What should I do?

[Anne22]

Hi

I have been in a marriage for nearly 20 years with a man who I went to High School with and we grew up together.

To give you some history I have two children one 12 and the other a teenager and when my youngest was 2 I unfortunately became ill. I went through lots of tests because they thought it was some sort of cancer but it turned out to be a form of auto-immune disease and I was very poorly and put on steroids! This was supposed to be for 6 weeks and 6 yrs later I am still on them along with lots of other drugs!!! I was fit and healthy before and of normal weight and used to enjoy dance classes regularly as well as tennis etc.

After about 6 months I put on alot of weight. I have to attend hospital once a month for treatment and life has been hard. I have resigned to the fact that this is my life and I am trying to cope as best I can. My health problem started when my youngest was about two.

Not long after this my husband was unfaithfull! He had never had sex with anyone else and this always made me feel nervous!!! The fact that someday he may feel the need to see what it is like with someone else! Anyway I knew - I guess female instinct but never confronted him!!! After this I was not interested in sex with him as I was worried about diseases etc - I suppose I can honestly say I did not satisfy his sexual needs! However since then he had a fling with one of my best (single) friends which really worried me as I knew she was very promiscuous and has in the past had diseases and several aids tests!!! Anyway to cut a long story short I never told a sole!!

A year ago he slept with this friend again shortly after I lost my father very young and unexpected and then within 4 weeks I also lost a very dear friend!! I felt desperately sad but something changed in me and I decided not to keep this to myself anymore!!

I decided the time was right and confronted him!! He denied everything at first but he realised I knew too much - he seemed shocked and a little sorry but since then - over a year I have been in turmoil!!!

He has a very good job, working away alot and therefore this presents him with lots of opportunities to play away!!

We had a really bad experience of Relate - and he did go for an aids test when I asked but he has not really shown much remorse.

I somehow still seem to love him and for the sake of the kids cant throw him out but am worried that he might just go?

If anyone has any advice I would welcome it! What should I do?

[Annie2]

Hello Anne,
I hope you don't mind me replying, I think I have been on this site all day (in between children and housework).

I was really moved by your post. You have been through some horrible, horrible stuff and it seems you have done this completely alone. It must have been so difficult to keep all that in for such a time. And it shows incredible restraint. I really admire that.

Firstly I would like to comment on the part where you talked about your weight. I have been every dress size from a size 6 to a size 22 (Uk size). I had many miscarriages and very difficult pregnancies, and a great love of chips and pizza and during all of this time I piled on the weight. But I was far from overweight when my husband had an affair. So really weight, looks, height, shoe size it has nothing to do with it. Never ever think you are less of a person because of what you think you look like. I can not imagine how much you suffered emotionally when you were ill whilst a mother and wife. It must have been a very frightening and frustrating time for you. Yet you have managed to adapt to your new way of life and fit your family around it. That takes incredible strength and again I am in awe.

You say you were worried that your husband had only ever slept with you. I had never had sex before I met my husband and it never bothered me. I never felt the need to explore. I committed myself to him in marriage - end of story, I loved him and he was enough.

Your husband has behaved like the most selfish bast£$%. Where was his support for you? Where was his support for his family? I accept that the stress of watching his wife being ill and therefore out of his control must have been hard. But come on! How self-centred to then make things one million times worse for her! I'm sorry Anne but you are far, far too kind about him. I feel so cross just thinking about what he did! You were dealing with enough health issues to then have to worry about ruddy STD's. I am not surprised you were put off sex. What a turn off!

Did I get this right? He did it again? And with a friend of yours? Good grief what a Bast"£$! It doesn't surprise me that you snapped and confronted him. You really were having a dreadful time with loss. I just can't imagine how that must have been for you.

You say he was a 'little' sorry. Nooooooo, he should have been HUGELY sorry. You have just been through the hardest of hard times and he was a 'little' sorry for the devastating part he played in that.

You say he as a 'good' job. Do you believe he has a 'good' family? Which should come first. Good jobs provide a certain set standard of lifestyle but when the crunch comes what is worth more? Family or job?

It's funny that you say you had a bad experience at Relate. I have heard this before. But don't let it put you off seeking other counselling. There are plenty of good counsellors out there. A bit like a GP, you need to find the right one for you.

You say he has shown little remorse. This again is unacceptable. He could have lost his whole family and he has shown 'little' remorse. When you were ill, what did he show then? Did he deal with that, it must have been hard. But I wonder if he doesn't acknowledge the thought of losing you as it is too hard for him to accept. If that thought entered his head when you were ill you can bet he fought against it and I wonder if he just does the same now.

You say you 'just seem to love him'. There is nothing wrong with that. It shows what an understanding and caring person you are. But who do you love better you or him? You can't live your life worrying that he could just go. That has too much control over you. Things need to be worked on and sorted out. I would urge you to try counselling somewhere else instead. Even if he doesn't want to go you should yourself. I don't know how you kept that all in but it can't have been easy.

Never let yourself think that you have to keep things in. Never blame yourself either. He had choices. He may have had a hard time dealing with his own stress but that is no excuse for making the choice he did. He is responsible for this and not you. He married you, sickness and health and so on, but when you needed him he failed.

I really hope you consider counselling at least by yourself. I think a big dose of tender, loving care for you would do you the world of good. You seem to cope amazingly well alone but why the hell should you.

I really hope things work out for you soon. You need to allow yourself time to think, reflect, grieve and be bloody angry. Don't feel you have to supress anything, you are human. He clearly didn't suffer alone and neither should you. You, however, will be doing it the 'normal' way. He chose a selfish way and you, I believe, are far from that.

Wishing you all the best,
Annie xx

[Anne22]

Dear Annie

Thank you so, so much for replying to me - I have kept this inside for so long - it has been so hard over the past several years to help my sister get over her broken marriage and several rotten relationships while all the time keeping my horrid secret! I have also felt sad that I couldnt bring myself to talk to my mum!!!

I feel such a failure!!

On a positive note - I have two fantastic chidren who are doing really well at school and during my first pregnancy I took the decision along with my husband to give up my very good job - I was actually earning more than him with very good prospects, salary car etc. I feel this was a good decision and I have achieved so much through them.

I do worry that my kids read into our situation. I have always tried to keep silent in front of them but I know they know I am not very happy and they too are disappointed that their dad seems to spend so much more time at work and with work colleagues than with them. My teenage daughter idolises her dad - they are very similar and she is really a dadies girl. My son is much more like me and is very giving.

I do not want to burst their bubble - they both love their dad although he dosent do much with them - he tries but has never been the instigator - its always been me to organise the holidays or days out etc.

He uses his money to buy them lots of things/holidays etc.

This week during 1/2 term he booked off - for the first time since I can remember (perhaps 10 years!) and then went on a business meeting on Monday nite - he said he was staying in a hotel and I checked and he had made no reservation - I confronted him when he returned on Tuesday evening and he said he had slept in the car!!! Sometimes I think he thinks I am stupid but I do think he isnt rational sometimes and just seems to have this need to get away. He confessed that he tries not to spend time alone with me.

When I confronted him he said he felt we had just grown apart and that I was hard to live with as I want to talk all the time when he comes in from work and he has had people talking to him all day and he just wants to switch off. This really hurt as he does not do anything in the house - I am like a single parent - he sometimes helps out picking the kids up from clubs if it coincides with the time he wants to leave work or is coming back from being away. However he always seems to forget I am needing help on the days when I need to spend all day in hospital!!!

What am I to do - I am not overly religious but have been to church since all this and spoke very briefly to a lady vicar who gave me her phone number and said I could call her anytime. I run a small business too so will need to make time to speak with her confidentially!

To be honest this is the first time I have spoken to anyone since our dredful Relate experience. I suppose I should count myself lucky my husband came - he cancelled a few appointments at short notice so I went alone - this hurt! He said to the counsellor the only reason he was there was because I made him!!! I never made him do anything - infact have never made anyone do anything they wouldnt want to do!

Sorry to babble on - and thanks again for your very kind reply.

[Helen]

Hi Anne,

Your story resonated so much with me. I too have an autoimmune disease (Graves Disease) - I have had 3 acute episodes going back 13 years or so. I too zoomed between size 10 and size 26 multiple times over the years and the disease has had varying effects on my libido (when it is in its acute phase). And my ex had an affair too, with my brother's (now ex) wife. As Annie says, size almost always has nothing to do with whether a man has an affair. My brother's ex wife is 4ft 9 or 10 tall and is hugely overweight so I refuse to believe that the fact that I gained and lost weight several times with my illness was a factor. No, it is the loss of libido, something which selfish men are unwilling to put up with, despite knowing the causes. My ex was very much 'if you are not sleeping with me, you don't love me'. He very much equated sex with love whereas I thought love should be much deeper. He could never see it and always talked about me rejecting him, despite the fact that he knew I was unwell.

I too think you have been very strong. And, if you will forgive me saying, far too forgiving. Why on earth are you worried about this joker leaving? He may as well go! He isn't there for you at the moment. He isn't even sorry he cheated with your friend. You may not know it but I suspect you will be fine if he left. Yes it will hurt at first but at least you won't be eyeing up all your friends and wondering if he has shagged them. Indeed, if YOU make the move to get rid of him, I think you would feel even stronger - I certainly did.

After finding out about my ex's affair with my brother's ex wife (she became his ex after the affair was discovered), I divorced my husband because he caused so much pain - not just to me but to my brother's family too. And now he is having to live with it because it turns out that the woman he had the affair with (who he swore was 'the love of [his] life') was not the love of his life after all. They are no longer together and all he does now is sleep and potter around his one room in his mother's house. This is the man who told me he had to be with her because when you find love you have to go there and be with that person. This is the man who swore he loved me but, when the chips were down and I had serious illness to contend with, he disappeared and slept with someone else and felt free to give his love to them.

I do not have a single regret about calling time. I did it on my terms and kept my integrity. His family (bar his mother) and our mutual friends were 100% behind my decision to let him go, although he was bitter about it. He felt I should give him a chance but how on earth do you go to bed again with someone who slept with your brother's wife? I couldn't do it. It would be like sleeping with my brother. And I think the situation is similar with your friend. This woman knows far too much about you. If she was a serious friend, no doubt, despite her promiscuity, she knew lots about you and yet she still felt able to sleep with your husband; and your husband felt able to sleep with her. She was/is no friend and your husband is not a husband. Sorry to say it. He is just a provider.

My view is you should get rid of him because you cannot trust him not to stray again but ultimately, it's up to you. I think he is just a provider but he can still provide if you are apart. And, if you are apart, at least you don't have to worry about who he is shagging now. Because once men stray to get their end away with someone else, they find it oh so easy to do it again. Certainly your husband has. He has done it at least twice to your knowledge. My gut tells me he has done it more than twice but these are the affairs that you know about.

Anyway, take care. I do hope things work out for you. Keep your chin up because that is all you can do when your body is rebelling in all sorts of ways. And do not put up with this clown because you think you are too ill or unattractive to get someone more deserving of your strength and decency. This has not been my experience. I suspect it won't be yours too.


Helen

[Anne22]

Helen

Thank you so much - I feel far too dependent on him - I just dont know if I will manage without him - you are very perceptive - he is a provider!!! Just that - but I feel I would be very selfish - he is my kids dad!!!

I confess I am so confused!!! When I confronted him it was honestly hard for me because I had been living a lie - I knew back then when he slept with my friend the first time - two of my real friends told me they had seen her at my home while I was away on a weeks hol with the kids!!!

Over the years there have been lots of evidence - he even gave me his old computer from work which still held some of his old email messages on it with other women!!! Did he do this on purpose!!!!! He said not!!!

He said the first time he strayed he did it on purpose as he wasnt getting enough sexually from me - then of course I relaised he had strayed and then found it very hard to let himnear me because I was really worried he might have STD's.

He told me he only slept with my friend as it was ' on a plate' but he could have said no!!!! He also said he felt he had been a s... but that is all the remorse he has shown!!

I am so sad and lonely - I feel like telling my daughter what a **** he has been because sometimes she really goes on about how great he is that he has such a great job/provides so much etc!!!!

What should I do?

[Annie2]

Anne,

You must allow yourself to believe that this is your time now. You have rallied around your sister, your family, your illness and your losses. I reckon you haven't had much time to actually work at what's going on for you.

You are NOT a failure!! Goodness me, you sound like the most amazing person. I am the sort to gush and rush to everyone (inc. checkout girls in supermarkets) whenever I break a nail never mind anything else. You are completely controlled and strong in keeping things to yourself.

You have not failed your marriage. Your husband did. It is not YOU who risk bursting the children's bubble, HE is. You are taking too much responsibility for him and letting him off the hook. Children are much more resilient than we give them credit for. All they need is the truth and they deal with it. They know mummy is unhappy and they are disappointed in their dad. Look at that, you have pointed that out. You are aware of their feelings at the moment. How good a mum are you! The best because you are reading their feelings and needs. If they were withdrawn and you didn't recognise why it would be a different story. As mothers we want to protect our children. Unless we hide them in a box we can't exclude them from life, and this is life. You are dealing with it and that is all you can do. You are setting an amazing example to your children of courage and honnesty, they will be so much better off for that. I'm not encouraging point scoring but simply pointing out facts - you give them value and he uses money to buy his respect with them. Do you still feel like a failure?

He is not behaving like a very sorry man. Sleeping in the car? What is that about? Saying he avoids spending time with you? Nice move! That's really going to win back the wife he could have lost through his unfaithfullness.

I wonder just how much you have told or shown him how much impact this has had on you. Does he know just how much hurt he has caused? Does he really understand what this means and what he has lost (respect, trust etc)? Because until he does he probably doesn't have a clue what to be sorry about.

I wonder how he would cope living seperately. Suddenly he wouldn't have you to rely on doing all the housework and organisation. He would be responsible for entertaining his children on his own. Has he thought that through? Has he thought through the possibility not having a supportive and understanding wife, not to mention loving?

I almost spat when you wrote that he feels listening to you is too much considering it's all he does all day for others. Noooooo! You are his wife, you are the one filling him in on his children's lives and so on. You have MORE right and should be MORE important and wanted to listen to. Comparing you to work conversations is crap! You offer more, you offer the complete opposite.

It seems as though you have only wanted support NOT sympathy. Yet he is being soooo sympathetic to himself while you are doing all the suffering (which sounds as though it's coming at you from every direction).

Anne you need to gain control of YOUR life. I really think counselling for you. You mentioned the lady Vicar and I wonder if she could recommend a counsellor for you. My faith has taken a complete nosedive but my Vicar recommended the most wonderful counsellor to me. You can look for one that offers a range of times (Morn, afternoon or eve). If your husband can't make the time it doesn't mean you shouldn't. He won't know what's hit him if you manage to work out in counselling and become much more assertive and (I hesitate saying this as I think you already are) stronger.

As for him saying you 'made him' go to counselling. What utter crap. I take it you tied him up, stuffed him in the car boot and then wheeled him in kicking and screaming inside a Tesco's trolley? Didn't think so. What a cop out and I bet the counsellor didn't buy any of that. I felt I got nothing out of the counselling I did with my husband jointly. It wasn't until I went alone that I really began to benefit. Do it for you Anne not him. Or do it for your children if you can't manage just you.

I wish you all the best, I really think you are a complete saint. Take care of yourself and be a bit more kinder on you too.

Keep posting and let us know how you are doing.
Best wishes,
Annie xx

[Annie2]

Missed your replies Helen and Anne as I was too busy typing mine.
To me your husband is screaming 'notice me'. I think your illness and other horrible events have left him feeling not needed. NO excuse! He could have been supportive not destructive.

He will never get it until he learns what he has done and until he feels and shows he is EXTEMELY sorry.

Only you can decide Anne just how much more you can take. But like Helen I wonder if you are being a little too forgiving at the moment.

Take care,
Annie xx

ps. What kind of respect does he display for women? Offering it on a plate I ask you. What did he do? And as for you seeing him as provider- of what, stress???? Come Anne you are far better than that

[Anne22]

Thank you Annie - I find it hard reading such lovely things you have written about me - I am not a saint - just a hard working mum who thought she had married a man she could share her life with! I have always lived my life for my husband and my kids very selflessly!

Perhaps also a supid woman for no having told all our friends and family just what he has put me through!

His parents are very tight and would support him whatever he has done!!

I do feel that he is only staying as his pride would be hurt if it all came to light! He is so worried what our families would think, and very importantly what his work colleagues would think!!

I know in my heart - although it kills me to say it - he will probably leave me when the kids leave!! I really dont think he likes me anymore and uses the excuse that we have drifted apart as the excuse!

He just tries anything to be apart from me! (he mentioned to my supposed friend on email that "I was away - thank god!!!!")

We have moved away from where she lives but his last nite with her was since this move - as I say he travels alot with his job and I usually only get the area he is in and his mobile no for contact - often not the hotel name!!!!

How can he be so cold? What did I do to deserve this - every one always says it takes two!

[Annie2]

Anne,

YOU do not deserve this and he does not deserve the lovely person you are.

Why should you fear him leaving you? It should be the other way around. He is in the wrong. You have done nothing to make him unhappy. No one is perfect and we all have our off days/weeks but have you just destroyed all the trust, respect and love in your marriage?

Please get some counselling. Talk to everyone you know. This is not your dirty little secret. You are still protecting him. Your family and friends would want to help and listen and you need support right now.

Please be kinder to yourself and stop thinking of him and what he could do. The next move in YOUR life is YOURS.

Take care,
Annie xx

[Helen]

Annie,

Yes, he is your children's father but, apart from throwing money at them, is he really there for them? Would they suffer if the two of you were living apart? I suspect not. He can throw money just as easily from the sidelines. Time and attention isn't really there now. I suspect it would be just as sparingly delivered if you were apart. But ultimately, this is about you, as Annie says. Sometimes you have to stop thinking about what might be best for the kids and think about yourself. Because what is best for you is ultimately best for the kids. A dad who is there in name and paycheck only is no good. A man needs to be a DAD. Your husband isn't. He is a walking paycheck. He doesn't do anything with the kids. He isn't there for them in the way that you are. He is just a provider. And you deserve more than an unfaithful provider.

The way I handled our split with my son was to tell him that his father and I loved him very, very much but we could not live together any more. We had to part because we (and I used the word 'we) were no longer happy to be together. Even though it was my ex who cheated, I never mentioned this to my son, although he found out through the fights that we had that his father had slept with my brother's wife. And when he found out, he was furious. Livid. And he still is, to this day. He hates the woman's guts and told his dad he would NEVER accept her as a stepmother. Never.

How do you pop your chidlren's bubble about their dad? You don't. You won't have to. They will find out for themselves sooner or later. Just be there to pick up the pieces and explain the ins and outs of relationships, as I was with my son. Your daughter might idolise her dad at the moment but she needs to know and learn that people are not infallable. Her dad is not perfect - no one is. But picture this - would you put up with a man who cheated on your daughter? No, I wouldn't either. She is too good for this; she needs to learn that such men exist and she also needs to know that she is too good for this. Daughters take their cues from their mothers. If she ever expresses anger at you for getting rid of her dad (if you do), explain to her that you are doing it for her. Because you want her to know that she is too good to put up with any crap from a man. We all are!

I don't thin you would be selfish if you made him leave. I think it is far more selfish to stay in a relationship with someone who is not fulfilling your needs just because they have a good pay check. Okay, you have the kids to think about but at the end of the day you need to think about the example you are setting for your children too. And you also need to think about your own self worth.

As Annie says, you are not a failure. This relationship went pearshaped not because of you but because of your husband. Remember that. It is up to you to set an example for your kids. An example that says marriage is good but, when the cards are down, it is far better to exit with your sense of dignity intact than linger in an uncertain environment. Ideally, of course we would all stay with the people we married but sometimes that just isn't possible. it doesn't make you bad people; it just means that things did not work out.

Do take care Anne. I really, really do feel for you,


Helen

[Anne22]

Dear Annie

I suppose deep down I do still love him and had the fear/still do fear talking will jeopodise our future together?

I think if he felt I had talked to friends and family he would just go!

[Annie2]

Oh and also.... yes it does take two. You need to remind him that. You are doing all the giving in your marriage, he is doing all the taking. Is that fair? He said she offered it on a plate...sorry it takes two.

Stop worrying about what other people think. At the end of the day this is your life, your happiness and your say. People can think and say what they like and then zoom back into their own messy lives. Please remember, you are not alone and there are many more of you out there. What would you have said to your sister if she was suffering what you are?

Sending you a big hug,
Annie xx

[Anne22]

Helen

My daughter has often talked about her future partner saying she would want a man to help her more in the house etc etc all that her dad doesnt and we have also spoken about honesty - I found this hard - she said dad is a flirt but he doesnt know he is doing it - in other words he is unaware he is doing it - obviously she has seen him in action with some work colleagues - she did then say if you did ever divorce dad you wouldnt do it until us kids have left would you -
The one time when we have talked about a friends family splitting up when the dad strayed she said oh but dad wouldnt do that mum!!!

My heart bled - I felt so sad!!!

[Annie2]

Anne,

You have NO control over his next move. I know that is hard. You could be loving, supporting and forgiving and he could do it again. Or you could think of you and ask for a lot more from him and he might stay. It's a gamble. But you are at the end of the day gambling with YOU.

Of course you still love him. You have known nothing else for such a long time. It is nothing to be ashamed of and it is nothing to be frightened of. Whatever happens YOU are made of something that will cope. But whatever happens you will only survive if you have had a proper say in it. If you go along dreading what HE might do next, where is your say, where is your control. You are not a passenger in his train crash. You are worthwhile, you came into the same world and the same way as him. You are not less and not more (well I might argue that one).
Anne you have the right and need to thnk of YOU here. HE is not going to offer any immediate support or certainty for your life the way he is now. You can not second guess him and you can not live on hope. You need to take control of you, you can't do him. The moment you start doing that then I promise it will be the moment you see everything so differently. I am not saying you will end up with divorce and I'm not saying the opposite to that either. What I mean is that you can not base your future on what he is showing you now and YOU can not change him. You need to explore your options and start thinking of you because no one else is going to do that for you.

Hang in there you are doing brilliantly
Annie xxx

[Anne22]

Annie

Thanks for the hug I really feel I needed that!

[Annie2]

Anne,
Your daughter is young and half your age. She has a whole life ahead of her. You can deal with anything the right way and she will still go her own way. Staying together simply for the children is wrong. They will pick up on bad atmospheres and still they will suffer when you eventually split up.
This is life, it is hard but it's not unusual. Would you rather your daughter grew up experiencing the role of 'mum and wife' as the trodden on woman? I don't think you would. How about independent woman who has a right to a life of quality? Much more like it.
Your husband is responsible for your daughter's reactions and she will get to the age when she will realise that. It melts my heart that you have such a good relationship that she can talk to you about thse things. You clearly offer your children trust and confidence.
What is best for you is best for the children, it's a fact. You are not considering the life of a drug taking lapdancer, you are considering the life of a woman who can no longer put up with a man who shows no remorse, no respect, no love and no support.
Give your children credit, I'm sure being brought up mainly by you they have a sense of fairness.
Annie xx

[Anne22]

Annie & Helen

I have just e-read all your fantastic postings and want to thank you both for all your kind and very encouraging words. I wish I had the courage to do this years ago!

The funny thing is everyone I know knows me as a bubbly happy person when inside I am dying!

We have a fantastic family holiday booked at Christmas and my husband says he is staying put until the holiday to see if things might improve between us - funny how he thinks this when he is not doing anything to help it improve!

I really do feel stronger by talking to you both - I need time to sort things out in my mind - I cant cancel the holiday as I know it will really upset the kids, but perhaps when the chime bells ring in 2007 I will make some promises to myself!

Thanks once again

[Annie2]

Good luck Anne,

Stay strong and keep in touch,
Wishing you all the best,
Annie xxx
ps. Everyone knows you as a happy, bubbly person because you are they just don't know the truth about your H and his horrible treatment of you.

[Helen]

I suppose deep down I do still love him and had the fear/still do fear talking will jeopodise our future together?

I think if he felt I had talked to friends and family he would just go!Anne,

Sorry to say, your future is already in jeopardy! Once a man makes the decision to cheat and follow through, and shows not one scrap of remorse for what he has put you through, that is your future as a couple down the pan. After all, what does he need you for now? He has clearly already given up on you as a wife and life partner if he goes elsewhere for sexual fulfillment. If he shows not one jot of sorrow or regret, that says a lot too. I think you need to think about your situation logically. It is all over bar the fat lady singing, sorry to say. The fact that you cannot get your husband to go to counselling willingly (and participate or say sorry, despite your illness) says a lot; to me anyway. He is a selfish bar steward. Sorry to say it, (I keep apologising for saying this yet I am not sorry!). This is reality, girlfriend. My ex wouldn't go to counselling either, no doubt because he could not face what would emerge about him. This was a big part of me making the decision to cut him loose. What was the point stuggling on? Why should I have continued in a relationship with a negative, unsupportive, emotionless, unambitionless man? We were not on the same page. There was no point. He had made up his mind that I was not worth the fight, although I know he regrets it now. For example, I had an undetectable leak in the flat the other day and asked for his help to resolve things. He readily agreed (through a barrage of texts) to come round the next day at 9pm (although I suspect he would have come at whatever time I dictated). Anyway, I decided to call an emergency plumber after texting him and the leak was detected and repaired. I sent a text to my ex the following morning telling him I did not need him to come after all because it had all been sorted. To this day, I am still waiting for a response. I won't get one. I know him and I know he is upset because I don't 'need' him - again - despite the fact that we are now divorced. And if he goes off and sleeps with his slapper again, on the rebound, I honestly won't give a sh!t! Excuse the language!

This is what your husband is like. I see the pattern. I think you are prolonging the agony worrying about his departure. He will probably depart because he is selfish. I am sorry to say it. And, as stated, he isn't really there anyway so why are you so worried? Just ensure he knows that he will have a continuing obligation to you and the kids. As for your daughter saying 'you won't do anything until we have left', surely she is not saying she expects you to stay as you are until she is old enough to leave home? If she is, it is up to you to teach her that you cannot always do things to suit your kids. YOU have to take care of YOU. The fact that your daughter said this tells me that she knows how things are and how life goes. Talk to her about relationships. Yes, ideally you would stay because you know this would be best for the kids. But you need to think of yourself too and staying is not best for you. You have agonised over the decision and know that there will be repurcussions yet you know what you are doing is for the best. And get your bar steward husband to play ball. He MUST support whatever decision you make. He MUST commit to being there for his kids. He wasn't there for you and, if he gives you weasel words about work and commitments, I would tell him this. His kids should come before everything and, if they don't, you are not going to protect them from his choices. That is up to him. Sod him, in other words! Everything about him is selfish, from what you are saying. So you would probably be better off thinking about what will happen if he does depart. You need a plan B. Sorry to say it (yet not, if that makes sense). You are stronger than you think. I suggest you start thinking about a future without this joker in your immediate household because as things stand, he may as well not be there.

Do take care,


Helen

[jools]

Hi Anne
Sorry you're in this position. We're all here empathising with you cos we've walked similar paths. Just want to agree with a lot of what Helen's said and offer some hope (though maybe not the kind you'd hoped for).

Why should I have continued in a relationship with a negative, unsupportive, emotionless, unambitionless man? We were not on the same page. There was no point. He had made up his mind that I was not worth the fight,


I think you are prolonging the agony worrying about his departure. He will probably depart because he is selfish.

You are stronger than you think. I suggest you start thinking about a future without this joker in your immediate household because as things stand, he may as well not be there.

An that just about sums it up! I think my H would have hung on for years - but I don't think there would have been any improvement. As Helen said - it would just have prolonged the agony. What you fear is the awful process where you find yourself alone and consumed by the most awful pain imaginable. As bad as it is now - it will feel worse when he goes - but not for ever. And that's what i've learnt. You won't sleep, you'll lose weight, cry endless tears, feel as low as it's possible to feel BUT you will then start to gradually recover. I'm only 5 months down the line, but i'm already starting to feel better. I sleep like a baby, have put some of the weight back on and i'm actually enjoying my own space and time. Could have a relapse at any time cos it's early days - BUT I can see that this is a process that will lead to me eventually being happier. No more twisted guts, feeling like i'm in limbo, just going round in circles.

I feared for how my daughters would take it - but they've been brilliant. Told me they prefer it this way. More relaxed atmosphere in the house. So I guess what i'm trying to say is that you're right to fear the pain of him going - it is excruciating - but at least it's going somewhere. I've done it now - the worst is over. Onwards and upwards!
Jools. XXXXXXX
________
WEED VAPORIZERS (http://weedvaporizers.org/)

[Annie2]

Hello Everyone,
I have been thinking a lot today about this thread and I feel that my opinion is very different from the other replies. I believe that right now Anne is in a very ridiculous and unfair situation. Like Anne, my husband was behaving in an extrememely selfish and very un-sorry way. Everyone but him and his tart were to blame. He tried many different 'options' such as 'I'll come back but I'm still in love' and 'I'll come back but if things don't work I'll go back to her'. Like Anne I felt trapped. I desperately wanted my marriage to work and I still clung to the love I HAD felt for him.

To cut a very long and painful story short we are now together 8 months since his affair. All the crap he previously sprouted has gone and he is deeply ashamed and very, very sorry. For me it was about sticking to my guns. Not accepting his rubbish while he was still in denial and very confused. It was hard, very painful and exhausting. But what kept me going was believing in my rights to fairness and happiness. Not making do or putting up with. For him it was a slow and terrifying process towards realisation and admission.

What I am trying to say is that only Anne knows her own instincts and her husband. She is the only one who can decide just what she can live with. I completely appreciate that past experiences for others (it;s the same for me) make them feel strongly about similar situations. However, everyone is different and Anne's experience and entire marriage can not be summed up on a few postings. Only she can take on board others opinions and lessons and match that to her own needs and her current situation. But on this thread there is strong advice to leave him against my experience of not doing that. All I say Anne is that you may not be ready to make any HUGE decision right now -leave or stay. My advice would be to think only of yourself, get yourself strong and in a place where you can think clearly and make and stick to the decision that feels right for you. Although I am still with my husband he knows that I am not yet ready to say whether that will be forever. I am living each day as it comes and seeing if I think I can eventually trust him again. It's not easy but divorce didn't feel like an option either to me.

The other postings suggest that their decisions were right for them and I am sure that when they were made they had got to that place and time when they could stick to it. This is a lifetime decision and not one that should be made while emotions and circumstances are all out of control.

Wishing you all well,
Annie xx

[Helen]

Annie,

I think it is great that you are offering the other side of the coin - an alternative to leaving. But let me ask you this: how many times did your husband cheat on you? And who did he cheat with? Was it someone that you considered a friend or was it some nameless, faceless woman?

I think what we are saying here is sometimes, you have to look at not only the cheating but who a partner is cheating with. Not only that, but you have to look at their behaviour in the aftermath. Anne's husband has shown not one jot of regret over the affairs. Not really. He also cheated with someone that Anne considered a friend. That is a flagrant lack of respect because goodness knows what he was talking to this woman about but you can be sure that he was not describing Anne in flattering terms. Yes, he said he was a s*** for doing what he did but it was delivered in a way that said 'yeah I am a s***, so what?'. He has offered no reassurances regarding his future fidelity, which tells me he will cheat again because things are still as they were. In other words Anne is still sick, she is still (no doubt) stuggling with her weight and the kids are still there. He just wasn't there for Anne in the clinch (i.e when she became ill). Instead he chucks money at the problem and seems to think that this is enough. I suspect Anne does not know the full extent of his dalliances either. Not only that but she has said that he doesn't seem to want to be around her and the kids. So what exactly is she trying to rescue and how exactly do you rescue this when the man you are with isn't interested in counselling or anything else?

I accept Anne may decide to be tough and wait this thing out. The only question has to be 'to what end?'. Is her husband going to be truly sorry? Is he ever going to be there for her and the kids? Is he going to accept her illness and weight gain? Will he work with Anne to get the marriage back on track? I suspect not because, as stated, he hasn't been honest with Anne yet about the reasons for his affairs. He also isn't 'available' to her and is showing no interest in being available. Money seems to be the only thing on offer. He doesn't even have time for her.

As you say, it is ultimately up to Anne to decide what she can live with. Me? I would say goodbye because this man is too much like my ex. Unable to deal with illness, despite marital vows and off for the first available piece of front the minute my libido waned. The fact is, autoimmune disease does have an effect on a woman's sex drive. So I guess Anne needs to decide if she can live with the knowledge that her husband will seek sex elsewhere when her sex drive disappears. Because it will, periodically. I couldn't and I don't see why any woman should. After all, there should be more to a marriage than sex on tap (in sickness and in health strikes a chord; responsibilities to his kids (outside money) strikes another one) and if this is what her husband expects, then he might as well be single and seeing prostitutes.

My view.


Helen

[wysi]

Hello Anne & everyone,
all of us say things here which are based on our own experiences, and what we have got from reading about other people. Looking back on my situation I realise that even when my ex was saying "sorry" and pretending to try to make things work, he never really felt remorse and a real acceptance of what he had done to me. Without that understanding I don't think there is any hope for a relationship to survive betrayal. Although I don't want to be on my own, as I am now, and have a lot of very bad times, I do know that I prefer this to living with some-one who lies to me. When I feel lonley in the evenings I just try to hold on to the fact that it's better than waiting for some-one who doesn't come home, or who comes home to me after having sex with some-one else.

I wish you all a peaceful week.

[Annie2]

hello again everyone,

Please understand that I completely agree that Anne's husband is not a man to be trusted right now. His behaviour is far, far from acceptable. He is showing no signs of being sorry or indeed of wanting or knowing how to repair the damage that HE did. The fact that he did it more than once is very worrying. He got away with it first and then figured he could do it again. To do it with Anne's friend is just cruel. A double betrayal. But would it have been better if it was a nameless person? I'm not sure. Just doing it at all is the thing. Don't get me wrong as I do believe it must have hurt even more as this was Anne's friend but it wasn't just him, this 'friend' played a part in that too.

I strongly feel that Anne should not condone his behaviour at all right now and based on how he has been and is behaving Anne can not believe he will change. However, and here comes my however, whatever decision Anne makes should be done at her own pace. I began divorce proceedings after my husband had an affair because he was far from behaving sorry or showing any attempt to help fix our marriage. He was doing more damage (controlling, intimidating me and at one point I had to call the police after he smashed in my window, everyone but his tart and him were to blame). It was his first affair but he had broken my trust for years by hitting me for 17 years, constantly telling me I was ruining his life and much more. When I was extremely ill after my first child he couldn't be bothered coming into hospital when the midwife phoned him, he was having his dinner. I had many miscarriages and very difficult pregnancies and he gave me not one ounce of support. After his affair he blamed those times as being very stressful for HIM. I had left him twice before when after being physically agressive I just felt overwhelmed with unhappiness. I went back to him and to promises of him changing but it never happened. I couldn't ever have believed he would change or that he would even realise what he had done and what he was doing. But he did. I am so glad that I stuck to my guns and didn't accept his behaviour because that led to him changing. Deep down he wanted the marriage to work but he was out of control and had no idea what to do. He had just done something sooo repulsive that to admit it and face himself was much too painful. But he did.

I think what I am trying to say is that you have to take into account each day. You have to measure up what he has done and what he is doing. It's far from looking hopeful for Anne. Therefore she needs to make a decision. But Anne has said she loves her husband as I did. I just want to tell Anne that even after divorce, even years later everyone can change. Everyone CAN change but not all do.

Anyway I think I've rambled a bit and probably not made much sense. I just worry that while Anne is in turmoil she needs to hear all sides.
At the end of the day Anne isn't going to base her decision on others experiences and it will be on her own. So I would hope it helps to hear two sides to the story. Until Anne changes for herself, until she becomes much stronger and far more loving of herself and her needs she will not find it easy to stick at a decision. If she is half and half, loving him but unable to put up with him I worry that she won't stick at a decision and therefore will back down completely. She needs to build herself up completely first and while she is doing that he will not be able to behave in the same way. She will be much more able to say and act on what is acceptable and unacceptable. If divorce is the answer then she will find it easier to stick with it. I worry that many women (speaking about some people I know) feel that divorce is the only answer and do it but never fully recover from what has happened. They remain bitter that they felt they had no choice. It's getting to point in realising that you do have a choice and making it. Being able to hold your head up and believe in yourself for making the right choice (like Helen) but I just sense Anne might not be there yet. And perhaps hearing two sides is a little less like feeling she has no choice.

Best wishes to all,
Annie xx

[Anne22]

Thank you everyone for all your comments - both sides of the coin help me to gather confidence and also help know that that there may be a way forward! Or Not!!!

Annie - thank you so much for showing me that there can be a glimmer of hope - not that I have decided anything yet - I know I have a long road to tread!!! Sometimes it is important to get other sides to the coin - I must admit that one of the reasons I have not posted before but read this site several times was (please no-one take this as directed at them!!) that there often seemed to be a bitterness to some people who have been wronged and divorce was the only answer!!!

I have issues with this as I understand that what my H did was wrong and especially as I have been ill, however I do strongly believe that he is not as intellectual as some - dont get me wrong he is in a very senior role at work is paid shed loads of money, but he is definatly missing a piece of the puzzle.

His family do not show their true feelings or discuss 'life issues' he has never been taught these things and he himself admits he is very cold to things and cant understand why! Of course he knows what is right and wrong and he says now he knows he had ruined everything. I feel he has been slipping down a path and is grappling to get himself back upright! His health is not as good as it used to be before I confronted him and he has said he has not been happy for a long time and wants happiness. He says I deserve better but although he says this he doesnt seem to be trying with me. To be fair he has tried to be more 'there' for the kids - ie taking half term off - and says they mean the world to him.

He is a thinker and seems to come back later with his thoughts!!

I told him I thought he was cheap and unclassy and never thought he would lower himself to have even considered sleeping with this so called friend knowing her background!!! He says he still cant reason with why he did it other than 'it was on a plate' - pathetic I know but I think he thought what I didnt know wont hurt me - he admitted he probably would never have told me - shame as this I really felt sad about. But then again he went back to her for the second time!!

I could sort of understand if I had really rejected all his advances in the bedroom - believe me it was very hard knowing what I knew, but I didnt. Also just to let you know I have a good sex drive - my disease has taken its toll at times, but often especially over the past couple of years - I would havbe dearly loved more sex! I admit my self esteem is crap and I allow myself to come last with everything at home - I know this is not good. There has always been this understanding that I can do my hobbies during the day when the kids are at school as he is away in the evening alot so I could not commit to anything regular inthe evenings!

Although our sex life hasnt ever been really fantastic - it has still exisited! He has never talked or asked me what I like in bed, but he bought me a 'vibrator' and a feather boa for part of a birthday present just before I confronted him! I cant understand this behaviour!!!! I instantly thought one of the many girls in the office set him up to get it for me. ANyway I would never have bought one myself and all I can say is THANKS!!!!! He He - sorry to give you these details .................

Sorry I am rambling on .............................one thing I also wanted to say was that the one feeling I have not experienced as yet is anger - I do not feel angry at all - sad, disappointed, distraught, scared, sick, anxious, lonely and very hurt but not anger - I cant understand why not!!!!

Perhaps as I said before - I still love him and although am not happy to continue as things are, perhaps I am still hoping to put this all behind us and he will keep his promised to me to not do it again - but can he?

Annie - I hope you see this message!

[Annie2]

Oh Anne I am soooo pleased you understood what I was trying to say. It's not about condoning or instant and unconditional forgiveness it's just about having the FULL picture. Like your husband my husband is emotionally stunted. He supresses everything, if something makes him feel bad he attacks it by blaming someone else. There is only so long a person can go on like that because they are in denial and deep down they know they are not nice and have a problem. It takes an enormously strong person to turn all that around and actually want to change the hard way. The hard way is looking at everything he has done, admitting it and not feeling anything but ****ty about it.

The only way my husband could do that was realising I was not going to take a second more. And this time I meant it. I switched off, I stuck my heels in and I thought only of getting to an emotionally stable and strong place. This means riding through all the pain, being completely honest with him and you about everything and everytime he has let you down and hurt you. You can not protect him. The more I poured it all out the more I realised just how much he had done. The more he heard the more he could no longer hide from. It was all there out in the open. And I told everyone because like you I used to keep it all in. He needs to be seen for what he has done and he needs to recognise that he dislikes who HE is not you. Then and only then can he start to rebuild himself, but that is his doing and his responsibility to himself. Then you can both be clear on what you want. I don't imagine for one minute that someone who has done so many wrong things just simply thinks it's ok. I think they can deny and pretend so that they don't think they are that bad. It is only when they truely admit to themselves what they have done that they really want to change.

You might not feel angry. I felt quite angry sometimes but it wasn't my main and most powerful emotion. I think when you have just had so much to deal with anger is just self-destructive and not helpful. While you are so busy looking for a way to repair your bad feelings anger doesn't help. You certainly have a right to be angry but sometimes knowing that is the main thing. The actual anger is just another emotion and one that can hinder communication and healing. But that might just be me, everyone deals with things according to their own needs.

Of course there is hope. There is absolute hope and certainty that you are going to survive this. Within that hope there are several different outcomes to your marriage. It's not hoping for one thing and only one thing, it's holding on to you surviving this and becoming a much happier person. You are finally going to sort out and sift through everything that has made you unhappy and that can only lead to a happiness you have never known before. I never thought that would be found with my husband but I now have hope for that, not certainty just hope. Everyone is different and it's a whole learning curve for you. You may get to the point where your hope is the opposite of mine, but that will be right for you. No two people are the same and no two situations are the same. The only thing you can do Anne is to live each day for you in the most honest way you can that meets YOUR needs, not his. You need to address everything he has done because I will bet half of it he doesn't even know hurt you.

Thank you for not being confused by my earlier posts!
Sending you a hug,
Annie xx

[Helen]

Hi Anne and Annie,

I agree that some people are too fast to go for divorce. It isn't always the right answer. For me, it was because of who my ex had his affair with. Annie, you asked if it made a difference who a spouse has an affair with? For me, it did. I think we are all entitled to have some secrets. Certainly, I would not expect my spouse to divulge information about me to another woman and especially not to a woman who knows me. But he did. Ultimately, it wasn't the fact that he had sex with this woman that got to me (though it was a shock - I actually threw up repeatedly when I found out). It was the knowledge that he had told her things about me - deeply private, personal things - that I found impossible to accept. All I could say to him, over and over, is 'why did it have to be with her'?

In looking at a family member/friend vs a stranger, I would have coped better if he had shared those secrets with a woman I didn't know and didn't care about. I showed that woman nothing but kindness and all the time she was saying hello to me and chatting to me when we bumped into each other, she was involved with my ex. It was the hypocrisy, the lies and the humiliation of knowing my husband was out hand in hand with this woman yards from our home. Everyone knows he is married to me and there were several raised eyebrows when he was spotted canoodling with this woman - by my adult nephew, no less. After we divorced, I told my ex that if he had had his affair with anyone else - and I mean anyone else - I would have forgiven him. And I would have. But here is the rub - my ex didn't want to be forgiven. He made no effort to try to work things out. He didn't even apologise for breaking up 2 families. He said there was no point because he didn't see how I could ever forgive him. That is why we ended up divorcing. That and the fact that he refused to talk about the marital problems that drove him to have the affair in the first place and he refused to go to marriage counselling. He also refused to stop contacting my former sister in law - he said he 'felt responsible for her'. At no point did he talk about his responsibilities to me and our son. Basically, he left me no choice other than divorce because we had reached a stalemate.

I see a lot of parallels in Anne's account of life with her husband. My ex adores our son and was always there for him. But he was and is an incredibly insular person. Emotionally repressed and manipulative, although his public face was always 'Mr nice guy'. People who know both of us are in a state of shock - they had no idea he would be capable of doing what he did. My friend of 25 years standing said if anyone had suggested he would cheat, she would have fought them. She cried her eyes out when she found out - it was a huge shock for her too.

Anne, when you talk about your husband not being an intellectual, are you saying that his upbringing has left him unable to talk through issues in the relationship? If so, my ex was the same. The problem for me was that although my ex knew I was deeply unhappy in our marriage, he couldn't bring himself to talk about our issues. If I tried, he would throw a tantrum and break things. He also reacted like a little boy and said I was always picking on him. He couldn't bring himself to go to counselling either because I don't think he could bear what might emerge. What really hurts is we loved each other deeply at one point and I found his refusals to try to repair our relationship incredibly hard to take. Yet I hung in there, hoping that one day he would agree to work with me on our marriage. He never did. The worst thing (for me) was despite the fact that our relationship wasn't working, I still loved him. I just couldn't believe he could do what he did to me.

Anne, in terms of the anger, it might come later on. I suspect that you are grieving at the moment. After all, bar a few ups and downs, you thought you had a reasonably solid marriage. Denial, grief and anger are the usual emotions when you find out about something like this. I think the real challenge for you is going to be trying to get your husband to open up. Not just about the affair but also about your relationship. I tried and tried to get my ex to open up to me, for 20 years, and I did not succeed. I hope you have better success with your husband than I did with mine.

I think I have twittered on enough. Do take care,


Helen

[Anne22]

Dear Annie & Helen

Once again thank you for your thoughts - I still cant believe I am talking about this to anyone!!!! The weight that I can honestly say has lifted off my shoulders to know I have shared 'the secret'.. I am definatley feeling a little stronger although stil shakey!!!

My h says time will tell - or heal - I just dont know how patient I am prepared to be anymore!!!

I felt that you Annie seem to be marrried to the same beast!!!! Strange but a few things you

[Helen]

Anne,

your husband is partly right. Time will heal but only effort will tell. The question is how much effort is he prepared to make? Because your marriage will not right itself without effort on both your parts and taking the week off at half-term, although appreciated, just isn't going to cut it as a longer term solution.


Helen

[Annie2]

Hello all,

Time is a healer is such a boring and granny statement. But, and I hate saying it, it's true. Helen is absolutely right taking a week off at half term is great but far, far from enough. You need your husband to give you the moon and the stars if you want them right now. But if you are realistic he is not going to do that. We are talking about a man who has got it sooo soooo wrong and who hasn't even woken up yet. I don't believe he realises the consequences of what he has done. You need to give it all to him. You need to spell out every bit of hurt, disgust, and betrayal you have felt for all this time. No holding back. This is a man who has been avoiding and hiding from all truth. Truth about what he did, why he did it and what it has done. You are in the position to show and tell him. He, if he can help it, is not going to get it.
And here comes the time bit. It's too much for him to take on board because basically you are about to describe someone he looks down on, someone who is so horrible and disgusting but guess what it's him. How much is that going to hurt him? It's going to take him a bit of time because for each offence (and there are plenty) he is going to come up with a million ways to somehow lighten the blow. After running out of those excuses, lies and 'reasonings' he will only then be able to take full responsibility and it won't be pleasant. This will take time.

Likewise, for you. His 'offerings' or efforts will be far, far too little. Nothing will make up for what he has done. No change is going to work right now and most changes will go unnoticed. But, say in 5 months time, just some of the things he does might be enough for you to allow another month of allowing him the chance to do some more. Nothing he does will 'cover' what he has done and it never will. But what you need is for him to change, for him to get to the point where he 'wants' to do these things, not just feel he ought to as a token. It's seeing his want that will hold more weight than his actual actions. So it's a bit of both, effort and time. Lots of effort but over time. He can't do it in a day, week or month or even a year. He has destroyed something forever. Your patience will only expand through time and effort from him. As I have said before you can only do one day at a time. But don't stop working on you, you need to give all your time to you right now. So he is working at the near impossible, you ignoring his efforts or not trusting them. Him realising that nothing will ever be enough and you reminding him of all the hurt and pain while he wants to move on from that. If somehow you both get through all that and each of you hang in there, then your marriage has a hope of working. I can't believe how far I've come and how I am still here but I'm so glad I am. There were many times I almost gave up but something stopped me.
It's when you get to stage where you will give up and that is that. Then you can say you gave it a go. By that time you may even have more understanding, rather than all the confusion and ridiculous bits surrounding his affairs.
Once again just offering the other side......

You could be right about our lost at birth twin husbands, I was thinking that too.

Take care,
Annie xx

[Anne22]

Thanks for that you two - Helen - just to let you know that his being here over the 1/2 term was a big thing for him - strange isnt it!!! You would think he couldnt wait to be here - funny man!!!! I do believe he has always put more importance on his job - he is so screwed up I think!!! I used to think wouldnt it be great if he were made redundant just to show him how shallow and unimportant a job can be compared to family!!! A strange thing for me to think when it would cause us grief with less money coming in!!

I have often thought that he would wake up one of these days and realise the kids have grown up and gone and he will have missed all the good bits!!!! I have said this to him recently and he looked really hurt!!!! It felt good!!! How horrible am I for admittting that!!! In a way I have wanted to shock him!!

Annie - I wonder if men like ours come from some sort of Cloning!!!! (is that how you spell it?) :D

This evening following my last few postings to you both and reading your posts in return I seem to have been stronger and tonight I told him in no uncertain terms I was not having him treat me badly and putting me down in front of the children!!!! He seemed angry at first that I should stand up to him and his arrogance, but it seemed to work - he went out of his way to speak to me about a few things and I just told him I was busy and he would have to talk to me tomorrow!!! Talk about giving him some of his own medicine!!! I realise that I have put up with too much disrespect!!

This new found me after such a few days is suprising/inspiring me - thank you both so much

Anne xx

[Anne22]

Annie

I cant believe you said this "Like your husband my husband is emotionally stunted. He supresses everything, if something makes him feel bad he attacks it by blaming someone else"

This is exactly like my H - I always seem to be blamed for everything - his is always right and comes across very self important!

Sometimes he suprises my daughter by his arrogance and she says "Oh dad - you think you are always right"

When I was at school (dare I say it with him!!) we used to call people like that BIGHEADS!!!! Funny he never used to be like this!!

Anne xx

[Annie2]

BIGHEADS!!! Anne you are too polite!!

Take care and keep working on that attitude girl!

Anniexx