My husband hates my family

[yogamad]

This is all very complicated and the first signs were there when we first met but I ignored them as I loved him so much. His family has MBEs and CBEs, are doctors, dentists, lecturers, etc, live in a big house in a good area. He thinks my family are common, he says he dragged me out of the gutter, etc. When I say that this upsets me he says he's just joking and that I've got no sense of humour.

He tolerated them for years but about 5 years ago he stopped speaking to my parents and my sister and her partner. He has never seen my sister's children and calls them unkind names. I find all this very difficult as I have to go to christenings by myself and my sister is getting married next year which I will go too with our children but not him.

Although he thinks his family are well educated, he is still not interested in them either. He says his parents are too old and he gets bored seeing them. I, on the other hand, enjoy seeing my parents and my sister and I are twins so obviously get on very well. We fall out about this constantly (among other things) but if his family has a get together he expects me to go. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't, when I don't his mum says I'm being petty which I probably am but I just feel it's unfair. Can anyone give me any advice on this?

[JWD]

Your partners family sound like my Husbands. I used to get quite intimidated by them although very nice. He sounds a bit of a snob and it's very selfish not to try to see your family.

Can you not just say that this is really becoming a problem for you and try compromise?

[yogamad]

His parents aren't in the least bit snobby, nor are his brother and sisters, it's just him. I get on well with two of his sisters, but we don't see anything of his other brother or sister and their families.

We have tried to compromise over the years and he used to get on with them ok when we were first married. My parents have been good to us over the years, looking after our sons when I went to work and babysitting, whereas his parents aren't interested.

Things came to a head five years ago when my sister left her husband and I asked her to move in with us (without really asking him first which I now realise I should've done). Things were ok for a couple of months but he got fed up with her being there but before I could ask her if she could maybe move in with our parents, he said he hated her and wanted her out. He shouted really loudly so she heard it all. She really cried and I felt so bad that I sided with her and he's never really forgiven me for it. Also, I think he felt jealous because my sister and I get on so well and it''s something he feels he can't compete with. I've tried telling him that, as twins, we've got a close bond but it's something completely different to how I feel about him.

He then fell out with my parents when we went to a ceremony my son was involved in at school and I invited my parents and sister. They wanted to come but when I told him on the night he made me ring my sister and tell her she couldn't come. She said she wouldn't but my parents then rang and said how dare he tell my sister she couldn't come and who did he think he was. So after that he refused to speak to them as well.

I've tried counselling and trying to get him to just let them come to the house but it doesn't work. We just end up arguing so it's easier to see them at their house. It really gets me down because my parents miss seeing their grandsons as often as they'd like and if it's one of my sons birthdays they have to give me their present to pass on rather than give it to them themselves.

I can't see an end to it, I just try to make sure my boys are ok and that they still see my family and just get on and make the best of things. I feel very low sometimes but most times I try to get on with my life as best I can.

Thanks for your help.

[Ageing Grace]

Hello, Yogamad. There's more to it than this, isn't there?
I understand your situation as mine is a bit similar except that it's my husband who shows me no affection and is not interested in sex (can't be bothered with all that mess, as he put's it). We have not had sex for nearly a year and then gradually the hugs and kisses stopped too. The last time we kissed was at Christmas when I kissed him but he didn't really respond to be honest. I tried to kiss him this week but he just turned his head away.

I am soldiering on because I haven't got any choice (have two children together, financial reasons, etc) but it is soooo hard living with no affection.

You posted that in Flubber's thread, which is an interesting discussion of power imbalances in marriage.

As your husband - it seems - puts your family down, tries to separate you from them, humiliates you and your twin sister, rejects you sexually and ignores you emotionally ... he's a classic bully and you're a classic doormat.

I can't see how this miserable marriage will be helped by 'compromising' still further over the family issue.

Bullies respond to bullying. You might be able to achieve a re-balancing of power by pushing forcefully for your rights - preferably in front of his family, for support. It may not work but I can tell you he has no respect for you, so what's to lose by trying to regain some?

The thought that you're willing to bring up children in this environment scares me. They will grow up believing that adult relationships are all about control and contempt.

Is that what you want?

AG

[Raymond]

I think AG has a point Where control is operating, and it appears it is, you have to stand against it to break it. Usually male controllers use fear to control but there are reasonable things you should be allowed like having your family visit for instance. You need to be careful that he won't isolate you.

For this to work effectively you need to maintain your respect for him while resisting the control at the same time. Try and discern the difference in the sense of seeing what is unreasonable control and what are reasonable requests. Deep down he will know what is right and wrong so encourage the right but resist the control and don't get isolated as it could then get worse.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks Raymond and AG. You are completely right, there's loads more to it than my first post, I wouldn't even know where to begin to put it into words. When I talked to a counsellor about it, I started right at the very beginning and talked for an hr non stop and she said it was like an autobiography.

He knows he's a bully and is controlling but says he wishes I would stand up to him more but I find it very hard because he straight away puts down what I've said. I don't like being thought of as a doormat but maybe I am. Having said that, even our mutual male friends have said they find it hard to make themselves heard with my husband in discussions, arguments, etc because he's so opinionated.

The one thing that always keeps me going is our wonderful boys who are doing really well at school, are confident, etc. They have seen their dad shout at me and put me down occasionally over the years but mostly it's when they're not there. They do know how I feel to a degree because I've discussed it with them (they are in their teens) and what they want most is for us to stay together as a family so that's what I'm trying to do.

Yesterday we went out for lunch together as a family and then my husband and I went to a concert in the evening and had a great time. He looked after me all evening, bought me drinks, drove there and back. The thing that was missing was that we never once touched each other, there's no hand holding or anything.

So, it might sound miserable (and it is sometimes) and other times I still enjoy his company. If I was miserable 24/7 then I would have to re-think I guess but it's not like that. It probably sounds very confusing and I suppose it is.

I will think about saying something about the family situation when I next see the in-laws but they are so not interested and would probably just brush it under the carpet. Meanwhile, my parents go on about it all the time which doesn't help either as I always feel very caught in the middle.

After the good time I had last night, I'm feeling a bit more positive about things today so I'll just have to see how things go. We've been together, by the way, 21 years, married for nearly 18 years and have been like this right from the start and here I am still talking about it!

[JWD]

Well that's because you didn't know better. Enough is enough. You're not taking anymore and now you realise that you don't need to.

Stay strong and believe in yourself

[Raymond]

Some things are good for you Yogamad. It's not all bad aprt from this control and lack of physical affection. He says himself that he wishes you would stand up to him so don't put up with the control.

With regard to affection he can learn that. I had to. I didn't give physical touch enough at first, (apart from sex). I came from an orphaned background. I realised it was my wifes prime love language and had to learn it. There is no problem now. the book The Five Languages of Love by Gary Chapman may help you both in that.

Raymond

[Ageing Grace]

Hello again, Yogamad.

Something you surely know, but may have forgotten to practise, is "We are responsible for that which falls within our sphere of influence". In other words, you're not responsible for your husband's attitudes or actions - they're in his own sphere - but you are responsible for your own responses to him.

Whether this is what he means when he says he wishes you'd stand up to him, only he knows. The facts are that you're in an untenable situation and - since you cannot control him - your only possible course (other than leaving) is to radically alter your responses.

My personal tip is to treat the entire thing as a game.
If he tells you can't or mustn't do something: forget about reasoning. Laugh it off. And do it anyway.
If he rages: tell him sweetly where he can find you after his tantrum - use that word! - then go.
If he criticises you: just tell him nicely that you disagree - and leave it at that.

Here's some reading for you:-

Windy Dryden on Rational-Emotive Behaviour Therapy: (Google Books, with preview)
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YxzJJmhpvIEC&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=wIKtSe-iLYLF-AaJttnaBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=12&ct=result

Lessons in Romance: (website)
http://romancelessons.blogspot.com/2006/05/abusive-relationships-tips-of-all.html

Lundy Bancroft's 'Why Does He Do That?': (book; Amazon)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236109069&sr=1-1

Transactional Analysis: (wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

Good luck :)
AG

[JWD]

oh yes, I'm practising my reactions to his actions. going to have a nosey at the links. cheers

[yogamad]

Thanks for all your comments, I found them very interesting. It's interesting that you say you're from an orphaned background Raymond because my husband was too. His parents adopted him from an orphanage and I think that a lot of his problems stem from not being wanted. He has told me that his family start from me, him and the boys and he wants to hold on to that more than anything because it means so much to him.

I have told him that by wanting me so much he is actually pushing me away. He is, as I've already said, very opinionated, the more dominant one of us, whereas I'm more shy and reserved. I know that gets on his nerves though and so I am trying to be more confident, be more in charge of things, but he does always seem to put me down before I've really got anywhere.

I've had a good day today, been thinking about our situation alot and really want to try to get things more back to how they were. The only negative he said to me today was that I have no sense of humour and don't get when he's joking. I told him that I can't tell when he's joking and when he's being serious because it sounds the same even though we've been together all this time. His put downs are quick, whereas I can only think of a really good response when it's hours later. I'm going to look at the links now - thanks for them.

[Ageing Grace]

Thank you for your post, Yogamad.

I don't want to interfere with your own thinking around your relationship with your husband, but I do have one more offering (just the one, I promise!!)

In your last few lines above, where you talk about not having his knack with a quick-fire put-down, it sounds very much as if you're trying to play by his rules.

Is there any reason why that should be so?

What happens if you make your own rules, for example "he does sarcastic, I do dignified"?
I am curious as to how he made you phone your sister that time - what happens if your rules say "he yells, I reply I'm sorry he feels that way"?

I'm looking forward to hearing your take on transactional analysis :D
AG

[Raymond]

I think you are right YM that a lot of your husbands problems stem from not being wanted as a child. I think that still plays in his life. It is a rejection thing. Always looking for acceptance and never finding it. Even though you accept him somehow he can't receive it. It seems to me he is trying to get acceptance by putting others down. A competitive thing. It may make him feel better for the moment but there is no cure in that. The cure is wanting the best for the other and in a way forgetting yourself. This is a big subject. I will have to come back to it.

You have to be yourself YM whatever he says. We can improve ourselves but our basic temperment is what we were born with. You cannot be someone else, only yourself. He must love who you are and not try and change you.

Funny about his sense of humour. My wife has the same problem. She doesn't know when I am joking or serious. Is that an orphan thing? I am better than I was as things are not funny if she doesn't see it. I suppose one grew up with lots of kids and the type of humour just developed which others don't see. One has to adapt to whom they relate to and drop some things they can't see as funny. We are developing our own humour now which we share in.

Raymond

[dave123]

Hi Yoga,

I think having a look at the transactional analysis would really help here. I have been doing a Relate course recently following a break up and we covered it in one of the sessions (i am no expert). It really opened my eyes to my behaviour, my exes behaviour and our roles between each other within our relationship. It sounds from your posts as though you are both very committed to your relationship, and your immediate family so without being too forward i think you can afford to mix things up a bit here without too much chance of messing things up totally. AG's advice was brilliant!! In terms of ego states within the relationship it sounds as though you are permanently in a critical parent(him)/adjusted child(you) role. If you start to play with your role, his will have to change, even though he won't know what he is doing.

It took the shock of my wife leaving for me to start to reflect properly on myself and realise my faults and change them where i can. I hope your husband doesn't get to that point with you, but you shouldn't have to live the rest of your life in this way. You deserve love, respect, intimacy, companionship and support from your partner. Following on from his childhood he may well need some counseling especially as it seems to affect his relationship with his and your families. If he is non responsive when you speak about this, why not write him a letter and give it to him before spending a weekend at your sisters? Give him a chance to reflect on how you feel for a change.....

Good luck with your situation, you deserve better.

Dave

[yogamad]

Thanks for all your comments, I'm finding it really helpful and I'm really starting to think about everything that's going on between husband and me. I do deserve to be treated with respect and I'm starting to see that.

One thing I haven't mentioned so far is that he used to hit me when we first started going out together (due to jealousy - thought other men were looking at me all the time). When we got engaged he gradually stopped and he's never laid a finger on me since.

Another thing I haven't mentioned yet is that I was anorexic as a child and took an overdose when I was 19.

I mentioned these things because I think they have something to do with how things are now.

AG when you say how did he make me phone my sister, I did it because we were literally out the door on the way there and I didn't want to be late and spoil my son's evening (that's the main reason and also didn't want him to see mum and dad arguing when it was important to him). Even though he doesn't hit me any more, I still feel a bit scared, I know he won't hit me, it's not that, but he gets very aggressive towards me and I find it so hard to stand up to him. If he talks to me rationally, then I can talk to him about how I feel. We went to relate and the woman could see he got aggressive with me and told him to speak more quietly and calmly. I take on board what you've said and any other comments and help are gratefully received so please don't feel like you're interfering. I feel stronger in myself already just reading all your comments. I think I do try to be the person he wants to be instead of just being myself. I actually like myself, I think I'm a nice person, I've got great friends, I'm happy in myself, have a great job.

After we finished at relate husband had a breakdown and was put on anti depressants for depression and anxiety. That was nearly a year ago and that was when the lack of sex and affection started and he's never been the same since even though he's back and work and is a lot better now.

I mentioned my anorexia because, although I'm fine now and have been for a long time, I am quite childlike (as I think you mentioned Dave). Husband says I live in a bubble where everyone's happy and don't take on board everyday issues and problems. We also talked about this at relate and I have since taken on practically all the bills, etc at home. When H was ill, he spent about 6 months off work, he had just started a new job and just walked out so I had to manage all the money and I only work part time.

Sorry I've rambled on but there is so much to talk about (I've still got loads more to get off my chest). It will have to wait though because I need to get ready for work.

Thanks again.
YM

[dave123]

Hi Yoga,

Thanks for sharing again, it sounds like this is a very confusing situation for you all. I didn't mean you were childlike or childish in my comments. Check out the transactional analysis that AG pointed you at and it should be a bit clearer what i meant. Like i said i'm no expert! ;-)

How was it left when the counseling finished? If things weren't sorted why did it finish?

Dave

[yogamad]

Hi Dave

I don't mean to sound thick but I'm not sure what you mean by transactional analysis?

[dave123]

Hi again,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis#The_Ego-State_.28or_Parent-Adult-Child.2C_PAC.29_model

Or the link that AG left you probably can explain it better than I. The roles that we take on in any relationship can be described in a Parent/Adult/Child way, and for me simply realising these things and looking back with 20/20 hindsight (which was awful) has helped me to know that in the future i will be a better person within a relationship.

An example would be;
"I've lost my car keys" which is a perfectly normal thing to happen, and the response from your partner could be;
"Lets look for them together" A logical helpful response i.e. Adult to Adult
or
"You're an idiot, why don't you leave them by the front door like i do" this response would probably be described as a Critical Parent to Adjusted Child.
From time to time we all need to swap roles within our life, having fun, being sensible when required, nurturing loved ones etc etc. So we need at times to behave in all 3 ways, but when those roles become fixed over a long period it can be very unhelpful, especially when someone or something changes.

Not sure if that'll help or not? Read the link and have a think. It might not twig anything for you but i found it quite helpful. At the very least your partner needs to treat you as a contemporary, and you need to not allow yourself to be treated badly.

Take care,

Dave

[Ageing Grace]

Hi, Yoga :)

What Dave and I are saying is:

The way your husband treats you is wrong and cruel - cruel to your children, as well.
It may well be because of his childhood, but that is no excuse.

Other people, with similar childhood issues, decide to deal with them constructively.
Your husband has chosen to continue his bullying ways.

You and he have set up a pattern of how you interact. This pattern is damaging.

He is not learning how to have easy-going, comfortable relationships (even with his friends)
You have become stuck in a sort of 'helpless child' mode. You are not a helpless child, you're a capable mother and a competent worker.

Believe it or not, you've done this between you.

You're unhappy (understandably!).
You want things to change, and they can.

He says you and the children are everything to him. We believe him.
Because he doesn't want to lose you, it is safe for YOU to change your pattern:-
He acts like a nasty parent. But you don't have to act like a helpless child.
If he wants things to change for the better, he will respond WELL to your changes :)


So how do you do these changes? Well, you just stop acting like a helpless child!

When somebody tries to control you - even if they seem angry - you have three choices.

You can attack them right back.
You can submit.
You can simply not allow them to control you.


Attacking them back will obviously lead to a lifelong battle! Not very pleasant ...
Submission, as you have found, doesn't stop the bullying and it makes you unhappy.
Refusing to be controlled shows the bully his methods don't work.


This is why I said stop playing by HIS rules, make your own.
If you keep on doing what he tells you, he will keep on pushing you.
If you act like a grown-up, the game will stop being fun for him.
When HIS game doesn't work anymore, he'll be free to try out better (more helpful) ways of interacting ...
and he will also gain more respect for you.


He says he wants a chance to bond with you all & create the happy family he never had.
This is how you can give him that chance.

I would like you to read Lundy Bancroft's book, "Why does he do that?". It explains everything very well.

A good book about transactional analysis is "Games People Play" by Eric Berne.

Have fun!

AG

[Ageing Grace]

Here's a very small story of my own.

Soon after my fiance and I moved in together, he threw a strop one morning about having a shirt for work. He was raging around the flat, face like thunder, yelling "Haven't I got any clean shirts?!" It was the first time I'd seen him like that ... but I'd often seen my father, and my previous husband, do it.

The old Grace would have immediately started apologising! But I didn't. I said, quite sweetly, "I don't know, did you wash any?"

It was my first experiment with changing the rules. There was never any more shouting about laundry :D

AG.

[JWD]

Ha ha ha, :-)

[dave123]

AG, great post and great story! Thanks for making what i said sound clever! ;-)

I hope it helps you out Yogamad.....

[yogamad]

It certainly did help, I understand what you both mean now, very interesting and I'm going to try it out straight away. I would say, for the most part, I am definitely the child in the relationship, I often feel like I'm being told off and I just let him get away with speaking to me like that because I don't know how to respond or what to say.

This morning my sister came over for a coffee and even she tip toes in as if she's expecting my husband to jump out and tell her off for being there. It's ridiculous. I mentioned she'd come over casually at tea time, the boys acknowledged me but husband didn't say a word. But it's a step in the right direction for me as normally I would've kept her visit a secret. We arranged a night out together in a couple of weeks too.

I would really like your thoughts on other things we fall out about (or he puts me down):

He thinks I'm vain because I take care of my appearance and asks me when am I going to give up on trying to look young and that I'll never look 18 again. I've told him I'm not trying to look 18 again and why shouldn't I try and look my best.

Gets fed up with comments from other men (and sometimes women) about my appearance. Our male friends always compliment me on how I look and make suggestive comments (in a fun way).

I've had sexual harrassment at three different places of work (one man even killed himself because he ended up having a disciplinary and got fired). The last time it happened was last year and when I told my husband because I was upset he told me off and asked why I didn't just tell him to stop. I tried to explain that I just froze and felt really uncomfortable. I didn't let him get away with it though and he got a good telling off and we've been fine since. I was looking for some support and didn't get any. Hopefully this will never happen again but if it did, I definitely wouldn't tell husband. He doesn't understand how it can happen three times and that I must be doing something but I don't do anything to encourage it.

I don't stick up for myself in front of my parents. My mum is a bit interferring in mine and my sister's lives (she means well). Eg, she'll say your car tax is running out at the end of the month. It does irritate me but I just ignore it. Husband feels I should tell her to mind her own business. My dad is a heavy drinker and my husband says he has no respect for him. He is horrible to my mum sometimes and husband says I should tell him to leave her alone but I find it hard.

I've already mentioned our families. Husband's family, as I've said, well educated, non drinking church goers. My family, drinkers, party goers.

I do too much housework.

He says we don't go out or do anything unless he organises it.

I think I'll leave it there as I said quite a lot. There are other issues (I told you it was complicated).

Sorry, it's such a long post!

[dave123]

Hi again, my counselor keeps telling me new behaviours take a long time to settle and become the "norm". Now that you have this idea of a new behaviour it is up to you to try it out!

Be assertive, be confident, be independent. Your pattern of behaviour seems to spread to extended family so your change will be noticeable and might upset the apple cart somewhat, but, you are an adult. You should react like an adult and be treated as such by everyone.

You deserve to look nice and dress however you choose, good for you for not giving in here and long may you do so!

Good luck and take care, (and enjoy the change!)

Dave

[yogamad]

Thanks for your support, Dave.

I'm going to try out this new way of thinking and behaving over the weekend with husband. I'm also seeing my parents tomorrow so will be more assertive when there.

I'll let you know how I'm getting on.

Thanks again.
YM

[Raymond]

I think you can break this control thing JWD. I have a feeling that even his parents will support you in this.

This doesn't have to be unloving or unrespectful. It is just a matter of knowing when it is happening and resisting it. One of the things you can do is allow your family more legitimate access to their grandchild/children. He has no right to cut them off in the way he does.

Sounds to me he is very ungrateful to those who adopted him from the orphanage and gave him a better start. Something not right somewhere.

You need to be really strong in this. Deep down he will know you are right if you do it properly. You can submit to good things but not this wrong control. He needs to be saved from it starting with his marriage.

Raymond

Raymond

[Ageing Grace]

Well done you, Yogamad!

Great to hear about your sister's visit - you're right, it is ridiculous that she's nervous about entering your house. I bet the boys were pleased to hear you tell about her coming over :)

A lot of the time, the simplest way to answer snippy remarks is to reply to what was said, not what was meant! Example: "You're never going to look 18 again" -> "That's true."

I know what you mean about your Mum. Trouble with parents is, they get stuck in Parent mode, because they are your parents :rolleyes: My mother does it all the time. I still respond like a cross teenager sometimes, but mostly now I just say something like "Thanks for the reminder". Seems to keep her happy ...

Wishing you the best for the weekend. Do let us know how your game's working out!

Cheers,
AG

[yogamad]

Hi

No, sorry to say so but husband's parents wouldn't support either of us in anything. They're just not interested. My mum even told husband's dad that he hasn't spoken to them for years and he just said "oh dear". Then, when he next spoke to husband, didn't mention a thing. He's in his 80s and doesn't want to get involved. My husband doesn't like his mum and neither do I much so we don't even see her much and she definitely isn't interested. As you've probably gathered he isn't interested in families apart from ours. His birth mother even contacted him for a while but she doesn't bother now as he didn't want to know.

On a positive note, things are going ok. I'm decorating bathroom at the moment and didn't put the lid on the paint properly. Husband said as if talking to a child (which I now realise) "put the lid on properly, that paint was very expensive". I answered as adult to adult and even though I didn't like how he spoke to me, I felt better by answering him as an adult. It's not as hard as I thought it would be so I'll definitely be working at it.

[dave123]

Good on you Yoga, keep at it. Your bit of self-knowledge will go a long way to changing things around you. With the parents being that old maybe they are a lost cause with changes in behavior but you are not!!

Take care,

Dave

[Raymond]

Well done JWD. You resisted the control and being treated as a child. Seems to me you are having to extend a lot of forgiveness, but that is part of a good marriage. We all have to do that but you seem to have more of a challenge of it than most. It will make you stronger if you don't buckle. You have to keep loving him but don't receive the control and use your wisdom as you have been doing when he treats you like a child. If you are doing your best critism like that is not helpful. We can all do what he does but then we can apologise afterwards when we see how we behaved.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks for your posts.

Dave, I read nearly all your thread you started about your wife leaving you (not quite to the end as it was one oclock in the morning and thought I ought to go to bed).

I can't believe how far you've come, you sound like a different person now compared to the one back in November. You've done really well. I think keeping busy is definitely good as it keeps us occupied without dwelling on things. I feel I know who I'm talking to now I've read your story and understand where you're coming from.

Like you, I'm so grateful for all the support I get from people on here who don't even know me. I do feel like my problems compared to, say, yours and other people whose partner's have left them sounds trivial. It doesn't feel trivial to me though, it's that rollercoaster you were talking about of ups and downs and for us lately, more downs than ups. It's like walking on eggshells, waiting to see if I upset him or get on his nerves.

Feeling positive for the weekend though so that's good.

[JWD]

Every time I get down, I just keeping feeling positive and hopeful. Think @m reading too much. Just went on a relate site that warns against deluded partners who don't accept marriage is over. Can't win LOL. edit whoops, yes you can. PMA

Oh, think I'll write a letter all about how I feel but not send it.

[yogamad]

Hi everyone, just a quick update on how I'm getting on. Well, I had quite a good weekend, we didn't fall out at all but there were just a couple of issues. We got through them without arguing which was good.

He is still unaffectionate even though we got on well this weekend but I guess it will take time. I'll just have to be patient.

One thing that is bugging me is that because he snores I have to sleep on the settee each night because I can't sleep. When I asked if he could sleep down there sometimes he replied that he was too old (he's only 41!) and that I was ok. He said there's a perfectly good bed upstairs but I just can't sleep, I try but always end up downstairs. Not sure what to do about that. I keep imagining that it'll be that way forever as he doesn't seem that bothered about it. He even said he sleeps better with me downstairs.

Another thing is that there are a lot of b'days in his family coming up. Should I help him with card/present buying (as I usually do) or let him do it himself (considering mine aren't even allowed over the doorstep).

I would be grateful for any thoughts on this.

Thanks.

[Raymond]

Thats one problem we have Yogamad (sorry I called you JWD a few threads back - on too many threads probably).

It's actually my wife that snores. I used to go in a seperate room just to get some sleep because of being woken up all the time. (We still had plenty of you know what). Funny though you adjust to sleeping somewhere else. I went back in at weekends when it was not so crucial. When the kids got older they needed their own rooms so I moved back in. In the end we got twin beds, a flexible polystyrene screen covered in cloth matching the curtains with a matching curtain to pull accross. I still hear the snoring but I can live with the level now, plus it's not constant so it's alright now. The beds are together so it's still like a double bed but the seperation enables more sleep.

Although I consider we have a good marriage one can still get practical problems to sort so that part of it could happen to any kind of marriage.

I think you should still help him with the cards etc. As I said before resist the control but still have the respect. Giving tit for tat will cause a rift which you don't want. Still giving and helping him should give you the strength to resist the control when you need to. We want to build good relationship here if possible while still dealing with the negative. It's a fine line I know but you need to tread it if you can. We all have freewill and any control of your will is control. You want to do the right things because you want to not because you have to. That is part of love. If you feel forced to do something through control or fear there is something wrong.

Being married does not negate your responsibility to the rest of your family even though your husband should be your prime relationship, but I know he is making this very difficult.

Raymond

[dave123]

Hi Yoga,

Thanks for reading my thread, i hope the journey i'm on helped a bit. I haven't read it myself yet so you're ahead of me!

I understand what you mean about comparing your position to other peoples, i have done that on here, at al-anon and on the Relate course and numerous times i have thanked the lord for my "small" set of problems. What's important though is that we are in the middle of our situations and the affect our lives no matter what they are... Some of the circumstances will be different but we all deserve happiness, fulfillment and compassion, no matter what.

Whatever you decide to do during the next few weeks is entirely up to you, put yourself first and take care!

I hope you're having a good few days,

Dave

[yogamad]

Thanks, Raymond, that's really helpful. I will still help with the cards, etc, I think you're right. It is hard though because when I send cards to my parents, sister, I just put from myself and our sons and when they send Christmas cards it's just to me and the boys. It hurts even though they've tried their best to get on with him and it just seems stupid to give and receive cards with H name on with they haven't spoken for so many years.

Another thing. My sister's little girl's b'day is the day before husband's b'day. My niece's b'day falls on a Tuesday which is the day H has off each week. I know he won't want me to go to her party on his day off. As she was born so late at night, I wanted to go and see her the next day which was his 40th b'day and he woudn't let me, saying that I was putting my sister before him. I thought this was so selfish because we had planned lots of things to do for his b'day. Anyway, in the afternoon, he fell asleep and said I could go. It was like I had to wait for his permission. The way he says it, he really makes me believe that I'm the selfish one, what do you think?

[Raymond]

It is sad YM how he cuts himself of from your relations. Obviously they feel it by addressing cards only to you. You are right you cannot put his name on cards unfortunately. It would just be hippocritical. Family is very important and God given.

You are not the selfish one YM. I suppose it's something that he recanted and changed his mind. I still think it is the rejection working. How old was he when he was adopted?

Marriage shouldn't be working like this. If my wife wanted to go to someone elses party on my birthday (I doubt if she would) I would mention that it is my birthday on that date but the decision in the end would be hers not mine. Provided you wanted to do the right thing you shouldn't be controlled but I suppose that is part of the problem why you came on here in the first place.

Any control is not going to work to your benefit in the end. If you are subject to him it should be by your choice, otherwise it is not worth much. Love doesn't seek it's own but the good of the other. It does show a lot of insecurity within him. Does he control the children as well? Some controlling people do not release their children, (in their own minds), when they are old enough so you need to watch that for the future. The phrase people use is that the apron strings were never cut. You can always tell an adult that is still controlled by a parent.

The great thing is that you are beginning to see it. Some are not aware that it is happening, but they feel the affects and wonder what is going on.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks, Dave, for taking the time to respond, it's really keeping me going with all the words of encouragment. I'm still feeling positive, had a good weekend and last couple of days. We went to the cinema on Sat and went for a coffee today. We're definitely talking more (not about us) just generally but that's better than it was before. H is friendlier to me which makes me more friendly towards him. Thought about linking my arm through his while in town today but didn't in case he rejected me (maybe next time). I'm putting what I've learnt on this forum into practice, sticking up for myself more and putting H in his place firmly but not nastily and it does seem to be making a difference. I'll keep on going and hopefully we'll get there one day! Hope things are going well for you too.

Raymond, H was adopted at 6 wks I think and no, he's not controlling towards the boys, it's just me. He has a lovely relationship with them and is a great dad so I've no worries there.

My dad is a heavy drinker and can get horrible with my mum and that is the main thing my husband hates about him. I don't like it either but he's still my dad at the end of the day and there is a lot of good in him too when he's not drinking. If H doesn't want to speak to them, I've accepted that but I wish he wouldn't say horrible things, I'd rather he said nothing at all.

On a positive note, it's my 40th b'day in August and we'll be on holiday in Italy then. He asked if I wanted to postpone our holiday so that I could spend the day here (because it's my sister's and my dad's b'day on the same day) so that was nice of him. I'm amazed he said that but I said I'd rather be on holiday which is the truth.

Thanks for listening.
YM

[dave123]

Hi Yoga,

Well done for being firm with you responses, your responses will retrain your fella hopefully over time. A more confident you with better self-esteem will improve your life and the lives of people around you. Not to mention being a good role model for your kids.

Take care,

Dave

[Ageing Grace]

Hi, Yoga :)

That's really amazing about the holiday question! Wow, you work fast :D

Just a little reminder to 'reward' him for being considerate to your feelings - a smile & thankyou is enough.

Keep up the good work! I'm enjoying your thread now :cool:

AG

[yogamad]

Hi Dave & AG

Thanks, both of you, for your positive comments, I'm taking on board everything that I've been reading on this forum and it's really helping me. If I feel a bit low or a bit unsure, I just think of all the support I'm getting on here and it boosts me back up. I definitely need to work on my confidence and self esteem and it can only make things better for me and our boys.

Actually, AG, thinking back to when we discussed our holiday, i don't think I did thank him, I must remember to do that more often when he does something nice.

I've actually slept for two nights now in bed, rather than on the settee. When I hear the alarm go off at 7 am I go upstairs to bed for another 1/2 hr because I think I deserve it because I don't sleep brilliantly downstairs. I used to get up at 7 am too but I love my little lie in these days. The only thing is H gets ready in the bedroom and then at 7.30 just closes the bedroom door, doesn't say a word, not goodbye or anything. I don't know why, perhaps he hates the thought of me staying in bed when he's up. This morning, because I've been sleeping well, I got up and he was like "why are you up, is the bed burning?" I was just telling him it was because I've had a great night's sleep and he walked out the front door but did mutter a goodbye. I don't know whether this is his sense of humour and I just don't get it or what (you'd think after 20 yrs together I'd know but I don't). I waved out the window and he waved back. Also, when I get home I always ask him how his day was and he tells me and that's it, no mention of how my day was. I always let it go before but last night said that as he wasn't going to ask how my day was I'd tell him anyway. I'm stopping that tit for tat which I always used to do and being more dignified as AG mentioned earlier on in my thread.

So, I'm making little steps in the right direction I think but we've still got a long way to go. Hey, perhaps my 40th b'day will be the turning point for us - I hope so!

[yogamad]

Hi everyone, just a quick update on how I'm getting on.

Well, the atmosphere in our house is definitely a happier, more relaxed one for everyone. I think H has noticed some small change in me, in that I'm happier, don't get upset so easily if he says something not very nice, I'm a more confident in myself, I'm more chatty, less sensitive, etc.

Changes in him are that he seems more happy, more chatty, a bit more caring towards me and isn't putting me down as much. Last night I came home from work very tired, he cooked family a meal and bought me a bottle of wine and chocolates.

The only thing that is not changing is the lack of affection. The only affection I'm showing him is touching his arm occasionally if we talk, share a joke, etc. He is still showing me none at all. If he could just touch me in some way it would help but if our legs touch by accident he flinches away which is very upsetting for me. I worry that he is trying to make the best of our situation but doesn't feel that way about me anymore.

I've been reading other people's posts and have found them and the replies helpful even if their situation is different to mine.

Chin up as everyone's been saying

[Ageing Grace]

Thanks for your update, Yoga :)

It must really hurt your feelings when he pulls away from your touch. Try to remember that your responses are altering his (the rules of the game are changing) - and some of those will take quite a while. After all, his rules are born out of a lifetime's conditioning! Readjustments might take more than a few weeks ;)

It's just brilliant to hear the atmosphere in your home is improving. I'm so happy for you - and for your boys! Good for you!

Going back to your game - and touching:

You know how it feels if someone is having a go at you, or trying to make you listen to them, and they stick their face right up against yours? Makes you feel nervous & annoyed. Well, some people have extremely rigid personal boundaries and any physical contact makes them feel exactly that way. So, what you mean as an affectionate little touch could feel totally "in your face" to him.

The way you treat a person whose rules say "don't touch" is just the same as you would do with a shy animal, or somebody else's child. Make eye contact, use your voice expressively, keep your body language open ... and wait for them to come to you.

Don't worry about any times when you do touch him - but try to respect his personal space, and don't expect a friendly touch in return. If you just keep going the way you are, that physical boundary should start to soften. It will probably be gradual.

Good luck! And well done :)
AG

[yogamad]

Thanks AG, I really needed some positive feedback today. Since I first started posting, this is the lowest I've ever felt, not sure why, I feel like I'm coming down with something so maybe that's it. It's quite hard keeping positive when I don't always feel it and it also feels a bit one sided.:(

I had a good day yesterday, went shopping by myself to buy something for my mum for mother's day and also treated myself to a new bag and some jeans. I woke up this morning feeling positive but H said something to upset me this morning and for some reason I've felt low ever since. All morning I managed to keep going, smiling, being happy but by the afternoon I just had to go to bed. I'm aching all over and if I was on my own in the house I'd have had a good cry but I couldn't cos boys are here.

Husband and I haven't talked that much today after he spoke to me this morning. I answered him back by the way as an adult and felt quite pleased with myself. He went out for a ride on his motorbike and didn't come back til after lunch. He seemed alright then but I felt still felt a bit low.

I'm the sort of person who, if I feel a bit low, can quickly become quite depressed and can't get out of bed. I feel a bit like this now, where I don't want to get up and make tea but I know I have to and make sure uniforms are washed and ironed, etc. The 'old' me might have stayed in bed and H would then have to do the tea and lunch boxes, etc. Since I've started posting on here, I've realised I can't rely on anyone else but myself to make myself happy, it's up to me to pull myself together and look after myself so that's what I'm going to do.

I'm going carry on the good work I've been doing because it does seem to be going in the right direction, not going to let one little set back get in the way. A hug would feel really good right now though, I'll go and hug my boys.:)

[yogamad]

Sorry about my ramblings earlier, I'm calmer now but still feel down. Had a hug from my boys, cooked a nice tea, even made some brownies. I'm now watching desperate housewives with a glass of wine, husband has gone to bed in a bad mood.

Don't know why he's grumpy when it was him that upset me this morning, I should be the grumpy one. :confused::confused: Just as we were making progress, we've gone back a step or two, feel like i hate him at the moment but I'll try again in the morning.

[Hilary]

Hi YM, I've just read your whole thread. You are doing so well. You will get some bad days along the way as you have found out. And some days you may well be down, grumpy or even as if you are going down with something. But just remember you are going in the right direction. And having a glass of wine and watching a TV program in the evening is an excellent way to wind down.

A question for you to think about - now that you chldren are in their teens, what do you want for the rest of your life? what is the meaning in life for you? What will be your purpose in life for once they have left home, and what are you passionate about other than your boys?

Don't expect to have instant answers - these are the big questions in life and should be mulled over. You might even change your mind about them as you grow and develop into your next stage of life. I used to find these questions helpful on my bad days. They would keep me focussed on the bigger picture when I was feeling generally negative about the day to day stuff.

Remember too, you can have a Big Hairy Audacious Goal for the future. Such goals might seem absolutely impossible, but let it draw you further. If you shoot for the stars you might not make it, but you'll get a lot further than if you just focus on what is on the inside of your front door.

[Ageing Grace]

Hilary's a fantastic motivator - and I always follow her advice! :cool:

When you wrote about your husband acting grumpy today, it occurred to me that he might be feeling the effects of the new improved you!

Just imagine, if you've gone through your whole life acting like everything's a battle - and you have to fight to win at every turn - you may not like it very much (or even like yourself very much) but it's what you're used to.

Then, suddenly, someone starts treating you with dignity: not fighting or submitting, just treating you nicely as an equal. It's going to throw you off-beam for a while - you'll have to figure out this new scenario!

He may not have realised, yet, what's happening. Or maybe he just started to realise today :p

I'm not suggesting for a minute that you backtrack, Yoga! As you said - you're already helping yourself and your children :) Just as importantly, you're making it possible for your husband to discover new ways of interacting and to be the head of a happy family at last.

I wonder if he'll raise the topic with you?

Remember to treat yourself well :)

AG x

[yogamad]

Thanks Hilary and AG for replying, it was so nice to read your posts this morning and know that people are here for me. I woke up still feeling down, with a sense of dread (don't really know how to describe it):(

I feel ready for the day (sort of), the sun is shining and after reading your advice I'm going to plough on with everything I've been doing. I always cycle to work so will enjoy that in the sunshine and I really enjoy my job so I'll probably have a good day and be feeling better by the time I get home. Hopefully, H will be in a better mood by then as well and we can put the weekend behind us and move on.

Hilary, thanks for the advice, I'm not the sort of person who has ambitions in life, I'm happy as I am (without the grumpy husband, of course). That sounds terrible I guess but I will think about what I want from life. Apart from my boys, I love doing yoga (obviously) :D and keeping myself fit, travel. That's it really, not alot is it (and that's hobbies isn't it, not ambitions). My husband thinks I'm dull but I'm beginning to realise I'm not, it's him with the problems not me. After years of being told things like that, you do start to think you are dull, your self esteem goes right out the window.

Thanks for your advice, too, AG, you are always so helpful. I think H has realised something's changed in me, I am always cheerful, smiling, chatty (sometimes a bit forced like yesterday) and am definitely taking charge more. Perhaps he is getting used to the 'new' me which resulted in him being grumpy, I'm not sure.

I'll keep you posted on our progress.

Thanks, again,
YM:)

[Ageing Grace]

Thanks for posting, YM :)

I keep meaning to ask: Have you thought of joining an Al-anon group, like Dave did? It might help you get a handle on how your father's drinking has influenced your relationships.

Just an idea.
AG

[yogamad]

It hadn't ever crossed my mind, AG. I've talked to my mum and sister and about it and even my dad abit but that's it. To be honest, it's not really something I feel I want to do, it could be helpful though. I talked to a counseller about it a couple of years ago and she was very helpful and supportive.

My sister and her partner find it irritating when my dad drinks because he gets argumentative, etc. They handle it better than I do with my husband because they can talk about it and her partner doesn't say anything horrible. For instance, her partner might say "your dad was quite hard work tonight" and then sister could reply "I know, he really got on my nerves". Whereas my husband didn't say a word for 15 years and then said he hates him. I always stand up for my dad because I don't like to hear what my H says about him.

I'll bear al non in mind for the future in case I change my mind.

Husband and I are back to where we were before our fallout over the weekend, communicating, house is happier again, still alot of work to do though. I feel better than yesterday too, I'm making sure I look after myself as said so often on this forum.

Have to get ready for work now even though I don't feel like it (been sitting in the garden in the sunshine).

Thanks, again.:)

[Raymond]

I think working on resisting the control is a lot to handle Yogamad and you are obviously making progress. There are signs of better things happening in your marriage with regard to that.

There are other problems as you have outlined on here but handling too much in one go may not be wise. You have to pace yourself and choose when you are ready to tackle the other problems if you can, although by the sound of it the problems seem to be in him and you may be limited to suggestion. If they are wise suggestions though he might be open.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks Raymond, I think I am making some progress, even if it is slow. I feel happier in myself knowing that I can have some control and feel up to dealing with the consequences now. Although H appears a bit more relaxed, he is also very distant at the same time. He is looking for a new motorbike and when telling me about it he could talk for hours, showing me all the pictures, gear, etc. I've listened quite patiently as at least it means he's talking but I don't understand why he can't even ask how my day was.:confused:

During our 17 yrs of marriage, I've left I think 4 times to stay with my parents because I couldn't handle the arguments. About a month ago, he said I was useless as a parent and picked me up off the floor and literally propelled me into another room. I told him that when the boys had left home I was going to leave and he said he didn't want me to stay anyway. I keep thinking he's distant because he expects me to leave at some point. What do you think?:(

[Ageing Grace]

he said I was useless as a parent and picked me up off the floor and literally propelled me into another room.

YM, this is quite unpleasant bullying. I suspect he doesn't ask about your day because he doesn't care about your day ... I think you keep hoping he is not the man you married, but some other husband; a kinder & more considerate man.

The husband you have is the man who HIT you on an early date. (Because he was jealous?? Even if there were such things as reasons to hit your girlfriend - which there aren't - that wouldn't be one of them.) You went on to marry the same man that hit you, and now you wish he would care about your day.

I realise nobody is all bad. I understand that he probably means it when he says he would love a more relaxed & enjoyable life. I know exactly what it is to excuse your partner's shocking behaviour, and to keep believing things would be better ... if ... ...

Only a downtrodden girl would marry the man who hit her: a girl who learned early that she must take the blame for others' bad behaviour. If you've read my own story, you'll appreciate that I feel very close to you in some ways - and a million miles from you in others, because I have changed. I don't want to change you. I don't know you, and changing others is of no interest to me.

But I do want you to learn a few helpful strategies: strategies that normal people, from healthy families, learn naturally! Strategies, like taking charge of your own responses, that will set you up better for life. The fact that you cottoned on so quickly proves, if you needed proof, that there's an intelligent and proud woman in there somewhere. I hope you will continue to nurture this side of yourself, and to grow happier as a person.

I also hope your husband will respond as he can, if he chooses to. I hope the two of you will grow into a lovely old couple :) It will be his choice though. You can open the door for him, but you can't push him through it. There have been some encouraging signs. That's great - great for your sons, too.

Back to you. How did you become the girl who thinks it's OK for her boyfriend to hit her? The answer has to be in your childhood, and that's why I suggested Al-anon. With a temperamental, hard-drinking Dad, the odds are fairly short that it's connected. Simply to understand oneself is empowering: it doesn't have to lead to big changes unless you want them.

I wish you'd read some of the books we suggested. Even if you don't want to explore further (or not yet), I hope you will find out a little more about personal strength & confidence. You do yoga. Yoga goes beyond the body - does one of your teachers have any personal development recommendations for you?

I hope you'll keep posting. I care about how you're getting along!
AG

[yogamad]

Hi AG, thanks for your comments and for caring, I really appreciate it.

I think you're right, it probably was my childhood. I'll try to explain. I remember my mum and dad being brilliant parents, who were always there for us. My dad and my mum were drinkers but I didn't realise this until I was in my late teens and then it wasn't a problem, they were just social drinkers, not at home or anything. There were no rows, no arguments at home, just loving parents. My mum worked Saturdays so my Dad took sister and I swimming, walks with the dog, cooked us lovely meals, he was great.

Looking back I had a great childhood until I started secondary school. I went to a really rough school in the middle of a big council estate. I lived in a village and travelled by coach so all other kids thought I was posh. I absolutely hated it, if my sister was ill I hated going on my own. I wanted to do well but with teachers running out crying, etc I didn't do as well as I could've. That's when my anorexia started. I left school and went to college and passed all exams well. Still had anorexia and spent time in and out of hospital so still made no friends.

Went to college three evenings a week for four years to get more exams which I passed with flying colours and started work. Gradually started to come out of my shell and get over anorexia. Then completely went off the rails, got tattoos, shoplifting, sleeping around, lost my job.

So you see when I met Husband, I couldn't believe it that he wanted to still see me after we'd slept together, we had dates, I'd never had a proper boyfriend before. I never thought anyone would want me, let alone marry me, I wanted to get married and have a family but doctors told me I'd probably never have kids because I'd only ever had a few periods when I was 13 and that was it. I had a boyfriend, friends for the first time and I felt normal, we went out as couples, etc. When he asked me to marry him I said yes immediately and I loved him to bits.

I tried to get pregant straight away (without telling him) because I never thought it would happen but it did after a year. He was very angry at first but came around. Things were great until we moved 40 miles away from home because of his job. I tried for another baby (also without telling him) and had ectopic pregnancy, lost one ovary and one tube, massive internal bleeding and nearly died. The next baby we conceived by accident because doctors said no chance of getting pregant now but I did and that's my youngest son.

Husband worked long hours (6 til midnight some days) so I could stay at home and bring our boys up. I was tired (without help from family) and he was tired so we did argue sometimes but always made up and we were a happy family most of the time.

H sold his business and we moved back to home town and bought our house outright. Things ok at first til fall out with my parents/sister and have steadily downhill from there to the point where we are now.

I sorry I've said much more than I was going to because once I started I couldn't stop. So quite a bit has happened in my life and that's why I love my boys so much because I was told so many times I'd never have any.

Feel very low today, especially after typing all that out, feel very tearful, like my life's been crap. Very unlike me but I'm going to ring work and tell them I'm not coming in today, feel very guilty about it but just don't feel up to it.

Thanks so much for listening:o

[yogamad]

Sorry, forgot to say about yoga. I go to a class once a week and teacher is great but, although she gives us individual attention regarding poses, we don't go much further than that. There are lots of different styles of yoga, some more spirtual than others. I do a lot on my own at home and get a lot out of it because it's quiet, soft music, candles, etc and spend a lot of time on my breathing.

[Raymond]

Going back to an ealier thread Yogamad your husband may be a bit paranoic about you saying you're leaving when the kids grow up. He says he doesn't care but probably does. I don't think it adds to the stability of the marriage to keep saying that as it brings an atmosphere with it. It would be a major thing if my wife ever said that. It would be awful. One would have all sorts of things come into their minds like divorce, selling the house etc.

You want him to open up and ask about your day etc. but maybe you are putting doubts in his mind whether you are going to be still there. If a man wants to put himself out he needs to know that the other side is going to work on it as well. Maybe he feels insecure. I don't know. Just a thought. Personally we never ever use the word divorce even at the worse times as it can make the wrong shock waves go through a marriage taking away the security that it should be.

I know there are a lot of problems on his side but there may also be things you can fix from your side.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks Raymond, I agree with you. We are both to blame for things that have gone wrong in our relationship, I admit I'm not the easiest of people to live with, I get depressed very easily and find it very hard to feel better again. When I said about leaving when boys were older, I didn't really mean it and I don't think H meant what he said either.

As I didn't go into work today, I have been doing a lot of reading and research on relationships and feel I have gained a lot and am going to put it into practice. I don't find it easy to communicate with H, I just clam up, it's stupid really, he can tell me how he feels, but I find it very hard. When H gets home tonight I'm going to spend time with him, just talking and feel if we can get some of the closeness back. It's his b'day next month and I've bought some motorcycle stuff already which I know he will love and I'm going to really spoil him and take him out for a meal. I am really trying at the moment, just little things, but some days I don't feel it's getting me anywhere. I really do believe that we can both be happy, we've been together a long time and for a lot of that time we've been very happy. Wish I could give him a big hug when he gets home but I can't face the rejection, as I'm feeling low at the moment it could be very destructive for me.
Thanks Raymond.

[Raymond]

Have you heard about the five languages of love Yogamad?

Each of us has a main love language and when we don't get this we feel a bit onloved. One may love somebody but it is not always perceived when we don't speak their love language so to speak.

The five things are Touch (hugs, cuddles etc.) Acts of Service, Words of Affirmation, Quality Time and Gifts (nothing expensive just the thought really). We commonly express love in our love language instead of the other persons.

My wifes main love language seems to be touch but that is exactly what she never got at the beginning. Coming from an orphan background I was not a very tactile person. When I learned this it made a tremendous difference. Hugs and touch are just one of the normal things now. This is not sex which is something else. Everyone likes sex or should do. I am talking about physical touch as affection.

I know that everybody loves all the love languages to a certain extent but some of the things will be a persons main love language, something that you cannot really leave out.

There is a book called The Five Languages of Love by Gary Chapman which goes into it all.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks Raymond, I looked yesterday on line at the five languages of love and found it very interesting. My husband used to love touch and needed a lot of hugs, kisses so it's funny now that it's me missing them. Also he likes gifts and I have to admit that apart from b'days/Christmas I've never really bought him that much. I would definitely say he is more caring in that way than me, would think nothing of buying me a little gift.

I think when our sons were born, they really became my life and I think I probably neglected H a bit without meaning too. I suppose I'm always so busy with work, boys, school, housework that I actually find it hard sometimes to fit time in for him but I'm trying to change this. Apart from husband's work he has nothing else to take up his time compared to me so he has more time for me (or used to).

[Ageing Grace]

Thank you so much for that long post, YM. I'm sorry it made you feel sad to write down the things that happened to you in the past - but am glad it prompted you to do some research!

As we've said so often in here, it often does take a personal crisis to trigger long-overdue changes in ourselves ... or perhaps our changes start to happen, and that triggers the crisis! Who knows? But with so much suffering in your past, and your amazing clarity on how it affected you, it surely is time for some more 'healing' in you. You're quite inspiring, you know :D

I really hope this evening goes well for you! Your positive & generous approach is lovely. Good luck!

AG xx

[Raymond]

Maybe you can work on small gifts Yogamad? When the opportunity presents itself of course. Timing is everything. You don't want to do it mechanically. It may well be his love language. Even if only one person is sowing love it can help the marriage and cause a response in the other eventually.

Funny I used to fix everything in the house putting everything right etc. and couldn't understand why she wasn't happy. It was hugs and touch needed of course. I had to adapt to what she actually wanted.

It's strange how the touch and sex has disappeared. Maybe it really is to do with the relationship you have.

I do think a little gift will go a long way here if done sincerely.

I know you have your needs as well but someone has to start in enriching this marriage more and love is the only way. You will need to be forgiving as well for the way he treats your family. Forgiveness doesn't make it right but it will needlessly stop you being bitter about it when it seems that you cannot do anything about it. A good example can often make us change when nothing else will.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks for both your posts. I can't believe someone called me inspiring, I have such a low opinion of myself most of the time that AG saying that I'm inspiring does me the world of good. I read other posts on this forum and think why can't I be like them, they're witty and funny and I'm just not like that. I'm quite quiet, like my own company sometimes, shy and as H said have no sense of humour. I need to keep reminding myself that I am a lovely person who has just made a few mistakes along the way and not beat myself up about them. What else did you say, that I wrote a lovely and generous post? Did I?

I will work on the gifts, Raymond. His b'day is coming up so it's my chance to spoil him a bit and show him I care. Of course, I know I have to keep it up but not to do it mechanically.

It's funny but H has always said he likes it when I'll poorly because I talk more and I see where he's coming from. Because I didn't feel well yesterday we sat and talked all night but if I was well I'd be rushing about all over the place trying to get everything done.

Forgot to say yesterday that when he got in from work he mentioned that he still suffers from anxiety and I asked him to tell me about it but he said he couldn't be bothered. I know why he said that because he felt it might end in an argument, we just end up going round in circles and never get anywhere and the anxiety is still there so what's the point? I didn't mention it again after that and neither did he. I asked if he could make the tea and he said that he'd been to work all day but he could see I didn't feel well so he made the tea and packed away in the end.

During our evening I was watching something on TV and said oh my god in a particular way and said "don't say it like that" and I said "why, does it get on your nerves"? He replied "you sound exactly like your sister when you say it like that". So you can see how much he must hate my sister but I'm leaving that issue for now and working on us. And working on me and I'm going to tell myself that I'm a lovely person every day who deserves to be happy!

Thank you both so much for helping me along the way, it really is helping. :0)
x

When

[Raymond]

Yes best to work on you.

You are not where you should be but you are not where you used to be so there is progress.

Raymond

[JWD]

You're doing great yoga. And you are a lovely person. Look how hard you're trying here. x

[yogamad]

Thanks Raymond and JWD. Went back to work today after two days off. I struggled all day though, can't seem to snap out of feeling down. I've got a busy weekend planned so that will probably snap me out of it.

Husband said he would like us to go away for the weekend for his b'day without the boys. He asked if could ask my parents to have them (he doesn't want to speak to them but doesn't mind using them as babysitters!).:mad: I feel abit guilty as oldest son is nearly 16 and will hate staying with grandparents but younger son is not old enough to be left for that long. Also they probably wouldn't eat if left to their own devices. It would do us really good to have a whole weekend to ourselves. It's good that H suggested to go away so he must want to spend time with me.

Hope everyone is ok and has a good weekend.:o

[JWD]

Hope your weekend went well yoga. :-)

[yogamad]

Thanks for asking, JWD. I had a great day yesterday. Took my mum and dad out to lunch and had a lovely time, then went out in the evening with my sister. So was feeling in a good mood when I woke up this morning (even though it was on the living room floor again due to H snoring).:(

Boys made me breakfast in bed, gave me some lovely presents and I was looking forward to the day. That was, until H ruined it for me. He was telling me something and I didn't understand so I was asking and he said "oh, what's the point, you're arguing with me again" and walked off. That was it, nothing more than than but I felt hurt that he'd upset me on mothers day. I know it doesn't sound that bad now when I say it but apart from the boys being lovely the atmosphere with him was awful. I drove to a restaurant for lunch which was a good 1/2 hr away and we didn't utter a word to each other. Luckily the boys had their ipods so didn't realise the tense atmosphere. By the time we got there we were just about speaking to each other but the day was ruined for me. If he said it once, he said it a thousand times, that I'm not his mother, it's for the boys to spoil me and I know he's right but he could've driven, ordered our meals but I had to do it all.

I'm just disappointed after I felt we were making progress, we've gone back again. He did nothing to make the day feel special for me and I feel like I hate him right now. I don't feel like I want to try at the moment to be nice to him because it all feels so one sided. I'm fed up with asking him how his day was when he never asks me, I'm fed up with asking how his parents are and he never asks me how mine are. I feel I'm doing lots of little things for him and he's not doing anything.

So I've ended my weekend feeling down again and not looking forward to the week ahead. I keep thinking tomorrow's another day and to keep at it but God it's hard. I really feel like he despises me right now but I don't know what it is I'm doing that's so wrong.

Hope you had a good weekend, JWD, better than mine anyhow:)

[JWD]

Right, well what you could do is not ask him how his day is. Just try it for a few days, see if he notices. If he asks you eventually, just say great thanks.

Treat it as a game, you've nothing to lose have you. How dare he not realise he has a doting wife by his side. Who does he think he is. Lets just wait for fathers day and see what he gets.

You're wonderful and he is blind.

[yogamad]

Hi JW, I didn't ask him how his day was when I got home, just asked the boys. H asked how the boys' day was but didn't ask me, not that I thought for a minute he would. He's been very 'off' all evening, not speaking much and I've not been speaking much to him either, don't really feel like it if I'm honest.:( I've kept myself busy since I got home from work which seems like the best thing to stop myself dwelling on everthing, now feel very tired.

Yesterday I thought the same thing, wait til Fathers Day. Mothers Day always means a lot to me and he knows it does, miserable git! I'll make sure the boys get him something but as for organising anything else, he can forget it. As he said, he's not my father so it's not up to me.:D

[JWD]

Ha that's the spirit.

We've all been in a big bubble of confusion today:D

I can't stand huffy people. what's the point?

You carry on doing what suits you.

[Ageing Grace]

He was telling me something and I didn't understand

:confused: You've said this quite a few times, Yoga, and I'm curious!
Was he trying to explain how the CERN project will prove or disprove the Higgs Bosun theorem? Or something a little more everyday??
It's just that you don't seem particularly thick to me, so I wonder how this "not understanding" scenario happens so often between you.

I have a little AG Therapy[TM] thought for you today.
I was looking forward to the day. That was, until H ruined it for me
Ha! Ruined a lovely day! Negated all the nice things your boys had done?! ... only possible if you let it.

Say it rained. Bit of a nuisance, but it probably wouldn't ruin your day.

Try observing* H's tantrums as if they were bad weather. "Hmm, that's a bother! Never mind, it'll blow over ... "

See if you feel any different ;)

AG x
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

* Things that have helped me - yours might be different:

Flicks hair while talking
Goes blotchy around the neck
Always coughs/sneezes after second sentence
Makes little clutching motions with hand, like a baby
Starts saying "Do you see?" after every statement (answer: mmm)
Stamps right foot
Goes "pffft!" before restarting speech
Left eye becomes lazy
... etc

* Feel free to post yours, if you decide to play
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought some people might not get where I'm headed with Yogamad's game theory. In this area - tantrum responses - it's very simple.

The person throwing a tantrum isn't actually aiming to get a point across: if they were, they'd be patiently trying different ways to explain it. They're letting off steam.

Whether the cause of their frustration has anything to do with you or not, you won't find that cause out whilst they're blowing off their steam. And you certainly can't transform a frustrated rant into a rational discussion, because that's not what's happening; a frustrated rant is a frustrated rant - like a thunderstorm.

All of which is well and good. But if you're the sole target for these storms - or if you're a very sensitive, self-blaming type of person - you will tend to feel shouted, hurtful words as if they are weapons pointed right at you - even if you 'know' they are not. Watching the storm lends you patience and, believe it or not, sympathy.

When I was a child, I was out on Lake Como (Italy) in a little boat, during one of the lightning storms that love to settle on Alpine lakes. The boat was driven by a local boatman - he wasn't scared, but I was terrified. A few years later, I watched one of those storms from my balcony on the shores of the same lake. I went out in my nightdress to see it: I got soaked. The storm was beautiful!

Later, a therapist showed me how other people's 'storms' are just like that Alpine thunderbowl. The boatman wasn't afraid, because he knew how to read the weather and he never took it personally. My therapist taught me how to observe personal storms, like I did on the balcony, and to read them like the boatman did.

At the most basic level, you regain your sense of self during an outburst.
In favour of the 'storming' person, you have an interest in them - which is what they crave, even if they're going about it the wrong way.
In terms of the following few hours, there's less of an atmosphere because at least one of us remained stable during the storm -
- and, once a storm is spent - there's always calm, isn't there?

Looking to the bigger picture, observation can sometimes give you a whole slew of new insights into your partner :) And, believe it or not - I have sometimes found those storms beautiful, moving and enlightening!

Have to cook a very late supper now :o
AG

[yogamad]

That's a very late supper, AG!

I didn't realise I'd said that I didn't understand something so many times. I'll have to look back over my post and have a look. This particular understanding was to do with our neighbour. Another stressful thing in my life! She wants 2 feet of our front garden to widen her path and we've had solicitors letters demanding that we give it to her. Anyway, H was explaining about her plants growing over the top of our wall in the back garden which is about 6 feet high. I really couldn't see his point because she has shrubs which won't grow over the wall (I think H wanted to cut them off) and that was what I didn't understand. I asked him to explain what he was talking about and that was why he walked off in a huff.

I know what you're saying about not letting him ruin my day which was why I eventually started talking to him again. It's easy to think I can do what you suggest (which I will try) but not always so easy to put into practice. I'd love to be more that that and just let everything just wash over me and still carry on with life. Definitely going to try to be more like that! Having spoken to H about that episode he said because he is still anxious, anything can set him off which I suppose the worry of next door did. I will observe him next time and see what mannerisms he has.

Thanks for all your help and support AG and JW. :0)

[JWD]

You are probably so concious of waiting of him about to blow up that you're on edge. He sounds easily frustrated.

You be yourself yoga x

[yogamad]

You're right JW, I'm always on edge, waiting to see what I've done to annoy him which seems to be just about everything. :0(

Didn't say earlier because H was in the room and had to type post quickly but we have kissed twice today. Went shopping this morning, had a coffee and a nice chat. When I had to leave for work, I thought right I've had enough of this, and put my arms round him and asked if I could kiss him. He looked really uncomfortable and said that he wasn't going anywhere and that I could kiss him anytime I felt like it. I said it was abit hard if he turned his face away and he said he wouldn't again. I kissed him again when I got home from work and he seemed more comfortable with it. So it looks like he's making me do all the hard work, I can't imagine he's going to kiss me first any time soon. If I hadn't made the first step, we were just going to carry on like we were and I hate it. So, now I've kissed him, I'll carry on tomorrow and see how it goes.

[JWD]

I want someone to kiss me wahhhhhh

It's horrible thinking you are annoying someone isn't it, and then you keep asking of you have thereby annoying them LOL.

[Raymond]

Well done Yogamad about the kissing I mean. He is not resisting which is good. Hopefully you will be breaking barriers down to physical affection at least. The awkwardness he feels can go in time.

There are signs the he is trying. I felt that when he was talking about the fence and you didn't understand straight away something was getting in. Some of it was his impatience that you didn't understand but you need to make sure you don't appear confrontational without realising it when he is saying something you do not understand straight away. That little thing appears to have ruined the day for you. Just a thought.

Raymond

[georgie]

Good Luck Yoga Mad. I think patience is a huge and undervalued virtue in these times. I made the mistake of pushing and forcing things to a conclusion thatI really did not want. Show him love, but not pressure is my advice.
AG great post - wonderful storm metaphor - I think I can apply that to myself sad to say.

[yogamad]

Not a lot to report today. Hoped that H would give me a kiss before he left for work but didn't even say goodbye. I gave him a kiss when I got home and he responded.

It's all been quite calm in our house today. H and I watched The Apprentice together, I was looking forward to it, H said it was a load of rubbish, but he enjoyed it in the end. He's gone up to bed now, didn't get a kiss.

Last night in bed, I cuddled up to him which I haven't done for a long time, I don't know if he was awake or not but he didn't respond. As George said, I've got to be patient, loving and no pressure.

[Ageing Grace]

You are doing absolutely great, Yoga! He's lucky to have you :p

I'm sorry to hear his anxieties are still overwhelming him (as in, giving him cause to act unreasonably). The work you're doing must be a real source of comfort & security to him - even if he doesn't show it! At least you know the rest of us, here, are cheering you along ... I bet your sons and your sister are, too.

I wonder if you see, as clearly as we do, how far you've come in the few weeks since you started your thread? A person has to be in a pretty desperate state to join a forum like this one; Yogamad, the wimp who didn't even know her own opinions, is gradually becoming more conscious of her power to change things :) I'm so glad you kissed your husband!

Yes, be patient. But don't be a doormat. At the end of the day, Mr Yoga's choices are his own: he said he wanted a happy family life and, day by day, you're opening more doors for him to walk through to that very thing. At the same time, you're providing an increasingly positive model for your children and regaining some of the 'you' which had got lost in there somewhere ;)

Give yourself a whole sheet of gold stars!

AG xx

[Raymond]

I think one of the things he needs to learn is physical affection. While it is natural to you Yoga some of us had to learn it because of our backgrounds. It is really there underneath. The love languages is good on this. Maybe you can get the book and leave it around? I don't know. Love became much fuller for my wife when I learned to release it physically as well.

Raymond

[yogamad]

I've put all my gold stars up, AG.:o

No, he's not really showing any signs that he's noticed I'm behaving differently towards him but I hope he has noticed and appreciates the effort I'm making. To be honest I don't think our boys have noticed anything different either apart from the fact that H and I are a bit more relaxed around each other but we always put it on in front of them anyway. I'm lucky I have my sister to talk to as we can talk about absolutely everything and anything together but this is one of the things that always annoyed H. I have in the past asked sister fand my parents for advice/help instead of him and he felt I should've asked him and I agree I should've. I don't do that anymore but sister is great at listening to marital problems that I don't want to discuss with H.

I probably don't see how far I've come as well as others but I know I've become more confident, have my own opinions and I like the new me. I think H will like the new me too.:o

Raymond, H has always been very tactile and affectionate towards me since we first met, it's only been this last year that he's changed. When I asked him he said it was because he didn't feel close to me anymore. He's always been the more affectionate one, he's needs lots of cuddles/kisses. I think somewhere along the line, when the boys came along, work, etc I gradually became less affectionate due to tiredness more than anything else. No matter how tired, stressed he was he always gave me a kiss and a cuddle. I know I spent too much time with the boys, housework/etc and not enough time with H but am really trying to make sure H comes first now. It's hard to make sure boys are ok, H is ok, I'm ok, the housework is done, go to work, etc, etc, etc. I know I need to relax more as I'm always rushing about from one thing to next to get as much done in the day as possible which is probably quite annoying for H.

Today, H went to work this morning without saying goodbye again. I got home before him and he walked straight past me so I followed him into the kitchen and gave him a kiss which doesn't seem quite so strange now. Haven't seen much of him tonight as I went to my yoga class. When I got back he was asleep and all the dishes were still in the sink so I stacked the dishwasher. Is that being a doormat or should I have left them.:confused:

Thanks for all the support and for cheering me on!:o

[georgie]

You are very patient, and this is a wonderful quality. I hope 'good things come to those that wait" proves to be true. My haste and impatience have caused me a lot of regret. I wish there was some kind of magic formula to get through to these guys when they are going through this kind of life episode.

[Raymond]

It's nice to know that he has always been the affectionate one Yoga. This makes it just a matter of working on your marriage to get back to the closeness you had and the affection should flow again.

I can't make any judgments on whether you should have loaded the dishwasher or not. If you had the energy just do it. If he was fast asleep love believes the best i.e. that he was tired from a hard days work and had dropped off. Dwelling on whether you are a doormat or not isn't profitable as it would be yet another area for tension to get in and build resentment. If you were tired and needed to crash out that is different. I don't think it is worth judging our spouses as all sorts of things can get into the marriage. When something directly affects you that that is the time to say how you feel and talk things through. Making character judgments can lead to a wrong type of criticism which can affect the marriage negatively.

We have to accept our spouses as they are. They usually want to improve themselves as we do but love is paramount.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Georgie, thanks, I guess I am quite a patient person, I should've added that to JWD's thread about what we like about ourselves.

Thanks, Raymond, what you said made sense and it's what I thought myself actually. H was tired after work and I felt ok so just cleared away. Today has been the same as yesterday really, I had to go after H to get a kiss as he wasn't going to come to me but that's ok, I'll just keep carrying on as I am. Weekends are usually when we argue the most so I'm hoping we will be ok. Going shopping tomorrow and cinema in the evening. Feeling relaxed right now and hope it stays that way.

[Ageing Grace]

Hello Yogamad :)

I wrote you a long reply but forgot to copy it before I got logged out. It disappeared in the ether :( Have since written an interminable post in the 'Control' thread, some of which replies to you but none of it specific.

Anyway. No, of course stacking the dishwasher doesn't make you a doormat :)

What you're doing's very cool :) Stick with it!

Hey, I could have done 60 lines in the 6 I've written here. (Still cross about losing the long post though!)

Have a nice weekend
AG xx

[Raymond]

I find that if one has written something with a bit of effort that it is best to save it on word or something as sometimes the post doesn't take and it is infuriating when you have to start again or give up.

As AG says Yogamad you are doing well and need to persist. Your affection is building a culture between you and I hope will bring out the old affectionate husband you had. You are sowing good seeds there. Love that operates where there is a return or not is powerful.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Do you know what, I've had a great weekend.:):) It's just been relaxed, I can't remember having a weekend like this for ages.

Whole family went shopping yesterday and we all bought something we wanted, had lunch out, it was great. One of the things H and I always fall out about is when he points out some clothes he likes for me but I don't like them and he gets really annoyed. Well, yesterday he pointed out several items that I didn't like and he didn't go off in a huff.:) When it came to lunch, I made sure I took charge and decided where we were going and which table we'd sit at, little things that H has always done before. We went to the cinema in the evening and held hands during the movie, then came home and cuddled up on the settee and talked. It's all me cuddling up to him and holding his hand but I'm hoping he will hold my hand one day.:)

All in all, at the moment I'm happy.:):)

[Ageing Grace]

Do you know what, I've had a great weekend.:):) It's just been relaxed, I can't remember having a weekend like this for ages. ... Whole family... lunch out, it was great ... clothes ... I made sure I took charge ... held hands ... cuddled up on the settee and talked. It's all me cuddling up to him and holding his hand but I'm hoping he will hold my hand one day.:)

All in all, at the moment I'm happy.:):)

Whooo!!! :D Thank you for posting that, Yoga! Go you!

AG xxx

[Raymond]

That's great Yogamad. I thought it was important that you didn't allow yourself clothes that you didn't like. Well done.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks so much for the support and advice you've given me since I started this thread. I feel like I've come a long way since I started, I've learnt that I can be in charnge of my life and can change things for the better.

I honestly do feel that I wouldn't of made any of these changes without the support of everyone on here, it's made all the difference to me being able to speak (or write!) to someone every day.

I'll keep you posted :0)
Love Yoga

[yogamad]

I'm not feeling quite so positive as I was at the weekend. Things are just ticking along the same. H still doesn't say goodbye in the morning, I'm still kissing H when I get home from work and cuddling him in bed. He isn't making any attempt to kiss or hold me but seems happy enough to let me kiss or hold him. I don't know if I'm just being impatient, wanting too much too soon. If he could make some small amount of effort to show he cares it would make me feel more positve that we're going in the right direction. He's just gone up to bed without saying goodnight, just walked out of the living room and I heard the bedroom door close.

I'll keep going though with what I'm doing, it's early days I suppose.

[JWD]

:( you must feel so horrible. Not nice. why is this so hard? It shouldn't be so hard should it.

I'm tempted to tell you not to bother trying to kiss him to see what he will do then but don't trust my own judgement on anything these days.

save yourself yoga, think about you and what you need.

[yogamad]

You know, I don't think he'd do anything if I stopped kissing him, I think things would go back to exactly how they were at the beginning of my post. I'm making so much effort in other ways too, I'm being really attentive, listening to his problems at work, offering him a beer when he gets home, helping him do some gardening (I hate gardening), folding his clothes up, little things like that and I don't know if he's even noticed. If he has, he's not shown it.

I'm going to bed now to cuddle H (well his back anyway as he's always on the very edge of the bed with his back to me).

Hopefully I'll have a better day tomorrow but it will probably be much the same. How long is this going to go on for before I see some changes in him?:confused:

[JWD]

Scrape your nails down his back. That should get a reaction. kidding. Hope you get a cuddle tonight. xx

[yogamad]

That's a thought, I'll have to remember that lol.

I put my arm round him but no response whatsoever and no goodbye again this morning, not that I thought he would.

[Raymond]

It is very strange Yogamad especially as you said he used to be very affectionate. Maybe he is going through change. It is still early days Yogamad. You must remember you are still resisting the control that was operating. You are right to carry on that and that is essential. Nevertheless he will be adjusting to the new you and may be feeling bewildred. I think your physical affection perfectly balances your resistance to control showing that you are not against him but still love him.

I would give it more time but maybe not try so hard. Keep it going but don't put all your hope on just that. He is getting used to you doing it and is probably enjoying it. Keep it going. This is not how it should be all the time but you are trying to rekindle the physical aspects again.

Sorry to get personal but are you putting your hands in other places if you know what I mean or do you feel that is a no go area. How would you think he would respond if you did?

Raymond

[yogamad]

No, definitely not, I think he would run a mile if I did. Also, after not having any contact for a year I don't feel ready for anything more than kissing and cuddling either. I'm hoping that one day it will just happen naturally when we both feel ready to go further. Last October we were going out for the evening and he said I looked sexy in my dress and tried to bend me over the bed but after not having had sex for a long time I didn't want to have a 'quickie', I wanted it to be something more than that. So I rejected him and now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't have.

[Ageing Grace]

Hello, Yoga :)

Sorry to hear you're feeling down after your good weekend.

Small acts of service, like clothes-folding, gardening, etc, are very important to a relationship but they are not crucial factors. At the end of the day, you could hire somebody to do that stuff, without any relationship worries!!

There's a difference between being considerate (offer of beer, how was your day, etc) and housekeeping. Unless help with the gardening is a matter of significance to him, I don't see why you should do it.

As Raymond says, the overriding issue for you at the moment is building up your own sense of self-worth. Next, I think, comes a healthy balance of power between you. If you each do a more or less equal amount of little things for the other, then the little things are OK for the moment. There is nothing to be gained by doing more.

When sex has been off the agenda for a long time, it does start to feel very awkward - not only for you, but possibly for him as well. Although you're currently making all the efforts towards physical closeness, I wonder if it has helped you feel more confident in that area?

What would happen if you told him he looks sexy?

Gotta go, hope to read more from you later ...
AG x

[yogamad]

Hi Grace

I see what you mean about the clothes folding, etc, in fact H has mentioned before this sort of this doesn't mean that much to him. He has been asking me to help him in the garden for ages because he's transforming the front and back (since his breakdown, he finds that gardening helps stress) so there's alot to do. So I think he might of appreciated the help there.

Both of us have always been confident in the bedroom and it's never been a problem til now. If he responded to my kissing him, things could progress from there but seeing as how he's not showing any response at all it's a bit hard. I've told him he looks sexy a couple of times this week and I meant it but I didn't really get a reaction. Do I just need to be more patient and hope things will improve? A couple of weeks ago I never thought we'd be kissing again so maybe there's hope yet.

Got to get ready for yoga class now so I'll be back later.

[Ageing Grace]

Thanks for the reply, Yoga - hope your class was good!

Yes, it sounds as though the gardening is a big project, especially now it's Spring I should think - so good on you for helping! If all goes well, you'll be able to kick back in a couple of months' time & reduce your gardening to some light dead-heading and refilling the glasses on the patio table :D

As you say, your relationship does seem to be improving - in fits & starts, maybe, but what's wrong with that? I'm glad you told him you fancy him! Perhaps it wouldn't be the greatest idea to jump him just yet ... Have the sarky comments mellowed at all, do you think?

AG :)

[JWD]

jump him lol you're funny

[RayCub]

I'd love to "jump" someone now...well, I'm not sure who, but someone...Am I the only one on here missing sex?? I mean, like REALLY missing it?!?!?!

[JWD]

No, I'm really really missing it. It's not uncommon apparently to start feeling more sexual when this happens. And for the walk away which was true in my case :mad:

[JWD]

I used to think I couldn't sleep with anyone without loving them now I just want sex.

[Ageing Grace]

Heh! I came over all hormonal last month (quite a shock at my age) and ended up writing on Facebook about how I might have to shag a sheep - it's the best chance I've got around here :eek:

PS: You DO get used to it (umm, like nuns apparently). But there is no reason on this earth why either of you should have to get used to it, if you don't want to! Always supposing your social environment isn't limited to sheep ...

[JWD]

LOL maybe we'll get a couple of pity shags haha. It's just another expense though, waxing bikini line LOL

[Ageing Grace]

waxing bikini line LOL Ahh, there you've hit the major benefit of a sexless existence :D

[JWD]

I had it done once years ago, think I went into shock.

Also hate letting legs grown til it's long enough to wax. It will just be my luck that the day before waxing I'll have the opportunity lol.

[yogamad]

Have to admit that over the winter I've not bothered so much with shaving legs because there was nobody to see them. This last week I've gone back to doing them regularly just in case anything happens with H and me. I don't want to get caught unawares and have to turn H down. I've exfoliated, scrubbed, pedicured, manicured, you name it I've done it just in case. Even though I've done all that I bet nothing will happen for ages but at least I'm prepared lol

[JWD]

That is exactly when something will happen lol. Maybe I should grow then and encourage something haha.

Men don't need to bother with all this, not fair.

I do my under arms in the shower in morning and legs in bath at night. I'm going to start giving myself pedicures too and putting on all my lovely smelly lotions. Just in case like. Mind you the only man visiting these days is the window cleaner and I'm avoiding him till I get paid

[JWD]

Why not go to bed naked and see if that stirs anything. Too warm for PJ's this weather anyway

[yogamad]

He used to love it if I was naked in bed. It's too early for anything to happen at the moment, when I say we're kissing, it's a kiss on the lips but it's not a long kiss or anything. Maybe when things have moved on a bit I'll surprise him naked in bed!

[JWD]

ah go for it. Maybe just strip of during the night like you were too warm and see what he does in the morning??

[Raymond]

You know yourself and you know him Yoga. I didn't mean to push just fishing. Thinking about it afterwards while you were rubbing his back you could touch his thighs briefly or maybe not?

I think also you should have done it when he was ready. It may have been awkward for you but it would get less and less the more it happened. He seems to get switched on by your clothing. Perhaps that's an avenue to go? You have to be subtle. Not in your face. Men like to notice when they notice but you can cleverly do your part and act as if you are not aware of it.

Raymond

[yogamad]

No, I don't even feel like touching his thighs, briefly or not. Because he's not showing any interest at all, makes me feel awkward. Only want to go there when he can at least give me a kiss when he gets home from work. I swing from one minute thinking positively and the next being down about it all. At the moment I feel down about everything but tomorrow I may feel differently. I've been touching his arm as we've been speaking but he can't even bring himself to do that. If he could do that, I would feel more positve.

[jkk]

Hi YM

is your H on any medication which could reduce his libido? Antidepressants, or bloodpressure pills? is he showing any signs or prostate trouble?

JKK

[yogamad]

No, he was on meds a couple of months ago but not been on anything since. He has said to me on a couple of occasions that he doesn't feel close to me at the moment and I think that is what it all boils down to.

[beno]

are you confident around him yoga?? form my experiance if your not its a big turn off... good luck and take care x

[yogamad]

I'm confident in the bedroom department and our sex life has always been fulfilling for both of us, it's the one area where we have never fallen out.

In life generally, no I'm not a very confident person except at work in the job I do. I'm quiet and shy and always have been. The more people tell me how beautiful I am and how do I manage to have such an amazing body, the less confident I become. For instance people at work were discussing what they were good at, I walked in and someone asked what I was good at and someone else replied "oh Yoga's good at being beautiful". Or I'll be working away in my office and when I look up someone is just staring at me and they'll say "God you're beautiful" which makes me so uncomfortable and even more quiet. People, men and women, seem to only talk about that, I have no idea why they are so interested in what I look like. Or on a night out friends will take one look at me and say "right, we're not going to sit next to Yoga, we'll sit down this end of the table, in which case the men will then all want to sit with me but I know it's not because of my conversation, just because of what I look like.

Also H has shouted at me for so many years now, that I feel I can't do anything right, and I've lost confidence that way too. He hates the fact that people stare at me when we go out and wishes I could put men in their place if they say something but I find it very difficult. People reading this will probably think how bigheaded I am but I'm not at all, I'm just trying to be honest and tell it how it is. Women don't seem to like me much because they prefer to be with friends who look the same. Luckily my twin obviosly looks exactly the same as me so she gets the same attitude towards her and understands how I feel. One thing I know I'm good at is being a good mum and no one can take that away from me.

[Raymond]

I think you are doing well Yoga and know where you are going. You know the things that won't work even if we have suggested them. The things I have mentioned would turn me on but that's by the way. It is amazing how he is letting you hug him and not responding. The positive is he is not rejecting this affection although he is not responding yet.

From my point of view the sex would help to bring the closeness. They are the times when I feel really close to my wife and the closeness fills over into everything we do. From your point of view as a woman the closeness has to come in the relationship first then spill over into the bedroom. Men and woman are different in this but can actually learn to cross over in practice. It seems to me your husband is functioning as the woman normally does in that the closeness has to be in the relationship first before the bedroom. This is commendable in a way but one doesn't want it to be a stalemate.

I am encouraged by the fact that he wanted sex when you were dressed attractively. Don't forget that. Next time let it happen regardless. The fact that he has been on medication will have affected things. Although it has stopped it will still take time to feel normal I think.

What I am saying really is to be patient and enjoy the present as a gift from God. Keep doing what you are doing and don't try too hard or be anxious in the sense of getting too keyed up about it. You are doing two good things. Resisting the control and trying to show affection whether there is return or not. That cannot be bad.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks Raymond, your words mean so much. I don't feel in a positve mood today but I will still keep trying. H suggested going out for a drink together tonight and I said I would love to go so that's positive.

I'll report back later.

[yogamad]

I've had a brilliant weekend, H and I went out shopping together yesterday and had a great time, we really got on so well together. We went out in the evening for a few drinks and had a meal, it was lovely. I feel a bit embarrassed feeling so sorry for myself yesterday. I asked H if there was any chance we could make love when we went home and he said he was over the other side of the bed and wasn't going anywhere which I took to be a good sign. When we got home however and I mentioned it he looked really uncomfortable and said it was too soon. I was really disappointed but we've managed to have another good day today, went out with the boys. We've progressed from hand holding to putting our arms round each other so we're getting there slowly.

[Raymond]

That's good Yogamad. I think the other will come eventually from what you are saying. Slowly does the trick here it seems but it is great that you had a good evening.

Raymond

[yogamad]

I spoke too soon, Raymond. As soon as I start to feel positive, something always happens to bring me back down.

H had run in with neighbour again about the front garden and she wasn't very nice and called him pathetic. He came in to tell me but he didn't seem upset or anything and I was just like oh what's she saying now. Later on H said that I'm going to have to have a word with her and that I should have come out and helped him because he can't deal with it. I said I didn't realise he was so upset. I literally just turned away and went back indoors and we didn't speak for over an hour. I thought about it and I honestly didn't realise he was that upset but he said I should of realised but I'm not a mind reader or am I just an uncaring person? I don't know but he made me feel really bad but I think I made him feel bad. The way he said "you should have come out" made me feel like he was telling me off, rather than something something like "I would have liked it if you came out to help".

It made me glad that nothing happened last night because I would've hated it today because we'd argued. We're ok'ish again now, H gone up to bed without saying goodnight as usual.

[Raymond]

He's obviously making a mess of the neighbour relationship if she is calling him pathetic. He wanted you there too late I think. As you say you cannot read his mind. You need to keep a good relationship with neighbours if possible and don't let it get out of hand. Perhaps you are able to smooth this over? They and you could be there for years. You don't want a constant hassle from next door.

He was upset about the run in with her making him react wrongly to you maybe. Let it pass. He is not being perfect but who is. Go on as you are. You are getting good times and things were melting and still can even more. Watch this neighbour thing so that it doesn't become like living next to enemies.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks Raymond. Neighbour wants a further 6 inches of our front garden which is unfuriating for H and myself but whereas I try to ignore her, she rubs H up the wrong way and he says stupid things to wind her up. Maybe if I see her, I can ask if all this can be sorted out.

I said earlier that H is transforming front and back gardens so at the moment they both look a mess which I hate. There was nothing wrong with them before but because H likes spending time out there, he decided to give it an overhaul. Trouble is, now I'm on 2 weeks holiday he says I can go out and do some work but I wouldn't even know where to start, it's such a mess. I will try to tidy it up a bit but there's rubble, mud everywhere. And he doesn't ask nicely, he comes across as ordering me into the garden which I resent.

I've got a lot to do today to keep busy. As we had a busy weekend, I've got loads of housework to get through, food shopping, etc. Feel a bit down in the dumps but hopefully will feel better as the day goes on.

No, H is not perfect but sometimes I feel he expects me to be. I will go on though because things are getting better .... slowly!

[Raymond]

Another bit of control going on here I think Yogamad. Why do you have to work in the garden on holiday? I would lovingly refuse or just do what you feel like doing in it. Another case of standing up to him I feel. This control creeps in without you noticing it. In this case he chose to create work in the garden because he likes it. It is not a need for the family just his hobby. Keep the cuddles and love going but don't work unwillingly in the garden if you feel you are being forced to do it. You have enough to do in the house it seems.

Try and sort the border problems amicably if you can. Do you have the deeds handy to check the borders? If not you can get a copy from the Land Registry or from the deeds themselves whoevever is holding them. I used to work in a bank and we were always getting requests for the map which shows the boundaries, so it is routine. Maybe a letter to the bank of bldg. soc. is in order?

Raymond

[yogamad]

I'm feeling a bit better, bought food, started the housework, had a long chat with sister on the phone and feeling a bit happier.

I hadn't thought about it being more control, I even thought maybe I should do some work on the garden because it's such a mess. The thing is it looked great before he ripped out all the plants, there was nothing wrong with them, now they're dumped in a heap at the bottom of the garden and we have to buy new ones to replace them. But I keep telling myself as long as he's happy and it's relieving his stress, I'll let him get on with it.

I know he resents the work I do. I work term time so I get a lot of holiday each year. Even though boys are older now and I don't need to work term time, I've got no intention of giving it up. I earn quite good money, I love my job and I admit I love the holidays, who wouldn't?

Why can't he be happy for me that I'm happy with my job. I work 28 hours per week, H works 32 hours per week, so we're both part time. We own our own house, we don't have any money worries, we agreed we could both go part time but he resents the fact that he still works longer hours than me. He gets every Tuesday off and he does exactly what he wants, I don't ask/tell him to do anything, he can go off on his motorbike, spend time in the garden, anything. I have mornings off and do the housework but I don't mind this as I like to have my weekends free and can't live in an untidy house whereas H isn't bothered. What he would like is for me to work full time so that he can either give up his job completely or just work 2 days a week which I think is unfair. I had 8 years off when our boys were growing up but I worked hard to bring them up and also helped a couple of hours each day with H's business. He now says it's his turn to stay at home and he'd love to be a house husband. He does seem a bit happier in his job at the moment so that's good. I've come to the conclusion that he's quite a hard man to please.

[Raymond]

My wife never worked again once she had the children. She now works in a school in the lunch hour during term term but she doesn't have to.

He should be happy because you are happy. This is not jealousy, wanting what belongs to him. It is envy and self pity. Wanting what doesn't belong to him. Hang on to what you have Yogamad. It's not right what he is doing. Wanting you to work more so that he can take it easy. That's more control I feel. There might be a place for that if someone was an invalid or sick but I don't see that here. Generally the husband should support the wife. I know there are exceptions where the woman chooses to work but I don't think she should be forced to if things are okay financially.

Thats my opinion. Funny he wants to take it easy and yet is creating work in the garden. Sounds to me that he doesn't like his job and needs to look for one he likes more even if it was slightly less money. Working two days a week is like retiring before your time. Don't go there Yogamad.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Thanks, Raymond. Well, we have been there. H sold his business about 8 yrs ago and we moved back to home town and bought a house outright that needed gutting throughout. Both children were at school so I agreed to work full time so that H could do the house up and also see more of the children (because of his long hours he didn't see that much of them beforehand). The house took approx 2 years to renovate and by then I had the seen the job I've got now advertised, went for it, got it and I've never looked back. I work in a school office and I love it.

Obviously it was less money because it was part time so H felt he had no option but to go back full time and he resented the fact that he had to do that, he was more than happy being at home. He did that for a few years but left because he wasn't happy. He then had a few months off, got another job, was made redundant, had more time off, got another job, wasn't happy and left, the pattern goes on until last year walked out of a job after only a week because of his breakdown. He had approx 8 months off then got the job he has now. He did try something completely different but the money he earns in his job is good and so he decided to stick to that

My H has never had a problem with the woman being the breadwinner and says he wishes he'd married a career woman who earnt lots of money. Well, he knew I wasn't like that when he met me. The thing is when I had my 8 yrs off, I took motherhood very seriously and it was hard work. I've told H that if he had time off now, it's not the same because the boys are teenagers, his time would be his own, I never had any time to myself. He doesn't need time off, I did it so the boys had a good start in life. Because he basically bought our house with his money he feels he's done his bit and now it's up to me to provide. We haven't argued about this for a couple of months but it gets brought up every now and again. I think if you are happy in your job, you're lucky and mine fits in well with the family too. I was also lucky enough to work in the same school my boys were at before they went on the secondary so I saw them out of my office window playing, it was lovely.

His family, my family have all said that he needs to work, not just because of the money, but because staying at home all day, not seeing anyone is not healthy for someone who is only 41. I've told him this but he says he loves pottering about at home.

Also, although he's suffered from depression and anxiety for a over a year, I've suffered with mild depression for as long as I can remember. I deal with it every day by eating healthily and taking regular exercise, getting enough sleep, basically looking after myself. That's why I can get down very quickly after a disagreement like yesterday and it takes me a few days to build myself back up again.

H think my family are freaks because depression runs in my family. My dad's greatgrandmother had it, his grandmother, his mother committed suicide in her 50s after being depressed most of her life, my dad has mild depression, as do me and my sister. My dad's sister is the only one who's ok but one of her daughters has mild depression, her other daughter is a manic depressive who is also anorexia and who has never worked and is a recluse (she's only in her 20s) it's very sad, her skin is translucent). My dad's cousins, aunties, all have depression in some form or another, it mostly affects the women and it's one reason I'm glad I had boys. It's another thing that gets brought up now and again and I feel I have to stand up for my family because he runs them down. My dad's dad was a gypsy and ran away from the gypsies as a boy. He is dead now but looked like a gypsy, so does my dad. H's sister and her H have recently been made a lord and lady so you can see what he thinks of my family.

Sorry, it's been a long post.

[Raymond]

I think he is being a teeny bit lazy. We'd all like to potter about all day long but deep down we know it's not healthy for a man. Besides theres a living to make.

I'm off to work in fifteen minutes so I'll be brief. My kids have had a really good upbringing because they had a mum who was there for them. It really shows as well. My background was orphanages so I am proud they have turned out how they have.

I thought your husband was adopted. Is he now related to Lords and Ladies? It's irrelevant really. All people have value whatever the background.

Looks like there was something running down your family line. Is it from the Gypsy. All that occult etc. My wifes grandfather was a gypsy and there were things that were passed down. She had to have prayer to get rid of the stuff and be released from various things, but her personality always shined through. She is great now. At times she seemed to have a death spirit coming on her and even her skin went pallid but that was thrown out by the elders in the church. As christians one doesn't have to put up with all that stuff.

Raymond

[yogamad]

Hi Raymond, I agree with a lot of what you've said.

H is adopted but his adoptive family have all done really well for themselves. Not that it really matters but his brother in law is as high up as you can go in the medical field and is head hunted all over the country and they've just been made a lord and lady, that's what I've been told anyway.

It's my grandmother's side of the family that has depression and my grandad was the gypsy so I don't know if anything has been passed down through the generations or not.

I'm still feeling a bit down today but not too bad, planned lots to do which is the key for me. H and I had a good night, chatted all evening and it was very pleasant and relaxed.

Thanks again for all your support, Raymond.

[yogamad]

Oh my god, just had the police round to have a chat about what happened with neighbour on Sunday. Said if H continued with abusive behaviour then they would arrest him. Police suggested we go to mediation so I said I would but that H probably wouldn't as he finds situations like that hard to cope with. Basically, I don't want to make his anxiety/depression worse again. H has to ring police when he gets home from work. This is all I need!

[Ageing Grace]

This is all I need!

Actually, Yoga, I suspect it IS what you need!

I've been reading your thread but decided to leave replies to Raymond & others as I find your story so exasperating!!!

You and H seem to be locked in a macabre psychological dance, where you feed off each other's worse points. I really respect the changes you've been making for yourself, and I loved what you wrote about your job.

But (I feel) something needs to happen, to pull you both up short. He has to understand he can't get away with his whining & domineering behaviour - at least, he shouldn't be able to, but you let him.
You do, Yoga, you feed it.

Your neighbour sounds like a pain in the neck to be honest: I wish your husband had married her, they look like two of a kind from here!!

Raymond's advice about the boundary was obvious and sensible: it hadn't crossed my mind that two competent adults would NOT have checked their deeds and negotiated a sale price for the extra strip of land. What on earth are you thinking about?

Unless your husband actually beat this person up, I imagine the police will consider it just a pair of stupid people wasting their valuable time - and do nothing. Even so, I hope it's given your husband pause for thought.

It should certainly give you a kick up that perfect backside of yours - I truly hope it has.

Love and POWER!
AG x
ps: I'm a quarter Gypsy, too. It hasn't resulted in possession by demons as far as I'm aware and I find your comments insulting, Raymond. Intense prejudice is what gave our grandparents such insufferably hard lives. I thought that was all over now.

[yogamad]

Hi AG

I can't remember when I wrote 'this is all I need'. I'll have to check back through my thread.

I can imagine you and lots of people find my relationship exasperating, so thanks a lot for posting, it really means a lot to me.

You're right I do let H domineer me but as he's been doing this for 20 years, it's hard for me to suddenly start standing up to him but believe me I am trying, I mean really trying for the first time ever because I know things have got to change.

Regarding our neighbour, we have been to look at our deeds but unless we were prepared to take it to court which involved cost, there wasn't anything we could do. I can think of loads of things I'd rather spend my money on than 1 foot of grass so we didn't pursue it. Also, she wouldn't even talk about buying this land from us, so we have tried different options.

H and I have fallen out this evening but I stood up for myself and don't feel like I've done anything wrong. If I've learnt anything at all about myself since I started posting it's that it's not the end of the world if we fall out, we don't have the long silences that we used to. I've learnt to talk about the problem, then move on, I can do that now whereas I couldn't before.

As you know, I don't have a lot of self esteem but I know I'm a lovely, kind, sensitive person who looks out for others but who is having problems in her marriage. I'm doing every thing I can at the moment to try and make my marriage happier but I know it's going to take a long time. I'm also a strong person (in a quiet way) who is making a good life for my boys and not giving up on my marriage.

Thanks again, AG for posting.

[Ageing Grace]

I stood up for myself and don't feel like I've done anything wrong. If I've learnt anything at all about myself since I started posting it's that it's not the end of the world if we fall out, we don't have the long silences that we used to. I've learnt to talk about the problem, then move on, I can do that now whereas I couldn't before.
....
I'm also a strong person (in a quiet way)

Yes, you are :)

And thanks for explaining about the neighbour - I must say I'm relieved to hear you've considered the options & chosen the more rational one!

AG x

[Raymond]

Yogamad you are doing very well and have been doing very well in resisting the control. This has to continue of course. As I said before it can be done in a kind confident way. It doesn't help him either if it's allowed to carry on. His treating of the neighbour exasperates him because he cannot control her I suspect. Better you handle it I think.

For the record AG I have nothing against Gypsies. In a sense I am married to a part gypsy on her mothers parent side at least. Nevertheless things can come down the line and do, not only with gypsies it can be anyone. In this case it was traced to certain occult practices of gypsies which affected my wife although she did not do anything wrong herself. I know some outstanding gypsies so I am certainly not prejudiced. To me it was just a fact to be dealt with full stop.

Raymond

[JWD]

Bought two of them. Maybe they'll come in handy next time round :-)

[JWD]

I think you have a lovely nature yoga and the patience of a saint. You build up your confidence for you. You're far smarter than you give yourself credit for. xx

[yogamad]

Thanks everyone for your support.

Thanks JWD for your post, it means a lot to me. I have worried about how I'm coming across to people on here, that's probably down to my low self image of myself.

I've had a good day, started off feeling abit low but my day got better, I gave myself a good talking to and had a long chat with my sister. H is in a good mood, not back to work until next Wed so hoping we all have a good Easter. I was feeling rather negative towards H but he was cheerful when he came home so I gave him a kiss and we've been very chatty with each other all evening.

Hope everyone else had a good day :0)

[Raymond]

Well done Yogamad. At least you've had the sun. Looks like drizzle now. Oh well.

Raymond

[yogamad]

I'm not having a good weekend, actually feel like I hate my husband at the moment. I think I've come to the conclusion that my marriage will probably always be like this because of the way my H is. The way I see it, I've got two options:

1 Leave
2 Stay and put up with it

As I've got my children to think about, then there's no choice for me but to stay and try and make the best of it which is what I've been doing. I know I've been through this before and I'm sorry if I'm just repeating myself (you're probably exasperated again, AG)!

He's had another go at me because of our neighbour, saying I'm not supporting him enough. I've just been next door to see her and we've agreed she's not to say anything more about the garden and H is not to either because we're all so unhappy with the situation. She said I was very brave going round but I came home and burst into tears because I'm so unhappy. H didn't thank me for going to see her, just had another go at me because he says her dog is messing in our garden, she says it's probably a cat which I'm inclined to agree with. H says I'm siding with her but I think he's being incredible childish about this and I'm just trying to get on with everyone. I told neighbour that H has been ill and she said she didn't know and that it was me who looked thin and pale.

I know nobody can help with this but I just need someone to talk to.

[georgie]

Yogamad, you are in a really tough bind. My H drove me to ask him to leave, I then spent weeks asking him to come back. I sometimes think he is having some kind of breakdown, but finally realised that even if he is I can't fix him. I can't spend my life wishing he will wake up better one day. Maybe he's just a selfish gitt. Maybe he just wasn't happy and didn't know what else to do.. I may never know. I know I did a lot wrong, maybe I'm looking for answers when the reality is the relationship just wasnt working - if it's not working for one it's just not working full stop.
I guess given the benefit of hind sight and given how frightening I've found being alone at least until recently, that I would not have asked my H to leave. I'm not entirely sure that I would be any better off now though. Would my kids be better off if he was still living here? I don't know - it's possible they would have been feeling tension and hearing arguements.
I guess all you can do is try to assess what will work out better for you and the kids in the long run.
If you leave you can slowly build a life for yourself and your kids, within certain economic boundaries but still having to negotiate with him re: parenting.
If you stay you have to bet on whether he is going to change for the better or is he going to stay the same.
If he stays the same, it sounds like you will deteriorate from the strain of it all. What good are you to your kids if he drains the life out of you with his unpredictable behaviour?
It seems like he tried to improve by using meds - but is he prepared to take it further ie were they the right meds, would he ever do counselling on his own/with you addressing the issues that are causing so much strain?
Only you can find the answer. It seems like he's got a hell of a lot going on in his head and the garden has nothing to do with it, it's just a pin ***** allowing some of the anger/pain to leak out.

[Ageing Grace]

Lol at Georgie's word for a very tiny hole getting blanked out!

Yoga, your post was heartrending. It takes courage to evaluate your situation like this. You may have to think it over bit by bit; that's okay. I'm very happy you've got your sister to talk with.

Georgie summarised things very well, I feel, and all I can do is praise you for the steps you've taken - and are continuing to take - towards regaining your own sense of self and your own personality :)

You're having to be strong for everybody, aren't you? How frustrating.
From what you've been saying, it looks as though your husband is having quite dramatic mood swings - it must be draining for you and everyone around you. Stay steady, Yoga! Your well-being matters, you know.

Lots of love & good thoughts,
AG

[yogamad]

Thanks Georgie and AG.

I've spent the day at my sisters, I had to get away from this house and the whole situation. I've had a nice day, took her kids to the park and walked in the sunshine, I've only just got home.

I was dreading coming home but I haven't done anything wrong, I really feel that H owes me an apology but I doubt I'll get one. Going to have a long soak in the bath with a glass of wine.

Thanks for being there for me, I appreciate it so much :0)
x

[Ageing Grace]

I was dreading coming home but I haven't done anything wrong

God, I know that feeling so well! I remember getting off the Tube and doing all sorts of stuff to put off ... going back to my own home :( I kept finding myself singing songs like "Show me the way to go home". Sad doesn't come close.

Hope you had a lovely bath, and your glass was large ...

AG x

[yogamad]

Hi AG, it was a large one and I'm now on my second.:D

H and I haven't spoken to each other since I got back but right now I don't care, starting to feel a bit p****d. I feel run down, starting to get a cold sore, pounding headache and a nerve in my eye keeps twitching. House is a mess, breakfast dishes are still piled up in the sink, no one's eaten yet today, but apart from that everything's fine in the yoga household.

When I think what a lovely time H and I had last Saturday compared to this one. I really do feel that I've been supportive over the whole garden issue and H can't use his anxiety as an excuse to be rude to me.
I feel strong at the moment because I know I'm not in the wrong, I refuse to back down and say sorry this time and feel that the ball's in his court. There will be no hand holding or kissing coming from me, it's up to him this time. And if he doesn't apologise to me and try to make amends then that's up to him. I know I tried with this marriage. If he wants to be a complete and utter a****** then he can carry on.:mad:

[yogamad]

I've had a strange day. Started off by H telling me that we needed a chat, that our relationship had hit rock bottom, that he was going to ring Relate so we could start counselling again. He said he feels that way after my disgraceful behaviour yesterday. Uh, come again, MY disgraceful behaviour? :confused: He said I should have stayed so we could've talked about it which I admit I should've but I had to leave for all our sakes.

We then went on to have a nice family day out by the beach and all came home in a good mood. H and I made no attempt to hold hands but we were polite with each other and had a pleasant day.:confused:

So now, he's in bed and I'm downstairs, alone as usual, and I'm wandering what tomorrow's going to bring. I have no idea what sort of mood he's going to be in, all I know is that I can't wait for him to go back to work.:mad:

[JWD]

Don't let his mood dictate what type of day you will have. Hope I'm not speaking out of turn but he really does sound like a big baby. It is good that he wants to go back to relate though.

Hope you have a good day today Yoga.

[RayCub]

How are things today, Yoga?

I'm in awe of you, to be honest. I'm not sure I would have the stamina to put up with that kind of behaviour from my H, even for the sake of the kids. I only went through a couple of weeks of selfish, hellish, "it's all about ME" behaviour from my H, and I had to tell him to go. I couldn't keep walking around the house with my shoulders hunched over, walking on eggshells, feeling like half a person: it was draining me.

And I couldn't let my kids see me like that either. I guess I feel like, because we have two girls, I have to be an example to them of how women can stand up for themselves - not that you aren't doing that. There are so many ways to do that, fighting for your marriage being one of them, but it just wasn't for me, not when I knew my H wasn't willing fto fight for one second. Like I said, I'm just not strong enough, I guess, so I threw in the towell first. I knew my H was going to anyway, so I guess I thought I should do it first, like that would protect my heart a little more.

I sure hope things work out for you the way they're supposed to. I never thought I could stand alone without him and raise our kids, but he's been gone a month yesterday, and you know what? I'm doing it. I have good days, and I have down-in-the-gutter-in-the-fetal-position days, but I'm getting through ALL of them. Just got through our first Easter alone, which I see as a major hurdle. All the "firsts" are going to be hard.

I know you wnat to put your kids first, Yoga. I do too. We're Moms: we're conditioned to put our kids - and everything else in our lives - ahead of us. But if we don't put ourselves first, we have nothing left to give to those around us. We need to keep putting an investment in the account called "Me", or else that account goes bankrupt, and then no one wins. The more you invest in yourself, the more you have to give to your kids. They'll have a happier, healthier, wiser, stronger mother. That's what I really want for my kids and myself. I thik it's time for you to think about what YOU really want now.

GOOD LUCK!!!

Ray
xo

[yogamad]

Hi JW, I am trying not to let H's mood dictate what kind of day I have but God, it's hard. You're not speaking out of turn, you're right, H is a big baby, he's incredibly childish and selfish at times and extremely hard work to live with. I have got stronger since I started writing on this forum and reading other people's posts and I'm slowly starting to stand up for myself more.

Hi Ray, I think because it's been this way for so long, I just go along with each day and see what happens. I have tried to leave about 3 or 4 times over the years but I feel so guilty about leaving the boys that I always go back and they're crying and it's awful. There's no way H would ever leave, he's told me that loads of times and has said he would make it hard for me to see thev kids. I know he can't legally do that but I know he'd make life as difficult for me as possible. Sometimes I wish he would leave. Because you, Georgie and JW's husbands have been lovely, that's why you're all heartbroken now. If H left me, I wouldn't be like that at all, I'd probably get the balloons out and have a party. I would be upset of course because we do have a lot of good memories, holidays, etc too. I can remember my oldest son (who never cries) with tears rolling down his cheeks last year because I told him I couldn't take any more and it broke my heart. I just can't do it again. I keep thinking if things are still this way when my youngest son leaves for university then I'll go. Apart from the couple of times I've discussed how I feel with them, they really have no idea because I'm so used to covering up how I feel and then having a good cry in the shower when they're in bed. I know that's know way for a marriage to be but when that's all you've ever known you just get used to it.

My boys are my life (in a healthy way I mean) and I can't bring myself to do anything that would cause pain to them but I my H were to leave then I wouldn't be the one that left. As he's not going anywhere, I'm trying to be as strong as I can. I can't believe what confident, intelligent, polite, funny boys we've brought up when I think what their parents are like but we must be doing something right in that direction.

Today we went to a car boot sale and had a good time. H had a bit of a go on the journey there by saying that he doesn't understand why I'm on the side of my neighbour and not him and I tried to explain but we ended up arguing and said we'd speak about it later. Haven't spoke about it yet though so I've got that to look forward to I guess.

You will all go on to have lovely new lives and I'll still be on here in 10 years time going on about same old problems lol

[JWD]

You won't be here in ten years because you are getting more and more fed-up with your situation. Also remember that I only thought my H was lovely, I'm waking from my coma though.

Your kids are as you describle because of your wonderfully ability to look on the bright side when things are tough for you. You must be incredibly strong because if it were my H, I would be an emotional wreck with all that emotional abuse. Anyway, I'm in no position to offer advice so feel free to ignore but I think he is more annoyed at himself for gettting so angry with the neighbour and because you are not getting your knickers in a knot over it, it makes him even angrier because he wants aomeone to confirm he has a right to be annoyed. My head would be mushed.

I think you are so strong. But yourself the secret by Rhonda Bryne. It's great.