First infidelity, now porn. Help!

[Mocamps]

I am new to this forum but need some advice. I have been married for 34 years to a pilot. Five years ago, I discovered that he had been unfaithful to me for over 20 years of our marriage. I decided to stay with him because he was truly devastated that I found out and promised he would never do it again (and I believe he has been faithful from that date) Also, in the beginning, I thought it was just a couple of one-night stands while he was on trips.

Don't get me wrong!! That was bad enough for me to live with but not as bad as the reality which took a nightmarish 18 months to emerge. He had slept with about 30 different women, including some unprotected sex and had 3 'proper' affairs, one lasting about 3 years. I just kept uncovering more and more and by the time it all came out, I was just too worn out to be able to deal with it. In fact, the last bit only came out because I took an overdose (a cry for help) and he finally saw just how much I needed to know the whole truth and not live in fear of yet another lie coming out. The only thing that kept me going was my Christian faith and the fact that I truly believed he hadn't done it since I first found out.

After that we started to get better and though it has been a long haul, and we both have had a lot of counselling,(me more than him!) we are getting there. I still get anxious when he goes away but it is more about triggers and bad memories than actual fear that he will do something. He calls and texts me all the time to reassure me and always checks the crews to make sure there aren't any of the ones he had affairs with on the trip (I just couldn't cope with that!)

Anyway, the real reason for this post is that I found out a couple of days ago that he has been looking at porn on the internet. I asked him about it. He admitted it straight away and assured me it would stop. He said it had been going on for about a year and I pointed out that our sex life has deteriorated over that same time so it wasn't doing us any good. He agreed, said he had been feeling bad about it and was relieved I had found out because now he would stop.

At first, I was OK and thought it was really nothing compared to all the other stuff I had dealt with. However, now I find it is troubling me a lot and I keep questioning if I am being naive and if it is going to be like the last time and open a can of worms. It's the secrecy that troubles me. If he has been concealing this, what else has he been concealing?

He has been really sorry and says he feels he has let me down but I feel so upset. Most of the girls he went with were a lot younger (cabin crew) and now I know he has been looking at younger women on porn, I just feel no respect for him and feel I am constantly going to worry about being too old and fat (which he has been critical of in the past). When his mother died, his father remarried a much younger woman within months. No-one likes her (she is not a very likeable person) but his father seems happy. I just can't help wondering if my husband is always going to be wishing he was with a younger woman when he is with me. He says he wants to grow old with me but I think he really would prefer that I was 20 years younger!

Can I live the rest of my life feeling like this?

We have a great family and we are very close to them all. We have been together all our adult life and I can't imagine my life without him, but am I kidding myself? - again!!

[Raymond]

Your story seems vaguely familiar to me Mocamps. Another pilot. You have all the grounds for divorce here but you had his repentance and you accepted it. Should have been end of story. First thing, you cannot worry about getting old. If you have a good marriage it should be for life and being old shouldn't come into it. You know that as a christian, so there is a goal to reach here in your marriage, which can still be a good marriage in the sight of God.

The porn is a downer. You and I know that it is wrong and I suspect you have read some threads on it here. I am wondering if it's a leftover after all these affairs? The good thing about it is that he knows it's wrong and admits it. A lot of them say everyone does it and do not take responsibility for their actions. At least he is not taking that route. He really needs to be totally faithful and committed to you though. If he is a christian he will know this. You say that he says he is glad it is in the open as now he can do something about. The next stage is for him to do something about it. Just hiding it from you will not be an answer and he could become addicted. It really is another form of adultery, mental adultery and he needs to realise that. There are good signs that he is trying so I would bear with it and encourage him in that. When he totally comes off of it things will get better in the bedroom. This is important as well, as having got right about his liasons and hopefully dealing with the porn, the last thing he would want is a sexless marriage.

Raymond

[Mocamps]

Thanks Raymond,

I don't really know if he would call himself a Christian. He did when I first married him but then he drifted away from the church and God. Given what he was up to, I think I can now see why it would make him uncomfortable to go to church in those days. Since it all came out he has talked more openly about still having a faith and he has said at times that he has prayed for me when I was really low, but he rarely goes to church and doesn't really talk about God apart from in that way. I think that really he went along with my faith in the early days of our marriage and then he went totally away and would not discuss faith at all. Now he's kind of in the middle. I think that's why I worry that his values are really very different from mine. I find forgiving him very difficult because in my heart of hearts I believe that if he genuinely had a choice to go back and just be with me or not have me and be able to have all the other women, he would choose the latter. Having both was ideal for him and I don't think it troubled his conscience too much while he thought I would never find out. But then I DID find out!! He didn't want to hurt me and he really cares about our family but he often says people shouldn't get married and if anything happened to me, he wouldn't remarry so I think he would just rather not be married at all!! - and carry on sowing his seed in places various!!

That said, we ARE married, we are trying to work this out and most of the time we are doing fairly well - except when something like this comes up, knocks me for 6 and makes me start questioning the wisdom of me staying with him after all.

[Windy]

Hi Mocamps. I am really sorry you have found yourself in this situation and cannot really offer any advice but perhaps I can put things from a different perspective.
When I first got married (very young) I was not wholly faithful, despite being a christian believer. I think most of it was insecurity and lack of self confidence, totally contrary to what the world saw me as. Flirting with other women, and having them attracted to me was a real thrill. Anything more than flirting was not really necessary, but an inevitable consequence of the situations I put myself in (especially fuelled by a couple of drinks). This MAY have been the case with your husband.

The more recent problem suggests that maybe there is something you can't or won't give him in your sex life. Perhaps even something he would never ask because he respects you too much, or is embarrassed to ask.
I will confess that I began to find sex with my wife a bit of a drudge as she got more and more out of it while I seemed to get less - it became all about satisfying her, and if I didn't I felt inadequate and a failure. (and don't think faking it will work either cos we can SOMETIMES tell :) ). The result was it slipped to once a week, once every 2 weeks, monthly etc. There is a saying that what men really want is a lady in public and a slut in the bedroom - probably not too far from the truth!

I don't know what part of the world you are in, but there are some really good relationship counsellors, some of whom specialise in sexual matters. Maybe they could help?

Good luck, and don't give up, there has to be something there for it to last 34 years.

[Raymond]

Mocamps it is a difficult situation for you. The main problem is this barrier relating to trust I think. You are never really sure what he really wants to do. Do you forgive people who haven't really repented? I am not really sure about that. Jesus did say if they repent forgive them. While you are willing to forgive I sense that the full blooded commitment to be faithful only to you is in some doubt. This is where the difficulty is coming from. You are in a relationship. It's not like forgiving some stranger who you will never see again. There are different kinds of forgiveness. I know you are ready to forgive but you cannot fully do that until he comes fully round. I think the answer is spiritual here. He really needs a complete turnaround. Now you know the situation at least you can now pray. Whether he responds to the prayers time will tell but you can be sure something is going on. Sounds like you have a slippery eel that needs to be nailed. Hopefully he will sort this porn out and not go underground with it. His whole philosophy is in question to my mind.

Raymond

[Mocamps]

Hi Windy,

Thanks for your input. I don't think that poor sex with me is an issue for him - at least, he says it isn't!! It's ME that has found it to be not very good in the last year. He's fine with it because I am very obliging and he just can't be bothered half the time. Despite sometimes appearing a bit prudish about things like porn, I am actually quite willing in the bedroom - if you know what I mean!! There isn't really anything he has wanted me to do that I haven't and he says that is not an issue for him - it wasn't WHAT we did that was the problem. It was just that he would rather be doing it with someone younger and thinner, and that he hasn't been with since he was 17!!

I'm actually not all that fat - at least, most people say I'm not but I'm tall and not petite and that's what he really seems to be attracted to - going by the women he has been with. He really likes stick thin!! And I have had 3 children and I am 54 so it is all heading south! Most people seem to think I am quite attractive (and I have had plenty of offers over the years!!) but it's just a case that the grass still seems a bit greener on the other side of the fence! No, I think the problem with the sex in the last year may have been due to the porn, and also due to the fact that after 20 years of being able to ring the changes pretty much whenever he felt like it, now he has only 1 woman - and that just isn't very exciting - hence the porn, I suspect!!

However, maybe I am totally wrong. And maybe I am wrong to be trusting him at all. That's the difficulty I have. I don't rerally trust my own judgement - because I got it so wrong before!!

[Windy]

And if you'd asked my wife she would say the exact same thing- but still I wish we'd gone to see someone. I feel sure that she felt rejected by the diminishing sex, and the more pressured I felt the less I was inclined to.

My wife also looked after herself, even at 50 I'd take her over most of the women you see around. But still it felt like I was under pressure to perform! I gues pictures on a PC screen demand nothing back, and possibly his girlfriends didn't either, perhaps it was enough to be "with a pilot"?

[Mocamps]

I think you're right about the women not making any demands - what's so great about pilots?!! Ask anyone who is married to one!!

I have actually suggested that we go to see someone about the sex, but he won't. He says he had enough of counsellors five years ago. And as i say, he says he hasn't got a problem with it - though he does masturbate a lot!! And always has!! What does that say? He thinks it is normal and I am not experienced enough to know any different, as I haven't actually ever been with any other man but him since I was 17. And I didn't have sex with any of the others before that.

Thanks

[Johnee S]

It takes a lifetime to build trust, it takes only a second to destroy it. You need to look deep down inside and ask yourself despite his ways can you really love him the same way and let go of the past? Can you honestly forgive and forget? If you honestly can forgive and let go of his past mistakes I would suggest maybe a trip or two to a love shop and pick up some things you are both comfortable with trying out, create some fantasy under the bed sheets, put some spice in your sex life and see what happens from there. Talk about it, as Raymond said most men want a lady in public and a slut in the bedroom. My W iwa very restistive to what she does in bed, I wanted her and I to study and practice Karma Sutra for years as the energy exercises and the acts of each technique bring pleasures to both you and your partner to the highest sexual peaks you can both take together.

We tried a few things over the last 4 years and believe it or not we got to a point where she and I felt like our bodies melted together as one and the feeling was amazing, you both share the pleasures and the emotions that build up through the acts of Karma Sutra. Some people think its evil or dirty but trust me, as husband and wife it is probably the most inspiring, exiciting, and fulfilling experiences you can share together in the bedroom.

[Raymond]

It wasn't me who said that Johnee. There is a certain truth to it but I don't like the word slut for my wife even though I know what you mean.

The thing about sex is that you cannot seperate it from relationship. If a husband is watching porn or going with other women there has been a breach in the relationship that will damage the sexual relationship as well. Also as you point out the trust will not be there. It has to be you two alone. If that is the case the sky is the limit.

Unfortunately I don't think that is the case here and no amount of sexual shopping can fix it without a restoration in the trust. We can only hope he deals with the porn and any other unfaithful fantasies he has.

Raymond

[Ageing Grace]

Hello, Mocamps :)

I seem to remember replying to a post very much like yours, in the "married to a pilot" thread which, I believe, is in the Coffee Shop forum here. I'd be inclined to think there was some kind of pilot vendetta going on here! Only ... several of my friends are air crew, and I suspect there is a bit of a syndrome in effect.

Let's start from basics. Air crew choose to spend their entire working life aboard gravitation-defying machines, which necessarily de-priotise human survival in favour of staying aloft (which obviously maximises human survival, as long as the craft does stay aloft!). They choose a lifestyle that requires ignorance of time zones; they must breakfast, sleep, dine and party at the convenient hour, never mind their body clock. They breathe foetid on-board air for a full working day, every working day (whatever hours it might be) and are routinely exposed to pure UVC at high altitudes, the effects of which are still unproven but much feared.

So. You've married a man whose career choice offers enough fun that it's worth taking risks - risks most earth-bound individuals wouldn't countenance for more than a few days. That quality in him must have been part of what attracted you.

Risk-takers are, usually, fun and fascinating. Your pilot; someone else's race driver; the SAS man; the scaffolder; the deep-sea engineer; the Olympic gymnast and you could go on ... People who live for today, plan for next month and cannot afford a single mistake. It's something most of us envy, but haven't the guts to join in.

If you also want your death-defying, clock-changing, no-mistake husband to be a lovely stay-at-home, parents-evening-attending, dishwasher-stacking, faithful husband ... you're asking a hell of a lot.

I have heard of pilots who manage to treat the job as just a job, and live happy contented lives - but I never met any of them. The job requirements are very close to the profile of an extreme sport fan: an active desire to conquer the odds, every time, disregarding personal comfort. Those genuinely detached, contented, family pilots must be absolute paragons of self control. I bet having sex with them feels like an exam!!

So. To answer your last question, Mocamps: Yes, it's normal to masturbate a lot ... what's "a lot"? Once a day, when circumstances dictate no chance of sex, is normal - maybe twice a day if circumstances are really rubbish. A couple of times a week is probably much more usual.

If your man has so much great sex with himself that he doesn't need you, there's a problem. The problem is often that he's having sex with another person, not just himself (sorry). Alternatively, he might be having imaginary sex with porn stars, or be sharing mutual masturbation with some stranger online. None of those are pretty pictures.

The main point is this: If your partner's having less sex with you and more of another kind of sex instead, you've got a relationship problem.

If your partner has *always* had another kind of sex as well as with you, and you have always been happy with your situation, then your only problem will arise when something breaks up the pattern that works for you.

I'm not saying it's a bright idea to enter into a compromised marriage, especially if you weren't aware of the compromise - too much can go wrong - but I wonder if your real problem was, as you said in your post, that you discovered hubbie's random exploits? Would you have stayed happy, had you not discovered them?

Big question: Could you be happy with it again, if you didn't have to think of it as WRONG??

I've asked too many questions, I know. I'm sorry!

I hope you write back :)

AG x

[Raymond]

I cannot believe your reply AG. Are you actually saying she could learn to live with adultery going on? I cannot believe you are saying this.

Raymond

[Johnee S]

What Raymond said...

[Windy]

Sorry AG, I gotta disagree. Although a lot of people do live with infidelity the reasons (other than 'swingers') are usually financial dependence or 'for the sake of the children' with an acrimonious split waiting in the future. Once Pandora's box is open there's no way back to blissful ignorance. However, like Pandora's box there is still HOPE.

Communication is the key. Real communication not just talking at each other or whinging, but listening and trying to understand each otehr's point of view (I know... if I could do it maybe I wouldn't be on this site myself, but that does not make it any less true :-)

[Ageing Grace]

No, I'm not saying it's a brilliant idea to dumbly accept infidelity - or any other relationship problem.

I was trying to open up wider viewpoints than "This is wrong, that's not wrong, how much wrong is normal?" Because thinking like that rarely helps, when your beliefs about your own personal life are being incrementally shattered as Mocamps described.

When your marriage is hurting you, you don't need telling that it's wrong: every fibre of your being screams it at you! What you might need, though, is some help in gaining a bit of intellectual distance on your pain so you can start to figure out how to go forward from here.

It's usual to ask: "Is this normal?" and "How worried should I be?" Those are the easy questions to answer, too. But the answers provide poor clues, for an individual trying to make sense of their distress.

I meant what I said about air crew - there's a pile of threads in the Coffee Shop about them. It applies to other risk-taking professions, as well. Did you know that the highest divorce rates in the UK are among the police and fire services? Mocamps said that she and her husband share good communication and good sex. Therefore, I reckon she needs to consider some other aspects of her marriage: so as to come to her own best conclusion.

Marriages are complex and delicate arrangements: every single one of them is different and, really, only the people in them know what they're made of. I rarely give advice as such - only when there is blatant abuse. What I try to do is help people find a way to reach the "right" path - for them.

AG

[Mocamps]

Thank you all for your input. We have just returned from a 3 week holiday visiting our son. We got on great the whole time and had a really good family time together. However, as soon as I get home, all the triggers come back and I start to feel paranoid again - checking his computer. It was through the computer that I found out about the infidelity in the first place - he had left an e-mail open from an account I didn't know he had, and then the porn on the computer, so I get twitchy when he spends a lot of time on it - and he DOES spend a lot of time on it! And then there is the whole issue of him returning to work! Sometimes I think I will never be free of all this pain.

Anyway, thanks again and sorry I have been out of touch.

[Raymond]

Infidelity and adultery are always wrong AG. Once you go away from that one is just drifting along without any moral compass. I strongly believe porn is wrong as well as that is a brand of infidelity. Many times in your posts you are hinting that one should accept it, french mistresses and all that. In giving that advice you are going against the whole ethos of this site.

Raymond

[Raymond]

You are still struggling with the trust aspect Morcamps. Does he accept that porn and affairs are wrong or is it just swept under the carpet? I can't make out from your posts what his attitude is. If the right attitude was there then trust can be built again. It seems to me you are short on the confession that it is wrong and damaging to the marriage without which it is very difficult for you to completely trust him.

Yes you can live with it as AG has suggested but that is not what a marriage should be.

Raymond

[Mocamps]

He DOES accept that both of these things are wrong within marriage but I can't help thinking that if he were given the chance to re-live his life, it is the marriage bit that he would change! I think he would have preferred to be free to sleep around (which I don't think he thinks is wrong as long as you are not married)

To be honest, I don't think I am struggling too much with the whole porn thing if it wasn't for the secrecy aspect of it. The fact that he has been sneaking around behind my back looking at this just makes me wonder what else I am missing. We promised to have no more secrets yet he has been doing this behind my back. It makes me feel a need to check up on him again and I thought I was over that stage. And I can't really check on him when he is away so trust HAS to be there. I don't think he appreciates how much damage this whole incident has done to the fragile trust we were beginning to rebuild.

The other thing that is lacking is respect. I just don't respect his moral choices.

However, all that aside, I DO respect the effort he has put in to building a good relationship with our children - since they left home - he was really an absent father as they were growing up and admits now that he was too involved in pursuing his erracurricular activities and was not at that point interested or committed to our family. He DID leave at one point 10 years ago but returned as he realised he DID want to stay married to me. Unfortunately, I knew nothing of all the affairs at that point and so I couldn't really make an informed choice about what I wanted. I knew we were struggling but divorce was not an option for me. I had made vows which I believed to be sacred and he maintained that he was being entirely faithful. He just wasn't very happy. But all the time he was living away, he kept popping back and that was really messing me up so I told him in the end to stay away or come back and try to work things out. He chose the latter and things were a lot better after that. We went for counselling but of course, it later turned out that a lot of the stuff he said then was lies. It's been a real mess. I do need to forgive him and move forward but I'm just not sure that I can while I believe that it is the marriage he regrets and not the infidelity.

In a way I think we have both felt trapped by our marriage. We married too young, we weren't ready for it. We had both lost siblings in an accident (that was how we met) and I think the basis was that we filled a gap for each other. We started off friends and it grew from there - not a bad thing but I think we probably have an unhealthy dependence on each other.

What a mess!

[Raymond]

It sounds like he wanted to be single and sleep around. I don't think that is right either so really it is his moral outlook on life which is the problem. It doesn't really lend itself to building trust in a marriage if that is the way he really is deep down.

I can't really see any solution to it apart from you concentrating on yourself and your life. The one hope is that he knows what he did is wrong and maybe he will try to put it right. I don't think the porn will help as that is a kind of mental adultery. It is really up to him to regain your trust and hopefully that is what he will be working on.

Raymond

[Mocamps]

Thanks Raymond,

Your advice is valued. It has helped just to have a sounding board. I guess I will plod on and keep working on the forgiveness aspect. I don't think splitting up is an option for either of us at this stage.

[Raymond]

While theres life there is hope Morcamps. If he loves you he will find the motivation to honour you and be faithful as that is part of what a marriage is.

Raymond