In bits

[kaye09]

H and I had our first session with a relate counsellor last night. I don't know what I was expecting really. I would love for someone to just tell me what to do.

It clarified a few things and I think H found it really useful. Just the fact that you can't sidestep things, deliberately or otherwise, with a counsellor there asking the right questions.

We concentrated a lot on his state of mind at the moment, and agreed that we need to stay apart for the time being, just arranging to meet/ speak about specific things. The idea is that he deals with some issues (many of which have nothing to do with me) and in doing so becomes a stronger person.

In the meantime he says he would do anything to convince me to come back, loves me and is missing me like crazy. Not that I don't think about him all the time, but it took such a lot to pluck up the strength to go, then get to the stage where he is now speaking like an adult that is responsible for his own actions. I feel guilty that I don't feel worse. I have been functioning ok, albeit majorly distracted. Ive been socialising and hes been at home in a bit of a mess...to put it mildly.

The last eight days have been such a rollercoaster and everything is so raw. I have no money, as spending money would normally come from him (i pay all the bills etc and we live day to day from his wage). I can't bring myself to ask him for any since its me that left and I don't want to make things any worse. I have about £6 in my purse.

I just want to curl up and sleep. I know I won't though. My mind isnt settled yet and it feels horrible. Everything is so uncertain and Im just waiting to see if I wake up one day soon back in love with him, forgetting how frustrated he has made me for the best part of a year, how unloving and generally pointless our relationship has been.

Until then I have friends and family looking after me in a way I can't remember since when my mum was alive. I really need her now. This is rubbish :o(

[outoftheblue]

The counselling is definitely a step in the right direction and from the sounds of it he has more issues to address than you. If he can be made to see that his unreasonable and selfish behaviour has driven you away, but he still loves you then he should be willing to try anything to alter his behaviour so you will come back.

Of course you don't feel a great deal for him at the moment why would you - at the moment he is still the same man who drove you away and killed your feelings for him. BUT, if he listens to the counsellor and mends his ways he will become the man you once loved and then your old feelings might return.

Bit worried about the money thing. I understand you paid bills etc and lived off his wage day to day. As you left you feel awkward asking for living expenses but are you still paying all the bills as before? Cos if you are that can't be right because a) he'll have more spending money to enjoy if he's not paying you and b) If you're still 'keeping' him that's not going to make him wake him and realise he's been using you. You need to come to a different arrangement either between you now or through the counsellor. Paying for himself and the house he's living in might be the wake up call he needs. And when it gets tough he'll realise how much he used you and that might make him change.
Cxx

[kaye09]

you're right. I need to get the money issue tackled.

Just after I posted he just turned up at work (I work with my family so it wasn't a problem from that respect).

He'd brought me a cd and said he didn't want to talk about anything important...just wanted to be around me. Wanted to stay all afternoon but I managed to get time to take him to the station. I don't know what to think about that. I know he's missing me but we had an agreement as a result of our session yesterday that we would meet by arrangement on Sunday afternoon.

I didn't get angry. Told him not to worry but that he shouldn't have done it. He says he understands but needed to, and that it won't happen again.

I am so confused. Im sure this isn't fair.

[outoftheblue]

He is just having a very hard job letting you go. If he isn't going to stick to the rules you are going to have to put some extra one's in. Check with the counsellor as to what might be best for both of you. When do you go again?

I think he also may need another type of counselling as well as Relate. It sounds like he has many issues to deal with about him personally which subsequently affected the marriage. Also if he has another therapist to talk to as well as the Relate one he may feel less needy towards you as the therapy will be fulfilling that need.

[kaye09]

We talked about booking another session but the counsellor said that unless I want to stay married to him then it probably won't be useful, so I've still got to make that decision. I feel so awful. H is telling me Im cold, cruel etc. He has emailed friends and family that I see regularly to tell them I need time on my own and to ask for help to get me to go away somewhere. He is also p'eed off that Im still going into work every day. Although, to be fair I am so distracted that Im only getting the bare minimum done. If I worked for someone else I would probably have to take some time out.

We spoke yesterday and had a difficult conversation but he said that, although he is upset and getting things wrong he does understand my need for space and he will try and respect that. 2 hours later I got an angry phone call from my brother telling me to sort things out one way or another because H had been on the phone to him saying that I am 'playing games' and that if I don't go home by the weekend he will call a solicitor.

I agree that he needs help outside of relate. He has had some major upheavals in his life that he has never dealt with and I think that has undoubtedly contributed to his state of mind. His childhood, his son(who he never sees), the death of his best friend five years ago that he feels responsible for...yet his family don't even know about it. He has hidden things so much. H does not face up to things naturally and this situation is a nightmare for him.

As much as I understand that, if I went back tomorrow it would be because of him minipulating my friends ond family to put pressure on me. I don't think he's being calculated about it. Hes too upset for that. I think a big part of it is that he 'knows' Im not going back.

Yesterday when I spoke to him about his conversation with my brother I suggested that it might be better if I just finished things now...to give him something concrete to deal with. After all, its not like we won't still meet up about other, related things and who knows what would happen three months down the line if we see each other and we are both getting on with being our own people. Thats what I was hoping this time would give us...but its obviously not happening because all he cares about is getting me back and its leaving no space for him to work on himself. Hes making some of the right noises/gestures, but I can't believe its anything more than him doing/saying what he thinks I want to hear.

I WISH I still loved him.. I WANT to still love him but I couldn't even kiss him the other day when I went round, which hurt him even more.

I am making such a hash of this. I wish someone would just swoop in and put the boundaries in place so it isnt coming from me.

May be I am 'playing games'. Not deliberately, but I don't think Im making this easy on him.

[outoftheblue]

It really is a tricky one. I think his family and yours should know about some of the issues he is burying and then they might understand more where you are coming from. It's so hard to know whether his desperate calls to all and sundry are cries for help or attempts to manipulate and control.

You should suggest that he try and see another counsellor for the other issues he is battling with and these may help resolve the more obvious ones. Maybe you could even tell the Relate Counsellor in confidence and ask how you should advise you H.

There seem to be so many issues, I tend to agree a fixed break of 3 months apart would give him time to address them and time for you to get your head together without doing anything drastic.

Get his and your family on side with this first and it will be easier to stick to.
Good Luck

[befree]

Please,please repeat this mantra to yourself for as long as it takes you to truly believe it "I am not responsible for his feelings or mental state" This man may keep you trapped for years if you allow this to continue.It does not mean he loves you,but that he is a mess of issues.They are his alone to deal with.Don't let youself make it your lifes work to heal him.It will never happen
Be strong and love yourself more x

[jools]

Hi Befree
It's interesting to see a totally different "take" on all of these isues that you put forward. I am not responsible for his feelings or mental state" This man may keep you trapped for years if you allow this to continue.It does not mean he loves you,but that he is a mess of issues.They are his alone to deal with.Don't let youself make it your lifes work to heal him.It will never happenYep --- been there and done that. For three years! Tried to pander to his moods and "fix" his depression etc. His indecisiveness and lack of straight talking did hold me there for longer than I should have stayed. I wanted to save him from himself - and save him for myself. But looking back now I can see that it is a horrible, horrible trap and a complete waste of precious time. Having said that, you would not have convinced me to give up while I was going through it. No one would. It's a realisation that we have to reach ourselves. In the end I pushed him into going and the year that followed was even worse - and so I wondered if I should have pushed. But 17 months later I can see that I was right to escape and would NEVER choose to go back. It's only when you stand clear of all the pain and raw emotion that you can see it for what it was. I just pray now that i'll be lucky enough to fall in love again.
Jools
________
PENNY STOCKS TO WATCH (http://pennystockpicks.net/)

[kaye09]

I am so glad to hear your perspectives. I am aprehensive for the future and thats why Im so determined to know that, if this is over, I won't look back and regret it.

A couple of days ago my sisters in law's husband phoned and took me out for a drink. He was telling me all the ways in which he thinks that H has changed, that he knows he's been an idiot and that, although it is a good thing that I left, I should keep trying because H is so committed now. I have his 'undivided attention'.

Brother in law said that if we could spend a couple of days together and gradually build it up that would be better, and then no-one could say I hadn't tried.

I have been home a few times for a couple of hours at a time. I keep getting told this isn't enough to be able to see his efforts ( its only been three weeks, by the way) but as soon as I get there I feel tired, uncomfortable, and desperate to get away again.

I am always polite and made the effort to notice how clean the house was and the time he put into cooking something nice for us. He wanted to hold my hand so I let him. But as I saw him feeling happier that I was doing so I just cringed inside. I had smiled and relaxed a bit for the first time last night and H has got so excited about it. Its made him feel positive about our future. What the hell am I playing at?

I was happy to see him: happy to see he was feeling stronger and making plans. He is a good friend and I want to see him doing well. We discussed that if we do split up he would still like to spend christmas with me and my family...as long as it doesn't feel to wierd.

I do see positive things in him. I don't know if its going to be enough, in fact, I seriously doubt it since, at the moment, I can't even bring myself to kiss him on the cheek. Hugs I can do...but then, I hug everyone.

I suddenly feel under so much pressure to 'force it'. It really isn't helping. By 11am today Id had 2 emails, 2 phone calls and three text messages, all eager and happier sounding...but I dont see it. :o(

I don't hate him, but I dont need or respect him either. When does this start getting better? xx

[Alan]

Kaye - hallo. I've been reading your story. Very interesting.

I'm afraid I can't come down on your side on this one. Your husband is the one suffering here and while there is an element of pain for you, he is going through a lot worse. Trust me.

You sound exactly like my (now) ex-wife. Cold. Sorry, but that's how you come across to me.

I recognise the words you use as most were used on me and to cruel effect. Some other posters have agreed with your musings about the control aspect of your husband's behaviour to the point it made you lose feelings and the walk-out. Unsurprisingly I don't. He's guilty of nothing more than complacency and for others reading this, please remember there are two sides to EVERY story.

I'm sure that you have validated your feelings with others and that you have made up your mind that your marriage is over - the phrase you used in your last posting - " .....but I don't need or respect him either ....." - is very telling.

I feel for the bloke, I really do. If you are willing to take any advice from me then I would ask that you do the following ; end it all now. Tell him that you have no future and get things moving so that both of you, but especially your husband can rid himself of a relationship that won't work. By doing what you are doing, you are giving him false hope, and that is very, very cruel indeed.

[kaye09]

Don't apologise for giving your opinions, that is what I am on here for. If I didn't want them I wouldn't ask. I know my husband is going through worse than me at the moment. I have been talking to friends about ending it now, mentioning false hope and all the reasons you have said etc. but they put doubts in my mind saying I have to try this, that or the other.

I am not trying to be cruel. In my defense I am not treating this as a game, I just do not know what to do for the best. Im sure the other posters on this site are well aware that there are two sides to every story, and yes, this is my version of events...it is fairly important though. I am not normally an unfair or cold person...I am in a mess, and am the first to hold my hands up and admit that. I know I have got a lot of things wrong.

Then there is the train of thought that you can learn to love someone again, given time and effort, and that I have a responsibility to do that because we got married. Theres a big part of me that wants to...but I just don't feel it. If I really didn't give a toss one way or the other I wouldn't be obsessing about it day and night.

I do appreciate your opinions though. The benefit of a forum is that you hear from people who have actually been there...that is invaluable. Its not just about hearing what I want to. Sometimes what you need is someone to tell it how it is. Thank you...sort of.

[kaye09]

Incidentally, I don't think its very fair to assume that all he is guilty of is being complacent. H knows and understands how we have got to this point. Since I left we have had some lengthy discussions about it. May be I hadn't made that very obvious. Sometimes I think it would be a lot easier to just think, stuff it. Im off...and deal with the consequences later. May be thats what I should have done.

[Desperate]

Hi Kaye. I too have to agree with Alan and Morty. I do understand though the predicament you are in. I also feel that you genuinely are trying not to hurt him. But because you are so confused on what to do, hearing so much advice from his friends/family and yours, plus the people on this forum, you are unable to make a decision.

Both Alan and Morty have made reference to "false hope" and I can tell you from bitter, painful experience, they are spot on. Giving him false hope is the worst thing you could do, it would be so unfair and extremely cruel.
Your choices of words certainly infers that you no longer love this man and that your respect for him is declining. You don't want to hurt him, so instead of being stronger and telling him it's over, you continue to provide him false hope. You see him feel more optimistic, trying to get you to see a different side to him..... and this, in turn, makes you angry, annoyed, frustrated....no wonder!!

You are losing your respect for him not because of what he is doing Kaye, but because of what you are doing. You know you are lying to yourself and to him by not telling him it's over. Subconsciously, perhaps you are blaming him for the situation you are in instead of accepting that it is you who needs to communicate a final decision.

I would love to sit here and tell you not to give up on your marriage, to give your H a chance. I can sit here and tell you that love CAN be reborn (it can!), but it takes so much work & effort and judging from your posts, I don't believe this is possible at this time.

You need to make a decision Kaye. You either:
(1) tell him it's over and file for divorce immediately.

(2) You get separate with the intention filing for divorce at a later date
(i.e. 6 months plus) That gives you an opportunity to be away from him completely...you may suddenly have a change of heart in a few months time, for whatever reason. You may decide you want to try again but there is no guarantee he will still be there for you.

(3) You commit to working on the marriage 100%. You get help when and wherever it is needed. You take it slowly, like you were dating him for the 1st time. You may even decide not to live together at this time. No sex. No sleeping in the same bed together etc. Whatever helps you feel less pressured. Explain it to him, so that he understands why you want to start SLOWLY. But you must also stop judging him negatively for loving you and wanting the marriage repaired. Stop feeling ashamed of him and yourself. Accept that you are going to really give the marriage a go....and what will be, will be.

Frankly though, I think you have made up your mind. Sometimes in life, we need to be cruel to be kind. I think you need to speak up. There is no way of preventing the emotional hell he will go through if you tell him it's over. But that hell will only be compounded by dragging this on and feeding him false hope. He will end up hating you (truly!) and you will probably feel the same way towards him.

[AnnieP]

I have to agree as well. Standing on the precipice of a possible failing marriage, waiting for my H to make up his mind whether he can try to love me again and return home or call it a day is just the most awful place to be.
I hang onto every nuiance and snippet of contact (not much), every word, every line, and try to interpret it. A word, a smile, can make my day or ruin it. I have no control over this at all.
He came home last week for 2 nights to help look after me following an operation.
At the end of the 2 days, he gave me the BIGGEST hug ever and I really got up my hopes that he cared. I foolishly turned his face around and kissed him and he burst into tears.
I am sure he did this because he is so upset about not knowing what he wants but also doesn't want to give me false hopes....which a film style kiss certainly would have done...
Kaye, if you know, please TELL HIM.
If you genuinely don't know, then leave the poor man alone and insist he does the same, until you are sure.

I DO so hope you can try to love him again....

[outoftheblue]

Kaye,

I have to agree with all the others that if you really can no longer love this man in the way you should then giving him false hope is wrong and will eventually make matters for him far worse. But it's clear from all your posts you are very muddled about what you really want. Obviously you care a little about him which is why you are as confused as you are, but is it love, affection or pity?

I have to ask - why did you come on this site - was it for support to stay or support to go - are you looking for enough votes one way or the other for us to make the decision for you? You know you are the only one who can do that, and even if we could tell you what to do, which we can't we don't know you or your H so wouldn't be making a subjective decision.

I know you are in a horrible place not knowing which way to turn and desperately needing help, because I do get the feeling you care about him, but is it a case of if you love him enough let him go? Can you write to him with all the feelings you have expressed here (watered down slightly so as not to offend him).He needs to know how confused you are and how his constant interference (emails, friends etc) though understandable are confusing you more.

It took a while for me to realise I had to let my H have the space he needed to 'get his head together'. It hurts like hell to be left hanging, but I took my strength from knowing the space I gave him was proving I loved and respected him, more than any call saying 'I love you, I need you' could. You need to help you H to realise that too.

My H actually told me he didn't want to be needed, and I can see that is where you are at the moment. If you can explain this to him, kindly, then he may realise, he has more chance of a successful outcome if he backs off. If after a time the outcome is not successful then he will have already got more used to life without you and life without contacting you, so the drift apart will be easier.

Being kind to him, isn't holding his hand to please him, it's respecting him enough to be honest with him and yourself. If you can't make a decision one way or the other yet - don't. But, tell him this and tell him if he can't give you the space you need to make the right decision for both of you then he doesn't love you enough.

Cxx

[kaye09]

I had to pick H up from work yesterday. He spent all afternoon in A+E. The sleeping tablets his doctor gave him had lowered his blood pressure and he passed out at the top of a flight of stairs. He is alright, but having people prodding and poking him all afternoon had made him even more upset.

I have read back through some of my posts and I know it looks cold. I do sit here typing and try to be as concise as possible. It settles my mind a bit.

I can completely see what you are all saying. Instead of the space thats needed I have kept on agreeing to little things. I understand he keeps asking because he is hurting and needs something to hold on to. Last night he told me that he would rather be in this situation than know I was never going back. That after we have done x y and z, if I still feel the same then he will feel better about it...more accepting.

As for leaving him alone until I know what I want. That is, believe it or not, what I had been trying to do. H insists that this is a bad idea as he 'knows me' and doesn't see how we can stop barriers from going up...and staying up...unless we have some sort of communication all the time. I thought about ringing his sister to pick him up yesterday but he had also lost his house key, so I couldn't do anything else.

Hs plan is for me to be at home for 2 days a week, one of which should be at the weekend. That we have ground rules laid out and posted up on the wall. I have told him I'll think about it and tell him tomorrow, which was our original 'date' night.

I know I am the one that left but I still feel so sad that we are here. I didn't mean to feel like this. Life would be a lot sweeter for me aswell if I were happily married and making plans for the future, but that just isn't how it is.

I really don't want to hurt him any more. At the same time, issues he's been hiding from for the best part of ten years are now resurfacing for him to deal with. He is going to counselling and anger management through his doctor. His family have said to wait until he's stronger as a result of that work before I make a decision about our future.

As for coming on here for support to stay/ leave. God knows. The chance to communicate quietly and think about things as I type them, then read back and see how I feel about it? I don't know. Maybe I should just keep a diary and stop upsetting other people.

Sorry guys.

[kaye09]

[quote=billyboy;30569]Morning kaye
Can you say with any certainty what you trully want now at the minute and do you think it could be different in,, say a month or so .


Right now, deep down, I think my feelings are too far gone. I have spoken to my husband about this and explained that if, hypothetically, I had to give him an answer tomorrow it would definately mean the end of our marriage.

I am putting it off for a number of reasons. Most of which have absolutely nothing to do with what I want.

1) The amount of stuff H has to deal with/ is dealing with at the moment: he says that the fact I haven't just gone shows that the last four years of being together are important and I have not just brushed him aside. That is helping him get through at the moment.

2) Its what his family have asked me for, and have reminded me about the 'for better for worse' part of my vows about a thousand times. Although, they do understand where Im coming from. My brother in law said he saw this coming soon after christmas and thought about speaking to H then, but didnt think it was his place (he's right...it wasn't)

3) H is getting stronger and, although I can't respect the man he has been...the reason for all this resentment...I do not know what is round the corner

4) I admit it...Im a bit scared

5) H says he knows the odds are stacked against us working out, but that he doesn't want either of us to look back with any regret about how we are with one another over the coming weeks, especially if it really does look like its over. One of the most sensible things he's ever said.

6) Hes spending all afternoon, and possibly night, in hospital today and they are doing tests for all sorts. Some of which are quite nasty. He only went to the drs because I left and it seems he has really been quite ill.


Even so. I have had to build a life outside of my marriage for ages. Since leaving, apart from the fact I cook my tea in a different kitchen and sleep in a different bed, my life hasn't changed a great deal from what it was two months ago.

Every time H has seen me I have been upset, so he thinks Im just as bad as him at the moment. The truth is that when I leave to go 'home', i turn the corner, stick my radio on and feel a bit better.

My brother in law put it this way. 'Its like we're asking you to go back and try at something you've already got over'.

Im not saying I dont have times when I miss him, or think about what life could have been like in five years if we were happy together. But we weren't happy together, for such a long time. If I hadn't done this we still wouldn't be building a family/future together. It had to get pretty bad before I would face up to what I had to do. I think I let it go too far, and any regrets I might have about this...I have probably already got.

One of the books I was reading talked about a 'hidden resevoir of hope'. Its pretty well hidden, but he is still my husband and it is a fact that I loved him and made him promises...every single one of which I meant when I said them.

:(

[outoftheblue]

Hi Kaye,

I think through your posting you are managing to answer your own question. The turmoil you feel is out of the love you once had for your H and for the promisses you meant when you made them. But too many things have happened for you and from the sounds of it too many demons for your H have altered the person you were when you made those vows.

You know and have said you feel happier away from him, then all the things you are doing for him are out of duty and pity and whilst kindly meant on your part are really prolonging the inevitable.

There does still seem to be an element of control from him, making you agree to staying 2 days a week one of which must be a weekend etc. Putting a list of rules on the wall that's no way to live especially if you know in your heart it is making you unhappy.

His family aren't helping by making you stay until he gets himself sorted. You are not responsible for him so as to take the pressure off them and it is unfair of them to ask you. I would also be slightly suspicious of how ill he is. I know that sounds really awful and I don't mean to sound harsh, but I know anxiety and stress can cause a lot of very real and very scary symptoms which is what he may be suffering from. Keep up to date with the results of his tests and obviously we hope they are all negative, but it would prove he is a) stressed with all this and his other issues or b) heaven forbid emotionally blackmailing you.

Keep posting here cos you will get a wide variety of responses from people experiencing the same as you. None of us want to judge just to help and offer advice from an outsiders perspective. We are all hurting in our own way which is why we are on here, and the comfort knowing others are there for you and the typing out of inner most thoughts and feelings with no fear of redress is what this is all about.

As you type and post to us I think your feelings are crystallising, and very soon you will find the answer and the peace you are seeking.

Take Care
Cxx

[Alan]

Kaye - obviously this is tough for you. But I can't bring myself to empathise with your thoughts. At all. Marriage is meant to be worked at, all the time.

You say that you know what you should do. Please, just do it. Make the call. End it. Because right now you are being (unwittingly) very cruel.

[kaye09]

I think you are right. But things are happening now with H that are making that decision for me in lots of ways. Sorry, this ones even longer than usual.

Yesterday H had a horrible day at the hospital. I had said I would go for the tests with him but because of his accident yesterday they rushed it through. I told him I would leave work and join him but he didn't want me to. He said that he wanted to do it on his own. Fair enough.

When he got home he rang me and sounded really distressed. He asked if I would go home for the night...seperate bedrooms. That he really needed a good nights sleep. That he didn't want to go round to his sisters but couldn't sleep at home with no-one else there. I wasn't sure but decided that, considering the bad time he had, and the fact he had said we'd sleep apart etc. it would be ok. He does desperately need some sleep.

I went home, made a cup of tea for us and then we went to bed. After 5 minutes he asked if he could sit and chat to me. I said no because you'll fall asleep and thats not what we agreed. He told me he wouldn't then laid down. Five minutes later he put his arm round me. I said no but he said it would make him feel better...just five minutes then he'd go to bed. Twenty minutes later I wanted to turn over so moved his arm and said 'come on now'.

He knelt on the bed and punched the mattress hard 5 or 6 times, shouting. I just got up and said I was sorry, that I shouldn't have come. It was a mistake and Im leaving now.

We went down stairs and he said he couldn't breathe, he picked up the sleeping tablets - the ones that make him ill - so I took them off him. They shouldn't have even been in the house. He picked up a pair of shoes and raised them above his head. I knew he wouldn't hit me with them but for a split second thought he was going to and screamed. He just slammed them to the ground and ended up in a heap. I stayed while he calmed down and he convinced me to stay...mainly because it was now too late for him to go round his sisters and he couldn't be on his own.

This morning he said he knew Id never go back as long as he was behaving like that. That he needs to start with us living back together two nights a week as soon as possible. This friday and saturday night. I told him that I don't think its a good idea considering the night we just had and the fact that he finds it so hard to stick to agreements then gets upset when I enforce any boundaries. He replied that he knows better than me what goes on in my brain sometimes and why cant I get that through my 'thick skull'. I am trying to make allowances for the fact he is genuinely struggling, but this is the same person that was so glad I decided to go round last night at all, gets aggressive then starts laying down the law.

Our original plan for this week was monday, thursday and saturday. On monday he was thrilled by this. Because of circumstances I have seen him tues and wed. I have said that after last night I don't want to see him today, not a punishment, just that I can't face it. I said I would see him sat day time and we're supposed to be spending time with his relatives on sat night...the idea being that there is less pressure on us / the way we are around each other, and maybe we can relax a bit in company.

This is now not good enough. He says that if I don't see him tonight I have to go round on friday as well as saturday. He has also said that when we do start our two nights a week thing I have to be in the same bed as him.

I wish he wasn't so tired and hadn't been dealing with all this other stuff aswell, because I really don't know that he would be pushing so hard to move the 'programme' up.

I made things ten times worse yesterday. I am contemplating agreeing to see him friday night, asking his sis to come with me, and telling him its over. He needs someone with him as he is so fragile but this can't go on. :(

[AnnieP]

Kaye,
I am thrilled that you are posting on here, as I can see some of your thoughts are exactly what my husband is going through too. Of course we all want a happy ending!
None of us here should be telling you what to do. You can only be the one who makes that decision, when you are good and ready to. Do not cave in and make a snap decision though. It could be the wrong one.
Agreed about the illness thing. I have just had a major op and it brought my H back for 2 nights to "nurse me". I am 90% certain he only came back through guilt/moral obligation.
I think he was feeling blackmailed into coming (not by me, but by his mother). He should not have come. It has made me hope again, and now he has gone I am thoroughly depressed.. More so than before. It was TERRIBLY tempting to play the dying swan and really try to wring some emotion out of him.
Stand firm with your H. We all hope it is nothing serious, but be aware that if he realises this is a way to keep you close to him, he could well milk it....

[AnnieP]

We cross posted. He cannot put that kind of pressure on you. Be firm.

[Desperate]

Kaye, reading all your previous posts, there is no doubt in my mind that your H has some rather serious issues - anger management being one. He seems to feel he can behave like a spoilt child and get his own way. I understand he is hurting but this type of behaviour is mindless, senseless and will destroy that molecule of hope that was left.

Kaye, whatever you decide, you can at least say that you are not leaving him because you have betrayed him by having an ongoing affair. There is no one else involved on your side. You are simply very unhappy and feel dead in the marriage. He is behaing in a very controlling manner. This sort of thing does happen unfortunately. I did warn you to expect him to behave in ways he will one day regret...I don't know why these sorts of situations can sometimes bring the worst out in us, but they often do.

My take away from all of this is that even if you decided to try with him, you will be back to square one, miserable as hell. Your H needs to sort himself out....until he does, he will continue to effect the women in his life in the same manner he has affected you.

He should have let you have the time alone you asked him for...he isn't allowing you to do that. He is trying to control and manipulate. I don't see any future here I am afraid.

[Alan]

Kaye, reading all your previous posts, there is no doubt in my mind that your H has some rather serious issues - anger management being one. He seems to feel he can behave like a spoilt child and get his own way. I understand he is hurting but this type of behaviour is mindless, senseless and will destroy that molecule of hope that was left.

Kaye, whatever you decide, you can at least say that you are not leaving him because you have betrayed him by having an ongoing affair. There is no one else involved on your side. You are simply very unhappy and feel dead in the marriage. He is behaing in a very controlling manner. This sort of thing does happen unfortunately. I did warn you to expect him to behave in ways he will one day regret...I don't know why these sorts of situations can sometimes bring the worst out in us, but they often do.

My take away from all of this is that even if you decided to try with him, you will be back to square one, miserable as hell. Your H needs to sort himself out....until he does, he will continue to effect the women in his life in the same manner he has affected you.

He should have let you have the time alone you asked him for...he isn't allowing you to do that. He is trying to control and manipulate. I don't see any future here I am afraid.

He does not have 'issues', he's just desperate as his life has just fallen apart. Sadly, his reaction is all too typical of a man in a comfort zone who thought his life, his married life, was working OK.

Communication, to avoid the situation Kaye and her husband now find themselves in, is important. And this, like most things in life, requires input from all parties.

From Kaye's perspective, she had obviously been thinking about dropping 'the bomb' way before she did, and had come to terms with her actions before the deed. In that way, she will cope better as the mindset has been established.

Her husband has not had time to adjust ; who knows how long Kaye has been working on her news?

This accusation of control and manipulation is nonsense ; the man is just hurting and is wholly inadequate at coping (like most men, and it does take one to know one). He's doing all the wrong things, but to him, they seem correct. He needs time to adjust, and as much as he'll hurt more, this can only be done on a formal basis. Leave fully or stay and work on it.

But no halfway houses.

And I'm not in the business of telling anyone what to do - AnnieP - far from it, but on a forum such as this, where people ask for advice sometimes that advice can be unpallatable.

I'm still coming to terms myself with the news I got three years ago. Kaye's situation is all too familiar and it took me a long time indeed to realise, despite all the false stories circulated by my then wife, that I was not (am not) a 'bad' person.

It turned out of course that she had been having an affair for two years before leaving me (how daft was I?) and while I was told this by friends after her departure, I refused to believe it. My marriage failed on many levels, and I contributed, but I was willing to work at it ; instead my then wife took the easy option. As it turns out it was a blessing ; I now have a good life, am seeing someone else and have a wonderful relationship with my son (who lives with me).

I can actually forgive the affair, but I will never get over the guff she told our mutual friends about our relationship and what a bad person I was. For a while I believed her stories too!

So, I see Kaye's situation from her husband's point of view. He's making mistakes right now, huge mistakes, but I do have sympathy.

[Desperate]

Alan, it sounds like your experience is VERY similar to mine ... and all detailed in my posting "will this end in divorce". So I do understand how the situation Kayes' H now finds himself in can make him behave in the manner he is. I also reacted in ways I wish I hadn't. It is not unusual, or abnormal, it is quite natural considering the immense pain and shock we go though. I did actually warn Kaye to expect this in previous threads and not to judge him harshly as such.

I do believe you have missed Kayes points throughout her posts to some extent though, regarding the "issues" her H seems to have. If you read her previous postings, this may shed some light on these. This beahaviour is not new Alan. According to Kaye, he has been quite controlling etc for a significant part of the marriage....read her postings, don't take it from me.

As for having empathy with her H....sure....I have been there and I am still living with the pain of it all. (almost 2 years now) So I know just as well as you what a nightmare he is facing. I think it is important though for us to recognise the issues Kaye has had during her marriage and accept that her Hs' behaviour is not new, it hasn't just started because he is affraid of her leaving him.

You stated in your previous thread that the accusation of control & manipulation is nonsense....not according to Kaye - and since she has been the one living it, I can only take her word for it. Why do you say it is nonsense, if her previous postings make reference to this?

[Alan]

You stated in your previous thread that the accusation of control & manipulation is nonsense....not according to Kaye - and since she has been the one living it, I can only take her word for it. Why do you say it is nonsense, if her previous postings make reference to this?

When someone is lazy or complacent, as appears to be the case with Kaye's 'H', it should not justify an accusation of controlling.

By the way, I get the 'point' fine. I'm trying to get some balance into the situation.

Don't forget that Kaye has had time to adjust mentally to her situation ; I'm sure she has been living a nightmare for a wee while and I feel for her in that respect.

But, sometimes things can lose perspective and when you are seeking justification for your actions, wee things that annoy you (in this case with Kaye's 'H'), are blown out of proportion.

[kaye09]

Does complacency include lying about being ill to get sympathy and keep your wife where you want her? Oh, I suppose I must be making that up, eh. Well Im not.

Sorry, I know this is new information, but I have just discovered that one of the procedures he supposedly underwent yesterday that caused him to be so upset was a lie. It was medically impossible for them to treat him in that way yesterday.

It takes two people to try at a marriage and I can't explain enough how hard I tried to make him understand that our situation was a serious one that needed attention. I did not have an affair. I did not just hide everything and then one day turn round and say ok, Im gone, deal with it.

When your wife wakes you up at five in the morning saying she needs you to listen, when she asks you to read a book with her that has a great big tag line across the front saying, HOW TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, when she asks everything in four different ways, email, letter, conversation, phone, to try and find SOME channel that you might actually hear. When she says, 'no matter what problem we've had in the past we've always faced it together and then its ok, but now we aren't sorting anything out...this is going to cause problems...please..'.

When she does this for the best part of a year you would think he might have had an slight inkling.

I know I must have been doing something wrong in all that time for nothing to have worked, but I can't accept that he's in complete shock. I think he was shocked when I left, yes...because he never thought Id do it. But I am not heartless.

Last night when he lost his temper it was over something that he would do to me every single night when we were living together. Rejection is a horrible feeling. As are isolation and resentment.

I have not been making stories up in my head to justify some kind of etherial version of events or to make myself feel better. We are in this position because my husband was not interested in his marriage. Fact.

I cannot look after him like a child. That is not what I was put on this earth to do. I have been dumped on from a great height by people all my life, dusted myself down and got on with it. This is the first time Ive taken steps to do what I need to...for me...and somehow now Im an evil cow. I have had to hurt. I have had to cry, scream etc. and I never played emotional blackmail or any other kind of game to get through it.

I do not escalate small things. Having £25000 worth of debt in your name while your husband won't even take out a credit card or joint loan to help shoulder the responsibility, is not a small thing. Its a great big humongous pain in the backside thing.

Not buying your wife a valentines card, or wanting to do anything on her birthday - despite knowing how upset she was about the valentines card five months earlier - is also a big deal.

Not speaking to her Dad for over 12 months because you heard that maybe, perhaps he said something about you which might not have been entirely true...to somebody who knew better anyway...is a big deal.

I have not just walked away from this marriage. I am the one who is TIRED now. I am the one who is FED UP. And he is the reason. So dont tell me that I have blown things out of proportion.

I have been hoping and hoping that over the past few weeks something will feel right again between us now that he is actually awake. But he's just angry.

It isn't going to happen is it?

[AnnieP]

Kaye, I am so sorry you are going through this. You sound so miserable and lonely.
You really do need a complete break from this man for a while. Can't you arrange soem time off work and disappear for a couple of weeks?
If its any help, his anger is a stage of grief. He may quickly move onto sadness.

[outoftheblue]

I think you guys are coming down far too harshly on Kaye and whilst I wanted to believe that Kaye's H was behaving badly through shock anxiety fear etc, I can see from all Kaye's postings that he is a bully and trying desperately to control her and make her stay.

I believe totally in marriage and working things through, but no one should be emotionally blackmailed the way Kaye seems to have been. I posted yesterday that I suspected his illness wasn't genuine and although I also wanted to say this but didn't want to for fear of scaremongering, I fear he may try and do something very silly to get attention/cry for help. Make sure you don't let him have those sleeping pills. I honestly hope he doesn't but from all you say Kaye he seems like the type. Again this would be to blackmail you into staying and you cannot allow him to do this, it's no basis for a marriage.

I know only too well the terrifying symptoms anxiety and panic can throw at you, but they aren't something you can turn on at will. Your H seems to be playing a different game and whilst some of the symptoms of anxiety, liking feeling you can't breathe etc, ring true they seem done more for effect and attention than anything else.

Kaye you know him very well and you knew when he asked you to stay that he would manipulate the situation, yet out of kindness you relented and he repaid you with control and then losing his temper. He is obviously very very scared of losing you and that is understandable, but his current behaviour is inexcusable and he needs psychological help to deal with all his issues past and present and then and only then will he be able to work at his marriage or accept that his unreasonable behaviour killed it.

Kaye you must not give in to him again, tell him if he really wants the marriage to work he must seek help, stay with his sister etc, but not see you until he has. Of course he doesn't want to be alone, we all hate that and whilst I accept what the guys say about men not dealing with rejection so well, his problems go far deeper and he needs to resolve them.

I know you are hurting Kaye and you are in a horrible situation, but don't stay with him out of pity or fear of what he might do, explain to his sister/rest of his family how bad his behaviour is/has been and tell them you cannot help him anymore, he needs professional help.

Remember marriage is a partnership of two equal people, who bring their own qualities to the relationship to enhance the life of the other person, we all have our strengths and our weaknesses, but a good marriage evens out the two from both sides. It doesn't sound to me as if you are an equal partner in the relationship and for the time being at least it cannot work.


Take care and much love
Cxx

[Desperate]

Yes, I have to agree with OOTB.

I am gald you let it out Kaye. Having read your previous posts, I think your last post has provided the most accurate appraisal of what you have had to deal with. It's clear to me that you are at your wits end.

Please understand though that you will get different points of view here. Most people have suffered terribly when their spouses left them, whatever the reason for leaving may have been. So when they read postings such as yours, there can be a tendancy to inadvertently over empathise with the spouse who might be left in the dust, picking up the pieces.

I had a feeling this illness your H was claiming may have been, at least in part, an attempt to make you feel sorry for him. But again, people do some very stupid things when they are facing the prospect of losing their partner. I was so upset and in so much pain that I took an overdose of tablets...partly for pitty, but mainly because the pain was too much to bear. Fortunately, my ex never learned of this. I gained nothing from it though, other than sleeping solid for 36 hours and waking up very, very sick. :eek::eek:

The problem though is that from what you have been saying, your H has been quite controlling throughout your marriage. So is this another ploy by him to control you yet again, or is he just behaving as many of us (man & woman) do when faced with such a dilema? Is this anger a stage of grief? Or is this who he is - an angry person?

My appraisal - your H does have issues! These issues are not new. He needs to sort himself out, get help. You need to get away. You're suffocating, honey. If you can afford time off, try and go away somewhere - away from everyone who is close to this. It won't solve your problems but, it will give you a little time to breathe again.

[Alan]

My final posting in this thread.

Kaye, if as you say, you feel the way you do, get out of the marriage. No more thoughts about reconciliation, no more meetings giving your husband false hope. As you say, you are tired. Time then for you to finally move on.

[kaye09]

I spoke to his sister last night and told her I am planning to end it today. I had to give her a heads up as it is her that will be picking up the pieces with him. She was hopeful that IL wouold feel differently this morning. I don't.

I am picking him up from work this afternoon. I want to make it stick and don't want to get dragged back into the same conversations.

I have written it down and will stay with him while he reads it. That way everything I need to say is there. But its not like leaving a Dear John lettter. Its only one side of A4. There is obviously more, but the note needs to serve a purpose, and it isn't all negative. I mention things I have been proud of in the past. This is something he will probably read over and over. I have been very careful not to say anything too harsh in it.

I don't know whether this is the best way for him, but I need to do this, and if I just rely on my wits to get things said I don't think I'll do a very good job of it.

I just realised, Ive never done this before. Split up with someone.

[huskypup]

Kaye

Though I am in your husbands position, I will be thinking of you this afternoon, it isn't going to be easy, but however much pain your husband is going through - he will survive and immerge from the other side eventually, he may hate you and that you can only expect, but one thing my predictament has taught me is "I am the most important person in my life and if Im not happy I can't make those around me happy", I know its a selfish saying, but i really do truely believe it.

Im not sure what you are planning to do when you tell him, but I would suggest leaving him alone for a few days, inform his family that you have done it but no contact, he will probably bombard you with phone calls I know I did my ex but if this is what you really want - you must stay strong.

Take care

Nancy
x

[kaye09]

Thank you. It is the right thing to do, even though its hard. I am nervous but at the same time know I will be relieved once it is done.

I am so sorry for what he is going to go through, but I would be lying to myself to carry this on any longer.

[outoftheblue]

Stay strong Kaye and although I am on the other side of this type of issue, I fully support you in what you are doing because it is the right thing for you and also for him, to finally get him to address the issues you say he has been burying throughout your marriage.

I will be thinking of you as I'm sure it will be as difficult as you imagine, because your h is probably going to react very badly. But you have been as kind and thoughtful as you can be in warning his family etc. and now it is up to them to help him through this and if they know him well they will know what to expect from his behaviour. If this is all new to them then they will see what you have been dealing with! Make sure he isn't going to be on his own later he will need help dealing with this.

You must take comfort from the knowledge that you tried your best and that this is now the right thing to do. Stay focussed on your goal and do not be blackmailed into staying, you will only regret it and the control will be 10 times worse.

Much love and virtual hugs - good luck
Cxx

[AnnieP]

Thinking of you this afternoon Kaye. Hope you can stay strong. Its gonna be tough.

[kaye09]

Its done. I told him I'd written things down because they need to be said, that this was important and I never manage to get my words out properly. He tore up my note and said that he didn't really read it but he didn't accept it.

We had gone to a quiet local pub and when we went outside to talk he was shouting at me so loud that a stranger driving past turned her car around to check that I was ok. To be honest, I can't see how it could have gone much worse. But he has a right to be angry and upset...I always expected it to be hard.

He said a lot of things he didn't mean. I knew as he was saying them that it was just pure emotion, even so it made it difficult for me to sympathise with him. He slumped on the floor by my car and said he needed help, that he couldn't breathe. I suspected this may be emotional blackmail so, although I would never have left him in that state, I decided to call his bluff. I unlocked my car doors to drive off and he immediately jumped to his feet and got in.

In short, I am a stupid, pathetic, crazy b**ch who needs a slap and is going to die lonely. He said that if I wanted anything from the house I needed to take it now because he was going to trash the place and burn all my stuff. That I was nothing before I met him.

I drove us back home and parked up outside the house. He started to go dizzy so I got out of the car and helped him to his feet. He prodded me where my heart is and shouted 'you're dead in there' then made me stand in the street while he watched me delete all his family's numbers from my phone. Including his sisters. He told me that that way I wouldn't be able to find out if he was hanging in our house. Then tried so hard to get my car keys out of my hand that he cut his finger. Sorry, no, 'I' cut his finger. He started to walk towards the house so I jumped in the car and quickly locked the doors.

Throughout all of this all I could say was Im sorry. Please let me leave. Im going. Please let me go. Im sorry.

I drove away and within five minutes got a call from my brother saying he didn't know what had happened, but that H says he didn't mean what he said. Later I got a text asking me to ring him. Just two minutes so we didn't leave it like that. I rang and he said I am the nicest, most lovely person and he was just devastated that he'd lost the woman he loves. He also mentioned getting in touch in a while (a week or so) to sort out finances and where we stand legally.

I can't think about this day clearly. Maybe in a while I will be able to, but it is all clouded by temper. I wish I could see a scale and where he and I are on it. Am I oversensitive or is he extreme? I may be wrong in being so affected by the things he says when he's angry. Anyway, its all academic now.

He is hurt and in pieces, and I am going through the final stages of calmly grieving this relationship. But I do have faith in one thing. I believe that we will both eventually grow into better people as a result of this. I know that sounds cheesy, but its genuine. If he knew he was going to see me for three hours in a week, he would live for those three hours. Its not right. I really think I have done the right thing.

I cannot tell you how much this forum has helped me. Seriously, thank you so much. And that includes you, Alan. Thank you xxx

[cw68]

I am really sorry that you had to go through this. Twelve years ago, I left my first husband (ironic now that I'm facing my husband leaving me, eh?) and it was pure hell. Believe me when I say that I know what you're going through. Just remember that as difficult as this is, your life will be better. All the bad things he said are just because he is angry and trying to lash out. Do not believe them as they are the act of an angry and desperate man. Let him have those moments and just move past them.

[kaye09]

I woke up yesterday feeling calm and relieved. Went shopping, spent the afternoon with a friend and went out round town in the evening.

This morning I have been thinking about him. I feel so sorry for what he is going through, but I am not going through the same thing. Not at all. Its like having the opportunity of a completely different life and its going to be what I make it.

In the meantime I am going to try and be as careful as I can not to make it any worse for him. I don't know how, everything I have done so far seems to have had the opposite effect. xx

[Helen_uk]

Hi Kaye

I haven't logged in to the forum for a while but on doing so I was caught by your posts.

5 years ago I left my then husband and he reacted pretty much the same way yours is doing now. He refused to see that the marriage was over and tried every trick in the book to get me to change my mind. I tried to handle the whole thing sensitively as although I didn't love him , I still cared and we had been together a long time ( almost 18 years )

Over the course of a few months he begged me to stay.. which I did ... and then proceeded to behave like a wounded animal. He even asked me to " confess " that I had someone else ( there wasn't ) as that would be " easier " to handle than the fact that I simply didn't love him.

He had everyone's sympathy and I ended up looking like a b***h, it was a tough time. He played the guilt card frequently, using the kids and how much he'd miss them as a handle to get me to stay. I have no doubt that at the time what he was feeling was genuine pain but I still knew it was the right thing to do.

8 months after I finally left he moved in with his new girlfriend and everything changed ! His life became sunny again, he became a completely different person toward me ( even to the point where he couldn't " remember " things about our marriage. Although he'd begged to stay friends and was adamant he wanted to remain in close contact with the kids, we rarely see him now.

Sometimes, no matter how hard it is, we have to do what we know is right and from the outside looking in I have to say that it appears every bit of contact you have with your H is making him think there is hope. Perhaps , though it seems cruel , it would be better for him... and for you.. to limit contact for a while ? Especially if you know in your heart and mind that the marriage is over ?

Regards

Helen x

[outoftheblue]

Well done Kaye, you know you have done the right thing and that is why you now feel calm and relieved.

Of course it is desperately sad when a marriage ends, but somethimes that is the way it has to be and you have shown courage in doing what you know to be right for both of you in the long run and compassion in caring about how your H is handling it.

I have seen through your posts that whilst you no longer love this man as your husband you have cared enough about him as a fellow human being not to want to hurt him any more than you had to, even to the point of nearly sacrificing your own happiness to prevent him pain.

You sound like a lovely person and I wish you luck and happiness as you start this new chapter in your life.
Cxx

[kaye09]

What a difference a week makes. He is now pushing me to get finances sorted out as quickly as possible, is going away for two weeks and has a date tonight with a girl from work who wants to spend time cheering him up.

H posted on a profile (on a social website) that he doesn't know why he should be upset about me. That he will find someone else quicker than I do as I am not exactly a catch.

I have been asking friends to be patient with him and not write him off as the situation we are in is of my making and he is just struggling to cope. Its a bit difficult when they see him saying things like that as it makes them angry with him.

I tried to explain this to him today. That I can't be held responsible for how other people take it when they see him acting like that. I have not been 'slagging him off', but he is making himself look bad. I keep telling them that he's just hurting but a couple of people have already said 'he's doing it too much now'

I don't know what 'too much' is...i suppose people will have to make their own minds up.

He has mailed a few people in a bid to mend some bridges, but always manages to insult them somehow and then I hear about it. He has said he wants to be able to go out a few times a year with me and my friends. I personally feel it is far too soon to be expecting either of us to think rationally, that he pushes himself too far and then his emotions backfire on him, which is why there are massive swings in his behaviour that are so confusing for all involved.

I really hope he manages to get himself together. In the meantime he is refusing to give me my key back and says I can only go to the house when he's there. He has said that he wants to pay me x amount of money as a one off sum, which I have agreed, but when I suggested getting a solicitor to draft up a document to safeguard both of us he got offended and accused me of being 'up to something'.

He asked me a few times if there is someone else, which I expected as it does seem like a reasonable question. I was happy to report the answer was a resounding no. Part of me thinks he wishes there was. It would be a lot easier to hate me then. Although if I believe what he says in half his emails then he already does hate me so no change there then.

I still think I have acted properly...if making a few mistakes along the way. Seven days on and no regrets. Lets see

xx

[Desperate]

Kaye, although things aren't perfect, I'm glad that things do appear to be moving on for you. Given the choice between you leaving him because you were unhappy, or leaving him because you have had an affair, I can assure you he is far better off with you not having left him for another man. Had you done so, sure he would have been able to blame you. But is his being able to blame worth the pain, loss of self esteem, dejection etc that goes with that. No way. I would have been far more forgiving had my wife left me to start a new life, rather than leave me due to a 2-year long affair. Your husband is lucky. You haven't betrayed him and you have tried to deal with the situation in a caring manner. How he behaves from here on is his problem.