What is the right thing to do for my wife right now?

[confused555]

I have been reading the theory and principles behind “Love Must Be Tough” by James Dobson. The principles seem appropriate for our situation. She feels hurt by me for the years of control, lack of appreciation, and lack of support. I am taking the steps to change. She has acknowledged that she sees the changes yet says she does not feel them. She has mentioned moving out several times and I have said I am not going to stop you, but have also begged her to give it time before she goes. She says she wants to move into an apartment, but the ones she found all had year leases, and she wanted something shorter. I have begged her not to on two occasions.

We tried marriage counseling. We had two meetings with our pastor, and after the second one she felt like her feelings were not being taken into an account and that the years of hurt and pain can’t just go away. We meet with a different marriage / grief counselor last Monday and when she asked the counselor what do with all the feelings she was having towards me the counselor asked her to write them down. My wife did not see the benefit in that and right after we left the counseling session she exploded on me. She has since said she is not ready for marriage counseling, and she needs to focus on herself, and she just wants to be happy. She does have an appointment next Monday for an individual grief counselor. She says she loves me, but is not in love with me. However, her actions are not all negative. Sometimes she says she wants to work on the relationship. Her feelings can change 3 times in one hour. She started texting this guy a lot and I confronted her and she admitted to it being inappropriate, but only the start of an emotional affair. She said it was wrong and she would stop. According the “Love Must Be Tough” principals (very simplified) I should tell her she is free to go and open the cage for her.

However I don’t think it applies to our relationship. Her dad died in July after a year long battle with lung cancer. The year long ordeal took its toll on my wife. She was an emotional wreck for a year. When he died her grief went through the roof. I know everyone grieves differently, but for her this was a major loss. Also on her plate 2 weeks after her dad died she found out her mother has terminal cancer and has 2 years to live. The breakdown in our relationship occurred 1 month ago shortly after her mom ended up in the hospital from side effects of chemo, and seeing her mom for the first time without any hair. She has not had any grief counseling. This next Monday will be her first appointment. I have not been a good husband for the last 14 years all and my recent attempts to change and help out more have been meet with resentment and anger. I know this is normal, and there is no timeline to be followed.

She asked for space the other day, and rather than her move out and really disrupt the children’s (ages 4 and 8) lives I suggested I move out for a while. I am staying in a hotel for now. I have been there for 3 nights. I am honoring her request for space, and on the first night she called and we talked for about 1 hour. Since then she has not contacted me in any way. I want to text her and tell her I love her, but I don’t think she wants that right now. I think she is suffering a lot of guilt for the way she is treating me. She wrote me a not and put it in my suitcase I packed for the hotel. It said “I truly do love you with all my heart! I’m sorry for the pain I’ve caused you. I hope you can forgive me. Know that wherever you are I’m thinking about you J Love you, “

Her family has called me and asked about her because she has ignored their calls and has not confided our relationship problems or how sad she is about her dad and mom to them. She used to confide every detail of her life with her sister and mother. Now they are asking me what is going on. Early in this her sister told her she could not believe she was going to give up on our marriage. Her sister encouraged her to work on our marriage. After that conversation my wife said she was tired of her family controlling her also. She has abandoned all her old friends she says that her friends are trying are trying to control her and only want from her. She is tired of giving to all of them. She has not confided her feelings about our relationship to her family or old friends. She has started a new friendship with a lady 30 years older than her. They have only been friends for about 3 months (right after her dad died and her mom was diagnosed) my wife says this lady is like a mother to her, and the lady says she is like the daughter she never had. This lady has given her a job at a business she owns. My wife was a stay at home mom until 1 month ago. This lady has taken my wife out and bought her clothes. They are planning a trip to Jamaica together. She spends 4 to 5 nights a week with her. She also works with her so they are together all the time.

So with all that should I follow the tough love guidelines and set her free, or is this not the time for tough love? Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

[jools]

The tone of your thread is very "controlled" and lacking in things like how much you "love" your wife --- did you use that word? The whole thing just feels cold and emotionless. Just an observation.
Jools

[confused555]

I do love my wife with all my heart. I am saddened by her actions, but it would be very easy to know what to do if I did not have the strong feelings for her.

[JWD]

Hi confused, so sorry that you find yourself here.

Well, obviously your wife is very depressed what with her dad's death and her mums illness. She sound like she doesn't know where to turn to next. It seems that she is taking it all out on you. You say that you haven't been a good husband for years but its very easy to start blaming ourselves when a marriage breaks down.

I think you are doing everything you can to help the situation and although it may not be right, I think in your shoes I would be doing the exact same so maybe it's just a waiting game :-( . Maybe you can go for grief counselling on your own to maybe get some pointers on how to help her deal with her loss?

I don't know the answers but I feel that the note she left for you is very positive.

You could maybe tell her that you want to respect her wishes and give her space and time but that you're frightened she may see it as you not caring. Maybe just let her know that you are scared to do the wrong thing and you don't want her to confuse this with not trying.

I really hope you can work on this.

[Raymond]

She sounds like a woman who is fighting for her life and beyond the machinations of the book you are reading. (I thought that title was about being tough with children). She is desperatley looking for healing. In a way it is good that she found this woman (so long as it is above board). Maybe she will heal to such an extent that she can look at things in a more reasoned manner.

She may not be obeying the rules but you don't when you are desperate. She sounds a good woman and a woman with a conscience. You can show your love by encouraging her in her healing and whatever it takes to get there. I don't think she will desert you long term. I don't think so much that it is getting away from you. I think she needs something that will help her at this time and husbands do not have all the answers.

I would bide your time and choose your words carefully. Timing will be everything in this scenario. I think you should move back into the home though. You can still step back and encourage her from there I would have thought.

Raymond

[Jazz204]

I can relate strongly to both sides of this relationship. I too lost a parent, fell into grief mode and lost the plot. I will tell you clearly and simply, from both reading your letter and knowing what she is going through, what you should do.
1. Be there for her, even though she will spurn you.
2. Be aware that she is vulnerable as far as having an affair is concerned. She will think the other man is giving her the emotional support you are not but ultimately she is wrong. You will be able to give her far more of what is required than anyone else can.
3. Learn what women require. Read books. Men are from Mars, John Gray. The Power of Now, Eckhardt Tolle. Learn how you have lived your life through your ego all your life and how in order to have a rich replationship, you need to learn a lot of things. Start now.
4. You can give her space and also live with her. Learn to listen to her, hear her, ask questions, be still. Just love her. It will be worth it.
5. Dont allow yourself to be pulled along by her black way of thinking. Be yourself strongly but kindly.

So there we have it. Move back in with her, read books, get counselling yourself, be strong and consistent with your wife, by strong I mean solid, always the same, loving always, regardless of anything. Learn how to love more. Help around the house quietly, make sure she knows you are on to her as far as other men and texting etc is concerned. You, the father of her children, are far more important than any stranger or acquaintance who has their own set of problems.
What do you think of that? As well as time, your wife will need help to sort out why her grief is so profound - the older woman may help there. Lots to think about, for your childrens sake as well as yours and your wifes, start the action now. Today.

[Raymond]

Thats good advice Jazz. The right wisdom for the right circumstance.

Raymond

[confused555]

Thanks for all your feedback.

JWD,
She is blaming me and I have taking a big load of it on my shoulders. Our relationship has been one where I made all the decisions. She feels like she sacrificed her whole life to make me happy and now she is miserable and wants out. I am going to personal counseling to work on my controlling issues. I have also joined a celebrate recovery group both of which are helping me to see the error of my ways. I know it takes two be controlling, but I can only work on me.

Raymond,
I am trying to choose my words and actions very carefully. If you read the rest of the note you can see that even when I choose the right words it does not always work.

Jazz,
I am trying to do everything I can for her. She is struggling with guilt for the new nicer way I am treating her vs. the anger and resentment she has from our past. The connection to the other man is very difficult for me. I am not in a position to be able to tell her to cut off all ties. He is a son of the lady she has been hanging around so they will still see each other even is she stops texting him. I will get the books you mentioned. I am doing the “love dare” book right now. It is mostly falling on a closed heart, but I am still going forward. I want her to tell me how to give her space. I have asked her if she wants me to stay downstairs after the kids are in bed or if she wants to talk. I don’t want to run off downstairs if that is not what she wants, but I don’t want to be upstairs if she wants to have her time. She does not tell me what she wants. I even asked it as a gentle question like describe a perfect evening while I am living in the basement. With any question its always I don’t know. She did open up to me about some past anger she had. It was a after a counseling session she had. I just listened and it helped me understand her view of the relationship and the pain she was in.


I did end up moving back into the house although it was a interesting revelation for me the way it happened. I talked to her on Sunday and said “I am uncomfortable staying in the hotel because I don’t like being away from the kids and I feel like I can’t show you love and support. Can you think about me staying in the basement and let me know what you decide” Then the next night I had watched the kids so she could go to counseling. After she got home and the kids were in bed I said I was going to go to the hotel. She said “I thought you were going to stay in the basement” I said I would like to if that is ok with you. She said “well that is what you said last night that you were going to stay in the basement” I did not discuss that anymore with her, but I realized that in her mind she passes everything she hears or thinks or does through a sort of internal filter that is “what would make my husband happy” she has done it for so long that now it is second nature. There have been several times in our relationship that I have said something like “I like that” or “Wouldn’t it be neat if” and she has later said you said you wanted this or that. I was always confused when this happened, but assumed it was just a misunderstanding in the way I said it. But that conversation about moving back in I had rehearsed over and over because I did not want to come off as controlling. I don’t know if she can realize this on her own or not. I thought about recording a conversation where I tell her a feeling I am having and then the next day for her to tell me what I said and compare that to the recoding. I won’t really do this, but it was just a thought.

[Ageing Grace]

That's a very perceptive reply, Confused. I admit I'm surprised - you're definitely taking on board what you have learned!

It will be interesting to hear how you apply your learning about your wife's 'pleasing' behaviour patterns. Her over-compliance suggests she has some long-term issues which, as Jazz implied, have been agitated by her father's death.

It's fantastic that you're both going to counselling. I believe there's a real possibility that you will end up together, in a far happier marriage - the one you both wanted from the beginning, if only you'd known how!

This is a tricky path to climb. But worth it. I wish you both the very best of luck, and a helping hand when you most need it. If your wife knows you're posting to a forum, please give her my warm wishes - and the same to you, of course.

AG

[Raymond]

Confused this is so confusing (excuse the pun). There is obviously more going on than first was apparent.

I hadn't picked up that the lady had a son. Is this a threat? I think you have to keep your eye on that and maybe confront him if it gets a bit iffy.

We know your wife is in mourning which seems to be affecting her and the way she is behaving but there is past history as well. Is this about your controlling? No it doesn't take two to control only one. The other one will only feel controlled. The fact that you have now seen this will make a difference but the wounds are still there and need to be healed.

I never thought you should have moved out in the first place. I don't think you should be so apologetic, living in the basement and what not. You can be considerate in other ways. That is your home as well. What if this other chap came around? You don't want to give signals that your marriage is over.

It is good that she is getting counseling. Hopefully she will work through the present issues. The changes you have made will take time to work through and won't really be believed until they have stood the test of time.

All you can do is keep loving her and just being there for her, but keep your eyes on this other fellow because of her present vulnerability.

Raymond

[confused555]

AgeingGrace,
I would like to know HOW to apply what I have learned about my wife’s pleasing to communicate with her. Just last night she came home from my daughters dance practice and said I was mad at her for not getting home at a certain time. I had no expectations plans or anything. I figured she would be out much later than she was so I was of course not mad. I tried to reassure her of this, but it’s like she thinks she knows what I want. I admit the my old self would of expected her home earlier because I know what time dance practice ended. If she got home later than normal I would have asked where she was. I don’t know what is controlling and what is not right now. I am trying to learn the balance between assertive and controlling statements. I am hopeful making progress, but she told me last night she went looking for apartments. She says I make her feel guilty anytime she sees me.

Raymond,
Yes the whole story is very confusing. Yes the son of this lady is the man she was texting. I have asked once what went on with him and she said just a friendship and she should not have been confiding in another man and she would stop. She never said what went back and forth on the texts of what else they did together other than it was not sexual. Just the other night the older lady called and said she was going over to her sons (the texting man) house to take something there. My wife asked her if she had been drinking (she said she sounded drunk) and the lady said yes. My wife said I am going to go take her cause I don’t want her driving drunk. My emotions kicked into overdrive but I resisted the urge to say anything. She looked at me and said I can tell your upset what’s going on (she can read my facial expressions like a book). I said “Its Just” and then stopped. I said we can talk about it later. The older lady called her back and said her husband would take her so my wife did not go. Later my wife said I felt like you were being controlling earlier and I told her that I was struggling with that issue and I know I did not handle it properly. I explained that I did not think it was appropriate to go over to this mans house at night. She said she did not want her friend driving drunk, and she could not believe that I did not trust her. I said we both need to work on our trust (because she does not trust that I won’t continue to work or overcome my control issues). This really upset her. She went off about how this won’t work if I can’t trust her, and how 2 weeks of a friendship does not compare to the 18 years of pain I have caused her. She said it’s over. The next day she went to look for apartments. When she came home I asked her if she signed a lease or she was going to sign a lease she said she does not know. She seemed a little more open to talk, but says she is really bothered by my trust issues. I don’t get this because if the roles where reversed and I texted another woman 60 times over two days she would leave me in a heartbeat.

She did not like the counselor she saw on Monday. She is going to see the same counselor I am seeing tonight. This will be the second time she has seen her. The first time she thought she was good but did not want to use the same counselor as me. Now that she has tried 3 other counselors she is going back to the one I use for the second time.

I am trying to show her love and patience. I am being treated like a doormat and don’t like that. I know that if I were to ask for respect or anything it would be turned into a controlling issue and push her further away. I don’t know if it is right, but I feel like my only hope is to hang in there until she gets several sessions of counseling to help her overcome her passive tendencies, and handle the grief of her mom and dad.

[Jazz204]

I have read all the threads and thought about it. Rather than counselling, I recommend a psychiatrist. Seriously, they are worth far more than a counsellor in a case such as this. What I hear is not anything that requires blame, or is anything to do with marriage problems as such. Rather, here is a woman who loves her husband and family and who requires a time of going back over some things from her childhood. Thats where all this starts from and is deeply connected to her parents. You will go round and round, akin to trying to get a jelly back into a mould, if you come from a marriage guidance stance.
In the meantime, as one person advised, choose your words carefully, dont be reactive to anything she says, she can only respond negatively if you give her something to react against, smile a lot, love her openly, dont allow this to blemish the next generation (your young children) and get professionally trained personnel with experience. One or two consults with a trained psychologist and she will marvel at how easy it is, how quickly one can feel better, how wonderful the trained person is, and then she will start to grow and change and accept and love again.
There is nobody in their right mind who would think that your wife should have rushed off to help her drunk friend go to visit the son. Of course it was not the right thing to do. You know what is right and wrong in your heart and so does she. You both sound like wonderful, loving people to me, and it comes through strongly how much you love each other. Dont even think of moving out again, never mention it, never respond if she mentions it. You are there, that is where you are staying and you shall both get through this. Head up, both of you. Make the changes, it will be worth it.

[Jazz204]

and if you feel you are being treated like a doormat, well so be it. She is in reactive stage, she wants to find herself, wants to shed the grief and the deep problems. Forgive her if she is not the most fair, the most sensitive to your needs, the most anything. I am sure it wont be forever. The pendulum is swinging broadly, she is overreactive, is not herself. What she does now is not going to be the way she is in the future. Serve your wife, read Mother Teresa's words, become a bigger person yourself. It will be worth it.

[Raymond]

Just a quick reply confused as time short just now. Your wife seems to resent your lack of trust for her. From what you say she has stepped back from the relationship with this fellow and knows it is wrong. I think you can therefore trust her in this under the circumstances. A control issue is not trusting the other to be a person but wanting to control outcomes because of ones own insecurities. She is very sensitive to this now because of the past so you almost have to go the other way to show you have changed. As I said before it will take time for this to sink in. I don't think she wants to leave but threatens to to get her point accross. Love never controls another as you have probably learned by now. Now is a very difficult time because of all sorts of things not the least what she is being healed of. I would study more what control is. Men do it through domination and women do it through manipulation. It is not loving. I think you have to keep away from the bad habits of the past and allow her to be herself. Everything you do can be judged by one criteria and that is "Is it loving".

Raymond

[Jazz204]

Raymond is very wise.

[confused555]

Jazz,
I have read that a psychiatrist is the brain surgeon of mental health. I would love for my wife to go see one. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to recommend anything. I know I have to watch what I say. It seems like everything I say is somehow repurposed into a controlling statement. Also, thank you for your perspective on letting her be overactive. I do let her say and do whatever she wants without reacting to it. The going over this guy’s house late at night was just too much for me to let go. I have been told that it is important to have boundaries during this so things don’t go too far. I just don’t know where to far is. Stuff like the texting was too much for me and I spoke up, but the aftershock of this is still causing trouble. She thinks it can’t work because I won’t trust her anymore. It defies logic. She had the 2 week relationship with this guy, and is mad at me because I don’t trust her right now, and she swears I never will be able to. I know I am not supposed to react to her statements. I don’t react outwardly, but I do have trouble digesting them.

Raymond,
That is a very simple approach to help me judge my actions. My counselor said it as what is your motivation, but the “Is it loving” will be much easier to apply and follow. Rather than spend 1 min pondering what I am about to say to see what my motivations are I can just say it in my head and see if it sounds loving. Thank you for this simple philosophy.



I am confused about a situation that may happen tonight. The daycare where she is working (the one the older lady owns) is having a Halloween festival tonight. She will be there as an employee, and both of our kids will be there. I asked her if she wanted me to stop by, and she said no that she will be busy and won’t be able to talk to me. Then she said something about well you can if you want to, but I’ll be busy. I said something about being there for the kids, and she said you can if you want to. I imagine the guy that she has been texting will be there. I don’t really want to go because I will feel very uncomfortable around this guy. Now if I don’t go I am afraid that she will say something like I thought you were going to stop by, and I don’t know how to answer that. If I answer honestly she will think I can’t handle her being around this other guy and I don’t trust her. If I don’t go then it will appear like I care about the kids. Its another tightrope situation and I don’t know what to do.

[Raymond]

Confused this working out what things will seem like if you do that or this can get you in a mess. Paradoxically you are almost letting yourself be controlled by your wife although she is not trying to control you. Do what you want to do. You don't have to give reasons unless asked. If you are there for the children fine. If you are not there because of this fellow fine although I think you ought to be able to stand up to him if you really wanted to go. You do need to watch him a little as well I think.

Nobody wants you to be a doormat. Not controlling someone doesn't mean you don't say ouch if they tread on your toes. Try and trust her about this fellow though. If you do go don't give her the impression that you are spying on her. If something were untoward you will know it straight away. Interfering with your marriage is treading on your toes I would have thought and if that was the case you are entitled to some thoughts. In the present scenario however try and give her the trust that she is sensitive about.

Raymond

[confused555]

Raymond,

It does feel like she is controlling me now. I have made up my mind not to go tonight. The situation is likely to get to be too much for me to remain 100% calm especially if I see the txt guy and he gives me a bad feeling. Not much good can come out of going. The issue is in her asking. She likes to ask… Every time I have a counseling session she wants to know everything I talked about. I usually try to satisfy her curiosity while not telling her stuff she does not need to hear. I have not decided how to answer, but I will come up with a good answer for why I did not go.

I think your right I need to trust her. I mean if I trust her then I can sleep easier, and I can not worry as much. Nothing good can come from not trusting her. It is her decision either way and by trusting her I will fill a void she has. So why not accept that she is being honest. Why didn’t I think about the other day when I opened my big mouth and said “we both need to work on our trust”?

Thanks for your input.

[MSC71]

I would like to know HOW to apply what I have learned about my wife’s pleasing to communicate with her. Just last night she came home from my daughters dance practice and said I was mad at her for not getting home at a certain time. I had no expectations plans or anything. I figured she would be out much later than she was so I was of course not mad. I tried to reassure her of this, but it’s like she thinks she knows what I want. I admit the my old self would of expected her home earlier because I know what time dance practice ended. If she got home later than normal I would have asked where she was. I don’t know what is controlling and what is not right now. I am trying to learn the balance between assertive and controlling statements. I am hopeful making progress, but she told me last night she went looking for apartments. She says I make her feel guilty anytime she sees me.



If she says you are making her feel guilty then I would take that very seriously. If you are begging and pleading with her etc. then you probably are making her feel guilty. And don't ask her where she is going, what time she will be home etc. unless you absolutely have to know.

IF she was late from dance practice and you asked her where she was, she will take that as controlling. Especially if you have a bad tone or bad facial expressions etc when saying it. Sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it that will set her off.

Your best bet is to be nice and respectful to her. If she is going somewhere don't ask any questions. Just tell her to have fun. No amount of control will keep someone from cheating on you. If someone wants to cheat, they will cheat no matter what. It has nothing to do with control.

[Ageing Grace]

Very good advice from MSC there :)

Confused, I understand what you mean about your wife's assumption you'll be angry with her. My mother does this, too - and I used to do it. It's a legacy from my father: his controls taught us that any deviation from his expectations of of us would lead to punishment (physical or emotional).

In support of MSC's answer, above, I would like to tell you how I've seen Mum change over the 10 years since Dad died. She's had two long-term 'boyfriends' in this time (the first one died). Both of these are much nicer, better-adjusted people than Dad. They have both shown great patience and humour around her anxiety.

When Mum gets into a state because she's late, even beginning her greeting with "I know you'll be cross ... ", they just say something like "No, I'm not cross, isn't it a nice evening?"

If she has to make a trip that might be difficult, they come with her to help. She is slowly learning that it's OK to ask for a lift if her car isn't working; she won't be made to 'pay' for asking. She can make her own arrangements; plan events for herself - instead of having them vetted first by her partner, she can share her news with pleasure.

She can even cook a meal without referring to his dietary edicts, and she no longer falls to pieces if the food gets burned: she can even share a joke about it! She still says things like "I did something awful today ... " when she's merely forgotten a trivial task :rolleyes: But, recently, she's begun to follow this up with "Oh, I suppose it's not the end of the world."

The stress induced by constant self-evaluation, self-censoring and self-criticism is beginning to fall away from her. Her 'boyfriends' have never known this stress, since control of or by others has not shaped their personalities.

My Mum's becoming more relaxed and, as a side-effect, is gaining in understanding. It's a joy to see :)

By loosening your 'controls' - and developing your capacity to share - you will undoubtedly help yourself towards a much more enjoyable style of being. You'll also help to create the emotional space for your wife to heal.

MSC's pointers make a great start. Good luck!

Best wishes,
AG

[confused555]

I have stopped with the begging and pleading, and don’t ask questions about what time she will be home unless I have a really good reason. I realize I also need to stop worrying about the other guy. Nothing I say or do can keep her from doing what she wants to do. It’s just so hard to know she has something going on. When my son came home from the Halloween party and told me about it he mentioned the texting guys name several times (I did not ask or press the issue it was just him telling me about the party). I don’t know how to let this go. I know she is in limbo right now trying to figure things out but it hurts so bad to think about it.


The rest of this is just me trying to get my feelings out. The past week has been rough because she keeps being more negative. We were home Saturday morning and she decided to leave to the older ladies house. She said something about being home at 4 to go to dinner before we took the kids trick or treating because she wanted to start trick or treating at 5. I said give me a call because me and the kids might go somewhere and we could just meet or whatever. I took the kids to the movies and to a park. We were at the park and she had not called so at 4:30 I texted her asking her if she wanted to meet for dinner. I went back home to get her and we went out. She asked me what we did and when I told about the movies she said why you take them to the movies you never have before. She was upset about it. One time in the past I mentioned taking them to the movies while she was gone and she got upset because she wanted us to all go together. So from then on I never took them. Now that she is staying gone all the time and not spending anytime with the kids I thought we all deserved to have some fun. They wanted to go see the movies so I took them. I just told her that in the past I had not taken them because I wanted to do what I wanted. Now I was trying to do things they kids wanted. Then I also dressed up for Halloween because the kids asked me to. They got a kick out of it. I think I have only dressed up one other Halloween, and she gave me a hard time for doing that to. Then Saturday night she got sick and was throwing up. I cleaned up the messes and took care of her. Then my daughter started throwing up, and I took care of her also. She asked me to sleep upstairs so I could be there for both of them and I did. She said sometime earlier in the day that she needed to clean her car sometime so I got up early Sunday and took it to the carwash. When I got back I started to get me and the kids ready for church. She was laying in bed sick, but the she got up and started cleaning the house. I asked her if she wanted to go with us and she got mad. She said I just get mad at you when I go to church with you. She is upset because in the past I would drag my feet about going to church. A few times she would get up and take the kids and leave me sleeping. When she would get back I would be sad that she did not wake me, but on times she woke me I was grumpy about it. I know that this was a frustrating thing for her. She felt like I would be upset if she left me at home, and then she felt like I would be upset if she took me. So she gave up going a lot because of me. Since this whole thing has happened I have realized how selfish I had become. Now I want to go to church for me and the kids. She is upset that I want to go to church now, and not when she wanted to. She was complaining that the house was filthy and she needed to clean it. I have been doing all the housework for about the last 3 weeks, but I had not dusted or cleaned the mirrors and the small stuff. I said if she wanted to rest I could clean when I got back. When we got back home she was on the couch ready to leave. She wanted to take our kids one of their friends birthday party. I asked her if she wanted me to go and she said no you got to do stuff with them yesterday. That made me angry because she is the one who wanted to leave Saturday and I guess I was suppose to stay at home and clean the house and not do anything fun with the kids. I was nice and told her to have a good time. She said the older lady was going to meet her at the party. I figured she would stay out late with her and I asked her if she knew what time she might be home so I could make sure and be there to help with the kids and get their homework done since she was still not feeling well. She said I’ll just be there for a 2 hours and left. I staid home and cleaned the house. About 7 hours later (a little before the kids bedtime) she called saying she wanted to drop off the kids and then she would go over to the older ladies house to visit some more. She never even got out of the car when she dropped them off. I figured she would be out with them all day, but I did not make any plans because she said she would only be gone a few hours. I know plans change, and she might have been feeling better, but I would of went over to a friends house for a while or something if I would of know she would have been gone all day. When she got home I was down stairs I came up and she asked me what the sermon was over at church. After I told her she did not say anything. I asked her if she wanted to talk or if she wanted her space. She did not say anything so I told her I loved her and went back downstairs. I think she was still bothered by me going to church. It so weird because she is angry with me for going to church and making me doubt my going, and that is what she said I did to her. I never realized I was doing it, but I wander if she does or is equally oblivious to the message she is sending. I have also realized not to expect any recognition for any thing I do. I was a still sad that after I spent 7 hours at home cleaning the house, and cleaning her car in the morning that she never said a word. I don’t know what got me started on that, but I just needed to get it off my chest. I am trying to do everything I can to be loving and need to get these feelings out to someone other than her.

[Ageing Grace]

Thanks for that, Confused :)

I don't know if others will agree with me, but I'd show her what you just wrote. It demonstrates a huge amount of awareness about what went wrong before, and how you are working to put it right.

Best wishes,
AG

[confused555]

AG,

I’m not sure how that would go. She keeps asking about what my counselor and I talk about, what other people say etc… I tell her some details, but not everything. I told her about some stuff I was working with on with the counselor and have regretted it. I looked at is as a positive acknowledgement that I messed up and was working to correct it. She looked at it like I was more messed up than she thought. One thing I have been saying to myself over and over again is I want to do everything I can in the most loving way possible. If in the end we end up separate I don’t want to have any regrets for saying this or doing that and pushing her away. I have already done enough damage, and hope that I don’t do any more.

[jellybean28]

Hi Confused

I have read all the threads and I can see why you are confused. There is so much going on between you and your wife. :confused:

You say you have been controlling and are trying to change. Congratulations you should be proud of yourself.

As I see it your wife appears to be depressed to me, and is blaming you for it, not only is she going through the grief of losing a parent she is now trying to deal with a husband who is trying to do the right thing by her.
Add to that a new older female friend, who has befriended her while she is at present very funerable, her friends son as gotton into the picture as well. Then there is you wanting to do things as a family and things with your children. To top it all off there seems to be a huge communication problem.

Confused what you are doing to help your wife is great, but I think you are becoming a bit of a door mat for her and probably feel like you are walking on eggshells to please her. Your wife is grieving and very angry at the world at the moment, also I think she feels guilty for the way she is treating you and threatened because of the way you are changing (will you still love her? or will your growth leave her behind) You deserve to be shown some gratitude for your efforts to show you wife that you love her and want to help get her though this. I think she has gotton into a deep hole emotionally and doesn't know how to get out of it, or even where to begin to start to try getting out of it.
As a woman who has experienced something similar you may have your work cut out for you. If she won't get professional help herself your continuing seeing a councellor is a great idea, you need to look after yourself.
Confused from how I have read your posts, I feel your actions may be a bit mechanical and not really from your heart correct me if I am wrong.

With the halloewenn night thing with your wife, I wouldn't have asked if she wanted me there to watch your children I would have said I'm looking forward to coming and seeing you and the children tonight. If the OM was going to be there, that's OK he would have seen what a loving husband and dad you are. Also if your wife does something for even if making you a coffee stop what you are doing and look her in the eye and say thanks. This will help make her feel appreciated. Hopefully she will recipricate with you. When doing things as a family say things like the Kids would love it if you came along etc. I think you get the picture.

My suggestions may help they may not, only you will know. Confused I think you are a truly wonderful man for having the courage to try and change your ways, also if its easier a letter from the heart to your wife wouldn't be a bad idea.

Hopefully I haven't cofused things for you even more :confused:

[Raymond]

I think I am beginning to get confused with some of the things going on here. She seems very unappreciative for anything you do. You are going out of your way not to control her. She is not around enough.

To me it almost looks like she has stopped working on the marriage because of the past but somehow sees it as a threat that you are changing for the better. Could this be getting to her in the way that she might now need to work on her marriage and she is reluctant to make the effort? Before she may have felt justified because of the way you were.

You are hampered because she is recovering and being healed but somehow you are beginning to be a doormat as Jellybean pointed out.

Raymond

[confused555]

JellyBean,
The things I am doing are coming truly from the heart. I have reprioritized my life because of this event. I have a lot different outlook on my wife, friends, church, and work. It is as if I was blind, but now see how selfish I was in some areas. I have made sure to recognize anything my wife does for me. She even says she sees the changes in me and thinks they are great. She says it is just too late.

Raymond,
She has and admitted to not working on the marriage. She says she is to bitter to work on the marriage She says she just does not know what she wants. The only positive thing she is doing for herself is she is going to individual counseling. Her family who she has always been very close to keep calling her asking for them to call. She does not return the calls and says they are trying to make her feel guilty for not talking to them. Her mom tried calling yesterday and asked her to please call because she knew my wife was off work. My wife told me about the messages and how her family was trying to control her. Her sister keeps calling me asking what’s going on. So it’s not just me she is doing this to. She also did it to a very close friend. The friend stopped me the other day and asked how things were going. I said I was confused, and she said I am too. Her friend told me “I just can’t believe she was that unhappy’

Things took a bad turn for me last night. She said she is planning to sign a lease on an apartment. We talked about it for a while and I asked what she expected to happen. She kept saying I don’t know. I asked about finances, child custody, separating our accounts, insurances cell phones etc. She just said I don’t know. She said you seem so matter of fact about this stuff. I told I was just trying to understand how she envisioned the separation working. The only thing she had a plan for was the child custody. She said M and W with her, and Tue and Thur with me and the alternate Fri Sat Sun. That seems like a lot of exchanges and confusion for them, but I don’t know.

I am being loving. I did not hound her over the questions I just asked them once and she never answered. She is going to sign a year lease, she said she wanted 6 months but they would not do it. I also asked if she still wanted to see each other, or would we keep it to just what we needed to do for the kids. Again she said, I don’t know.

Am I wrong for wanting answers? Should I just hang in limbo and hope things work out? I just don’t know what to do. Is she just doing this hoping I will say ok fine lets divorce, or does she truly not know? Any Ideas?

[Raymond]

I think she was/is a little confused which in turn is making you confused. This is probably all part of the tradgedy she has expierenced. She is desperately wanting something. I hope that something turns out to be the new you.

What can you do? I think you just have to see it through. Be patient because of her condition but don't go so far as to be a doormat. If you can be a stable influence in her life all the better. It seems a low point at the moment but she just might not follow through by the sound of it. Lets say it's not over until it's over.

The fact that she is treating her family the same way and accusing them of control might show that it is her condition just now rather than just you.

She is looking for something but doesn't really know what that is. I think when it all catches up with her you will not seem so bad after all.

Raymond

[jellybean28]

Hi confused

I'm no doctor but after your last post could it be possible she's has some sort of breakdown, because of her grief.

Could the new older female friend be influencing her in some way? Something similar happended to my grandmother years ago. In her case it was a young mother who befriended her, she ended up stealing from her and my grandmother turned against her children, saying they didn't care about her and other stuff, it was really side for my mum and sisters.

No your not wrong for wanting answers, and no you shouldn't have to be in limbo land. In regard to the children, I think what she wan'ts is unfair to them and yes confusing for them. Maybe Sun-wed for one of you and Thurs-Sat night Sunday morning for the other may be more helpful for the children. Don't let her have what suits her wants when it comes to the children,do the best by them to make things as easy for them as possible through all this.

Maybe she is hoping you will say enough let's divorce, this way depending on the way she's thinking it may make her look like the wounded party. I don't know.

keep looking afteryourself Confused for your sake and your childrens. Keep posting and asking questions out loud here, it may help you find the answer your looking for.

[1aokgal]

Confused555...

You think you are confused????? That is an understatment for me! I cannot get it that you moved out of the family home and waited on her with baited breath to decide where you should be. Listen!! POINT BLANK ..Are you a man or a mouse? I don't want to be insulting, but you seriously need to think what is going on here. I see things entirely from different eyes than others and wonder about what I see here.

You have two small children. Yes, OK..she is sad about her family losses BUT she is no child and separation from ones' parents should have been long accomplished. I think the "friend" ..the lady who bought her some clothes and they spend every night together..gave her a job, etc. ......has the son ...there seems something wrong there. I say BIG TIME wrong. Between you, me and the lamp post....I don't think your wife is texting the SON! I think that is all a smoke screen for some strange... fascination, friendship or whatever with this woman. Too many things don't add up. If it dosen't add up...it smells of deception. You have a GUT feeling there is something going on. I believe your gut. I just don't think you see the whole picture.

Please don't tell me I have a smudgy mind. I am the mother of a daughter who came out of the closet after 32 years of my thinking I knew my daughter. Back to what I said..you don't leave your house and you don't crawl into the basement and ask her permission. Move yourself BACK into your bedroom and your bed. If she dosen't care for that perhaps she chooses to sleep in the next bedroom. You must renegotiate who is HEAD of household? YOU or her? Controlling? I don't see you as controlling. Maybe detached, would be my word.

I think you need some clear speaking between you and your wife. I wonder if there was any dramatic things happened to her as a child and her whole identity is in question? Don't play around with this anymore about where you will be sleeping. Your little kids must be very upset with all this conflict. You should be there at home with your children. I also wonder if there is not a surface thing with her to keep YOU around.....albeit IN THE BASEMENT.....as you are the main wage earner? Let the kid gloves come off. Sit down and ask some direct questions. If you don't like the answers, maybe she should be the one who moves out.

Sorry you are getting mixed signals but I think you are not seeing the forest for the trees. I personally believe most of this is a smoke screen for your benefit. Perhaps these two women have a different scenario and usually most of us don't get it. I question the amount of time they spent together. The woman bought her clothes? They go on vacation together? I see the woman having a few drinks too many. Maybe she is conflicted about HER home situation. I don't think your wife was texting the SON. I think that is a smoke screen for your eyes. Personally, I think there is something not right about the "friendship" with the woman. What do you know about WHO she was texting? You ASSUMED it was the guy she was texting. Your gut is telling you right .... you know something is wrong there but you interpret it as most of us would do. That there is "another man."

So long as the son is around maybe you are not seeing the whole picture? Rethink that, and start to see some of the incidents you describe. Yes, get some clear speaking with her and listen closer to what you hear. It is great you are seeing the counselor together. It sounds like you are a very nice man who needs to take back his power and security in the household.

My relationship with my daughter is good but I see things now I would not have seen before.

Sure hope what I feel about all this is not the case. The problem is..it is happening all the time! The best thing would be if the truth ..whatever it is..can be worked out between you both and you reconnect. Never alllow the wife to make all the decisions. You make a decision to fight for the marriage or let it...and her go. Too much drama around her grief. I think there is more to this.

PS Be a good fellow and SPACE your postings into paragraphs so we can all read it easier. One won't read a very long post all jumbled together.

[jellybean28]

wow 1aokgal

that's a new twist you've put on things!!!
Confused you must be bamboozled now you poor thing :confused:

Still lots of good advice and food for thought from 1aokgal

[Raymond]

This is something I wouldn't dare to think of but it is an angle. 1Okgal doesn't go by half measures. She is usually very right or very wrong. Whats to lose to check it out? It would be a possible answer to the confusion on this thread. If it is that you are certainly being taken for a ride confusion. One needs so much wisdom on here.

Raymond

[Ageing Grace]

I wondered about that, too - but didn't want to confuse you still further!

I agree with my bossy pal ;) You do deserve to know what facts there are, and you deserve to live in your own house. 1AOKgal's plan sounds reasonable to me.

As you are so confused, it would be a very good idea for you to prepare thoroughly the points you need to discuss with your wife and the outcomes you expect - prepare as if for a business meeting and, as far as you are able, conduct the meeting with focus and clarity.

So good luck!

AG x

[confused555]

1aokgal,
My counselor mentioned that the older ladies behavior was courting behavior. It is a weird relationship. I would really like to know her motivations. There is definitely stuff from my past that is causing me to act the way I am. My mother divorced my dad when I was 3 and when the judge tried to award her custody she had to tell the judge she did not want me and my dad got custody of me. My mom has been in and out of my life. Through counseling I have realized I was always afraid if I did something wrong my mom might not come back. I also have these same feelings for my wife. I can’t stand the thought of loosing her, and it’s affecting my behavior.

Raymond,
I don’t understand how I would check it out?

Ag,
I tried the plan the other day, but all I got was I don’t know and if I pushed it I was being controlling.

I certainly choose the right screen name when I started this whole ordeal. I struggle with what to do every day. I wake up in the middle of the night with my heart racing and can’t get back to sleep. The conversations I have with her are always a mixture of hope and hopelessness.

It is good that this has been drawn out over several weeks because I am able to not react to some of her statements and actions. She signed a 1 year lease and is suppose to move in Dec 1st. She told me that the manager told her she could cancel anytime before then. She seemed relieved when the apartment manager told her that. Then on the other hand she was talking about how life would be living in the apartment and how she sees her life in a year and it never includes reconciliation. She has talked how she wants us to get along well after the divorce for the kids. She said I still want to plan their birthday parties together. She said things about how everything we have has been my dream. She said it was me who wanted the house with the yard, and this and that. She said all I ever wanted was to stay married to the same man for the rest of my life.

Her sister told me that my wife told her I was confusing her. My wife told her sister that she was originally set on divorce, but now with all the changes I am making she does not know anymore. I am so afraid that if she moves out it will be over. I can’t do all the nice things I am doing now if she is not in the same house with me. I will do everything I can, but it won’t be the same. I never thought our relationship would end up like this.

My wife said I could go look at the apartment if I wanted. I told her no thank you. It was her decision and I trust her. I don’t know if I should have gone to look at it or not.

My counselor gave me a list of 25 things to decide and work on during a separation to make it more conducive to reconciliation. My wife read it, but when I asked about certain points she got defensive and said I was being controlling. Some of the things were like agreeing to reevaluate the separation every month, agreeing not to date other people, deciding how frequently you will see each other during the separation. List your goals for the separation. I asked her for her thoughts on some of these, and she said I was trying to control the separation. I don’t know what to do. It’s like she is going into this blindfolded and has not made any decisions about what she wants out of the separation. I asked her if she wanted me to contact her during the separation and at first she said I don’t know. Then she said something about no contact other than kid exchange for a month. Then later she said something about getting together at least once a week. The next day she talked like she would still come over to the house to decorate for Christmas and stuff like that. She even said stuff about me staying in the apartment with her.

The “is it loving” is really helping me to be a better person. I am also going through personal counseling and realizing how I got to be the way I am. I have major issues with my father and mother and working on them is painful. He was a controlling abusive father and husband and while I tried as hard as I could to be different than him I ended up controlling my wife in more passive ways. I started to listing to an audio program called “Light her Fire” it is really opening my eyes to what a woman needs from a man to feel loved. I am trying the principals in hopes that she will feel all the love I have for her. Do you guys have any other recommendations?

[Raymond]

Quite obviously your personal problems are helping to confuse issues. Your childhood doesn't help. A bad start but it doesn't have to be a bad finish. I am living proof of that. My parents divorced even earlier than yours and neither of them seemed to have custody. I grew up in four different orphanages and was sexually abused. With God's help one can gradually overcome. God is a healing God and puts the solitary into families.

You asked how to check it out about what 1okgal said. To be quite blunt a few on here suspect that there may be a possible lesbian relationship (I hope I have got this right) between this woman and your wife. It may not be so but it is worth checking out as it may explain things a bit.

The way you check it out is just to be aware of it. Bide your time ask questions but don't let on in case it goes underground, if it is true that is. Sooner or later if it is true you will know. Who do you think is going to visit her in this new flat? It all may be a red herring but I think it is an avenue to look into.

It sounds to me like she doesn't want a clean break from you but neither does she want a full committal. Could this be a ploy to accomodate the other woman?

On the ecouraging side she is recognising that you are changing and this might be creating a problem for her especially if the thing about the other woman is true, which it may or may not be.

Raymond

[Jenn]

I hope that your wife realizes the effort that you are putting into this marriage (reading, therapy, and writing on this thread). Perhaps, it's too late...

If my husband were making the efforts your were making right now, we wouldn't have a problem.

You're to be commended!

[clockwork orange]

Dear Confused

I suspected right from the beginning of your thread that what aok says may be true. Speaking as one who has been there. I had an affair with an older woman when my marriage ran into trouble due to my H being emotionally abusive and controlling.

So far, you have pretty much tried all the things he did. Calling day and night till I stopped answering. Expensive presents. Doing the doormat thing. Aok is right. Stand up for what you know to be right. You are the head of the household. Why shoukd you give up your house, your bed etc because she doesn't know what she wants. And if I read it right, she doesn't know what she wants. Assertiveness training would help - that was, after God, the thing that turned us around. He calmly asserted himself, no tantrums, no threats, but a definite sense that he was going to stand up and do the right thing regardless of whether I followed. I was so intrigued that I followed......

Re the possibility of a gay relationship. Sounds like the OW has latched onto your W's emotional distress and made herself out to be the only one who can fix it. I read the story and had a huge deja vu.... The OW isn't a short well-endowed blonde by any chance? Your wife is rapidly becoming emotionally dependant on OW and is unlikely to hear a bad word. You need to prepare to dig in. It may take 2 - 3 years for the cracks in OW armour to appear sufficiently for your W to begin to wonder what she has got into. When it falls apart she will need you more than you can guess. That is the time to put your foot down firmly and insist she break off contact.

The relationship may not be overtly sexual, better if it were just that. The emotional, soulmate type of thing may well be more damaging in the long run.

I agree with Raymond that there are probable childhood issues she needs to deal with. But she won't face them until she hits the bottom. Be patient, stand your ground and be there to pick up the pieces. That is what my H did. It took 2 years for the mess to eventually be over.

I also didn't pick up your W's age. Wondered whether MLC/menopause related to her family tragedy might be a factor.

Hope there is something in that lot that might help

Clockwork

[1aokgal]

jellybean28,


The world is a different place and sometimes things are right under our noses but we are too close to see it or too naiive to see it.

I will tell you a little personal story. Years ago I hired a woman to work in my small office as a cpunselor. She was married with a teen daughter. She had been in the military and knew how to deal with some crusty ex-military men. Many of my clients needed this approach. I was too fussy, feminine in some ways. My perfect fashion plate look could turn off a guy who worked under a car and talked shop so I needed her expertise and approach. I wanted a person with no-nonsense approach. Since I shared the space in my small office I thought a woman would be good choice. She was also ambitious and tough..perhaps a bit masculine which made her great choice for this counselling/sales position. Since we worked in close proximity, she saw me a bit upset over the "home front" more than a few times and became quite supportive and kind. Let us say I didn't share all my life with an employee but women can blur the work line with similar problems and lives. She also "courted me" with attentive kindness and help in my business.

Well, over a period of some months she was in love with me. What I took as friendly, sharing became more serious until she professed herself. I was then into the 4th year of my purely sexless marriage of 14 years . That was perhaps 12 years ago. I never looked better and kept myself svelte and well dressed. What was funny was that my husband is a jealous man who makes a scene and acts irrational when men are attracted to me. It just did not effect him enough to change the sexual part of our marriage. I often had admirers around me. I believe there is a homing beacon in women in such a marriage. While I did not talk much about the home life at work it was pretty obvious there was a problem. Here was this woman right under the nose and neither of us had a clue as to the agenda.

Her husband and daughter were a smoke screen for me or I was super naiive. The result was that over a period of time we talked about personal issues. There is no mistake in my orientation under any condition. She could not restrain the personal concerns. I suggested we would both be more comfortable if she found other employment. I did not fire her as she had family needs, but she chose to accept the suggestion. She thought I meant that as long as she was not working for me, than it was likely we could become involved. That is how she interpreted this. The big push came when she left my office.

This woman sent me letters, flowers and followed me to lunches and outings. It was only my very rude confrontation that cut this off. A friend told me that my "niceness" sent a wrong signal. She said that until I got really confrontive, as I would be with any man who was unwelcome in advances, this would continue to be a problem and offered hope to her. She was right..so that is how I handled it. That was the end of it.

I heard she later left her husband and lived with another woman.
This is a time of same sex marriages and many who have confusion about life. Marriages end all the time over this issue. So...I see the dynamics in this posting as falling into a very grey area that needs clearing. Let us hope that is a wrong viewpoint.

[1aokgal]

Raymond...

You naiive boy...you could not see the picture here. Yes, I am usually either VERY right or dead wrong. I am also opinionated to a high degree about life. Like you, I hit the depths of problems and then lived with the "haves" as well. I know how it feels to be hungry and struggle to keep a roof overhead. I also live a plush life with a lifestyle completely opposite from my years of struggle. So I have been on both ends.

I lived through a really abusive, scary childhood and worse marriage. Somehow I made it alive.... and mostly sane.

AG :rolleyes::D

Ya' got me...yes, I am bossy as HELL!! HAHA.
You gave me a serious belly laugh, girl:eek:

Confused555...

You are right to be confused, dear friend. You are having the wool pulled over your eyes big time, I think.
...Of course, she wants to be NICEY NICEY..one needs to keep YOU, "the beast....nasty controlling men"......in the fold... in case the new life doesn't work out. There are bills to pay and the rent to worry about. . I think she operates on the promises that the OW will be there for help plus a bonus vacation friend. If she puts the plan in place to get an apartment I am sure that she will have doubts and hope she can still go backward if it does not work out. Perhaps she see you there holding up the back field. She is scared it all may not work out and she will NEED you. She may be really scared about taking such a step.

After all, she depends on that "friend" for her job and for emotional support. We don't know if this is sexual or borderline sexual but YES..your counselor is DEAD right.....she is being COURTED.

Thanks for honesty from our friend here, Clockwork Orange, who shares her personal experience about a woman confused and trying to make decisions. She found her way back to her marriage but she understands that a lesbian relationship offered emotional support and escape from an unhappy life. I feel that is what has occurred here.

Then there is the kind, comeraderie and even financial help she is getting from this OW. One can become confused and maybe there is more there and that is why you are confused. Right under your nose and you would not think to see it.

Dear friend...you must get your britches back on ...and be the HEAD of your household NOW. Do you want your children all screwed up in the head because you can't give them a good firm example of a good man? Controlling? That is so funny. She has fed you garbage and made your desire to be loved and loving into a negative. You have a right to know what goes on in your household.

Sit down with counselor and her and ask her direct where this is going and what is going on. Forget about the GUY. That is a red herring to distract you from the relationship that has developed between these women. Now if that is the case...i personally feel you need to be concerned about the custody of your children and WHAT they witness or know at a young age. Intolerant? Perhaps..but the less the kids pick up the better about any details of adult confusions. Please do talk with your counselor on this issue.

Do NOT be Mr. Nice Guy financially. Your wife figures you are the lamb and she will be keep you in the woods. The run to go out and help the pal when she drank too much seems a smoke screen. You got pushy to take her and spoiled an outing the two would have had together. She then tells you that you are "controlling." You spoiled the outing.

Make sure that you protect yourself with your finances. If she has made a decision to move..rent a place..let her carry that. Get yourself close to family and friends who care about you. Talk this over with your minister and yes, you need some help to get through any separation.

You sound like a nice man and there is life for those who find themselves stranded on the rocks of a marriage that fails. YOU did not fail but events from your childhood gave you a start with a lack of confidence. Sounds like to much deference cost you the respect of this woman. If events are as they seem...she is not the woman you need to build a good decent life.

A HUG for you ..you need one! Perhaps understanding will come and this will make you less confused as you are living in a huge blast of grey smoke.


*****We all must tell our friend here to stand tall and proud. Don't let a woman ..even bossy ones...pull all the shots. Take back your life, confused 555, with or without this woman.

[confused555]

Clockwork,
I have been thinking the same thing. It may take a long time, but something will happen in that relationship and my wife will fall apart. I just don’t where I will be emotionally when that happens. I don’t know if I will heal and move on. It’s is something that I struggle with. She is too young for menopause at least I think she is she is mid 30’s.

1aok,
I would love to set down and discuss things in front of a counselor. The problem is she is refusing to see a marriage counselor. We are both in individual counseling. If I asked her what was going on between her and the older lady she would just say it’s a friendship. She is very naive and does not realize this lady is doing WAY TOO MUCH for her. She thinks the lady just wants to be a friend. She will just take it as me being controlling. Saying someone is controlling is a very good defense. It takes away all of my power. Thank you for your empowering words. I do want to stand up, but if you read the rest of this post I think you will see my struggles with doing that.



We had an argument this morning. I think it was a good thing. She said she was going to take the kids to a movie this afternoon. I asked her if she wanted me to go. Rather than just say no she said something like well I want to take them because you keep taking them without me. I told her I had only taken the kids to one movie and she argued. She said I had taken them to “Cloudy with a chance of meatballs”. I asked the kids to tell her who took them to that movie. They told her it was grandma, and she finally realized I was not lying. She then started telling me that she did not want to spend time away from the kids but was forced to because I would not give her space. She said I asked you to move out and you would not. I told her that I was not the one that wanted to be away. I wanted to be with her and the kids and I wanted to work on our relationship. She said that is why I have to leave to get my space. She told me she looks at this as me being controlling I asked her if she just wanted me and the kids to set and home and wait for her. She said no. I also said you could of taken the kids with you when you went to the older ladies house. We went back and forth about how that she is the one that needs space that is why I am not leaving. I told her I want to work on the relationship and not run away and stay in a hotel. She got defensive and said now you are telling me I am running away. I told her that she was the one who felt like she needed space and she was the one who got the apartment. I was staying and fighting for our relationship. Somewhere in the discussion I said something like “So You don’t want me to go to the movies with you” Later as things calmed down she pointed out that I was controlling when I said that. I was trying to make her feel guilty for not wanting me there. I agree that saying that could be seen as controlling. I don’t know how exactly to feel about it because it is simply a fact. She does not want me there, but she feels guilty saying that. She said that it was good for us to have the discussion. I told her I agreed. She mentioned that she should of just told me “No I don’t want you to go to the movies” She calmed and I am not sure what she took away from the argument.

Through counseling I have realized I have this overwhelming fear of loosing her. I had issues with abandonment from my mother. She did not come around a lot when I was younger and I had this fear that she did not love me and if I said or did anything wrong she might not come back. Now I cower and don’t speak up when what I say might push my wife away. On the other hand my father / step mothers’ relationship was one of extreme control on my father’s part. I know that many of the statements I made in the past were controlling. For example if she wanted to go see her dad in the hospital before he died I might of said sure you can go see your family, but then on the other hand at a later time I would say things like it costs $100 every time you go in gas and food. I would tell her that the kids need a normal routine and fun in their lives and you keep going up there and spending every weekend in a hospital. I would try and guilt her into not going.

So I am struggling to know which side of the fence I am on now. I don’t want to burry my feelings just because she might run away and on the other hand I know I can be controlling. I think the abandonment fear is why I can’t focus on anything else. I can’t focus on work. I can’t just have fun. My mind always wanders to the relationship and weather we are going to end up in divorce. I end up in the funky haze where I just stare at the wall and think about it. I have even had suicidal thoughts and if it weren’t for the damage I would do to my kids I think it would be a lot worse.

I was sleeping in the basement and I had been rubbing her back (she told me she wanted me to) when she went to bed and then I would go downstairs and sleep down there. Then one night she asked me to sleep in the bed with her. I took this as a positive, but I wander if she is doing it to try and make me happy. I can tell she still cares about my emotional state (possibly too much). The other day I told her that I wanted her to be happy but I was sad about her moving out and she felt bad and started to cry. She said she did not want to hurt me. She has bent over backwards in our relationship to make me happy. I know she has done this, and she feels like she has sacrificed her own self in the process and that is why she wants out. She feels like she can’t escape the need to sacrifice herself for my needs. She is afraid if she stays with me she will end up in the same situation again and that is why she feels like she needs to move out. So wants to move out so she can see for herself is she can meet her needs first before worrying about mine. She is so passive that I can’t even make a statement or ask a question in any manner without her trying to figure out what I want.

To all of you that have been through this does it just take time. With me in limbo and constant mixed messages I don’t suppose the healing is going to occur anytime soon. One minute she seems happy about getting an apartment, but then she seems relieved to find out she can cancel the lease at anytime before she moved in. It was also a 1 year lease, but she was relieved when the manager said that she could move out after 6 months and only pay for 2 more months. Then on the other hand she talks about getting a better job and buying a house. My counselor said I need to keep an even keel and not hold on to the positives or negatives because the next one might be the exact opposite. That makes sense, but I am just so hopeful she will change her mind. She will see something in me that give her a reason to start working on us.

[Jenn]

Wow, what a conundrum! I think your wife is taking this "controlling" thing a bit too far. Asking her if she wants you to go to the movies with her and the kids, is NOT controlling.

Sounds like she is trying to reverse roles here and is the one being controlling now. There has to be a happy medium...

I agree with a former post, I think she wants her cake and eat it too.

I'm sad to hear that you feel you can't live without her, I know how this feels... People say time heals all wounds, but it's the pain that is that hardest part and I find myself doing everything to avoid have to serve this "time"...

[clockwork orange]

Confused

I have to agree with much of what Aok says. Since when is standing up for the right thing, wanting to spend time with your family and sleep in your own bed being controlling? You are dealing with your issues and where they come from, and becoming more like God intended you to be. Well done - its takes courage to come as far as you have. Sounds to me like she is quite intrigued by the changes, but also frightened by what that might mean for her.

I remember when I began to fall in love with my husband again. I was terrified, especially by the fear that we'd end up in the same place a few years down the line. Some things HAVE gone back to that place. And it IS scary. But I am not the same person anymore - counselling has helped me to learn to react differently.

It is a two way street though. You can't change her, only yourself. The biblical instruction is for husbands to be head of the household (not dictators though, love is always paramount) - you are learning to become the head. Wives are to submit to their husbands (again, not to be a doormat). It becomes easier for a wife to fulfil her role when the husband is performing his. It can also be really scary for us independant women to discover that we actually quite like it when things are in their rightful order. So keep on doing the right thing. Stand up for youself and your marriage. But also never lose sight of the fact that true love is also other-centred!! Always considering the needs of others before your own. And we need our men to take their place at the head whether we know it or not. We cannot submit to doormats or to dictators.

It may be worth trying less words and more actions - DO love rather than talk about it. And in the meantime get on with your life with your kids. Yes, you need her. But don't make it too obvious or she will play you. Sort out for yourself how you would like it to be and stick to it, don't back down.

Don't know where you stand spiritually, but a loving church family can be a great support. And when they love you they will gently tell you when you're getting off course too!!

Time does heal most things. The amount of it varies for each of us, as well as the process we go through. It is hard to be sensitive to another's pain when you hurt too. This is where her need for space may have initially come from, you end up sparking off each other because you both hurt. If there is stuff needs to be discussed, try scheduling the time on neutral ground without the kids. And set up "rules of contact" and agree to stick to them. That way you can both prepare and de-emotionalise to a degree.

HTH
Clockwork

[Raymond]

Beautifully said CW.

I think she knows Confused that you are sensitive to being controlling and can use that card when it doesn't apply at all.

The case is obviously not black and white as she seems to have good points as well. In a sense Confused your fear of her leaving is controlling you in a wrong way. Fear has torment. To get spiritual, perfect love casts out all fear, but that is another subject. Suffice to say that it is affecting your judgement. Fear is always a bad master.

I agree with other posters that you really need to put your foot down in staying in the house. You are right in all that you said in that she is the one walking out and you are the one who is trying to hold it together.

Raymond

[Ageing Grace]

My mom has been in and out of my life. Through counseling I have realized I was always afraid if I did something wrong my mom might not come back.
...
He was a controlling abusive father and husband


Poor you, Confused, you must have grown up feeling abandoned on both sides :( No wonder the thought of "losing" your wife (being abandoned by her) distresses you so much.

No wonder, either, that you're pulling out all the stops to be nice & good ... in hopes that this will bring her back to you. Just like that little boy thought his mom would come back if he was good.

You may well have made a controlling husband. Even when we decide to be different from our parents, they are still the only role model we had; we can't magic a better model out of nowhere. We can, however, make the effort to learn different ways in adulthood - like Raymond, me, 1AOK and many others here. This you have done. I commend you wholeheartedly!

Nobody who asks themselves "Is it loving?" - and who acts for the positive reply - could be labelled controlling. It's a vast part of the recipe for a perfect spouse! :D Well done, you.

I think you need to accept that you ARE doing the right things. Yes, you may have been "blind" as you put it - now your vision's a bit clearer. You probably have work still to do but don't even think about doubting your progress!

Some of your remaining work is to face the difficult fact that "being good" does not bring people back. There are a million very good reasons for improving our life skills; this has nothing to do with scoring points.

Love is not something given as a reward for good behaviour. It's more complicated than that, isn't it?

There's no way that little boy could make his mum come back - she had her own problems, which a were out of a child's scope. But the child would feel like he was being punished by her.

Part of being loving - as an adult - is to appreciate that others do have their own problems, which can affect us even though we didn't cause them. Your wife's grief, after suffering through her father's horrific illness, is one of these. You can support her with gentleness but you can't make it go away - and are not responsible for it.

If it feels like she's abandoning you through grief, so be it. It's harsh but there it is. She's NOT punishing you - you know that; you're no longer a little boy. She is, undoubtedly, playing out some emotional drama of her own but this is not your responsibility.

You have responsibilities to yourself and your children. So does she, though she seems incapable of stepping up to them at the moment. By all means give her time and space. But don't assume you have to roll over to her every demand and accusation - that's how a little boy might think, not the adult male you now are.

How often do you say "No"?
What's wrong with "X is not acceptable because ..."?

When she says you're being controlling, do you excuse yourself? Don't. If you must respond, say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and then leave it.

Thank you for sharing this:
I would say things like it costs $100 every time you go in gas and food. I would tell her that the kids need a normal routine and fun in their lives and you keep going up there and spending every weekend in a hospital. I would try and guilt her into not going.
Have you realised that your objections were passive-aggressive? That is, even when you were controlling her (quite meanly, as you say) - you did not do it assertively? You did it sideways, manipulatively and without clarity. In fact, clarity looks like a quality sorely lacking in the both of you.

I believe you're very capable of maintaing clarity - and assertiveness - in all of your communications now :) Your counsellor will help. Give it a go, please!

I feel you'd be quite justified in expressing concern about her secrecy around the relationship with the other woman. If you hope to go forward in any helpful way as a family, you do need clarity between you. Likewise, it's impossible to plan a calm separation - in two weeks' time! - when the goalposts keep moving. Arrange to meet with a family mediation lawyer if you have to, but please make sure your wife understands she cannot keep pushing & pulling you around like this.

I appreciate that she's going through a very distressing phase of her life - and do feel she deserves sympathy - however, she is behaving like a child in a tantrum, and one of you needs to be the grown-up here.

Confused, you might lose her to her strange friend ... for a while, or forever; that depends so much on how all of you progress from here. You, meanwhile, have your own interesting life to live and your children to look after. I really feel you must clarify your responsibilites and their limits.

This will be quite a test of your new, un-controlling, life skills! Accept responsibility. Set boundaries. Realise not everything is under your control, and stick to a fair plan. Good luck.

AG x

ps: Just seen the other fabulous replies above :) You're certainly well supported, Confused. You can do this! Go!

[confused555]

Thank you all for your encouragement and support. I understand my wife’s eyes have a lot of pain filtering my actions I only wish my wife could see my growth as positive. You are helping me feel a lot better about me.

Clockwork,
We end up talking from time to time, and I find myself repeating things about how I am working on myself and stuff like that. I will work on stopping the talk and start walking the walk.

I started going to church every week right after this whole thing started. The first week the sermon seemed to be written just for me. It really pulled me closer to God. My wife went the first few weeks, but has stopped going. She says me going makes her angry because she wanted to go before but I would drag my feet. In the past I would sleep in and if she went without me I would ask her why she did not wake me. If she did wake me I would go but not enthusiastically so she said she stopped trying because it was to big of a battle. I admit this is true. I wanted to go, but I did not want to sacrifice sleeping in. When she went without me I felt guilty and put that on her. Now she resents me going and I usually get a cold shoulder and hateful comments the rest of the day. To me it’s kind of funny because she is treating me worse for going to church than I ever did her, and she was mad at me for doing it to her. I have been tempted to say something, but can’t see the “loving” in that so I just grin and bear it.

AG,
You mention my wife is behaving like a child in a tantrum. What do I need to do to be the grown up? Do you think I handled the argument I described earlier in an appropriate way. I have been second guessing my comments all day.

I rarely say “NO” I say stuff like I don’t think this is appropriate. I did apologize to her this morning after she said I was being controlling about saying “So you don’t want me to go to the movies with you”

I realize that my comments were passive aggressive. I used that to control rather than the violence and hurtful words my father used. The “is it loving” is helping me to monitor the comments I make.




Has anyone read the “Stop the Divorce” book? In the summary it says to avoid confrontation by agreeing. Anyone have any positive or negative comments on the book?

[clockwork orange]

Hi Confused

Not read the book, but it seems to me that just agreeing to avoid confrontation isn't right. I think a better way is to acknowledge there is an issue and agree a time a couple of days later to discuss it. Important to move past that heat of the moment destructive emotion before discussing it. And then confront the issue together rather that each other over the issue. A picture comes to mind of an ugly mess on the kitchen table. We can sit opposite each other and push the mess one side to the other between us, or we can sit on the same side of the table and push the mess off it together. But we can't just agree to leave it sitting on the table to avoid the confrontation.

[Jenn]

I wholeheartedly agree with Clockwork Orange... Avoiding confrontation is just pushing aside issues that you are going to have to deal with down the road anyway; and it creates deep-seated resentment.

So now I am going to go and take my own advice....

[confused555]

Here is the web page for the book. http://www.stopyourdivorce.com/

I guess I did not really sum it up well. Its not so much about avoiding confrontation as it is not arguring with the other persons feelings, or trying to push forgiveness. He makes some good points on the website.

[Ageing Grace]

Hi, Confused. Thanks for your reply.

AG,
You mention my wife is behaving like a child in a tantrum. What do I need to do to be the grown up? Do you think I handled the argument I described earlier in an appropriate way. I have been second guessing my comments all day.

I rarely say “NO” I say stuff like I don’t think this is appropriate. I did apologize to her this morning after she said I was being controlling about saying “So you don’t want me to go to the movies with you”

I realize that my comments were passive aggressive. I used that to control rather than the violence and hurtful words my father used. The “is it loving” is helping me to monitor the comments I make.

From your account of today's argument, it looks like the two of you are slowly learning to negotiate more honestly with each other. It's very interesting!

You were right to apologise for your remark. Plus, she was right to admit she would have done better to say what she wanted outright. This is very okay, you both need practice ...

"I don't think this is appropriate" may be one of your sideways criticisms, Confused! Either you are talking about real appropriateness - for example, age-appropriate entertainment for the kids; the wrong outfit for an interview - or you're making a judgement that was not requested. How about saying what you mean?

I agree with the others that acting compliant for the sake of a quiet life will only build up trouble & resentment.

** Oh, OK, just seen your post above. Yeah, you can't tell another person their feelings are wrong - or what to feel. Feelings are just feelings! To be loving implies respect: everyone's feelings are valid & deserve respect. Always acting upon feelings, though, is neither respectful nor intelligent.

Hope that made sense.

Cheers,
AG

[confused555]

AG,

Thanks again for your insight. I wish we could go to marriage counseling and we could both learn how to have an argument. It’s something neither of us knows how to do.

Do you remember her trip to take her older friend over the texting mans house to keep the drunken friend from driving. My comment that night was. “I just don’t think it is appropriate for you to go over to his house in the middle of the night. Her reaction was it’s not the middle of the night its 9:00. I said “I don’t think it’s appropriate to go over to his house at any time.” That is when she got real upset and said I don’t trust her. My response was we both need to rebuild our trust. I think the next day was the first day she went to look at apartments.

[Ageing Grace]

Actually I think you are both learning how to put your views across! This essential life skill is often learned late (some never learn) so don't beat yourselves up about it, just keep practising.

“I don’t think it’s appropriate to go over to his house at any time.” ... That wasn't a rational statement, and it does imply a lack of trust. It's not inappropriate to visit someone's house at 9pm, Confused. Whatever the truth of the matter and whatever you thought about her motive - I think you will find yourself less confused as you learn to communicate more accurately.


I had a long conversation, this evening, with a friend whose father-in-law has just died from cancer. Both her parents are still alive, and she couldn't really see why I felt she should put up with her husband's diminished attention while he comes to terms with what's happened. It reminded me of you.

I disliked my father intensely but his death overturned my internal world. For better or worse, the man was a major feature in my life. He shaped me, after all. Parents are lynchpins of our identity. When they die, it disrupts our understanding of who we are. It's hard to describe to someone who hasn't yet experienced it.

If Dad had died of an illness, I would have wanted to visit him as much as possible. Despite our bad relationship, I cared about him.

The death of a loved and loving father would have been even more internally shocking. To know that my partner had tried to prevent me seeing him during his final months - and then to be faced with the permanence; the fact there would be no more visits, ever - would be extremely hard to bear. I'd feel helplessly alone; lost ... and would certainly grab any solace & understanding with both hands. My partner? What solace could I hope for from him, who had robbed me of my final precious hours with my father?

I hope you see why I'm telling you this.

AG

[1aokgal]

Confused555...

You are not separated but still under the same roof. Quite cheeky of this woman to dictate to you that she expects YOU to stay home while she takes the kids to a movie without you. Now if you had said you needed to work on something at home or chores that needed to be done..that is a different thing. I would tell her point blank that you won't wrestle over your own children like two dogs over a bone now or ever.

While the children are under your roof you will accompany them. When she has her custody days in future, she can do what she wants.

Of course, the timing of the apartment was AFTER you spoiled the rendevous with the friend. She wasn't able to make it out that evening even with the story about helping her pal because she drank too much. Maybe she did drink too much as her marriage is in risk as well. Maybe it wasn't true and that was the story to go and get out with her... without you for the evening. You spoiled that outing.

She realizes she needs a cleared playing field without complications...YOU. All that insecurity about the lease or changing her mind perhaps in future is her..wondering if she can hold it all up without your money to do it. She has not supported herself in the past, has she? She does not make enough income to make it fly and that "friend" might prove to be unreliable.

The truth is she sees that she can have both ends..the friend and freedom to see her and you, to come back to, if it doesn't work out. I would not argue with this woman if I were you. I would clam up or tell her simply that you don' intend to kiss her behind... so best she cuts her tantrums. Mr. Nice Guy is not going to get the bacon here.

She has to get it that when the door shuts behind her in her grand plan that you are not going to put out the welcome mat for her home visits to you. She gets parental rights with the kids, but that should not include you being pulled around by her whims.

You have your insecurity and she fed on it. They say,"What you fear most, you cause to happen." This is why many have cheating mates. Sometimes all the suspicion or negative comments to question every moment generally pushes someone toward what is feared. In this case, I think you find she is uncomfortable that you go to church because she is guilty of committing a terrible deception. I think the fact she is drawing into herself a same sex secret relationship is far outside her Christian teachings as a way to live and she knows it. She may have guilt about you and her family, as well she should.

She is drawn into a web by the OW who has used her unhappiness and insecurity to put her in danger of losing everything.

You need to weigh out the full scene that the mother of your children is leading a double life. She lied, like a trooper, to see this woman the night she claimed the OW was drunk and needed her help. You fell for the story, but wanted to drive her there as you worried about the guy. I bet she almost fell apart on that one because she let you think this way rather than see you learn the real truth. You have to be angry at this?

If this woman makes good on her exit plan I think you should bury her in nasty ways to make sure she fails financially to hold it up by refusing to augment any of her lifestyle. The good friend won't want to carry so much and your wife has had YOU to pull her wagon and fears taking it all on her own shoulders. It is no wonder you get the mixed signals as she is so unsure she can make it without you hence she is now being nicer as if the two of you are all agreed that whatever she wants, you support.

Take care for your children as they are in the middleof all this conflict. Don't be confused on this. I think you are better off to let her go and realize you are a pretty good guy and don't need someone who can play act about her true feelings. Spend a lot of time with the kids.

When the door shuts behind her...Get your locks changed and make sure she knows you will go on without holding her up in her new lifestyle. In fact, you get a good solicitor and make it difficult for her in any way you can. No violence now...just don't be a pushover who gets led down her path. I don't think she knows a good man if she fell over one.

Congratulations on positive changes but don't let her bamboozle you to the real scene and don't make it easy for her choices. Get soem good supportive counselling and yes, there is life after divorce.
Many go on to love and marry again and don't end up being miserable the next time around.

Weigh it out! Confused 555, maybe it is time you choose to be happy. She sounds like a perfect dreg . The Lord did not intend you repeat your childhood in a miserable unhappy union. It might be time to heal and let it go. Say, "Here Sweetie, I will help yopu carry out your bags."

Then go SLAM that door!

[confused555]

AG,
Thanks for helping me to see a different point of view on the late night house visit. I know I have a hang-up with it because he was the man that she had just texted 60 times in 2 days the previous week and admitted to an emotional affair with. In my mind she should avoid all possibility of contact with him, but my wife says she will still have to see him because he will be around when she sees his mom (the older lady). I can also now see the pain I exacerbated for my wife during her fathers final months. I have no excuse for it, and honestly can’t believe I did that to someone I love so much. I know that is something she will never forgive me for.


And more ramblings by a confused man…

I hope this makes sense… My wife got really mad last night. One of her friends call her “A” told friend “B” that she was acting strangely and seemed to be spending a lot of time with the older lady and her son and did not seem to care about our kids anymore. My wife never really talks to friends “A” or “B” anymore, but friend “B” told my wife this information. My wife was very upset with “A” and went on and on telling me about it and my wife said I am surprised that “A” did not say something to me. I admitted to my wife I had asked “A” if she had any idea what was going on with my wife and that “A” had told me the same story that my wife had heard from “B” My wife lost it. She said it was over. She went off about how she thought I was changing, but obviously I had not. She was mad because she did not think I believed what she was telling me and so I asked someone else. She felt like it was an attack on her that I asked someone else a question about her. She said why didn’t you ask me. I told her I had, but all she gave me was I don’t knows. She thought it was another way of saying I don’t care what you are saying I want to here what I want to here. That’s not how I meant it at all, but of course me saying that did not do anything. It was late at night and she packed some clothes and left by herself. That was Friday night. She mentioned coming to see or get the kids today (Saturday), but I’ll I got was a text message around 5pm that asked what are you and the kids doing. I replied that we were at the park what are you doing, and never got a response.

She does not know this, but I have been talking to her sister. Her sister has been the one initiating it. Her sister really wants to help us work things out. She has provided me with how my wife truly feels, things my wife has never told me. A lot of this helps me to understand my wifes anger and frustration. Her sister has told me things my wife has said to her that my wife has never said to me. One of them was her saying I refused to sign something for her to get an apartment. I was in shock when her sister told me that, because I never refused. I remember my wife saying something about needing to get something signed, but her older lady friend already said she would sign it. I didn’t even ask what it was about or think much of it. So the next time my wife said something about the older lady singing something jumped in and I offered to sign it. I know I should be reading between the lines and figuring this out on my own, but I am a relationship idiot. That is what got me in this situation. I know that is probably not the best way to get my information, but I need someone telling me what my wife is really thinking, because she is truly not saying things to me. I think she is being so passive / codependent that she is afraid to come out and tell me and ask me things because she does not want to make me sad or angry.

I know I have controlling tendencies so I have to double check my motivations and why I do certain things. I really feel like I was asking her friend (and her sister) so I could better save our marriage out of love. Is what I did wrong? Should I stop talking to her sister? Her family is truly concerned for her because for the most part she won’t talk to them either. They call me sometimes to ask if she is ok because she won’t return their calls.

[Ageing Grace]

Hmmm. Thanks for your reply, Confused.

She thinks you, her friends and family are talking about he behind her back. And she's right, you are.

She thinks you're all plotting to interefere with her choices. She's wrong, you're not.

She wants you all to validate her choices: to leave you, get this flat, conduct her relationship with the other woman and/or her son. Nobody is validating her in this (except the OW), so she's furious ... and has decided everyone is, therefore, against her.

Firstly there is the question of honesty & directness. I don't think you should hide your conversations about her. You have the right to discuss what you wish, with whomever you choose! When she finds out, she will - understandably - be angry about the secrecy. In a spirit of openness, I feel you should let your wife know that you talk to her friends and her sister. And leave it at that.

Be careful NOT to say you're talking because you're worried about her. It's a common enough thing to say, but it is in fact manipulative. You are worried about her - say so if you wish, but take ownership of your own thoughts: avoid 'owning' her sister's feelings. It's perfectly natural that people will discuss the disruption going on your marriage, whether she likes it or not. If she wants to know their thoughts for herself, she'll have to talk to them.

Secondly, the matter of the document that needs signing. Is this to guarantee the rent, by any chance? Although I'm sure you wouldn't want to enable your wife's setting up home this way, you might prefer not to hand the responsibility over to the other woman. Up to you ... If it's just a character reference, then it's not much of an issue. I'm surprised you didn't take any interest in the paperwork needed for her move!

Finally - if you haven't specifically and honestly apologised for your unsupportive attitude over her father's illness, I strongly recommend you do. Nothing you can do will give her back those lost hours, but is there some other way you can show you appreciate her loss? Can you make a special trip, with the kids, to honour his grave or memory? Mum's boyfriend offered to have a bench set up, in my Dad's memory, at a favourite beauty spot. His situation wasn't like yours; I'm just trying to give you ideas (the bench is still there, we've all visited it several times).

I really hope this works out for you, Confused. There's a rocky road ahead. One thing's certain: your improved consideration, communication and (I hope) assertiveness will lead to greater fulfilment in your future.

Wishing you the best,
AG

[confused555]

AG,

Thank you again for that food for thought. You are exactly right on the talking to other people. When this whole thing first happened I was confused (It appears to have stayed that way) and she had confided in her sister all the problems in our relationship. We were talking and I had asked if she minded if I spoke to her sister in hopes of better understanding. She was very enthusiastic about it and said yes. I think because it shows effort on my part. When me and the sister talked the first time the sister was telling me what my wife was feeling and it helped. My wife also asked me to talk to her mom. I did that to and her mom supported her original feelings. Then the following week when my wife was again with her family they begin to think the issues she was upset with me begin to be more and more “off the wall”. I again asked if I could speak to her sister and she said yes. Her sister and I talked and now the sister begin to see that I was working on myself, and was making progress, but my wife was coming up with more and more wrongs. My wife and her sister begin to disagree about things. Her sister started doubting what was happening to my wife. Then one day her sister was trying to get a hold of my wife to get her to help with her mom. My wife did not answer and said that the voicemail she left was a guilt trip and she just did not have time to deal with that right now. Her sister now frustrated because my wife would not return her calls or help out with her mother called me to give my wife a message. It was something like your mom is very sick and throwing up and she needs 24 hour care. Can you please come up on Saturday and help out. I relayed the message, but my wife was furious that the sister contacted me. She got mad at me and her sister. Her sister and I did not speak to each other for a few weeks. Then one night in a desperate attempt to contact someone to talk about what was happening I called her sister. She and I both are hiding our conversations from my wife. I know it’s not the right thing to do, but my wife is not responding the “right way”. If I were to admit it to her she would turn even more on her sister and me. I feel I have no choice but to keep our discussions hidden from my wife.

The document was basically to say I would pay my wife a certain amount every month so she could afford to stay there. Once I saw it I knew it was important that I sign it rather than the OW, but before that I had no idea what it was. Your right I should have been listening better when she first said it, but I was in a great deal of shock that she had signed a leased.

I have apologized in a letter I wrote to my wife and read to her for being negative about her taking the kids to the hospital to see her dad as well as several other things I had handled inappropriately. I tried to make plans to take her to the Vietnam memorial as a way to honor her dad (he was a long time marine who served several times in Vietnam) She was originally for it, but then started the job and did not want to get away. I think I will get with her mom about buy a tombstone for her dad, or come up with another idea. His grave does not have one yet, and I mentioned getting one but she said she would wait to see if her mom was going to do it. Should I apologize every time she brings it up?

She came to get the kids today to take them to the park. At first she was very mean about everything The kids look tired how late did you keep them up. (My daughter started crying about something shortly after my wife got home) Did you go to early church (yes) it’s no wonder they are tired. The funny thing is I got them to bed on time and they woke up before me. They got more sleep than they usually do. That is why we went to early church. Then my son told her that I had bought them each a small toy while shopping, and she said well that’s your dad he can afford to do stuff like that for you. He is not on a budget. I just listened and then she said you’re mad at me because I was not talking to her. I said no I was just trying to give you space. After a while she calmed a bit and said she was really angry the other night and before that she was unsure, but now she wanted a divorce.

The last 48 hours I have been thinking about my happiness, and that is what I am focusing on right now. I think I am getting better at being happy independent of the situation with my wife. Right now I think that is the best thing for me to focus on. Maybe someday I can change my username.

Thank you all for your continued support and advice. I appreciate all of it.

[1aokgal]

Hi Confused555,

We all hope you can one day change your name to perhaps, Healing555.
Just take it one day at a time.
HUGS

[confused555]

It is becoming very difficult for me. I am maintaining my composure and my patience on the outside, but on the inside I am falling apart. I am filled with fear inside and can’t make it go away. She has becoming very distant. Any question or comment or action is scrutinized.

When she left two weekends ago (Friday night to Sunday noon) she came back and criticized me for what I told the kids. They had asked where she was and I told them I though she was at the older ladies house. Apparently my son had asked her why she was gone all weekend, and where she was. This upset her because she wanted me to tell them we got into a fight and that is why she left. She did not want to look like she was the bad guy. I am trying to paint her as positively as I can for the kids, but they don’t understand why she is gone all the time.

Another time she told me how unfair it was that I got to spend all the time with the kids. I told her she was welcome to take them with her when she went, but she chooses not to. That just made her mad. She said I was making her look like the bad guy. She left again this past Saturday to go to the older ladies house for the afternoon. We were not fighting or anything she said she was just going to watch movies. Our son asked if he could go and she said no she wanted to spend time with her alone. When I put the kids to bed she was still not back. The kids asked and I told them I thought she would be home later. She never came home or called. Sunday around 2:00PM she came home. The kids and I were playing and they never even acknowledged her. Our 5 year old actually called her by her first name (that’s not normal for her) She was angry with me wanting to know what I told the kids. I told her that I had not said anything negative about her. I told her they asked me why she did not come home Saturday night, and I told them you must have spent the night with the older lady. She even said something like well next weekend I’ll take the kids so you can see what it feels like. I did not say anything, but was extremely confused. Then yesterday she tells me she wants to go out of town shopping this Saturday. I did not ask if she was going to take the kids, but I highly doubt she will.

We are having her family down for Thanksgiving and I was planning on cleaning the house on Saturday and Sunday. I want the dinner to be everything she wants, but when I asked her questions about this or that she just says I don’t know. I tried the question a few days later as describe what the day would be like if everything went perfect. She told me she does not care about Thanksgiving at all the only person she cared about is dead (her dad).

My son is having a very difficult time with everything. She is being negative to him and he thinks she hates him. I tell him that she really does love him, but she is angry at me and for her dad passing right now. I tell him I love him and let him talk about anything he wants. He has a lot of questions about her behavior and I just tell him he needs to ask her about these things because I don’t have the answer. He told me she just gets mad when he asks her. My counselor suggested some exercises (painting drawing making faces and screaming) to help them get their feelings out. I have been doing that with both of them and it seems to help them work through their sad feelings.

She is seeing a counselor, but I don’t think it is helping her. She told me the counselor does not think she is having any problems with the grieving process, and that she is not depressed. Her counseling appointments are now once every two weeks.

I don’t think there is anything I can do or say to her about the kids. Putting my foot down or even expressing my feelings almost always results in a disagreement. She passes every thing I say or do through a “is it controlling” filter. Almost any statement can be turned into a controlling statement if you look for it. When in actuality it’s the persons motives that need the questioned not the statement itself. Anything I say or do won’t help the issue. She is very angry it is dominating every relationship she has. She had abandoned her old friends and family. He mom is dying of cancer and she has not called or seen her in 4 weeks. Normally she would talk to her at least once / week. She even skipped a family event because she was too “busy” to attend.

I am working on me right now. I am trying to get fear out of my heart. I don’t know how to do it. I joined a celebrate recovery group and it has been helping. However some days all I think about it the relationship. I am so afraid I am going to loose her. The logical side in me says “accept the things I can not change”, but the emotional side of me can’t make it happen. I have read countless stories on here and other sites were people are struggling with the same acceptance. I know it takes time, but it sure hurts now. I never thought I would be in a one sided relationship, but here I am and I want so badly for it to all work out.

Thank you all for your support and advice.

[Jenn]

Wow, she is saying that you are making her look bad? I don't think she needs help in that department.

I remember being five years old and my dad used to be very upset (crying) because my mom wouldn't come home on the weekend. It was such a confusing and sad time in my life. There were so many inconsistencies in my life at that time and I never forgot it.

I really hear that you don't want to lose her; but do you think it might be best for everyone if she were to move out so you can work things out from a distance? It might be easier than having to make excuses for her all the time to the kids and coming off as the bad guy. Might help you put things into persepective a little better as well, without having to deal with the coming and going....

I hope I'm not out of line suggesting it....

[Ageing Grace]

Hi, Confused. From where I'm sitting, Jenn's suggestion seems like the only logical one.

Trying to live half at home, half somewhere else; to half be a parent; half a wife ... simply isn't viable. It's deeply unfair to you and, most of all, to your children. The fact that she hasn't even tried to explain her absences to the kids speaks volumes about her current level of concern for them. She's asking you to cover for her - without offering any reasons why you should do it, nor even what her cover story is! Completely absurd.

Her poor mother, too! Your wife seems desperately confused - but hers is a journey she has chosen to make alone (or without you, anyway). There's really nothing you can do about it. I agree it's essential to protect your family life, as far as possible, by refusing to play along. Plenty of people here can share the benefit of their experiences when it comes to laying out sensible ground rules, and remaining reasonable in the face of all unreason.

I hope she will soon come to her senses, which she seems to have lost - right now, however, you can't carry on like this. Have you spoken to the children's tutors? The instability at home may be affecting their behaviour at school by now.

The logical side in me says “accept the things I can not change”, but the emotional side of me can’t make it happen.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

You're not lacking in emotional strength, Confused55, you're lacking that little bit of wisdom at the end ... very normal in those who've always tried to control everything. That's why the prayer comes with another piece of advice: Hand it over to God.

Try it! It helps a lot, I promise ...

Sending you my good wishes,
AG

[Ageing Grace]

Hello again :o

This is by way of a postscript. I still feel very sad for your wife. From what you've written, I think she's trying to reject the fact of her father's death ... and can only do that by denying the facts of all her other relationships. This is similar to what people mean when they say the loss of someone they loved made them feel "they could never trust anyone again". The fear of further loss leads them them to feel that love is, itself, unsafe.

Such back-to-front reasoning is, of course, excruciating for your children, who deserve unconditional love, and extremely painful for everyone else - including your wife.

As such, it will no doubt be helpful for her to know you're 'there' in the background. The background has to be the operative word, however! Her crisis is one she must go through in her own way. While her distress may well explain the way she's treating you and the kids, it does not make it all right. Not at all.

I feel sorry for her. But I feel you need to follow a path that protects your mental health and that of your children. If she comes out of this with some serenity of her own - and if you feel like helping her at that time - all well and good. That's an issue to be dealt with when, and if, it happens. You can't make it happen for her.

Aim for your own serenity, Confused.

[confused555]

Jenn,

I agree the separation might bring some peace for both us. I understand in our current situation staying together is not helpful. I don’t want to see her go, but I don’t want to stop her if she wants to go.

AG,
The teachers for both our kids know. My son has many questions for me every day. I have been talking with a counselor on how to best support him during this time. The counselors suggestions have proved to be very useful.

I am a believer, and realize that God is in control (sort of). I still feel like my actions will have an impact on how things turn out. For example, once she moves out if I call too much or too little it will send the wrong message. Does that make sense or am I overcomplicating things?

Also, what do you mean by being there in the background. I am a guy, and not very good at understanding what my wife wants (hence my situation). So can you be specific about how to be there in the background.

I feel sorry for her also. I can see the pain when she opens up to me. The pain and anger are living and building inside her.

Thanks for the encouragement.

[Ageing Grace]

I am a guy, ... So can you be specific about how to be there in the background..

Lol, Confused, you are a guy - overcomplicating the statement! :cool:

I simply meant stuff like working out a plan that will afford you & your kids the best chance of regaining some stability, accepting that she has her own stuff to do, and TELLING her you appreciate she's having a hard time.

Tell her you're available to discuss anything (including the Meaning Of Life, etc ;) ) as long as she phones to arrange a suitable time & place with you beforehand. Tell her what you're doing to assure a reasonable level of stability for your children, and explain you need this, too, because you're doing your best for your family. Let her know it's not fair on the kids to change plans at short notice; say it's fine for her to reduce her level of contact for a while if she needs to.

Keep explaining that you understand she needs to explore her own thing. Keep explaining, also, that your family needs stability, and boundaries have to be set to afford it. Your boundaries may be open to discussion - now and in the future - but make sure you set them and keep them!

This is alarmingly similar to what you do when letting teenage children go. My wisest friend calls it "giving them wings". Your wife is acting - as near as possible, for a married woman with children - like an experimental teenager. Whilst you are minded to support her, I suspect this is the model that will be most helpful.

Remember that you are not her parent; your actual children need you for that. Give her wings, if you like, and assure her safe landings.

Remember the fledglings only learn how to use their wings when they're pushed out of the nest! So, push your wife :)

It sounds like you have a great counsellor there, Confused55. If s/he disagrees with any of this, I'd advise you to give preference to your counsel. If my 'teenager' analogy chimes with what they're saying, maybe all these words will help ...

Over to you. Sorry for lengthy reply!

AG

[confused555]

Ag,

Thank you very much for the suggestions. I agree with you that she is trying out her wings like a teenager. She has dropped all responsibilities and gets angry when I “take things over”. I only do them because she is not there not because I want to take them over.

I know we need to have the separation details worked out. I did try that before when she first signed the lease and I’ll I got was I don’t knows. I hesitate to setup the boundaries for fear of being accused of being controlling. I guess I am going to have to do it tell her I am doing it for the sake of the children’s stability and let her emotions go where she takes them.

[Jenn]

You have to take control of the situation and if she thinks that is controlling, then so be it.

[Ageing Grace]

Yep. It's tricky for you. As you HAVE been controlling/manipulative - and are busy giving that up - negotiation between you & your wife is full of inevitable potholes.

From your own point of view, Confused, I think the best you can do is to evaluate your motives before making potentially controversial remarks. I realise you're already doing that - just by way of a reminder ;) And then evaluate hers. One of the most precious side-effects of therapy (when it works, as it is doing for you) is the insight you gain into other people's thought processes.

This, in itself, should be enough to keep you on a fairly steady course through the negotiations to come. With the support of your counsellor, I think you will be able to impose boundaries where necessary, reasonably explain your reasoning, and choose immunity to her 'button presses' (like calling you controlling).

From your rather inspiring posts, I suspect you already have all the resources you need to make these changes. Should you lack the courage, maybe you could look for a family lawyer who is trained in mediation. This type of mediation is nothing to do with relationship management; it's meant to facilitate practical arrangements between couples who have split up. It comes in useful when you need a delusional partner to take a quick reality check!

Sending you good wishes. You can do it.
AG

[hadan]

Maybe giving her the guidelines and asking her to think about/pray over them until the end of the weekend will make her feel more empowered and in control.

There was nothing inherently wrong with sharing the list with her and asking her for her thoughts, but it sounds like asking for answers right away made her feel like you were trying to control her/the situation. You could ask her if she would be willing to give you her thoughts on these matters by the end of the weekend - ask her to pick a time to discuss it again - so that she has some time to let it sink in and figure out where she is at with this stuff.

How does she normally handle stress? Is she a flight or fight person? It sounds like any indication of confrontation makes her go into "flight" mode. I know that makes it more frustrating for you when you're looking for answers. But, this isn't going to be fixed overnight - so it is going to prove to be a good exercise in patience for you.



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