Our first big argument

[jo71]

Hard to believe that we are getting divorced when I consider that today was really the first time in 17 yrs that we had a real raise-your-voice confrontational argument. He isn't making a very big effort at all to spend time with our kids, who are at an age (and going through a lot of teenage problems) where they really need their dad in their lives. I consulted my private calender today and since he moved out on 3/4, he has only seen them 4 times. He doesn't call them very often just to check on them...he only calls if it's close to a day that he is planning on visiting them, to coordinate times, etc. So today, I took him outside so our kids couldn't hear and really told him how I feel about this. I told him it is really sad the cycle he is perpetuating...his father walked out on them when he was a teen, and he couldn't really care less about his father now...and I told him that is what he is creating now for his kids. He disagreed (of course). He said the kids enjoy when he takes them out, and told him today they have more fun going out with him than staying home with me. I told him WELL OF COURSE THEY DO...I have to stay home and be the bad guy...I have to make the rules, enforce the rules, ground them when they break the rules, stay on them about homework, doing chores, etc., etc....whereas he gets to just waltz in once every week or two, take them out somewhere fun, buy them things, and then drop them off...who WOULDN'T have more fun with him??!! He kept walking off to leave, then he would turn around and come back for more. lol I told him that the kids are learning from him how to not honor commitments, and that he has a lot of repairing to do with them...rebuilding their trust in him and their respect for him. He said, "I did honor my commitments for 17 years!" What the hell? I told him, "I don't believe our vows said, 'til 17 years do us part'!!". We went back and forth for a while, then he said he had people waiting on him (he's helping his boss with a remodeling project) and it 'wasn't fair' for me to keep him there arguing about these things. I told him..."DON'T YOU EVER TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT'S NOT FAIR."...and I turned around, walked inside and slammed the door. He left. Then (this is the shocking part) he called me about 5 min later, apologizing to me!! I say this is shocking because my h has hardly EVER apologized to me for anything. He said he realizes that I have good intentions in telling him about not continuing the cycle (of his kids feeling the same way about him that he feels about his father), and he appreciates me telling him that. He said he was sorry for not visiting them more often, and that he would try to do a better job in the future. I told him I appreciate his apology, and we ended on a positive note.

When I reflect on what happened today, I realize that this is probably the first time in 17 years that I have actually stood my ground and stood up for myself, and not backed down. I have never raised my voice to him, I've never pointed my finger at him and preached to him. And I've NEVER EVER walked away from him and slammed a door in his face. So now I have to wonder if this a side of me that seeing now, maybe he respects me more?? I don't know how things are going to go for us. I mean, I know we are getting divorced...he is dead set on that. But I don't know how we are going to relate to each other...I guess it will depend on how much he steps up and becomes the father that he hasn't really been the past 16 years. I can't imagine him ever putting his kids first (above his work), but I pray that something will click with him (maybe something I said today even) and he will realize how screwed up his priorities are.

Anyway...just venting tonight. I haven't posted much in the past day or two, and I had some things on my chest.

Jo

[Monica_V]

Dear Jo,

Well done!! It has probably done you a lot of good to let your H know exactly how you're feeling, and to let your anger and frustration out and direct it to the person that's causing it!! Again, well done!! :D

It's funny how they all make the mistake of trying to tell us about "fair" ... My LEECH makes that mistake once in a while. The first time he said he was just trying to do what was fair to both of us, I could have literally killed him, because nothing about his behaviour towards me has ever been fair!! (and that was before his friend told me about the other affairs!!)

Lately he has taken to saying I'm going to come out alright of this divorce.
These are the only times I lose my rag and my temper and I scream at him. How effing dare he say I'm going to come out alright of this?

Yes, it's true I'm a very strong woman, but I'm not kidding myself ... this is damaging ME more than he will ever understand, and it's all his doing. So how effing dare he?

Anyway, I'm really proud of you hun, don't let him get away with it anymore. :D

Take care and post soon.

Mon XX

[Coffeebean]

hey jo and mon way to go to both of you i also find that my h is much more responsive to being hit and hard when he steps out of line. Maybe we were just too nice????? It must be the week for arguments my h finally managed to say all he wanted to say to his mother about gifts it all started sadly enough with an agrument to do with our little baby because his mother wanted to buy her a high chair but one that she wanted to get and h said, very polietly for him, thank you we will show you which one we want or ask you for the money which is what we did to my mum who bought the baby a cot :) so cute, anyway his mother did n't like that hence 2 days of arguing when h finally lost his and sent a very hard hitting message about her presents not being wanted and neither is she. Well she does send strange presents and never asks what we want just gets large gifts which i just thank her for and re send to other people. H has been wanting since mother's day to tell her how he felt but i stopped him anyway i couldn't stop this one. Neadless to say i got a phonecall from mother-in-law in absoulte hysterics sobbing and crying she has decided to not ever get him any presents every again or to see him but she will get me presents. I have had to tell her that i felt unable to accept them if she did not get h any as i felt it would put stress on an already precarious relationship (do you think i did right) i was also very supportive and have spent 3 hours letting her talk and calming her down. Isn't it amazing that even when i am having an unsettling time with my h i still have to deal with his problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey jo do you think there is any chance your h will come round and a divorce can be avoided? I think it is great that you stood up to him and let him have some home truthes. I'm not surprised mon that you loose your temper when your h says you'll be ok thats what use to get me from 0 - 100000000 when my h would tell me i would be ok that he would see to it. Even now it can make me angry i would always reply of course i will be but not because of anything he would do.

Have you guys read the thread david wrote about a little girl wasn't it beautiful

[jo71]

Oh yes, the old "You're going to come out ok (because if you don't I might feel guilty)" bit. Yep, heard that before too. You're like, "ohhh...yeah, you're right, duh, why didn't I think of that, I will be ok, thanks hun". lol

Hey jo do you think there is any chance your h will come round and a divorce can be avoided?
Nope. None whatsoever. I've come to terms with it though...so I'm dealing w/ it.

I have had to tell her that i felt unable to accept them if she did not get h any as i felt it would put stress on an already precarious relationship (do you think i did right)

You do whatever you think may help your relationship CB. However, I think that your h should step in and talk to his mother about that and not make you have to take the uncomfortable "middleman" position. Mothers (grandmothers) sometimes get a little too involved in these things...but they usually mean well. Hopefully this won't be a typical situation after the baby is born...you might need to set some boundaries!

Jo

[jo71]

I am feeling a lot of guilt today. I should have realized how unhappy my h was in our marriage. I had 17 yrs with him, I knew him well enough to be able to recognize that. I think maybe I just was in denial about how things were going. I think of it like this....say you get a sore on your foot. You think, "Ok, there's a sore there, but my body is designed to heal this sore on it's own, so I'm just going to turn my head the other way until my body has healed it, and then everything will be fine again." So you go about your life for a little while, and a few weeks later, you look at it again, and the sore is still there, maybe even a little bigger. You think maybe you should go to the doctor, but you're so busy dealing with everything else in your life, you just keep putting it off...you don't dress the wound, you just put on your shoes and socks so you don't have to look at it, and keep hoping that it will get better on its own. A few weeks later, you check it again, and sure enough, it's gotten so big and infected, that you rush to the hospital to be told that your foot now has to be amputated...if only you hadn't turned a blind eye to it sooner, you could have healed it when it first started.

I know this is a cheesy analogy, but it helps to explain how I'm feeling today. I read an email that my h sent to his mother (I'm sneaky...it's bad I know) that told her he was happier than he has been in a long time. I'm so hurt by that. Not by him telling her that, but for the fact that I didn't realize how unhappy I had made him. I almost don't blame him for leaving me. I still stand by the fact that he should have addressed the issue before it got to the point that he didn't even want to try anymore...but I can't help but feel like...how did I NOT KNOW how bad it was.

Bummer day...I wish my h would change his email password so I wouldn't have the temptation to read his emails. Fortunately, this is an email address that he doesn't use often...only his family uses it to email him.

Jo

[Coffeebean]

jo this is not your fault there are many things your h could have do to address the sore not just you why is it that men do not address situations and talk to us. I know this is a bad time for you and i hope you are feeling a little stronger about things today. its really hard not to read emails and text messages when you know you can and they always hurt don't they. There are many things your h could have done rather than leave it was his choice not to take any of the other options but the easiest one.

[jo71]

Thanks CB. Feeling a bit better today I guess. The thing is, I don't get how he could feel like this is the easier way. Logically, this is the most difficult thing he could have chosen...not just for me, but for him, our kids, our extended families, our friends...everyone and everything connected to us has now suffered to some degree because of this. For him to feel like all of this is worth it (him giving up everything he has worked for), just sends such a strong signal to me that I was a horrible person to live with. And the thing is, I know I'm a good person...I have so many good qualities that I'm sure he loved...so the things about me that he didn't like must have been huge to outweigh everything else. Susi told me to put the shoe on the other foot...if it had been me that had been unhappy, would I have left him? Of course not...I was way too committed to our marriage. So I know there were other options that he chose to pass on...I just don't understand why this option appealed so much more to him. And we're past discussing it now...it's like beating a dead horse...so I probably will never get an answer to that.

[David H]

For him to feel like all of this is worth it (him giving up everything he has worked for), just sends such a strong signal to me that I was a horrible person to live with. And the thing is, I know I'm a good person......I just don't understand why this option appealed so much more to him. And we're past discussing it now...it's like beating a dead horse...so I probably will never get an answer to that.

Sometimes there seems to be a simple reality that, no matter what the circumstances, no matter who did what, who said what; what you might do, how hard you might try; that the relationship has simply run it's course and has nowhere to go...

You can't make somebody love you, can't make somebody want you, can't make somebody be where they don't want to be, do what they don't want to do...

Been there, done all that -- as we all have in one way or another

(((jo71)))

David

[callow]

For him to feel like all of this is worth it (him giving up everything he has worked for), just sends such a strong signal to me that I was a horrible person to live with.


Hi Jo

I feel the same way about this.

For it is because for me to leave the marriage things would need to be so bad. I then project my feelings on to him and assume he has the same standards as me. However that is not the case. Things were not so bad. Yes, we were in a rut, but it could have been fixed or at least we could have tried to fix it.

Jo, you know that you are a good person. The problem is with the person that leaves. They are the one who is not feeling good. That is why often they choose a new partner that is well below their standards. It is what they feel they deserve.

The whole situation is so complex. In the end we just have to concentrate on ourselves, as we are the only person we can really help.

Sally

[jo71]

that the relationship has simply run it's course and has nowhere to go...
That is pretty much what my h said to me when I had originally asked him to just stay and we could work on it. He said that there's just nothing left to work on.


You can't make somebody love you, can't make somebody want you, can't make somebody be where they don't want to be, do what they don't want to do...
I guess what is so hard for me to get through my head is trying to accept how he went from appearing to be madly in love with me for 17 years (you know, that mushy kind of love where they can't seem to get enough of you...can't keep their hands off you) to completely out of love with me in a matter of weeks. He says it wasn't weeks...he says it's been almost a year that he's been losing love for me...but he sure didn't act like it. Just at Christmas, we were all over each other with affection...happy. Guess it's the MLC that took over.

I know that I have to accept that our m is ending. And I know that I will accept it. I'll just be so glad when the day comes that, even though I may not understand the why's, I'll still be able to be content with the way things are.

Thanks for the advice and the hug David. :)

Jo

[jo71]

Yes, we were in a rut, but it could have been fixed or at least we could have tried to fix it.
Sally, this is so exactly how I feel. I thought it was just a rut too. We had been in a rut before, and we worked it out...I guess I thought that this one would work out also.

That is why often they choose a new partner that is well below their standards. It is what they feel they deserve.
Wow...I don't want to get into bashing the o/w here, but the things that I know about her (through my h's cousin, who knows her, and through her myspace page), she is very much below his standards. Without going into details, she seems to be a woman with no sense of direction or purpose in her life...a real party girl. I've had such a hard time understanding what he sees in her. I'm trying to not focus on her though...I know that if it hadn't been her, eventually, it would have been somebody else. He was just looking for anyone (or anything) to make him feel alive again...and she was just in the right place at the right time.

Jo

[Helen_uk]

Hi Jo

it's the not knowing the full picture that gets to me most, Steve refuses to talk to me, so my whole planned future has been wiped out because of a woman I sold a dog to ! He has said nothing , he's contacted me just once, to ask for money and that's it.

His stuff is bagged up and in the shed and I haven't a clue what he wants doing with it. I don't know where he is and yes I know it's no longer any of my business, after 5 years of having him at the centre of my world, it's hard to let go and not think about it.

I refuse to contact him, for 2 reasons, firstly I did nothing wrong and secondly there is no point. He could be anywhere with anyone and it's none of my business.
We weren't married, we have no kids , no ties so it's even easier for him to walk away.

One sad thing, I had an accident, slipped off the step, I have sjogrens syndrome which affects my joints,I started to bleed and yesterday the hospital informed me I am no longer pregnant. I don't know whether to be upset or relieved.

I can understand how you feel Jo,it's incomprehensible how someone who you have done nothing but love can switch their feelings off in this way.But it's a fact that they can and do. I've often told people on here that time will help and to keep busy and try not to think too much and I'm trying to follow my own advice.

It's so much harder for you because you have children with him. You will always have to have contact and that makes it harder to move on. When I saw Steve the other night to ask him for the money for the bill, my whole body wanted to throw myself at him and beg and plead and cry for him to come back. I didn't, but I wanted to. I will probably only see him once more when he collects the rest of his stuff, you will have to have regular contact with your h. I don't know right at this moment, which is easier, seeing him, or knowing I never will again.

Good luck Jo.

Love

Helen xx

[jo71]

(((HELEN)))
I'm so sorry about the baby. But I am a firm believer that everything that happens has a reason and a purpose, and maybe this was the best thing...I'm sure you know that your h is NOT who you need to be bringing a child into this world with right now. You and any future children of yours deserve the very best in a husband and a father. How about you though...are you ok after such a bad fall? What a whirlwind of emotions to be going through right now...your h should be ashamed of how he has affected you. I know what you mean though...I don't know if I'm glad that I have contact w/ my husband or not. Right now, honestly, I'm sort of glad to be able to still have that connection...although, I know I'd be so much better off if I didn't. If it weren't for the kids, he would have been long gone and I would have been so much better able to move on with my own life. But you have that opportunity now Helen, and I think you really need to embrace it. It hurts like hell, I know that...but you know that with him out of your life, you'll be able to hurt less and less each day.
I'll be thinking and praying about you hun. We're going to come through this ok...it's going to be a long hard road, but all will be well soon.
Jo

[jo71]

I forgot to tell you guys something kind of cool that happened to me a couple of nights ago. First time in 17 years, I went out with a group of friends (and friends of friends, etc.) for drinks after work. I had a lot of fun! It was weird not having to ask permission, or check in...although I did call my kids a couple of times to make sure they were ok. But the even weirder part was that I really seemed to have the attention of 3 different guys there that I hadn't met before. They were all flirting in such an obvious way...I almost didn't know how to act. One of them asked if I was married. I said, well, yes...but um...I'm actually in the middle of a divorce right now. And it was so funny, after that point, they were clamoring to have conversations with me the rest of the night. lol I probably came across as "one of the guys" because I swear, I think I have forgotten how to flirt! lol But it was just so weird to me...although a wonderful boost to my self-esteem!...and I have been needing that a lot lately! :)

Love,
Jo

[Helen_uk]

Fantastic Jo

It's great when someone makes you feel like a woman again instead of just mum or wife . I'm sure you'll soon pick up the flirting thing again, just need a bit of practice lol.

Sounds like you have a full weekend , have a great time.

Love
Helen xx

[Anne22]

Wow Jo - good for you - bet that gave you such a lift!!! Boy could I use a little boost to my self-esteem at the moment!! My counsellor cant believe I have survived so long without love and attention!!! I am truely lost in that arena!!!!

I have been with my h for over 25 years now 20 married this year - but know will not make that anniversary - have never had another man in my life and just wouldnt know where to start!!! Not sure I could for a very long time - certainly cant even think about trusting another man at the mo!!!!

I envy your weekend while I play happy families with my in-laws!!!!

Take care

Anne 22 xx

[David H]

I know that if it hadn't been her, eventually, it would have been somebody else. He was just looking for anyone (or anything) to make him feel alive again...and she was just in the right place at the right time. Jo

Classic MLC fog/behaviour. My (ex)-G/F just the same...

David