Help out an Aussie guy??

[rich84]

Hi everyone, this is my first post and it's going to be a long one, so here goes:

I am a 25 year old Australian man who has been happily married for 3 years, up until about 4 months ago we'd never had any major problems. About 6 months ago my wife and her mother went on a trip to europe (I was unable to go due to needing to close the deal on a new house we'd bought and needed to start renovating it to get it liveable for her return) and apparently this trip was life changing for her. I thought this was a good thing, to broaden her intellectual horizon so to speak, and was happy about this. She always had a problem making friends, and she has made a couple in the last few months (which I was happy about), has lost a bit of weight and is looking very attractive now, and has gained a fair bit of self confidence too. She is usually attentive and affectionate, although occasionally can be very blunt. Of course, I love her to bits. There has (apart from what I'm about to lay out) been no reason for me not to trust her, and I always have with no second thought.

About 4 months ago she started acting differently for about a week... she wasn't affectionate, never said "I love you", didn't want to do anything with me and didn't talk very much. It was difficult for me; I asked her what was wrong. She said she didn't feel attracted to me anymore, that I wasn't looking after myself as well as I should, and a couple of other things - one of my teeth is slightly out of line and I have a receding hairline. I was unhappy that she'd bring up things that I felt there wasn't a lot I could do about, but nevertheless I tried. I am using a treatment for my hair which has helped a lot, I have gotten a quote for my teeth (although as yet have not come up with the money - over $1000) and have tidied up my act as much as I can. I make sure she knows it too. I'm not the most handsome man, but I'm not unattractive either, I have a trim body, am strong, intelligent and can do a wide variety of tasks... I'm renovating a whole house with only myself doing the work; I do all the mechanical work on our two Audis.

At around that time I noticed a few things on my PC. I work as an IT Systems Administrator and am payed to notice things like it, but didn't think to look on my own PC. I was looking in the web history for a car DIY I had seen the day before and noticed a prominent internet dating site... at first I thought it must've been my best friend logging on to his account (he had one) but upon opening the site, the username was still logged in the internet cache... without going into detail, there was no doubt that my wife created it. I didn't immediately assume the worst, but I did sign up to the site myself to check out her profile. Needless to say my heart almost stopped upon seeing it. A few key lines were "my friends say I'd be quite a catch" [what kind of friend says that?? guess I don't know the context] "single" , worse: looking for:
RELATIONSHIP with a male
CASUAL DATING with a male
FRIENDSHIP with a male
I just kinda sat there stunned for a while with stupid questions going through my head like "why?" "I know there's been some problems, but are things really that bad?" "why hasn't she talked to me, why just do this?" Ten minutes later my wife got out of bed (it was about 8am on a saturday) and found me looking at the page... I asked her what it was and what it meant... she said it was nothing... that she was only looking for friends, that I was the only one in her life and she had never met anyone she talked to on this site. I asked her how she could say she was only looking for friends when the text Relationship/Casual Dating was right there in front of us; she said she thought she'd attract more people that way... "maybe, but only men??" no she said she wanted more women friends too. The whole thing stunk to me. I asked her to remove her profile immediately and cease contact with anyone she'd met on there. So she did, and I believe it stayed like that. I do trust her but it's hard after that to trust her 100%, I have checked the internet cache every so often just in case. I rationalised that perhaps I wasn't giving her enough attention and she just wanted some affirmation with men on the internet only.

Last week she asked where she'd saved a nice photo of her on one of our PCs - I told her and didn't think any more about it until about 3 hours later... why did she want that? Facebook... or... that damn internet dating site again??! I was of course hoping for the best, but I checked straight away (I never deleted my profile) and sure enough her profile was back up. This time though she'd set her preference to "Friendship with male or female" I was relieved a little at this, but I still confronted her straight away and asked her why she'd put her profile back when I had asked her not to; she said she was only on there for friends and that her profile reflected this... I agreed, but I said I will only be ok with it if you're 100% honest with me with what goes on in it. She told me she would be.

A day or two later she tells me she's found two new people on there - one girl and one guy. Apparently I'd like the guy and get along with him, he's a chef, and he invited us that night to have dinner at the restaurant where he worked... it was only 15 minutes away so I thought.. ok, I want to meet him and see what he's like, and try to gauge his intentions. We had dinner, but he was working in the kitchen the whole time and we didn't meet him... apparently my wife saw him though and he thinks he saw us. So that was that, things didn't seem too bad.

Two nights ago I ask her if she's met him yet. She told me no (I believe her) but that she would like to meet him and for the friendship to work out. I told her I had no issue with that but I was quite uncomfortable with her spending time alone with him. She asked me if I trusted her, I replied that yes I do, but there are still some memories of that time 3-4 months ago, and also, what if the shoe were on the other foot? What if it were me and some girl you didn't know?? She said it would be ok because she trusts me, I reiterated that I do trust her, but I don't trust HIM; that I don't know of his intentions; that I'm a male and I understand how males think... any male on this site will know what I mean and I think that's why a lot of the time men take exception to their wives making new male friends. She said: "he knows we're married, why would he make any advances?" I said that she shouldn't automatically assume he has good intentions when she's never met him in person, but on an internet dating site! There was no real resolution, I just said I wanted to meet him. I didn't get much sleep that night.

The next morning everything seems ok, she's affectionate, and in the last two weeks we're more active in our sex life than just about any time I can think of, so things are good or at least superficially, but this situation just keeps returning to my concsiousness, like a thorn in my mind. I can't let that on though... play happy Richard!

The next night, which was actually last night, she tells me she is going out to play tennis with her brother tomorrow night (tonight) - I get along well with her brother and asked if I can come along, even though I'm not a really good player... she said no. I asked again... are you sure it's just your brother? If you want me to trust you, you have to be completely honest with me! She said it was just her brother, and she was being honest. She told me later last night that on Friday she is going out with her friends. I don't have an issue with this as she has been planning it for a while, until she says she doesn't expect to be home until 4am so she's just going to sleep at a friend's house that night... "What? We're married! You're meant to be here with me, next to me!! I don't want you to sleep somewhere else... I don't mind you going out but we need to set some ground rules here. I want you to come home!" I don't know whether that was an overreaction or not but she wasn't very happy... she said they were going to split a cab, that she didn't want to drive. I said I would come and pick her up. That was no good either, because then her friends had to wait for her. I said call me 1/2 hour earlier. No, because how would she know half an hour before that they were going to leave? I asked why she was making this so difficult. She didn't answer. She said I was being controlling now and it was pushing her away. I was shocked by this... I had been trying exactly not to do that, to give her space, and thought what I was asking was very reasonable... I asked her how she could think that and re-explained the situation from the third person, that this was bull**** and that normal married couples don't do this to each other. She didn't have a response to that. I made sure we didn't go to bed hating each other and tried to smooth it a bit, but I still didn't get much sleep.

Things were starting to add up in my mind and I was getting very uneasy. This morning I did something I've never done - I checked through her phone. Most of her messages to and from this guy were quite innocent, pleasantries more than anything, but there were two from her that caught my attention like a deer in the headlights... "we're going out for drinks next weekend and you HAVE to come" ok, not toooo bad, but then this one: "I might need a place to crash afterwards" major alarm bells after the context of "staying out" in the conversation the night before. So here I am... I'm so stressed and there's permanent butterflies until I can get a handle on this.

What is going on here? This is a woman that gave me a 1 minute kiss as I walked in the door last night and yet there's this? Could she really blow all we have and have been and will be, away, for a fling with a guy she's never even met??

I have accepted... if she's going to cheat, she's going to cheat... there's probably not much I can do about it if that's the case, but I just can't get my head around it - cheating is a serious issue for anyone and for me it's an issue of respect, honor and dignity. I don't know if I could forgive her for such a blatant kick in the balls if that is what happened.

The thing is, though, she assures me she's legit, and apart from what I've written there's no reason to doubt her.

Am I reading too far in to it?
Am I really being just insecure and controlling?
What would you do? What should I do?

Maybe if anything this is a good opportunity for me to lay all my thoughts out and have people "listen" but I would really appreciate some input because I'm wondering if I'm crazy to think that there is something wrong with this.

[Helen_uk]

I have to say alarm bells were ringing for me too just reading this. Nothing wrong with married couples having individual friends of either sex.. but not if they are consisting of secrets in any way.... and finding them via a dating site is worrying.

The problem you now have is one many of us have faced. How much trust on this do you want to give ? If you start checking up on her ( going through her phone, checking e-mails.. even following her ) you've got to be prepared for the fact you may find things out that you then have to deal with. And once you know something you can't " unknow " it. Also of course if she hasn't been up to no good and she finds out she's going to be very pissed off...It's normal human instinct however to find out if we're being cheated .

The fact that she has suddenly started to ask you to change your appearance is also slightly concerning. Ok.. we all like our partners to look the best they can sometimes.. but at the end of the day you love the person and all they stand for, not just their physical appearance.

Why would a married woman ask a man she's spoken to on a dating site and whome she's never met if she can " stay over " after a night out drinking ? I think that part is totally unreasonable and you'd have to have super human trust to not worry about it.

She sounds very dissatisfied with her life at the moment and it seems she's trying to inject some excitement into it... she's going the wrong way about it and stands to lose her marriage. Do you think she values what she has ? Does she realise what she's risking ? Is she fully aware of what you might do if she went ahead and met this man and something came of it ? Or does she think she'd be forgiven ? In essence is she fully aware of the consequences ?

I don't think you're being alarmist or unreasonable , I do think you and she have a lot more talking to do.

Best wishes.

Helen

[spiderman]

What Helen has said about the trust issues is spot on....long story short about 5 yrs ago I believed my wife was having an internet/msn affair with a man and did the digging following going on the mobile etc...not 100% conclusive proof but ultimately led to total trust breakdown and hence where I am now in the middle of a Divorce...the shambles of it all from my side is that I still dont know 100% if she was having an affair !!!

She made me feel like I was the one in the wrong for snooping...especially the mobile phone...when I know she was getting involved online !

Modern technology has got a lot to answer for in marriage problems and divorce IMHO !

Lee

[Raymond]

I agree with Helen. The signs are definitely there. The idea of herself as a good catch seems to be alive and well. I wonder what happened in Europe. Something seems to have happened to turn her head. It's not really a particular person at the moment just a desire to play the field it seems. I don't know why that would be apart from the fact that the next field looks greener.

If you let it go you are giving her liberty to proceed. If you try and prevent it you are apparently being controlling. Catch 22 really. It is very worrying. It could come from what she watches and reads. Some of these programmes subtlely put over ideas. I'd check it out.

You could be straight and ask her what is wrong as she has been acting a bit strange and not behaving as a wife should.

Raymond

[Ageing Grace]

Richard, I really feel for you. You sound like a lovely guy who doesn't deserve this at all!

No, the business with the dating site and the chef guy is NOT innocent - I mean, her intentions aren't what she says they are. I realise you know this but, naturally enough, want to cling to hopes. Obviously you can't actually stop her doing this so your only course of action is to express your dislike of her choice as clearly as possible.

Which leaves us with the question: what's going on? The Europe trip seems to have kicked it all off, so maybe her adventures left her feeling life was passing her by. You married quite young; it's not impossible that she feels she's missed out on her irresponsible years and is, rather clumsily, testing out her wings a little for now.

You have two possible courses that I can see:

1] You start checking up on her in earnest.
2] You try really hard to figure out the underlying problem, and address it.

Neither is going to be easy; neither is guaranteed success. How you choose to tackle it depends on where you're coming from.

If you do the checking thing, you will feel like a low-rent spy (I know, I've done it). It will further strain your relationship. If - when - you find something, you'll be faced with even more hideous choices. If - when -she catches you, you're going to have the most godawful row about trust :confused:

Your other option involves staying positive about your marriage and your wife; staying in love & pulling out all of your very best communication skills. You'll need to discover what changes you can make in your life together, so that your wife feels sufficiently stretched, excited and involved. Such changes might turn out to be radical. And it might not work anyway.

Finally, there is something you can do about Friday night (I've done this, too!) Walk in the club near closing time, looking your utter best, take her by the hand and dance like it's your first date. It won't resolve anything long term ... but, as a stalling action, I highly recommend it :D

Very best,
AG

[rich84]

Thank you for all your answers, I'm trying to be as open minded as possible given the circumstances.
Helen: I had a feeling she had lost at least some of the excitement in her life too, and she's told me that the trip to Europe that she had changed her view on things - she visited family in Croatia and saw the near poverty they were living in and decided at some point that she didn't want to miss out on anything that life had to offer. I assured her that I didn't want to either and whatever she had in mind, we could do it together; travel, whatever. The way she seems to have manifested the change though is that she just goes out and has too much to drink every so often; she's not an alcoholic or anything like that, and is staunchly against drinking too much usually (she'll question me if I have a 2nd beer!!) but it's still enough to be mildly concerning. Like any woman I've met too she's a lot less in control and feels a lot more sexually active when she's drank even one glass of wine - this was major cause for concern for me with the idea of her staying at another person's house. But I re-read that message to the guy and I'd misinterpreted it the first time due to the rush I was in... she was being facetious and meant the entire group of friends, not just her. It's concerning that she would flirt with a single guy like this, but then I occasionally flirt with women too; I'd never think of taking it any further than that, but I have to think about that. I know women love flirting.

I don't know for sure if she knows what she would be giving up. I've worked my ass off at everything I've done since we've been married and we've been blessed with good fortune as a result, we're not rich but we have a great lifestyle for our age in live in a beautiful area which is highly sought after. She wanted to remain celebate too before we were married (we were both virgins) and for four years before we were married I honored that wish. Little things like that they we can never replicate. She may feel like I'd forgive her, but I don't think I could. I hold honor so highly in our relationship, and if that were to dissappear I don't know how I would cope, how I could continue to live with her and function as a normally married couple. I have reiterated that I trust her, and I've told her I'm uncomfortable with her decision. I can't really do more than that without her thinking I'm trying to control her.

spiderman: Thanks for your comment - I've thought long and hard about this - I think that maybe there is a bit of both concerned, that I have trust issues of my own, but of course they haven't come about for no reason. It still comes back to she met a guy on a dating site, and surely that sets some kind of precedent in the guy's mind? In my opinion, he could justafiably think that if she was on a dating site in the first place because she was bored and wanted a f*ckbuddy or something. But then I think... when I think about these things I'm really selling my wife short here... I'm the only person that she's ever been with and she has been so chaste, how can I immediately expect she's going to just go sleep with someone else?? I'm calling her a tramp every time I insinuate this, aren't I?? This alone must be very damaging to my marriage. I must not do it again.

I have made up my mind - whether I trust her 100% or 90% or 80% she must believe that I trust her 100% and I will simply do the best I can to correct any deficiencies that I believe may be part of my marriage. I have to be a better man than anyone else and I have to believe in my wife, no matter how hard that is.

Grace - your response is pretty much what I had boiled down in my own mind - I need to make a choice here and perhaps as you have said, it can only be one or the other. Will I truly be able to put across that I trust her implicitly when I am also checking up on her, every day, week or month? It is tempting to check her phone when she's not around, but I have to be able to deal with what's on there, and surely I must be giving off some kind of vibe that I'm pissed off or something. That is the biggest thing I'm trying to work on. So far except for one or two messages there is no adequate reason for me to be alarmed, and I'm not sure that I should be alarmed about those two either, because now possibly her brother will be going on friday (her brother and mother especially will probably hate her if she stuffed up our marriage) and that has relieved me immensely, but also made me wonder why I was so against it in the first place. Maybe this whole thing is as innocent as it seems and I'm just a dick for not trusting her? It still bothers me that all these people get invited and yet I don't, but I guess that's a seperate issue. Everyone needs time to grow away from their partner, I guess.

Either way, I've gone for option 2 Grace. I am going to take a good hard look at myself and try my best to fix what I feel to be problems. I'll talk to her a lot more and see what can be done better, we need to do more things together like picnics, etc. We already go on walks, jogs, drives, but there's things that she's said she wants to do and I really need to organise myself a bit better, so that they get done.

Well, she met the guy yesterday, with her friend. I was lucky enough that her friend took her car too and because they wanted to play tennis (her brother bailed) and my wife had to fill up my car with fuel, her friend got to our house 10 minutes earlier than my wife did. This allowed me to question her discreetly about the guy without acting paranoid (I get along well with her friend too). It turns out he's nice enough, they only talked for 2 minutes, and that the friend "likes" him and that my wife is happy about that. But apparently he doesn't want a girlfriend because he's not in this city for very long. If she's going to hang out with this guy at any stage though, I've reiterated that I want to meet him. I've told her I don't mind if she has male friends, as long as I can meet them. She's fine with that. I won't make any "groundrules" at this stage because the idea of me being controlling is still fresh in her mind. I need her at some point to realise that I am supposed to be no. 1 in her life and her no. 1 in mine, and that each other's feelings should be the most important thing.

It's times like this that I wonder "what have I done?" and feel like banging my head against the wall.

[Raymond]

Hopefully things aren't as bad as they seemed but it is still slightly off in my view.

You say you flirt with women sometimes. Does she know this? Might this has affected her? Just a thought.

Raymond

[rich84]

When I said I flirt with other women, it's really nothing - it's more just regular interraction. I don't say or do anything at all that is inappropriate and I would never do anything that might constitute flirting in front of her. It has always been my priority to make her feel secure in this relationship, but it seems that that is not her priority for me.

She is going out tonight, I was going to mention that I still wasn't happy about it, but I remember reading on another forum "give me an inch and I'll take a mile, give me a mile and I probably won't want the inch" and thought that was very appropriate. But now I'm thinking, I gave her a mile before this all started and she's steadily been taking more and more.

There's now another couple things that are bothering me greatly.
1. A message from her phone to him from the last time she was at home on an RDO... "I'm just sunbaking at the moment maybe you should come round for a drink" I don't know how she meant this, but she'd never even met the guy at that stage... WTF?
2. a message from him starting with "good morning princess" ending "if you need somewhere to sleep I'll drag out a fouton" - she said no she was staying with a friend but would keep it in mind. She definitely did not want me to pick her up when I mentioned it last night, although I had been talking about picking her up tomorrow morning from her friend's house and told her this.
3. she has an RDO on monday and has INVITED HIM TO OUR HOUSE to play tennis and watch a movie. I of course will be working at that stage... am I going crazy or is it grossly inappropriate for a married woman to have a single man over alone... does this not put her in a situation of temptation, one that you're meant to avoid at all costs when you're married?? He has agreed too. I bet I know what he thinks of this situation, even though I don't think my wife will do anything, what is a man in that situation meant to think?? If it goes ahead all I will be able to think about on monday is... that asshole is at my house, sitting on my couch, eating my food and having fun with my wife... someone my wife has literally met for TWO MINUTES!!! I don't want the guy even knowing which area we live in let alone coming to my house!! How can she be so naive!?

She's told me his ex cheated on him and he knows what it feels like so wouldn't do it... if that's true then I want to talk to him. Tell him he is now putting a married woman in a situation of temptation, ask him to remember what it felt like for him, and ask him to imagine that I am now in that situation and I'm asking him to consider our marriage, and if you're really in it to be a friend, you'll respect my wishes that you'll not spend time alone in a private place together.

Sadly, I imagine if he's already calling her princess etc he's already forgotten those lessons if indeed there were any.

My only plan at this stage is to say to her: "I don't mind you having male friends, but I'm not comfortable with you being alone with them, and if you must be, I at least want you to tell me that you will be." I wonder if she'll mention monday.

It's amazing that we are taught from such a young age how to find the acute angle in a right angle triangle, and yet we are taught nothing of how to deal with real life situations like this. I am utterly unprepared for this.

[crush]

Hi Rich84 - I have read your thread and do not feel at all comfortable about it. For a start you are a married couple, what is she doing on an internet dating site!!! She obviously has friends so why trawl the internet looking for complete strangers to befriend. After all she has you. To allow someone she has never met into her home and worst still with you knowing is just beyond me, I am sorry but its true.

Your wife is obviously bored, feels she has missed out on something and has no comprehension as to the effects her actions will have on both of you. What if she really falls for this guy, it is a possibility they are texting etc and will obviously meet. How you can stand by and allow this to happen is madness. I really don't mean to be blunt and I know you are trying to allow her to do what she wants but at what cost to you.

This will drive you mad I am sure you will become paranoid which is only to be expected and like others have said once you start snooping you will discover stuff you dont want to know but will have to act on it if you dont it will affect your relationship either way.

I honestly don't know what the answer is for you it really is difficult, you don't want to be seen as controlling but in my view it is more about having respect and honesty which your wife clearly has neither. How would she feel if you were behaving like this, I don't think she would be too impressed.

You need to do a lot of soul searching and if she will talk then you need to do a lot of that to but with honesty. She needs to cut ties with this other guy and of course leave the dating sites as believe it will be the start of the end.

[rich84]

Thanks crush for your bluntness... I probably needed that. I have so many conflicting ideas as to what to it is resulting in me doing absolutely nothing. I will talk to her tonight before dinner about all of this. I need to tell her, in the most firm but non-controlling way I can, that what she is doing is wrong and it needs to stop.

I might try and talk candidly to her mum to see what she thinks... she doesn't have any idea that any of this is going on.

[Helen_uk]

Inviting what amounts to a complete stranger ( i.e someone you've met for a few moments from a dating site ) to your home is not a safe thing to do. You need to tell your wife that this isn't acceptable regardless of how innocent a friendship it is.

Every relationship needs boundaries and it seems your wife is pushing yours and making you feel at the very least uncomfortable , that's not acceptable either.

I've been in a similar situation to yours and I know exactly what you mean about doing nothing...it does seem like the easiest option but it really isn't .

I have to say, I don't think you're being controlling and the fact that your wife does, bothers me. I don't know anyone who would sit back and allow this to happen in their marriage. By calling your actions controlling, in reality she's exercising control over you . " You'll let me do what I want or you're controlling me ". If you " found " a single woman on a dating site and asked her back to the marital home whilst your wife was at work do you think she'd find that harmless ?

Crush is right, it boils down to respect and she's showing no respect for your feelings . Being married and not taking into account your husband's feelings on something as dangerous and possibly life changing as this is like having your cake and eating it !



Helen

[crush]

You are right to try to talk to her she needs to hear reason. Perhaps talking to her family may help but ultimately it is her that you need to be discussing this with. You need to understand why she feels the need to do this.

If she is so unhappy with the marriage then perhaps time apart may give her the answers she is looking for but I agree with others that you cannot and must no sit back and do nothing.

If she is going to cheat she will do it anyway there is nothing you can do, but trying to convince you of her "friendship" with this guy as being innocent is just mad.

I hope you can resolve this but it is not going to be easy

[spiderman]

Im going to get flamed for this but this is my take on 'friendships' with the opposite sex ....

A woman thinks she can have male friends just as friends....errrr no....big majority of men in this situation have the ultimate goal of getting into her knickers !

The majority of blokes will have a woman as a friend with the same goal in mind as above....sorry but in most cases this is the truth !

Lee

[crush]

I totally agree with you Spiderman!!!

[Raymond]

I think you can have above board friends of the opposite sex at work, at church, chance meeting in the street, these type forums, but once you go out with them for entertainment, yes red light, especially someone elses wife.

Raymond

[Helen_uk]

The thing about having friends of the opposite sex is not keeping them in any way a secret . I think that's when the problem starts as it gives off mixed messages to all concerned. I'd also say this man isn't a friend... he's someone Rich's wife has met from an internet dating site .. and that does put a whole different outlook on things...

I can't see a reason why a single man would want to be friends with a married woman he's met on a dating site( or vice versa) unless there is some hidden agenda to it.... Maybe I just have a suspicious mind but it wouldn't sit well with me if my partner did it.

My ex partner did similar things and swore they were " just friends " . They weren't .

Helen

[Jenn]

Unless he's gay, I say NO WAY!

Come on, really!!?? Would she like it if you had a woman "friend" over to her home while she was at work - like this would be ok??? It's not as if this guy was someone she was friends with before you were married or even a mutual friend - she met him on a dating site and she's throwing it in your face.

I would never do this to my husband and he would never put up with it.

I feel for you because I know it's hard to face the reality of this situation, but if you don't set your parameters now, you will live to regret it. And, no, it's not controlling, it's about respect.

[Ageing Grace]

Hi, Rich. I'm going to keep this short because I could probably go on for six pages ... :eek:

You have a beautiful life, with a tennis court & suchlike at home, although you're only 25.

Your wife has recently been to visit relations in Croatia, who are suffering material constraints that she'd probably never even thought about, let alone encountered first-hand. Despite this, they no doubt made her very welcome and surrounded her with love.

They welcomed her into their homes even though she was a total stranger.

This kind of contrast is often hard to handle. It sure as hell makes you question how much wealth is really necessary. And whether social distance has any purpose at all.

Chef guy is a lifetime traveller. He's seen, and understands, many different ways of living.

Right, I'm stopping here. Hope I've cast a slightly different perspective on things?

Have a good weekend - really: enjoy!!

AG x

[Ageing Grace]

I just have to add this, as it's bugging me so much!

The idea that men & women can't be 'just friends' is as absurd as it is insulting to men and women. I have many male friends: single & married; straight & gay. Before you think "well, Grace is OLD", I've been friends with some since our student days.

This isn't meant to reflect your particular situation, Rich, I'm just *SO FED UP* of seeing that statement in these forums!

Best wishes from me and all my male friends :D
AG

[Helen_uk]

I agree AG.. I have many male friends myself. I don't keep them apart from my partner though, I didn't meet them on dating sites and I don't keep them a secret...Therein lies the problem I think.

I value my male friends greatly but I'm always more than happy for my partner to meet and socialise with them, as I am with his friends of both sexes. If I'd met them on a dating site though I don't think he'd be too happy...

My ex partner met quite a few women through an online dating site ,he insisted they were friends but it didn't ring true... He was VERY secretive about his online activities and it culminated with him having an affair with a young woman of 19 .

I see no problem with Rich's wife's desire to make new friends and widen her social circle.... If she keeps Rich in the loop and is happy for him to meet them . I still can't see why a single man would want a friendship with a married woman ( if he knows her husband isn't included in the friendship package ) unless he's hoping for more. To me, a married person being on a dating site implies they are maybe up for more than friendship... and I'm guessing that's what worries Rich ?

Hope things are going ok with you Rich ?

Helen

[rich84]

Thank you again guys, it's hard to believe that's there's so many good people out there who are are willing to help a complete stranger, but I guess in one way or another we all have things in common.

The balance and challenge right now for me is trying to set these boundaries that we all know a marriage needs and should really be unspoken, and yet not trying to seem controlling. I can honestly look at myself from 10 feet away and say I have not seemed controlling. I have bent over backwards to be reasonable. Whatever I'm doing though, it's not working.

I really don't know what's going on anymore. On friday night before she went out I told her: "Something I've been thinking about all week and I need to get it off my chest: I don't mind if you have male friends, I'm not happy at all about you spending alone time with them though, because I feel that a married woman has no place spending time alone in private with a single man, since that can lead to temptation that we're meant to avoid at all costs, but if you feel you absolutely must, please at least tell me you're going to. It would make me feel a lot more comfortable." I thought that was very reasonable of me. She said "ok... don't look so depressed about it!" She was very affectionate and when I was seeing her off everything seemed ok. She went dancing with her friends and really enjoyed herself. She stayed at her girl friend's house that night and I was at least happy about that, but I know the guy was there at least breifly... he however left, stating that he wasn't comfortable around the others... he later on wrote her a message saying "night gorgeous" and yet when I ask her "how can you say he thinks you're just going to be friends, when you met on an internet dating site? are you sure he knows that??" she says "yes" but yet he writes **** like this. I feel like going to his house (I know his address) and breaking every bone in the piece of ****'s body!!! The snake!

We went on a 12k jog along the beach yesterday which was really nice, but she was behaving differently in the afternoon. I still had this cloud over my head because I knew she'd still be seeing him today (monday) and yet she'd said nothing in spite of my asking her to tell me if she was going to see a guy friend by herself. I said to her: "you've been very quiet... are you ok?" "no, we'll talk later"

So we did. She told me she just didn't feel the same way about me as she had. I didn't overreact, I asked why she thought that was. "I don't know." She said she felt like I was being overprotective of her, and she felt like we wanted different things... I asked her what she meant. She said about the male friend thing, she understands my position but she wouldn't feel the same way if it were her, because she trusts me... I told her that I had already said I trusted her, that I was acting like this because she had changed so much in the last couple of months and I was trying my best to deal with it and mainly reiterate boundaries that are really supposed to be unspoken in a marriage. I told her that I didn't trust him at all... that I'd never met him, that I didn't know what his intentions were, and that it isn't right to be spending time alone together at one another's houses. I asked her to think about how it looked to him: "she's a married woman and yet she's inviting me to spend alone time with her... hmmm" I said once more that I know what men think and I know what he'd be thinking... this didn't seem to have any effect on her... she simply said: "I'm not attracted to him, Richard." I said again it's not about her. I asked her to try and understand that this (me and her) is my little family and I'm doing my best to protect it.

She then said there's other things, like the way I cut her off sometimes. I agreed and said I was trying very hard not to and did catch myself a few times lately. She said she didn't know how to feel anymore, that she realised because we got married young she'd missed out on a lot of things, and that she'd always wanted an apartment of her own and to live on her own for a while. I asked her if she knew the meaning of the phrase "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" - that we think some other lifestyle or thing seems so much better than what we have, and yet we don't know what we have until we lose it and that we often spend days, weeks, years pursuing something only to achieve it and realise that we're still not satisfied, or that what we had before was as good or better. I said there's plenty of times that you've pissed me off so badly that I feel like I don't even like you, let alone love you, but the feeling passes and I always know that it will. She didn't really say much after that because she was going to sleep.

I know she's talking about all her single friends... she thinks that that's a great life and that they don't have any worries, etc. In actual fact they don't have anything at all... they're all looking for what my wife and I have and yet she has this delusion that they're absolutely contented.

I feel like my life is turning into a shambles right now. Sorry my posts are so long.

EDIT: I asked her if she would attend marriage counselling with me and she said she would. I said it doesn't mean our marriage is failing... it just sometimes helps to get a third person's perspective. She said: "but it's not perfect though..." I asked her to give me an example of a marriage that was perfect. Because of course there aren't any. She said "I used to think you were perfect." me: "I'm far from perfect and if anything I'm a better man now than I ever was, but I'll never be even close, but I'll always try."

EDIT 2: She just wrote me a lovely message saying how much she loves me and she's really glad we had the talk.

[rich84]

So it's lunchtime now and I just called her and she's out with this guy... apparently going to have a coffee and just get to know each other. She said: "guess what, he has a day off too!!" I felt like saying yes I know the piece of **** has a day off I've known for nearly a week now!! But I'm seeing the negative here again... what is positive is that she told me the truth. I believe she was with him at that stage but it didn't sound loud like a public place.

She offered that if I wanted to meet him maybe he could come over for tea. I am actually quite pissed off about this because frankly I don't want him anywhere near my house or my family.

Anyway, I need to meet him. I need him to realise that there is no room for him in this marriage and tonight I will have a chance to get a feel for what he's like... I'll keep a close eye on him and see what he's doing. If he so much as no good I'll tell my wife I want her to cut contact.

Maybe I'm being completely foolish for even allowing this to take place... I don't know... it's like Raymond said, a catch 22, I can't stop her from seeing him because at stage she insists it's innocent, and I don't want her to see him because I'm scared it could or already has developed into something more.

I'm completely torn... there's part of me that says you need to trust her 100% and part of me that says there's something badly wrong here.

I'll report back here tomorrow.

[Ageing Grace]

For what it's worth, Rich, I think you're doing all the right things. Yours is such a difficult, complex situation. I hope your meeting goes better than expected - and that you get some insights/explanations.

Very best wishes,
AG

[rich84]

Thank you Grace, I appreciate that.

Well... I'm still in a state of confusion, but am feeling 90% more relieved than yesterday.

She did meet up with him but when I got home he wasn't there (I was almost expecting him to be) and my wife came out and greeted me as soon as she heard my car roll up; she was happy to see me and I was happy to see her (and that he wasn't there). She reiterated that I didn't have to worry about anything and that this guy was absolutely harmless, and that during their coffee chat he could barely look her in the eye let alone hold a decent conversation. So perhaps he is a bit of a sms cassanova only and I have completely misread the situation. Still... what if he hadn't been? I've still got that to worry about and told myself I defeintely wasn't out of the woods yet.

The guy found a reason not to come to dinner... I think he is scared to meet me; I asked my wife if he was scared to meet me, and she told me he was a bit shocked when she said I had invited him to dinner and got a bit sheepish. I know if I were in his situation I would... thinking that this woman wanted to have an affair and then her husband invites you over for tea!! Maybe he never did think that, but from his little flirtations I think he did.

She is meeting up with another friend off of the dating site on friday night but this one is a girl, so I'm not concerned about that.

[Raymond]

He must be really confused with the mixed signals he is getting. I think your wife is being a bit naive.

Raymond

[rich84]

Well, it has been just under a month since my last post. So much water has passed under the bridge in this time that it has made my head spin. Allow me to try to work in out in date order:

My wife has not seen this "guy 1" for a while as far as I know. This might be good in itself, but in the meantime, she has started talking to quite a few other guys... mainly just two or three. She has met people while out clubbing and messages them, but things did seem at least acceptable in our relationship until just after Christmas, then things happened quickly.

She stayed another night at her friend's house and was talking to these guys on the phone at past 11:00pm... I still thought I could be misreading the whole situation at this point, so I kept my wits about me and played reasonably cool. On the thursday after Christmas things really started to hit the fan... I had another talk to her about why she was messaging men... that it seemed to me that she was hiding everything from me and that it was making me suspicious of her... she said it was ok, these guys were just friends; she said she felt she wasn't in love with me in a romantic way any more (which broke me... I didn't cry but god damn that hurt). I told her what I'd read from Raymond time and time again - actions create feelings - you act like you love them and it goes from there... I know, I've done this myself because at times in our relationship I have not felt attracted to her and with time my feelings came back, but it took Raymond's posts to actually realise what had happened. She said she hadn't had a single life and wanted to know what was out there... I asked her what she thought she was missing out on, because certainly everything I hear from single people is that they want what we have!?! She said she didn't know. Nothing was really resolved.

Since she had told me that, the next day she acted very distant to me. I assumed this would pass and gave her some space, but it made it awkward because we were going on a little camping trip for a couple of days, and the destination was nearly 3 hours away by car. Not much was said in those 3 hours, but it kept going... I tried my best to make conversation... talk about our future, everything; it didn't make a difference. For all 4 days camping she was like that, and has been ever since, with the exception of us having talks.

I spoke to her brother briefly the day before, he's a good guy, just told him the basics... that W said she had missed out on a lot and didn't know what she wanted. We worked out we would go shopping the next day. That night, the night before new year's eve, we had another talk... it was basically the same thing reiterated... she was worried about what she missed out on, we got married too young, she wasn't romantically attached to me and she didn't feel attracted to me. I took it reasonalby well, just tried to talk calmly to her. She didn't know what she wanted. I could not sleep... all night... for the first time in years, so at 4am I just jumped in my car and drove... I am a driving enthusiast and driving really clears my mind, so I did it, drove a good 420km (4 hours). Apparently she took this as an act of war instead of what it really was (I've heard guys do this stuff all the time?) and wrote a message to her friend saying her situation had gotten really bad.

She had a nail appointment at 9am (I was home at exactly 9:00 and probably missed her by no more than 5 min) but she didn't come home after that. I wrote her a message saying I would be going shopping with her bro and didn't know when I'd be back, she wrote one to the same effect; I went shopping with her brother and told him everything. All the gruesome details. He was pretty disgusted by it, and agreed that she had no right to be acting like this, and that it was improper. Basically mirrored what you guys have said. I then told her mum the whole story and asked for her advice. She said that my wife was a naive girl and always had been... she was too trusting of everyone and that she thought that maybe the the fact that she has a defective gene (which creates an overproduction of insulin, leading to an increase in the opposing sexual hormone) I told her I did not know what to think... she said she would talk to my wife.

We met up at our house for new years eve with a few friends for drinks and to watch the fireworks on Syd harbour on TV. I got pretty smashed which is unusual for me but I thought what the hell, huh? I made it to the countdown and 12:00am at least ;)

So I was not really aware of what my wife was doing... she wrote messages to a few guys and it almost shames me to write them on here... this is my wife folks:
"Yeah, Mxxxxx, the hot one ;) I've got a lot of energy right now! ;) "
unknown no: "Will you send me a pic of your dick? It might not be big enough for me"
guy 2: ".I think you are really hot X..me and hub are prac over... am I going to regret this? I've only ever been with 1 guy!" <--- the recipient of that message is one of the people who she said was just a friend.

I literally beat the **** out of the carpet until my fists were sore. WHY WHY WHY!! The next day I was ropeable. I didn't tell her I knew about the messages but let me say this: I only have ever sworn in front of my wife accidentally... we're talking maybe 5 times tops has she ever heard me say the F word. This time I said it, while talking to her, about 20 times. I told her if she wanted to be like this she could get f'ed, she didn't know how much pain she was causing to the one person who said he'd love her for the rest of his life, and that what she was doing had caused possibly irreperable damage to my image of her. I told her she was acting like a bitch and that it was f*cked up... I may never look at her the same again. How can I? I know swearing at her is counter to what I knew. I wasn't yelling, but it was a very very emotional outburst. She said she didn't know why she was acting this way, maybe because she wanted me to hate her. I told her she was doing a good job, but I still love her in spite of everything and I want to work on this, even though most men would have told her to f*** off and I was inches from doing the same.

She asked if I would drop her off to talk to her mum about it. I said no problem, and did. Later on I talked to her mum, who told me a few things "from the other side of the story" - things that I had done to hurt her feelings or question my love for her... they were true... I admitted that it was wrong of me, and that it would give me a chance to work on something for her. I'm talking things like not picking up on hints sometimes, but the main one is that for a while my best mate came over nearly every weekend... something I am now greatly ashamed of, because she had told me before that it bothered her, it made her feel like I was choosing him over her. I told my wife when I talked to her later that I was so sorry for this (I have already stopped it from happening for several months).

Another couple days go by... she's still messaging this guy... we go out with her friend... I dress my absolute best and looked great, but she's on her phone the whole time... she wrote another message to this guy... he had asked in one message: "so are you going to get back with your hub?" she replied "I don't know :S I really don't know. I mean I'd love to just leave but it's complicated..." On the way home I talked to her again... can we please talk?? I know what's going on M. You're not feeling attracted to me because now you have another guy who's fulfilling your emotional needs and you think he's attractive" "What are you saying, that I've slept with someone else?" "No, but you're probably thinking about it. I'm right, aren't I." "No, there's no other man." "There IS, M, god dammit stop lying to me!! I know!! Tell me the d*mn truth!!! God dammit am I that BAD? Is what we have THAT BAD? I deserve the truth M!!!"

"OK, I'll tell you the truth. [big pause]. I thought when we met there were some little things that I wanted to change about you and once they were changed I would love you more, but that change hasn't happened and I am becoming increasingly aware of it... little things like your teeth, the way you don't use soap when you shower [I do though!!!] and I don't know, just your dress sense etc. I said, "well, I'm working on those things [I work out probably 6 hours a week now, and run for a good 3hrs with or without her] now and you know that." She said yes, only now. I said maybe it needed an event like this to really take a look at myself and see things that needed to change, and really change them. We went home, talked more... she said: "I'm really sorry for all of this... I just don't know how I'm feeling, I don't understand it."

The next morning I said to her over breakfast... "I think I have a good idea of what's going on here. You weren't attracted to guy 1, and said I had nothing to worry about... but what you were really saying is: "You don't need to worry because he's not attractive." - what I was worried about is that what if you do find someone attractive on this internet dating site, and you inevitably will, what then? I continued: I think I know what happened then... some guy talked to you and you became attracted to him, hence the reason why you're now not as attracted to me now (like I said in an earlier post, before all this crap last month we had a terriffic sex life, no way was she not attracted)... "Come on M, honestly, how close am I?"

"Close enough, I guess." Good, for once, the truth. I told her if any one part of her wants our marriage to work, she has to break it off with this guy straight away, permanently, forever. She has to also end the internet dating thing straight away. I told her it was her decision, but that our relationship would never work so long as she was in contact with this other guy. I told her that don't think we're not going to both suffer if this continues... this guy might be OK for a bit, but you don't know him!! Inevitably, everyone involved will suffer, except him. He'll get off scot free. I told her that relationships based on lies and dishonestly will never survive, and it is clear in all this that the fact he is allowing this happen is already a bad sign of his character. I told her the choice was hers... I'm going to go work out with my brother.

I told my little bro the whole thing... he pledged his complete support to me. It was almost an awakening... hey, I thought, I'm going to be ok whatever happens here, but deep down I really do want it to work out. I looked at our photos... so many memories... we can never get them back if we give up. When I got home she told me that there was no longer any other guy. I said: "you cut contact?" "no, he said that he wouldn't chase a married woman, and that they would only be friends" I said "At least he has some character, but I want all contact cut... we need that." She said nothing. We had a big heart to heart about other things too, things that she was feeling... I thought we might've made some headway.

She was back to being cold again this morning... she tried to go out somewhere but the car got a flat tyre on the way out the driveway!! How's that for an omen? She made a valiant effort to change the tyre but couldn't get the wheel nuts undone!!

Well, just saw she had messaged this guy again, so I guess it's time to go have a talk (again). I'm going to tell her that I love her and cherish her, but I'm not going to hold her back and that if she's going, close the door on her way out, because I can't live a lie like this... I'm at my wit's end.

Wish me luck, friends.

[Raymond]

I think you are handling it very well Rich. Don't know how you could have handled it better. I think you have pointed out the seriousness of her behaviour. It cannot be a bit of fun to her now. If anything happens it will happen in the cold light of day as she knows now that you know. There is never any excuse for adultery.

I hope the battle is won in her mind and that she will fulfil her marriage vows and save the marriage. You are right about some single people. A lot of the ones I speak to want what I've got. They say what you don't value you lose. I hope she is able to mature and get over this phase.

Raymond

[georgie]

i cant think of a diplomatic way of putting this, her behaviour is abominable. nobody should have to put up with that. sorry i cant offer anything more constructive, but i've had a couple of drinks with friends and i'm struggling with anything over one syallable. listen to ur instincts u know whats going on and its not acceptable.

[Helen_uk]

Talking is great Rich... but actions speak louder. If your marriage is going to survive she HAS to stop looking for / talking to guys on the net. Despite her earlier protestations of innocence , the texts she's sending are not friendly , they are sexual. She's put her writing firmly on the wall !

Georgie is right , it's not an acceptable way to behave and she needs to decide what she wants.

I know how you felt reading those texts... I went through the exact same thing, it's like a punch in the gut.I had it thrown at me that it was my fault for spying....

I wish you luck.

Helen

[Ageing Grace]

Rich, your story's heartbreaking. I'm so sorry your holiday was this painful for you. I'm relieved to hear you have good friends & family around you, you need all the support you can get.

Please don't blame yourself for what's happening to your wife. You haven't made any but the most usual mistakes and, as you say, you've fixed those.

It's interesting what you said about the defective gene/insulin/hormones. Hormone changes can cause a VAST difference in personality, behaviour - and sexuality. It's actually more common than people realise (especially in women) for hormones to go haywire. Usually for a few weeks but, if your wife has an inbuilt condition that alters her hormone balances, the effects could be longer-lasting. This won't be much help to you (if at all) unless she agrees to see an endocrinologist I'm afraid. However, it might help you to understand that her behaviour may have nothing to do with feelings about her marriage - and be, essentially, a medical condition.

One other thought - had she seemed down, maybe a bit lethargic, for some time before this kicked off, or before her trip overseas? If so, she may be bipolar (entering a manic phase).

I don't know if I should have let these ideas pass? Perhaps you could find more out from her Mum.

Wishing you the best - and patience! Sounds like you're going to need it :(

AG x

[rich84]

Thanks for all your support guys.

Well I had the talk with her... I basically said that I know everything she's done and that I have known the whole time... I said she'd given me enough reason to not trust her and that's why I found out for myself... that she really was messing with the wrong guy when she was keeping most of her communications to technological means.

I told her I knew all about her disgusting little messages and I had been trying to weigh up my options... do I kick you out or do I try to work this out? Obviously I've chosen the latter because I really think this can be worked out and it's not too late, and that we have a lot worth saving. She asked which text messages, and I said "don't play stupid, I read all of them, M" she persisted in this, so I rattled off all of them as I remembered them... she looked genuinely pretty shocked but none more so than the one about "show me a pic of your dick"... she said that it was disgusting and swore black and blue that it wasn't her, and that her best friend had had the phone that afternoon. This may have been plausible, as the there was no name attached to the number dialled, and she hadn't even read the message because of that when she went through her phone and deleted all the messages.

I told her that she had destroyed my trust and image of her, that I know she thinks I can't trust her and that I had more than ample reason not to, that this was the reason she had to sever all ties with this guy and the online dating thing had to stop, and that our marriage would be stuck in this rut until something bad happened, or if she stopped. So far she had shown me that she was completely and utterly not serious about making anything work or rebuilding my trust. She should be kissing my ass at this point. She said she doesn't know what she wants and she's so confused... I sympathised with that, but told her she was approaching this situation in the complete wrong way, and that going and getting involved with another man was absolutely deplorable. I said I don't care if you don't love me right now, you have loved me... you were attacted to me, we had a great sex life that was on the improve when all this sh!t started. I admit I have made mistakes and I have promised black and blue to never make you wonder if I appreciate what I had ever again, but you are taking everything I've given you, my heart, my mind, my body, my promise to love you forever, and throwing it away.

She said the seeds for this may have been sewn when we stopped attending the church we were attending. I agreed with that and made a commitment right there and then to go and keep going (I hadn't been very religious and didn't agree with some of the church's ideas, but didn't realise that it's better to agree with something than to not bother at all - and that some religious structure in my life's life was in fact beneficial). She said the members of the church had told her not to marry me for this reason but that she'd gone ahead anyway and hadn't forgiven herself for this. I told her there had been a lot of reasons for me to end it, but I hadn't for the same reason she hadn't. We weren't blinded by love, we weren't infatuated... we'd been together for 4 years when we got married and had already endured a lot of ups and downs. We did it because we loved each other and that was enough to keep us going.

She said she was re-evaluating what she needed in a partner... "maybe you are rising to this occasion and will change, but what happens when you go through the same problem with me?" I told her that I had already been through it, like I had told her already. Yet she had changed nothing about herself and I was still here with her... I had dealt with it much more maturely (didn't say that) and I'd worked out that in spite of her numerous flaws I had made a promise and that I realised the grass is seldom greener - I may very well find someone I'd be happier with, but how long would that take? Would it ever happen? I had to look at what I had already and if I could learn to appreciate it, I could learn to love her more completely. Since then I have loved her completely. I still do, which is the only reason that I'm being strong about this.

In the end I just said: "I love you with every bone in my body and cherish you, but I'm not going to hold you back... if you want to leave, you know where the door is. I'll even hold it open for you." She was quite shocked by that. "Who said anything about leaving??!?" "You did, about 30 minutes ago." "I meant... I just needed to get away" "OK, I understand. Then do it. Where would you stay?" "I don't know". I casually threw in the possibility of me leaving instead, but didn't really finish what I was saying.

She's going to go for a night stay on the Yorke Peninsula about 250km from here with her mum. I hope she thinks things over. I know her mum is on the side of the marriage, so that's a good thing.

Grace: The defective gene thing apparently affects about 20% of the population but is rarely diagnosed... I know a bit about it because I have it as well. Generally it's similar to diabetes in that the thyroid does not regulate insulin correctly - but in contrast to diabetes, it produces way too much, and a second symptom is that the body reacts to the excessive insulin by creating massive amounts of the opposite hormone (ie testoserone in women and estrogen in men)... of course if it is left unchecked it can have massive side effects in both sexes... women can never lose weight, have massively high sex drives, get bodily hair where is only supposed to be vellous hair and mood disorders. For men it's usually uncontrollable weight, low sex drive, inability to "bulk up" and generally bad temperament. When I was diagnosed I was not fat, but my estrogen was at 90 when it should've been about 30, and my SHBG (sex hormone binding globulins) was at 150 when it should've been 30 too. I couldn't bulk up as I wanted to either. Treatment involves taking a cabbage extract to break up the excess insulin, then a radical diet change to involve as little sugar and carborhydrate as possible, and mainly protein - so no wheat products whatsoever, no chocolate, no lollies... if I eat any of that stuff now I've been off it for several years, I literally wake up with a hangover. My wife is the same.

[Ageing Grace]

Thanks for explaining, Rich.

You sound very angry - justifiably, of course. But I hope it doesn't colour any chances you have of sorting things out. It sounds like a very good idea for M to go away with her Mum for a few days. I do hope it helps you both.

Not trying to flog a dead horse, but ...
testoserone in women ... massively high sex drives ... and mood disorders
... are you sure this isn't related?

I had an androgen blip a while back - I didn't get fat, but built muscle really fast in the gym - and became rather - umm, predatory :o (I was single at the time & quite enjoyed it, but that's another story!) I didn't grow a beard or anything. Well, not until middle age :p

Love & good wishes,
The Bearded Old Woman ;)

[rich84]

I'm not sure, no. Her mum has the problem too and she offered that it may be clouding her judgement and we don't know how far reaching its effects may be. We have both seen endocrinologists and my wife is on constant medication to counter the effects, including progesterone to try to lift her mood, as her body is producing zero progesterone and as you probably know, that is the "happy" hormone in women. When this all started 4 months ago she was taking progesterone in tablet form which seemed to work better than the troches she is taking now. Diet and exercise are enough to keep me well, especially now my alcohol consumption is about 1/4 of what it used to be (I was never a heavy drinker, maybe had 1 beer per night, now it's maybe 1-2 beers per week). I never considered bipolar, but the way she's acting it actually makes sense. I'll read a bit on it.

I wasn't angry the way I was talking, I was quite calm, firm and assertive. I made my views and feelings as clear as possible... it's kinda hard to transfer emotion through a forum though isn't it?

She's called me up twice this morning about little things... I don't know if I really want to talk to her right now though.

[Ageing Grace]

It's tough, Rich. I hate the thought of what you're going through.

When you started your thread, I put together your wife's sense of disillusionment and her trip to Europe, and thought she may well be suffering with ideological problems. To have so much so young, and then to visit people living very different lives, could certainly explain feelings of discontent. If she'd come over "Is this all there is?" and/or feeling constrained by your life together - I think that would have been an understandable reaction to her particular circumstances.

But that isn't what's happened. She's acting plain weird. Even if she'd felt sexually and socially constrained with you - and there's nothing to show that she did - it'd be unlikely to lead her directly into giving strangers the big fat come-on. And it seems to have happened very quickly. Or have I missed something important?

She needs the talk with her Mum, I think. Possibly she does need to do VSO or something: that would be a hard one to work out between you, but at least you'd know what you were dealing with.

I'd hate to think of you two splitting up, if the current crisis really is something that could be readily fixed by a change in medication.

All the best.

[rich84]

Thanks for your support.

I hate what I'm going through too, but it is what it is. I will be better off for this, whatever the outcome. If she chooses to stay, I will keep the promises I have made. I have made them for me too, to make me a better man. A better husband. A better lover.

If not, then I'll find someone else who will give me the love I want and deserve, and I'll do so with the knowledge that I did absolutely everything in my power to save my marriage.

What I won't do is hang around for years like some love sick fool. I don't have that time to waste. If she moves out, I will give her 6 weeks. If she has not come to her senses I will have to serve her the papers. I love her and I want this to work out, and I don't want to paint it any other way on here, but if she doesn't come to her senses in that time, when will she? How will I know what she's done in that time? How could I ever bring myself to trust that she hasn't been with other people, after all the sh!tty messages she's sent? If she told me she'd had an affair right now I'd shut this whole thing down straight away. I know some people can forgive this, but as I've said in earlier posts, her chastity was one of the bedrocks of my attraction for her. Once that's gone, what else is there? As it is, that is only hanging on by a thread. Sure, she is physically attractive, but she has done has made me question her deeply... what kind of person am I really married to? Someone who is willing to give up so easily? How is this going to go in the future, if she decides that there is something else she doesn't like about me? Can I expect her to grow from this as I have, or will she always be looking for an out? Mostly, how can I love her completely, knowing this is what she is capable of?

She has a number for a counsellor... I'll make sure we call it when she gets back from her trip. I think I really need to talk to someone to get answers to those questions.

[georgie]

I think going to a counsellor together would be a great idea. You are going through hell and you need all the help you can get to find your way out of it.
I'm unfamiliar with the medical condition you refer to, I hope if this is the source of the behaviour that it can be addressed quickly. This is to painful to be withstood for long, without it doing permanent damage to your perception of her.
Her responses to you did not ring true at all, it seems she's playing the manipulators game i.e. if I've been caught doing something wrong it must be your fault e.g. "its because of the church".. believe me I've lived with such a manipulator and every time you 'fix' one of these flaws, they'll imediately find another, they never run out of excuses for their own shoddy behaviour. I'm sorry, I'm finding it hard to give input that has not been coloured by my own recent experience, sorry if it's all negative.
I think you are handling the situation remarkably well are that you are incredibley tolerant. I hope it all works out for you one way or another.

[Raymond]

Chastity is not only the bedrock of your marriage Rich it is the bedrock of all marriages. If she was getting this from the church go back with her until it becomes a part of her.

Raymond

[rich84]

I haven't heard from her since 9:00am yesterday - she's on that little stay with her mum... it's probably one of the longest times we've ever gone without speaking. Even when she was in Europe she called once or twice a day.

I want your opinion on something... do you think that I should move out, to give her the space she seems to need? Then cut contact as much as possible until she decides what she wants to do? Hopefully she would miss me and come to her senses, is my reasoning, and it show her more that I care about her feelings/well being.

I say that because I'd prefer to know she's safe at our house, rather than somewhere else.

I don't know what to do... it hurts so much to be in the same house and not be able to hold her or kiss her or even just have a normal conversation whenever I want to. I'm staying strong, but it's really sinking in now.

[Raymond]

I'm not so sure it is wise to move out. Others may differ. Sometimes giving this space thing turns out to be an opportunity to do the wrong things. I think you just have to go through it. You being there will remind her that she is supposed to be married.

Raymond

[rich84]

Thanks for your advice Raymond. I'll mull that over before I make any decisions.

[rich84]

I spoke to her last night about things. She said the changes that I have made haven't gone un-noticed, I just want her to realise that I'm doing this for me and not for her or the relationship and not just to win her back, although ideally that is what I want. I've told her I'm changing, whatever happens. My current regime is working well and I feel great apart from late nights.. I was never what anyone would call overweight and was quite trim, but getting quite a nice sculpting as well now, so it's good.

I find writing things up here helps me to organise my thoughts, so forgive me if I continue to ramble.

I told her I knew that I effectively blamed her for much of this situation and understood why I had done this, but perhaps it was not making things any better. I would not judge her from now on. I also said that I would stop checking up on her, and instead love her and try to let my trust for her develop again. I'm really questioning whether this was right of me, as she has not really done anything to make me want to trust her... she's still on her phone a lot and she's still on that internet dating thing... it makes these stupid noises all the time and I heard one when I was talking to her on the phone about 10 minutes ago. I have told her and told her and told her what a bad idea this internet dating site is. I have told her that our marriage cannot continue at all until she gets off this site and yet she will not stop it.

She said that there was a lot she wanted to do and didn't feel like she could do them while she was married:
-she wants to learn to surf
-she wants to go out with friends by herself
-she wants to go on road trips with friends by herself
-she wants to date other people
-she wants to do things like help out at homeless shelters

I asked, with the exception of dating other people, why she couldn't do those things while we're married. She replied that it was because I would always be wanting to be there with her. I said that may be true, because I love her after all, but I love her enough to let her go and do these things herself if she wants. She said she was just tired of our marriage and wanted to try new things.

The dating other people thing depressed me. I tried my best not to show it, but I kinda feel like my heart is shrivelling up with every blow it takes. I guess that's a natural reaction. I feel at least a little bit stressed almost 100% of the time, but get some bouts of real anxiety... mainly when I think about things that we've done together, etc.

I said I had thought about leaving her quite a bit now, but I loved her and I really thought this could work out, so I was staying for now, but at the end of the conversation I said it felt like a lie sleeping in our marriage bed and I was going to go sleep in the spare room. I grabbed my pillow and was just going but she grabbed the other side of the pillow and asked me to just lie down and sleep. I said I didn't feel married to her and that it had been more than two weeks since I had last felt close to her. She asked if I was talking about intimacy. I said yes, but not just the sexual side... I meant everything... nice conversations, kisses and hugs just because she loved me and wanted to hold me. It was all gone.

She cuddled up with me at that stage... I really can't remember when the last time she did that was, at least a week before christmas, actually maybe 2 weeks before. She asked if that made me feel uncomfortable... I said she knew I loved it, but I only wanted her there if that's where she wanted to be.

She stayed, and we said nothing else.

[spiderman]

Why would she want to date other people if she was happy ? Stopping this and not wanting to to this is fundamental to wanting the marriage to work surely?

[Raymond]

I don't think I have ever come across a wife as crazy and mixed up as yours on here Rich. Putting helping the homeless in with it as well as dating others is really confusing. It seems she does not understand what marriage is and seems to hold it in very light esteem. She could end up just an adulterer the way she is going. What would her church people say about that?

Is this a major change in her Rich? If so where did it come from? The internet? There are big temptations out there which can actually lead to spiritual poverty. They offer everything but leave you in poverty. I still think the best bet may to encourage her back to that church provided they are on the ball.

Raymond