Make love to your wife or masturbate ??? my husband prefers the later choice

[nessievan]

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[Raymond]

It sounds like he is addicted to the practice you mentioned not to mention the porn. No all men do not do this. If I did it I know that it would be taking away from the intimacy I enjoy with my wife unless I was thinking of her, but if she is available what's the point.

The spirit behind male masturbation does not want intercourse. Believe me on this. It's wrapped up in itself and probably porn. I'm not talking about the odd misdemeanor that single males get involved in, but surely all that should finish upon marriage.

Who knows what images are in his mind when doing it. It is a very boring thing to do without the images, so porn is playing a part.

I think he should make an effort to relate to you in every way including physically, get counseling and finish these practices that you are not even part of.

Raymond

[isthisworthit?]

Hi there, and sorry to hear that you are having problems. Like yourself, we only managed to sort out our problems this time last year, and again they are rearing their ugly heads (in my case these heads are real) but back to your problems.
I have read somewhere that where a man is used to masturbation and it has been going on a long time, he finds it difficult to come to climax through sex alone as the amount of pressure and friction is not enough, having got used to the greater effect of masturbation. - Does this make sense? I think your husband will need a lot of weaning off masturbation in order to climax just with sex, and will probably need counselling help as there is often a deep rooted reason.
Hope this helps.

[Rex]

I hurt when I hear of your situation.

Perhaps your husband is so accustomed to masturbation that he doesn't want to complete the full act with you. When my wife and I first married 8 years ago, she complained about the "mess" that sex caused. I would often feel badly about that and not want to finish the entire act with her. I would offer to wear condoms to prevent the messiness but she was not in favor of that. Although in the back of my mind, I always felt that sex was supposed to be that way. She has not complained about it recently which helps me relax and enjoy finishing.

I would suggest that you and your husband seek out some counseling to work through the issues. You mentioned that he is not easy to talk to so a third-party who is neutral would possibly help. In the meantime, I would just convey to him how you would prefer for him to finish with you vs. masturbation and how important it is to you.

My best regards to you toward a resolution.

[ElizStan]

I have been married 27 years - and for most of our marriage sex has been sporadic. Over the last 10 years we've probably made love no more than 4 times. We normally go for 2-3 years without sex. My husband has always worked long hours at our business, staying late most nights. He'd use so many excuses over the years - he was too tired, etc.

Earlier in our marriage he would want oral sex (never returning the favor) because he said he was too tired for intercourse. Then I got tired of one-sided sex (he's never ever given me an orgasm or even tried) and stopped jacking him off or giving him oral. When we did have intercourse, he would withdraw after about 5 minutes and want to finish off by hand. I begged for him to use a condom so I could feel him finish inside of me, but he said he didn't like the feel.

18 months ago while going through a credit card statement looking for something I'd charged, I noticed items I didn't recognize. I dug back 5 years and found out that he'd spent AT LEAST $11,000 on porn during that time. I realized that he'd stay at work and masturbate to porn. I left him, but came back to him after he promised to go to counseling. He asked me to be patient with him. He read books on sexual addiction and went to a therapist for about 4 months. He said he did not want to sully our love by bringing that side of him into a relationship. He has cut all sexual feelings for me off because he can only be aroused by porn. We still haven't made love and I have caught him masturbating to porn again after assuring me everything was "better". I am 50 years old and still have very strong sexual feelings - the thought of being in a celibate marriage for the rest of my life fills me with dread. But it's so difficult to break with a man you've loved for 29 years......I don't feel that he will ever change - if my leaving him this year for 6 weeks (he was devastated) was not motivation enough to work on this, I don't know what is. But it's such a hard decision.

[Ageing Grace]

I'm completely ignorant of this situation but I have a genuine question.

Supposing a man with the habit, as you've described in your posts, wants to regain (or gain for the first time) his enjoyment of full sex - would it be helpful for his wife to forget about penetrative sex for a while, and engage in mutual masturbation? I realise you'd probably have to teach him how to return the favour, and I'm sure some of you have tried.

I'm thinking it's not so different from the way adolescent boys behave, and maybe 'heavy petting' is the way forward, as it is for teenagers.

I'd value your take :)
Thank you,
AG

[Raymond]

The porn and the MB are the problems here. Nothing you do in the bedroom will help while this is going on. It is really mental adultery. You are competing with all these images in his head. His normal sexual drive has been diverted into this stuff. This is serious business these days. I have read in the telegraph that in the USA nearly 50% of divorces involve porn. I shouldn't think it is that much different in the UK.

Your husband is surely addicted and needs help. He has to want it with all his heart though and accept that it is not right what he is doing. The only anwers I have heard of are through Christ with specialised christian counseling. There may be others but I haven't heard of them.

If any wife is reading this and suspects her husband of using porn confront it straight away. It will be a deadly enemy of the intimacy you should enjoy in the bedroom.

Raymond

[1aokgal]

ElizStan....

I hold no optimism for your situation. I am in a long term marriage with a man I still love.
The last time was 16 years ago this month. It is an anniversary of goodbye to my life as a wife. Counselling for a short time did no good, anger, threats, tears and many long talks through the years and my life has pretty much passed me by.

I also had two really great opportunities within the last few months to proceed into a double life with two really fine men. You would not believe that both approached me on a day I was in jeans, tennis shoes, long hair pulled back in a band and no makeup. That must be a winner look for me. I am called "girlish" by my husband.

Perhaps I have grown used to my life. There is truth that when one stays with a rejecting spouse we enable the pattern.

My husband brought me a beautiful diamond heart pendant when he came the few days for Xmas. I will be alone New Years as usual. He loves my being here. No, he has no wife somewhere else. It might have been better to change the locks and pull in the welcome mat and find some real life but time has passed for that.

[Raymond]

Happy New Year 1Okgal!

Raymond

[1aokgal]

Happy New Year, Raymond....


Happy New Year to you and yours. Thanks for all the help you give troubled people and your kindness here is most appreciated.

I carried out the trash at midnight BUT I am excited about another year and the chance we all have to make changes in ourselves and help another where we can.

Wish we here could meet in the flesh and pat backs as the world could use more wisdom and kindness. There are many here who share some profound truths.
God bless.

[1aokgal]

Happy New Year to my dear friend here, Bambar.
I think she monitors but does not post lately. I hope things are better for you and the coming year brings blessings.

I often think of you and how your observations and keen wit are such a breath of fresh air.
Love to you
1AOKGAL

[MarkTwain]

I have written a lot on other forums about this subject. Basically men are wired differently to women. Once a man has ejaculated, he loses all interest in sex for a while. even though he can get another erection quite quickly, he would not enjoy sex all that much if he is over 25 until half a day to two days have elapsed.

When men jerk off to porn, it's the ejaculation that robs his wife of her dues. If you can stop a man wasting his seed in this way, he will eventually get horny enough to start desiring his wife.

I think women in this situation need to get their men to stop all solo ejaculations. If the men continue, they are just being selfish.

[1aokgal]

Dear All...
This practice is an ADDICTION as baffling as alcoholism. There is always fantasy involved and porn, either directly, or indirectly. The longer the pattern is set the harder it is to find the way back to real life.

This is a relationshop problem wheeby the man does not have to extend himself for another to meet her needs. He has no fear of failure as in intercourse. When a man gratifies himself so much and then tries to have intercourse he will generally have ED problems. He has more physical sensation meeting his own needs.

The physical sensation is not the same for the man and the fear of failure causes impotency. The time in between attempts extends. The man LIKES the masturbation better than intercourse where he has to meet the womans' needs. It is not about additional sexual gratification, it replaces normal sex.

Ask me, I know. My husband has had no intercourse for 16 years in this marriage.
If you want to have sex, buy a vibrater, find a lover, or get rid of him.

[MarkTwain]

1aokgal-

I agree with your analysis.

Did your husbands last few attempts with you end in failure/ED?

[Ageing Grace]

What's ED?
oh ... erectile dysfunction?

[Raymond]

I agree with 1okgal analysis. We have been over this many times on here and seem to have reached a sort of consensus on it.

It goes far beyond the man just Oing by himself then not wanting IC. Porn and solo MB are killers of the normal sex drive as part of relationship with ones wife. A lot of solo MB will include fantasies of others either through porn or the sheer ability to fantasise which I believe can go into a dangerous area. All these things have the effect of seperating yourself sexually and even relationally from your wife. Mental adultery in short.

This is a true story believe it or not just for your ears. A man and wife were in a marriage where the husband preferred his fantasies and pleasing himself. Quite often in these fantasies he would see a young blonde girl of about five years (I think spiritual things are involved here hence the danger). On this day the girl was in his fantasies again. He then went downstairs and was surprised to see the actual girl of the fantasy. He ended up molesting her. She had been left with the couple to look after by her trusted parents. His wife discovered him and called the police. The man was arrested protesting that he had never molested children before, (although the seeds were obviously there in his fantasies).

This is an extreme case but it underlines what can happen in the realm of fantasy where it can be more than meets the eye.

Names have not been given here, but the couple came for help at a much later date to a certain ministry I know about and this is part of what happened.

Raymond

[MarkTwain]

Raymond-

That story is a little over the top, in that most people would not do something so immoral or break the law due to a fantasy.

Most fantasies are never acted out, much to the annoyance of many a husband. For instance many women say they never fantasize, yet under closer questioning they do. A sexual daydream is a fantasy for instance, and most women will admit to that.

but going back to your story, any man who prefers his own hand over his willing wife has serious problems. It happens, and this forum is full of it, but I would not say it is a high percentage of all marriages.

In fact, I would love to know the percentage...

[Raymond]

Trouble is it is not a story Mark. It is true even if it is extreme. It may be true that most fantasies stay fantasies but you cannot always be sure if the opportunity presented itself. With the solo MB as well it is mental adultery in my book.

I don't know about % but I do know that porn figures in 50% of divorces in the US.

Raymond

[ard061106]

I am a 28 year old married woman living in London. I am not from the Uk, I moved here from the US to be with my husband, giving up my job and new apartment in the name of compromising and in what worked for both of us at the time. It was difficult for me to adjust here, especially since I am studying and lost my job 6 months ago. I have noticed that my husband was very distant for the past 4 months. We hardly make love/sex nowadays, when we use to have passionate sex on average 4-6 times a week. It is now down to 3 - 5 times a month. However, now there is no passion, just sex...physical sex. I went through a very dark phase in my live lately, feeling down, insecure, a failure , etc. My husband noticed this in me and tried to help. I told him how I felt a week ago about how I feel that every time we are in bed, it's very physical..as if I was a piece of meat. I questioned myself if I was not attractive enough anymore, if I let myself go and this took a real stab at my self esteem. Yesterday, I woke up earlier than expected and cought my husband masturbating while watching porn online. I felt like my heart was stabbed with a thousand knives. I took a pair of PJ's and stayed at the nearest hotel. He said that he has a problem, an addiction and that he's going to get help. He made several calls to get help today and I am sure he will try to get the help he needs. However, I don't feel like I can stay married to him anymore because of what he has done. He saw me going through depression and I begged him to let me know what was going on, which he put the blame on his stress at the time. I want out. He's begging me to stay with him. I just feel like he will put me through so much more in the future and I have lost trust in him. I know he hasn't slept with another woman but I still feel betrayed. I could be talking out of anger, but I would really like to know if there are other women out there that I can get advice from and share stories because I don't have anyone to talk to.

[lucyjuice]

You know I was in a similar situation, and guess what I beat him at his own game... I researched some sites and found one, that suited my needs.

Since then I haven't regretted it and actually now my hubby needs me more so using affairs sites like loveisthebug et al, can actually save relationships too.

And girls, not every guy wants sex, sometimes they just need a friend and a coffee!

[Raymond]

Ard I sympathise with you. You are very perceptive. You knew something was wrong even before you found out. Porn is mental adultery and does affect a marriage and the sexual intimacy within it. It is completely understandable how you feel.

Is he able to overcome this? He might be able to, but until he is able to it is like you having sex with other women partaking as well. They will be in his head as well and causing him not to be sensitive to you.

If you cannot live with this it is your prerogative to exit the marriage. If he hates it enough he can overcome it, although with some it has entered an addiction state and needs drastic action.

Raymond

[ard061106]

Thank you Raymond.

I found out that he has this ‘urge’ and then he masturbates rather than coming to me. He explained to me that it makes him feel like he is away from all the stress around him. Life has been difficult lately, especially financially. So I understand that part of it. However, he also explained to me that when he masturbates (he calls it ‘having a moment’) he does it in a very sexual way, without any emotions and that’s why he doesn’t want to bring this in bed. So the best way of avoiding treating me like some meat was by not having sex with me at all. I too noticed that we were not making love anymore ( about 6 months now) and told him how I felt about it two weeks ago and that I don’t feel loved and that I am being pushed away. And of course at this point I asked myself if I let myself go (gained 5 lbs only though), if I couldn’t please him anymore and basically blamed myself for him not wanting me anymore. His response to this was that he is so stressed, that I should not blame myself and that it will get better. I had asked him if he was taking care of himself and he acted so shocked that I would ask such a thing and said he wasn’t and couldn’t even think about sex because of the stress at work and at home. In the past, when we were engaged and not living together and as a married couple, we would tell each other when we ‘had a moment’, as he calls it, and tell the other that their were on our mind.

Now, he has told me that he it addicted to masturbating and that he has done this while watching porn about five times. He also told me that he doesn’t feel better after he is done and that he does this about 5 times a week and max of 3 times a day.

He made an appointment to speak to someone about this today and I went with him and waited in the waiting room. As I waited, trying to read a magazine, I felt like a friend, not like a wife. I don’t know how to explain how I feel anymore. I want to stay with him because I know he loves me, use to go crazy over me, but there is a big part of me that believes he will hurt me again and it will only get worse. A pessimist, some would say, but, I also need to start loving myself again.

It hurts me to think that he saw me going through depression the last couple of months, he even told me that he thinks I am depressed and he did nothing to help. I felt like I was in a black grave like hole, trying to climb out but didn’t have the physical and mental strength. After our talk I mentioned earlier, I forced myself to get out of bed, go for a walk, call friends, etc…and now I have fallen in a deeper whole. He saw me suffer and didn’t confess that our marriage problems had nothing to do with me. Nor did he give me a reason why the sex in our marriage was not the same and why he didn’t desire me anymore. A part of me has died. I believed in love and in wedding vows and that a man can be faithful. My father and mother have a very healthy relationship, I too thought that I deserve a person to love me back as much as I love them and not all men are unfaithful.

God I wrote so much. Sorry for boring you death.

Once again, thank you for listening and for your feedback. Greatly appreciated.

[Raymond]

You are not boring me Ard. Your comments are very valid. Also you musn't blame yourself as the problem is in him not you. Men are under temptation in this way in this era but if there is no resistance havoc can be reaped in a marriage. In the USA porn figures in 50% of divorces. It is probably not much different in the UK. It is basically a sexual unfaithfulness.

There is obviously a diversion of the sexual drive going on which is affecting the intimacy you should have. It is not just a diversion it is a kind of mental adultery, which is the damaging part. Jesus said if one looks at another woman to lust after her you have already committed adultery with her in your heart. Sex is that important and only belongs in the marriage between the husband and wife.

With regard to MB it is not so much the act but what is in the mind when doing it. If the mind is filled with fantasies of other women that can be damaging and addictive and obviously affect the marital intimacy.

At least he is trying to get help with this. It will be a fight if he is addicted and he needs to uderstand what is going on and how it robs you both of the real intimacy you should both have.

It must be awful for you to be dragged though this Ard but we live in an age when porn is available at the touch of a button and many are allowing themselves to become addicted. Some make light of it but I feel they do not understand the implications and the damage it can do to ones sexual make-up. If he could really understand that he will have more motivation for knocking it on the head. If he won't fight I don't know how you can live with this stuff.

Raymond

[elizabethissad]

I just found this site today and i am still trying to figure out how it works. I am sooo glad that i am not alone even though i very much feel like it. I have been married for 12 years and I love my husband very much. Call me stupid for staying after all of this time. I feel like i have lost a part of my self through the years as my husband prefers masturbation over me. I feel like i am losing my mind sometimes. I am always wondering what he is doing. I feel like I cant live like this anymore. We also have 3 children. I have always hoped that things would get better but thet havent. Sometimes we go 3 months 6 months or even a years without sex. what do i do? i am so lost today?

****

[Raymond]

Is there porn involved in this Elizabeth or is it just mb on it's own? It may be that he came into marriage with this habit and cannot beat it. The main problem is what is happening in his head? Is he fantasising about other women? Some can have pretty strong imaginations. It is a kind of mental adultery if that is happening. He almost certainly is imagining other women as he does it. If he could see it as mental adultery there is hope. At the very least he is denying you the marriage rights you should expect in marriage.

Raymond

[ard061106]

Hi Raymond. I just want to thank you for your help in a difficult time in my life.

I had a wonderful, best in my life Valentine’s Day this year…My husband went to a S.A.A meeting for the first time to admit to his addiction. I hope you sensed the sarcasm of this being the best Valentines. Anyhow, I went with him and waited with a frozen cup of coffee that was not even once sipped while I tried to read my book wondering what the person I married was confessing to. The thought made me nauseous. An hour later, a man that appeared to have less weight on his shoulders and a huge smile walked towards me and hugged me for a good 15 minutes.

We had dinner while he told me things that he wanted to share with me, things that he tried to forget, he was robbed of his innocence when he was 13 years old. It broke my heart to hear how he was treated by an adult at such a young age.

We are truly trying to work things out while he goes to therapy and to the SAA meetings. The one thing I now know is that he is trying so hard to become a better man and that I will be there for him all the way. I envy his courage, as most people that have been sexually molested do not have the courage or strength to tell anyone, let alone seek help.

As for me, I am learning to love myself by taking care of myself and plan to go through counselling.

I hope that God gives me and anyone out there who’s going through a difficult time, the strength that is needed.

Once again, thank you. God bless.

[Raymond]

That's really great Ard. You are one of the few that has ended up with a positive. It will be a battle as you know, but you can make it with His help.

Raymond

[nw_guy]

Ladies, It is not just men that lose their sex drive.

[brokenheartedfromPA]

Dear Elizabethissad

Like you, I am just so glad to have found other women who are going through the same thing. My husband and I have only been married for 6 years, but we've been having problems with him looking at porn and masturbating and counseling since we were only newlyweds. I asked him why, and his answer was that he was simply not attracted to me anymore. After counceling and many tears he aparently now really loves me and finds me very attractive. To be honest with you, I don't believe him. I don't know if I ever will again.

I explained to him then that it really hurt me. Not because he was masturbating, but because he was sneaking around behind my back and refusing to have sex with me. To me it's like having an affair and breaking my trust. I felt so horrible when family and friends would make comments about our newlywed status and how we're probably going at it like rabbits...haha, but to me it was no joke. At that point we would go a month sometimes 2 without sex. Now it's usually 3-5 months of no sex. I am thinking there might be something wrong with me. Maybe I'm oversexed or something, because I keep asking as he's always so rude when he denies me.

Then, about 6 months ago I borrowed his car to go to the store and when the radio switched on, I heard these girls breathing and talking about sex and how hot they get. He was listening to porn over the radio.

It broke my heart. I moved to be with him from a different country. Left all my family and friends behind, because I truly believed that I would never find another man that would love me as much as he loves me.

His latest thing was last week. I've just had a feeling that he's been masturbating again behind my back. I guess because I've come to expect a fallout every 6 months or so.
Here he starts rambling on and on about he just had a wet dream. Then he starts saying it's not like he does it ALL the time. Usually just now and then in the shower before he goes to work in the mornings. It just hurts sooo much!! The fact that he would choose self gratification, when he knows I would love to have sex with him. I feel so betrayed and stupid for believing him everytime he apologizes and say he'll never do it again. Then a month or so later he just does it again.
I asked him why he was doing it when he knew how much it hurt me, and he said that the physical pleasure overrides his guilt. So he choses physical pleasure over our marriage and my love for him??!! I just can't stop crying.
I'm 6 months pregnant and actually started having some contractions while I was crying.

If I was just pregnant and did not have any other children with him, I would have left that afternoon I found out and just mailed him the divorce papers.
Unfortunately we have two beautiful boys besides the one that I'm expecting. The one is 18 months and the other one is 3 1/2years old. They absolutely adore their dad, especially the 3 1/2 year old.

I just can't take the emotional pain anymore. I'm only 29 years old, but I feel like I'm 50! Shouldn't this be the best years of our marriage? I'm not expecting moonshine and roses, but a little more passion and love than this, right? He's only 26?

I'm just so sad that my life turned out this way. I never wanted to get married, because of this reason. Because so many guys just don't care. Their excuse for everything is, well that's just how guys are.
Really? Are all guys just like this? My husband's father isn't? His mother would be shocked and hurt if she knew how he treated his wife. So, why does he think it's okay?

At this point I don't know whether I should give him yet another chance. I just never thought I'd ever get married. I'm a very strong Christian and do not believe in divorce unless there has been numerous cheating or abuse.

Technically it's not really adultery if he's not actually having sex with another woman, so everybody keeps telling me.

In the Bible God says that if a man so much as desire another woman other than his wife, he is committing adultery.

He doesn't come to church with me and the boys either. It's just all becoming so painful and overwhelming.

[Raymond]

I always say it is a kind of mental adultery BrokenHearted. You were quoting Jesus words when he said that if anyone looks at a woman to lust after her he has already committed adultery with her in his heart. That is what is happening in pornography and many times the MB because of what the mind fixes itself on when it happens. We have been over this subject quite a lot in the past.

No there is nothing wrong with you BH. He probably came into the marriage with the habit. It will rob you of the intimacy you should have as it is a misdirection of the sex drive and will affect the sex even when it happens because of it. When he feels like sex his mind will be filled with these images he remembers from the porn and he will seek it again or maybe just remember the images while he MB.

It is good that you are in a church. That will help a lot if you have pastors who know how to deal with this. He will have a battle to win to be free of it but he will have to face the truth of it to start. No all men do not do it. I know it would detrimentally affect my sex life if I did. It's husbands love your wives not some porn image.

You have to confront it which you have. All I can say is that he can get free if he wants to with all his heart. He will need that commitment to do it. It would help if he is a believer as God can work on his concience as He does. Saying all men do it is a bit of a cop out. He needs to get beyond that.

Raymond

[bouk]

Maybe he is not enjoy make love anymore. That's why he prefer to masturbate.

[kyle82]

there are few times where masturbation or self pleasure is what we men, are looking for. but not in addiction or a form of disrespect with the partner. it's unethical to actually masturbate while your partner is right there beside and super horny.

[Totally-Relating]

I have been married 27 years - and for most of our marriage sex has been sporadic. Over the last 10 years we've probably made love no more than 4 times. We normally go for 2-3 years without sex. My husband has always worked long hours at our business, staying late most nights. He'd use so many excuses over the years - he was too tired, etc.

Earlier in our marriage he would want oral sex (never returning the favor) because he said he was too tired for intercourse. Then I got tired of one-sided sex (he's never ever given me an orgasm or even tried) and stopped jacking him off or giving him oral. When we did have intercourse, he would withdraw after about 5 minutes and want to finish off by hand. I begged for him to use a condom so I could feel him finish inside of me, but he said he didn't like the feel.

18 months ago while going through a credit card statement looking for something I'd charged, I noticed items I didn't recognize. I dug back 5 years and found out that he'd spent AT LEAST $11,000 on porn during that time. I realized that he'd stay at work and masturbate to porn. I left him, but came back to him after he promised to go to counseling. He asked me to be patient with him. He read books on sexual addiction and went to a therapist for about 4 months. He said he did not want to sully our love by bringing that side of him into a relationship. He has cut all sexual feelings for me off because he can only be aroused by porn. We still haven't made love and I have caught him masturbating to porn again after assuring me everything was "better". I am 50 years old and still have very strong sexual feelings - the thought of being in a celibate marriage for the rest of my life fills me with dread. But it's so difficult to break with a man you've loved for 29 years......I don't feel that he will ever change - if my leaving him this year for 6 weeks (he was devastated) was not motivation enough to work on this, I don't know what is. But it's such a hard decision.


Wow..You just described what I had been going throw the last 4 years of my marriage. I have been married 10 years. I had been asking my husband over and over what was wrong. He kept telling me nothing. I finally found porn on the computers, and confronted him. Exactly the same exact things you described happened to me, I was ready to leave, couldnt stand not having a sex life, and he always said he was tired, excepted the oral for himself, but never returned anything, or couldnt "arise" for intercourse. He says he has stopped, and things have improved but I dont know if I can trust that this is the end with out some kind of counseling. It is so helpful to hear your story. Thank you so much for posting it.

[Raymond]

It has to be totally cut off TR and any sexual relationship mentally or physically should only be with you, as it should be. It seems he is trying which is more than can be said for some. It is a kind of mental adultery and that is why the affects of it can be devastating.

It will take time for the addiction to loose it's hold and he cannot afford to indulge it for one minute as that can be back to square one in no time. There is no substitute for sexual faithfulness.

These things are massive struggles and many marriages have been wrecked through it. In the USA 50% of all divorces feature porn. I should not think the number is much different in the UK.

I really hope he gets the victory here for both your sakes. He needs to really continue fighting it though until he has mastery over himself.

Raymond

[Jdoc]

Masturbation is a completely natural thing. Most people start doing it in the first few months of life and do not stop (in one form or another) until they are dead. Porn and erotic entertainment has been a part of society since we first stared painting on cave walls. It might be good to remember that only hearing such a small anecdote about your marital situation, one could come up with countless reasons why he might be masturbating instead of approaching you for sex. With that said, what’s going on with your husband isn’t normal and may require professional help. Withdrawal and masturbation to ‘finish’ is something people engage in, but not to the exclusion of other acts. I’m mostly concerned with the covering of his face during orgasm. It speaks to some serious issues.

[chosen]

Masturbation is a completely natural thing. Most people start doing it in the first few months of life and do not stop (in one form or another) until they are dead. Porn and erotic entertainment has been a part of society since we first stared painting on cave walls. It might be good to remember that only hearing such a small anecdote about your marital situation, one could come up with countless reasons why he might be masturbating instead of approaching you for sex. With that said, what’s going on with your husband isn’t normal and may require professional help. Withdrawal and masturbation to ‘finish’ is something people engage in, but not to the exclusion of other acts. I’m mostly concerned with the covering of his face during orgasm. It speaks to some serious issues.

It maybe something that has been done since man was made, but that doesnt make it right. Most MB is done with porn and porn use is deadly for the person doing it, the spouse and the marriage.If my husband was doing this I would give him an ultimuatum, the porn or me. From what some women have said, when men think they will loose their wives and kids, its amazing how many are actually able to stop.If the wife puts up with it he has no reason to try. it is definetly unfaithfullness, but with many many women and not just one.
It is an incredibly selfish act that excludes the wife, and the intimacy in the marriage is lost, and that is so important.

[Raymond]

Also on the question of MB. It's what is going on in your mind that is the crucial thing. If ones mind is full of lust with images of the opposite sex then the mind is dwelling on those and in that case it is another version of mental adultery.

Raymond

[chosen]

Definately Raymond. If I thought my husband was fantasizing about loads of other women he had seen on the internet when we were having sex I would be devastated. It really is bringing many other women into the marriage bed which is supposed to be kept pure.Its very very sad that so many are into this destructive habit that hurts their spouse so much.

[Raymond]

We think alike on that subject Chosen.

Raymond

[chosen]

Sweetums why on earth should or would a wife want to have sex with a man who has got aroused by looking at porn? Porn is unfaithfullness. The images dont go away, the man is probably thinking about them when he has sex with his wife. Porn and masturbation is totally selfish, out to satisfy yourself with no thought at all of anyone else. Sex with another person is giving as well as taking. Giving and receiving love and pleasure. It is satisfying and good and brings the married couple closer. Bringing in porn, lust, masturbation etc drives them apart and makes sex wrong and damaging. It distorts it from what it is meant to be.

The man needs to concentrate 100% on his own wife,on her body, her emotions and the two of them together. He should be aroused by her and her alone. No one else should be included in anyway, whether is is by looking at mags, looking at porn on the internet, or watching a porn movie. Yes he will get aroused by that, but not by the one person that he needs to be loving and respecting. To watch naked women, and then expect your wife to have sex because these other women have made you horny is incredibly cruel and unloving. There is no way that I would ever accept that in my own marriage, and fortunately my husband would never treat me like that.

God is amazingly wise when it comes to sex. After all, he invented it, One passage in the Bible says "be faithful to the wife of your youth. Let her breasts satisfy you at ALL times". Not other womens breasts, but HERS.

[Raymond]

I agree with that.

Swetums is saying it is alright if you don't ejaculate. Is he saying that one can have erections over other woman's bodies and antics so long as you don't E? I think the damage has been done already when you have been looking at it and lusting. There is a sexual drive there and it is going towards the images and not to one's wife. This is a mental adultery in the heart surely? Sex is more than physical I believe. It is spiritual as well. There is something behind it that can make one an addict. Some men won't touch their wives because of it as their heart has gone to others in the sexual arena. The more you give to porn the more it will destroy your marriage.

Drink water from your own well - share your love only with your wife. Why spill the water of your springs in public, having sex with just anyone? (mentally?) You should reserve it for yourselves. don't share it with strangers. Let your wife be a fountain of blessing for you. Rejoice with the wife of your youth. She is a loving doe, a graceful deer. Let her breasts satisfy you always. May you always be intoxicated with her love. Why be captivated my son with an immoral woman, or embrace the breasts of an adulterous woman. Proverbs 5: 15/20

[newlywed09]

It is so good to read that I am not the only one going through this. Me and my husband were married in 2009 and recently celebrated our one year anniversary. We have talked about that fact that I believe that watching porn is cheating and that if I found out he was watching it that it would be grounds for divorce. I also believe that MB should not be going on AT ALL because in marriage that is how it should be. When me and my husband first married we talked about MB and porn and said he had never done neither and never would. I believed him and we talked about it some more but not a lot.

A few days ago ... Well me and my husband usually wake up at the same time in the morning and we both shower then get ready and leave together. But this particular morning I was going to sleep in a little and he was getting up to take a shower. I then thought I might as well get up. I went into the bathroom and went to open the shower curtain to say something to my husband and I caught him MB. I was so shocked that I just walked out and went back to bed. My husband comes in about 10 min later and asks me why I'm not getting ready. I told him I was going to leave a little later than him. He kept asking me what was wrong. I told him nothing because I didn't feel like talking about it just then. He then left for work and I got ready to leave. When I got to work he text me and asked me what was wrong this morning and I told him that he lied about that stuff that we had talked about. I then asked him about watching porn and he said that he did it all the time and he was sorry and wants to change. He said he has had a problem with it for a while and tried to stop when we got married but couldn't. I believe that if you want ed to you could stop. I also feel like this could lead to more things like actual cheating. So I'm not sure if I wanna stay. I feel so betrayed because of him lying to me. And he looked at porn which I told him I would divorce over. So I don't know what to do now ........

[chosen]

Goodness I am so sorry you must be very upset.Probably the worst thing in my mind is that he lied about the fact that he never did it before you married. So you sort of married under false pretenses. That was very wrong of him.
If he really wants to stop there are all sort of computer blockers that can be installed to stop access to these sites. The computer can be put in a central location in the house so that he cannot hide it.
If he is prepared to stop then are you willing to stay? You could tell him that, but that it must stop or you will seperate, and if he agrees to stop, you can work on this together. Maybe counselling may help, and also putting in place some of the blocking programmes.
I know women who have said its the porn or me, and sometimes that works. Sometimes men wont stop until they HAVE to and are going to loose their families. Maybe the shock of your hurt and reaction today will be anough to show him that he has to stop before it gets any worse.
You two need to talk this out.

[Raymond]

I agree with Chosen. He seems to have the images in his mind judging by his actions. Yes he should have confessed it before you were married, especially as you specifically brought it up.

I think porn can be grounds for divorce but only when the husband is not even trying to stop. Most of it will be from the computer and he needs to co-operate with you regarding what Chosen suggested. It definitely does not go with marriage as all intimacy should be between the husband and wife alone. I would imagine he has a level of addiction by the sound of it so he really needs to mean business.

I feel for you as you have only been married for a year or so and this has been going on from before the marriage. Perhaps getting him to read some of the threads on here will open his eyes as to what is happening.

Well done for confronting him as that is exactly what you need to do. I think you are right in that it could get worse if he doesn't stop and could lead to other things. You need time now as to what you plan to do.

[john45]

me and my wife had the same issue were i wanted to masterbate and not have sex. i couldnt explain why my mood was turing off but we went to counciling for it and westarted to introduce different things like role play,dress up,and spending more time hugging kisses and being spontauis

[walshy2]

Hi, sorry to here your problem or should I say his! It looks to me he has addiction to masturbating to porn. I think you need to have a serious talk with him, and concealing might be the way to go.

Hope you get things sorted.

[Raymond]

What do you mean concealing?

[Gaston]

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[carla]

Hi all

I have come to this site to try and find some answers. We dont make love as often now and I have found that my husband is masturbating, in the shower, before work, when I am not here.

He had an affair 10 years ago, it was a pretty torrid sex thing with a young girl half his age. He did say at the time the sex was amazing!!

A couple of times recently he has called me by her name and I am just wondering if he is mastubating whilst he is fantasizing about her?

I dont think he is playing away again as we are always together , but he is very distant towards me and I dont feel the closeness anymore we used to have.

I do feel betrayed when I know he has been masturbating. I know its a man thing but it feels like I am being cheated on

I am geting to the point where I want to blow this up in the air, have my say and clear off.

I want to be loved and feel loved at the moment I am just watching a looking for clues when he is doing it and I feel this is taking over my life.

I really would appreciate some advice.

[Raymond]

I have heard and read about this before Carla. Some men are capable of fantasising in their minds and doing solo mb with it. I would say it is a form of mental adultery if the fantasies are about others. Do you know if he ever uses porn from the computer? Even if he doesn't this can be quite potent because of his imagination. I think that any sexual fantasies should only be about our wives and not others. That would rule out solo mb as if she is there in flesh and blood what is the point? This is more potent than some realise and can lead to wrong actions in some cases.

The only way around it would be for him to correct his mental habits and not indulge it. It is a diversion of the normal sexual drive and can be addictive. It is hard to get good advice on this as many say it is harmless when it is not. Until he knows it is wrong it will be hard for him to get the motivation to stop. You are not the first to mention this. It has been a feature on the sexless marriage thread.

The problem is that it is all in his head and there is nothing definite to prove so it will just be a case of him being faithful to his conscience and beating the problem.

[chosen]

I Agree with Raymond.
The affair and now this, are deely hurtful to you. Has he properly repented for the affair and done all that he can to gain back your trust? MY family are full of people cheating, including my dad, and my husbands ex did this also and I have seen how destructive it is. Telling you the sex was amazing was also deeply hurtful, incredibly insensitive, and wrong.
I can also understand how hurtful it is also when you are there and he still masturbates.
Its like a rejection. His sexual thoughts and energies should be focused on you and you alone. I do think you need to talk to him about this.

[Raymond]

Reflecting a bit further on this; the fact that he called you by her name Carla by mistake might indicate that he has not repented of the affair and that she could still feature in his sexual fantasies. It seems that he may have a real problem and any indication that it is a man's thing is a cop out from the sexual faithfulness that should be there.

[tammy2011]

Hi everyone. I think this is a growing epidemic and found a scholarly article on this topic. I wanted to share it with everyone. It is written by a Ph.D. in psychology who specializes in Sexual Addiction. He is a professor at UC Berkely and George Washington University etc. In this article, he nails the issues very clearly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Cline
Treatment and Healing of
Sexual and Pornographic Addictions

By Dr. Victor B. Cline

Dr. Victor B. Cline

[Editor's note: In this article, Dr. Cline describes strategies that he has found useful in treating sexual addicts, particularly those addicted to pornography, and that might be helpful to other professionals counseling sexual addicts. Others interested in the nature of sexual addiction may also find it informative.]

In over 25 years I have treated approximately 350 males afflicted with sexual addictions (or sometimes referred to as sexual compulsions). In about 94% of the cases I have found that pornography was a contributor, facilitator or direct causal agent in the acquiring of these sexual illnesses. I note that Patrick Carnes, the leading U.S. researcher in this area, reports similar findings. In his research on nearly 1000 sex addicts, as reported in his Don't Call it Love: Recovery from Sexual Addictions (Bantam Books, 1991): "Among all addicts surveyed 90% of the men and 77% of the women reported pornography as significant to their addiction."

I found that nearly all of my adult sexual addicts' problems started with porn exposure in childhood or adolescence (8 years and older). The typical pattern was exposure to mild porn early with increasing frequency of exposure and eventual later addiction. This was nearly always accompanied by masturbation.

This was followed by an increasing desensitization of the materials' pathology, escalation to increasingly aberrant and varied kinds of materials, and eventually to acting out the sexual fantasies they were exposed to.

Many wives found their husband preferring fantasy sex (they would catch them masturbating to pornography) to making love with their partner. This had devastating effects on the marriage. One wife, in great pain, confronted her husband, "What do you see in those two-dimensional faceless women that I can't give you as a loving wife who is flesh and blood, a real person and committed to you??" The men never had an answer. To some extent they enjoyed sexual relations with their wives but most preferred the fantasy with masturbation because "these women" could do anything and were perfect in form and appearance!

I found that once addicted, whether to just the pornography or the later pattern of sexual acting out, they really lost their "free agency." It was like a drug addiction. And in this case their drug was sex. They could not stop the pattern of their behavior, no matter how high-risk for them it was.

My 25 years' clinical work, as well as frequent reviews of the literature, convince me that at least one avenue leading to the creation of these kinds of addictions is through a process of masturbatory conditioning. The work of R.J. McGuire, et. al ("Sexual Deviation as Conditioned Behavior," Behavior Research & Therapy, 1965: vol. 2, p.185) suggests that exposure to special sexual experiences (which could include pornography), and then masturbating to the fantasy of this exposure, can sometimes later lead to participation in deviant sexual acts.

As McGuire explains it, as a man repeatedly masturbates to a vivid sexual fantasy as his exclusive outlet, the pleasurable experiences endow the fantasy with increasing erotic value. The orgasm experienced then provides the critical reinforcing event for the conditioning of the fantasy preceding or accompanying the act. McGuire indicates that any type of sexual deviation can be acquired in this way, that it may include several unrelated deviations in one individual and that it cannot be eliminated even by massive feelings of guilt.

Other related studies by D.R. Evans ("Masturbatory Fantasy & Sexual Deviation," Behavioral Research & Therapy, 1968: vol.6, p.17) and B.T. Jackson ("A case of Voyeurism Treated by Counter Conditioning," Behavioral Research & Therapy, 1969: vol.7, p.133) support this thesis. They found that deviant masturbatory fantasy very significantly affected the habit strength of the subject's sexual deviation.

In my treatment of hundreds of primarily male patients with sexual pathology (paraphilias) I have consistently found that most men are vulnerable to the effects of masturbatory conditioning to pornography with a consequence of sexual ill health, because we are all subject to the laws of learning with few or no exceptions. In my experience as a sexual therapist, any individual is at risk of becoming, in time, a sexual addict, as well as conditioning himself into having a sexual deviancy and/or disturbing a bonded relationship with a spouse or girlfriend when this occurs.

A frequent side effect is that their capacity to love is also dramatically reduced (e.g. it results in a marked dissociation of sex from friendship, affection, caring and other normal healthy emotions and traits which help marital relationships). This sexual side becomes, in a sense, dehumanized. Many of them develop also an "alien ego state" (or dark side), whose core is antisocial lust devoid of most values. Raw id, in a sense. In time, the "high" obtained from masturbating to pornography becomes more important than real life relationships.

It has been commonly thought by health educators that masturbation has negligible consequences, other than reducing sexual tensions. Moral objections aside, one exception would appear to be in the area of repeatedly masturbating to pornographic imagery, either in memories in the mind or as explicit pornographic stimuli which risks (via conditioning) the acquiring of sexual addictions and/or other sexual pathology. It makes no difference if one is an eminent physician, attorney, minister, athlete, corporate executive, college president, unskilled laborer, or an average 15 year old boy. All can be conditioned into deviancy. The process of masturbatory conditioning is inexorable (impossible to stop or prevent) and does not spontaneously remiss (stop).

The course of this illness may be slow and is nearly always hidden from view. It is usually a secret part of the man's life, and like a cancer, it keeps growing and spreading. It rarely ever reverses itself, and it is also very difficult to treat and heal. Denial on the part of the male addict and refusal to confront the problem are typical and predictable, and this almost always leads to marital or couple disharmony, sometimes divorce, and sometimes the breaking up of other intimate relationships.

One researcher, Stanley Rachman ("Experimentally induced sexual fetishism," The Psychological Record, 1968: vol.18, p.25), demonstrated in the laboratory how sexual deviations could be created in adult male subjects. He was actually able to condition, in two separate experiments, 100% of his male subjects into sexual deviancy (fetishism).

There are many approaches to treatment, which usually involve individual work with a psychotherapist who has skills in treating this kind of illness, plus being put into a 12-step group such as Sexaholics Anonymous. There are no costs to be in such a group, which is patterned after the original A.A. model.

I have personally found the following approach to yield the most successful outcomes for at least the type of patient population which I work with: males 15-70 from mainly middle social class backgrounds, often religious, and motivated to change (because of the threat of divorce, loss of job, prison, etc.).

1. If the patient is married I attempt to have the wife participate in treatment. She has been traumatized repeatedly by the husband's problem and broken promises, and usually has a huge trust issue with him and may be debating divorce. I see them together so that the wife knows everything that goes on in treatment; and we address her fears, depression, the kinds of acting-out, as well as their stressed marriage.

2. In the first interview I have the husband outline the problem and ask him what he wants me to do. He needs to take the initiative in his healing. I then turn to the wife and ask if she has anything to add or correct or if she wants to say what her goals for therapy are. If on the verge of divorce, I determine if she wants out or wants to stay and help.

3. I talk about the importance of the wife being a part of the healing team. It goes faster if both are involved. Both are wounded. Both need help. However, there is one unchangeable rule: NO SECRETS. I tell them that secrets "kill you. They take away your power." They create shame and guilt. And even though there might be some relapses (usually minor) during treatment, these need to be talked about openly in therapy; they are wasting their money if these are not disclosed and worked with. I tell them that most people I know who are kicking the cigarette habit quit 12 times before they really quit. Anything hidden, the spouse always sooner or later finds out about it. So right to begin with: no secrets!

4. I next take a history of the man's exposure to pornography and masturbation to it (or masturbation with no pornography) and sexual acting out. I do this in the wife's presence, which helps her understand more clearly that in some ways her husband was a victim usually starting at an early age. I next inquire about possible sexual abuse or early seduction of the husband as a child or as an adolescent, which have eroticized him prematurely. In taking this history, I start with his first memory of exposure to pornography--what its form was (magazine, video, phone sex, etc.) and if he masturbated to it--and continue with the history up to the day of interview. Then I establish a sobriety date (the date of last exposure) for all the different forms of porn or sexual acting out that he was involved with, as well as the last time he masturbated. At each succeeding visit I recheck these sobriety dates. If there has been relapse then I do relapse prevention work with him, identify triggers that set him off, and seek ways to circumvent these.

5. I next explain to the wife that her husband has lost his free agency. And that's why promises don't work. Good intentions mean nothing. Her husband may mean well and really want to quit because of the terrible painful consequences, but he literally cannot do this by himself yet. He has to have highly specialized help. Most therapists do not know how to treat sexual addictions. Self control and self discipline or a rational approach generally don't change anything. With most people I see who are deeply addicted, prayers and scripture reading are usually not enough to solve the problem even though I believe that God could instantly cure the problem if He so chose. In most cases He lets the individual work it through the long way probably because he will in the future be more likely to resist temptation.

6. I tell both husband and wife about the "wave" which periodically hits the patient and overwhelms him with temptation. This is something most men cannot resist. One of the goals of therapy is to prepare the man to face and defeat the wave. These waves vary in frequency from several times a day to once a year or even less. Between the waves the man feels at peace and has the mistaken notion that he has his power and can resist anything. But this is an illusion and is only temporary until the next wave hits him.

I explain to the couple that as a therapist I'm like a guide to Mount Everest. I can show them how to get there but they have to walk every step of the way. They have to do all the work. I assure them they can heal. But like alcoholics when sober, sexual addicts must be careful not to expose themselves in the future to high-risk situations. I also explain that they are not mentally ill in the classical sense but that they have an addiction which powerfully controls their lives, somewhat like being on crack cocaine. And the journey to freedom will not be easy. It will require an enormous commitment on their part to become whole again.

7. I assign both husband and wife to read Patrick Carnes' book, Out of the Shadows, and Stephen Kramer's book, Worth of a Soul.

8. I have the husband begin attending S.A. (Sexaholics Anonymous) which is a 12-step group, spiritually based...There are chapters in nearly every city in America. They are free. To find where and when one meets, call Alcoholics Anonymous (in all the phone books). They will know. The client-addict may start with a newcomers group first, and then graduate to the step-study group after a few months. Wives that have been badly traumatized by their husband's behavior may wish to attend S-Anon (for spouses of offenders) or even later join with their husbands at their S.A. meetings if allowed. The client-addict needs to attend 90% of his weekly meetings for this to work and be truly healing. If the individual is relapsing at high rates, they may need to attend up to three or four nights a week in order to achieve sobriety and break the stranglehold of their addiction.

9. At these S.A. meetings, they need in time to locate a "sponsor," who is someone who has been sober (no relapses) for a lengthy period of time who they can call (phone) in an emergency, which is an occasion when the wave hits and they are strongly tempted to act out. Their sponsor can help them stay sober; he's like a life guard.

[Editor's note: Some churches and other overtly religious organizations also provide special support groups for sexual addicts. Unlike S.A. groups, these organizations typically approach the problem from a particular religious perspective.]

10. Because the compulsion to act out is so overpowering, I give them a mental set to just stay sober one day at a time. They must think only of making it today. If they focus on a longer time period they may be setting themselves up for failure.

11. Through close interviewing, the addicts must identify triggers which activate the wave (e.g. looking at porn, seeing girls in skimpy clothes, after a fight with their spouse or the spouse being out of town, driving by an adult bookstore, walking into any video store, viewing hard-R or X films, looking at ladies bra and panty ads) and then plan strategies to avoid these or deal with them. Example: if going on a business trip and staying in a hotel with access to porn movies, request the front desk, when checking in, to block out those channels. Call their wives at 9:00 P.M. each evening when away.

12. "Thought-stopping." When the addict is stimulated or aroused by sexual fantasy which can lead to masturbation and the acting out cycle, I tell them that they have only three seconds to block or stop the thought or imagery. At the top of their voice they should yell STOP (or scream silently if others are nearby) and visualize a policeman with handcuffs approaching, holding a big sign with the words STOP on it. This will kick the offending imagery off the mind screen briefly. But then they have to bring to mind an event in their life that has very powerful emotional significance (either positive or negative) which they can ruminate about. In other words, they fight fire with fire, a strong sexual fantasy with another totally different kind of memory, such as the time they helped their team win the game, a surprise birthday party, or even the death of a very close friend. But it must be something powerful emotionally.

13. "Fire drills." I present to them imaginary situations which they might have to face in real life which would expose them to temptation. How would they handle it? I process their responses in great detail so if something like this should happen in real life they would be mentally prepared to deal with it. Example: a friend at work wants to show them his porn. How would they handle it? The wife, of course, is listening to all of this and participating as she chooses.

14. No more masturbation. Stop masturbating. This risks further conditioning into deviancy. The goal of no masturbation may be difficult and not even possible immediately. I have them keep a calendar record of those days when they masturbate and urge them to strive for reducing its frequency but especially, if they do slip, to refrain from fantasizing about deviant sexual imagery. In contrast, I have them imagine loving their spouse. I check their calendar record at each session to determine whether the frequency of masturbation has been reduced, with the ultimate goal of being free of this habit.

15. Marriage counseling. I tell them to do things that will help improve their marital relationship. I give them assignments to have fun together and improve intimacy, take marriage seminars, participate in sports together, be friends, etc.

16. Stress reduction therapy. If they have financial problems, I help them work out solutions or refer them to agencies that can help. If they have out-of-control children, I give them support in dealing with this. Or if the wife suffers greatly, I recommend a program to provide her with a support group and place where she can be nurtured.

17. When relapses occur, I don't "beat them up." I point out that relapses are just part of a growth experience and explain what can be learned from the relapse that will protect them in the future. I try to give them hope. I point out the progress already made and the good things done.

18. I have them keep a daily journal in which they record fantasies and behaviors. I then review and process these during therapy.

19. I give them further books to read, such as Patrick Carnes' later books, Contrary to Love, and Don't Call It Love. I also recommend the Sexaholics Anonymous Big Books, include case histories and biographies of recovering addicts.

20. Other techniques I use include apology sessions; medications to temporarily reduce the sex drive, including eliminating sex fantasies; autobiography; covert sensitization; family of origin work; developing a sobriety contract; healthy sexuality education, and social skills work.

21. And lastly, if an inappropriate image or tempting thought appears on the client's mind, I have him close his eyes and say, "Thank you God. I appreciate your reminding me of my weakness. This will help me get well!!!"

22. Therapy must be tailored to the special needs of the couple. I choose only those techniques that best fit my client's special needs.

[Raymond]

I think it is a growing epidemic as well Tammy. Sex was meant to be in marriage not out of it, including mentally. Your post underlines this only too graphically. From the post it appears that men can become animals when the healthy sexual drive is diverted away from it's legitimate expression in the marriage bed.

I once heard the analogy that one has the fire in the fireplace (marriage). Have it anywhere else and it burns the house down. Hasn't God already shown this in the scriptures?

[1aokgal]

Thanks Tammy for the article above.

This article rather illustrates the hopelessness of the problem without long term psychotherapy.

[Chamomile]

There was a program on tv last night (could well be a repeat) re. m****n addiction in a couple of British Men.
They were going to the US for some special therapy. I didn't find the topic interesting enough for me (in fact, it's so GROSS) so didn't watch it till the end.