How do you committ to divorce or marriage?

[Annie2]

Anyone who has read my previous posts will know (in a nutshell) my husband had an affair and we are trying to rebuild our marriage.
My thoughts at the moment are on what my reasons are for wanting to stay with my husband. I haven't had the greatest marriage, although I was happy and enough to stay in a 17 year relationship with him. He has broken my trust many times through hitting me and lack of support throughout the years during one crisis after another. I have never had the 'couple' relationship. No effort on his part in the flower, romance and even just involving me in his work and social life. Infact I've just been part of his furniture for a very long time.

Now, he says very different. That he is getting to know himself better and is seeing how much hurt he has caused and wants to change. He says he never knew what he had until he almost lost it (hindsight is such a wonderful friend!).

For me, I know I love him despite all the crap. I've hung on for years wanting and trying to make our marriage work better. To try for that security that I've yearned for. Now, that security (or that feeling of being 100% sure I'm loved) has gone forever. It's replaced by thoughts which rely on his actions. He is here, he is going to counselling, he says his affair was wrong and he loves me - therefore although I'm not convinced it's enough for me to want to try and believe it.

I guess I just wonder why I am still hanging in there. I don't want to look back with regret for not having left him (ie. if he in the future has another affair or hits me). Am I just allowing myself to be fooled? I wonder what point people who have divorced their cheating spouses got to that made them feel certain that was that. I did apply for a divorce at first but it was too hard for me, at the time I was in so much shock and hurt. I don't want a divorce but I don't want his affair to ever have happened (childish sounding I know but that's how I feel). In a way I feel trapped because it's a no win for me. I could be unhappy staying in this marriage and I could be unhappy out of it. And vice versa with actual happiness.

I worry that I am unable to commit either way and I will carry on feeling one thing and then another. I so long for focus in my life, to be able to concentrate on one thing. It's like his affair and his 'confusion' have twisted all my thoughts to the extent I can't make sense of much. One thing that really sticks is that he said 'I knew you would always try...' He said a lot of ridiculous things but now claims he was confused and denying what everything meant and so on. But that is the trouble, for him he can look at all the hurt, feel sorry but clear that it was wrong. For me I look and it and it stays. Nothing he can say will explain, justify or undo any of it. And that is the hardest part, knowing that I have to live with what he has done and I can't forgive. I can't forgive because for me there was no justified reason (are any affairs justified!).

Anyway a bit of a ramble, but I'm just looking for others experiences in staying or leaving and how they came to making that committment.

Thanks again,
Annie

[tammy]

Hi Annie,

I am having the exact same problem as you in deciding what to do - when do you decide that youve tried for long enough, when do you draw the line and move on? The difference with me is that i had what could be called a perfect marriage before this. We have always been really close and the best of friends. We have always been there for each other and was always able to talk to each other about anything - that is untill this girl started chasing and flirting with him last year then he started a relationship with her in march. Maybe thats what has made all this harder to take and understand, maybe we just started taking that 'perfection' for granted, i dont know all i do know is that it just made the fall harder.

I too have all the questions that you have, I too swing from one end to the other unable to seem to commit either way - stay or go. I just want some clarity in life now, some direction to commit to and give all my energy to that instead of seeming to go round in circles. I forgave him to some extent the original relationship but have been unable to forgive him for wanting to stay friends with her, for not understanding my feelings about that. without forgiveness can there be any hope?

I also look forward to what others have to say about how they came to a decision about what they needed to do.

Tracy

[Anne22]

Dear Annie,

I'm not sure whether I can help as you know I am in a very similar position, I have always been very grateful of your responses so thought I would try and give you my thoughts as I have thought long and hard about forgiveness!!!

I do believe that if you want to help build your marriage you will need to forgive! I know you can never forget and all the pain and suffering you have endured over the years makes forgiveness very hard but I do feel it needs to happen!

I am not a religious person at all (Weddings, Births, Funerals etc!) but do have faith - we all make choices and you are choosing at the moment to try and make things work with your H! You need to be part of that process too and perhaps learning to forgive him might just be that!

Of course he is the one who should be working really hard to earn your respect , love and trust and of course he needs your forgiveness.

I am not sure if my H is showing enough remorse and making enough effort for our marriage to survive but he knows that I can forgive him if he is prepared to hold up his end of the bargin!

Unfortunatley some H's are unable to show much emotion and remorse although they may feel they are making the effort. My H just thinks him being in the house not instigating arguments and keeping the peace while he does the odd job around the house or garden is enough - time will tell.

I dont know about you but sometimes I just want to shake him and get him to open up and tell me what is going on in his head!!

I do constantly worry if he is going to be unfaithful again and unfortunatley he is not a talker so since he first reasured me, he hasnt spoken about it again - he just thinks that he can sweep it all under the carpet and move on!!

I do feel that because I can (somehow!) forgive him - I am less bitter in my approach - because of this 'Life is slightly more kinder to me' and I do seem to worry less and it makes me feel stronger in the long run - almost as if I have the upper hand!! - I may be nieve and he may be fooling me all along - and of course I often think 'once a cheat, always a cheat' but I am at the moment prepared to give it a go!

I have promised myself that if I find out anything else about him I will file for divorce however hard that may be - and he knows it!!!! The sh.. will hit the pan and everyone will get to know!!! (His worst nightmare!!!!)

I am not sure I have helped! But perhaps given you something to think about! I know its hard but try not to waste too much time thinking about him and what happened and get on with all those things you want to do for yourself!

Good luck girlfriend its great to have you to talk to - take great care - Anne xxx:)

[Annie2]

Tracy and Anne,
Thank you for your replies. I know you are both in the same position as me. It's so hard is it not to stay focussed on one thing. But that's what happens when your husband offers you two extreme sides to his character. Which do you trust and believe in. How much of one is real and how much of the other is not.
Anne you do make me laugh. Your husband doing his odd jobs and keeping the peace is exactly the big effort my husband is making to show his 'changing ways'. Oh dear, not quite what we need is it?
Tracy I am as stuck as you on the 'forgiveness' part. What does it mean, how do you and what does it involve?
I'd love to hear from those of you who enough was enough. How did you stick at your decision and how do you feel about it now. Are you like us who stay, thinking one thing and then the next? Or is it more focus on one thing only. I just have a horrible feeling that once you are launched into the world of your partner cheating on you there is no escape from hurt.

sorry a bit down feeling today!
Annie xxx

[jojo58]

Dear Annie,
You have been such a help to me over the past few weeks, that I hope in some little way to reciprocate. After my weekend away with my H which on the whole was good, although there were some emotional highs and lows. I have also been asking myself the question as to why I stay. Most of this is to do with the good parts. For part of the weekend I saw finally again (after a along absence), the man I married. The concerned, thoughtful, caring husband I had for over 20 years and I thought I had completely lost. I also got the annoyed, agitated, stressed out person he has become. The realisation that the former person is still essentially there and needs bringing out and keeping there is what keeps me going. Maybe what you have to ask is whether the person you want yr H to be, still exists, and whether you can keep him there , without too great a cost to yourself and how much effort is he making to keep himself there for you too.
I know we still have a long way to go, and don't dissolution myself, I accept there may be more crises along the way, but I want to get there and I am convinced that he does too.
Good Luck
Jojo

[tammy]

Hi all,

Funny about what are husbands term as trying by helping out etc. my husband is doing the same, has been takling those little jobs that ive wanted done for ages, making me cups of tea etc. How do we tell them we need the little things, signs that they love, care and are remorseful withought putting ideas/words to them so that we then dont know if they really mean it or doing it because youve told them thats what you want.

Jojo, i too see signs, very big ones, that the person that i loved is still there. My friend today made me face up to the fact that if i started again and was looking for someone new i would be looking for someone with all the traits, personality and views that my husband has (except the obvious one!). So i'm thinking maybe i should stick it out a bit longer and see if we get that missing 'connection' back.

Tracy

[Annie2]

Hello ladies,

Thank you all for your replies. Jojo I'm glad your weekend was as well as expected.
I think you all have said something quite important about remembering and seeing again the man you married. To be honest I can't remember that, our whole relationship has been clouded with so much other stuff that I think I have actually forgotten what good things I liked in the first place. I was 16 when I met my husband, he was 19 and he couldn't do anything wrong. He was my first proper boyfriend and I was in awe that he was 'sooo old' and at uni while I was still at school. He introduced me to sex which was tainted with him telling me how he and his ex girlfriends used to do it. It just seems everything is so tainted with bad memories at the moment.

On a lighter note, it's great hearing about those 'big gestures' of tea making and grass cutting that our 'new men' are doing. :eek: Has anyone had any classics such as 'Maybe I can see you as a woman now' or 'I just felt understood (by the o/w)....'. It's not really what they tend to say on tv, is it. How about ' God how could I have been so stupid, you are the best thing that has ever happened to me and I am going to do everything I can to win you back....(whilst on bended knees, manly crying and clutching a new eternity ring). I'm still waiting for a bit of that...;)

[callow]

Hi Annie

I too am in a limbo situation about divorce. My marriage hasn't been the greatest, it has been good at times, but my husband has never really supported me and in the end I became resentful. Anyway he is still saying that he wants a divorce, but has done nothing about it.

The best advice is "If in doubt do nothing". Which is what I am doing now. I will only file for divorce when after several months I am 100% sure that is the right thing for me. At the moment I go between 70 and 90% and the figure is slowly creeping up.

I have recently read a book "Wild Love" by Gill Edwards, a very thought provoking spiritual book on what real love is. I know that my H and I don't have real love as during our time as a couple I haven't grown spiritually, in fact I have felt squashed and only now is the real me coming out again.

Sally

[Ginger God]

Hey Annie....

Im one of the few who took the plunge and left. The second affair was the killer, she was offered options but did absolutely nothing to stop our separation. The day she got my solicitors letter she made an appointment to see one.
The trust went the first time and never came back..I thought I had reason not to trust her and I was proved right.
Yes possibly you can forgive but you can never forget and that is also a killer.
Of course it was the hardest thing I have ever done because it affected my kids but I had to stop her walking all over me and leaving her and showing that I had the ...sorry... balls to do it proved I had the courage.
I have NEVER regretted it since last November but I still have sad times, times when I realise I will never be a proper family again. I dont dwell on him with her in my old house. The next 5 years are solely making sure my 10 and 12 year old have a steady childhood as they can expect.

Big decision... I could tell you what I think you should do.... but you probably dont want to hear it.

Best of luck,

Graham

[Annie2]

Thank you Sally,
That helped. I think this is what I am trying to work out, whether there was ever any love between us. For me, I knew no different but I was happy with what I had. I wanted it to be better, with him, but I never wanted anyone else. For him he has said he felt I 'held him back'. Nice!
But this sudden declaration of love, well I say declaration its more of a constant 'I love you' whenever I'm upset. The trouble is he told me he loved me throughout his affair and then told me about his affair and said he had never loved me. Anyway, this sudden declaration is so hard to believe. It's not convincing when he's just been shagging and telling that to someone he only knew for 6 weeks. He would say that now he realises what love is but for me it's a case of believing I had love and now being shown just what I had.

I know that divorce would make me unhappy but that living with so much uncertainty or assurance with how I feel (not him but it's about how I feel now), isn't the answer to happiness as well.

Do you think it's easy to stop loving someone after they have an affair? It's not just the affair, it was his relunctance to come back, his blaming me and wanting to thank her. Infact it's just every little and big thing he has done, I'm not sure how I can love him never mind the trust or forgive thing.

Annie xx

[Annie2]

Graham,

Thanks, I missed your reply typing away at mine. I'm really glad to hear you have no regret and that must feel so good.

I have a feeling what you would tell me to do. But can I ask, was it always, with hindsight, so awful a marriage for you? Did it change suddenly or were the signs always there you just saw them afterwards? I'm just wondering if I have hope in the fact we have identified the crap in our marriage that we can sort that out. But then maybe I should be thinking the other way, will it ever change?

I wish it was a blooming pair of shoes I was being tormented by decisions with! i think some of my reasons for staying, frighteningly involve, not feeling good enough for anything else (or anyone else), the children thing and just breaking a habit. Maybe I'm not as strong as others and I just can't take the plunge.

Thank you all for your replies, I've got so much food for thought from you.
Take care,
Annie xx

[Helen]

Annie and all,

I am seeing so many parallels here with much of what you are saying. In the aftermath of finding out about my ex's affair, I too questioned the love between us - whether there ever was any. The fact is, if he had ever loved me I found it hard to understand and accept that he could not only cheat on me, but do it in such a public way (i.e. kissing and holding hands with this woman around my home where people who knew us (for God's sakes, our son) could see, with such a close family member. To me, this was something that was done not only to maximise the betrayal but also to demonstrate his complete lack of respect for me and maximise the pain on my part. There was also the way he behaved afterwards. Not only did he refuse to knuckle down and work on our relationship, he was also pretty spiteful towards me after we split. For example, he would laugh out loud, call me abusive names and put the phone down on me. He also came to our flat and told me I was a drunk and he was taking our child from me. I will admit, I did drink a lot after finding out about the affair but to call me a drunk and to do it in front of our child... We had a huge, huge fight that night and our son was very distressed and walked out. I did ask my ex how old he thought our child was? He was almost 19 at the time, not six! No court in the land was going to intervene in my care of him, which did not suffer despite what was going on (i.e. I continued to wash, cook and clean for him (I did little else) - I also continued to work).

This behaviour was at odds with the persona he initially presented, which was confusion, contrition and an 'honest' desire (so he said) to work on things. When it came down to it, he was none of these things because he continued to see my brother's ex (because they split) and apparently did not care about the continuing hurt that he caused me, our son or my brother's child with this woman. To this day he has never shown any contrition to me, although I hear privately he has been pretty withdrawn and has turned his back on many, many formerly close friends. I think because he is concerned about what they will say to him. I told him that his behaviour made me question the very foundations of our marriage. I was now sitting here wondering if it had all been a lie - the love, the promise of fidelity at the alter - all of it. Funnily enough, me saying this infuriated him! He said it had never been a lie and me saying this made him question my love for him. I explained that my love and fidelity had never been in question. After all, I wasn't the one who went off and shagged someone else and lied about it. I wasn't the one who told someone else I 'loved' them - unlike him. Something else which infuriated him...

When did I know I could not go on? When the situation became truly farcical and I emerged from my fog for long enough to clock what was going on, which happened about a month after we had separated. While we were apart, we were supposed to be working on our relationship but my ex would not stop seeing the other woman. He kept saying he couldn't abandon her because he was responsible for the situation she was in. I said no, she is responsible. She did not have to have an affair with you. She chose to. Besides, she was no young lolita. She is the same age as me! Not innocent. Nor was my ex the first man she had had an affair with (he refused to believe this but it was true). I told him that we stood little or no chance of rebuilding our relationship with her lurking there (which he agreed with) but he still made no move to stop contacting her. Then there was his refusal to go to marriage counselling or do anything constructive to try to repair things. Once again, the onus was on me. By then I was seeing a counsellor and desperately searching for help on the Internet. I bought e-books which I sent to him (and which typically went unread). He agreed to see a counsellor (to sort out his 'confused' thoughts) and then denied ever agreeing to do this because he changed his mind.

After 4 weeks of being messed around, I started to ask myself what it was I was trying to save? Like many of you, I did not have a great marriage. The last 7 years or so were not good. He was never there for me emotionally. He hated my job and was never supportive, although he loved the money. He also saw me as a meal ticket and a sex object (like many men, he was obsessed with porn and gradually started treating me like a hooker). He made no effort to talk to me outside the bedroom, which I had an issue with. There were regular promises to change, which he never ever stuck to. This man honestly made me miserable for a long time, as periods of depression attested to. I asked myself if I was crazy for wanting him back? The verdict was yes, I must be!

At that point, although I did not make a conscious decision to divorce him, I gradually found myself going from talking about him in the present tense to talking about him in the past tense to my counsellor, over a period of 5 weeks or so. While I was going through counselling, he started talking about being unable to decide what to do. He could not choose between us and things reached a stalemate. At that point I told him I would make the decision for him and he should go to her because I refused to play second fiddle to a benefit cheating, sit at home for no reason scrubber like her. By the end of the counselling I knew I intended to divorce him and told him so. And he was devastated and asked me to reconsider!

He says now it wasn't the fact that I was divorcing him that was a shock. He said he would have been surprised if I had done anything else, which was why he made no real effort to try to salvage things. It was just the knowledge that we were coming to an end. Everyone thought we would be together forever - I certainly did. And he realised that we were ending because of his stupidity. Not only for having the affair but for the way he behaved in the aftermath. All of that said, he continued to demonstrate his selfishness and stupidity by trying to set up home with this woman and play happy families with the children that my brother had raised with her (she had two by two different men, one of which was in nappies, when my brother got together with her). He was having sex with this woman in the bed that she shared with my brother. The whole thing was and is so sordid and disgusting...

I don't think there are any magic answers to your question. For me, it was the circumstances, the person he had the affair with, the behaviour and the realisation that this man had made me deeply, deeply unhappy for a long time. The only thing that struck me like lightning was the 'are you crazy?' question. I had just got rid of him - did I honestly want him back? The answer was no, I didn't. Divorce was not uppermost in my mind at the point of separation nor for weeks afterwards. I was still in shock, still reeling. Not eating and not sleeping at all and drinking far, far too much. It was only after I emerged from my fog and realised that he was still embroiled with this woman and was, as usual, making promises that he had no intention of keeping (the pattern of our marriage) that I realised I had no choice. Things were not going to improve. Our marriage was not going to repair itself. Even with monumental effort on my part, you can only repair a relationship if both parties want to repair it. My ex was showing little or no interest, despite what he was saying to me.

As to the forgiveness question, surprisingly, I have forgiven him. But I would never forget nor, so long as he was seeing this woman, trust him. He knew this and seemed to have issues with it. He said if he came back to me, he would be with me but I said no, without counselling or working on our problems, the minute things went sour between us again, you would be off with her. And he would be. And, like Graham, I do not have any regrets about calling time on our marriage. I think it was the only logical thing to do, bearing in mind all the things that were going on in the background.

All situations are different and I know our circumstances are not identical. But this was the situation for me.

Take care all,


Helen

[Ginger God]

Graham,

Thanks, I missed your reply typing away at mine. I'm really glad to hear you have no regret and that must feel so good.

I have a feeling what you would tell me to do. But can I ask, was it always, with hindsight, so awful a marriage for you? Did it change suddenly or were the signs always there you just saw them afterwards? I'm just wondering if I have hope in the fact we have identified the crap in our marriage that we can sort that out. But then maybe I should be thinking the other way, will it ever change?

I wish it was a blooming pair of shoes I was being tormented by decisions with! i think some of my reasons for staying, frighteningly involve, not feeling good enough for anything else (or anyone else), the children thing and just breaking a habit. Maybe I'm not as strong as others and I just can't take the plunge.

Thank you all for your replies, I've got so much food for thought from you.
Take care,
Annie xx

Annie,

When I met my ex she was the best thing that ever happened to me. I could not believe that someone that I considered so beautiful could be remotely interested in me. We married quickly and had our son shortly after we married so there wasnt much of a honeymoon. She hated sex during pregnancy and from then on in which was 1994 onwards I was not allowed to touch her anywhere intimate and that lasted until I left her. Her excuse? I dont know whats wrong with me..you will have to put up. Then the affairs started and you cant have affairs without being touched intimately.
I suffered 4 years of wondering and never getting the final proof..but there was enough evidence.
I will never love anyone like I loved her, or at least I dont think I will. I dont love her anymore but at least had three good years with her... but three out of thirteen isnt enough, thats why I called it a day.
Oh and by the way..I am the weakest person when my kids are around but if I can find the strength so can you.

Graham

[Annie2]

Graham and all,
I am astounded that you are still standing after your wife had a second affair. It can't have been easy but you show immense strength through your postings. I am also very much in awe by your honesty. I really hope you do find someone that you can say...actually i love her more than my ex, this is much more like love.

I guess what Sally said about 'if in doubt do nothing' is going to be my new way of thinking. That really helps. Both Graham and Helen had no doubt in there mind and that has proved to be the right decision for them.

I don't know what the right decision is but I live in hope that one day I will know I have made it.

I really hope that all of you in the same situation feel that too. Thank you for all your really helpful responses, I was having a crap day but it really pushes me forward knowing that others out in cyber world can identify with how I am feeling. I wish you all the best,
A very tired but feeling calmer,
Annie xx

[Anne22]

Dear Annie

Here I am so early in the morning re-reading your posting! I do hope you have a calmer day today! I have such good days follwed by days of blinding anxiety I know how you feel.

I am having a bad one today as my H has gone to Europe til Friday and is off again all of next week! I cant seem to get over his going away. I know that is when he has been unfaithful to me.

He promised to leave details of his flights and hotel following the 'hiccup' last week (previous post!) and seemed really angry this morning as he was writing details out for me telling me that doing so was making him late leaving home! WHy am I to blame for everything?

I have spent the last two hours reading the posts and suppose I have also been thinking about what Sally said - 'if in doubt do nothing'! I am not sure that lying down and doing nothing is good for me because that is exactly what I did and it came back and bit me!

I did nothing for 8 years although had suspicions that I tried hard to ignore - I knew I wasnt happy and my H wasnt showing any support but as I have known him since we were at school (12 years of age!) I really didnt think he would be so dishonest, unloyal and hurtful!!! I really didnt think he had it in him!!! Most important I really thought I knew him!!

How wrong I was - to have had at least three one-night stands!!! As you know two of them with my close friend!!! Whatever was I thinking!!!

He often used to tell me I was his 'best friend' but has never really shared himself with me. I remember saying at Relate - well if I am your Best friend and you have done this to me I dred what you would be like with other friends!!! I have often felt over our nearly 20 yrs of marriage (or been made to feel) that I owe him because I have been home with the kids and not earning like him!

SO many hurtful things have happened since I confronted him this time last year! It is times like this that I really do wonder if I need to be worrying all the time about what he is up to! Last year he promised me he would change and not flirt on email with work colleagues like he had and not arrange to meet women colleagues alone for supper etc. But I do not really know if he has as he doesnt share much with me. If I say anything he gets all hot under the collar and says 'oh dont bring out the skeletons again!

During a family holiday at Christmas he was on the fone to 'work' alot but not when I was around - friends and the kids mentioned this - when I questioned him he said it was just his boss! However when we returned he received a voicemail message from a woman on a Sunday morning at 745am - I took his fone and listned to it while he watched me - he looked worried and guilty and said it was a very good friend from work who was having a hard time with an employee and he was just being kind to her as the 'Boss' - I asked him if her h knew she had rang and he said he probably didnt!!! I went mad, thought he was being dishonest with me and said if she is such a good friend how come I dont know about her and said I wanted to ring her to find out just what was going on - he turned nasty and said he would look stupid at work if I did.

He promised he wouldnt go for lunch or a drink with her again but when he had in the past it was just as work colleagues.

He also went away for 4 days with my son and my son said he was on the phone alot and at 11pm at nite - not to me - infact he spoke to me one on four occasions - when I rang him - I questioned him and he said oh just work!!!

I have asked him for copies of his fone bills for those two months so he can prove to me he has been faithful to me and help me trust him, but although he said he would give them to me at first, has since said he isnt going to give them to me as I will make a mountain out of a molehill and I should just believe him!!

He left for his flight at 4am this morning and I have been up since worrying - I feel physically sick!!

Sorry to ramble on....................what am I to do - sometimes I seem so together other times just a wreck!!! Is this normal???

A very Anxious Anne x

[Annie2]

Oh Anxious Anne!!!!

Your husband is being such a prat! He is having a little tantrum over the fact you don't trust him and therefore he is not feeling as free and easy as he used to. So what!!! You don't trust him for VERY good reasons, he was NEVER free and easy (or he shouldn't have felt that way). You stick to your guns Anne expect evidence and if he so much as hiccups when providing it - ignore him. Of course he is trying to look for a bit of sympathy or to make you feel bad. He is sooooo full of his rights this is too much for him, he feels like his own man, he's been denying having responsibilities and now he is having to face them. Well did you expect him to that graciously?? He has not been gracious for a very long time.

I really think you were right about the job thing. His going away a lot is never going to help your marriage. But they didn't build Rome in a day so this is one to keep for a bit. In the meantime you MUST stop stressing about what he is up to (easier said than done). You are better than that, he has done the worst. You have been in the position where the end of your marriage could be an option. He knows this, you know it. Therefore there is nothing you can do to control him. His part is up to him, if he can easily do anything now then you know what your dealing with and it would make your decision easier to make. If he doesn't then you have hope. As cold and horrible as it sounds that is all it comes down to. Don't stress over things that haven't happened yet. Equally, if he can not reassure you when he is away, if you dont even get a tiny bit of reassurance then you have to decide whether that will ever change.

Hang in there Anne. You are doing amazingly well. And yes it is perfectly normal to feel the way you do. Rambled thoughts, feeling sick, unable to focus on housework (I once put all washed clothes into the oven instead of the tumbler), shoving in chocolate, making your pet rabbit a cup of tea (yep did that too) and wearing your underpants over your jeans like superman (oh yes!!) its all normal. But you are the normal one, your husband is not so remember that!
Take care my friend, put on your brightest red lipstick, get a Lady Thatcher handbag and walk tall for ten minutes around the garden. It does you the world of good and it's more fun than phoning the samaritans.
Post soon,
Love Annie xxx

[Annie2]

ps. I once called the samaritans during a very dark moment, post affair and one of those middle of night sitting crying moments. A very sleepy woman answered and I could hear her husband snoring, I heard her get out of bed go down stairs and make a cup of tea the whole time while she was saying 'mmm poor you...oh dear it must be hard....mmmm'. It really sobered me up! I thought good grief who am I? I am my own woman, I am being controlled by HIS behaviour. That was quite a turning point! His behaviour is controlling you Anne and you need to take that control. Do not waste time and energy on that. Try spending more on YOU. Give the Maggie Thatcher trick a go, it really helps wearing a silly grin too.
xxxx Annie

[Anne22]

Annie

Thanks once again - I will try and stop stressing - the kids and I had a chat in the car today about jobs etc. My little boy said he wanted a good job too with lots of money, but not one that takes him away from his family as its not nice! Love him - I felt very weak at the knees when he said it! I worry because my daughter kept very quiet but then did say I would like to do what you did mum and give to my children while they are young but have a career and travel beforehand - like I did!

I am trying so hard not to talk to the kids about my disappointments and be strong but am finding it very hard - I dont want to hurt or damage them!

I know I must stop stressing - I know he has done the worst but am constantly reminded as he seems unable to show me any kindness or remorse other than the occasional peck on the cheek when he comes in or goes out!

Does this mean he wants out - is he just going to up and leave after Christmas?

I worry that if he was tempted again - I would be the fool as he has so many opportunities and I would never know if he doesnt tell me and of course he would and never has done that!

I dont feel I want to control him - never have, never will but feel he is controlling me by playing with my emotions! Do you think I should make demands on him to show he is being faithfull? He didnt like this when I asked for the fone bills and never followed through - why not? Is he guilty of anything else?

Oh God I am so confused!!!

I am glad you say this is a normal way to feel - because I hate this pathetic feeling!! I want to be better than this!

My fone was ringing for ages this morning and I realised I had put it in the fridge!!!! What a nutter!!!! - your behaviour is catching!

Thanks again

Anne xx

[Annie2]

Anne,
I'd like to announce that you put my pelvic floor to the test when I read about your phone in the fridge!!! Yes you are a nutter, but a nice one.

I would not call them 'demands' that you ask your husband for reassurance. I would see it more as his ticket to getting to keep his family.

His lack of remorse shows a man who is in denial over what he has done. Have you had a wobbly enough yet infront of him. Is he aware of the wreck he has caused? The trouble is he is so set in his ways of thinking and seeing. You represent a reminder to him of who he has become and who he probably doesn't want to be. In a way he is looking right through you because as well as not recognising himself he doesnt see Anne. He is putting in no effort because its become a habit. You have been a stable and loyal part in his life and he is in no fear of losing that, infact he probably hasn't really even considered what that would be like. I really strongly feel you have to show him just who you are, remind him of the Anne he first met. Break yourself free from all the normal, little things you do that he expects. I stopped ironing shirts, I told everyone I knew about his affair (previously never discussed our marriage to anyone), I didn't cook for him, I went out socialising at the weekend, I stuck to my guns on changing jobs, offering reassurance. I didn't back down even when he turned the guilt on me - 'how can I live being policed' or 'how could you think about breaking up our family' (yes this was him, the man who had just done it himself). You need to be independent because that way you are breaking away from the control he has over you. Acknowledge the feelings you get from his behaviour, you can't help feeling insecure - you have good reason. Then try and think what could help, him phoning more often, showing receipts, spending more time at home. Does it really sound unreasonable. This is your family too Anne, he is the one breaking the rules, you and the children do not have to fit into his life and his ways. He has broken all the rules in your family and he is the one that needs to slot back in, and in a far better way. It's not about making up for what he has done, it's about finding away so that it never happens again. That means him being happy too but not at your expense.

I know the confusion is overwhelming. But right now you are dealing with your own emotions and trying to second guess his. You feel his have effect on yours, which they do. Which is what I mean about taking control. It's not changing or denying how you feel, its about accepting how you feel, knowing why and thinking about what HE can do to change that.

Take a daily stock check. By that I mean, think he is still living at home, you are still working out what to do, you are still dealing with your very raw emotions. Take every day as it comes, review it and don't try and make huge decisions in a day. Evaluate over time because that way you will have a bigger picture to work with.

The phone bill thing could be him resenting being 'policed', he doesnt' want to feel he isn't trusted - he is better, so he believes, than that. He is so in denial! It could be that there is more evidence on the bills that you will see. I don't know but I think you have to hang in there and wait until you see the bill, only then can you judge. He has a choice right now, if there is something he is still hiding he could tell you and own up. That way he is showing he is acknowledging he has something to be guilty about. If he is refusing to show you the bill because he doesnt' want you to find out anything, he is denying that he is so in the wrong. By showing you will be a tiny chip at the armour of self-belief he has built around himself. But saying all that it could simply be again his pride and a dent that he has reduced himself to not being trusted (although he will blame you for this bit cos he's being a bit thick here).

I asked my husband to leave his mobile while he nipped out for a take-away one night (very early post affair and he wasn't living here). He kicked up an almighty storm of human rights and so on. I caved and felt bad, later it turned out she was still phoning him and vice versa. How I wish I had stuck my heels in and insisted.

Anne it's horrible and its so hard and confusing. You are not alone, we are here and we are going through it too and have been through it.
You take great, great care and be far kinder to yourself,
big hugs
Annie xx

[Annie2]

oh dear another ps,
How can you damage your kids by showing true and correct emotions that fit a situation. Daddy is behaving like an arse so mummy is upset. It makes sense to them and it's healthy for them to see fitting human behaviour. However, Daddy is behaving like an arse, mummy is upset but Daddy isn't doing anything to help that or help us.... Most damaging to them. Lessons are learned by children watching their parents relationship. You are nurturing them by showing them loving, caring and real emotion. He is not. He is showing them that you can pretty much do what you want in life and not feel bad about it. He is showing that when the family unit is under stress he is not supporting it. Children need to be given more credit here, they are working it all out Anne and they are seeing what is right in front of them. All you can do is be completely honest with them, which includes explaining with as much truth as you can manage as to why you are feeling, doing or behaving in the way you are.

Take care annie xx

[Anne22]

Annie

Decided to enroll at the gym last week and went this am - feel much better for having made the effort but hate those dredful mirrors which show you what a fat, ugly c.. you have become!!! I really do hate these steroids!!!

I would have felt even happier if there had been a 'punch bag' to take things out on!!!

Fone rang while I was in changing room - ignored it - just found out it was h ringing from Europe!!! Wish I had resisted ringing back but did but no reply - he is probably in a meeting! It is unusual for him to fone - so I suppose I should see it as a positive sign!

I really want to insist on seeing the fone bills but dont know how to ask without everything getting out of hand!!! Cant stand any more animosity!!! Have said in the past that it would make me feel I can trust him again - in fact he has never given me any evidence that he isnt carrying along as he was!!!! Other than saying he is behaving, but he doesnt offer this information just says that when I ask!!!

What is remorse anyway - not something my h has ever felt I know!!

I just want to have a normal relationship - someone who cares about me, doesnt turn off every light in the house if I go out although I say I will be back by 10pm (not a regular occurance me going out!). SOmeone to ask me how I am and how my day has been and on some occasions just someone to say hello or goodbye to!! I find his behaviour soul destroying - its almost as if I were the one who was unfaithful!

Well thats enough of me chattering on!!!

Thanks for listening - shame your not next door and we could put the World to right over a coffee!!!!

Anne xx

[Annie2]

Anne,

If you were my neighbour our husbands wouldn't know what had hit them!!
Im glad you got to the gym, half the battle is actually getting there. I know what you mean about those ruddy mirrors. Good grief how unkind they are!

Hang in there Anne, it is not too much to want a normal relationship. The things you listed are so little to the other things some lucky wives get (flowers, surprise birthday presents and so on). We're just looking for a bit of humane consideration.

your husband is in a very bad mood at the moment. Don't forget he is doing everything he can not to face up to himself. He is hiding behind you by blaming you, controlling you and so on. It will all burn out because you will change and he sees you changing and therefore sees his 'cover' getting smaller. It's sink or swim time for him yet he is so used to wearing armbands (sorry getting a bit ridiculous here, bear with me).

I think it's quite something that he phoned. Make sure you say to him it was nice (not too nice!) that he did - he needs to be aware when he gets things right too as well as the wrong bits.

Take care, I'm off to take my little one to nursery which usually takes a while (bit of a clinger!)
Annie xxx

[Ginger God]

Hey you girls have been having a bit of ping pong today have you not.

Anne I have read the whole post again and all I can say is rewind 14 months and that is where I was.. wondering where she was , wondering what she was doing, wondering who she phoned, wondering why new underwear she had bought was stuffed halfway down the washing basket..there were times when my head thought it was going to burst.
But now its all gone and I dont have to worry about things like that anymore because I had the courage to leave her.
There is nothing I can say that will make things better. I remember talking to friends and counsellors about this for weeks and it got me nowhere.. you are the only one who can bring this to a head.
Have a long hard think about it and do what you know you have to do.. you cant go through the next 5,10 or 15 years thinking I wished I had done that, just be happy within yourself that whatever decsion you make you can live with and be comfortable with.

Graham
x

[Anne22]

Thanks Graham

I just dont know if I am strong enough to 'go it alone'!

I dont want to be responsible for splitting up the marriage - I believe in marriage and I suppose am hoping that things will improve!

More than anything I worry about how the kids will cope!

How to get an emotionally dead H to wake up?

Or am I flogging a 'dead horse'?

I hold onto the thought that some can make it through 'thick and thin'

Anne x

[Anne22]

Annie

I have just re-read this thread and wondered when you decided not to do all the little things for your h - how did he take it?

All my married life - nearly 20 yrs I have ironed his shirts - lots of them too and can not bring myself not to!!!

Sort of feel it is my duty!!! I even wrap his Xmas presents for the 'girls' he is boogieing with this evening on his Xmas bash!!! He was planning to do it but I always offer and make life easier for him! I always act this way - I suppose I may feel that he has a need for me doing these things!!

I wish I could be brave and stop doing just the shirts!!! Be interesting to see how he would fare!!!! We have always had a joke that it took him over 20mins to do one shirt early on in our marriage so I took over and he hasnt really ever had to iron since!!!

When I re-read what I have typed I really feel pathetic!!!

I do think deep down he is only staying because I make his life easy!! So by stopping that process may cause him to leave!!!

God I am so stupid - I am soooooooooo confused - sometimes dont know what to think or feel!!!!

Thanks for listening

Anne xx

[Annie2]

No Anne you are not stupid. Stopping all the ironing and little things is not about how he feels. It's about how you feel. You do it for you. His reaction is obvious he will either be annoyed, put out or just accept it. Who cares? It's for you that you do it. How do you feel doing all the little things when there is no gratitude for the big things you do. Tune into how YOU feel (don't give his reaction a second thought because if you do it will be HIS feelings you put before yours). You need to work out how doing all these things make you feel, what the build up of these feelings do.

If he leaves simply because you no longer iron his shirts Anne you might eventually work out he wasn't worth it.

Take care,
Anniexx

[Anne22]

Hi Annie

I think you hit the nail on the head - I am always thinking about his feelings and put everyone wlse first - I guess I have done this for so long now it is second nature! Not sure I know how to behave like that and am not sure I will like myself if I did!!!! Does that sound silly?

How do I go about being selfish and just not doing for him - it would seem so unnatural for me?

Anne xx

[Annie2]

Oh Anne it's not selfish. For a description of what is selfish look at your husbands behaviour. I am not suggesting you go out of your way to copy that. But you don't have to over-do the opposite of him. While he is being hugely selfish you are being hugely giving. You are compensating for all the things he doesn't do. The more you do the less he will, does that make sense. By not doing some of the various amounts that you do on a daily basis, or even just start with a small thing, he will be offered the chance to do things for you, for him and his family. Try and see him as a spoilt child and I mean this in the kindest way but you are spoiling him. Like all spoilt children he isn't grateful or noticing these things he is just expecting and taking for granted.

I think you might find you do like yourself and respect yourself for allowing the real you (the one that is currently squashed down by his inflicted hurt and the one who is screaming to get out) to be released.

If it would seem unnatural to you to stop doing so much do you think it feels and is natural the way things are now? Is his behaviour natural? You have a lot of thinking to do Anne and you must allow yourself time. I bet the first time you don't do something little it won't sit comfortabley with you but that's because it's about breaking a habit. And unfortunately you will be breaking his and yours.

Good luck Anne and take care,
Annie xx

[Anne22]

Annie

That really does makes sense - I suppose I have to try harder to break some of these habits!

Thanks

Annexx:o