Control?

[Ageing Grace]

A little while back, 30-Odd posted that he'd been reading all the threads in this forum, and said he'd come to see what a huge issue CONTROL is, when relationships go wrong.

30's missus told him he was controlling; he agrees. We're lucky here; we find people making massive personal steps forward (some of which might lead to reconciliation, some towards a more fulfilling other life in future). Nobody commented on that post of his, though.

It was around the same time as all of you got your bad news ... what is it; the Christmas credit card bills come in, and half the world's spouses go "That's it! I'm outta here!"??

Anyway. Now you're all getting a handle on your situations :p ... can I ask?

Did/does your partnership feature a would-be controller? Was it you, or was it them?

In slim hopes of a reply ;)
AG

[RayCub]

Well, AG, I never saw myself as controlling, but my H mentioned the very last time we were talking (in depth) - Monday night - that he felt controlled by me and my parents since moving here to my hometown. My parents are VERY take charge people and I do tend to seek them out when faced with a decision. I guess if I look deep within myself, I have to admit that I went to them for help with things - seemingly unimportant things to me - more than I went to my H. I can understand why he felt controlled to a certain extent.

It's weird though. I always knew there were "issues" between my H and my folks, so I always felt torn down the middle. It got so that I stopped telling my H that he was invited to supper at my folks (he hated going), and would just make an inoccuous excuse for his not being thre to my parents. It's not that they didn't like each other, but that they were so diametrically opposed on so many issues.

My family is the type to argue politics, religion, law, you name it, we argue and discuss it...our supper table was always lively and loud. My H's family ate in silence and never discuss anything more than music and fishing. I'm sure we both nearly went into shock the first time we ever ate at each other's houses! My family is opinionated, his family is reserved; my family are demonstrative (lots of hugging, kissing, affection), his family holds back; my family act, his family react. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just SO different. He used to say he enjoyed being with my family more, but things changed...

Sigh.....I feel like there's so much more to explain. I'll just say a little bit though. I have five siblings, four of whom are oldeer than me by 10 years or more. All six of us are university educated, have good "white collar" jobs, are successful in work and family life. This is because my dad and mom, who only have grade 4 and 11, respectively pushed us to be the best we can be. They were very poor and struggled grately in their early life and didn't want any of us to ever go through the same hardships. I tend to be the black sheep of the family. I'm not just saying that. It's simply the way it is. I'm also the only child living anywhere near my parents; the rest are spread across Canada and Japan. We are proud of our accomplishment, but, by no means, are we arrogant.

My husband is one of six living children. He is the second oldest. His mom is a retired school teacher, his dad a retired mill worker. Both were very successful in their jobs. His siblings are all community college educated, and most have good jobs: from running a day care to being a prison guard. Other than one sibling in Japan, we live the farthest from his family at two hours away. They are very close in proximity; however, they aren't very close in feelings. They love to discuss fishing, hunting, the river, music and writing. I loved going to his parents' home on the river. It was very relaxing, although it did tend to get boring quickly.

I'm not really sure why I'm rambling on so much. I guess I just needed to explain the differences in our backgrounds because I think that's where my H gets the sense he was being controlled. Where my family takes charge, his sit on thier thumbs. While mine acts to fix something, his ignores issues in hopes that they will disappear. I can understand that when we were facing something, even as simple as getting something done to the car, and my family got involved (unjustifyably so) how my H would feel controlled. I should have told my famiily to back off; I should have asked them to mind their own business; I should have trusted more in the decisions made solely by my H.

But I didn't, and now he's gone. I guess I'm coming to terms with this a little too late...

[georgie]

This is a very interesting question, I can only really answer it in a stream of conciousness that I'm not sure will make sense.
I think that control was see-sawing in our relationship.
I would say that we both had insecurities and the way to hide them was in trying in some way to control the other.
I think maybe I didn't understand where I ended and he began, that's normally used as a romatic reference, but it's not healthy is it. I tried to get him to like movies and stuff that I liked, and probably made him feel 'less' when he didn't obey my wish. He talked to me about soccer ad nauseum in spite of my protests that I really did not want to hear it - he tried to force that interest on to me to some extent. We had other things in common, more then enough but still we seemed to try to mould each other in to more of a mirror image of ourselves rather then just accepting each others individuality.
One of his statements at the begining of our separation was that he wanted to feel 'more free'. I was baffled because I'd never thought I'd stopped him from doing anything, other then seeing the OW (call me unreasonable!). Years ago when our first baby was new and I was working full time, I asked him to cut back on his soccer etc. as it was taking up weeknights and weekends and I had no family support, I don't think I stopped him doing anything else - I'll keep thinking about it.
He had some basic financial goals which we both worked hard to achieve, these goals controlled our lives to the extent that we were working, and raising kids and renovating to the exclusion of a lot of simple quality time, this was really draining. Once on that treadmill it's hard to get off, your pace is set - I felt trapped myself at times. Then on top of that there is lifes ups and downs as mentioned many times, grief, work stress, family stress etc. these suck a lot of oxygen out of your relationship too and can also take control.
Of course the most recent example of an attempt at controlling behaviour is that he said "I want to go" and I said "no, you can't go", he told me how he felt and I said he was wrong, etc.etc. this was a failed attempt at control wasn't' it? It is in some ways arrogant to think that our feelings about wanting the relationship to continue are superior to the feelings of someone who genuinely feels they are a spent force in it.
It's sad that communication was not better leading up to their decision, but I guess communication is a two way thing. Did I ever actually say "are you happy?", "is everything ok with you?". I don't think I did, I think I just thought "he's moaning again" roll eyes, give him a few minutes then let him know you've heard it all before. That moaning was just the surface, if I'd taken the time to listen properly maybe we could have delved a bit deeper. Maybe instead of thinking I'd rather watch tv, or I've got to cook dinner I dont' have time for this or whatever...I could have heard the begining of the end, and turned things around. This is why that sympathetic ear elsewhere becomes such an iresistable force..
Was it a form of control when I withdrew from him last year?
At the counsellor today I was telling her that there was some kind of unspoken rule book in the relationship. Neither of us really set the rules they just seemed to evolve over time - our life routine so to speak. Routine can feel like a trap, if it's not providing you with what you need. In stead of making small changes to make life better, I think he let it all get to him progressively over time and then freaked out. All the rants about work were just part of the problem.

[RayCub]

AG,

I’ve been pondering your question of control all night. So, I’m up early writing this to get if off my mind. These are th rest of my thoughts, however disjointed they may be:

My father is controlling. He tries hard to control everyone around him, especially his family. If someone isn’t like him he’s critical. If a person doesn’t work 18 hours a day, doesn’t go to church, doesn’t vote conservative, “wastes” time reading, listening to music, going for long drives, or “wastes” money on going out to dinner and coffee, well then, that person doesn’t measure up. That’s the category my H was in when it came to my dad. We fight back, don’t get me wrong. My siblings tell him exactly what they think of his outdated ideas and outrageous opinions and then he gets this big chip on his shoulder hoping we’ll all feel sorry for him. Most of us just end up ignoring him.

I, too, however, never felt like I measured up in my father’s eyes. So, in reality, we don’t have a great relationship. I don’t talk to him about anything important: can’t remember the last meaningful conversation we’ve had. When an issue comes up, and I feel him about to go off with his righteous opinion, I will duck out of the room, especially if I don’t have a sibling there to back me up. I tend not to stand up for myself to him, because there simply is no point. My H has stood up for me to him though, and I was never so proud of him. Any, yes, I told him that.

My H, in the middle of our big fight that started this whole separation, said that my father controlled my thoughts and actions. When I pointed out that I’m a grown woman and I have my own thoughts and opinions, H looked very condescendinly at me and said, “No. You just THINK you do.” He also pointed out that nigt that he and I have such differences of opinions, that that was one of our problems.

So, here’s my dilemma: If I think like my H, he’s okay with that. If I think like myself, my thoughts are actually my dad’s, so I’m being judgemental and controlling.

When did I get the chance to be me?

So, the more I think about it, the more I have no idea who was doing the controlling in our relationship. He kept all his feelings to himself, which I feel is a form of control. He said he wanted to avoid fighting, which is also controlling. He let me believe he loved me all this time, and I guess, to me, that the biggest form of control there is.

As well, because my H was bottling things up, every now and again he would freak out (throw things around, break stuff) and yell at me and tell me what a bad wife I am - bad at housekeeping, not a great mom, lousy with money...last summer when we had the "FIGHT" (the one we never seemed to recover from), he managed to describe in detail to me how I was a bad daughter, mother and wife all 'round. His behaviour and words usually kept me walking on eggshells, doing dishes, laundry, speaking softly and trying not to invoke another wrath from him. This didn't happen often, adn his outbursts usually involved drinking (no, he doesn't have a problem); I think it was the whole idea of "A drunk man's words are a sober man's thoughts"...

So, I guess shows control over me too, doesn't it?

Again, I’m just rambling….but it feels good to get this all off my chest.

[RayCub]

"Routine can feel like a trap, if it's not providing you with what you need."

I think this is my H's reasoning, georgie.

I DID, however, take the time to ask him if he was happy and if everything was ok with him, and he lied to me by saying "yes", so who's to say your H would've been honest with you either.

[georgie]

This is so interesting.
RC I was reading you're thread and the word 'Avoid' triggered a huge response in me. That is a key attribute in a lot of these 'walk away' types I believe. In the first article I read about MLC (Please don't think I attribute everything to MLC, but I'd just never really understood it before and for me the pieces kind of fit, if I pound them in with my fist) it said that the people most likely to be worst affected by MLC woud be those with unresolved childhood issues and AVOIDANT personalities. My H ticks both those boxes, he would avoid a confrontation until absolutely conrered. Now because he has 'gone public' on our split/confrontation - he is truly behaving as if he has post traumatic stress disorder.
I think these people will have a lot in common, just as ironically we do!
I'll give you an outline of mine:

Mr. Nice Guy - everyone tells me how lucky I am all the time. (mutter mutter mutter )
Mr. Hypochondriac - must always have at least a little something wrong with him, once got a bruise on his leg from football and told me he could die from it IF he developed a blood clot, On the day our 2nd child was due I was driving him to hospital as he was sooo ill and convinced he had an ulcer/cancer - was in so much pain. Gets the 'all clear' forgets all the pain etc. goes on to the next ailment. While I'm in labour (no drugs) the nurse spends more time looking after him because he looks "so tired".
Mr. Helpful - offers to help people with everything, but then has a whinge about it to me.
Mr. Work Volunteer - put's his hand up for everything as he feels insecure in his job.
Mr. Family Man - I'd do anything for my family - except actually do anything.

I really think we could build quite a profile.

Control is an interesting aspect. Do you think that the fact that our spouses checked out without telling us maybe created a void which we then go gang busters trying to fill - this is then perceived as being controlling and used as a 'get out of jail' excuse?

I am probably a really strong willed person, so I would say that I have controlling tendancies. I really need to keep thinking it over. I think a lot of people considered me in soe ways a pushover because I worked and did the lions share at home, BUT often we behave this way as a form of control, we try to make our partners as dependant on us as possible.. Yes I think i have to put my hand up and say in that respect I was controlling. Oh I hate admitting that - but there it is. In the past I've often felt resentful of my mother in law and I couldnt put my finger on why for a long time, but it was for very similary behaviour. She would come along trying to help and taking over - and I would feel a mixture of guilt/anger - guilt for feeling angry at her basically, because she was taking over my position in the household, my position of control, my position of being essential - and therefore in control. Will I feel lighter after confessing this sin, I feel .....lost for words really. I'm not sure how one is supposed to behave any more ,I'm being forced to re-evaluate everything. It seems even the things I thought was doing right need to be looked at again, how frigthtening.

[30-odd]

hi all :)

i know personally that me being a(as she said) a control freak,,,, was a major part in why we split,, i was talking to friend last night and realised then that some of the questions i still ask are of a controlling nature,,, i thought i had changed quite a bit still do,,, but when my wife said 2 weeks ago that i hadnt i realsie now that i havent changed as much as i thought i had!!!!

we can all build up a barrier of excuses by saying ,,,,its only cause i care and iam just showing interest in your life,,,, but it is controlling,, when i think of how it was i know my wife never asked questions like i used to,, if i went out she would say did you have a nice time,,, and yet when i asked her about her night out i would ask a lot more...

one of her major problems was when we 1st met her father had died 3 yrs before hand she was 16 when i met her and was told by a friend of hers not to talk to her about her father as she gets really upset i listened to her because when my then g/friend did speak of him she broke down,, i couldnt handle this because my real father and step one both did a runner on my family and my step one did it when we said my then g/friend was pregnant at 16,,,,, i told her to stop talking a bout him as i dont like seeing you so upset but sadly i never then allowed her to express her feelings which i now know had a big effect on her towards her feelings for me by saying that i control her and shut her up,,, control is a bad thing each person should be allowed to be a free spirt and lead their own life

ive learnt a lot about this and myself and will take it forward with me in to all aspects of my life from now on

[RayCub]

Yeah, my H has childhood issues as well; he admitted to be after we had been married quite a few years that his dad beat him with a hockey stick when he was younger, and always kept a belt or hanger at the kitchen table to "encourage" all the kids to clean their plates! So, whenever my H would get pissy at our kids about the living room having too many toys or whatnot scattered about, I knew it was his father coming out in him. But I NEVER once told him he was like his father, as opposed to the many times he compared me to mine....ahhh, father issues...just one more problem to add to the pile, eh?

Georgie, when you talk about controlling through managing most of the household, I have to admit I did the same thing. Although he was a very good partner in terms of house hold chores and child rearing, I still did the majority and resented it. And I let him know by being grumpy and quiet at times. I pulled the martyr bit with him too - Oh God, it feels disgusting to admit that - by suffering in very loud silence. I feel like a sh*ithead now...Jeeese...no wonder he wasn't happy.

I also would use my "sad, guilty eyes", as he refers to them, on him when he wanted to do something without me. Now, I've already explained why I did that, and I think it's legitimate, but still not fair.

But here's the ultimate control, I think. As I've stated before in my thread, when my H and I first started seeing each other he told me he would never again be so fully committed to a relationship that he couldn't just walk away. That is such a powerful statement to make, and it stuck with me throughout our entire relationship and affected how I felt EVERY time he walked out that door without me. I was so afraid he would leave me that I tried to reign him in; the more I tried to reign him in, the more he felt suffocated and wanted to leave. Then he got tired of fighting about it, and just stopped trying, or caring. Who can blame him?

God, MAYBE this WAS all MY fault....

[georgie]

No it's not all our fault by a long way. I think however it's more 50/50 then we want to admit. I think my H was appalling lieing to me, sneaking around but I think I was awful to him in other ways. I took the situation for granted, I thought I could go through my stuff, be withdrawn and moody while I sorted myself out, be pissed off within for being to obsessed with his job, I thought I would snap out of this and hey presto we'd continue on with life. What I didn't realise was that he was another human being going through his own stuff, following his own path with at times little input and support from me, and of course the stero typical 'office floosy' in the wings waiting to be his one woman cheer squad. I don't think that has worked out for him, but there has been a lot of damage done. All very subtly over a long period of time, it crept and crept up - and I (as I often describe my H) had my own head so far up my own A that I didn't see it coming. I had no idea how to maintain a healthy relationship. I thought we are two nice people with lots of good qualities and lots of things going for us, that will see us through. But I didn't keep up the work required, the ongoing maintenance - I let that slide for a while and before I knew it - WE HAD A SQUATTER in our midst!
It's not all our fault RC. he was equally responsible for the maintenance, and LOYALTY was a key component. Oh, hind sight is an incredible thing.
I think we have to be completely honest with ourselves and recognise where we've gone wrong if we are to move on, and to have a descent relationship with our kids fathers in the future. I really wish I could look back and say hey I was perfect your an ass - but that's just not how it really was.

[georgie]

I'm sorry about the terrible spelling and typos - my kids have been using the laptop and a lot of the keys are sticking because the keyboard is full of CRUMBS.. if I've told them once I've told them a thousand times.

[RayCub]

But I made him take ALL the blame and I feel like a real shi*t for doing that now.

You're right...I WAS moody and hard to get along with at times and selfish, while I'm spilling all the beans about myself. I felt, though, that I was giving him support and encouragement, and I made a point of asking him if he was happy, if there was something missing, if I was holding him back from something... Why couldn't he just be honest when I asked him? I gave him the opportunity, but he didn't take it. And you can't drag that information out of someone. Maybe I'm still too defensive, I don't know...

"I thought we are two nice people with lots of good qualities and lots of things going for us, that will see us through. But I didn't keep up the work required, the ongoing maintenance"

This is what I did too. You're right - hindsite is so clear, isn't it??

So, the big question is...if we admit all this to ourselves, then admit it our H's, is there a chance we can forgive each other and repair all the damage? Of course, both would have to be willing to try, and I don't think my H feels it's worth it. So, now I'll have to learn to accept that our demise was 50/50 (when the last month I've been so willing to pass all the blame off on him) and know that I really DIDN'T do everything I could to save us, in spite of all my self-righteous comments.

God, I didn't need this. I wanted to be right. I wanted him to have no reason to stop loving me. But I gave him every reason in the world. How do I reconcile that and move on?!?!

[georgie]

I think this way we do move on but without the bitterness. We forgive them, we forgive ourselves, we try to learn and grow. That is the only way we can be set free from all of this. This will not happen today, but given time it will happen. The other way, we feel 'right' and bitter and it poisons us for the rest of our lives tainting all future relationships. This is just my opinion, I know I'm writing it as if it's gospel, but it's just my thoughts at this point. If I were to find out that she was moving in with him tomorrow, then of course I may go back to the 'hit man' plan - I really don't know.
We only know what we know at the time, life is busy with kids, work, commitments, it's not surprising that so many of us take our eyes off the ball.. it's not something we can beat ourselves up about - if we'd know better we would have done better. The only intelligent thing to do is to learn from it. I wish they taught these kind of life skills at school, I know I defnitely didn't get a chance to learn them at home and at least 50% of kids don't, then they go in to relationships and the cycle continues. At the very least we should teach basic communication skills to girls and boys.
It's not about guilt at this point - life is short, might as well focus on the more productive aspects as much as we can. I think initially the venting, crying, anger - are all very productive as they purge you, but in the long run it's forgiving and letting go that will free us.

[yogamad]

I agree with everything you're both saying. I'm sure in most relationship breakdowns, the problems are 50/50, no one is perfect all the time. I am the same as you RC, if H wasn't helping out enough around the house, instead of asking him to help more, I gave him the silent treatment hoping he'd take the hint. It's all about communication isn't it?

Hope you're both OK:o

[JWD]

arghhh bared my soul again and it logged me out. Too tired now, will post tomoz

[georgie]

I hate when that happens.. especially as I just realised that by right clicking and using the undo function I could have salvaged a lot of my 'best' work rather then starting again and having to delve deep in to my emotional psyhe..which is all very tiring and results in me eating chips etc. to restore my strength.

My daughters softball team just won, think they are in to the district competition now - things are looking up.
I AM SENDING POSITIVE MESSAGES TO THE UNIVERSE - GIVE ME THAT JOB SO I DONT HAVE TO FEEL GUILTY ABOUT THE FACT THAT I AM NOT APPLYING FOR ANY.. I WILL WORK HARD AND BE GOOD!!!
Hmm suddenly having the urge to look for information re: how to control and change the mind of and get back the person that left you.... god it really is like trying to wean yourself off crack or something, one minute I'm perfectly alright the next I'm like a zombie keying in google searches like "get your husband back free"...what an IDIOT!! of course if anyone has found out anything useful of that nature be sure and let me know.. I know about the No Contact/pretend you've moved on stuff, I'd like something that would work instantly please.

I will now finish the laundry, clean the house, go to the gym, meet the inlaws, pick up the kids, go to the local shopping centre to buy a couple of birthday gifts, find out 'what not to wear' during the live appearance by Trinny and Susanah, come home looking sensational without having spent a cent(ok, come home looking about 2 hours older then when I left), go to the local charcoal chicken shop - kids favourite treat - come home watch a movie with them... Day 41 DONE and dusted. If it didn't kill me today, then it must have made me a little bit stronger right?
I'm hoping at some point - maybe day 365 I'll be saying - just slipping in to my size 6 outfit (ha ha ha), flicking my longer newly blonder hair, checking my perfect make up before heading out with MR Wonderful for a night of romance and indulgence.. OK I'd settle for not really worried about what I'm doing, because all in all life is good and I'm not in to worrying about anything or anyone outside my control any more.
I better get on with it - otherwise my day will turn out more like - in-laws decided to drop round early - found me on internet surrounded by mess, laundry half done, me not yet showered - you know how it goes..

[JWD]

LOL you make me laugh, bet if I was on crack I wouldn't end up so skint

right email me devastated09@googlemail.com I have every ebook going and as you can see, they paid for themselves LOL

[RayCub]

Day 41 sounds not too bad - gives me something to aim for!

I'm not sure what day to start counting from...is day one "The Fight", or is it the day I asked him to move out, or is it the actual day he moved out, or is it 15 years ago when he first started lying to me? Jeeze, I don't know how to count days back THAT far...guess I'll go with moving out day...which makes this Day11...wow, times flies when you're second guessing your life!

[JWD]

I deliberately haven't kept dates so I don't get reminded but it was near valentines day :-(

no one gave me a valentine, no flowers for me. He has never bought me flowers actually. That is selfish of me because he always bough i pods, mp4 things, would have loved flowers though. I think he is a shop-a-holic

[RayCub]

Flowers are nice, but he stopped buying them for me about two years ago - should've been a hint-and-a-half for my ass right there, but no...

[Ageing Grace]

Wow. What a flood of eloquence, insight & honesty! I agree that most breakups are pretty much 50/50. It takes two to make a marriage, and the same two to break it :(

Isn't it sad that it takes such a set-back to make us consider our own failings? Sadder still, though, for those who insist they played no part in their breakup ... and go on to make themselves (and someone else) unhappy all over again.

A healthy relationship does involve a constant shifting of power between the two - or, as somebody said, a see-saw. But - as I learned rather late in life - power isn't the same as control. Power's negotiated; control seeks to take power away from the other. If you agree that he'll choose where to go on holiday, it's power sharing. Control is booking the holiday without prior discussion.

Mr Grace #2 said I was manipulative. Both exes told me I always have to have the last word. My therapists accused me of being negative. All of the above are things I would have denied to the death ... sweet, lovely, cheery ole me?! Of course, they're all true. The only reason I didn't manipulate my first husband is because he was cleverer than #2, and more controlling!

My Mum, who sees herself as a paragon of sweetness and light, always looking on the bright side - she's often called Pollyanna, and takes it as a compliment - operates on two levels all the time. She's only aware of her positive side. Yet her first reaction to everything is negative: there isn't time, it costs too much, she hasn't got the right outfit, the place is a mess, you're too fat, you're doing it wrong, the burglars will get in ... etc, etc. You get the picture! She honestly, genuinely doesn't hear herself. She certainly doesn't realise she thinks that way.

She's perfect example of self-deceit ... and I was the same. I remember when my husband and I bought a flat to renovate (and live in). He saw it first, and took me along to view it. It was a brilliant find; he'd done really well! I nosed around it, reeling off a list of all the works that needed to be done. When we got back in the car, he was fuming. I hadn't said anything about what a great find it was. I hadn't mentioned how lovely it would be after renovation. Instead, I'd delivered a long list of problems. No wonder he was miffed :o

Everyone in my family argues. We consider it debate - we're all interested in exploring ideas, and for a very long time I didn't notice how furiously each of us will strive to win. To this day I love a good argument - but I now avoid arguing with two of my close family members: with them, it's more of a war than a debate ... and I no longer care to fight to the death over an idea (usually half-baked at that!) When I think about how many friends and lovers I've done it to, I'm so sorry!

I was going to post about this in Yogamad's thread but thought it suited better here ... The less rational the view, the more furiously it's defended. It definitely comes from a need to control - and also out of fear.

If Brother A complains about a neighbour's boundary encroachment (to hijack Yogamad's example), I can talk through it with him. We might come up with a possible solution, we might not. We might decide it isn't a problem - and, slowly, get to what's really on his mind.

With Brother B, the conversation does not take place. He's focused all his anger on this one issue for today. I'm expected to take his side (preferably after putting up resistance, so he feels validated) and then cheer him on as he makes a complete tit of himself over a non-issue

The difference is that A's prepared to consider whether his anger is really about something else and, if so, to move on to that. Whereas B, plainly, doesn't want to (or can't) identify his real cause for feeling bad. Once he's decided it's all about the garden fence, he's free to NOT feel angry about his real problem. If I then point out the neighbour isn't doing anything wrong, I'm trying to take away his angry excuse - and showing it up as unreasonable. He doesn't want either of those outcomes, so he'll become more and more fervent about how wrong the neighbour is.

If he succeeds in forcing me to defend the neighbour, that means I'm wrong, too - and he now has TWO excuses to be angry. Result!
Needless to say, I prefer not to do it anymore - my main reason for doing Transactional Analysis was to learn how to break out of 'games' like this - but I played them without thinking, throughout my marriages. Ouch.

I owe a big thanks to 30-Odd here, too! I still felt uneasy about another criticism from friends & partners - I'm aware it's something my Mum does, too, and gets on my nerves no end - but I couldn't see how it worked. It's cross-examination!!! I've done that SO many times!

Not just, "Did you have a good time, was anybody I know there?"
But: "Who was there, who did they come in with, what time did you eat, did you dance, what to, who with, did you go anywhere else, how did you get that mud on your trouser cuffs, HOW MUCH WAS THE TAXI (trap question), did you drink any water, that's not enough I'll get you a Coke, do you need some paracetamol, you should eat something, I'll get you a sandwich. What's the matter?"
See how interested and how caring I was? Sure I was How about intrusive, suspicious and controlling, AG? Hmmm.

My mother, yesterday: "I didn't know you'd had an ulcer! You never told me. When was it? Was it actually diagnosed as an ulcer? How did they diagnose it? What d'you mean, it got better? How? What precautions do you take against it coming back? Do you realise you shouldn't drink, eat fatty foods, stay up all night, eat acidic foods - etc!" (I had this ulcer 22 years ago.)
See how interested and caring she is?

It's not about interest and concern - it's about ownership, pure and simple. My mother wants to own my bodily functions (eek) ... and I wanted to own every second my partner spent away from me. Especially if he was having a good time.

I'm not at all surprised my marriages broke down. Certainly, my partners were screwed-up men with some deeply unpleasant characteristics. I don't find that surprising, either - all the sane ones must have run a mile the minute I opened my mouth! And vice-versa, of course. When your friends say "Nobody else would have him" - they probably mean it. I thought they were joking ... !

I wish I could say I'm totally secure, perfectly reasonable and absolutely stable these days. But I'm not, of course, I'm flawed & human ;) At best, though - and I'm proud of this - I come with a gold-plated guarantee of a genuinely open mind and full comprehension that everyone sees the world differently.

Next time: I want a man who's done therapy - successfully!

AG xx

[Ageing Grace]

Flowers are nice, but he stopped buying them for me about two years ago - should've been a hint-and-a-half for my ass right there, but no...

Yes. But ... what would you/should you do with a sign like it?
I haven't a clue?

:confused:

later:

Start larding on the love, perhaps? Or, depending on personal style, laying off?

It's easy to say flowers don't mean anything; for some people, they don't. Especially people with hay fever! I buy my own, my girlfriends & I give them to each other, in my old job I got flowers from clients all the time. This doesn't mean I have enough flowers, it means I like getting them :)

Somebody else's love tokens might be cakes, or chocolates, or theatre tickets. Whatever - if they stop, it's easy to dismiss (er, easy-ish) but it does mean something significant. I feel this is more Raymond's territory than mine ...

[JWD]

Well I always used to hear people say 'he doesn't buy me flowers anymore' and think I was glad H didn't start because I'd think it was a sign if he stopped. I think too much doesn't I. I didn't however, think that about him say I love you.

By the time I'm over this and have my answers/forgiveness/acceptance I'll be under all the flowers

[Ageing Grace]

By the time I'm over this and have my answers/forgiveness/acceptance I'll be under all the flowers

Ah, but you'll look amazing ;)

[30-odd]

Isn't it sad that it takes such a set-back to make us consider our own failings? Sadder still, though, for those who insist they played no part in their breakup ... and go on to make themselves (and someone else) unhappy all over again.



AG xx

now this really struck a cord,,,, my wife still believes that she had no great part in our break up and claims that sh eis a wonderful person and mother!!!!!!! untill she accects her part in our faliure i fear she will continue to make mistakes!!!! i do care fo rher and i do love her but i also understand her part in the mess we made!!! yes i was a control freak but she did allow it for a long time until she thought enough but was a break up the best solution iam not sure,,,, there are 2 kids who ar ealso involved in this and i do fear that this will scar them!!!


30

[jahdog]

poor kids. can not imagine. my dog is scarred. if i say her name or mamma she runs away.

[Ageing Grace]

Thanks for your replies, 30!
i fear she will continue to make mistakes!!!!
30
Yeah, she probably will ... You know how one of the hardest parts about bringing up kids, is letting them fly? Well, I'm not trying to suggest you treat your missus like a child, but the same holds true. It's 50/50 more or less; it always is.

Work on your 50, and let her 50 play itself out. That's the only way to end up happier :)

love,
AG

[Ageing Grace]

my dog is scarred. if i say her name or mamma she runs away.

Couldn't be anything to do with your tone of voice when when you say it, could it? :p

Hope you're having a better day today :)

xx