I give up

[hubby12]

Please pardon the long post
We were married in 1973 and we had an active sex life at first but within a year it had dwindled to almost nothing. We had our first son and then we never got back into regular sex. I would complain and say it has been "this long " and she would give in at some point but without enthusiasm and I felt like I was raping her . It wasn't good for me or her so we struggled along for seven years like this and then with 3 babies at home she went to work. Soon after she took up with a guy she met at work and started an affair. She left me and the kids for a few months until her relationship with the other guy soured and came home. We then went a year with no sex. Finally we had sex a few times and she conceived our fourth child. Again no sex for quite some time and then we got pregnant again with our fifth. After this we at her wish quit sleeping in the same room and that was it until about five years ago when I caught her having phone sex with some young guy and then discovered that she had been having loads of internet sex and perhaps a few brief affairs in real life. She refused to tell me exactly what was going on and would lie about whether it was still going on and such. The only thing I could get from her is that she "never" enjoyed sex with me and she is a sexual being and we can never have sex again. She has been true to her word and for the last 22 years there has been no sex. I think she has given up all of her extra-marital stuff but we are left with the shell of a marriage. I cry often and every day I wish that God would take me home. This is no way to live. My life has been a total farce and I just wish I wouldn't have wasted it in such a foolish manner. I still love her and as funny as it may seem she loves me too. I promised God I would take care of her till death do us part I just wish God would hurry up already and let me out of this. She is the love of my life. I suppose it doesn't speak well of my life. But at least I'm a man of my word. Just so you know I have always been a good and considerate husband and lover. I have been a good provider and affectionate person. We don't touch anymore not even to brush by as we go about our day. Now I'm crying again.
Any words or prayers would be helpful
Thanks

[Raymond]

That's very sad Hubby. It seems like your wife was committing mental adultery with others which would have been a big factor in your sex life. I think she had or has a real problem. How can God bless her unfaithfulness? Does she find stolen waters sweeter? She doesn't sound like a christian to me. Sexual faithfulness is essential for fireworks in the bedroom.

The bedroom side can be learned by openess and honesty and talking it through. I find that it is a mixture of doing what switches the other on and being honest as to what switches you on. In the end it all mixes together and takes on the personality of who you both are sexually and we are all different.

It is not too late to learn but I think your wife has to be faithful to you only for it to blossom.

Raymond

[hubby12]

Thanks for your rely Raymond
As I wrote we don't talk about sex anymore and as far as openness and honesty goes I suppose there isn't any left. If I even bring it up it just turns into a fight and she says " I told you if you want sex then get a divorce because I will never have sex with you" and that's the end of it. Then we walk around angry for a few weeks and settle back into nothingness. She believes she is seeking God in her life and doesn't realize that the systematic torture of her husband is not a Christian virtue. It's not like it is a new thing. It has been this way for many years. She doesn't see anything wrong, she won't read a book or go to counseling because to her there's nothing wrong with the way things are. The way I see it she thinks sex is filthy and if I want to have sex with her there's something wrong with me. The fact that she wants sex makes her disgusted with herself and she does not want to think of me that way so me not being a disgusting person I am not a candidate for sex. Yes I know this is twisted but form all I can learn ( and it's not much) this is how she thinks. Her sexual taste has always been with young and non-Christian men and always done in secret in a shameful way. It seems to be the only way that it is "acceptable" to her if you get my meaning.
Hubby

[Raymond]

Hi hubby I will have to think about my answers as I am tired from swimming just now.

I suspect your wife got the idea that sex was dirty from her childhood somewhere. Has she had any catholic influence? The bible obviously declares sex pure in marriage and something to be enjoyed and not something to defraud the other of.

Theres a lot about sexless marriages on here but I don't know if any of it will be helpful. You don't want resignation. You want answers.

http://www.themarriagebed.com/ This site may be helpful and there is a section and forum about sexless marriage. Some think it is too much about sex but when you need specific answers it can be useful. Sex does need to be encouraged in marriage and not out of it.

It is sad that you find yourself in this situation but I would not stop praying. God is a prayer answering God. It seems you have grown weary but His arm is not shortened. He has the answers.

Raymond

[coachchris]

I simply want to encourage you with this letter. The situation is not about you although I am sure that is difficult to understand. From your posts I can tell you have remained faithful and devoted. This life is a mere second compared to eternity with our loving Father. I too am experiencing great pain over my marriage situation, however I am reminded daily of the other many blessings in my life. Please seek Him first...he will sustain you and you can experience a peace that is well beyond this world. I know these are just words but I can attest to this..He is walking with me through the most painful and difficult journey I have ever experienced. I don't have all the answers and I don't know what the future holds, but I do know the one who holds the future. God Bless.

[Raymond]

I don't think you can give up on this Hubby. Coachchris is right that heaven is a far better place but God wants us to work it out down here which we can do as the kingdom of heaven is within us if we have received christ.

Does your wife go to the same church as you? Are there opportunities to have confidential counseling over this? What is the rest of your relationship like? The non sexual part I mean.

Raymond

[hubby12]

Thanks for the replies guys
Coachcris, So sorry to hear you have such trouble in your life , I will pray for guidance for you. I am fully aware that God can give me peace over this and yet he chooses not to. If it were something he wanted me to just live with he would surely put my heart at rest and give comfort over this. But I don't think he wants it this way and I have to wrestle with this until I can find the will of God in all this mess.
Raymond, Yes we go to church together but Becky would consider it a cruel betrayal if I were to bring it up to the elders and somehow she would think I'm just tiring to humiliate her and make her look bad. Again she doesn't think anything is wrong.
As far as the rest of our life together it is kind like a brother sister thing or perhaps like I am married and she is married but not to each other ie we don't touch or sit together on the same piece of furniture or speak about anything too personal etc. We never touch including hugs , holding hands, or any other form of touching you could think of. We talk about the kids and grand kids and the garden. We are pretty well off and she doesn't worry about finance and I try to give her a good and pleasant life. She thanks God for all the blessings in her life but never thinks I had any part in it. I have been refused so often and for so many years it's hard to want to even bring it up. It seems like masochism whichever way I approach it ( ask and start a fight and feel totally rejected or don't ask and suffer in silence). We haven't slept in the same room for many years and not having someone to hold is just a blow in so many ways. If I were not married and so lonely it would be understandable and I would that God send me a wife but what can I do now? I just wait for my life to end because the thing that is meant to remind us that we are alive has died long ago and I live with its corps as a reminder everyday that I am alone here. Someday the Lord will make it plain to me just what this has been all about but it is enough to make one so very tiered. It's not like I could turn it off even if I wanted to. I wake everyday to find the same dog tearing at my heart. My children are raised. My work is done. I just want out of here. I smoke cigarettes I drive fast I never go to the doctor. One would think I should be gone by now. But no. Here I am and my old friend the hungry dog is still ripping at my heart and it never hurts less. I feel like Prometheus.
Hubby

[Raymond]

Thats no way to live Hubby. This is quite serious.

On that site I told you about there are two woman I know of who were like that. Through their husbands prayers they were changed completely around. They are like nyphomaniacs now in a nice way.

Actually when she committed adultery you had the right to divorce her scripturally. Would that have been an answer?

I would share confidentially with the elders about the problem. This has to come out so they can pray as well. Your needs are far greater now than her secrecy. Something needs to happen pretty fast. She is living in cloud cuckoo land it seems.

Raymond

[hubby12]

Raymond
Thanks again for the care you have given to my situation. Perhaps I can expound on my view from a spiritual standpoint. I know the scripture gives me an out and I did consider it for a time but at the same time I am commanded to love my wife like Christ loves the church. If every time I was unfaithful to God he divorced himself from me I would be condemned to hell many times over. I think having other gods in my life is surely a form of adultery and fornication. It may be ones work or sports , alcohol etc. So while in a perfect man this is permissible I have never approached perfection in my walk with God. If I have looked at a woman to lust after her then I am as guilty as my wife no? God gave my wife to me just like God gave Israel to his people and there has been nothing but trouble because of unfaithfulness. Should I like Adam say " it is the woman thou gravest me" No I think the heart of the problem is in me. If she was damaged in her childhood (I'm not sure this is the case) then it would seem to me that I have been entrusted with a fragile flower in need of special care and I have never been up to the task. It's me. I'm sure God never makes errors and I'm sure he gave me the perfect woman for my needs. I have just screwed it up somehow. So should I make a mess of the thing God has given me as a blessing and just throw it away when it becomes a burden through my own ineptness? Just to let you know how truly perverse I am I have thought of taking a lover from time to time. While I haven't done it, it just goes to show how my instinct is to throw a broken thing away and just go find a new one. The man is the head of the woman it is never the other way round. If I had led her on the path God had intended we would not find ourselves lost in the wilderness. I just get tiered. Looks to me like a job for a redeemer. There is just something I'm missing here. I find forgiveness hard to come by I feel wronged and angry. I fully realize I must have led us to this place but it just stinks. My outrage and indignation are misplaced but still I have them. If I could bring myself to truly repent of my sin in this maybe redemption could be possible but I feel like the party that has been wronged and although I know it is pride and folly I just can't seem to. A fake plea is worse than no plea at all in my book. I think it could be fixed but it would cost me my pride. A fair exchange but I just can't seem to actually do it. so I just want out.
So there you have it my new friend. The same old story. Looks like I am to be buried in the desert just outside the promised land. I can see it. I just can't surrender enough to get there.

I hope this helps you understand better.
Hubby

[Raymond]

Hubby you say you think it can be fixed but it will cost you your pride. What do you actually mean by that? That is hope for me. In what way would your pride be hurt. Humility is a virtue.

And by the way you have been put into the promised land by virtue of your faith in christ even though you may have to appropriate it in your soul area (mind, emotions and will). We are already seated with him in heavenly places that is in our spirit. The starting place has already been achieved by christ.

If you see what needs to be fixed just fix it regardless of pride. You seem to have a suicide wish before so surely fixing what you can fix is better than that?

Raymond

[hubby12]

Ok
Let's take this a piece at a time. When I say it would cost me my pride, I mean that if I could truly repent for my disobedience in the way I lead my family and acknowledge my fault in the situation I could then come before the Lord with clean hands and ask him to do something about it.
A short story to illustrate my point
Suppose you were appointed to a neighborhood beautification project . For all of your term you thought you were doing a good job. One Saturday your boss calls from your work and calls you on the carpet for some small problem at work and demands you come in and rectify it. So on your way out of the house in a huff your neighbor smiles at you and says "good morning". You (being in a foul mood) just brush by without saying a thing. upon returning home you discover your rose bushes uprooted and the front of your house strewn with manure. Your neighbor is standing in his yard with a smug look on his face and it is obvious just what has happened. For many years thereafter he treats you like a right bastard and spreads awful rumors about you having an arrogant and antisocial attitude. The situation seems intolerable and you pray about it often but still it remains unchanged. You don't even remember the slight to him and so have no idea just what's wrong. To you it seems as though he has just gone mad. Then a friend from church brings you a word of knowledge saying you should humble yourself before your neighbor and apologize to him for your sin before you come to the Lord for forgiveness. You are outraged at this and think to yourself "how can this be"? I have done nothing and for years he has made my life a living hell. I am the wronged party here. So you find you cannot find in yourself the "sin" for which you need to repent. After a while you just pray for forgiveness anyway thinking if you just go through the motions it will somehow cleanse you of whatever you did. To your surprise it doesn't have any effect. Now you're really outraged and even more angry.
God appointed you to a position of authority and you fell short. Still you can't find it in yourself to do what is required of you. You cannot judge your neighbor because you do not have clean hands. God does not want grudging acceptance he must have full abject and honest repentance and you cannot find a way to do this. So Do you move house and live in your sin forever? This is where I find myself.
As to the promised land it is the good marriage that God promised me so many years ago. I don't doubt my salvation.
And by the way, not taking prophylactic measures to protect ones health does not amount to suicide.
Hubby

[Raymond]

To go with your analogy it seems very unreasonable for this neighbour to hold a grudge for not greeting him/her as you were teken up at the time in sorting a work problem. If it had really caused all these problems you could just say sorry I didn't greet you had an emergency just then. Really though the fault is with the neighbour for taking offence over such a small thing. The problem is the neighbours because of his/her unreasonable attitude.

It reminds me of something which happened to my brother. He was driving a bus full of children and they stopped somewhere. Just there some Turkish men were swearing like mad and he asked them to please stop because of the children upon which they took real offence. Later he found his tyres were slashed (this is in London) and he mended them. Then it happened again. In the end he couldn't leave his van near his house.

Later on he was even beaten up in the street by them all over a petty event. This neighbour sounds a bit like that and suffers from bitterness and revenge over seemingly nothing. I can't see that you would have a great deal to repent of as the neighbour is taking offence unreasonably.

Raymond

[hubby12]

You've put your finger on the issue. Your sense of justice and proportion is offended by this. After all why should I the victim be at fault here. I mean I have done my best and while I haven't been perfect I certainly have done nothing that would warrant my suffering like this. My adulterous, cold, lying, heartless bitch wife is the one that should be under conviction. But alas it simply is not so. I for years have been cursing God for giving me such unruly sheep never considering that it is me ,the shepherd that is at fault. at the end of the day the behavior of the sheep it is totally the responsibility of the shepherd. Evidently you suffer from the same failing of pride that I do. It is difficult is it not? Let's take it from the Lord's standpoint. He gave me a wife . He cautioned me to love her like he has loved me. If I don't, bad things will surely happen. I fall short. bad things do happen. I really don't know what I could have done that would cause such a devastating reaction. I get outraged. She gets worse . I cry out to God for justice. He answers me. I am not satisfied with the fairness of the answer and become even more angry. While I realize in my heart this accomplishes nothing I just can't stop. Twenty two years! it's not fair. I hate her. Even if she was willing to have sex with me I would probably refuse out of spite. She should beg my forgiveness . And why would I want to have sex with a used up whore anyway. Her best years were spent in the beds of strangers and now that she is too old to attract any young and handsome studs she wants to become a good Christian woman. For years she gave it away to the worst sort of trashy man and now I'm supposed to be "grateful" if she is willing to grudgingly give me some even though she doesn't want to. I think not! So Raymond you see just what kind of a rebellious and unfaithful man I am. I just want out. The love of my life is a woman I can't forgive or love. I don't want anyone else. I am lost. So every day I am pleasant and kind. I provide for her physical needs and hope I die in my sleep. Leaving her wouldn't help. I would just pine for something that could never be. I think about this most every day and it sickens me.
Hubby

[hubby12]

If any Christian women read this thread would please give your perspective maybe it would help
Thanks
Hubby

[Raymond]

Why do you blame yourself for her behaviour? If you had been a better husband do you think none of this would have happened? You seem to hate her and then you turn against yourself. It is a bit confusing.

Nothing is ever too late to redeem. I once had to use scriptures like love your enemies in my marriage in the early days. I wasn't allowed to go to sleep. She did get help and even deliverance and is a wonderful wife to me now.

I think you have to forgive her and love her even if it's a case of loving your enemy. One has to start somewhere. As you do that with God's strength you are bound to see change. A lot of bad things have happened to you but they can work for good amazingly enough if you let them. Have you seen the movie Fireproof? There are some aspects in that film which might be helpful.

I don't think these things have happened because you are not perfect. Who is? I think you read too much into this. She obviously came into this marriage with a lot of this stuff. Are you responsible for changing her? It doesn't always work that way. What you can do is put away bitterness, pray for her and try to love her, that is if you mean to stay with her. Otherwise what is the point? If you have chosen to stay with her after all her adulteries then there is no point if you are not going to forgive her or love her. If she has not repented of this stuff to you then I think you have risked opening yourself up for betrayal and abuse when the substance of the marriage was missing.

Raymond

[hubby12]

The chance to be a happy young couple is gone and can't be redeemed. Monogamy is gone. The special gift of lovemaking with our husband or wife is gone even if it were to happen I would just be one of many and would never have the place I should. Respect is gone. Trust is gone. Most of my life is gone. If I were to lose a leg it might be possible to live a good with one leg but the loss could never be redeemed. I don't think I could ever be happy being lover number 32. It's too late to make it right. You say I could be happy with less but I just can't let it go. I morn for what could have been and something less is just something less. Apart from that how does one "forgive" someone who is not sorry? Sure she knows she has done wrong but she honestly thinks her sin is against God and not me. She never thinks how this had devastated me and thinks I should just get over it and leave her alone about the whole thing.
I give up

[Raymond]

Hubby it is never profitable to mourn about the past. You still have a future. Are we not told to be overcomers. Your problem is to reconcile the past. Bitterness wil hold you to the past and could destroy you. Personally I think you ought to have divorced her as soon as this adultery was happening where there was no repentance. As it is you chose to stay and there is no point in being bitter towards her if you are going to live with her. God can restore the years the locust has eaten however that works out.

It is true she cannot receive your forgiveness without her repentance nevertheless there should be a lack of bitterness in you and a forgiveness of her within yourself so to speak for your own sake. This can be played out fully where there is her full repentance.

She will be under conviction in her relationship with God and will have to get right over it with you also if she is ever to enjoy the fullness of his presence. Therefore you can encourage her relationship with God. Her conviction will be greater the nicer you are, but if she never repents she is living a total lie for one who professes to be a christian.

On another tack my wife has asked have you never explained to her what this has done and what it is doing to you even now?

Raymond

[1aokgal]

Dear Hubby12...

I see you turning on a open spit like a pig burning to a crisp over issues which are truly beyond your ability to change. It seems you spend a lot of your waking hours trying to analyze her behavior, which is distasteful and repugnant, and defies sane explanation.

It is sad to live day to day and feel life is hollow and all you do lacks purpose or meaning. You feel isolated and spurned and everything tastes like ashes. While you provide the basics of living it seems a just thing that you could at least have a partner who shares your years until death do you part who is more than a roomie.

I am sorry to see someone with a story like my own. There is a special despair one feels to see life pass and know it will likely never change. Others see a functional facade of a marriage but the truth is that two people just co-exist. After so many desperate years one can develop deep seated anger and cynicism and likely if the partner ever did make a decent overture we would likely reject that action. A spurned mate feels too much anger to be receptive and loving toward a torturer who dishes out a lot of attitude and hurt.
We would have to pay back for all that pain.

My husband is a good companion. We do things together when he is here and he likes to please and do token things for me. It is his compromise as he is not a husband. He is generous with gifts and tokens to replace affection, touch and caring in an intimate way. He cares nothing that I may be attractive to others or have opportunity to be with someone else. He is sure I am always here. I dislike him for that part because I think to take me for granted is hurtful and an insult. It is as though I have no value.

He is not with other women though I once told him it would be fine with me if he were because at least I would respect him for being a normal man. That was an anger remark and passed.

There were years I felt as you do..hopeless and defeated and lonely. Then I detached and began to see life as belonging to me and not to him. I became my own person with interests, friends and pursuits and do not include him in these things. I paint lovely pictures, have an internet business and two strong big dogs to train and show. I try to keep busy and think little of him. His job keeps him somewhere else most of the time which is good for me because it is easier when he is not here. We do share a very large bed.

He does put his arm around me or holds my hand and often tells me he loves me and does kind things. I no longer find him someone I want to be with physically as the rejections have been prolonged for years and my confidence is damaged. It is for that reason I probably stay faithful because I do have opportunity but I think I find men a bit diststeful at this point. The trust, and sensual desire has been blunted or lost. Maybe you understand that and experience this? If I knew he were repeatedly unfaithful, as in your situation I would divorce, no doubt on that.

Sometimes I desire and wish... but recoil in reality. I never thought anyone as confident and physical and feminine as I am would ever feel so diminished. It is a type of abuse we have experienced that wounds the spirit to the core. I don't like him for the treatment he has given me. I loved him absolutely...perhaps still do. It just will never live again.

Like you, time has passed. The years have gone by and hope lost. I wish you to think more about your own needs, happiness and interests. Take up a hobby, sport or interest that you love and make that a passion. Stop questioning what makes HER tick. Who cares! Stop rationalizing all this as if you are the master of your fate. The "she was given to you to lead, etc".... sorry...I don't see all that from the view you do. She had choice and made it. Maybe your choice should be to go on a great safari or trip and find who you are as if she died. (She did.)

Find your destiny apart from her. Yes, consider divorce if you have some years ahead.

If you think that is not possible, be where she is NOT. Quit taking all the responsibiltiy on your shoulders. You got unlucky! You got the short straw. Make the best you can of life whle you can.

You have my sympathy. You seem almost too intellectual to just throw in the towel and take your energy and invest it in something wonderful. Maybe in the "withholding" this is her way to punish you for being too controlling in other areas? Who knows why these people seem incapable to give or receive love. I think my husband deprives just because he can.

Your analogy of the job you were given is a good one but I think scripture cannot always explain the working of the human heart. Do you know if this woman had sexual abuse in her childhood and if that trauma could be part of what plays out here? She seems to lack innner components but we were attracted to the neediness in them at the beginning so maybe we are people who like order. Now they are in control. There are as many theories as one can imagine. It is all just painful and others Could never understand unless they experience it as well. Glad there is this place.

I wish you happiness.

[surrender2Christ]

I think you and your wife must speak a different love language than you and have completely different temperaments. This site has a test to find out your love language with your spouse if you can get her to take it. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdf It will help you understand what she really wants, and what she isnt getting from you , and vice versa. I do give you props, because I would have left by now if I were you.

[hubby12]

Raymond
What you say is probably true but somehow I just can't see it right now. Some things one just can't get past. If she had thrown herself on my mercy when these things happened I might have been able to forgive and try to put it behind me. But when I have spent my life in an attempt to be a good man and husband only to have my effort summarily dismissed as not worth consideration then it just sucks. At your urging I attempted to speak with her two days ago. It went like this. I asked her to sit by the pool for a moment with me. She sat about ten feet from me and asked me what the problem was. I said sometimes my life just seems empty and don't know just how much longer I can go on this way. She stood immediately and said "that's between you and God and I don't want any part in it". For the next two days she has acted as if I said nothing. As far as divorce goes, while I make a very good income even a very good income divided by two would never satisfy her needs and if you know anything about California divorce law you should know I would end up living like a pauper and she would get everything. Also I would never want to have my children think marriage is somehow disposable.
1AOK
I appreciate your sentiment and can understand your way of dealing with it. I really don't obsess about it much but you don't know me. Pleasing my wife is central to my being. It is how I'm made. I would much rather make others happy than do something for myself. I know it may sound sick but in large part I believe a good husband measures himself by the contentment of his wife. I cannot divorce myself from core intellectual concepts that are the underpinnings of my existence. It's simply who I am. I could no more go find a substitute for my wife than I could serve another God if my god somehow disappointed me. Please understand I am not in any way passing judgment on your life or what works for you but I can only do that which is in me.
Surrender
If she would be willing to take such a quiz there would be no need to do it, if you get my drift.
Thanks guy
Hubby

[Raymond]

It's not just between you and God Hubby. That is a very hypocritical thing to say. She is involved as it is to do with your relationship. I hope you got it accross what the situation is doing to you. It seems like you are rewarding her for her immorality and the witholding of herself from you.

Divorce is legitimate where there is unrepentant adultery and I am sure the courts would see it that way and not leave you a pauper. Money is a good servant but a bad master. I would not let that aspect control things. Naked you came in and naked you will go out.

It sounds like she has left you in herself but enjoys your provision. Until she finds repentance towards you this seems set to continue I fear. If you won't change it all you can do is build yourself up in God and seek his wisdom for the situation, but that may also mean getting good counsel, for in the multitude of counselors purposes are established.

Raymond

[Ageing Grace]

Hubby, you asked for perspectives from Christian women and I'm not a Christian, so you can stop reading me now if you like!

Despite my ungodly leanings, I wholeheartedly share Raymond's concern about, sympathy for and frustration with you. You're having a horrible time, you've been unfairly treated and you're reacting to it all most destructively. You're also a great writer, and very witty. So I hope your thread runs and runs :p

You say you're determined that god gave you this wife for a purpose. You say she is a sheep to your shepherd. Clearly, she's not the best sheep on the mountainside - so are you saying god gave you the mean-tempered sheep as a test of your shepherding skills? (Actually, all sheep are mean-tempered, but let's stick with the parable.)

The bible is full to the bookends with sheep parables. As I recall, no biblical shepherd was ever tasked with turning a bad sheep into a good one. All they are required to do with their sheep is not to lose them. That's a shepherd's job.

So, if god gave you your wife as he gave sheep to Aramaic shepherds, it was for you to clamber down any ravines she might fall into and bring her back up; protect her from predators; keep her alive. She is alive, fed, watered and housed. Therefore you are a good shepherd. You have not failed in the task you believe god gave you.

You've even resolved to continue these duties all your life, regardless of how many ravines she tumbles into. That makes you not just a good shepherd, but an outstandingly dedicated one. God must be polishing up a special gold crook for you right now!

I'm interested in your questions about why god lumbered you with such a tricky marriage. While it's tempting to dish out glib, god-related replies, I'd prefer to interpret his will as an expression of our inner knowledge (I believe that's allowable: we are all expressions of his will, and he is in us all).

Yes, we do choose our partners for their individual characteristics - and for how those characteristics chime with our own. Your wife is clearly a troubled soul. To find your own inner self disgusting, as she does, must be unbearable. Her desperation to not be disgusting - such that she tries to convince herself of god's approval, contrary to all she's been taught - I find utterly heart-rending. Sad little shags, in disgusting places with disgusting people, hardly constitute a pursuit of pleasure or fulfilment. It sounds more like punishment; self-inflicted at that. The poor, poor girl.

It's a no-brainer, then, why she chose you. You're her good shepherd. She damn well needs one, by the sound of it. She's not just falling down ravines, she's in an abyss and it's dark down there.

Slightly less obvious: why did you choose her? Someone with such a profoundly distressed soul as your wife can't possibly have seemed like pure apple pie when you chose each other. She could possibly have appealed, however, to a man whose own insecurities drove him to feel needed - as provider, guardian, rescuer, shepherd - by someone whose needs were very great. Or she could have appealed to a man who found himself disgusting, and felt kinship in that way, though his response was to make himself extra-good where she went for extra-bad?

Either way, Hubby, you took your role as 'good shepherd' and you fulfil it to the tee. But you're well on the way to breaking your deal, since you now say (rather alarmingly, in the same paragraph) you hate her and you love her. Go carefully, please, this looks like treacherous ground.

If I were big-headed enough to claim a guess at god's motives, I'd suggest he gave you each other to work out each other's demons. Or to provoke each other into working out your own demons, which amounts to the same thing.

Whatever your wife's issues represent to you, I think you're making a mistake to see it as a purely moral/emotional issue on her part (obviously, it is to you). Such extremely self-destructive behaviour, especially coupled with her guilt-tortured reworkings of her faith, is more than waywardness. It's illness. She's sick.

That information isn't a whole lot of help to you right now, since she won't seek help of any kind. You can't have her sectioned as she isn't threatening her own or anyone else's life. She will, however, reach a point eventually where she asks for help or is forced to accept it.

I'm distressed at the thought of you both going through this - and worse - before she's in safe hands, where she can find some peace of mind. But I'm even more scared that, before she gets to those safe hands, some even more psychotic quasi-religious nutter will get hold of her & destroy whatever's left in her that's good! She's prime fodder.

Of course, Hubby, nobody would blame you if you decide to divorce, seperate, or whatever gets you out of this mess with your family more or less intact. As others have pointed out, even god will allow you that one. You do deserve some happiness - or, should I say, some serenity.

Happiness and serenity are largely states of mind. If they're conferred upon us, they don't last long unless the benficiary has already achieved a state of equilibrium in their own being. This, you don't have at present. It's what you need. Strangely enough, you can achieve your serenity in any circumstances. Whether you're with your wife or not; poor or rich - you can achieve it.

The only thing that's holding you back from finding your own peace (in life!) is your resentment. Your posts are shot through with it. Try to lose it. God doesn't like resentment very much (except when it's his own, heh); most of the parables are about serenity. Whichever course of action you decide upon, try to stop resenting the past you wish you had but didn't; to calmly deal with the present you have; to peacably adopt a happier view of life and believe in your own capacity for happiness.

You have a massive helping hand in your faith - find yourself some kind, genuine souls amongst your church community to support you when your faith in god's benevolence wavers, and also when your faith in your self does. Become an optimist; one who revels in the joys of god's creation.

Personally, I hope you will find it in you to carry on, more equably, shepherding your wife. This is because I fear for her. Maybe you do, too, and maybe you do need that level of challenge after all. Maybe you'll choose to leave that particular sheep in her abyss; maybe you'll find a wider cause to support, like a victim support project or something else that calls on your shepherding skills but less intensely.

In any case, the thing for you is to find your optimism. And become serene. I wish you the very best of luck; I think you'll get your helping hand from on high when you look for it in hope.

Whew, too long!
I'll be interested to see what you thought (if you read it, of course!)

AG

[rppearso]

Scripturally valid or not, this marriage will destroy you and is not of God but of satan. God did not design marriage to be prudish or sexless. The real problem to contend with is if there are kids you will have serious child support consequences if you divorce unless you can get custody.

[BigBen]

Oh Hubby - i thought I had it bad - i was married in '76 - but at least our sex life lasted a little longer than that. Look - yes - you have kept to your word - and all credit to you. I don't know where you live - i'm from the U.K. - but you seem like a really nice God-fearing guy - a human being of the very best kind ------------ but --- what is the price you have paid???? I just pray that you take the remainder of your life and LIVE it!!!!! - God bless you man!!!

[addymark]

i don't think its good for getting marrige because no any holy process like in Hindu so i thing its not bater that that one. no any program of dance or etc....

Have it well.