The Old Porn-Watching Argument (A Mans Perspective)

[mutiny08]

OK, before I write anything else, I'm going to say that yes, i have read many of the relating topics in this forum. This is also a thread asking people for their opinions on my little issue here & that this thread will be quite long.

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My partner & I have been together now for a little over 3 years. Before we were together, I watched porn frequently. When we first got together, she knew this & was OK with it (or, at least, didn't say anything & tolerated it). Now, I think of myself as a very honest and generous person (without blowing my own whistle), so (as she had not seen one before) i decided to show her. Well that blew up in my face. She hated it.

Things continued on for a while until she came to me and we had a loooong discussion wherein she told me that she really disliked me looking at other women naked (in any context (including in movies)). She then asked me whether I would be willing to not watch porn and to look away from nudity in movies (which includes breasts (which are not listed as nudity on a DVD cover or in their classification)). She assured me that this would not go on for long, but she just wanted to get her head around it because it made her upset. I agreed to do it for her for that short while.

Perhaps this was my mistake & I should have stood my ground, but what can I say? I love her. I hate to see her upset.

So this continued and she seemed to appreciate it for a while, until she didn't really seem to acknowledge my effort for her anymore. She began to become more strict with the topic and would watch me like a hawk. I began to feel guilt for even seeing a music video clip or a girl in a bikini.

A few months went by like this & i became quite frustrated because i was under the impression that it was meant to be how she said it would be - for a short time. Anyway, long story short, i ended up watching porn behind her back. I felt guilty straight away but i didnt have the nerve to admit it to her because i was afraid she'd send me packin'. A month or 2 went by and i couldn't bare it any longer and i told her. well the sh** hit the fan. Anyways, she ended up "forgiving me" but things seemed to get worse. She became even stricter, and because i felt guilty for what i had done, i went along with it.

Our sex life was quite good. We're young, in good shape and love each other. However, this whole issue seemed to deteriorate it. That was quite hurtful for me because i felt that i was changing myself for her and not only did she not acknowledge it, she was making it harder for me by depriving me even more of sexual release.

Pornography to me was never about me fantasizing that i was with the woman on screen, even when i was single. It was a way to relieve stress & tension and just made me feel better. It was also interesting for me to watch because ive always been quite shy and watching it made me feel like i was going to know what to do in the bedroom better. It doesnt make me want her less or anything at all. If anything, it makes me desire her more because i feel really lucky to have such an attractive woman. I have told her this, but it seemed as if it went in one ear & out the other, as if what i was saying was so absurd that it wasn't worth her listening to.

Life continued and i ended up watching porn again behind her back and ended up telling her again. That time i really didn't know what to do because our sex life was quite poor and i couldn't physically & mentally take it. I don't believe i am a bad lover and asked her on many occasions if she would prefer i do something else or whether im just no good, but she assures me that its quite the opposite and that shes just not in the mood most of the time. Some of you are probably thinking 'maybe he IS bad and she just doesn't have the heart to tell him or perhaps hes a selfish lover'. I don't believe either. I perform oral sex quite regularly and most of the time try and get her to climax before me, and if i cant, i try damn hard to keep going as to make sure she does. if that isn't good enough, well damn i'd better start pouring the cement in my shoes and find myself a peer because i dont know what else to do.

Now, on to the current day. i have not watched porn after the second time. She has finally agreed that i should be able to watch a movie and not have to look away at something like bare breasts and butt, but she still wont stand for full frontal nudity and definitely not porn. I had a long discussion with her today because i don't know what else to do. I cant even watch a movie with nudity anymore. ive become so ashamed (i couldn't really think of the right word. could also be replaced with embarrassed and quite frankly, scared almost) that there will be an excess in flesh that i can't enjoy a plot anymore. even though i can watch while knowing that she cant get angry or upset at me, i still look away. i can't help it. I've also taken up watching hentai (which, for you who don't know is most commonly cartoon porno and is quite weird sometimes) *sigh*. She knows about this and was the one who suggested it, but, to be honest, it doesnt really work, but i still try. I have told her this on many occasions and did so again today.

She presented me with an ultimatum. Either i accept never being able to watch porn, or i leave. Now, i love her with all my heart, i really do. but it is to the point where i am almost tearing my hair out because i cant get sexual release. Like i said, im young and i probably desire it more now than i will in 10 years, but i can't help it. She asks me if i want her to have sex with me even though she doesnt want to and i say no, but deep down im so ashamed because its gotten to the point where i want her to, and to just not tell me or show any sign that she doesnt want to. Its not like we never have sex, but even when we do, i still feel like she does it just to get me off her back.

Am i in the wrong?
If anyone has any suggestions as to something that may help, please, please share with me as im quite desperate at the moment. I just don't know what else to do.

Thanks,
J.

[jo71]

I haven't had a lot of experience dealing with this (my h occasionally looked at it but I never felt it was a huge problem in our relationship), but I would suggest that both of you get counciling...but seperately. You for your addiction...you may disagree that it is an addiction, but if it weren't, you would have no trouble at all not watching any kind of porn, right? Her for her insecurities...she feels like you looking at any other woman is a betrayal to her.

My personal opinion is that it is disrespectful toward your wife for you to engage in any behavior that she has such a difficult time with. I understand that you feel you need an "outlet", but to have one that is at her expense is just not honorable to your marriage. What if your wife reacted this way if you were an alcoholic...wouldn't you agree to get help and stop? Of course, because you love your wife and respect her feelings.

Maybe after the two of you work on yourselves for a while, you can start getting help relating to each other in an intimate way so that you won't feel the need for anything sexual other than your wife.

Good luck...you seem like a very caring husband, and I really hope things work out for both of you.

Jo

[mutiny08]

I think that part of loving someone and making a relationship work is being able to compromise. There are many things that she does that i do not like, but still don't complain about because i feel that she should be happy.

I understand that that she shouldn't necessarily have to change herself just so i can have happy hour, but there needs to be SOMETHING, do u not agree? I do not think that a man can go without some sort of sexual activity for too long without having what you might call 'impure thoughts' or something of the like. As i said, i have tried other forms of stimulation, but it just doesnt work. My flippin arm gets sore before anythin happens, and thats saying something!

To be honest, i would love nothing more than to go to counseling with her or separately, even if it ended in someone telling me im completely wrong and unjustified, but, ashamed as i am to say it, i can't afford it. I am sure that if i looked hard i could probably find someone who does that sort of thing for free (perhaps as a community benefit thing), but to be frank, i don't trust their judgment. Any bum could have walked off the street to listen to a couple of people complain about their relationship problems, and i just dont feel comfortable with anyone who isnt completely professional. And knowing my city council, they will not pay good money for people who cant afford that sort of service. Perhaps i will look around anyway though.

In regards to what you said about what i would think if she reacted this way if i was an alcoholic... i think it is quite different. alcoholism presents many more problems than feeling betrayed. i understand that that doesnt make the porn issue any more ok, but i do think that its different.

i also dont really see it as an addiction. in one sense i can see how one could assume that, but in another i believe it to be something else. i believe that one (more probably a man), who does not get "sexual release" can become and is more likely to do many things. This could include things like cheating (something that i would bet my life on me never doing), lying, becoming violent etc. But i think the thing that kills me the most about it all is not that im going to feel lousy and on edge, its that im more likely to make her feel guilty because i want to make love and she doesnt. And i just cant help it. I tell myself to relax and not think about it and it works for a little while, and then i later i find myself in a situation where im trying to get physically close to her without even knowing how i let myself get to that situation.

I really dont know how to explain the feeling to a woman, or even some men. But when there is no outlet, you get a testosterone high that never ends. If i could afford to go to the gym, it would come in handy, lol. Seeing as though i cant, it doesnt really get used which just compounds the problem.

I don't know. Maybe it is all just me

[roppelt]

I have to tell you I think you should get out, if she wont have sex now she wont after you get married and then your relay in for it. I did not look at porn much before marriage, it never held my interest... but after living with a refuser I did, I went about 3 years and no sex about this time I started looking at porn she used it against me in court and I lost the farm as it were.

now she has a new husband and family...and I live by myself paying her bills as ordered by the court I can't afford to go out for a movie these days paying for the house and the car payments both of which she has. I am not complaining... I realize that this is fair. a man has a duty to his wife but I wish I had never married and I certainly wont do it again. I now live in a dump of an apartment driving a junk car and eating beans and bologna . I don't date but there is plenty of free porn. I don't want the women in the porn but I do miss the feeling of a women in my arms. so don't stay involved it will only get worse...:(

[jo71]

I agree that you should not get married until this is resolved.

You did say that it's not like you never have sex. Sounds like you two just have two different opinions about how much is enough. My h and I certainly did. The only thing you can do is talk to her about it and see if you can both understand where the root of the problem is. It's only fair to both of you to lay the cards on the table BEFORE you make the decision to do something wrong (cheat, deceive, hide things, etc.). You should let her know how you feel when she rejects you, and ask her to honestly tell you what you can do to make her feel more attractive. I say "make her feel more attractive" because with us women, a lot of times we just don't feel "sexy"...but you can help that by romancing her. Send her flowers, have a wine and cheese picnic in bed, draw a bubble bath for the two of you, and occasionally, tell her how hot she is! Whatever makes her feel good about herself. Also, ask her if there are things you are doing that are making her feel cold toward you. In my situation, my h was always very condesending and controlling toward me...he would scold me daily about the most mundane things...but then in the same breath, he would turn around and start getting frisky. I ended up being "cold" toward him because most of the times, I had just been made to feel like a complete loser...not the biggest turn on! This led to him feeling rejected because we weren't intimate enough...and straight into the arms of an o/w. I see the mistakes that I made in not demanding that he respect me more, but he was wrong to handle the situation the way he did.

Jo

[mutiny08]

oh my gosh Jo, you have pretty much just nailed the problem that my partner and i have with what you said about you and your h. i know what makes her cold towards me, but sometimes i really cant help it. i am what you'd call... a pain in the a**. debates are my best friend. i will debate about anything and tell anyone that they are wrong if i feel that they are (although, unlike most of the people like me, i can admit when im wrong). she HATES this. however, i have been like this my whole life. recently, funny enough, she has said to me that i make her feel stupid because i say shes wrong all the time. which i actually dont do. i DO however, try and put in my opinion as a type of constructive criticism, but i obviously havent figured out a way to do that effectively yet. I find it really hard to not say something because i feel like im in a situation where i can help her make the overall best choices (which is maybe wrong of me). think of it like this.
person a(pA) is designing a house layout and person b(pB) happens to walk by and see a make or break error in that design laying on pA's desk. if pB says nothing, and pA goes through with the design and then later realizes the mistake, but its too late to fix it, pB will get a whole lot of yellin come their way for not saying anything. the problem here is, either way its a lose situation.

Keeping all this in mind, i do as many other things as i can for her to make her feel beautiful, sexy, loved, wanted and needed. i dont have much money, so i can't do the whole romantic dinner thing or anything, but i try. i tell her shes beautiful and that i love her every day. Also, another MAJOR contributing factor is because i am in the process of joining the military i am between jobs, meaning we are living at her parents place. this makes things EXTREMELY difficult as they are (with lack of a better word) a pain in the rear.

Many of these things i can not help. I try and i try and i just dont know what to do anymore. I try not to be so argumentative, but i think its just in my blood (my father was exactly the same). she used to think it was cute and quite attractive because it showed that i wasnt a bonehead moron because i could win any argument, no matter the opponent, what we were arguing about or if i even believed what i was arguing.

I have lately really started to believe that women dont really want a kind, gentle sort of guy. i was that, and it got me screwed over. i did things for her even though i hated doing them and because i thought it made her happy. im now in a situation i cant get out of unless i give in or leave. she knows shes got me cornered because she knows i dont want to leave. Im afraid if i give in here then the snowball effect will continue, or ill just end up going against what i believe myself to be and lie.

[Mike56]

Greetings - this isn't about porn - this is about respect. And self esteem - for both of you.

I try not to be so argumentative, but i think its just in my blood (my father was exactly the same). she used to think it was cute and quite attractive because it showed that i wasnt a bonehead moron because i could win any argument, no matter the opponent, what we were arguing about or if i even believed what i was arguing.

"I could win any argument - if I even believed what i was arguing".

Waht might that tell or suggest to you? How would YOU feel if the positions were reversed? What is there that you can do to help change yourself? And what is there that requires you (as an inteligent and capable person) to have to do this type of "argument" stuff?

Mike.

[Hopeful0788]

Hello. I wanted to reply because my husband and I had the same type of issues previously. He used to look at porn on the internet all the time behind my back. For him, the reasons were to learn how to please me or to learn new things to try,etc etc. For me, I was deeply wounded. I felt like if he wanted to learn how to please me, he should be talking to me. Of course, those weren't the real reasons.

Also, my husband could "win any argument" too at the expense of my self esteem. Which in turn makes me now resent him. I was never right about anything and I could never give my opinion on anything without being led to believe that it was wrong.

I agree with Mike. This is definately a self esteem issue for both of you. She is untrusting and paranoid about the porn because your argument winning coupled with her previous/current insecurities are probably tearing her down as a person and making her doubt herself.

What else I have learned in my marriage is that the more you look at your situation as who is winning or losing or who has who backed into a corner, the more you both are losing because as you previously stated marriage should be about compromise and as Jo stated, open and honest communication between both parties.

I know another thing that made me more "cold" towards my husband was the fact that I always felt like I was the one supporting us and our family while he got to hang out and do whatever he wanted. I don't know if this is your situation or not but this could definately be a cause of some problems.

[mutiny08]

i know that being that type of argumentative person can have a negative effect on people, but is it better for me to just shut my mouth? If i do that then i feel like im not really being myself and that i have to tiptoe around her. A relationship cant survive (or at least be happy) like that.

Mike, in reply to your post (which i thank you for by the way), if the tables were turned i don't think i would mind that much. everyone around me knows how i am and can deal with it in their own way, why cant she? do we both have to change ourselves so that we are an exact reflection of the other so there is no hurt feelings or anything of the sort?
I don't attack her in an argument, which she is actually more likely to do to me (i think THAT does carry in her genes as her parents are exactly the same). I never deliberately put her down or anything like that just so i can win a debate, because i know thats not right. I never really argue with her about things i dont believe in and i always listen to her opinion and take it on board. i feel like she is free to say whatever she wants to me and that i have to wear soft, cushion gloves whenever i decide to say something back. How the heck does does that work?

Hopeful: i think i am different to ur husband. i dont win arguments at the expense of someone elses self esteem (i assume you mean by ending up using personal put-downs). I win an argument because i find loopholes in other peoples arguments. Its like playing chess. You think 10 steps ahead, prepare for what they're going to say before they even say it, then think of a reply, AND THEN to go one better, you think of how someone will find a loophole in your argument. At no point do i ever resort to abusing someone because i cant get them to agree with me. I don't mind if they dont agree, not at all. but i do mind if they dont even take it on board. i used to be a web designer and i would have people critise my designs all the time, and i listened to every single one. i didnt always agree, but i took what they said on board in an effort to make what i was doing better. is this any different in everyday life? i never thought so.

My partner believes that i make her feel as though she is always wrong, but thats not what i want. when i argue/debate/watever u want to call it with her, its not about me winning (unlike with most people i argue with). I just want the best outcome AND im hoping that she will bring up points too (whats even better is when she comes up with something that ive got no argument for) because that makes me feel better. It gives me comfort knowing that whatever conclusion either of us have come to is either right or wrong. I don't really think the problem started with me. She comes from a household where kids are seen and not heard and still, to this day, if she argues with her mother (which we will name Suzie), she will never win. Suzie will just start yelling and not even making sense anymore. She doesnt even talk to her father (even though he lives in the same house).

I know she has reasons to doubt herself and to have self esteem issues, but i think she dwells on them too much. everybody has issues, but that doesnt mean that they let them control their life. I grew up living in the worst neighborhoods in the state (only one of which wasnt living in my grandmothers house), having my father die when i was 10, have the school system screw me over, and then have to watch my mum try to raise me when she was getting paid half of what she should have been, and all the while we lived in my grandmothers house for the next 12 odd years. Now, i look at it like "sh-- happens". thats life and its a bi--h sometimes, but u just gotta keep on truckin'. i've tried to tell her this and to get past the crapness of her life and try to look forward into the clear blue sky beyond, but she wont. I don't want her to be upset at all. I just want her the way she was when i met her. Happy, cheery, and energetic.

Maybe im approaching it all wrong (which is probably why im seeking advice here), but i just cant penetrate through the thick wall she has. Keep posting people, i need help.

[Starlight]

You have two choices,

-You either continue to watch porn and accept that she will be upset (for whatever reason - she has every right)
OR
-acknowledge that she is far more important to you than a porno and give it up.

She also has two choices.

- She can either accept that you watch porno's and stay with you.
OR
- Not accept it and leave you.

A couple of decisions need to be made by both of you. Also, it isn't really about whether or not her issues are valid or not. To her they are, and you need to accept that. If you absolutely have to have porn in your life, then she needs to accept that or move on with her life without you.

[mutiny08]

its not that i need porn, its that i need SOMETHING. something has to compensate for something else. if theres no sex, there needs to be porno (because i believe thats what solves the solution best without cheating (which i will never resort to)). if theres no porno, there needs to be sex. now what happens when she doesnt want to have sex and i cant watch porn? im left there sittin in the rain. is that really fair? on the other hand, i dont want her to have sex with me when she doesnt want to because i dont really believe thats fair either.

So suggest a possible compromise. Im willing to try pretty much anything.

[Starlight]

its not that i need porn, its that i need SOMETHING. something has to compensate for something else. if theres no sex, there needs to be porno (because i believe thats what solves the solution best without cheating (which i will never resort to)). if theres no porno, there needs to be sex. now what happens when she doesnt want to have sex and i cant watch porn? im left there sittin in the rain. is that really fair? on the other hand, i dont want her to have sex with me when she doesnt want to because i dont really believe thats fair either.

So suggest a possible compromise. Im willing to try pretty much anything.

Have you told her this Mutiny08. You make some really valid points. I think you'll find that if you say this to her (maybe in some more selective words though) she will understand. Just tell her that she turns you on so much that you need an outlet.

My husband masturbates if we don't have sex. It doesn't bother me (in fact it turns me on most times), but I would feel uncomfortable if he needed porn to masturbate.

[Mike56]

Sally is making some interesting and valid points - it's about communication. It;s also about not "being a victim", but taking ownership and control of your own behaviours.

And about being happy within yourself. Then you are able to bring happiness to another person.

I have to say I've met remarkable few women who just "wanted sex" in the way many of us men do. The great majority of women associate the act of making love with something more than just the physical aspects, and there is all sorts of stuff going on with regard to affection, being valued, loved and apprecaited as a person and not just as a vessel to relieve one's sexual tensions with. I'm not saying thats what you do - I'm saying that's how I believe most women view the thing.

I HAVE met a few women who just wanted "sex" - and I also have to say that most of them were fairly selfish and unloving individuals who generally has a number of other issues they really should ahve dealt with. In many cases, they saw the offering / giving / provision of sex as being a way to "get" a man and/or control and/pr prove their worth. Now THAT should raise serious concerns.

I'm not saying it's not right for a woman to have the same drives, lusts, and desires as a man can - and to be as open in wanting sex - I'm saying that for both men and women I believe that really good relationships have a strong, loving and shared sexual element in them.

I also know that a lot of people (note - not one gender) will withold sex as control mechanism, a power thing. If thats the case, then again I've learned to question the fundamental basis of the relationship.

You sound as though you've pulled yourself up through life - and the need to be right is important - let me suggest that the real proof of intelligence is the ability to learn and grow, not to always be right. That means being open minded enough to accept that sometimes you're not right!

Another aspect of love is helping someone else to learn, to grow and to develop as a person. That's true in life, as in love. So, if you see someone making a potential mistake, think about whether all you do is tell them they are wrong, or do you help them find the correct solution?

You can be the "sage on the stage" (I'm the expert - I'm always right) or the "guide on the side" . Your call.

The problem is always being the Expert is that an "ex" is a has-been, and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure ;-)

Mike.

[Hopeful0788]

Mutiny,
I didn't mean that my husband puts me down (although this happens somtimes without him realizing it) I just meant that he always makes me feel like I don't even know what I am talking about (even when I know I do) by finding "loopholes" in what I say. The fact that you talk about your partner's parents not allowing her to argue and being seen not heard brings a giant red flag to me because it is possible that by you debating or finding loopholes in her argument she feels that you are not hearing her either. This is just a suggestion, not saying either one of you are right or wrong. Usually there is no such thing in a relationship. There is only each person's perception and to that person, perception is reality no matter how right or wrong they are. I really hope that you work this out. I agree a lot with Mike about sex being more than a physical act. I and most of my friends I have talked to need to feel valuable and need good communication and to feel like they have a say or an importance in a relationship among feeling needed, loved, cared for, paid attention to, etc, etc..

In fact, I would go so far as to say sex is much more an emotional act than a physical one for me. (Don't get me wrong I enjoy the physical benefits very much), however I don't enjoy the phycial benefits if the emotional benefits are not there and actually, sex becomes very draining and miserable without the emotional aspect that goes along with it.

Just some thoughts. I do agree that she should be giving you some ideas as to what to replace the porn with, but I believe this whole thing is a process that you both need to work through with lots of communication.

[Raymond]

I think you are using porn as a cop out. Nothing justifies it. Every time you do it you are alienating your partner even further and lessening the chances of working through the intimacy problem, after all it is a mental adultery. You are in a no win situation looking at porn. Once you have the addiction you won't be worth relating to. The very fact that you do it or threaten to do it must make your partner freeze up. You are virtually threatening her with porn if she doesn't perform and she can't perform because in a sense you are being sexually unfaithful and hurting her everytime you do it. There's nothing in porn that helps a marriage rather the opposite. Best to come clean and take your chances. If you love her you will keep pure for her and be faithful to her. That's how I see it anyway.

Raymond

[mutiny08]

I understand and agree with what you both (Mike & Hopeful) are saying. I don't view sex as just a physical thing, far from it. i would much rather have a romantic, loving evening than a short, meaningless romp in the sack to relieve some pressure. However, as a man i believe that the pressure i mention has to be relieved somehow (romantically or otherwise). Keeping this in mind, i think we could all agree that there needs to be something (not necessarily sex, but not necessarily porn either). I guess we just havent figured out a solution we're both ok with.

Raymond, what you said actually annoyed me a fair bit. In no way does watching pornography "alienate" anyone. If anything, i tried to get her involved.
On another note, I don't know whether you actually read what i initially posted, but if u did i dont really see how you can come to the conclusion that it is mental adultery. i dont fantasize about the women on screen and i never did (even when i was single). if i was picturing myself having sex with these women instead of (or even as well as) my partner, then i can see where you're coming from, but im not. Keep in mind that i only ever watched it twice after she asked me not to (and in a year and a half, i'd consider that quite good (especially after reading some of the posts other people make and comments ive heard around of other men doing it close to every week behind their partners back)). If you believe nothing justifies the watching of pornography, please enlighten me as to a solution to my problem. How can i keep myself from tearing my hair out, without having sex?

[Helen_uk]

mutiny08

Ok I have avoided getting into this thread but I have to comment on the part about it not alienating your wife and you trying to get her involved !

Your wife obviously doesn't like porn, so why try to involve her ?

Do yourself a favour, if you love your wife, stop watching it or you may end up like my partner ( ex partner ) and I. We were together 5 years and our relationship started to fail when I discovered his porn use. He did it behind my back even though I asked him not to. I started to distrust him. Somebody then told me he was seeing someone else , and, without even waiting for him to have a chance to say anything I threw him out. I don't know how true this " affair " was, but the lies certainly were. Our relationship is over .Keep hiding things from your wife and I can almost guarantee you'll be going through the same thing a few months, years down the line.

The solution to your problem lies in your own hands, do you love your wife enough to stop porn and start trying to sort out your problems in bed ?

Helen

[mutiny08]

Ok... ill reply to both of you seperately...

Helen: I tried to involve her before i knew she didnt like it. i tried to involve her because im not the sort of guy to keep secrets. thats the whole reason i went through the embarrassment of showing her what i was doing. its not so i could get some extra happy fun times in the sack.
I also find it irritating that you and many others say that if i love her I should stop. I could turn around and say "If she loves me, shouldnt she let me watch it because i feel that thats the only way to relieve myself without forcing sex upon her?". So dont use that argument. Also, the reason i watched it behind her back those times (and there was only 2), was because i felt like i was forgotten (which isnt an excuse, but it gives u an incite into my mindset). I didnt know what else to do. i had already talked to her about the problem, which helped her sympathize with me on the day, but the next day went back to being the same as always, as if we'd never had the conversation. How can you possibly sit there and say it is ok for a one sided thing like that to happen. i didnt know what else to do.

Bellabrave: Just because i can watch porn does not necessarily mean that i agree with all the things that go with it. For example, i eat chicken and other forms of meat all the time, yet i do not necessarily like the way these animals are farmed, transported and killed. I don't like that women are paraded around as sexual objects and that i cant walk into a newsagency without seeing 50 magazines like Ralph etc right there in my face next to the cooking and gardening ones. To be honest, i couldnt care less about the bloody "20yr flawless bodies" that you speak of. If you read my post, porn for me was never about the women in the video, it was about the act they were performing. for all i care, she could be overweight and in her 60s. Also, whos to say that my partner doesnt have a "20yr flawless body"? I never mentioned her age or what she looked like (however i do believe that i mentioned that i found her very attractive and wouldnt change a thing). For all you know, she could be a 19y.o supermodel (which ive told her she could be if thats what she wanted to do (she definitely has the body for it)).
Do you think i like that men are such pigs around women? I don't believe i have ever stared at a womans breasts while talking to her or EVER "wolf whistled". I don't beep my car horn when i drive past an attractive woman like most men, nor do i stare, drool dripping from my mouth. I have eyes for my partner only (in the respect that shes the only one i want to be with etc etc). I don't see a problem with looking at someone and saying that they are attractive, as i can have a conversation with my partner about the very topic. I can say that a man is a good looking man without wanting to have sex with him. Its no different with a woman.

--

I want to give you some more background information.

My partner was my first "proper" partner. She was my first lover and i hers. Just so you can get an idea of what type of person i am when it comes to treating women like a sexual object, ill tell you a story of what happened while we were on a "date" very early on in our relationship (after perhaps only 3 dates before that).

We were at the mall just walking around talking and having a good time. You know, all that good stuff. We went on the escalator to go down stairs back to the car. I bent down to tie my shoe. As i stood up, i accidentally brushed my hand against her butt. Now, any "normal" man that you speak of would have either said nothing or have done it intentionally, trying to grab a feel. Instead, being as i am, i apologized profusely and turned bright red. She thought it was cute and is one of the reasons she decided to go on more dates with me after that. She also says thats one of the things that made her fall in love with me. Such a little thing, but she saw it as evidence that i wasn't one of these men you speak of.

--

Keeping all that in mind, i think you could understand if i take a little offense to someone implying that i am something that i despise.

Either way, thank you for your comment - i look forward to your replies.

[Raymond]

I
Raymond, what you said actually annoyed me a fair bit. In no way does watching pornography "alienate" anyone. If anything, i tried to get her involved.

I,m sorry if I offended you Mutiny. I feel you do not realise the power of what you are doing. You owe your love to your wife. Trying to get her involved in porn would be an insult to her. You say you don't fancy the women. Something is happening to you Mutiny when you do it that you don't seem to understand. It's filth and must affect your marriage. Sex in marriage is wonderful, but adultery and porn will wreck any marriage. It is still a kind of mental adultery. You are having eyes for other peoples bodies in an obscene way when it should be for your wife. I think you are polluting your marriage and then complaining that your wife is not opening up to you.

Raymond

[Helen_uk]

Mutiny08

Ok I can answer that question easily.

I can say if you love her you have to stop because sorry, watching porn to a woman is a form of cheating, I'm not saying that's the right way to look at it, but for many of us that's how it is.

Now, if you say that to your wife it feels as though you cheated, then maybe you can understand her reluctance to have sex with you. I'm not going to argue her case or your's, I don't know either of you.

Sorry, she may have a 100 reasons for being the way she is, I couldn't even begin to guess at them, but,at the end of the day if porn is causing this problem then the solution is in your hands, and it's your right to do as you see fit as an adult. However it is also your wife's right to do as she thinks is right. We can all only be responsible for our own behaviours. We can't change our mind sets to suit someone else.

Helen

[Raymond]

Mutiny08

Ok I can answer that question easily.

I can say if you love her you have to stop because sorry, watching porn to a woman is a form of cheating, I'm not saying that's the right way to look at it, but for many of us that's how it is.
Helen

I think it's the only way you can look at it as a women if you believe in love and faithfulness. I don't think intimacy is designed to encompass others in the sexual realm. I certainly look at it that way even being a man with all the temptations. There's no room for porn, adultery etc. in a loving marriage. I don't apologise for that. That is how it is.

Sorry for my short interposed messages I've got a housefull this Easter and can't give it the time I want.

Raymond

[mutiny08]

Wow, to be honest i really dont know what to say anymore.

I actually find it funny in a way. Either you don't QUITE understand my main point, or you have a differing opinion on the solution and outcome.

All anyone so far has said to me is to stop. Thats all well and good, but what then? Oh how many countless threads there are on this forum about men cheating on their spouses. I am of the opinion that if women denied men a "release", it would greatly increase the number of these threads popping up. I can deal without watching porn, i really can. But what you're not taking in is that im saying i need something. no one has suggested any alternatives. as far as i can see, either you all think that it should be sex with my partner (which she doesnt want (for watever reason)) or nothing. OR, none of you can think of a solution. Neither of these help me.

I get it through my head that theres no way that our relationship would work if i watched it and she hated it. theres no question.

in regard to what you said bellabrave, you sorta contradicted yourself. you said that a womans body is more beautiful after something like childbirth, but i couldnt really make myself believe that you{/I] believed what you were saying. either you [I]do believe it and u think men dont think the same way, or you doubt it and just wish it was that way. To be honest, i kinda like a more "normal" body on a woman. im not in to fake boobs, liposuction and lip enhancements. many people think im old fashioned in many ways, and this is one of them. i much prefer the classic beauties. now, as u may be aware, these women were usually on the chubbier side of the scale. to me thats beauty. everyone says that fashion labels and stuff dont use "real women" to sell their line, and i agree. And i think its a damn shame (excuse my language)
I think it was wrong for you all to assume that i was talking about pornography depicting the "perfect bodied women". For all you know, i may prefer something a little more "real".
But to be honest, neither of those is correct. I prefer neither. It makes no difference. what you arent concentrating on is that its not about the women. Actually, now that i think about it, i actually dislike these "perfect body" pornos, because they DO concentrate on the woman too much.

also, one more thing... i told my partner about this forum and what i was posting etc. She didnt really feel the need to look. she was happy that i did it because it helped me deal with some things on my own, but she doesnt necesarily feel the need to go down this path. also, what you said about there being plenty of "beautiful men out there who wouldnt dream of disrespecting their woman like this"... i think ur a sucker. I dont mean to be rude, but please. The man you are talking of is either super religious, or gay. EVERY man has a "dark" side, and this just happens to be mine. some men have much darker sides than some, and i consider myself quite out of the shadows. You see, i have come to notice that many women believe that these men exist, only to end up on a forum like this, telling everyone how they found out that "out of the blue" hes having an affair or that he chats up girls on dating sites. I know guys, because i am one. There are things that a man will never admit to a woman, no matter who she is, and the tendancies of things like this are usually one of those things.

On the same topic, but another note... i also did a little "background info" on you bella. I think that this topic hits too close to home for you. I think you are EXTREMELY bias in your opinion which is probably due to your own personal problems with this issue of "unrealistic expectations of what a woman should look like" that you seem to have. I read a thread started by you back in 2005 and i read that your h used to watch porn. well, well, well. at that time it seemed as though you didnt have much of a problem with it except for the fact that it started creating of physical attraction problems for you. I think it is unfair of you to turn around now and imply that i am such an abnormal, disfunctional and bad parter when you yourself would have had no problem with it in the past except for this problem of yours. How unfair. I really think you need to think about what you're posting in this thread and re-read your own thread while your at it.

Even with that said, i still appreciate everyones opinions, so keep them coming. (even if so far no one has agreed with me or even REALLY sympathised with me, but only told me that im in the wrong, its still gives me piece of mind knowing im trying to fix a problem that im creating for my partner.

[Helen_uk]

It boils down to this.

If your wife refuses you sex, then there is no solution to that unless she decides to do something about it. You can't control her behaviour, only she can.You can control yours.

This leaves you with the choice of course.

I'm almost afraid to suggest this, for fear of being yelled at but... have either of you considered counselling ? Either individually or as a couple ? I am assuming you have made sure there isn't a physical reason for her not wanting sex ?

Ok that's my last word on the subject, if you ask for opinions on here , that's exactly what you get !

Helen

[jo71]

OR, none of you can think of a solution

Mutiny, I still stand by my original suggestion:

Maybe after the two of you work on yourselves for a while, you can start getting help relating to each other in an intimate way so that you won't feel the need for anything sexual other than your wife.

I don't suggest nor do I believe that stopping will end all of your marital problems. If your w is not having sex with you, there is a reason for it and you need to get to the bottom of it. It could be deep issues from childhood, or something as simple as she doesn't feel romanced by you (there is a saying that foreplay for a man is 1 minute...foreplay for a woman is 1 day). Stopping cold turkey is IMO a bandaid on a tumor. It doesn't address the real issues as to WHY you feel such a need for the porn, and WHY she doesn't have a big desire for sex. There's something there that needs to be fixed.

Good luck,
Jo

[Mike56]

Even with that said, i still appreciate everyones opinions, so keep them coming. (even if so far no one has agreed with me or even REALLY sympathised with me, but only told me that im in the wrong, its still gives me piece of mind knowing im trying to fix a problem that im creating for my partner.
This isn't a debating chamber - and it's interesting that you'd post as you have. Why should we agree with you? The considered opinion of the people who ahve taken the trouble to read your posts and reply is that porn is wrong!

Period.

If you are trying to fix the problem, then can I respectfully suggest you take the advice?

FWIW, you've managed to irritate me - and thats based just on reading what I read. So, a thought - if you've managed to get my back up, and I'm a bloke with no interest or involvement with you, can I ask you to question the impact your approach may have on your wife?

Perhaps thats the reason she doesn't want to make love with you?

Failing that, there must be some other underlying reason and perhaps that's worth exploring for the two of you.

Regs, Mike.

[Helen_uk]

Hey Mike !

Had a good Easter ?

Helen

[mutiny08]

As i stated a few posts earlier, my current financial situation wont really allow me to go down the counselling path. If i had the financial means, we would most certainly be doing that, but i just cant afford it at the present time.

My partner and i have been discussing this issue a lot lately though (in a positive manner). Theres been laughing, crying (and ill admit not just by her) and a whole lot of cuddling. She has had a talk with her GP and believes part of it may result from her contraceptive pill, so she has decided to try another method. And before anyone thinks that i may have pushed this upon her or anything, SHE decided to do this and i had no hand in it. When she said this i could almost feel a change on the wind. This brings me to a question i have for some of the ladies here...

Is it common for the pill to significantly change a womans mood (not just regarding sex)? I noticed that right after she began on it that she almost became a different person, but i thought perhaps it was just a natural change that people go through periodically through their lives. Could this be a contributing factor?
Her GP suggested that this coupled with another pill she is taking (both of which are known for possibly reducing sex drive) could be one of the main reasons for this. I know what you are most likely going to say and that is "that may be, but there is still probably underlying emotional/childhood/etc issues that are contributing" and i agree. I hope this is a step forward though.

I know i havent really said much about whats been happening between the both of us, but its all been good. We're both positive and want this problem gone.
Boy am i glad to be with her.

[Helen_uk]

Yes the pill can turn off sex drive and cause symptoms similar to PMS. It can create a hormone imbalance and it's a case of finding one that suits.

Helen

[mutiny08]

Mike, i never intended this to be a debating chamber. Nor did i say anyone SHOULD agree with me, it was just an observation i made.

Admittedly, i can get pretty heated pretty easily (especially lately), and what you just posted got me goin'. I am no longer solely interested in what people think about whether or not porn is "wrong". If you had followed what has been said in this thread, then i think you would have come to that conclusion. what i am now interested in is for someone to help me with an ALTERNATIVE. if one is not having sex, and isnt watching porn, what the heck do they do? i know a few answers but none of them are appropriate.
I will also add that i have been with my partner long enough for her to know how i approach things. With that said, just because i approach something a certain way on here does not mean i approach it the same way with her.
Anyways, i do not wish to start an aggressive argument here because i dont think it appropriate. Please forgive me if i have offended you or anyone else for that matter. It was/is not my intention.

Jo: I want to make clear that i dont have a need to watch porn itself, but for there to be some sort of aid (watever that may be).
I also found the saying "foreplay for a man is 1 minute...foreplay for a woman is 1 day" quite amusing - i had never heard it before and it is quite true. There is also another saying - "there aint no romance without finance" which i also believe to hold some truth. I do my best to romance her when i can. Our situation makes it difficult, but i try. I am also aware of the whole foreplay thing, so i try to make an effort to maximize the time spent in that area. besides - the journey to your destination is half the fun. In some cases, its so fun, you forget about the destination all together and just keep on cruzin' :P

As i said, i don't mean to come off too aggressive or mean anything by what i post here. I apologize if i have in any way offended anyone or made them feel uncomfortable or threatened for that matter.

[jo71]

YES!!! I attribute the pill to *part of* (certainly not all) our marital troubles. My h also observed the same things when I was on it vs off it. So yes, a definative YES.
Jo

[Raymond]

Perhaps thats the reason she doesn't want to make love with you?

Failing that, there must be some other underlying reason and perhaps that's worth exploring for the two of you.

Regs, Mike.

One cannot say more than that. I was always suspecting personally that Mutiny's behaviour was closing his partner up. While you think Porn is a fair solution to your relationship Mutiny, you are showing her what a problem you have. Why should any woman want to share herself with porn images. As long as it's an option you have a problem which is affecting her.

There is a difference in fighting porn internally and excusing it in certain situations. No I am not whiter than white but I know what I should be fighting and am not making excuses for it. It is just a personal judgment really, a moral judgment if you like. What I do know is that marriage is a wonderful precious thing including the physical intimacy and porn etc. would be a means to destroy that.

It's about love and commitment to your partner. In a way you have the means of awakening her physically through love, faithfulness and commitment and porn is not one of them.

Raymond

[Mike56]

Hi Helen - I did as it happens - a few days with good friends enjoying the wonderful Scottish West Coast! How was yours?

Mike

[jo71]

Mutiny, I had forgotten about this post from you, and wanted to remind you of it also...

oh my gosh Jo, you have pretty much just nailed the problem that my partner and i have with what you said about you and your h. i know what makes her cold towards me, but sometimes i really cant help it. i am what you'd call... a pain in the a**. debates are my best friend. i will debate about anything and tell anyone that they are wrong if i feel that they are (although, unlike most of the people like me, i can admit when im wrong). she HATES this.

It seems like you know where a big part of your problem lies. Now you just need to do something to fix this. And unfortunately, only YOU can fix it, not your w. Maybe if you really worked on this character trait of yours (and maybe she could try a diff form of birth control) maybe that could be a start. ??

Jo

[mutiny08]

Helen, thanks for the feedback.

In my search for answers i also ended up getting the impression that the higher the estrogen exposure, the more likely these symptoms are? Also... from what i can tell, a combined hormonal pill has one (if not THE) highest exposures?

Thanks,
J.

[Helen_uk]

Mike

I'm so glad somebody did ! Mine was... well lets just say I'm glad it's almost over !

Helen

[mutiny08]

Jo. My partner and i came to the same conclusion. So, even though i sorta felt real crappy and alone because no one who posted here really tolerates porn much (if at all), i still took on what everyone said. So, thanks everyone who did post. Even though i might not (and may never) agree with you on certain things, it still gave me a different perspective and has ultimately helped.

So, Jo, i have (and still am) trying to fix my argumentative attitude toward my lovely partner (even though from my posts it probably seems like i havent changed a bit over the past few days). I think she appreciates it. :)

[Helen_uk]

J

Any form of hormone can cause an imbalance and from what I remember from back when I took the pill it can be pretty disturbing . It's certainly worth further investigation as it is a simple enough thing to put right.

Helen

[Mike56]

Mike, i never intended this to be a debating chamber. Nor did i say anyone SHOULD agree with me, it was just an observation i made.

Admittedly, i can get pretty heated pretty easily (especially lately), and what you just posted got me goin'.
Interesting comment - combine a personality trait with the possible effects of the pill, and maybe you've found some answers!

So I "got you going"! Why should that be? because I disagreed with you - challenged you? And I only suggest this with the hope of a positive outcome for you btw! And I mention it again with the reminder that I'm not your partner, we don't know each other, and we are several thousand miles apart.

And now I'm challenging you to consider what I've said!

FWIW, my ex-wife (a lovely person) was never especailly interested in sex - she described herself as being a "spiritual lover" - that is to say she needed to connect on an emotional and spiritual level in order to want to make love. I'm a rather more physical and earthy type and I think she found that my more physical drives were disconcerting for her.

She also attributed her lowish libido to the the pill, although I can't recall what type she was on.

Please feel free to get a s upset with me as you like! I really don't care. I greatly respect people who are prepared to admit they may be wrong, and who seek answers to help them in uinderstanding why somethign is as it is.

As I've said before, the only thing you can control is "you" and your own behaviours.

Tough as this sounds, it might be that you either accept that you and your wife have different sexual needs and desires and live with it - or you give thanks for the good times and move on.

Either way, it remains a fact that your use of porn is causing your wife a problem.

Mike.

[mutiny08]

I don't know exactly why it made me feel heated, but it just did :S
I guess i felt sorta threatened and like u were attacking me personally.
My past hasnt always been very friendly, and one of the only things i could ever rely on was my family and my ability to argue my way into/out of things and almost make it a way to protect myself from anything. I mean, hell, if you can argue the pants of someone, it gets to the point where it doesnt matter how they try and insult you, they end up looking the fool and you never feel threatened. Only in the past couple years has that died down (actually, since i met my partner), and i guess what you said just made me feel how i used to. Arguing was my way of preventing a physical fight.

Im not a fighting type of guy or even a mean one at heart, but certain people that i was forced to be around made it so that i had to have some sort of barrier. And seeing as though i was always afraid that i would take a physical fight too far if it came down to it, arguing was my way of keeping sane (and alive).

However up-myself this sounds (and i know it sounds extremely), its not often i come across a person that i feel would give me a run for my money in something that i pride myself in being good at. So, when someone like that comes along, i cant help but feel threatened and to an extent, take it personally.

However, i apologize for coming across that way to you. It was wrong of me to do so (no matter whether or you say i can get as upset at you as i like :p).

--

P.S. I thought about what you said:

"So I "got you going"! Why should that be? because I disagreed with you - challenged you? And I only suggest this with the hope of a positive outcome for you btw! And I mention it again with the reminder that I'm not your partner, we don't know each other, and we are several thousand miles apart."

I came to the conclusion that the fact that we dont know each other and that we are several thousand miles apart made me even angrier. I guess it stems from spending too much time playing computer games and talking to people over the internet who talked big but cowered in a corner if faced with the same situation in real life.

[Mike56]

I'm not phased either way - all I hope for all of us is that we look within ourselves for answers - sometimes those answers may be rather more painful than we would like them to be, I know many of mine our.

So, from my pespective as a detached and impartial observer, and based only on the very limited interpretation I can make because I'm only using the words you type and I read here, I can only suggest again that it might be worth looking at your need to "always be right".

Yes, the net is great isn't it? We can be who we want to be, in so many areas of our life.

But you said this:

- - made me even angrier

Look within and ask why would you actually get "angry" with me? Then ask if it;s easy to get angry with this total stanger cowering behind his keyboard a million miles away, how easy is it to get angry with the person you love? And having done that, what can you do to control your behaviours in the hope that doing so you'll produce happiness for both you and your wonderful, lovely wife?

Angry?

Thoughtful?

Keep strong - Mike.

[Hopeful0788]

Mutiny,
As someone who works in a pharmacy with lots of medications I can honestly tell you there are SEVERAL medications, especially hormone medications that can not only decrease your sex drive but completely change the moods you have from one day to the next. In addition, almost all medication for depression (if she takes any) will dimenish your sex drive as well. Couple those things with the smallest relationship problems and it is a recipe for disaster.

I am happy to hear that you all are working on some solutions and hope the best sex life and relationship possible for you both. Good luck.

[mutiny08]

bella: you make it sound as if i cannot stop watching porn...

"PS for the record...I dont think your lady has any hormone imbalance...she simply doesnt want to have sex with a man who spends his free time masterbating over other womens bodies...why the heck would she...dont you even get that?"

I think the last time i watched porn was over 6 months ago. you also said: "you see it was always very simple to those of us who knew how stopping the porn would change things...You would begin to become pure in you thoughts, and reconnect with your partner and if anything like the journey my husband and I have had...end up making love (yes thats right....not f.....) and a heck of a lot more often and with more passion"
as i said... 6 or so months... its not about having "impure thoughts" its that, no matter what anyone says (men included) i know darn well that a man needs sexual release (in SOME form) eventually. I think that is quite normal. I am also not someone incapable of making love to my partner, and who only thinks of f----ng. In fact, i would much prefer the first of the two.

As with what you said regarding these "beautiful men"... well... i've known a lot of men in my time and never have i come across one of these that you speak of (unless they were gay or extremely religious (and even then...)). I am of the VERY strong opinion that any man who makes himself out to be one of these "beautiful men", is fake. And i know plenty of women who will believe it. Hell, i could make someone believe it if i really wanted to... but im just not that type of guy.
also, i know that my partner would not go for one of these guys because they would most likely be what she would call "on the fruity side".

It also interested me that you said that you dont think my lady has any hormone imbalance when right after you Hopeful posted saying that that is most likely the case (especially because she IS on both the pill and an anti-depressant). I also spoke with my partner about this and SHE says that she thinks its a hormonal thing. We spent hours talking about it and in that time she told me (more than once) that it wasnt that she didnt WANT to in her mind, but just that her body couldnt get in the mood.

Answer me this question bella... if you stopped making love to your husband and he wasnt allowed to watch porn... for how long would you trust him? Until what point would unwanted thoughts of him betraying you go through your mind? Could you even REALLY trust him to begin with?

I wish every woman could be in a mans body for a week (and vise versa) so they could really understand what goes on. Oh the stories ive heard from guys that sound exactly like yours on the outside, but are horrible on the inside. Please do not take it like i am trying to instill doubt in you about your H, because he might be the most trustworthy man on earth, but i want you to really think about it.

--

Final notes:
I dont mean for you to feel that i am shoving "negative anger" upon you, i just like peoples answers to be justified and preferably backed up with evidence.

I still also believe that (at least for me), your analysis of what viewing pornography does to men is inaccurate. ("but I do feel that men who view porn are INCAPABLE of believing that...why? regarardless of the women they are viewing , they are training themselves to view womens bodies as a series of 'meat objects' purely there to fulfill their sexual desires. The woman is not viewed from her achievments, life experience and value...she is purely flesh...This is what porn does.")
For me it was actually quite the opposite. Back when i used to view pornography, i viewed my partner in a very different light. I actually felt emotionally & spiritually closer to her because the physical aspect was less important (because i wasnt horny). Think this through. When a man (or woman i guess), is horny, sure, they may feel emotionally connected and whatever, but there is a part of their brain (and depending on how horny they are, it could be a very big part) that cant stop thinking about the physical. Can you truly be as close as can be with someone like this? I am of the opinion that the answer is no, but i look forward to hear what you have to say.

P.S. When you read this, please try to keep in mind that im not trying to be mean or judgmental and that the tone that i write this in is meant to be portrayed as quite calm, but just digging for answers. Please try not to take offence or anything - it is not meant to be taken personally.

Take care everyone :)

J.

[mutiny08]

Ok, a few things here. Here i go...

First, I would appreciate some urls to this research you speak of (to support your argument and for my gaining of knowledge). Also, I don't know how other men view their partners after watching porn, but i certainly know how i view mine. I have no reason to lie. Like mike said to me, we dont know eachother and your thousands of miles away with no real concern about what happens. Also, my partner has no real interest in reading what is on here, so its not like i have to worry about her seeing something i dont want her to see.

As to your question about whether i feel that porn is degrading to women or not... in a way i do believe that, but in a way not. No, i would not appreciate any of my relatives or friends to participate in the production of pornography per say. If however, they were to make a "sexy movie" with their partner and decided it might be fun to share it with some people or something... well, hey, its only a bit of fun, and, at the end of the day, its their decision. Also, i wonder how you think i support it? If anything it was quite the opposite? I never paid for it, i downloaded it... so in a sense... i guess i stole it (sorta), which, you could argue, undermined the whole industry. Also, i never expressed any interest in the industry itself.

I dont see how your counselor came to that conclusion (about self esteem and power issues). I can only answer for myself here... but porn never gave me any sorts of feelings about either...
I dont believe i have self esteem issues. I am quite happy with the way i am. I wouldnt say my self esteem is through the roof, but i am quite content with myself. I also dont believe i have power issues. I like to be right, but not because it makes me feel powerful. I find a certain comfort in knowledge. I seek it to better myself. That is why i like to argue. The more i can make people think about things, the better their answers become. The better their answers, the better i have to make mine until eventually one of us will learn something.

About the hitting a raw nerve with me... it certainly did. Not because i feel inadequate or that i feel im not being the best i can be for my partner or even that i feel i am not projecting who i truely am or anything like that... its because i know men very well. Look around you. This forum is full of women whos men are unfaithful and who find out "after years of no clues" that their man is not who they thought he was. Men have become experts in deceiving women, and we know it. What do you think happens a majority of the time when men have a "guys night"? They talk about crap they dont want their wives to hear. Why? Because they hide things from their wives/partners. And again, why? Because they're men.
I am in no way a perfect man, nor do i claim to be. I try to be as honest as i can, but i slip up every now and then. I have my faults, as all people do. i DO however, think that i am of a huge minority of heterosexual men who arent extremely religious who act the same way around their wives as they do their mates. Call me up-myself or whatever you like, but only a man will be able to argue this point with me because until you can live as a man for a day, i will consider you ignorant. --- Its not your fault or anything you can change. My argument is, afterall, that men are great at decieving women, so how could you, as a woman, argue against it? Please dont take it personally or think that i am resorting to saying this because i have no real comeback or anything. You are in the same boat with every other woman in reguards to this sub-topic.

I do wish that you not back down from this thread and discussion with me. I look forward to hearing a reply from you. Afterall, whether i agree or even believe what you are saying, i still listen and take it on board. It cant hurt to reply. :)

Take care :D

J.