Computer addiction and the silent treatment

[Brotan]

I have been separated from my husband for six months now. I separated from him when he walked out of our home to stay with his family for a while after we had a big fight and I asked him to leave. It was the fourth time in less than a year that this had happened. He had also resigned his job two months earlier and was meant to be caring for our daughter at home so I was left to put her into a creche the next day after he left so that I could continue working.

The things I am responsible for in the breakdown of our marriage is that I used to shout at him a lot. I broke a window by mistake in anger when I got locked out of the house one day and could not get my husbands attention to let me in - when he did let me in he locked himself in the upstairs room with my gate keys and I broke down the door to get to them after asking him three times to open it as I needed to get out and take my daughter out with me. I do get easily frustrated and need to work on this.

Six months on our house is rented out and my husband is still without a job. When I left I told him I would not return to him til he had a job and we were in counselling. The other thing that I feel is destroying our marriage is that he is addicted to a computer game. Every time I have yelled at him he has been playing that computer game. He does not eat supper with me, but eats it in front of the computer. When he came home from work when he was working, he would go straight upstairs and play the game sometimes til 03:00am only to get up for work again at 07:00. He would tell me he couldn't do something because he had to "help" people on the computer game (a multi-networking game). We never talked about anything except the game and in fact he would give me the silent treatment for days on end easily by putting on his headphones and shutting me out. He denies that he is addicted to it. I have told him I will not return unless he quits that game entirely and I intend to stick to that, however how long should a separation last before I am sure that things will not change?

My husband wants money from me for the house morgage. I have refused to pay him anything. By law I would have to pay if the marriage is annulled as I own half the house - is it wrong not to pay him now - I have suggested selling the house so that we do not have a morgage, but he does not want to even though a financial advisor told him to. Should a woman pay a man when they are separated if he resigned (his choice) his job - he is not paying any maintenance for my daughter at the moment? What about the mans responsibility to support his family financially? How realistic is it to think like this these days?

Just interested in other people's views on these issues.

[Hilary]

Quick message re the money as I've been on the site too long this morning already.

Add up the cost of the mortgage and then subtract the cost of maintenance you would be entitled to - though not sure how that is organised in your country.

Sorry about all your problems - any addiction is a BIG problem to have to deal with.

[Ageing Grace]

Hello, Brotan.

You asked a whole bunch of questions and I don't think I can answer them all. Your husband is addicted to his game. As he refuses to see that, you haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of getting him to return to the real world.

I sometimes spend too long in my chosen VR world - as you know all too well (but others may need to hear), it can rapidly become more 'real' than the real one. Since I make game scenery, I can easily tell when my perceptions have become warped - I start seeing real trees and bushes as a series of planes, as if they were the ones I make in-game :confused: If I weren't well-informed about addictions, it's possible I wouldn't recognise that for the danger sign it is.

Your story regarding your tantrums makes it easy to envisage how, for your husband, the game may have seemed a preferable world to the world surrounding him. It looks likely that he's checked out of this one for the duration. Did he choose the house-husband role as an excuse to spend more time in game? I suspect he'd be a terrible child-minder, even if that were still an option.

With all addictions, the sufferer won't seek a way out until it causes such horrible consequences that they can't ignore the facts. For this reason, I'm not even going to try to encourage you to seek a resolution to your marriage problems. It could be enlightening for you to read Wounded's lovely thread (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=5616) in here. He kicked his game habit after his wife left.

Regarding the practicalities of getting yourself and your daughter out of an impasse, you really should see a divorce lawyer. Many will give you a free initial consultation; all will provide an hour of informed advice for about £80 ($120) - I'm in the UK. There are plenty of websites that provide advice, however laws change very quickly in this area which is why I think it's more helpful to see a specialist.

Please also buy one of the many good self-help books on coping with divorce. We all feel bad about the process of ending a marriage, and emotions very easily creep into practical thoughts. For example, whether a man "should" take financial responsibility is an issue to be debated amongst friends - it has no place amongst the defined facts you must now deal with.

The book will also help you take a step back from the confusion that inevitably surrounds a marriage break-up. You've taken a big personal step forwards, in recognising your own contributions to how things went wrong. Choose a book that has a few good chapters on self-blame, so you can acknowledge your failings ... then put that thought aside, for action at a more appropriate time.

I'm sorry I haven't given you any good news, Brotan. Have a read of Wounded's thread. Here's a quote from Dr Neil Brener of The Priory (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/features/the-priorys-dr-neil-brener-im-not-running-a-hotel-768233.html) (in England):When people ask me whether there is such a thing as an "addictive personality" I have to say that in my experience there certainly appears to be a dependent personality type, although scientifically this has not yet been fully shown. The abiding characteristic of an addict is emotional avoidance. People who cannot cope with their feelings might use a substance to feel instantly better, but this will only give temporary relief.

Good luck. Keep posting, it helps.
AG

[1aokgal]

Brotan...

Your husband went into an alternate world ....that is the sign of an escape, but also from you. I'd say you have some serious personality problems that need addressing on your own. Tantrums, bullying and destruction when you don't get your own way makes you sound like a less than attractive partner even to a guy that can cope. He can't cope and that is why he left.

Do yourself a favor and get into some therapy to explore why you chose somebody you felt you could push around. Why do you need to throw destructive tantrums? Your home life when you were a child must have been an angry nest of conflicts and problems.

Now, you seem to have dependency needs to get back with him which will not be met with a guy who plays games insted of working. See an attorney and get the money issues out on the table and find out who has responsibility for what. Don't look for a relationship. You are so far from stable it isn't funny. Work on your goals and seek answers to all that anger. You can't bully a man and find respect and love returned to you.

You get what you give. If you are impatient and yell and scream and break things, than that person will distance from you. I can see he might wear ear plugs and go behind closed doors. Who wants to live with a powder keg? If you really want to have the next part of your life messed up than continue on the same path. My suggestion is to find some program of faith where you can bring out a real woman who works as a partner with a man and not a spoiled fighting child. You two attracted each other and when together brought
out the worst in each other.

[BettyG]

Wow I really must agree with 1aokgal - some very insightful comments.

I read brotan's post and tried to see it from the others person's point of view. I couldn't help but think if roles we reversed and he was smashing windows, breaking down doors and shouting we'd all be telling the wife to run for the hills and to immediately get away from the 'abusive' husband. Why is it so different when the genders are reversed.

Brotan I'm sorry honey but I really think 1aokgal hit it on the money here, you need to consider looking at yourself for his withdrawl. Take her advise and get yourself some therapy it can only help you. The human reaction here is to make excuses and explain it away.

It makes me sad that there is a child involved in this. I'm a firm believer in marriage is forever. All I can suggest is get some therapy work on the issues and it does sounds like he has his own set of issues he needs to deal with.

I hope it works out, its not going to easy, God bless.

[Brotan]

Thanks for the comments - I did place my actions in that post on purpose in order to try to give a more balanced view as I believe I am hardly to blame for some of the problems

Nonetheless these problems started long before I began shouting at him - he was withdrawing less than 3 months into the marriage - he was promoted at work and did not tell me about it and I have seen since that the withdrawal plays out in all his relationships whenever someone does something he does not agree on.

I believe that both of us have issues to work on in therapy individually if we are going to continue this relationship (or any relationship with a significant other for that matter) I have been seeing someone and was before I got married too, but the stresses of the marriage have taken their toll. I do not behave like this to anyone else. We clearly have two different ways of handling anger and he is not helpful - he is passive-agressive and I am just plain old agressive. In the communication we have had since we left each other it is clear that both of us is furious with the other and my needs are not being met, but my complaint from the beginning has been that there is no way for us to communicate about our needs - if I bring it up then he always withdraws and refuses to acknowledge there is a problem and if he does agree to try to talk about it and then withdraws a bit later I tend to get very angry.

Don't worry I am definitely not looking for another relationship right now - I am still married to my husband.

The thing is I have worked on changing since I left him. When he phones we speak calmly and it has been many months since I lost my temper with anyone so I am better. That is why I can admit to these faults on here. It seems that we both want the marriage to continue and work out but are both afraid of going back into the same situation - especially for our daughters sake. If we have both worked on our issues and then go back how would we prevent the same thing from happening again - I am in control and am going to refuse to go back til he quits the computer game and at the moment he is still expecting me to see someone about the anger issues (I have asked him to see someone about his anger, but so far he seems to be denying it)

"you seem to have dependency needs to get back with him"

I do want to get back to him and am finding it hard to know what it is that makes me want to get back - I have been a lot happier and calmer and felt safer since leaving. I thought perhaps that it is religious views (I also believe that marriage should be forever) or perhaps just that I do not want our marriage to fail. Maybe it is just that I really did love this man and feel that the person I loved (and the same for him) must be there someone if we could only find those people again and mature. I wonder if I am just being idealistic?

I really do though want this to work and him to be fixed. I am willing to grow and learn from my own mistakes and really do believe that learning to control my temper even when incredibly lonely and frustrated is a great thing for everyone (me especially) but at the same time to be away from that frustration and incredible loneliness stops me wanting to react like that - so how do you solve it then?

[Ageing Grace]

Hello again, Brotan.

After I went to bed last night, I was thinking about 1aokgal's & Betty's replies to you.

In my last marriage, I threw horrendous tantrums at my husband. I couldn't understand what had come over me - although I come from a physically & verbally violent background, I was lucky enough to get good schooling which overrode any tendencies I might have had to continue the family tradition. I'd never behaved like that at any other time in my life.

I started therapy the week after the marriage ended. I saw that my husband did, indeed, bully me. His brand of viciousness was new to me, which is why I hadn't noticed it. He was emotionally withholding, excessively private, and subtly contemptuous. Not recognising the process that was happening between us, I felt its effects nevertheless ... and responded in the same manner that I'd used as a downtrodden child.

In last night's darkness, I wondered whether your temper outbursts had also been provoked by "hidden" maltreatment. I'm glad your new reply suggests that they were. Had you observed it yourself or is the discovery, only now, coming to you that the real cause of your anger was his remoteness?

Of course, a lifelong tendency to uncontrolled anger is something that must be addressed. One positive about your current situation is that it's triggering a bunch of changes that can only enhance your future life and inner peace ... whatever else happens.

In case you're interested, I've modified all of my anger - and fear - responses. The effects are impressive! But I am still pleased to know I'm capable of wildly incandescent anger ... in the right place ;)

I disagree with you that your marriage should be fixed - or even that it can be. To an onlooker (or, at least, to the three of us so far) your marriage is a classic case of "needs matching" ... in a negative way.

Since that isn't what you want to hear, I will just urge you to do some reading on addictions and to observe your husband's behaviour regarding his game. In the light of your post in the other thread, I suggest you also look at sex addiction websites - with particular attention to what they call "sexual anorexia".

The man is an addict. You cannot change his behaviour; only he can. He's an addict - he will not begin to consider changing his behaviour until he has lost all control in other areas of life. Currently, he still has control of you. Remove it.

Personally, I feel you "love" him because he's manipulated you successfully.
This isn't to say you don't need therapy - insane temper tantrums are insane: they indicate a lack of self-understanding; you must address your issue.

Please post back. I'm interested in your response.

Best wishes,
AG

[Ageing Grace]

I have been a lot happier and calmer and felt safer since leaving.

Sometimes you know things you just don't want to know ....

[Brotan]

Its hard to say whether the behaviour was provoked by hidden maltreatment. The thing is that I see our behaviours as two separate choices - I chose to shout at him no matter how out of control I felt at the time. He chose to withdraw from me no matter how much I shouted at him. Neither one of us is to blame for the others choices.

That being said though, I imagine that the way we treated each other was enough to cause us to use our defense mechanisms (and mine was to shout further while his was to withdraw further) It was a vicious cycle leading to two unhappy people.

Nonetheless when confronted with me leaving more permanently (he would leave for about a week at a time in the occassions he did leave) he told me that 95% of the time things were fine in our marriage. I worked out recently that in the last eight months we lived together at least 3 of these months was spent in silence (absolute silence as he would not talk to me at all even to answer a simple question or say hello when he walked in - these periods lasted from 3-7 days at a time usually) If he was using the silent treatment to punish me for shouting at him then how can he say that 95% of the time things were ok? It does not make sense to me.

Again though that does not excuse my shouting at him. I do get frustrated fairly easily and am having to work hard to control my reaction to that frustration. But within our marriage I think I was getting frustrated at things that would frustrate anyone. My husband was getting frustrated at things that normal people would get frustrated at and he dealt with it by withdrawing.

So why then do I want this marriage to continue? Or more importantly can it continue? Despite what a large number of people say, I think it can and that it could even be fairly healthy if we both compromised and learnt to communicate. Basically it would take a miracle, but then I've known miracles happen. At the same time I don't want to waste the rest of my life waiting for a miracle that may not happen. For now though I am still dealing with sorting myself out (emotionally, financially etc) and have no plans to end the marriage right now. If my husband were to try to end it though I would go along with it. I have given myself til the end of this year to sort things out and come to a decision so that decision is not taken lightly.

[Ageing Grace]

Interesting response, Brotan.

Evidently your temper is something of an issue and, as you say, needs to be managed. I'm a big fan of getting at the deeper issues (so the symptom no longer exists) but not everyone has to do that. Simplistic as it sounds, taking a slow breath & counting to ten really does work!

You need to be careful of inflicting too much blame on yourself here. If I read you rightly, you only yell when you're with your husband and he's in silent mode. Yelling may be wrong, but it's kind of understandable if your preferred mode of communication is verbal. His clearly isn't.

There's a nice page somewhere in this website called "the Five Languages of Love". It's a simplification of NLP theory. Probably it will be a good idea for you to work out exactly what your husband's preferred communication style comprises, and use it when you want to open discussions on a fresh start between you. You'll need to get quite proficient, because he will have to learn how to meet with you in the middle - ie, be more verbally expressive. He won't even hear your request properly unless it's delivered in his language.

Your post suggests you think the online game isn't a problem. I hope you're right. Have you thought about signing up to it? You said you never talked about anything except the game; might as well know what you're talking about, in that case ...

Very uncommunicative people frequently have a degree of Asperger's sydrome. It is so common for Asperger's people to shelter inside games, there are specialised support groups inside most of the major MMOGs. Personally I couldn't live with an Asperger's sufferer but many can. One thing's for sure - they can't handle big emotional displays. Have you ever considered whether he may be somewhere on that scale?

You have a heck of a lot to work out, Brotan, and I'm glad you've got almost a year to get started :) Please do your therapy; get strong and secure. Good luck.

AG

[Brotan]

Will look at the site about the five love languages - I have read a book on that and feel my husbands love language is gifts, but I am not entirely certain.

I know the online game IS a problem - and a big one. I played it with him for two years and it definitely has some addictive qualities. It was about the most time we actually spent together when we were playing it, but it became an issue as he would come home and go straight to the computer for most of the night, when we went out he had to rush back and got very angry if we couldn't be back in time for a certain event that people had planned on the game (he showed his anger by driving a lot faster and just general nonverbal irritability) until we didn't really go out anymore. Also most of the fights we had involved the game indirectly - he was too tired from playing his game to take his wife to the hospital when I needed to go for example. I have since given up the game and will not go back to playing it.

Never heard of an Asperger's link - I did read a book once about a woman who battled to communicate and would just go silent and wondered if my husband has a similar problem, but since they never really said in the book what the actual problem was I couldn't take it further. Will look into it - sometimes I feel its a bit unfair to expect him to communicate well if he can't (nonetheless that does not excuse the silent treatment as that is a form of punishment he chooses to inflict on me - no matter how bad he is at communicating anyone can say hello when they walk in the door or answer a yes/no question)

Thanks for the support. It is a lot of work. Its hard when I'm hurting (and angry and lonely) to sort out what is just ideals I want and what is realistic. My feeling is that a healthy marriage is the best option for my daughter, but I have separated because what she was living with was not in her best interests. I would hope that we would both be prepared to put in the work it takes to give her what is best for her, but if it is not going to improve significantly then we cannot continue like that.

[Ageing Grace]

Blimey, Brotan, I'd say you're looking at a heavy addiction there. :(

Good for you, in acknowledging the importance of a healthy emotional environment for your daughter's development.

I looked up a few links for you (might save a bit of time):-
http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/
http://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-881673.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/OnCall/Story?id=4133184&page=1

Cheers,
AG

[Raymond]

AG may be right about Aspergers Brotan but normally these types will not withdraw out of spite or revenge. They are very logical people and cannot always understand all this emotional stuff. You would have known about this from the start if that was so.

The Five languages of Love may be helpful if he wants to be better. I disagree with the comment that your marriage cannot be fixed. It's not over until it's over and it is worth fighting for. Obviously it will need his co-operation and understanding of the different temperments you both have. That could actually be a plus in the end if all the issues are worked through.

Communication is the main problem here I feel and if he becomes aware of this in a big way there may be hope, so keep working on it.

In the early days my wife could smash a plate etc. (latin type temperment?) out of frustration as I was the withdrawn silent type, due to temperment yes, but more due to having not had a family to grow up in. Once she pummeled me with her fists. She always apologised later and I gradually learned communication (with God's help). We met in the middle and I can say that I have a brilliant marriage having come through that. Her main love language was touch, hugs etc. which she now gets plenty of, but not in the early days.

Raymond

[Brotan]

Raymond I agree with you that communication is our biggest problem. Thanks Ageing Grace for the websites. I do believe that my husband has a problem with general communication and I have known this since very early on - in fact when we first got married to try to help with the problem we would discuss things once a week - we had to write down 5 things that we wanted to talk about and then we would both takes turns. I actually ended up stopping this and I wish I had known better what was going on then I would have tried harder and tweaked it so that it could still work. I stopped it because for me it was about learning to communicate. My husband got stuck on the rules - you had to have the 5 things written down and could not just talk. It had to be written down a certain time before we were due to speak and all this I found very hard (for someone who just chats all the time) I found if I hadn't done it this way he'd just refuse to do the session and since it was literally the only time we ever talked, I grew resentful. I felt that we should have progressed from there to more normal communication and just telling each other about our day/week.

Nonetheless I am not convinced that it is Aspergers because like I said, he does withhold communication on purpose when he is angry. I would like to read more about Aspergers and the associated differential diagnoses though as there is definitely a communication problem in general as well as an anger-withdrawal issue. (To be honest I wish there was some condition like this as it might explain quite a bit and give some way to work with what we know - at the moment I keep feeling like he hated me and that was why he treated me the way he did - and he feels the same for why I treated him the way I did)

Thanks Raymond - I am setting up boundaries to protect myself and my daughter while trying to save the marriage, but it is very hard - its hard to face my own issues, hard to not know what my husband thinks or feels about matters, hard to watch my daughter and wonder what her future will be and hard to know when to give up and just get on with life or when to take the risk of living together again.

I have told my husband that I will not return until he has a job (I will lose the job I have now if I return - otherwise he must come and live where I have a job), quits the game he is playing and agrees to marital counselling. I hope this enough to work with.

[Raymond]

I really do hope you get somewhere Brotan. I am praying that you will in your life regardless.

What is your husbands family background? If it is not Aspergers there must be something else. One could ask why you married him? Was he communicative during the courting stage? Why would he be angry against you when he has such obvious problems himself. We do tend to see others problems and not our own. A lot of the trouble we had was damaged expectations. We each had our own ideas of what marriage was going to be like and were not ready for the clash in different expectations.

Much of what is going on in your marriage reminds me of ours at the beginning. I can now understand my wife's anger as there was so much at stake, not that it's ever justified, but understandable anyway.

Let me know about his family background. I came from an orphaned background and could have easily gone his way had I not found christ.

I believe something is going to happen in your life Brotan. God sees all and knows you are praying.

Raymond

[Brotan]

My husband's parents are still married and he has two siblings - a slightly older brother and a much younger sister. I think my husband has some middle child issues (especially being the second boy followed by a girl) - that being said I am also a middle child and may have similar issues. His mother is also quite uncommunicative and their family seems to deal with things by withdrawing and waiting for things to sort themselves out. I did not realise this til well after we were married and am only seeing the similarities now. I have been sending the grandparents (his parents) updates on our daughter as she is their only grandchild and while I believe that they are interested I have yet to receive even any confirmation that my emails are getting read. My husband believes that his mother was not treated well by his father and there was conflict in their home but what type of conflict I am unsure (my own family did shout a lot and there was some violence, not sure how they dealt with conflict in their family)

I married him for a number of reasons - I loved him and believed that he would be a really good father. We are both fairly introverted but in very different ways (his comes across more as a social phobia actually whereas I prefer relationships one on one) His brother commented at the wedding that I was the main person he spoke to and the communication was a lot better when we were courting.

I am not too sure why he is angry quite so angry at me - I think perhaps he feels he has lost some control. We bought a house when we first married that he was not keen on buying - he wanted to live at my work with me as it was being paid for by the job but I told him that that would be extremely stressful for me as a newly married person and it would mean that I would be at work 24 hours a day (they had after hours calls I would have had to take while living there) This was perhaps the first time we had to communicate in something that mattered so much to both of us and I thought he had agreed that to buy a house would be a good investment - seems he blames me for buying the house still and that he feels as a wife I should have just agreed with him to live at the job. I feel that negotiation was needed and that he should never agreed to sign for the house if he didn't want it or couldn't afford it. Now that he has resigned from his job he will not sell the house even though we cannot afford it - it is rented at the moment but not for enough. When we speak about why we are angry this is what he brings up time and again, but I am very unsure exactly what it is - is he angry that he didn't say no? I do not feel I did anything wrong by expressing my wishes and pointing out the pros and cons of the living matters.

That being said we are at the moment discussing expectations for marriage with a minister of the church I am in here - we have to do it by email as my husband is living far away, so will see how that goes. The positive about that is that my husband does say he respects this minister (he married us) so hopefully that will help.

[Raymond]

Sounds like there was some financial insecurity he felt at the beginning wanting to live on the cheap. I had that too at the beginning, but I never made my wife work again once she was pregnant. She has never worked since but has been a good mother. There is a bit of selfishness there in him being insensitive to your needs but at least he bought the house. There is nothing like working on a marriage to cure one of selfishness.

It doesn't look as if he has had that bad of an upbringing, maybe a bit of rejection there, but nothing that he should not be able to overcome. Obviously coming from a withdrawn type of family will have rubbed off on him but one can change. I had to.

I hope that the minister can give some keys in this. At least it is someone he respects and he may listen. Communication is one of the key factors in a marriage and you have your work cut out from what I have read on here. He will have a lot of adjusting to do coming from the type of family he does, but if he is willing to learn he can make it I feel. Wllingness being the operative word.

You obviously have your issues as well growing up in a shouting family. It can be a kind of attempted domination by a man or manipulation by a woman. One cannot control people or bend them to our wills. We have to love them as they are. That actually changes them in the end. I think both of you need to change and maybe the realisation of that makes him angry. But if that is the case burying his head in the sand will not achieve anything. He needs to be up to the challange as you are. I don't think this marriage will go forward without it. The rewards are amazing if you can get through this together and meet the challenges. Do you think he is willing? I know you are. If he won't work at it as well then it does look a bit hopeless. I hope that is not the case as I know two working together can practically overcome anything.

Keep posting. We may get some keys.

Raymond

[Brotan]

Do you think he is willing?
Raymond


That is the key question. At the moment I have to believe that he is, but his actions show an ambivalence that makes things very hard to read.

He has been asked by multiple people whether he wants this marriage to work and he always says yes. He did stop the computer game for 6 weeks after we separated but has since gone back to it. He saw a financial advisor when I asked him to although he did not follow what the person told him to do. He has been to see a psychologist individually - I think he went for a month (he did not answer when I asked him if he was still going so I am unsure about that, but I doubt he still is) He has replied to emails and we even went to one marriage counselling session together when I went back to the town we lived in for a week of work, but he would not continue the counselling through email unless I paid him money for the morgage and I would not do that - my reason being that he is not paying maintenance and I need the money for our daughter and also that according to the financial advisor that house should be on the market anyway. Besides which one of my needs as a woman is to be provided for financially by my husband - I have never expected him to provide fully and went back to work after my daughter was born, but I am already providing financially a lot and I could not afford the things he wanted me to pay for.

He has again agreed to do the counselling offered by our minister and we have only recently begun that - at the moment we are not in three way communication - we are both communicating only to the minister, so I imagine it will be ok for now. Will have to see what happens when we have to communicate to each other. In the meantime we are just sending general emails to each other about general stuff - how is trying to get a job, how our daughter is doing and so on.

The trouble is that there is a lot of hurt on both sides. He sees it that I left him (he went to his family for what he probably imagined was a week and I left when he had been away 5 days already) but nonetheless he thinks I left him and that is a sign of big rejection which I am not sure he will let go of so easily. I must admit that his silence caused me to feel an enormous amount of rejection too and I will have a hard time trusting him not to repeat that too.

At the moment we need to solve the very practical problem of how to start living back together again - its practical because it involves someone moving to where the other is staying (and we are VERY far apart right now) and a change of jobs (he must get one or I must change jobs) and there would be the issue of getting our daughter into a creche, finding a place to stay and so on and then making sure that we stick to the counselling.

[Raymond]

I assume you have already told him the reason for leaving Brotan. The fact that you are still trying with the marriage shows that you have not rejected him. What did you do, leave the house empty, or is that the one you rent out? He sounds very emotionally independent to me in the wrong way. You need to stand your ground about the money.

I read your comments on the sexless marriage thread which adds another angle to it. You need to make sure he is not doing porn as sometimes that causes a low sex drive, being a mental adultery.

All I am hearing is bad things about him. Does he have any good points?

Raymond

[BettyG]

Brotan, I feel the post I'm about to write will be quite harsh but sometimes we need a small shock to move forward. My intentions are not to hurt but rather to help you, I truly hope you see it as such.

I've have had considerable experience with social counseling. I'm seeing so many parallels here. Its a lot harder on a forum but I get the very strong sense that you are abusive to your husband and are like most abusive people be they male or female always can fully justify the abuse so the other person is to blame.

But let me try and cut through the chatter and ask you some very direct questions. And of course you can lie to yourself and us about the answers. But I really encourage you to be honest, brutally honest if you even have some doubts about the answer say yes. Something that helps is consider your significant other was answering the questions for you what would they answer.


1. Do you abuse alcohol?
2. Do you use drugs?
3. Do you swear when you shout at him?
4. Do you belittle/ put him down him? (constantly telling him he isn't good enough/ useless)
5. Do you use the word hate often when shouting at him?
6. Have ever had serious thoughts about seriously injuring him?
7. If so have you told him about these thoughts you have about injuring him while shouting at him?
8. Have you ever physically injured him?
9. Have you ever injured your self physically and on purpose?
10. Have you verbally abused other people. Friends, family or co-workers etc?
12. Have your children ever overheard you shout at him?
13. Have you ever used your children as a tool to hurt him? Classic example is going to them and telling them what a horrible person he is / putting him down?
14. Have you ever verbally abused your children?
15. Have the neighbours every complained about your shouting? Maybe with them calling the police to intervene?
16. Have you ever been diagnosed with a serious psychological problem?
17. Have you ever tried to commit suicide?
18. Have you ever been very physically violent while upset - breaking plates, throwing thing in a rage, kicking in doors - extreme rage.


If you answered no to the vast majority of the questions then I sincerely and honestly apologise. And dont worry I answer yes to 2 of the questions even but if you answered yes to 6 or more questions I'd strongly suggest you take a second serious look at yourself and get some professional help in the form of therapy.

I'm not saying at all that he is innocent here, some things you mentioned about him really concern me. But he isn't here you are.
God Bless.

[Ageing Grace]

Hello, Brotan

You wrote:
when we first got married to try to help with the problem we would discuss things once a week - we had to write down 5 things that we wanted to talk about and then we would both takes turns .... for me it was about learning to communicate. My husband got stuck on the rules .... if I hadn't done it this way he'd just refuse to do the session
I think you've already worked out that this sounds immensely like an autism-spectrum disorder. The syndrome often runs in families; if his mother is also Asperger's, that would explain a great deal.

Autism disorders are defined by an absence of 'theory of mind' - like children, sufferers cannot understand that others have their own thoughts & feelings. In short: an inability to feel empathy (the reason I say I couldn't live with one). As your husband is capable of operating in the everyday world - and, indeed, of getting married - he would fall at the mild end of the Asperger spectrum but it can still be extremely inhibiting for those close to them.

Of course, it's frustrating for the sufferer too. They often feel lonely and that nobody understands them (except fellow sufferers!) Things tend to improve if the person can be persuaded to accept a diagnosis & is willing to work at learning how to "do" social interaction. Many give up, realising they can't see the point of it :(

An autism disorder doesn't define personality. Even severely autistic people can have a sunny disposition. Someone with a predisposition to be cynical, suspicious, grumpy or moody AND an autism disorder can become very controlling and demanding - the upside, if you want to see it that way, is that their impaired theory of mind means they're not very good at lying.

If I were living with your husband, I suspect I would have broken more than a window! He's lucky that you're so motivated to understand him. I've just done Betty's temper test and scored 6 - at my worst, I hasten to add: when I was married to Mr Withdrawn.

I loved what Raymond said about Mrs Raymond's latin temperament! I lived for several years in Brazil. I've never felt so at home. Even the Brazilians said I was "more Brazilian than English" - I was just so happy to be amongst people whose feelings are out in the open; who don't take every flare-up personally :cool: If I ever have another long-term relationship, it will be with someone who respects emotions ... and enjoys argument!

You have a lot of homework to do, Brotan, and an interesting amount of self-examination ahead of you. Take it a step at a time. Please do whatever you can to provide your daughter with healthy models of loving communication and mutual tolerance.

Sending you a virtual hug -
AG

[Brotan]

There's a lot to go through and think about here.

Does my husband have good points - most definitely. He enjoys helping people and wants to make a difference in life, he is very helpful and serves people when in social situations. He is excellent with small children and they actually get on very well with him and warm to him far faster than with a lot of other people, he cares a lot about his original family (which makes me think he probably does care about his daughter and me a lot, but just doesn't know how to show it), he has strong morals regarding certain things (he doesn't drink or smoke etc). He is polite and gentle, he gives great gifts. I still love this man, don't get me wrong - and I know the qualities I admired before we got married are still there.

BettyG, I do not feel that my husband is to blame for the decisions I made. I agree with you that some of my behaviour may have been seen as abusive - I cannot excuse screaming and wanting to stab him, and I have never tried to. I am in therapy to work on these issues, but even the therapist told me that I needed marriage counselling to work on the issues because they seemed to be happening in the context of the marriage rather than in general. I pointed out that I tend to get very easily frustrated and have a hard time dealing with the frustration (even when I choose better methods than yelling) and so have worked on that and have since found that my frustration is less in general - but as I asked before how do I ensure once back in the relationship that things do not escalate back to where they were?
I do answer yes to many more than 6 of the questions to be honest. I am fully aware that I am the one who is here and that I can only work on myself and that I have a lot of work to do. I am still not entirely sure what to do when I get so frustrated and feel so disrespected - I have been told to leave the room until I calm down and that I can do, but then what... I also write in a journal to try to bring the frustration down. If you have experience in other methods I could use, I would love to hear them.

Do I tend to blame my husband for my actions - no, not fully, but yes... while academically I understand that someone is not to blame for anothers actions, I have a hard time believeing that someone cannot be provoked (not necessarily even on purpose) to an extent that their actions become excessive. This obviously applies to both me and my husband - clearly my getting angry so much provoked him into withdrawing more than he might normally have done so (I am not to blame for him withdrawing, but were I to decrease my shouting then he may decrease his withdrawal and the same for me - were he not to withdraw so much, I would probably shout less) The trouble is that the less seems not to be enough for us. My husband told me that one of his expectations for me was that I NEVER shout again - that is unfair. It would be the same as saying he must never ever withdraw again. How do we find a balance where there is space for us to learn new behaviours, still stay safe with each other and yet have the ability not to be 100% perfect all the time.

"that nobody understands them " - that is something my husband says all the time (but I always thought he was joking - maybe not)

When my husband and I split up I agreed he had issues that needed addressing, but having posted this here they suddenly all seem bigger and harder to solve. I think we have both acknowledged that we have a problem (maybe not to the extent that the other person would like) but its fixing it to a manageable level that will be so hard.

[Ageing Grace]

I am not to blame for him withdrawing, but were I to decrease my shouting then he may decrease his withdrawal and the same for me - were he not to withdraw so much, I would probably shout less
Nicely summarised, Brotan - and congratulations on your therapy so far!

If you ask your husband who does understand him, how does he reply?

AG

[Brotan]

My husband says that Nobody understands him. Apparently his sister is the closest to him, but she won't discuss anything either. I think my husband is just their quiet brother... but I am really not sure.

I am due to see my husband again at the end of March and take my daughter to see him, so will see how that goes. In the meantime I am waiting for our minister to get back to us after we answered the initial questions.

[Brotan]

Brief update: Our minister never did get back to us after we answered the initial questions and we were both frustrated as we had put some hope into that. My husband said he wanted to give up but then we got help from someone I have never met and are now in marriage counselling (this is a very long story I am not going to write as it has nothing to do with our relationship)

We are not very far into the counselling and both my husband and I feel confident with the person who is leading it. It is going to be very tough so I hope we are both up to it, but I am feeling more hopeful. We will see each other again at the end of March and I am really hoping that a lot will have been achieved by then and that we can possibly even enjoy each others company.

[Raymond]

Thats really good Brotan. You will get through in the end if you both want to. Your differences can become your strengths as has happened in our marriage. She was a bit like you I like him a bit. You will fit together perfectly more and more if you can believe that. You may need special help if there is an anger thing passed down the generational line.

Raymond