moments too. At least I am trying to make things better for us whilst you seem to be on a mission to stay in the past. I've said this a million times now, I donlt care who wins, I just want happiness in the family.

reply: you are only happy because you have a big **** off boat in the driveway, that's why you didn't pay any notice to me giving up smoking, the kids xmas presents, the lack of thought in mine. It's not about the money because you have bought me a car before of which I am reminded of which you took away to get a 4 x 4.. it's about the effort you put in to christmas compared to what you've put in to the boat.. now who thinks about the family first!

me: the boat IS for the family and I did put loads of thought in to your presents.. the 'Debbie's Treat" piggy bank is supposed to encourage you to keep off the ciggies and the laser teeth treatment is because you mentioned you wanted them doing over a month ago.. I'm sorry you don't like them.

reply: I am a woman who wants my home clean and inviting not as you lot to keep messing it up. I also think it looks tatty a bit like your boat was. I don't want to keep picking up clothes, plates, ironing etc or moving computer wires from the dinner table, boat gear left around the house.. but like you said, I also want a life.

me: you have a life, you choose not to live it to the full. The house gets messy and we all clean it, including me, and the diy choreswill get done as they always do.. look around for the vast improvements made in the last 14 yrs.

reply: you know I dont like the dentist, the piggy is something that someone would have done 15 weeks ago

me: it's not a dentist, it's quick and painless.. take a look at their website... you don't allow me to compliment you

.....and that was it.. a typical scenario of me being accused of things or anything I do being rubbished as a selfish act, most accusations are usually blown out of all proportion. I call it Debbie's going fishing in my mind as she'll flit from topic to topic until she can find something to dig in to... I have to admit that I have recently stopped telling my wife I love her because always gets the repsonse of "no you don't" or " you don't show that you do".

Reading this back, I feel like giving up trying to be honest which is another reason for concentrating on the well being of the boys.. things like I've changed her car for MY 4 x 4 is rubbish, it's in her name and was bought as a christmas present last year to replace a failing 307. I believe there's givers and takers in life.. I think I've married and out and out taker!

oh... happy new year by the way :)

[Ageing Grace]

me: whoever's taken control of my wife's body and mind, bugger off and give her back.. thankyou xxx

Ouch!

You didn't expect a positive response to that, ogaryo, did you??

Thanks for sharing your conversation; it's illuminating. You're blaming her for a whole lot of stuff there. It sounds as if you want your family to be happier - and are trying to force it to be!

Pardon the "Personal Interactions 101" but nobody's ever managed to improve a relationship by questioning the other person's validity as a human being. You literally did that, in the quote above. You've done it again, by inference, in criticising her response to your Xmas presents. It's a shame she didn't like them, but she's perfectly entitled to have likes & dislikes - and feelings. You've made it seem she was *wrong* not to like them. She can't be wrong - there aren't any right or wrong feelings (only actions).

Somehow I don't think you'll take my advice. But here it is anyway. Apologise.
Apologise, without any buts or if onlys, for dismissing her feelings and for not hearing her. Apologise for your rudeness.

Button your mouth and open your ears. Try to act like you love her. If you can't do that, try to be somewhat interested in her as another human being who has opinions, dreams, likes & dislikes, just as you have.

Happy new year.

[Raymond]

I understand you need to protect the kids if they need protecting Ogaryo. The love extends to all in a family, but the basis of it is the love between husband and wife and in that sense it did bother me when you said she was second.

There are many different things in your texting. To take one, what does she mean when she implies you keep telling her how **** she is and how she owes you? If that is what she is being fed it is not conducive to a good relationship. Add to that her childhood problems and you have a cocktail of relationship disasters.

I notice that AG has nipped in while I was writing and I agree with what she says. No. 1 for a man is always love, not just the feeling, but the action.

I know you are suffering through lack of appreciation but you cannot force this. If you sow good things you should reap good things even if only some of them come up. You meant well with the teeth and the car but there are deeper issues here, some that seem to go back a long way. She may very well owe you as you say but to ram it down her throat is not loving. I think a good start is to quit the negative criticism and try building her up by encouraging the good things she has. We all have good things which can be increased through praise and appreciation, which means thanking when you can as well. Try and show gratefulness for the housework she does. She seems to feel a lack of appreciation there. Also she needs to feel like a woman in her own right and appreciated for who she is not just for what she can do.

There are a few things there you can work on. She is not a **** but a woman who has chosen you to be married to.

Raymond

[ogaryo]

thanks all good points well made and will certainly help me adjust my approach.. I recognise I have some changes to make here too for this to work out.. Enough said for now I guess, I'll let you know how things progress.... it's been a little better today by the way and we're down the mother in law's tomorrow for a late New Years lunch so it'll be interesting to see how that goes.. take care and thanks again for your candid advice and help in general. cheers Gary

[ogaryo]

Ouch!

You didn't expect a positive response to that, ogaryo, did you??

Thanks for sharing your conversation; it's illuminating. You're blaming her for a whole lot of stuff there. It sounds as if you want your family to be happier - and are trying to force it to be!

Pardon the "Personal Interactions 101" but nobody's ever managed to improve a relationship by questioning the other person's validity as a human being. You literally did that, in the quote above. You've done it again, by inference, in criticising her response to your Xmas presents. It's a shame she didn't like them, but she's perfectly entitled to have likes & dislikes - and feelings. You've made it seem she was *wrong* not to like them. She can't be wrong - there aren't any right or wrong feelings (only actions).

Somehow I don't think you'll take my advice. But here it is anyway. Apologise.
Apologise, without any buts or if onlys, for dismissing her feelings and for not hearing her. Apologise for your rudeness.

Button your mouth and open your ears. Try to act like you love her. If you can't do that, try to be somewhat interested in her as another human being who has opinions, dreams, likes & dislikes, just as you have.

Happy new year.

may I suggest that you try your hardest not to judge so harshly on a snippet of time captured in a few posts.. there's circa 20yrs of water passed under our marital bridge, leading up to the content of the text messages I've posted, there's alot of history behind my responses.. you dont know me and I don't know you but one thing I would never do is be so judgemental as your post based on so little detail... shame on you ;-)

[ogaryo]

Raymond, I've read your post several times now and the striking comment is to quit the negativity from myself.. all my learnings in work are based on positive re-enforcement and you're right, my texts are defensive, negative and serve no good even if they are factual... I need to create an air of positivity and convince my wife I love her and that I am worthy of love in return, end of!

[jellybean28]

Hi Ogaryo,
After reading through your posts I think I have an insight as to where your wife maybe coming from. I feel you may be a bit controlling eg you gave up fishing but bought a boat to do things together as a family. Did you discuss this with your wife beforehand or did you just go and do it?

You go away with the boys, she goes with the girls and you do the family thing aswell, these are all good unless it one person feels as if they owe the other person a trip away every time they take time out.

From the texts between you and your wife, it seems to me like you tell her what a good life she has, car, house boat, 2 great kids etc and because of her abusive upbringing this could be making her feel she's not good enough for you!!

I feel there may be a communication problem between you both and this is what is making her argumentative, she is fustrated because she's trying to get her view across, but she's not being understood.

I am not trying to put any blame on either of you, it's just the way I read it from what you have said.

I was in a relationship like this, for 27+ years, but my fear of leaving was that no one else would want me and that I would ruin my kids lives and in lots of ways the marriage was "to good to leave,to bad to stay" (good book to read if you can get a copy). I was abused and rejected by my mother, with threats of being shunned from the family, she still has this hold on me, although since the break up of my marriage, I am much stronger and if that's how she wants to be it's her loss. BTW my ExH couldn't stand her with good reason.

I would suggest that you both go to councelling, and from this a good councillor will help you to understand what it is that you both need from each other.

Tell her in a loving way that you feel councelling would be a good idea, because you love her and want to save the marriage. Please remember don't drag your sons into it, you and your wife love them in your own individual way. Take her some flowers just because, or bring home some take-away (something she likes). Your both at a stage where you seem to be fustrated which will make tempers flare. Get to know each other again, but begin now, or you may find its to late.

[jellybean28]

Oops one more thing

Ageing Grace gave you some good advice as did Raymond, just two different approaches.
It gives me the impression you don't like to take advice from women.

[ogaryo]

thanks JB 28... good sound advice, thankyou for taking time to help.

[Raymond]

thanks all good points well made and will certainly help me adjust my approach.. I recognise I have some changes to make here too for this to work out.. Enough said for now I guess, I'll let you know how things progress.... it's been a little better today by the way and we're down the mother in law's tomorrow for a late New Years lunch so it'll be interesting to see how that goes.. take care and thanks again for your candid advice and help in general. cheers Gary

This is exactly what I would hope for in a scenario like this Gary. If you have got something, even a little, and decide to work on it, that is really great and practical.

Raymond

[ogaryo]

great news.... We're back on track... Kisses, cuddles and talking like adults again. Another chance to take positives out of a dire situation, I understand my wife's needs a little better than before and am sure there's more learning to come... We're certainly happy again and I've got my eldests head straight... The young'un, now that's a different story... Loads of tlc needed there.

Thanks again for your advice.. You're all wonderful

[jellybean28]

orgaryo

Great news, hope things continue to get better for you.
Keep up the great work. :p


JB xxx

[Raymond]

Thats great news Gary. Keep up the good work.

Raymond