I can't believe this is happening!

[RayCub]

I don't even know where to start!! My husband and I have been together for almost 15 years, married almost 12. We have two children - 10 and 5. My husband turned 40 two years ago, and then lost his younger brother (37) to a sudden disease two months later. We've been living in my hometown for almost six years, with his hometown being and hour-and-a-half away. Where we live now has very few people our age to socialize with and is very small and rural. I'm just trying to give some background information here to set everything up, I guess. I know my husband has been less than happy for a while now, but when I questioned him about it, he always said he loved me, our kids and our life together. He acknowleged our lack of a social life outside of each other, but said we would make it through. We both have very good jobs here, and the kids have their grandparents and family, and you can't just disreagard that stuff. Anyway, last summer we had a huge fight and he accused me of not trusting him. I did at that point. Things got really ugly - he said some very nasty things - but we seemed to get past things and move on. I KNEW we still had issues, but chose to focus on the good things about us. Then last October, he got in touch with an old lover on Facebook. I had his password to his linking hotmail accoount so I spied and found out she was declaring her love for him after four days of communication. I couldn't see what he was writing back. (She lives on the other side of the country with her hubby and three kids). I confronted him and said his lying was worse than my spying. We really talked it out, he and I wrote her a PFO letter and he blocked her. things seemed to get back on track again, but, by then, I was consumed with checking his hotmail to see if she - or any other woman from his past - would crop up. Nothing ever happened again, except she got in touch with him through a third part to tell him she was sorry...on Valentine's day. Of course, I saw the message but couldn't tell him the truth. I managed to bring up her name in a round about way and gave him EVERY opportunity to tell me about her contacting him, but he didn't. And he continued to somewhat justify her actions in the first place. I know he will always have feelings for her - he told me that - and that freaks me out. Anyway, I was feeling very out of sorts by the communication but thought Iwas covering my behaviour. Then he got drunk while on the phone with his sister one night (a four hour phone call), and I got pissed off at him for staying on the phone for so long when he had been working so much (all over valentine's) and I wanted him to pay attention to me and for us to spend some time together. Plus I was jealous that he seems so able to talk to his sister for so many hours but not to me. When I said something, he completely lost it. He told me I NEVER trusted him, that our marriage was a cancer, that the person he used to be was as dead as his brother, that he didn't know who he was anymore, he didn't know what he wanted, and that he was going to do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted and he didn't give a *&^% what I thought. He really tore me a new one. I tried talking to him over the next couple of days but he was very angry and cold and hurtful and bitter, and blamed me for everything that has caused him to be unhappy in his life. He's calmed down since then and is now very sad and quiet. He says he's angry at himself for letting this happen, that he's 50/50 on wanting to stay or leave, that he doesn't know what he wants, how this happened, where he's going with his life, etc. We've been very civil with each other the last couple of days and have talked a lot. I'm in counselling (only one session so far), and he has his first appointment on Friday, but he's not sure if it will affect the outcome of anything. I've told him he has to leave, but went back on it and told him he could stay as long as he's in counselling and honestly trying. The problem I'm having is that I think he's lying to me and himself when he says he doesn't know what he wants. I think he's made up his mind to leave but is too scared to admit it. Unfortunately, we've been "intimate" with each other in the last few days, and he apologized afterwards and said he didn't want to lead me on, which leads me to believe he's made up his mind already. He says he loves me, but I don't really believe him anymore. I told him I was trying to prepare for the worse, and he didn't contradict me. I'd like to tak to my counsellor about this, adn to give him time to talk to his counsellor, but I don't think I can wait, or that it will do much good anyway. I asked him to come home earleir tonight from work so that I could talk to him without the kids. I'm going to tell him to leave. I can't take this anymore. It's killing me, and I'm a complete basketcase no matter what I do. he was the centre of my universe for 15 years, and now I feel like my world is falling apart. Everyone tells me to be strong, and so many people are offering SO MUCH advice, but no one seems to get that I'm dying inside.

[JWD]

I know you're dying inside. I do. And nothing can take away the pain. I too got the don't want to lead you on stuff.

Have you been to the Doctors, call samaratins.

All you can do is give him space until he tells you what is going on.

I do know you are dying inside.


Please keep posting. xxx I'm not going to tell you to stay strong because I know how irritating it is at the beginning. Let your friends and family support you and vent vent vent on here when you can.

You're not alone.

We'll all help each other through this.

[RayCub]

Thanks for responding so quickly. And for not telling me to be strong. It's good to know other people know exactly how I feel. I just talked to him at work, and he's going to try to come home early to talk. I just wish I knew if I was doing the right thing by telling him to leave before consulting my counsellor.

[JWD]

Well they say it's best to stay together but I had to put my H out. I was and still am destroying myself. Everywhere you look they say don't plead, beg, cry, pressure and give it time. But we just want it fixed don't we. I just needed him away because he was still texcting her and I watched him become a cold arrogant monster. Don't expect too much from the counsellor, it's going to be a long long road.

When he comes home, listen, listen to what he is saying. DO NOT INTERUPT with buts or belittle what he is telling you. He needs to get off his chest what is going on and if you keep pressuring him, he'll run off or clam up.

All I got was don't know. It is an extremely frustrating situation to be in. Get yourself some calms, deep breath and just be ready to hear anything and everything or nothing at all.

Don't panic. Just listen and deal with what comes up when the time is right. Hopefully he will go to counselling with you. Just let him know that it's not a pressure tactic to fix your marriage, but just to help you both understand what is happening to you both.

Wish I could take away the stabbing pain in your heart and the lump in your throat.

SENDING MASSIVE MASSIVE CUDDLES AND POSITIVE THOUGHTS

KEEP POSTING

just rant away, you don't have to excuse yourself to any of us here.

[JWD]

I'm just off to counselling, I'll check back in on you when I get back.

If you need to chat, I'll probably be up all night.

Hope you get a clearer picture of what is going on tonight.

[Sheila]

Raycub your post made me feel so sad. I haven't been posting on here for a while, although I have been reading.
I took my husband back a couple of weeks ago and now find myself back in square 1....hes gone again.
I'm at the stage now where I dont think facebook, mobiles or email addresses are any good for relationships well, not for mine anyway. They are all to capable of concealing too many secrets.
I too used to log into his accounts as he wasn't clever enough to conceal passwords etc.
I wanted him back so desperatley when he left (first time around), I dont believe he wanted to come back, his mind was made up. I truly believe he just wanted family and friends to see him doing the right thing, I dont believe he had any intention of staying.
People will tell you to be strong and yes, of course you need to be, we all do, but that is so much easier said than done, Im sure like me, you are feeling very weak and vulnerable at the moment.
I totally understand the pain you are going through, as I am going through it yet again. I feel like my stomach is burning and as it rises up, I feel sick.
The one thing that we all need to cling on to here is the fact that its us that have been wronged, and we deserve better.
I know my marriage is over, I cant keep taking him back when he has a good day and watching him go when he has a bad one, but I really hope that maybe something positive will happen for you.
I am so sorry this post is a negative one, but I am thinking of you
x

[georgie]

Rayclub, you are not alone. Being strong is a slow process, you get a tiny little bit stonger every day. I made the mistake of pressuring and I think it made things so much worse. I am now trying to back off, although in my case I think it's too late as my H would now find it hard to come back in to our social network (he's very concerned about what people think of him), and basically I think he's concluded that I'm not worth the effort. Mid Life Crisis seems to fit the bill for all these guys (read about it on line if you have not already, it certainly is not what I thought it was), but that does not mean there is a solution. JWD gave some great advice - it's time for listening. You also need to try and get on with your life as best you can, show your best self to the world, remind him what he's missing, you may realise that your not missing much with his absence!

[JWD]

Such good advice from you all.

We're not at fault. We may have faults but we didn't go seeking a solution in someone else.

Sheila, I too think it's all to do with the looking bad and looking like they are trying. And we thought we were the weak ones!

[Ageing Grace]

we've been "intimate" with each other in the last few days, and he apologized afterwards and said he didn't want to lead me on

That made me cry. How utterly despairing you must have felt.
It's a crap thing for a teenager to say, let alone a grown man to his wife. The arrogance!! Sorry: this is your thread, not my rant ... :o

One thing you have on your side, Ray, is your fellow-sufferers here in this forum. It's not a whole lot of comfort, but - if you ever feel like you're going mad - you know you have the support of others, who are going through the same thing.

It's very Ok to cry. A lot. Good luck, and take care
AG

[JWD]

How are you today Raycub?

[RayCub]

Hi everyone. I haven't been near the internet for a few days. I left early from work on Wednesday and ended up taking Thursday and Friday off.

I met him at home on Wednesday afternoon and asked him if he wanted to work on our marriage. When he gave me the "I don't know" answer AGAIN, I told him he had to leave, and I had the want ads in my bag waiting for him. The decision was the hardest I've ever made, and I panic every minute of every day that I totally screwed up.

While he was making plans to leave, he would check with me and report on every step of his progress - just like he would for any situation before all this mess happened. When I told him a few things that had to be done, he responded (more than once) that he just wanted to do what I wanted him to. It made me so angry to hear that! I told him that the only thing I wanted him to do was fight for our marriage and he wasn't willing to do that so he shouldn't dare tell me that! He admitted that he shouldn't. I also told him that I never wanted him to leave and he said, "I didn't want to leave so soon. I wanted to get counselling first." So I said, "Yes, you wanted to get counselling for YOURSELF and THEN leave. I don't see the point in dragging out the inevitable. I may have asked you to leave, but make no mistake - this was YOUR decision. Three of us in this family didn't want this. We had it forced upon us!"

We told the kids on Thursday afternoon. Our oldest got really quiet and angry and stomped off to her room. The youngest cried and said she wanted Daddy to live with us forever. When we were telling them, he said we had been talking a lot and decided Daddy should live somewhere else for "awhile". When the kids talked about him coming back, I was the one who had to tell then he wasn't coming back. The baby cried, and so did my husband - first time I've ever seen him cry, and my immediate reaction was "I hate you!". I can't believe that a person can be so selfish as to put his family through something like this...to put his own needs ahead of his children's. It baffles me, and makes me realize just how screwed up he really is, because he loves those kids like there's no tomorrow. To do this to them...God, I don't know what to think anymore.

They haven't seen him for two days. He ran away to his parent's house, and let his family enable him. They are very passive about everything that happens in life, and they just told him to do what he thinks he has to for himself. I just want one member of his family to yell at him, "What the hell is wrong with you??!?!?!" But that would NEVER happen.....This is the forth separation/divorce among his siblings (six living, oldest bro has experienced two)...I think that says a lot about the fact that he tried to ignore all the problems in our marriage until they bubbled up and exploded, instead of trusting me to talk out the problems together. It's what his family does: ignores things in hopes they will go away, with this whole Eeyore "Oh, well" attitude. I guess he's not quite as accomplished as the rest of them.

I'm sad and angry and hurt and still confused. I feel used and violated and now doubt every happy moment that happened in our 15 years together. My counsellor asked if I had happy memories and I do...lots of them. She said my perceptions of those events are valid and to rmember them, to look at pictures, to reminisce...it will help in the grieving process. She also said that he sounds like a lost soul who will crash HARD at some point in the near future.

I wrote him a letter today to leave for him when he was leaving. I told him he's the love of my life and probably always will be. I told him that had I had any other choice to protect my heart, I would have chosen that option; that I never wanted any of this to happen; that all I wanted was for him to love me fully, completely, without reserve - that way I love him. I wrote that I fully accept my part in all this and that I wished he had come to me so long ago to work on things; that I realize that his problems started before I even came on the scene when he lost his dream and never found another one, and that I would have helped him find one if I had only known. I offered to help him still if he would let me in, and that I would be here for him, as I always have. I told him I would be willing to give us a second chance if he was willing to get marriage counselling and committ to me 100%. I begged him to get counselling SOON, that I didn't want him to stay lost forever, and to find his way back to us. I also told him that's how I feel today, but I'm not sure how I'll feel next week, or next month, so he's better get help soon, if there's even one fragment of him that wants this to work. I also told him though, that if he's 100% sure this is over, then this is truly goodbye and I wished him nothing but joy and happiness. I said I would eventually fall out of love with him and my heart would heal...I asked him to please weigh his decisions carefully and to believe in us. I reminded him that in his Valentine's Day email to me he said that we make a wicked sweet team and thanked me for always sticking by him when the chips seem so far down. I said the chips were as far down as they could be and I was still going to stick by him, but to know that I can't wait forever.........

I don't know what else to say........

Thank you, guys, for all your comments and support and everything...it means SO much to me!!

[JWD]

I don't know, If I ever hear that again, I will run a mile. I think you need to (here we go) STAY STRONG, he sounds like he is so confused but you keep doing what you are doing, he will soon see the inner strength of you.

Listen, we're going to get through this, we will. It's horrific, it's awful, it's heart wrenching horrific but we WILL drag ourselves up.

I can only imagine how much harder it is for you with kids. You're already amazing with how you have handles this.

You've done everything you can. be proud of yourself.

I so relate to wanting his mum to shake him. Mine are just babying him. Makes me sick.

We're going to do this.

RIGHT.

xxxxx

[Sheila]

Im not in a good position to offer advice at the moment, but believe me, those kids already know what an amazing Mum they have.
You look after yourself and stay strong and healthy for yours and their sakes.
They will never leave you, they will always be there for you, you take care
xx

[RayCub]

So, I had left the letter on some shetts, towells and blankets I left on our bed for him to take to his new place. He took all the supplies and left the letter on the bed. He also wrote one of his own saying,

"Hi. I know you said a million times the last week not to say thanks again but really...Thanks! So much.

Thanks for all the great memories and the two beautiful children. The best! Right now, H & C have been the hardest part of my agreeing on this space to think and heal.

Yes, I will still be seeking council - that's for me and no one elase right now...To grow and get myself back...that's my dream right now...at any cost, because I can't go on living a charade and pretending to be 100% into the marriage and living a lie.

We've had a lot of ups and downs just like any other couple and maybe someday, with a little help, I'll be able to just dwell on the goo stuff and allow my emotions to move past all that...crap...

But you and I both know I've not been able to do that for a long time and that's not healthy, nor is it fair to anyone - That's why, as parents, we need to really work hard at being civil so that at best the girls know they're still loved as much as ever.

Thanks for taking the time to read this - means a lot."


And that was it. I poured my heart out to him, and all I got back was "Thanks for the memories". What a cop-out. When he wrote that he had to do this no matter the cost, all I could think was the "cost" is losing his family - his adoring wife and his two trusting, innocent daughters who did nothing but worship the ground he walked on. When I told him he gave me nothing inthe letter, he said it was all he had to give. I told him that any little bit of hope i had left was crushed now and he just doesn't care. He just looked at me. So I said, "Now I have to stop caring." I told him to have a good life and walked out the door.

We went to my parent's house afterwards where they just let me cry and get it all out. I hit rock bottom yesterday, so now I have to focus on my girls and myself and getting our life back to our "new" normal. I've talked to my kids so much - they completely know they can come to me at any time to talk about anything, and that they can talk to their grandparents, other family members and teachers, who all love them and are there for them. They know this isn't their fault and that it isn't their "job" to try to get their father to change his mind. I've told them to focus on all the good parts of their lives, to not let this overshadow everything. And I've told them that whatever they're feeling, it's not wrong to feel that way - sadness, anger, confusion, frustration, and even happiness...I told them to not feel guilty if they find themselves laughing and smiling during their day. I just need them to keep talking - to not hold everything in and ignore what they're feeling. We're already suffering the consequences of how well that works.

I'm starting to dig myself out of the hell I've been living in these past three short weeks. I know I'm going to have more bad days than good, but I'm keeping the faith that the sun will shine again for me at some point.

I'm going to keep posting on here so I can keep reading all your wonderful feedback. I really appreciate all the support!!!!

[JWD]

Be very proud of yourself Raycub. Just keep posting when you want to rant or to keep you from thinking how unfair it all is.

x

[RayCub]

When I got home last night he was there with the girls. He was supposed to take them out for the two hours he had them, and he did for a bit - took them to his new place and out to supper, but then came back to my place and did laundry and was packing up a little more when I arrived, and didn't leave when I got there! And then he had the audacity to ask me if he could have a few more days to get his stuff packed, and said the stuff he couldn't take with him he would push to the back of the closet or box up and leave it in the basement, until he gets a new place after May...and I AGREED!!! What the hell is WRONG with me?!?!? And then to further rub salt in my wounds, he said, in a couple of months, he'd like to come over and go through the photo albums to get copies of some of our pictures...

He's gone. I mean really, really gone. And feels nothing about it - doesn't seem to care one bit about the hell he's putting me through. Where did the man go that I loved so much, that was so nice and kind and gentle and loving?? Did I misread him all these years? Was he always a cold-hearted bastard and I just didn't see it? Does he enjoy hurting me? Does that make it easier on him?

And I'd love to think that he's going to fall at some point, but I just can't make myself believe that. He'll work his 48 hours-a-week on day shift, talk on the phone to his supporters during the evenings and listen to music so he won't be lonely, then he'll have the girls on Friday night into Saturday, then drive to his hometown every Saturday night probably to hang around with his other friend who is doing this exact same thing to his wife. Then when he's working night shift, he'll work all night, sleep all day, be off on Thursday, which will be the only day he'll have no work or the girls, then have the girls again on Friday, and the same pattern for the weekend...and that will just continue. He won't fall. He's putting work into making this new life better - he's actually making contact with people and getting out there and making an effort - none of which he did while we were married. He'll live his single life and be happy, and he'll put two-and-two together and figure out he was happy when he was younger and single, and now he's happy again being single, so the thing that makes him unhappy is being married to me...being settled down.

So he'll NEVER be back, and I don't even know that I want him back, but I at least would like to know that at some point in all of this he'll feel badly about what he's done and feel the guilt of ri[pping our family apart and feel as lonely and unloved as he's made me feel...is that too much to ask???

[JWD]

No it's not too much to ask. They have no soul.

[georgie]

Raycub I so relate to everything you are going through, how can the person you share your life with for years suddenly become a stranger. Your H's behaviour is so similar to mine, the talks about what he wants, what he needs, what he thinks - every sentence includes 'I' and 'me' but if the word selfish is suggested to him he's outraged. Mine tells me it's not my fault but then everything he says thereafter seems to imply that I and the life I made with him are found wanting in every way.
Everthing I've read about MLC seems to fit the bill, but this is like some kind of Mirage for those of us lost in the desert, it gives you some hope, lets you think maybe it's not entirely personal that it's something they are going through that is not in their control - but then just when the little flame of hope is starting to spark up again you are told it may last forever, they may never 'come back' to being the person you knew.
I am trying to stay calm and strong, which since this is the first time I've been testedin this way, I'm discovering are not my natural reactions - I want to plead and somehow get it through to him that he is losing the most precious thing anyone can ever have a loving loyal family, he's not just leaving me he's leaving our wonderful kids and the life we've built for 16 years, a few short weeks ago he was still saying he loves me - now he talks to me as if we just met on a bus or something. Is it emotional blackmail to say that? I hope not, I honestly think what we are trying to do is fight to protect what is right and best and what ultimately they will live to regret losing more then anyone - are we delusional? Sorry, I've had a ramble.

WE are the strong ones Raycub, all of the people on here trying to work their way through this, trying to face it as best we can. We will be ok, We will rebuild and recover and come out the other end as stronger people. I honestly believe the same cannot be said about those that walk away without doing everything in their power to save their marriages and families.
You have my full support .
I know what you mean about enablers by the way. My sister in law who is my friend (!?!) let slip that she's done my H's laundry and cooked him dinners - COME ON SISTERHOOD SURELY WE CAN DO BETTER THEN THAT GIRLS!

[JWD]

I agree with what you say about MLC. instead of him just telling the truth, I've looked up everything I can on EMLC and depression. It was the only thing that made sense to me because he was such a good liar.

[RayCub]

I keep going back and forth trying to decide if he has MLC, depression or if it's just because he doesn't love me anymore. I go 'round and 'round and never come up with any answers.

I keep reading his Valentine's Day message to me, which I KNOW isn't healthy, but I can't force myself to delte it yet. I just can't understand how he can tell me how much he loves me and that he's SO HAPPY (!!!), and then six days later, drop the bomb....ugh...it's so frustrating trying to decifer the truth from the big lies and from the bullsh*it he tells me just to make himself feel better. God, sometimes I just want to punch him in the face...

He left a message on my machine last night asking if it was still okay that he comes by on Thursday to pick up some more stuff, but then said Thursday might not be good for him because his phone is still not hooked up and the tech might be there on Thursday, so would Friday be okay? And he ended it with telling me to kiss the girls for him...it was all very friendly. He knew we were at my parents' house, but he wouldn't dare call us there. Coward. I didn't call him back. he can call me if he needs to, but I refuse to call him for anything anymore.

I kept the message on the phone to be able to hear his voice though...how pathetic is that? I'm just not ready to let go yet...

I took the girls to a movie last night and as we were driving through the village where he now lives, I asked my daughter, "Does you dad live around here?"...and then I had to stop because I couldn't believe those words had actually come out of my mouth. It's so surreal...

When am I going to move on to another emotion? I'm so tired of feeling this way...

[jahdog]

sounds like all you ladies have a husband doing you wrong. my wife is doing me wrong. remember all men are not pigs and i will try to remember that all women are not evil. we are all getting the shaft in our relationships. i could never have done to my wife what she is doing to me. i do not see why this is happening to us all.

[RayCub]

jahdog, I will never think that all men are pigs. I'm not one for blanket opinions or statements. I think my H is just not one of the "good ones" out there which completely blows my mind, as I always referred to him as one of the nicest guys I'd ever met in my whole entire life. I feel so stupid. I can't believe my best friend was such a liar.

So, no, not all men are pigs, and I won't even refer to my H as one - that would be an insult to pigs.

[jahdog]

wow, your comment made me at least chuckle. first even remote humor i have experienced since wife "runoft". Peace.

[RayCub]

Glad I could make you chuckle, even a tiny bit. I'm fairly known for my sense of humour, so I'm looking forward to getting it back when this hell is over. That's one thing I'll never let him take from me. It feels way too good to laugh.

It is now my goal to get a complete laugh-out-loud response from you!! It's good to have a dream...

[JWD]

Ray, you sound just like me and your pig sounds just like mine. What's wrong with them? WAKE UP, I've just spent the last hour asking my friend do they just fall out of love, just like that, is it me, did I bug him?

NO IT'S NOT US, THEY'RE BOTH SELFISH AND IMMATURE -

Honestly, what did he have to moan about, nothing, he doesn't know. Makes me so angry that he can just walk out like that and to top it all, still insisting to people that we just couldn't make it work, Em yeah, I had 5 weeks notice and you only attended two counselling session and lied in them both. How can he just literally switch off like that?

That morning we we cuddled up all night, when I came in an hour before he said it he said I love you. Oh, I'll go round and round in circles trying to make sense of it.

Think he is going to be bad re money too, so worried about that now. So selfish, 3 different lawyers telling me different things.

He thinks I'm just going to disappear while he sets himself up for life here. He has another thing coming if I can help it.

Never in a million years would you have said he would do this. Never. He is not even being nice to me, why?

I'm going put tomorrow after work and I'm going to see if I can go the whole day not talking about him cos I bet he's not sitting there thinking about me.

rant over :-)

[JWD]

Anyway, I'm done blaming myself. whatever the problem is or was as far as I'm concerned its in the past. Sick thinking about him.

I'm going to sit tight in this house and do absolutely nothing :-)

[Ageing Grace]

Every single time I've heard a wife saying her husband's being horrid to her because of a mid-life crisis (I said it too!) - it's turned out there was another woman in the picture.

My conclusion is this: Mid-life crisis can cause fashion disasters, unfortunate vehicle purchases, unflattering hair styles and designer health club membership. It doesn't cause horridness to spouse.

What causes said horridness is: Infidelity leads to guilt. Guilt leads to feeling bad. Feeling bad leads to wanting to take it out on someone. Take out bad feelings on spouse. Feel more guilty. Turn to Other Significant Other for reassurance not bad person. Reassurance provided. Fall in love with OSO due to adoring sympathy. Spouse suspicious. Feel guilty ... ...

Actually I think the acquisition of an OSO can be a mid-life symptom, but the horridness isn't.
And - I don't know about you, but I was a tad disgusted by the thought that my dearly beloved was capable of treating a relationship like a new car! I considered hanging on in there but, by the time he'd got tired of his new plaything ... I didn't like him any more.

AG

[RayCub]

I've come to the conclusion that I'm mourning more than just my marriage and the future I thought was ahead of me. I'm mourning my husband, quite literally. The man I married is dead; he no longer exists. The man who replaced him is an unfeeling, cold, manipulative, hurtful bastard. Had I met this man 15 years ago, I would never have had an iota of interest in him whatsoever.

When my H and I had the "big" fight last month (a month tomorrow, for the record) he told me the W inside him was as dead as his brother, and I didn't listen (thought he was just being dramatic) but, for once, he was telling me the truth: the old W just isn't there anymore.
I see no glimpses of the man he used to be. I don't know if the man I married was the "real" W, or if this is the "real" W, as he said he's been pretending for so long. I guess it really doesn't matter though, does it?

So, from now on , I'm going to treat myself as less of a (future) ex-wife, and more of a widow, because that's how I truly feel. I'm going to try to treat this new man in my life as a stranger, because that's what he is to me. Unfortunatley, I have to trust this stranger with my kids, so I'm hoping, for their sakes, he's not too much a stranger with them.

I feel like having a funeral...........

[Ageing Grace]

as dead as his brother

That's such an odd choice of expression, it strongly suggests he's nowhere near coming to terms with the loss of his brother. You've probably thought that yourself?

Not that it helps you much. If he's choosing to avoid his distress rather than deal with it, he'll make a mess and you get the fallout :(

We do experience grief at the end of a marriage, Ray, what you wrote wasn't melodramatic. It's entirely appropriate.

How ironic that your grief may have been caused by his refusal to grieve properly for his brother ....

Sending you virtual flowers and vodka -
AG

[RayCub]

AG...

Appreciate the flowers!!! Appreciate the vodka even more!!! LOL

No, you're absolutely right - he's never dealt with his brother's death; I'm not sure how many in his family actually have. thay all tend to ignore things in the hopes they will go away. That's the reason I'm in this mess to begin with...

His brother was only 37, and it was a sudden weird illness. He dies two months after my H turned 40. My H's father and oldest brother couldn't deal with what was going on, so my H had to step up to the plate as "head" of the family, so to speak. he was the one to tell teh doctors to turn off the machines, and he was the one to lean over his brother's body and tell him it was okay to go now. It was devastating on him, and he never showed it; he never got angry about the unfairness of it all, he never cried (at least never in front of me), and he never discussed how he was feeling with anyone.

And I played a huge part in all of it. I was with him every minute of every day during the whole ordeal. I went to the hospital, I slept on hard chairs in the waiting rooms, I questioned the doctors when they came to tell us stuff (actually, sometimes I was the ONLY one of 22 family members who did any questioning at all!!), adn I held my husband at night and told him I was there from him when he was ready to talk. But I was also the one who said something had to be decided; I told him his brother was suffering and someone had to tell the doctor's to stop,a nd no one else was going to do that. I encouraged him to do it, and while it was the right thing to do and I supported him completely, I'm thinking now that he holds me (at least partly) responsible - however inaccurate that is - for his brother's death.

How can he not hate me?

[Ageing Grace]

God, Ray, that's harsh.

Believe it or not, I have an idea of how it feels for you. My second father-in-law (I loved him to bits) came to the end of a long, debilitating illness two months before our wedding. The specialist talked to my fiance & me: I suppose Mr Grace's Mum was unable to hear the facts, so the doctor shoved them right in our faces.

Mr Grace then had to go & explain to his Mum - can you imagine that?! They switched the machines off and the four of us (fiance, his sister, Mum & me) sat by his bedside whilst all pretence of life was wound down. I didn't even know his mother that well - she's old-school restrained - she burst into hysterical tears and was then embarrassed. I cracked in my own way. I ran barefoot, very fast, several times around the hospital car park!

After that, his family went into coping mode - which, for them, meant endless communal gloom. Mr Grace kept doing peculiar things, which his Mum and sister thought were practical jokes but I was pretty sure were genuine, grieving, screwed-up mistakes. I played along with the joke thing, though, and ended up - well, playing along with the wedding. Because, by then, we'd all been laid raw and his family needed our wedding as therapy.

We achieved a fabulous day. It was a triumph of family creativity, which had been the idea from the start - but, by the time the day arrived, had become its sole purpose. He insulted me spectacularly, both in church and at the reception. Few people heard that. Those who did, told me to forget it because of his bereavement.

If there was any truth in our relationship - and I will never know - it was overwritten by the more enduring fact of death. For me, what could (should?) have been a joining experience became almost a curse. Despite my best efforts, I felt always as though he associated me and our marriage with his Dad's death.

If someone refuses to face hard facts head-on, those facts can't be discussed. The facts become the 'elephant in the room'. And, when people don't want to face their own feelings ... they'll prefer to blame whatever/whoever is handy for their bad feelings, even if they have to make up reasons. It seems to be easier for them, than admitting to the anger, guilt, regrets and sorrow which come with every grief package :(

In my case: dogged little cod-psychologist that I am, I dug away at the underlying problem and - again - I'll never know if I was getting anywhere, for my Dad died 12 months later, in a road accident. I didn't like my Dad but that doesn't make me happy he died before his time.

A fresh husband, still burning with unexpressed grief over his own father's death, does not make for a supportive partner at such a time. To be honest, his father's death marked the end of our marriage, before it even started. My father's marked the start of its end. I'm wondering why the hell I'm writing all this in your thread? It's taken quite a while, so I'm going to post it anyway ... apologies, Ray

When you say he holds you responsible for your brother's death ... No, he doesn't. But! he probably does associate you with it. Understandably? Maybe. Maybe he's just a frail human being, scared of his own feelings, and desperate to distance himself from them so he doesn't have to feel them.

It's hopelessly sad. I really feel for you. It's a heartbreaking, devastating process for anyone to go through, isn't it? And then to find your partner hasn't quite stepped up to the plate with you ... easier, for him, to join a different team. One that didn't see him at the bad time.

It's a total bummer. After you get enough distance, it's understandable.
I just deleted a whole paragraph there - you don't need it

After all this, the only thing I have to offer is - I feel for you.
Vodka. It's the way forward ;) (plus a haircut, new shoes, girlfriends & chocolate)

AG xx

[RayCub]

Got it: vodka, haircut, new shoes, girlfriends, chocolate!! Sounds like the recipe for healing! I'm going to throw in a new handbag, just for the hell of it, because my H always hated my handbag addiction!!! :)

I'll make sure, though, that my hairdresser, who happens to be a girlfriend, drinks the vodka AFTER the haircut!

So yesterday was a success for me. A tear-free day!! Woo Hoo!! I'm going to take my small victories where I can get them!

I read a really great posting on here yesterday from someone else's thread that inspired me to really focus onmyself. Then at lunch yesterday, a previous student came to visit me, who happens to be studying to be ancounsellor, and we talked for an-hour-and-a-half, and he just reconfirmed that this is all about my H, not about me.

Last night, my H was at my house packing up more stuff, so I drove the girls there to spend some time with him. I was extremely pleasant with him, and he tried to explain to me his packing process and what he was doing with his stuff, and I reminded him, very sweetly, that I want his dresser and closet EMPTY, and anything else he leaves to be boxed up and hidden in the basement. He tried to tell me about stuff he had for good-will (like he even know the meaning of that!!), and that we had no garbage bags left to put the stuff in, and I reminded him again of all the boxes we have, and to please get rid of it himself.

The next thing he mentioned was his first counselling session that afternoon, but I didn't bite at all; didn't even acknowledge that he talked to someone - all while being VERY SWEET!!! la la la...

Anyway, he wanted the girls to go with him to his hometown this weekend, but they both decided, on their own, not to go. They were invited to a friend's tonight for a sleep over and both want to go there instead. So then he said to me, "Well, maybe I'll take them next weekend instead", to which I replied, "Oh, I'm sorry. We're going to my sister's place next weekend." And he was all, "Oh. Well, um, yeah, that's okay...". then I left.

Later, he called up at my parent's house and asked me if I could go pick up the girls because his back seat was full of stuff. I told him I only had enough gas in my van to get to work the next morning, so he'd have to figure something out - again, I'm very freakin' SWEET!!! :) He dropped them off about an hour later.

So, that's my day...nothing ginormous, but enough for me to feel better about myself. This morning, I called my house to see if I had messages, and his mom called me last night. She left a message saying how sorry she was and how badly she felt about all of this, and she wanted to know how the girls and I were. It shook me, but I'm still okay. And now I know, when I call her back, that I'm going to be able to give my side of the story.

All in all, I'm not great, but man, does it feel good to not be sobbing every second of every day. It's like something just "clicked" inside me yesterday, and now I know that although I'll have a wicked number of terrible, sad, self-esteem searching, heart-wrenching, anger-filled, lost days to come, I'm going to be okay. I CAN DO THIS!!

Oodles of gratitude and positive vibes to you all!

Ray
XO

PS. Did I mention that I met with my girls' teachers yesterday evening (paren-teacher night), and that both my kids are brilliant??!? And beautiful?!?!? They get that from their mom...:)

[JWD]

Aww Ray, you're fab!

We are going to get through this and come out the other end. I'm on day 2 of no tears, still sadness but that's ok.

Had my first dream about him rushing back to me, got woken from it with the postman for a delivery for HIM LOL, It was a small victory as its the first dream I've had about him in which I didn't murder him in a horrible way.

His mum came round too, I love that woman so much, think it's the whole family I'm going to miss.

Anyway, I'm not going to worry any longer until I must. going to take a few weeks to chill and recover and then I'll deal with whatever comes my way on my own.

Determined that I won't call for anything at all.

Also he hasn't told her that he spoke about selling the house so I'm not. Still have my sneaky suspicion that he thinks I'm going to start proceeding so he can then say I divorced him, but I'm not. No longer care what he does with any money, I know I'll be fine without it.

I'm in a happier place right now.

If your kids have half the humour and resilience you do, they're going to do just fine too.

wish I could have a voddy with you, my fave drink

[jahdog]

Hey RC-sounds like a lot to deal with. so sorry. I too feel like the woman i married is dead. maybe replaced by doppleganger or alien or something else. i do not see how a spouse can do something like this. I saved a message on machine from day before she left. sounded like my precious wife. now its like that person is gone and replaced by something else. we talked 3 times since. very bad. hurts to not hear or say i love you when hanging up.only thing she will really say is i have made up my mind. this sucks for all of us.

[RayCub]

Hey JWD, I'm SOOOO glad to hear you're in a happier place right now. I'm on day two of no tears, as well!! Feels better, doesn't it?!?!?

We should have virtual vodka drinks together!!! And drink however much we like... I'm willing to bet that a virtual hangover isn't quite as bad as a real one!! ;)

Oh, and I can't wait to have the dreams of killing him in horrible ways. I didn't know I had that to look forward to!! :)

[JWD]

LOL, virtual cheers, ching ching

[RayCub]

So, it's Friday, I'm off work eight minutes ago, the sun is shining, it's the first day of spring, and I'm going to go buy a bottle of wine and treat myself nicely this evening and tonight.

I can't wait to get my internet at home tomorrow so I can come on here on the weekends and evenings!

[jahdog]

virtual cheers to all. first day of spring and still cold, freezing even. no spring here till a month or so. i am going to have a beer and give a toast to RC and JWD. then take nap and go to work. Wife called today and left message. has a question. like i am going to call her back. i never want to hear her voice again. peace out all.

[JWD]

good for you, you let her call at least a couple more times.

You're far too busy to hang around waiting for her to 'find herself' zzzzzzzzzz


cheers.

had a bit of a break down on your thread there:p

[jahdog]

JWD i am breakin down all over the place. its all good though.

[JWD]

LOL, mini melt down. ha found his stupid picture thing the girls gave him when he left and flung it out. oh and his card that dirty gurty wrote love XXXX bleaugh

[RayCub]

HI guys,

Not having the greatest day today...

Spent the first night in my house last night since he left. The kids were at a friend's house, so I was completely alone. Spent about four hours on the phone with a friend until I was so tired I just slipped into a coma.

This morning my folk showed up to help me rearrange my bedroom furniture and to help me get caught up with some housework. I think it might have been a little too soon for me to do that because I'm finding myself crying and wanting to hold his stuff (he hasn't gotten it all yet). I'm finding it really hard for more and more of him to disappear from here. MAybe that's why I've been so accommodating to him about taking his time moving his stuff? Makes sense, I guess...

Anyway, I was packing up a few little things that he missed from the bathroom, and I opened up a drawer and there was this envelope in it. I had been looking for it for ages because it had my daughter's birth certificate in it. Little did I know, though, that it also had a copy of our marriage certificate in it. Seeing it ripped my heart in shreds. All I could do was lay on teh bed and bawl my house out while everyone was downstairs trying to get rid of any sign of him for me.

Oh my god, I just want him to change his mind and come home. I want this to just be asick joke that can end at any time, now, please, please, please, please, please..................I don't want this to happen; I don't want to be without him...why can't he just love me?????

I don't know if i can do this................

[jahdog]

hey sounds like a rough day. i feel you. i am same. her stuff still here. i have not slept in our bed since she left. 1 month today. cant do it. i cant even sit on couch. all i see is her there telling me she is leaving, car packed, i do not want to try, i want divorce. ugh. i sleep on xtra pillowtop for matress in floor with my dog. today guy came by campaigning for some politician. asked for her. looking for the supporters. hit hard. he asked does she live here and i said no. felt like gonna get sick. i want her to come home. i might send her away if she did. ahhhhhh. RC i feel same as you do. its not a joke though. long hard road ahead to heal. we will make it though. we must be positive.

[georgie]

I understand how you feel your feelings and emotiions are normal you've been really hurt. This is bloody hard going. I look forward to my H coming and as soon as he gets here he upsets me. I think it's some kind of primitive self defence mechanism, I'm on heightened alert when he's around in case he hurts me some more - so sometimes I have to strike first. As soon as he goes I'm missing him again. But is it really him I'm missing, or my romanticised idea of him, I think more and more it's the latter. The conversations he has with me are so selfish and insensitive to my feelings - as I said on my thread he's asking me advice about the thread count of bed linen that he can get on special through work - for his bloody batchelor bed...what a w$nker! why do I think I need such an idiot in my life - do we really need these selfish cowards?? They ran away - maybe they've actually given us back the rest of our lives instead of taking them away - maybe we can have a chance to be truly happy now - instead of spending the rest of our lives trying to please people that can never be pleased/satisfied/appreciative.. WE DESERVE BETTER, HAPPIER LIVES. We can have that on our own or with someone - we are more then enough, we are good people. Lets demand better for ourselves.

[jahdog]

we certainly do deserve better. right on sister. i should tell stbex thanks for giving me my life back. wish i could charge her for what she has taken. peace.

[JWD]

best way to get revenge is to actually live a better live but no it's not satisfying enough. I NEED KARMA NOW LOL, we should start a fantasy karma revenge thread. he he.

[RayCub]

Morning, JWD! I see you're on line right now...

What time is is in your neck of the woods? The girls and I just rolled out of bed - tehy both slept with me last night which was nice and a literal pain in the neck at the same time! :)

It's snowing here today - just lightly - and I'm thinking I'm going to have to learn how to use the damn snow blower, if not for the rest of this season, then for next winter. Sucks. Guess I'll have to learn how to BBQ too. His three main jobs: snow removal, bbq, garbage. Now I'll add them to my long list of things I already do. Oh, and mowing the lawn - forgot about that one. Should lose these extra few pounds in no time with all that stuff to do now! Trying to see the silver lining in anything now, I guess...

I'm determined to be more positive today. My mom is coming to my house again today to help me finish up some laundry and other things around here, and I'm finally heading to the grocery store for some decent food. The last time I stepped in one, it reminded me too much of him because we always shopped together, so I grabbed a few things and got the hell out of there and haven't been back since. You know you're on the edge when chicken wings in the deli section send you into a crying tailspin!! Anyway, I may start shopping at another store, but then, we've been to all of them together, so I can't avoid them forever.

God, I hope this is a better day. I woke up a little pissed off at him for not calling the kids last night, so I find anger is a more manageable emotion for me...it makes me more action - oriented and able to get things done.

It's the nights that kill me. My favourite time of day was always bedtime when we would cuddle up together and drift off to sleep in each other's arms. I really miss that. When he worked night shifts, I always stayed up way too late because I hated sleeping without him, so now it's like one long, endless stretch of nightshifts, except now I don't get to see him in the mornings either. But I also know I'm missing the man he USED to be, not the guy he is now. I hear glimpses of that guy when I'm talking to him on the phone about inconsequential things, but I don't see any part of him when I'm talking to him in person. I wish I didn't have to see him at all. I think it would be easier to move on. The last time I saw him he looked so good. He's losing weight and looking more fit, and it took everything in me not to reach out and put my hand on his face and tell him how good he looks.

OK, I'm starting to get weepy, and I didn't want to do that today. I'm going to go make pancakes for my girls and get on with my day, and hopefully, no more tears today.

I love being able to access this site at home now. I can just pop on whenever I feel like it, or when I'm in desperate need of venting...

Ciao for now,

Ray

PS. My sister was at a drugstore yesterday and hears two people talking about this study that says that Facebook is on e of the leading causes of maritial splits in today's society.

[georgie]

The day will get better. Laundry, groceries that's good it will help you feel like things are a little more under control, but I really recomend you try and think of something just fun too.. I think that will help you get a better sense of yourself. For me there seems to be a subtle (slow moving) shift from thinking constantly about him and his reactions, to thinking more about me, the kids and how we are traveling. We can't control these idiot H's. They aren't as good as we thought they were - if we had a receipt we should be trying to get a refund right now! they have not lived up to their promises/false advertising and all that.
DO SOMETHING JUST FOR FUN - PRANK CALL, RUN NAKED THROUGH THE SNOW, GO AND HAVE A COFFEE AND READ A PAPER ON YOUR OWN WHILE YOUR MOM WATCHES THE KIDS,- whatever you like doing even if it's just a few minutes.

[RayCub]

Ok, I'll do the paper and coffee thing, but run naked through the snow?!??!? It's minus 8 here right now, and the last thing I need right now are my nipples to freeze and fall off!!!

Coffee sounds really good though.

[georgie]

-9 OMG we complained about being cold at tennis this morning because it was only 23' - we were in the shade.. OK my blood must have thinned a lot since moving to Australia.
Our winter is on the way - if we drive for an hour and a half around July/August we'll hit snow. I'll check out running naked conditions at that point - look out for me on youtube.

[georgie]

detachable nipples may be some guys things - at least their a talking point

[JWD]

I think we will always only remember the nice thing for now. I miss cuddles. We used to go to sleep cuddled up WAHHHHHHH

Now I just think of his cold, staring lying bug fat moon face

and breathe

[RayCub]

True, true...

I can see it now: I'll be on a first date, the conversation will take one of those dreaful turns where neither has anything left to say, so I'll whip up my shirt and ask, "Hey, do you want to see my detachable nipples??"

Should at least be a conversation booster..........

[georgie]

Exactly, how could he resist you..
cold, staring lying bug fat moon face... JWD are you the other woman in my scenario

[JWD]

LOL, just fling them over to him, save him all the effort LOL

[RayCub]

"""Now I just think of his cold, staring lying bug fat moon face """ (I'm not sure how to copy a quote from someone else's post :( )

That made me laugh out loud, JWD!!!!!!!!!!

That's what I'm going to think about now too!!!

[RayCub]

Hey everyone, I was just asking JWD...what to you do with your wedding rings?????!!?!??

[JWD]

posted on other thread. I suppose it depends. I know I will be gutted when I see him and his are off. I really will.

Just need to be brave.

[RayCub]

I know. I took mine off almost as soon as it happened because I just didn't feel like I should be wearing them when apparently, according to him, our marriage had been a sham for so long (at least to him).

The last time I saw him he was still wearing his, but I know, soon, he will take it off, and it will kill me to see it. His Facebook status still says "married" as well, but that won't last long and that will send me into a crying fit as well...so many downward spirals to look forward to :(

[JWD]

I deleted him from facebook, I made it for him too ARGHHH

Well not sure why he is wearing his, I mean he is fed up living a lie, why wear them.

These thing just happen, right. grrrrrrrrrr

[JWD]

go read the new post on helpful tips. Thats all very true

[RayCub]

Yeah, I'm the one who set up my H's facebook account too, and encouraged him to use it!!! Seves me right, I guess, that he used it to get in touch with an old lover...

I deleted him off my account last Monday. I just couldn't handle seeing his name on there and checking up on his account every few minutes to see if he'd put anything"telling" in his status, or if anybody posted anything about us, or just whatever...I was addicted to checking it out.

Completely off topic...I'd like to get my girls a pet in a couple of months, when I'm off for the summer. One really wants a dog, but they are so much work. They would both love a cat and one of my students' cats just had five kittens who will be ready to take in 6-8 weeks. I'm thinking of taking one for each of them.

Here's my catch...H is deathly allergic to cats. So, what if, in a few months he wants to come back (again, head knows he won't, so heart is asking this question), I decide okay, let's giv it a try, but we now have cats the kids are attached to and he can't live with?!?

I guess getting the cats would be an indication to myself (and him) that we're NEVER getting back together, right??? I just don't know if I'm ready to make that call, even though I should.

[JWD]

cats are great and if you get two much better. They look after themselves. I adore mine. Changing their names cos moon face picked them

And if he does come back he'll just have to dose up on piriton. Bet he is exaggerating his allergy anyway. :-)

[RayCub]

If I hadn't seen his reactions over the years, I'd think he was faking too, but even shots didn't help him. It's a legit allergy.

Hey, is it Mother's Day over there today?

[JWD]

maybe he won't be able to visit then because cat hair get everywhere.

Yes it is. Taking my mum present shortly. I'm going to clean up in case by some miracle my sister in laws pop in to see i'm still alive

[RayCub]

Well, I hope you have a great day with your Mom. Mother's Day isn't until May 10th here, and H and I have tickets to see Diana Krall in concert on May 9 - we were going to make a weekend away of it, but now I don't know what's going to happen. She's one of his very favourite singers, and I have the tix...

Well, I promised the kids pancakes this morning, and my oldest is dying to use the computer, so I'd better log off. Maybe I'll chat with you later.

The sun finally came out and it's beautiful to see. Maybe today WILL be a better day...

Ciao for now,

Ray

[RayCub]

Oh God, I just got off the phone with him, and he was talking all about child support payments and changing the van over to my name and changing the electric bill to my name so he could get power in his name at his NEXT place after this one is up in May and having enough money for him to live....

He's really not coming home, is he??????????

I want to die......

[JWD]

oh no, ray, you're going to be ok. You know that don't you.

[RayCub]

I'm just so sick of being hopeful when I know there really IS no hope. Why do I keep doing that???!?! Why can't I just tell my stupid heart once and for all that he's gone for good?!?!? Everytime I talk to him it just makes me feel so lonely and like I can't do this alone. I don't WANT to do this alone. I WANT to live the life we promised each other; I WANT to work this out with him: I WANT to raise our girls together and grow old together.

How can he just give all that up?? Didn't I mean anything to him at all??

[JWD]

what about asking him not to contact you for a couple of weeks? would that help or make you feel worse?

Its so unfair isn't it. You and I didn't even get a chance to try and sort this out.

I think you need to try less contact, not be around evertytime he calls or be less available. Even if its just to help you out over the next month

[jahdog]

rc you do not want to die. you gotta live to get sweet sweet revenge. only kidding. cant be dark. only will hurt yourself. good article on divorce dah website about water and positive and negative response. like ghostbuster 2 with the ooze under the city. check it out. i feel same too sometimes. hope she will come home but know better. dogs are lots of work but worth it. they love, protect, and tune in to you. loyal as can be. cats are good too. especially 2. i always had cats before soon to be x. she allergic also. had a cat once that hung out on my shoulder. would at all times try to get up there. could jump somehow, hit my body around knee and be on my shoulder before i knew it. always had to watch out. i could tell when she would get in that gotta get on your shoulder mode. very sweet creatures. dogs are great though. unconditional love and devotion. mine always make me feel as though we are one. cats a little more independent. both great pets. my dog runs away if i say mama or wife name. she doesn't quite understand what has happened but knows something and probobly feels abandoned also. i feel like my dog is my soul mate. always have. think used to make wife jealous. cant help it. dog and i have deep, profound understanding of one another. she is quirky and so am i. cheers to sunshine and better days ahead.

[jools]

Oh Ray, I know how you feel. I don't understand how they can do all those things either. Yes, you're hopeful - and no, you can't accept that he isn't coming back --- and you're absolutely right to be feeling like that - because you're a decent woman who believes in sticking by your vows and keeping your family together no matter what. This hurt you're feeling now is so awful - I know as I've felt it too. Your last question about whether you ever meant anything to him - I'd say yes you did. But it's like they become someone else. Someone horribly selfish that puts their own needs first. What you're going through now I went through nearly three years ago and I'd say that it's only in the last 6 months that i'm 100% back to my old self. I still feel very sad at the break up of my family but I'm happy in myself and know 100% that there's no way I'd ever want him back. All I can say is that if he doesn't come back you WILL get through it - though it won't be quick or easy. Do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel better. There's no rules here. And keep posting. My thoughts are with you.
Jools XXX

[RayCub]

I would ask him, but it's so hard not to talk to him because of the kids. If there were no kids involved, it might be easier, I don't know. But we have to stay in communication - and be civil to each other at that - because of the girls. It's killing me though.

And he's just so anxious to have all this stuff settled while I'm still in shock and trying to wrap my brain around him leaving...

I always thought I was such a strong woman: I have two degrees, I took someone to court (guilty) for touching me inappropriately when I was only 22, I sued a company for firing me when I was pregnant (and won), I moved across the country with no job and no family to make a life with my H (we both moved), and back again with no jobs and no back-up plan when I was five months pregnant with our youngest. I've held the hand of my grandmother when she passed away, and have healed from a miscarriage I thought would crush me. I run a household and a learning centre. I'm a good friend, sister, daughter, mother, and, I thought, wife. I've earned every wrinkle and gray hair I have, and I have a wicked sense of humour that brings people to tears.

And yet, none of that means anything anymore because I feel liek a complete failure.

[jahdog]

i feel hopeful at times but then hopelessness sets in. bah! be glad when this will end.

[RayCub]

I wanted to have a tear-free day today, but he made me cry tears of despair, and now you guys are making me cry tears of gratitude. Thanks for all your support.

[jahdog]

rc- you sound like one of the most brave, solid, accomplished people i have ever known. do not despair, i am on the same rollercoaster that you are on, i know how you feel. we will all get through this and be stronger. think positive. time heals.

[JWD]

Then someone else will see these things in you. He is blind if he doesn't see them. He is a fool to let you go and I bet one day he will wake up and see that. Keep reading what you posted there, that's the way to carry on.

jools, did your H even regret leaving you and ask you back?

[RayCub]

I USED to feel solid; now I just feel like I'm on shaky ground all the time. I mean, if my H can't see or appreciate me, how will anyone else? Not that I'm looking, mind you.......

He was supposed to be my "soft-landing" y'know? HE'S the one who should be comforting me and supporting me and holding me. Then only person I need to comfort me is the one who's causing me all this pain.

I know I can be selfish, but, for the life of me, I can't make myself understand how a man - who is a husband and father - can make everything about himself and just throw it all away. How does someone who's been so giving and loving just turn it all off? How do you turn off your heart?!?!

[jahdog]

i feel same. only one that can make me feel better is only one that can and will not.

[JWD]

Would love to be able to do that. What does the counsellor say about him? Does he have a friend you could talk to ask if they know anything. Mine won't face his friend. knows what a creep he is being

[RayCub]

The only person I've talked to about him is his sister, and she's not saying much. What's so incredible to me is that she's the one who posted on here about losing her own H, yet she's telling me that I wouldn't want him to stay for the kids, and that I'll get to a point where I'll see that this is a positive thing and all that kind of garbage...

He's met with a counsellor once, and I didn't ask how it went. Didn't want to show too much interest, and to be honest, I don't think it'll work anyway, 'cause he'll just tell them what thy want to hear anyway. He seriously needs a counsellor who's a bullsh*t detector who will call him on all his crap, not tell him he's doing the right thing. But that's not likely to happen, is it?

[JWD]

Well I feel mine lied to counsellor also, I was going to go back myself to ask counsellor his thoughts on it.

He sounds like he believes all that he is saying. Do you think its some sort of crisis? He seems to think he is in happy land and will stay there forever. All you can do is wait for him to crash land. Maybe then he will see what he is doing.

Oh my God, why do their family do that. If that was my brother I'd be like, what do you think you're playing at. He tells his mummy and ststers he's niot happy and they all go running after him. PATHETIC

[RayCub]

His mother called me on Thursday night and left a message telling me how badly she felt about everything and to ask how the kids and I were doing. She didn't tell him she called: I metioned it to him today and he was surprised. I think I might call her back tonight. I'd like to have a chance to just tell her that this was NOT what I wanted and that the only thing I DO want is for him to come back. I'd like to get her reaction to that.

[JWD]

I tried that with mine but she just makes me feel worse. I can't believe this is me posted all this and that this is actually happening to me. It's like watching someone else go through it. I cannot believe this has happened. Are there no decent people left in this world.

What is wrong with me.

[RayCub]

The same thing that's wrong with me: our hearts are broken.

[jools]

And yet, none of that means anything anymore because I feel like a complete failure.And that's because he's your one weakness. The one we love the most, unfortunately, has that power. To just crush us - where with every other injustice in life we'd fight back. But that doesn't make you weak. It just means you have integrity. Three years down the line I can say with conviction that although you're the crushed one now, he'll be the one nursing regrets. I have two daughters and when it all happened I was angry that I was left with all the responsibility while he lived a seemingly carefree existence. Today was mother's day and my eldest came home from university last night to be here and I had a lovely day with my two wonderful daughters. They still see their dad and I know they love him - but | know that what I have with them is special -- and he knows it. He still cries when he talks about our daughters (guilt!). That's why you haven't failed - he has! Believe me, Ray, in years to come he'll nurse far more regret than you. I know that doesn't help the hurt you feel right now - but you will (in time) move on and be happy again. You sound like a fighter - you'll do it. Roll on the anger stage - then you'll know you've started the recovery.

He was supposed to be my "soft-landing" y'know? HE'S the one who should be comforting me and supporting me and holding me. Then only person I need to comfort me is the one who's causing me all this pain. God, how I can relate to that feeling! One thing we all seem to have in common is our realisation of their capacity to lie. Once you see that, it makes you realise that you're better off out of it (even though you don't feel it - yet!)

JWD- you ask whether he ever asked to come back. Big fat "NO" to that one. Basically he wouldn't dare. It was never on the cards. He always had me on a pedestal and was so faithful till his "mid life crisis" -- how I hate that excuse of a phrase. I just think that once they lose their feelings and go elsewhere there's no turning back. It's a bloody hard process to get through but both you and Ray sound like strong women and I reckon you'll both re-aquaint yourselves with your old selves and be far happier people that your exes will in the long run.
Jools XXXX

[RayCub]

Thanks, Jools!!

Any advice on what I should or shouldn't do over the next little while, in terms of behaviour toward him or whatever...You've been there. Are there things you wished you'd done differently or thing you regret NOT doing? I feel like I'm totally in the dark here, and have no idea what to do next.

[RayCub]

"I reckon you'll both re-aquaint yourselves with your old selves and be far happier people that your exes will in the long run." (sorry, STILL don't know how to quote from someone else's post properly)

The thing is, I'm not sure who my "old self" is. I left home for university at 18, lived on campus for four years, had a steady boyfriend for three of those years, took a year off after graduation and lived at home - met H during that time, although no relationship was started at the time. Then I went to university again, adn lived at my sister's house during that ime. The summer in between is when H and I started dating, and we were engaged three months later. I haven't been without him since.

So...who the hell am I???!?!

[jools]

So...who the hell am I???!?! Not him that's for sure. You ARE a person in your own right, and you will find that person again.

When I started to "heal" I had shaky days when my mind played tricks on me and painted rosy pictures of him - so I'd tell him I wanted to see him. I'd go round to his flat and talk and focus on seeing what a little sh** he was. My radar (that we selectively disable when we're with them) would pick up on every little morsel of bullsh** and I'd come away feeling a whole lot stronger. He had no idea of what I was doing - but it helped! I only did it a few times (when I felt really bad). Quite funny when I look back now. That's what I meant when I said do what ever you need to to make you feel better - no rules! What's that old song? "Whatever gets you through the night - it's alright..." and all that. But I know how hard it is when you have children together. If we'd had no children, by now I'd have just cut off all contact - but that's not possible. But today I was so glad I had my girls. Strange old life. You'll get yourself back eventually. I used to get sad and feel he was the only one who could comfort me - but now he'd be that last one I'd call - not that I get upset about much these days (touch wood!).
Advice? Do what you have to. Emotionally, go with the flow. You're not a failure - he is! Allow yourself to have good days and bad days (though most will be bloody awful at the moment). Believe that this is as bad as it gets and good times are ahead. It might not be the future that you believed was the right one - and that's hard to accept. But what we want is not always what we need. I'm off to bed now - but I'll look in tomorrow.
Jools XXXX

[georgie]

I really beileve what Jools says is right. This is one of lifes twists and turns. We will have fewer regrets then the H's in the future. It's hard and we're hurt, very very hurt. But we are stronger then we give ourselves credit for. This form of journaling and sharing has really helped me. I know I've contradicted myself and back tracked, but it's all been part of the emotional sorting process. Dont try to tackle too much at once. Your doing really well Ray these are tough tough times, but we are tougher still!!

[RayCub]

Thanks again, Jools.

I wish I never had to see him again. It kills me to know that he's goig to be a part of my life forever: he'll be at every momentous occassion in the lives of our girls - school plays, big games, recitals, graduations, weddings...the works. He'll ALWAYS be in the picture, and at some point, show up with a new Mrs. And THAT will be the worst day ever - when he finds someone new.

I'm off to tuck my precious little girls in. They've just said good-night to him on the phone, which is all he'll get for the rest of his life. I surely hope he has regrets about that forever.

[jahdog]

john lennon song. lots of wisdom in his words. even though he abandoned family to be with yoko. saw her in central park at strawberry fields. strange.

[RayCub]

Thanks, georgie.

Having you guys to talk to has been life-saving for me. I usually journal, but this has been more therapeutic for me than even that.I don't know what I'd do without this site.

I just heard from my sister and she has SO much faith in me. I told her I'm glad she does because I'm not sure my faith in myself is strong enough right now. She says she's sad for me and is worried about me to a certain degree, but truly knows that I'll be alright and will come out of this better and stronger than ever. I hope she knows me better than I know myself.

[georgie]

your sister knows you well!

[JWD]

and you are the person you wrote about earlier Ray. That's you. And that's great. He won't take that away from you. Ever. Because you won't let him. We've dimmed our personalities at the moment but we will get back. So hard to see at the moment but deep down, I know I'm going to be fine.

It has frightened be just how much I became to rely on him to make me happy. I mean look what has happened to me just because he has taken his love away. That surely isn't love at all?

We're wibbles, we will wobble but we won't fall down. Like it, that was my last ever tarot reading :-)

[georgie]

Deep! Those free readings are really worth every penny spent!!

[JWD]

ahem £6.00 :-)

[JWD]

which would have been better invested paying for a lawyer for 30 seconds

[georgie]

or buying some laxatives to slip in to his coffee..

[JWD]

I went a step further and was thinking warfarin snigger

[dave123]

Ouch, don't mess with you guys!!

[RayCub]

I heard prestone in the coffee works really well too!

[RayCub]

Well, I'm off to work in ten minutes after getting the kids ready and out to school. I'm choosing to make this a good day, despite the fact H is coming by tonight to see the kids. I'm NOT letting him ruin this day for me!

[georgie]

Have a gr8 day Ray. My H came and got the kids at 6pm and dropped them back at 8:30pm, distant but civil at least... I asked if they could shower at his place - he said "hmm that would be a bit awkward" and then made some dumb excuse about a leaking shower (I guess he must hose himself down in the garden before he goes off to his highflying corporate world). So they showered when they got home. They were happy so I was happy (ish). Its amazing I was feeling positive and quite pleased with my own 'good' behaviour, then I realised that I was thinking 'if I keep this up maybe he'll come back" then reality set in and I thought no he wont.. so I bummed myself out temporarily. Then I reminded myself that I had had a pretty good day without him, I'd like him to come back if I'm being honest but I know I can learn to be happy without him. I dont want a hostage I want a happy partner!!
BACK TO YOU - enjoy your day, you must be very popular, enjoy your friends and many admirers!!

[RayCub]

Can't say how "popular" I am, but I DO have a lot of fun at work, fortunately, and all my students (adults) are very supportive of me and what's going on.

I find myself going along okay in the day and then thinking "Maybe if I do this or that he'll come home", and I can't believe I'm thinking it. I, too, have that moment of let-down when I realize he jsut isn't coming back. It's like a knife to my heart every time I have to remind myself of that.

Our stories are so amazingly similar...do you suppose our H's were separated at birth??

[georgie]

I think they must of come of the same production line - I think our H's were the last ones on a friday afternoon when quality control was maybe thinking about what they had planned for the weekend or something...
Actually, if he was all bad and awful it would be so much easier - it's the good in him that keeps sparking this crazy little flame of hope, then the so and so that's in his brains driving seat at the moment blows it right out.

[RayCub]

I hear ya...

I wish my H was all bad too. But I can't help remembering all the times he's been so wonderful over the years. I always said one of the reasons I loved him so much was becasue he was one of the nicest guys I'd ever met in my whole entire life. He was always such a generous, loving, funny, romantic guy...I couldn't have been wrong about all of that for so long, could I? That's the guy I keep hoping will come home.

I guess maybe I chose not to see the negative in him?? I wish I had have though. I might not have been so suprised by how our marriage turned out if I had.

[JWD]

So why the hell are they now these strangers. We can't all have been fooled. Everyone loves my husband he was so great.

Nothing makes any sense.

Such a lovely day here. Keep thinking about stuff we would be doing now. Today I found a little stone ornanment he had carved for me. that was less than 6 months ago.

I'm going to make myself french toast. I've been craving it for days now

[RayCub]

Eat some for me too!! I LOVE french toast! Put loads of syrup on it!!

I don't know, JWD. I think underneath all the bullsh*t, they probably ARE the nice guys we once knew, but they're either hiding it or they're brain damaged now or something...I have no rational answers for how/why they change so radically. It's as if they've undergone a brain transplant or something.

I guess when my H says he needs to find himself, he means he has to find that nice guy too, that he realises he's a stranger. And I also realise that if him being a complete stranger to me is so incredibly weird, it must be even worse to be a complete stranger to yourself. For that, I feel so badly for him. But it still doesn't give him the right to treat me like dirt!

[JWD]

he was my best friend. I cared more for him than he cared for himself and I can't stand to see him like this. But then I think who is the idiot here, why can't I just accept that his feeling have changed and move on. What the big problem.

He doesn't owe me anything so why do I expect him to be even a little sad that we are divorcing. What was he thinking, when did he start thinking it? have I really been so blind that I haven't noticed.

He has rewritten everything that now even I don't know what is true and what isn't.

Maybe one day soon I'll become so exhausted and worn down worrying that I'll not even notice that he is gone.

All the triggers like programmes we both loved, meals we both loved, wedding invitations, all the shows and stuff we have booked for summer are all coming through the door.

I really wish I had never met him now. It's just too painful. If he was a bad person it would be better. So many people say they ignored all the signs but deep down they knew, I didn't. I don't understand how he can look at himself in the mirror, knowing he has done this and then I think there really is no going back because he will never be able to face my family and friends again.

Was I really the only one laughing when we went out and would say how lucky we were that we were best of friends. Maybe thats the problem, too friendly, maybe he was bored, maybe he is crazy and having a break down, maybe maybe maybe.

right torture over, making french toast oh how couod you like syrup on it. I put tomatoe sauce on mine.

YUM

[JWD]

See when I talk like that to my cousin she goes crazy angry, starts shouting about how this isn't my fault and then I start pretending yeah I don't care blah blah blah and again I end up making them feel better because they no longer need to worry about me being upset.

Maybe I'm having the MLC and it's not happening at all snort :-)

[RayCub]

I'm CANADIAN, JWD...what did you EXPECT me to eat on my french toast??? Maple Syrup rocks, Dude!! Tomato sauce?!?!? WTF???

Yeah......maybe, maybe, maybe....I'm all maybe'd out to be honest. I'm so sick of thinking about him 24/7 when I'm sure he isn't giving me a second thought. He is moving full-speed ahead with his new life, getting everything changed over to my name, so that he can move forward on his own. He had a friend tell him to slow down, to not be making so many big decisions so quickly, that the grass isn't always greener, but he's obviously not taking THAT advice. He can't wait to get away! I'm curious as to what his counsellor is telling him. Surely any counsellor worth their weight would be advising him against making such rash decisions, but I just don't know...

[JWD]

I know what is the hurry LOL

ah another trigger, the italian coffee shop has opened finally, but then, so what it going for a coffee with my husband was going to be the highlight of my day then something wrong with me.

Any you're right, they aren't thinking about us, mine actually said I'm not thinking about you every second of the day.

WE didn't really argue, so maybe thata a bit of the problem, he hates confrontation

I'm going to go running tonight. Thsi should be a laugh, i'll need to wear about 5 bras.

[RayCub]

Oh My God - he even tried to file his taxes as single!!! I just talked to the accountant and she said when he came in with his forms he told her he wanted to claim as single!!! He told me that SHE was the one who suggested he claim that way!

God...where did my husband go?!?!? What's happened to him?!?

[JWD]

My God, what a shallow selfish man. I think my phone is getting cut off.

[JWD]

yoyr Husband is def chasing his youth.

[RayCub]

I'm on the phone with the selfish ass right now talking about our taxes...ugh....

I was VERY good on the phone just now. he wanted to visit the girls at home tonight...

Wait, I'll digress a bit...Every MOnday, the kids go to my parents' house after school. I pick them up there after work and we all have supper together. Because H wanted to see the kids at home tonight, I was to rush through supper, drive them to my house, then leave again (my choice as I don't want to be there with him around). So, I caleld him to tell himt o pickthe kids up at my parents, and to drop them off at my house about an hour-and-a-half later. He said he wanted to hang with them at home, but I told him I would rather if he didn't. Why should I accommodate him???

Also, I still have some of his tax stuff, and he needs to get it, so I said he could get it when he drops off the kids. He hinted that he would need it before tonight, but I didn't bite, not offer to go home and get it for him, to tell him where the new key is for the new lock so he can let himself into the house.

The thing is, I WANT to accommodate for him; I WANT to make things easier for him - like I ALWAYS did in the past. But he's the one who chose this for himself. I keep having to remind myself of that everytime I feel like caving into him.

Am I being too rigid???

[JWD]

I don't think so, I mean he can't get everything handed to him on a plate, no if he wants his 'independence' :rolleyes: that thats what he gets.

As long as you continue being nice but distant he can't throw it back at you saying you are being awkward. You are simply getting on with your life.

[JWD]

I have locked my H out, no idea why because the last place he wants to be is here LOL.

don't want him in the house snooping around my room.

[RayCub]

I was just telling Ageing Grace that i'm scared of my reactions right now. I think I'm trying so hard to protect my heart that I'm pushing him away just as quickly as he's pulling away. We're on this runaway train that is going full-steam ahead, instead of taking time to stop and consider what we're doing.

What if we're both just reacting to the other's reaction?!?!?

[JWD]

exactly. I feel like I pushed him into a corner to make a decision. Thats why I'm just standing back. I know him though, he will sit sit too, he will think oh well that is that.

I think I am just trying to recover for the next stage, when it's in my face that it's def happening. They will be packing my stuff around me and i'll be trying to post LOL

I don't know should I act happy because he said I was unhappy?? or should I shout and scream, you know if I did that he would probably back down re cutting off phone etc. But why should I have to bully him into being decent human being.

You should try reacting in a way he doesn't expect.

[RayCub]

I have no idea what he expects though. Or if he even cares how I react...

I emailed him a little while ago...this is what I wrote:

"I just have a couple of questions for you, and I'd like you to answer as honestly as possible. And not just two-word answers either please.

Do you ever feel like this is just going WAY too fast? Like we're on some runaway train, and we're not stopping to catch our breaths and really THINK about what we're doing? Do you think we're sometimes just reacting to the other's reaction? It just all seems to be full-speed ahead, especially for you.

I hate to think of us throwing this all away. Have you no regrets at all about us? You seem to have no doubts or hesitiation; like you can't wait to get started on your new life without me. Did you leave me so long ago that this doesn't hurt you anymore? And I'm not referring to the kids, I'm talking about us.

What do you see for your future now? Do you have any idea?

I guess I keep clinging to false hope that you may someday change your mind. Is it really wrong to think that?

I just need to know..."

I'm pathetic...go ahead...tell me I'm pathetic for writing him this stupid, desperate, needy, clinging, disgusting email!!!

He's going to break my heart all over again when he replies - or doesn't reply at all.

What the hell was I thinking??!?!?!

[JWD]

yOU'RE not pathetic. Wish I had the guts to ask my H but I don't instead I'll hide in here if he comes for stuff. I just don't want to be around him at all. Like i'm a cling on to the old H

At least you will get closure. Oh god if he replies don't know to you I swear I'll come over there myself and kick him up and down

[jahdog]

i feel like sending similar email to W. i will not because it will be either ignored or will get that same damn answer" I've made my decision","I want this" makes me go through same cycle of emotions that have been wreaking havoc on me for last month. our spouses suck.

[Ageing Grace]

Ray, I don't think your email was needy or disgusting!

Just a thought - depending on his reply, I suppose - can't you force a slowdown by simply refusing to sign the stuff until you're ready? It is unwise to make major life decisions while distressed ...

love,
AG

[JWD]

I won't get anything. Just a big fat ignore.

[RayCub]

AG,

I haven't signed anything yet, but it's still out of control. He's the one getting in touch with the utility companies asking them to put the bills in my name - actually, I'm not sure how he can do that without my permission?!?

He's just so intent on getting his name off everything that wa both our names.

I really don't know HOW to slow things down...

[RayCub]

He hasn't replied yet anyway. He probably won't.

[jahdog]

my dumb wife has been doing the same. since day one. get off lease. get bills changed. are these people madd. did some insanity ray go off from outer space. our spouses changed seemingly over night into completely different people- well maybe not people. i said it before and say again damn them , damn them all.

[RayCub]

"Divorce or dissolution of marriage is the termination of a marriage, canceling the legal duties and responsibilities of marriage between two people"

Seems so clinical and emotionless...

Like feelings and love don't mean a thing....

Can't believe that's where my runaway train is heading.

[RayCub]

Well, won't be getting a response today. He said he was getting off early today - at 3:00pm - to get some stuff done. Y'know - onwards & upwards for him - no slowing down to reconsider things.

So, it's after 3:00pm now, so I'll be left hanging at least until tomorrow, if he even replies at all.

[jahdog]

i just sent reply to wife email about where to meet to sign damn papers. first reply was at local store. second reply said that i will not sign until i get answers. she has found new place to move and wants to get stuff. told her that i will put outside for her when she wants. also told her no one else can come into this house. i do not even want her here. i will likely get no reply. my not going along with her plan will make her angry, good for her. i am damn hell ass mad. runaway train rollin down the track. most of my emails and calls get no reply. almost good considering what reply will be. bad reply. "I want divorce" I cant imagine saying those words.

[JWD]

my phone has been put off, I knew it today. Just knew it. Didn't even ask if I wanted to take it over. what a horror. Hope he keeps it up. Somehow it will be far easier to walk away from him like this.

Not even going to mention it. Who cares. Wonder what he is doing with the hard drive thing though? I best look into keeping titnernet going

[JWD]

I wouldn't want anyone in my house either.

[RayCub]

JWD, he actually let your phone be disconnected?!?! What happens if you have an emergency??

[JWD]

He probably hopes I'll die and he gets insurance money LOL

Got my mobile. He is sick isn't he? You don't do this if you are a healthy human being do you?

What's wrong with just sending a polite email saying that he feels I have run up the bill and should pay it myself. I have actually, never used to use the phone much but I have been on it to people much more than usual.:confused:

[RayCub]

My H just called me at work and left a message for me asking if I would run out to our van and check the insurance and registration card in the glove compartment to see if it belongs to our car because he has the one for the van. Apparently he got pulled over in a check-stop the other day and has until today to go to the city and present his insurance/registration card to the police. Like I'm going to help him...He tried to present it in a way by saying he was worried the same thing might happen to me...whatever...

He wanted me to call him by 4:00pm...that's in three minutes. I'm not calling him back...oh, there he is calling again. I didn't answer the phone. I'm sure he's all pissed off at me now.

I hate these mind games. I hate, hate, hate them with a passion. Why the hell am I playing them?!?!? I should jsut go out to the van to check for him. Or at least answer the phone and tell him I'm NOT going to do it for him.

When do I get to be the b*tch???

[JWD]

Don't do it. Who does he think he is. Don't answer the rest of the night.

I said to horror boy I don't wish to play these games, I said I hope we could be civil about this. It's probably that girl putting him up to it, but then that seems to weird doesn't it. he is 37, all the man he is ever going to be.

I don't know. I'm not rising to it anyway, thats for sure,

[JWD]

I'm going to ignore him like the small child he is.

[jahdog]

yeah it seems our dumb ass spouses think they can jerk us around and then have us do them favors and services like we owe them something. i want to be a b*&$h too. it seems like we are torn between doing for them and making them angry. we should not care but we do. i think we cling to desperate hope that they will wake the f^&k up and come back. mindgames suck.

[JWD]

Worse, mine sends his mummy to pick his mail up. urghh

[RayCub]

I figure my H will say something to me tonight when he drops off the kids.

Y'know what keeps going over and over in my head? The night he told me our marriage wasn't worth saving. I keep thinking back over 15 years, and remembering all these good times we had, that he admits were good for him too. But he's choosing to focus on the bad. He's making a conscious choice to only focus on the problems in our marriage instead of the strengths. That's makes me so sad because I KNOW we were good together in so many ways.

How come he's so willing to throw it all away??

[JWD]

Because he forgets that you helped him get to where he is. he forgets that you have to try in marriage and he forgets any promises and vows he made to you and your kids. easy to forget eh.

Mine forgets all the times he came home moaning about his work and I listened to him, he forgets how I didn't force him to come to all the boring family parties and instead got going to pub and football. he forgets how I would be at work calling to see if he was ok because he had called in sick and was feeling all guilty and he was the BOSS? forgets lots of what he has told me. Hmm good job I have a good memory evil heheheh

wish i could forget about him

[JWD]

You really have to wonder just how long they have been thinking about it. To get over it so fast and be soon much in a hurry to move on. What an actor

[JWD]

ARGGHHHHH he was so insecure when I met him and i built him up and now look at me LOL

I've created a monster :D

[JWD]

well you know what they say, build them up, and then bring them straight back down again;)

[jahdog]

yeah right. they focus on bad while we see good. they are over it before the even did it. again WTF.

[JWD]

they have just been so selfish again, wait until they really know they don't want to stay or until someone better comes along. WTF?

Imagine being that shallow.

[JWD]

I wonder why he kept saying to me that we needed to go see financial advisor, and was making plans for holiday the week before this all happened. WTF

[RayCub]

Oh guys, I think we can wonder until we're blue in the face but it won't get us anywhere useful...just pissed off at the world and bitter towards love, I think.

I just keep telling myself that "THIS IS ALL ABOUT HIM; IT'S NOT ABOUT ME" - It's my mantra.....ooohhhhmmmm.......

[JWD]

That is very true, it's selfish man's issue not yours.

I've got a date lines up, nothing crazy, just friends like.

Why not eh?

Maybe too soon?

[RayCub]

Who knows what's too soon? I mean, if you're just going out as friends, what's the problem? You should be having fun! We ALL should be having some fun!! We can't cry 24/7, can we?

[georgie]

I think until the focus shifts away from them on to ourselves that we are just going to go around and around in circles. WE are going to come accross as needy and desparate - neither are attractive qualities. We lived before them and we can live again guys!! If we really want them back - being pathetic is not going to appeal to them is it?? The only way forward is to find ourselves, find our own happiness, live our own lives. It's hard, it's uphill, sometimes it may feel like a total act, but we all know deep down it's the only way. Then if they decide that we are the people that attracted them in the first place - we can decide if the same is true about them!!! Believe me I'm not 100% sure I will still feel this way in a day or a week, but while I'm strong I"m going to move my life forward. Life is short, my sister died when she was my age. Don't spend your life in regret, keep adding to the happy memories. xxx

[dave123]

Hi,

Delaying a response to anything my ex does gives me the breathing space to control my reaction. Everything she does annoys me at the moment so i really take the time to let it go before even deigning to read emails etc. I have a life and responding to her will be done on my terms...

Dating again sounds like a great idea to me now. I am excited to get to meet new people and share some fun. The difficult bit is meeting the ladies but i guess without trying i'll never get anywhere! If you do try and it's too soon then knock it on the head and give yourself a few more weeks or as long as it takes for you to be happy with it... You control your life now!

Take care,

Dave

[jahdog]

true true my brother

[RayCub]

I can't even IMAGINE trying to date. I mean, my situation JUST happened, so I'm sure I'll want to eventually, but God...it scares the crap out of me.

Starting over at 39 (well, almost)...i never thought I'd see the day......almost makes me sick to my stomach to think about it.

[JWD]

yeah iIve been thinking that too re being pathetic, why would he rush back, mind you I honestly don't want to see him right now. I'm being pathetic again but I feel all scared of him, what a weirdo, must be a self protection thing because every time I see him he just upsets me, plus I'm so sick looking at his big suicide face. Depresses me.

I'm going to control myself, no more tears, get a grip jwd

Og georgie, thats so sad, but again, your correct, life is too short for all this crap. If he wants me, he'll let me know, meanwhile, I need to have some fun.

[JWD]

I'll probably be a nervous wreck and it's not really a date actually, more a friend thing. A man LOL. Kidding. Ah what the hell, feel 15 again

[RayCub]

"Life is short, my sister died when she was my age. Don't spend your life in regret, keep adding to the happy memories. "

Unfortunately, I think this is what my H is doing - without me. I think he sees how short life is since his younger brother suddenly died two years ago at 37. Now he's just trying to find some happiness for himself...at any cost.

[georgie]

JWD your reactions are normal, he's hurt you and you're afraid he's going to do it again. I think a bit of distance will allow you some breathing space.
I REALLY HAVE TO GO NOW -Talk to you in your morning my night (I think!)

[JWD]

night night georgie, you'll get a job no bother. I can feel in in me bones :-)

[RayCub]

Well, I finally got my answers tonight. He called to discuss my email to him. In a nutshell, he isn't coming back, his love for me has "come and gone" over the years, his cousellor says he should separate himself from EVERYHING in order to work on himself, and that I've done everything I can, but he just can't love me with his whole heart.

I'm heart broken all over again, but I guess I can move on now. I have my final answer: he's gone for good.

[JWD]

I'm so sorry Ray. Counsellor shouldn't have said that, maybe he didn't. A loving distance is needed now Ray. I'm heart broken for you.

[RayCub]

I'm heart broken too. I told him I was glad he was getting counselling and that I hoped he finds whatever he's looking for and that he's happy at some point. He told me he wants me to be happy too. It was a very sad, final conversation. He took all the blame, after I pointed out that I was sick of hearing this whole 50/50 crap knowing that he felt the way he did for so long and kept me in the dark, leading me on to believe he loved me completely. He apologized from being such a "waste" for 15 years, and I told him he wasn't a waste - that I loved him with my whole heart for 15 years and I have great memories even though they're now tinged with doubt. We agreed that we've probably been living in a different marriage for a long time.

I really don't know where to go from here. I don't know how to be alone like this. I don't know how to raise kids by myself. I don't know how to make myself stop loving him. I don't know how to pick up the pieces...there are just so many pieces........

[JWD]

one day at a time Ray. He still needs to help you out. Your family will all muck in. Please keep posting.

xxx

[RayCub]

Yeah, I guess I'll keep posting even though I have nothing to offer now...

[JWD]

it's early days still Ray, but still try detach. he hasn't had a chance yet to see grass isn't always greener. I'm not trying to get your hopes up but he does need to see the other side so who knows.

For a counsellor to suggest he gets away from everything astounds me.

[dave123]

I really don't know where to go from here. I don't know how to be alone like this. I don't know how to raise kids by myself. I don't know how to make myself stop loving him. I don't know how to pick up the pieces...there are just so many pieces........

I know this sounds weird but you do know how to do all these things.

You go from here to wherever you choose to go, and do it bit by bit, day by day. Until eventually it becomes your new better and happier life.

The bit i struggle with is comparing my new life with the 'reality' of my old life instead of the rose tinted view i sometimes have. It's something i work on a lot of the time now.

Take care,

Dave

[JWD]

try as little contact as possible, not easy with the kids but just for a few weeks will you try recover

[RayCub]

He's going to be here Thursday night to visit the kids for a bit. I'll hide out in my bedroom while he's here. From then I'm going to try to avoid him until April 19 when we have mediation. It'll be hard though because he clls for the kids. I'll just have to get my oldest to answer the phone...

He made me feel so dispensible tonight, like he used me for so many years and he's just now getting round to throwing me away...

And maybe I do know how to do all those things, but I just don't want to do them without him. God, I miss him so much...........

[JWD]

that's the problem isn't it, we know what we need to do but we don't want to do it because then it's real and it's happening. When we still feel so much pain and bewilderment and can't imagine them not coming back, we feel there is still a chance.

its **** **** ****

Has he set mediation up already, so unfeeling of him. If it's going to be too soon for you then tell him so. About time he considered your feelings in all this.

[RayCub]

Actually, I set it up. i was pissed off one morning and decided "Ha - I'll show YOU who's in control!". But it's probably best. I think he may be in denial about how much child support he will have to pay so it's good to get it sorted out as quickly as possible. There's no reason for me to wait now. Might as well get it all over with as soon as we can.

I know there's no chance now.

[JWD]

Yes I think he is in denial about many things.

he'll miss so much that he hasn;t actually though about yet. We'll see how he get on. He has just done this all so fast and counsellor hasn't helped at all have they.

You continue as you are and let him see what he is missing, because he will miss it

[dave123]

Hi Ray, i didn't mean to sound glib earlier, we none of us asked for this or deserved to be this unhappy because of a decision someone else has made. Sometimes i feel like everything i do is pointless and forced because what i want to do is out of reach now. I hope in time the new stuff becomes the norm and the past is kust the past.

I hope you come through this all OK.

Take care,

Dave

[JWD]

Dave, do you still think there is a small chance you and your wife will get back together? if not at what stage did you accept that there wasn't?

[georgie]

Yes Ray, he may think he's off to re-invent himself,but the Father part is forever and he still has to do his share (even though that will also hurt at first). They are so bloody selfish, their feelings suddenly become the only thing that matters, as if feelings are some kind of permanent state of mind. As Raymond often points out - it's actions that matter and make a relationship work, it's actions that generate feelings. We can all run through a full range of 'feelings' in a day, look at our ups and downs in the past few weeks. Its a BS excuse. I think my H thinks if he hadn't met me he'd still be 26 -he's only 42 as a result of our relationship. They are off to look for something that is long gone i.e. their 20's. They are all singing from the same crazy song book - it's not your fault but as long as your in my life I can never be happy/free/find myself - DOES THAT MAKE SENSE ON ANY LEVEL?? Damn them all as Jahdog says. I'm still hoping that the selfishness is part of the MLC crazy/depressed phase and that he is about to wake up and be his old self again - I'm not sure how many more emotional blows from him it will take to knock that out of me.
We can move on Ray, a little bit at a time. We are better then they'll every understand - it's their loss! trouble is they have their heads so far up their own a$s's at the moment they may never see that - so we have to let them go. The sun will rise again tomorrow, a new day, a new start. xxx

[RayCub]

Well, the sun is up and I'm tired as hell from crying and tossing & turning all night. But last night is over at least. I tld the oldest this morning that there's no hope of her dad coming home now, and I told her I was sorry, but I did everything I could.

Dave, I didn't think you were being glib at all. we're all just trying to struggle through this the best way we can, and I appreciate ALL the advice and support I receive on this site - NO judging; there's been enough of that already in our lives.

I'm off to work. Not going to be an easy day, but I'll get through it the best way I can: minute-by-minute.

Ray

PS. Last night I told him I hope he finds happiness, but, in all honesty, at least for right now, I hope he finds nothing but lonliness, regret, unhappiness and guilt. Is that awful of me??

[jahdog]

Pickin' Up The Pieces

Transcription taken from The Original Lyrics File


Pickin' up those pieces
Pickin' up those pieces
Putting them away


Not writing you a letter
Not writing you a letter
Not today


Not wanting to meet my savior
Not wanting to meet my savior
Not this way


Sweating out my worries
Sweating out my worries
Just another day
Just another day
Just another day


Hey RC- Sun is up and a new day. We have to take a breath, and keep breathing.
So sorry to hear, but sooner all over sooner you can move on and heal.

Same for me and probobly for all us in here. I have had no response from my email yesterday, very similar and inspired by yours. I probobly will not get response. I will just get a knock on the door and be served with the papers. Think i will sign and rip them up then throw thenm at the a-hole that deals out misery.

I agree with you on horrors of dating at 39 (me too), i hated dating back when i was younger. Entering back into dating situations now scares the hell out of me. Now will be more stressful. Well maybe not, guess we wont know till we get out ther. May be fun. At least we have more wisdom now.

hope you, me, and all us find our happiness.

[JWD]

I think I will be a big actress on any dates. Will have to bury deep the mistrust.

I hate how this has happened to us all.

Want to stomp my feet and scream how unfair it is.

[jahdog]

lets stomp and together.

[georgie]

Let's walk before we run.. Let's get used to just us and remember that we are enough before we go on to break hearts LOL.
I've had my wine - have been in a chatroom for the first time, in the midlifeclub - very confusing, others see to respond to me faster then I type my original text - I am so far behind on all this stufll..anyhow I'm in a whinge room. I'm a multiple personality - I'm on here being all philosophical then over there it doesnt take much encouragement for me to join the anti MLCer mob - I'll be marching on my H's bachelor pad carrying a burning torch if they whip me up in to much more of a frenzy over there - WHAT FUN.. the next best thing to Voodoo for usre - anonymous slagging off.. God if he only knew. Here I am carefully crafting my new mild mannered polite agreable personna - WHILE BY NIGHT I'M CYBER B#TCH!!
Wharalaf

[JWD]

LOL. its like split personality on the other site I visit .

do you tell anyone you come on here? I mentioned it to my friend and she just looked very sad for me :-) reckons I should wean myself off ha ha

[georgie]

OK The chat room is doing my head in now, there are too many people I don't know who's talking to who, it keeps making a dinging noise every time someone says something - it's making me angry and I can't even remember why now because my train of thought is constantly interrupted... Now I know I am too old for this new fangled world.. bring back casette recorders,and dial phones, but not spiral perms....
I better go to bed, big day tommorow, crappy job but in the current market they will interview me as if I'm applying for NASA. I'm not sure if I'm in the right frame of mind for an interview - I'm afraid I'll have some kind of weird turn like "How dare you question me- haven't I always worked hard!" or something super melodramatic - like throwing a chair accross the desk screaming "it's not in my control" if the interviewer asks me my marital status..
I can continue to live feeling relatively ok as long as we have the joint bank account - as soon as that is taken away I know I'll be visiting rock bottom again. Our weekly household expenses are rediculous - I've used a budget planner to pro-rata the anual expense per week and once all our insurances etc. are factored in - well if I'm not working full time we are screwed! I'll be canceling a lot of stuff that's for sure. This too will pass, I'll sort it out....
Posh Spice is a multi millionaire, no talent, no taste (other then in husbands) - surely if she can make it in the world we all can.

[JWD]

LOL, I was thinking how I can't even see my second name written down. Poor posh has been cheated on too/ Wonder if she came on here

[georgie]

Yes I have told people and got the same response - well hopefully they will never need to find out how valuable this is in these circumstances. I think without this outlet it would have taken me months to get to where I am today. I really appreciate it. Only people in this situation can understand how it feels, it's like having kids - you read all the theory and get all the advice and feel really smug, then you have one and OMG you realise you KNOW NOTHING.

[georgie]

Oh yes I forgot about the cheating, I would say she went shopping as her therapy somehow.

[JWD]

I know what you mean. My married friends all offer advice, my other friend keeps saying well you don't have kids, bugs me, like they are saying I don't have the right to be totally devastated and shocked that this has happened to us. Even my own husband doesn't seem to understand why I'm so sad.

Wish I'd never met him

[RayCub]

JWD, just because you don't have kids doesn't mean that you don't have the right to be totally devastated. I have them, but it doesn't mean I'm more heartboken than you are right now. How dare someone imply that to you. How utterly insensitive.

the advice I really enjoy is from this one guy I know who's NEVER been married but compares everything I go through to his couple of relationships in the past. He'll say, "Well, when it happened to me..." and, "I did this when she..."...like his short little flings compare in any way to what I'm going through right now. I know he thinks he's helping, but all I can do is roll my eyes when I read his emails.

Most of the people I've told about this website are all for it. They think it's awesome that I'm able to chat and vent and get support from people in my position. One of my sisters think this site is the best thing for me. She says that while she can offer me all the advice and support in the world, she can't truly understand what I'm going through like you guys do.

Of course, I've had one person say, "How do you know one of them isn't your H under a username?", to which I responded, "He doesn't care enough to access a site like this to see what I'm saying or to talk things out to other people." The only other slightly negative response I got was from, of course, my mother, who is worried about who I'm chatting with and fears one of you may be a serial killer out to find his/her lastest victim. I swear she watches too much CSI. So, if one of you happen to be a psycho out for blood, could you target my lousy H instead of me? Kidding, kidding...I don't wnat to see anything bad happen to him...other than a string of flat tires, speeding tickets and failed relationships. Oh, and I hope he gets really fat too!

Did I mention yesterday that I spoke to an old friend of mine who is going to fly across the country to meet me and take me drinking and dancing?? It baffles me that someone I haven't seen in 17 years is more concerned for me than my H. Anyway, this friend is the one I spent all my time with in my fourth year of university; we were inseparable; JUST friends, but he DID dump a girlfriend once because she didn't like his realtionship with me. JUST friends though. SERIOUSLY.

It'll be nice to see him again. He's making me a mixed CD and sending it to me soon. It's kind of an inside joke because he made me this awesome tape (the packaging and linere notes were even better) back in school, so now he's trying to outdo himself. He's divorced as well and has two young kids, so he understands the pain of everything. He called me yesterday as soon as he found out, and I haven't even spoken to him in more than two years, maybe three. It's nice to find out that I left such an impression on someone that they still care so much after all this time. It does my heart and self-esteem good! Anyway, I sure could use a night of dining and drinks and dancing to Van Morrison like we always did...it's been way too long since I've done something like that. H loved to go to dinner but was never one for dancing. I've missed that. And I've missed doing things like board games and theme nights and other goofy things like that because H wasn't into that kind of stuff.

So, here's my idea. I have these Diana Krall tickets for May. My H is desperate to see her but I have the tix. I already missed out on a concert the weekend we first fought last month - he went without me. I just couldn't bear to go with him. The D.K concert is in a city two-and-a-half hours away - the city my old friend wants to meet me in to go out. I'm thinking I should take him to the concert with me. Would that be wrong???

And still.........JUST friends. I won't be ready for anything other than that for a VERY long time.

[jahdog]

yes ask him to go to concert. enjoy dinner and dancing. sounds like this guy really cares about you. also probobly understands you pretty well. good deal RC. Virtual High five. as long as the sun keeps coming up and we keep breathing we will be ok.

[RayCub]

Well, he USED to understand me really well, before all my 'baggage"...

But then, he has similar baggage, so we should still be able to at least tolerate each other for one night out on the town...

[jahdog]

yeah, check baggage at door. have fun, enjoy being ALIVE. i have similar problem with concert attendance. Got tix to see the dead. used to travel far and wide to see grateful dead, good ole grateful dead. concert next month. i will go without wife with or without guest. will enjoy. just missed allman brothers in NYC because of this big damn mess. guests that night, last fri were eric clapton for almost entire show. we had planned to go that night.. bummed hard on that. beacon theatre month long run. also gonna miss taj mahal and bonnie rait together. also gonna miss more. anyway you take care. keep posting. good peeps here.

[RayCub]

Sucks that you've missed/going to miss all those great performers.

Yeah, it's hard to come to terms with the already-made plans, isn't it? We usually go away to this huge Jazz & Blues Festival together every September - always stay at the same B&B and try to make it a romantic get-away. So much for that...I'm sure he'll be hanging with his sister this year instead. Plus there's this annual canoe trip in memory of his brother coming up in August...it'll be awful to not be included on that trip anymore.

Last night when I was talking to him he said that this was hard on him too. I can't imagine that its harder than finding out your husband never really truly loved you. I think he might just be referring to the kids. He definitley doesn't miss me, that's for sure. He said he felt like he's been controlled by me and my parents for the last five years. I never felt like Itried to control him, but I guess that's where the whole idea is confirmed that we weren't living in the same marriage at all.

I asked him what we're going to do about Easter and the kids, and he told me that Easter is a bigger deal in my family and they could stay with me (as if he has any say in it),a dn he would buy them each a chocolate bunny. So he's leaving it up to me to buy all the stuff for their baskets, which can get pretty pricey. Nice guy, huh?? So, I'm going to do it myself, but I'm going to keep EVERY receipt for when we meet with the mediator. I figure he's going to get away with paying very little since I have agood-paying job. he's get to keep three-quarters of his pay, while I struggle to make ends meet and provide for the kids.

The karma Gods can stop kicking me while I'm down any time now, please!! Not sure what I did to deserve all this, but they sure seem to be having a go at me!

[jahdog]

yeah, they are having good go at me too. maybe at some point they turn thir fun to future exes. make him pay as much as possible for support. if i wanted to do the court thing she would likely end up paying me alimony, pay med insurance, some debts incurred while married, etc. if i sign then all over and done fast. i think i will tell her i will sign if she pays for all my dog's med costs -about 8-10 grand. if i do not sign will cost her about 10 grand to lawyers. better to take care of my baby than make lawyers richer. missing planned events hard. we used to hike at this great place in north carolina mountains, almost every weekend while living there. we were married there on banks of river. before i met her i went there often. do not think i will ever go there again. will find new places. most certain and hopeful that after this karma will be clean. hope i did not do anything in past lives that will require more toll. who knows. gonna take life slow and enjoy everything possible. we will all emerge from all this stronger, better, and wiser. glad for this forum. helped me to move forward. feel different now than did short while ago. look foreward to better days for us all.

[RayCub]

"look foreward to better days for us all."

From your lips to God's ears, jd!! I hope we all have better days ahead.

I'm listening to PINK right now singing about burning her house down after her divorce!! "Burn this fu*ker down!" NOt that I'm like that, but it's nice to hear someone else get angry like that!

[jahdog]

yeh, right. i want to burn some things as well. will start with wedding pics. hav not had heart to do it yet. ripped some up though. maybe each day rip one up. save and when all ripped burn them all. want to burn these bead necklaces we made for wedding too. made these necklaces out of beads that we made. wore at wedding. been hanging on wall since then. thrown them away a few times but always dig out of trash. when time right burn them up. best thing to do for now is seek inner peace.

[JWD]

Its funny to hear you both speak about karma as I keep thinking that this is mine for some past deed.

We also have a few concert tickets, I'm keeping them if they come here, sell them or take a friend.

I think you should take your friend RC, it will do you the world of good.

JD, I feel like that also re places we used to go together, maybe we should discuss it in mediation lol

[RayCub]

Oh guys, I am NOT having a good afternoon. As the day goes on, it's starting to sink in more and more that he isn't coming home. It keeps dawning me over and over again, and I'm sinking to new depths of despair. I can hardly keep from crying in class.

H emailed a friend of ours and told her "yeah, whaddya do, whaddya say....long time coming, being in her hometown didn't help, getting on with life and hope to be a good dad despite the changes, hope we can still be friends"...that's ALL he has to say about ending a 15 year relationship!! I feel SO incredibly betrayed and used.

He's "getting on with life"...seems so easy for him to just move on and leave me behind.

God, I feel so alone.

[JWD]

A long time coming has it, bet you'e glad he discussed thay with you/

Just another example of how he has lost the plot. It's easy for him because he's not left with the kids, he's excited becuse he thinks he is going to have some care free life now.

It won't be like that but he will just have to find that out for himself.

He is an arse

[georgie]

God they are all so similar.. Go to the concert with your friend have a wonderful wonderful time. You don't owe anyone any explanations about whether he is just a friend or has the potential to be more - you are not doing anything other then getting on with your life.
I really hope this hits them at some point, but we cant count on it.
It's their casual attitude that gets me. Mine told a mutual friend that he "didn't want to live like that anymore" - like what exactly??? He dictated most of how we lived due to his working hours and lack of interest in doing anything I wanted or suggesting anything he wanted to do.. and reluctance to 'waste' money doing anything with me or the kids also.
They are a strange breed, and I think we are far too tolerant for our own goods. We need to develop stronger boundaries and make sure we are not treated like this ever again. I think there were signs for all of us, we forgave them for too many short comings if we're honest, then the turned it all around against us.
Have to go 'PREPARE' for my interview - So cannot be bothered..armed robbery would be so much easier wouldn't it.
Ok grumpy rant over. It's raining and that's good news here, so things are looking up! Will now re-join my 'happy' day. Kids gone to school happy, dog happy as has been walked at length, me happy because that's the way it's gonna be damn it!
BE HAPPY GUYS!!

[georgie]

Oh, cat very happy as she is lieing on H's clothes that are still in the wardrobe, covering them in black and white hairs - what a good girl she is, you soon learn who you're really friends are!!

[JWD]

I'M HAPPY

Haha my two cats are laid out on Husbands wedding suit oops

[jahdog]

howdy ho all:)

feeling sinking in here too. lawyer keeps calling. i do not answer. seems far too easy for her to be moving right along with her life. i also get the long time coming and should have seen it coming bit. what do they know anyway. why did our spouses not want to talk to us about things before the point of no return. how can someone that we married just throw us and our marriages and lives aside like some old pair of shoes.:mad:

rc-you are not alone and neither am I or any of us. we are all gonna be down, but we will also be up again. the rollercoaster gonna keep rolling whether we want off or not. we will reach point where up will be the norm.

hard to not be down when we know they will not be back. they do not deserve us, our love, or our, devotion.

spring, flowers, and, new growth, and life, here soon.
:)

[RayCub]

Cat hair is good!! I wish I had some right now to rub all over H's clothes still in his closet. He's deathly allergic. If I could, I would pack a cat in his boxes just before he takes them so that it jumps out at him in his new "beach house" and contaminates it for him!!

Just got back from Weight Watchers...lost 3.2 pounds this week (no Sh*t!!), and the woman was all, "Wow, you had a really good week!", and I'm like, "Um, yeah, it was a freakin' GREAT week..." I could market this and write a book..."Lose weight on the My Husband Is Leaving Me Diet plan. Lose weight AND a lying husband all at the same time!"

I think I could pull that off...

Georgie, tell us how your interview went AS SOON as you get in!!!! I'm sending you the one positive vibe I have left!!

[jahdog]

rc-sounds like agood e-book to me.

[JWD]

Haha, guy in my work said you look great, what have you been doing, I was all awkward and just said H left me. ahahah. Then he gave me a big cuddle. This H left me crap has it's advantages :-)

I was thinking we could write to prisoners, they can't leave us LOL

[RayCub]

Listen, my mom is already worried about one of you guys being a serial killer; if I start writing to ACTUAL serial killers, she might go round the bend, and I need her to babysit for me.

On the positive side, it's always nice to make new friends...:)

[JWD]

'it is isn't it. My mum wouldn't understand either. She thinks mobile phones are way out there.

[RayCub]

God, I want this day to be OVER. I just keep replaying everything he said last night and I can't relax or get anything done.

I bought myself flowers tonight. How pathetic...

I want to call him and tell him I always HATED carnations, which he always insited on getting me. My favourite flowers are DAISIES!!! Is that so freakin' hard to comprehend?!?!?!?! Jeese...

You know the thing that gets me at this particular moment? He told our friend that this was a "long time coming" yet never felt the need to share that with me. And here's the kicker: He didn't walk away in order to give me back the life he stole from me, to set me free, but he did it to set himself free, the selfish basta*d!! The depths of his selfishness just keep astounding me!! When will I stop being surprised by his words and actions??? I feel like I've been blind for 15 years, and he's the one who kept me in the dark...

[RayCub]

And he STILL hasn't called the kids tonight...

[jahdog]

ok- fess up guys. who is the serial killer?

somebody should write book, movie, tv show, reality show or something from all this.

if i only had the energy. maybe project for later.

RC- can kids call him?

[JWD]

I so know what you mean about being blind. I was thinking things through today and lots of stuff came to mind, and then I thought how blind are you. My friend said I just didn't want to see it or believe the lies. Do you think the mind is so powerful to do that?

I don't even want to hear anymore, I've told people not to even tell me, he is running around saying pathetic things, I'm saying nothing. He actually believes it himself so carry on.

Your h is incredibly selfish not to call the girls, just proves how warped he has become. He will eventually see what he has done. He will but until then you need to carry on. They won't hear us when we tell them how their action have effected us, they don't want to know. Look at my H, he couldn't even remember some of the crap he had told me.

It's awful because they are so alien to us now.

[JWD]

I've always been into serial killer stiff and films like criminal minds, csi, dexter. That's disturbing isn't it :-)

[jahdog]

sounds like a confession to me:p

[RayCub]

Dexter is my VERY FAVOURITE show EVER. Maybe I'M the serial killer!! Mwahahahahahahaha...


Yeah, JD, the kids can call him but he was the one who said he would call them between 7-8 every night and this is the second time he's missed since Saturday. They really shouldn't have to call him; it's his responsibility, the turd...

[jahdog]

true- he should call them. very unfair to them. they no doubt do not understand and will feel quite abandoned. lets all learn martial arts and form vigilante squad of ninjas to go about and take care of all these selfish a-holes.:rolleyes:

[JWD]

I had to log back on as your H annoyed me so much lol

The reason he is saying stupid stuff like it's been a long time coming is because he is trying to justify abandoning his family. I don't believe for a minute the counsellor told him to leave and find himself grow-up, he knows deep down how selfish he is leaving you and the girls so its easier to say that it had been happening for a while, next he will be saying it was for the girls so they didn't live in a home where parent fought.
He is shifting the blame and justifying his immature, weak, selfish behaviour.

I'm so glad your girls have a strong, intelligent, wise, funny mother to see them grow.

Mark my words, this is going to come back to haunt him

[JWD]

haha I used to have a web site pic that showed how to make a t shirt ninja.

Look at us, every continent almost, we could be world super heros

or maybe we're the final 5 in battlestar lol

[RayCub]

I really hope it does, JWD, otherwise what's the point??

Well, guys, I'm off to bed. I'm exhausted and I'm going to drink some sleepytime tea, turn on the tube in my room and just try to relax and get a decent night's sleep for a change - it's been so long. I miss sleeping! Something else I can blame on him!

Talk to you all tomorrow!!

'night

[jahdog]

final five, i like that. nite nite. i miss sleep too. getting more and more lately. toss and turn and wake lots though. worst is those few moments after waking when i do not know whats going on, then wham-reality hits. just gotta breath and face another day.:)

[georgie]

I don't think I'm a serial killer, but will have to check with H as he seems to have a list of faults I was not aware of, maybe he left me because of my habit of going into a trance and killing strangers, I always wondered what those mounds were in our garden - thought we had rabbits....silly old serial killer me..the blood stained knife on my pillow every morning makes sense now.

Interview was ok, woman very nice, all went well until the end when she stuck in the "why does someone that has been a manager for years want this job" question.... "Because I don't have any headspace to think about anything other then my crazy H - so stick me in front of a computer and switch on my auto pilot" .. hope that answer nailed it for me (not really I muttered something about balance and family and wanting to do some further education). I'll find out by the end of the week. FINGERS CROSSED the hours are flexible which is what every mother likes to hear, and I can stop applying for jobs and spend more time talking about me me me me on here, which is such a nice change from listening to him on the subject of him him him...not really, I do care about everyone on here, even if I am obviously the most hard done by with the MOST tragic story of all (JOKE - we're all equally miserable calm down, it's not a competition - which is a good thing for all of you...!)
Anyhow, today is tennis and swimming for the kids so life is hectic until about 7:30pm - then rush home to watch Coronation Street (about a year behind the UK). What a rich life, how did I ever have time for a H.
Had lunch with a friend in a nice place on the beach, how come I never made the time to do that before.. it was really nice, and the world did not collapse because I took some time out for me. I am going to work on losing my Martyr complex - this is a big task for an Irish Mother - we are born to be long suffering, no matter how good we've got it!
Got to go and pick up the kids - hope nobody choked on the biscuits we made or got food poisoning. The mother's mafia will be after me. Do you have Mothers Mafia (Mufia) in Canada? They are like a cross between Stepford Wives and Freddy Krugger, they hang around the school yards making us lesser mortals feel inferior, perfect hair, nails, make up, figures, houses, baking genius's, crafty - bladdy bladdy blah - I like to arrive with our dog -
who being a boxer likes to wipe her saliva and drool all over my clothing as we walk along - by the time I get there I usually have a plastic bag of pooh as well - take that Uber Mums!
I have no idea what I'm talking about any more ...BFN

[jahdog]

ha ha ha :D

[yogamad]

All you guys crack me up:D:D:D. I really laughed this morning reading your posts, imagining Georgie with doggy saliva and her plastic bag of dog poo :D. We're real mums, not the ones done up to the nines with loads of make up and hair perfect all the time. Glad your interview went ok, hope you hear soon.;)

On a more serious note, if only your husbands had actually talked to you about their problems and tried to work it out. Instead they leave it all bottled up and then just leave you to pick up the pieces. I think it would've been easier for you all to cope if only they had talked to you more. Why don't men talk? :confused:(apart from the ones on this forum of course).

Hope you're all having a good day.
YM

[jahdog]

yeah the buggers should have talked more no doubt. could have saved us all lots of grief.

[ken94]

RayCub,

I read on one of your post that your H didn't phone the kids which upset them. I had exactly the same situation except I thought my W would forget ... so I didn't tell them.
And in fact I tell them at the last minute so there isn't disappointment (only to me but with time it becomes a habit and I am more resilient about it).

I hope this helps you dealing with it next time.

Good luck,

Ken

[RayCub]

Hi Ken,

I didn't mention the scheduled phone call to the youngest who was the one who was upset. I asked the oldest to get the phone when it rang around the time he was supposed to call, because I told her it was probably him calling, but it wasn't. It was actually an old friend of mine calling to see how I was doing and to give my kids a big hug from him even though he's never met them. The ironies are everywhere...

My H told the girls a week ago that he was going to *try* to call them every night between 7:00 - 8:00pm. He told them there may be night when he couldn't call so they wouldn't be disappointed. That was last Thursday when he was with them. So far, he called Friday night when they were both away at a sleepover, missed Saturday, called Sunday, saw them on Monday, and missed last night. So, all-in-all, he's seen them three times since March 15th, and called them twice. I'm not sure what to tell them anymore. All I can do is be there for them when they're upset.

My oldest is getting more angry with him; I can see it in her face and actions. It drives me crazy that these two beautiful, smart, talented, funny, loving, trusting girls will now doubt every relationship they ever have with a boy/man becasue of what their selfish father has done.

And his only reaction is that he's willing to do this at any cost.

Is there anyone more arrogant or selfish in this whole entire world?

[ken94]

RayCub,

Not too bad what your husband did after all !
See them 3 times and call them 2.
My wife did see them once (4 hours) and call them once .... in ... ONE .... month !!!
And once she called to speak to them after 9pm (they were in bed).

But I never said a thing about their mother or told them they will see them unless she had booked a train ticket to see them. I keep it for myself.

Another thing, as I don't tell them a thing and I am happy and make them laugh a lot and give a lot of affection (I am the Dad and the Mother at the same time) they're very happy and never ask for their mother.

Is there anyone more arrogant or selfish in this whole entire world?
Of course YES. Now you have to let go your anger, it should come with time. And start to see you H as a person not a baddy (he has regrets but won't tell you). If he were one of your best friend doing the same and telling you all his feelings what would you do ? How would you be with you friend ?
Supportive and understanding !

Ken

[RayCub]

Actually Ken, my brother did this same thing to his wife a few years ago, and I raked him over the coals. I didn't take his wife's side or his side; I took the side of what was right vs. what was wrong, and he fell on the wrong side. And , especially now, he completely understands why we didn't support him.

So, no, I can't say that I would support a friend who was doing the same thing as my H. Sorry. It's only been a little over a month since he pulle dthe rug out fromunder me and the girls, so getting over my anger isn't even close to an option for me right now. Actually, to be honest, I haven't even hit the anger phase head on yet. I'm still too disallusioned and hurt and raw. I'm looking forward to being angry to be honest with you.

See my H as a person? Perhaps if he had afforded me the same respect while he was with me, I might be more inclined to do this. But he saw me as nothing more than a mother for his children, someone to run and pay the bills, and from what I can tell about his feelings, someone to have sex with. He lied to me, used me and threw me away when he no longer had any use for me anymore.

So, do I consider him a "baddy" right now? Without a doubt. Does he deserve the label? Without a doubt. Will I ever be able to forgive him? Lots of doubt there. But that's something I'll have to live with and reconcile within myself. I'm not going to force myself to feel somthing i'm not capable of right now. He's not; why should I?

[RayCub]

Hi guys, having a bit of a rough afternoon.

Two weeks ago today I asked him to leave. I think I honestly thought when I asked him to go it would have hit him lilke a slap upside the head and he would've thought, "Wait a second. What the hell am I doing? I'm being completely stupid here and I could lose everything I love." But he left. I still can't even write that without crying. Damn! I so wanted this to be a tear-free day! Damn, damn, damn!

I find myself coping quite admirably during the day,especially during the morning, but then I slip into this panic mode where all I can think about is a way to convince him to come back. And then I start thinking,"This can't REALLY be MY life, can it???" And it's like it's the first day all over again. And I want so desperately for him to come home and for everything to be normal again. It nearly KILLS me to think that I'm never going to be with him again!!! I'm overwhelmed with grief when I allow that thought to enter my consciousness.

This is bad time of day for me, i think. My students have gone for the day and I find myself reaching for the phone to call him and see how his day is going. We nearly always spoke once a day at work. Maybe at this time of the day too, I'm closer to going home, and I hate returning to the house. It just feels like I'm playing house now, that nothing is real. Nothing feels right - watching tv, playing with the kids, doing their homework with them, tucking them in bed. I feel like we're in a state of waiting...like we all think he's going to magically change his mind and we'll just go through the motions, pretending, until he comes home. And while all this is going on, I keep telling the girls - and myself - that he ISN'T coming home. I feel like I have a split personality or something.

It's like I get up in the morning determined to put it all out of my head and have a good day, and I've got anger on my side. But then, by afternoon, anger has worn off and sadness has seeped back in to invade my thoughts, actions, heart and soul. It's draining.

Ugh...I wish I could stop thinking about the situation for five freakin' minutes!

I seriously want to curl up in corner and hide and cry and weep and sob and sleep until this is all over.

If I'm like this now, what am I going to be like when he starts seeing someone else?

[jahdog]

same here rc-feel like moving on then its like the first day all over. still wait and feel like maybe she will come home. miss the little hows it going chats. work gives focus then come home to the house. it sinks back in. today bad day. lawyer keeps calling to meet so i can sign. will meet them later today. i really do not look forward to the day when i have to see her with another man. that day will be a bit*h.
hang in there.

[JWD]

It doesn't feel real at all does it. I worry I'm in complete denial. Today he sent a text asking if I was working, not heard from him in a week, anyway, he only wanted some clothes, put a how are you on the end. So unbelievable. Just put his stuff at the door, can't face him and I think it's because I don't want him to start talking about divorce and I don't want to notice his ring off. Think I'm going crazy. Girl in work sees him at the gym and she is single, even considered them getting together LOL. everyone has a chance with him but me.

When I think of the lies he kept telling me the weeks before I found out I feel physically sick and then I hate myself for still even considering wanting him back. truth is, it would never ever work,even if he wanted to come back, the lies are so much more now that any sort of affair. If I think too much about it, I'll end up bitter and twisted and make myself ill. I know I need to face it and it will be like 5 weeks ago again. Feel like I'm watching it happen to someone else.

Maybe if I started to truly hate him it would help

[jahdog]

i keep thinking that may help too but then i know better. hate would be toxic to myself. seeking only positive energy now. cant wait for life to stop sucking. life can stop sucking anytime now. will keep repeating this to myself.

[JWD]

positive mental attitude. Good for you. Think i'll start my affirmations again. have you though anymore about the job?

[jahdog]

yeah, gonna let things settle then make decision. they were cool with that. goin blonde? why not try hot pink one day. ha ha:p

[JWD]

haha yeah, lets just take our time hehe. I think electric blue becomes me

[georgie]

Hey, I hear what you're saying re: letting the kids down and the model they are being given for future relationships. I'm not sure in my H's case whether it's more about not being able to face/talk to me, so they are caught in his imaginary cross fire (well actually sometimes there really is crossfire so I'll have to work on that myself). He has improved re: calling - although the calls are very short and tend to have the same question repeated e.g. 'How was school, How was swimming,emmmm so swimming was good??", but still not making a huge effort to see them lots. They seem to handle it pretty well, we keep ourselves busy, and it seems that I was mostly what they were used to anyway, which makes me kind of sad for him and them. I love them and enjoy their company, so he's the one missing out. (Must remember to appreciate them more conciously myself).
It is like a form of depression, selfishness gives you this short term buzz, but it is isolating and self defeating, you get a lot more out of sharing your life, giving to others etc. then you do by a constant examination of your own navel.

[yogamad]

Sorry you're having a rough time RC. I'm not in the same boat as you as H is still living at home but I've read your thread and think you're coping so well, you're there for your kids, you're going to work. It's only to be expected that you feel up and down and will do for a long time yet.

Wishing you all the best.:o

[RayCub]

Thanks, Yogamad. I appreciate you following my journey...

I'm having a better night. Ate supper with my folks, picked the kids up at neighbor's house, came home, got the kids showered and then H called them. My oldest answered the phone, and he talked to her and then the youngest and then asked to speak to me. He asked me how I was doing - I hate that question from him because he's only asking it out of habit - and wanted to know if he could see the kids tomorrow for a bit since I'm taking them away for the weekend. I told him he could. Then he asked if it was still all right for him to come and get more of his stuff on Friday morning, so I told him I haven't arranged anything about that yet and I'd have to let him know tomorrow night, and then I let him go. My oldest came over and said, "Mom, you sounded happy when you were talking", and that's when I realized I was actually nice to him while on the phone. I told her I was sick of being sad, and I was going to try really hard to be more happy from now on. I told her I would have really bad days too, but maybe in a year or two, I would be having mostly happy days again. I really want that for myself.

Anyway, tucked my girls in , sang them their good-night songs and made myself a cup of tea, and signed on her to say hi to everyone. I'm okay tonight. It might only last until I go to bed, or it may last until morning, but I'm okay right this very minute, and I'll take that for now.

Hope everyone else had at least one okay moment today too.

[JWD]

Ray, got this from another site, hope it helps



No Contact with your Wayward Spouse -- by Catwoman

There have been a lot of members that are choosing to go NC with their WS. This thread is to support them in their efforts to take back control of their own lives and hopefully create a bit of healing space while giving their WS a taste of what "real" divorce is like.
So, without further ado, here are Catwoman's guidelines to NC with a WS (best works while separated):

Why go NC (No Contact) with your Separated Wayward Spouse? If they are still on the fence and not sure what they want, give them a dose of what it will be like WITHOUT YOU.

This also helps the BS protect THEMSELVES. I call it HEALING SPACE. When we stop spinning our lives around our WS, we can start to heal our own hurt. As long as we are still spinning around our WS who can't quite figure out what they want, we are still not focusing on our healing. Whether you end up reconciling or divorcing, NC with the WS can really help.

Here's how it is done:
NC with your WS does not mean NO CONTACT (we save THAT for the OP). It means, however, CONTACT ON YOUR TERMS. It also means that YOU DICTATE THE CONTACT CONTENT.

You don't TELL a WS you're going to do a NC on them. You JUST DO IT (gee, someone should make an ad slogan out of that--it's pretty good). First, get caller ID and USE IT. Don't answer about 75% of the time that it is the WS. Unless it is something dealing with finances or children, don't return the call.

Of course you want your WS to continue their relationship with your children. So you may want to amend this to picking up the phone ONCE when they call in the evening to allow them to talk with the children. But if they constantly call at 10 p.m. to talk to their 5-year-old who has been in bed since 8 . . . well, you don't have to pick that one up. Do you see where we are going with this?

And unless it is something dealing specifically with the children or finances, you don't return the call. The calls to see "how you are doing" "what color are the roses in the garden next door--I forgot" "do you think brown socks or blue ones look better with khakis," well, we just ignore those and wait until the next time we decide to pick up the phone when they call.

You ONLY talk about finances or the children. NO feelings (especially from the BS--NONE).

But you are very sweet and kind. In fact, sweet as sugar. But impersonal in a way. Kind of like the cashier treats you at the grocery store.

Secondly, set up a visitation schedule. At least one weeknight a week and alternate weekends. They're not sure they want to be married? Show 'em what it's like to be divorced. You, the BS, are BUSY on the nights and ESPECIALLY WEEKENDS you do not have the kids. I don't care if you just go to Wal-Mart and look at the Shop Vacs. YOU ARE BUSY.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to arrange a weekend (when you don't have the kids) away. Visit a friend. See your parents. But BE GONE.

It goes without saying that on the nights you don't have your children, you DON'T answer the phone.

Here are the answers to the questions you will get:

Where were you? OUT.

Who were you with? NO ONE YOU WOULD KNOW.

What were you doing? JUST STUFF.

And for those who think it is a game, Wal-Mart is OUT, right? And the nice fellow that showed you the Shop-Vacs is NO ONE HE WOULD KNOW, right? And Wal-Mart qualifies as JUST STUFF, right? You see, you're not fibbing. Just creating a little mystery.

Now remember, you are as nice as can be when giving these answers. But don't give ANY more information than this. NONE.

If he asks how you are, you are FINE. No elaboration.

It doesn't hurt to change something. Highlight your hair. Grow a beard. Do SOMETHING that is immediately noticeable and different. Something healthy (now is NOT the time to get a tattoo, for example), but just different. Believe me, the WS will notice when they come to pick up the children for their "scheduled visitation."

Never cry in front of them. If you are having trouble tearing up, make any face-to-face or phone interaction very brief. Switch to e-mail if you can. Much easier to keep it impersonal that way (plus the written record is AWESOME!).

Some may consider this a game. It is anything but. This is a way that you can create the space YOU need to heal, as well as give WS a taste of what divorced life will be like.

If they don't decide to reconcile, you're just that much further along the path to healing.

If they do decide to heal the marriage, they may have learned a very valuable lesson with regards to what they barely escaped losing. This isn't a game. And it does work. Hugs to all who are brave enough to do NC with their separated WS.

Catwoman

[RayCub]

Wow, JWD, this is an awesome article. Really good points to follow. I'm going to try as much as I can; my only problem, however, is that my H doesn't call to see how I am or to ask what colour the flowers are next door. I think he's doing the no-contact things as well because he simply doesn't want it.

That being said, this tips WILL help me to move on I think. I'm printing this one off...

And I think I'll email him and tell him tomorrow doesn't work for me to get his stuff, so we'll have to reschedule, and also tell him we have to make a set-in-stone visitation schedule with the kids. I just hate to email him first. It feels like giving in.....

[RayCub]

So I emailed him today:

H,

Tomorrow isn't going to work for me. Maybe you can pick up a few things tonight when you visit the kids.

We also need to make a more dependable visitation schedule. Either once during the week (a couple of hours, outside of my house) and every second weekend, or every Friday night (overnight). You can let me know which works better for your schedule. I'll discuss it with the kids to see if they are okay with either of these options.

I'd also appreciate you helping out with the cost of filling their Easter baskets. I've already bought a few things, but I need to get more.

Take care,
T



How does that sound?? Too anything? God, I'm so unsure of myself in anything I do in regards to him.

[JWD]

Why didn't I read my own post before this morning LOL

That sounds fine to me Ray, polite, not needy and keeping to the facts.

Make sure it suits you too though, can't have him thinking it what is easiest for him.

Lets kick their asses and make them frustrated at having to do thing around us but unable to pinpoint why it annoys them cos we're just so nice.

Right stop me texting him something stupid, because the onluy reason I want to text is to try back track from my bitter rant this morning re telling the other man. Suppose it will worry him.

Hope the other man doesn't beat him up;)

[RayCub]

So there I was, sitting peacefully in class when all of a sudden an image pops into my head of another woman cuddled up with my H in bed, with his arm around her, her head on his shoulder running her hand over his chest..........arrrrghhhhhh.......it made me want to throw up on the spot!!! I CANNOT handle this!!!!

[JWD]

You can. just shake your head and say shut up, shut up, shut up.

I haven't started that yet. It no good, you don't know it's happening so what is the point. replace it with an image of all your friends who love you. You're special, don't give negative thoughts any power. I'm very confident that these thought we have will lessen in time.

I think about me and H all the time and I need to stop so I'm trying to replace it and everytime I thinbk of it I'm telling myself let them go and thinking about JD's poem he posted.

[RayCub]

I know; it's just that I miss snuggling with him like that, and it kills me to think of someone else taking my place.

I wish I could hate him for putting me through all this agony. It would make things so much easier if I just didn't care.

[JWD]

I know, I think I hate him but I don't. I see his wee face and just want to cuddle him and make him all better, he looks lost and confused and I just can't do anything.

probably laughing up his sleeve, see, this is what I do. My heart is telling me that he is in trouble and needs support and I now know he is deeply unhappy but my head says STOP you are being manipulated. A man in a state of confusion and hurt doesn't treat you the way he has, pass you off as something more than a feeling and then be sly and say not thinking about divorce when yes he is.

Either way I feel sad for him

1) if he is confused and hurt he is hurting us both
2) If he is the calculated cold selfish man that I see now, that really is the pits. Someone like that will never be happy and that is sad. Maybe I'm a bit dolly dimple but I don't need much to make me happy.

Yours sounds just the same.

I suppose if we hate them , we care. I'm trying hard to just switch off. Its very difficult but needs to be done.

Still will be in a state of wtf for months yet though. Lets allow ourselves to still be sad until we decide we are sick of it.

[RayCub]

I have to see him tonight when he comes to visit the kids at my house. Like you, I'm dreading seeing his wedding ring off, but I'm sure it is by now.

[RayCub]

And he hasn't responded to my email from today yet, so I guess he hasn't seen it yet. That means I'm actually going to have to TALK to him now, and I wanted to avoid that at all costs!

[JWD]

Just tell him you sent an email, can you go for bath when he is in.

I'm getting myself in a state wanting to text him to say ok, lets just see what lawyers say, no hard feeling. I'm only doing it to prove I'm not a mentalist but I clearly am. shut up shut up shut up,

He doesn't want to hear from me how I'm not really crazy. I'm so drained.

I'm going to make french toast again. Not eaten yet again.

[JWD]

It's really the only good thing to come out of this sorry mess.

Re you imaging you H with someone else. A girl in work mentioned she sees him at the gym, well she has split from her boyfriend and I immediately though bitch, she's after him LOL. oh I'll die if she is, do you think she is?;):D

[JWD]

I'll maybe mention std clinics just in case