How do you try again?

[jojo58]

Its only been 2 weeks since I found out about my husbands affair after 22 years of a happy marriage. After much screaming and shouting I realised how much I cared for him, and he says he loves me and wants to try again. However he admitted to falling in love with the other woman (in the space of 2 months.) This has hit me hard. What I can't get out of my head is what value is his love when he gives it so freely . When we met it took him nearly a year to say he loved me, and in the 22 years he had to be asked before attempting a pathetic romantic/intimate sentence . Yet through the text messages to the other woman he suddenly found his romantic and intimate voice. This and the thought of what the two of them did intimately is driving me nuts. Did he also do all the things with her that he didn't want to do with me over 22 years. How can try again with all this between us?

[Annie2]

Jojo,

I am so sorry you are having such a horrible and hard time. You must feel exhausted and confused.

I hope it will help you to share my experience with you because I feel you and your husband are in the same situation my husband and I were in 8months ago. My husband had an affair (the biggest shock of my life we had been together for 17years and were coming up for our 10yr wedding anniversary). He told me about it and also told me he didn't want to make our marriage work he was in love. This feeling he got was so powerful it was enough to confuse him for quite sometime. Every so often he would say he wanted to make the marriage work but he was in love so he couldn't see how he could. Eventually he began to come to reality (an affair is not reality it is fantasy or escapism) and measured up his 6week affair against our 17 year relationship and 3 children. The reality that hit him was quite something. But he was confused as to why he had an affair, what it meant and what she meant to him. Like you I wasn't. Six weeks is not enough to get to know someone, to share years of experiences and so on to fully have love together, trust and security. It was a relationship based on lies, sneaking around, betrayal and destruction - not an ideal relationship. There was NO value to it and it wasn't a relationship he should have given freely to. So NO value and his big mistake to think he could give freely. In hindsight my husband says he was struggling because deep down he knew it was wrong but the 'high yet unreal' feelings he got numbed the 'wrong' feelings. It was the feelings that it was 'wrong' that were real. Those feelings if he had let them surface would not have made his affair the exciting escape that he believed it was.


To cut to the present. My husband like yours never showed me much love or expressed romanticly love to me. We never had all the candles, flowers and so on that I suspect he had with her. My husband through much thinking, counselling and talking to me has now realised that it wasn't about her. He was unhappy, at first he blamed our marriage and me, but through counselling realised it was himself. Why else would he be trying to change? It's not YOU your husband tried to change it was HIM. The other woman was placed on a pedastal but it may as well have been anyone because it was the feelings that he was 'in love' with not her. Lets face it, what kind of a woman encourages someone to lie and cheat - a selfish person who can't get enough attention from single men.

Your husband and mine might as well have been drug users because that was all they got from the affair. A drug that numbed, lied, and hid them from reality. Why do people use drugs, why do they become addicted? Because reality is too hard for them. They have problems and choose that road not US. So what do you think of a recovering addict? Someone who has battled and chosen to sort him/herself out. You can't help but admire them and notice their new strength and behaviour. They can only choose to do it by themselves. My husband chose to sort himself out and rejected the 'drug' that is where I find my love for him that he did that and is doing that. It takes strength and a lot of horrible and hard work. But in the end he not only did it for himself he has done it for me too. Your husband is choosing to do that, he hasn't done it yet, your choice is whether to help him by giving him the chance with you. There is nothing you can yet do to change or do things differently from before. It's all down to him at the moment and you have enough to deal with without having to do any more for him.

I couldn't understand why my husband (just like you) could have found his romantic voice for someone else. But he explained it by saying (eventually -he explained it many other ways until he got to this) that he lived in a world that was based on escapism, in his real world he found it hard to do that (not about me just about him). He needed to live in fantasy land to do it. What does that tell you? It wasn't real, deep down he knew it and wasn't comfortable with it (he was lying and knew it). What your husband had with you was REAL and he knows it.

Jojo, I really feel for you because I recognise how far I have come and how hard it all was. All I can say is that whatever happens this way you will get peace and understanding. If your marriage ended now then you would live never watching your husband come to his realisation and you would be stuck believing him while he is still confused. I guarantee it he is still confused. He has just done something so terrible and part of him will be in hiding, to admit it won't feel nice for him. Remember he has just been escaping from the real world (an affair helps you do this) and now he is back to reality. He may behave like a caged lion under attack, justifying everything and making it sound better and bigger than it was (he will get to the point where he realises it was a disgusting, degrading part of his life which makes him feel like ****).

If I could go back 8months I would change only this - look after yourself and don't spend so much energy on your husband. Insist that he offer you some reasurrance as to where he is, what time he will be home and that he sticks to it. You have taken on enough and you need to do things at your pace. Ask him all the questions you want. Screaming and shouting is fine from you - he needs to realise this and it's his job to keep calm. You need to vent it. You may feel like you take one step forward and two steps back a lot of the time. It is normal to feel like giving up - when the pain gets too much and you are overwhelmed its natural to want to get rid of that. But you may find yourself ploughing on and realising that you are not giving up.

You must find another outlet, keep busy and try as much as you can to keep your mind off it. Easier said than done but it can work.

Counselling is so important either individually or together. We went as a couple and then individually. Your husband will not be able to hide when put infront of an impartial third party. Ask him again in counselling to confirm that his affair is over, he won't be able to lie. Keep asking. My husband lied, although he wasn't still sleeping with her, he was in contact and wanted her to remain a friend. Good grief!

Keep posting on this site and use it to vent out your feelings.
Look after yourself JoJo you are far from alone and your husband is one of many who choose that road to escape. You by choosing to stick at your marriage despite what HE has done are the strong one. He was weak and as my counsellor said the inadequacies are with him not YOU.

Read postings about the 'other woman' and you will see that you have nothing to feel threatened by. Your husband sunk to the all time low not reached the sky.

Good luck JoJo, look after yourself and be less critical of you. You didn't do this, it was nothing to do with you. Its hard to seperate you and your husband into different people as you feel joined when married for so long. But you always have been seperate and the shock of realising that is huge not to mention how different you are.
Try and remember what ever he is saying about his affair is early days, he is just trying to justify it.

All the best,
Annie xx

[Annie2]

Jojo,

As if I haven't written enough but I just had a thought. I live next door to the most delightful elderly couple. You know the type, in their 70s and still holding hands. One day the lady found me in the garden crying and distressed. I felt ashamed to tell her why (ridiculous but I did) when I eventually told her she threw her arms around me. Her husband had an affair 30years ago. The same thing thinking he was in love. They too went through it and they are still together.
Whatever happens Jojo you are about to rediscover who you are seperate to your marriage. Your husband is about to identify why he finds it difficult to express his feelings. The feelings he expressed in his affair were NOT real. If they were he wouldn't want to stay with you. You must hang on to that. He may still believe he was 'in love' but try asking him what 'love' means. I bet he hasn't a clue. He may have lost sight of that or he may never have appreciated it. He is going to start though, YOU by sticking with him are showing him what love is. Not the other woman who showed him lies and deceit, it is YOU that will help him understand what love is. In return he must and will face up to what he has done and what he must do now. It was never about 'not wanting' to do things with you. It was about not being able to. Nothing to do with YOU all about HIM. HE couldn't do those things and could only do them under a pretence (his affair) and while lying. That is what he needs to address, why HE finds it hard to express his feelings. He expressed them in an affair because he was pretending, living a lie. In reality and now faced with reality he needs to work out what his problem is. It is not YOU and you will eventually hear that from him.

Sorry to harp on but I wish someone had told me in the beginning some of that. It might mean nothing now but I promise it will in the near future.

Take care,
Annie

[Annie2]

So sorry, just me again. Realised that the other woman your husband had the affair with was not single. But this is even more proof as to how unreal everything was. A completely ridiculous 'relationship' between two people living a lie. They shed their own real lives and responsibilities but real life was too hard for them. There are reasons for that. Your husband just needs to work those out. But the one proof you have is that it is not you, why else would he still want you. He wants REAL life with YOU not the lie. He just hasn't worked how to do it and that his 'feelings' of being 'in love' were not real. He is confused. But he is making the choice for REAL and that is a start, he just doesn't yet get what that means and what his affair was. But surely his choice is a huge step to understanding all of that. It's his heart being honest and making the choice now he just has to sort out his very muddled head which can only be done slowly and with time.
As for trust. I can't answer that one yet. All I can say is that you have a choice for only you to make. You can give him a chance and take the risk but ultimately that is your choice. There are no guarantees that it will not happen again (there are things you and he will be able to do to try and make sure it doesn't) but then there were no guarantees before that it wouldn't happen. This is your choice and all you can do is see if it works. If it doesn't, you are not to blame or a fool, you are someone who tried to make their marriage work and who showed true love by doing so in the circumstances. Trust will take a long time to build up again. Start with trust about the little things such as him sticking to promises like coming home early or going to counselling. Remember how hard this is for him too (not that he deserves any sympathy) he is not only facing up to himself he is having his family take stock of him too. He won't change overnight and you may find it hard to notice changes because of how you are feeling you may expect something huge to fill the enormous emptiness inside you. Everything will take time and everything should become less of a struggle.
Right I really am going to do my housework now!
Annie xx

[jojo58]

Dear Annie,
Many many thanks for your open replies. They have helped me tremendously.I must admit I had started to wonder if I was the only woman in the world who still believed that it was worth staying in the relationship.The fact that he is now seeking psychological help to sort out his problems is a first step.Thanks for giving me the tip not to spend too much energy on him. However my instinct is to do exactly that . Its part of loving him... confusing isn't it. I have also started writing a journal to gather my thoughts. I used to write one daily from the age of 13 until I met my husband in my early twenties, when the need seemed to vanish. This along with listening to the "Blues" which my husband hated so I gave up, at the time it didn't seem such a big thing. He is away at the moment and I know he is not with her, but I still am not sure whether they will start communicating again. I found out about the affair because of text messages, he didn't delete. Now he is more careful with his mobile.
Today is one of the better days... Well I have to go and feed the kids. Many Many thanks and I hope all goes well in your relationship and that when we are 70 we can be like your neighbour.
Jojo

[Annie2]

Jojo,
Promise to keep it shorter this time! I'm so glad to hear your husband is having professional help. It should help a lot. But what about you? I find counselling so helpful. Some weeks I find myself just talking about how untidy the house is or the fact my kids have been living off of frozen food since their dad had an affair! Obviously I do talk about the affair and how I feel about it. It's also good to be able to talk so freely without having to worry that my husband will be uncomfortable with what I am saying. Whatever is on my mind it just pours out and feel so much better.

It's funny how much we give up because someone else takes priority and then even more after children. Like your blues music and writing in a journal. It is so important that you regain some part of you back. I felt I completely lost my identity when my husband had his affair. I felt labeled by him and the rest of the world. But you are in there somewhere, not mum or wife or collegue or friend, just you. I'm glad you are writing in your journal again. My counsellor recommended me to do just that.

You have to decide whether he is more 'careful' with his mobile or whether simply there is nothing there. Does he leave it lying around? He needs to accept that he has broken your trust and he has to earn that again. It's not about policing him it's about you graciously giving him a chance and him taking appropriate measures to prove himself. He can not rely on the understanding and loving wife that has always supported him, it's his turn to do and be all that as a husband. It would be nice if he could offer some simple and little ways of gaining your trust. My husband was horrified by the idea and put up quite a fight when I suggested him letting me know what time he would be home from work. Eventually he was the one offering and doing everything he could to reassure me. By that time I was no longer bothered! But when it comes down to it trust has to be built up again over time. Each time he offers his reassurane or you feel you can trust him it will build up. There may be more times you feel you can't at first but this should get better.

If he is away at the moment it is bound to be a bit of an uncertain feeling for you. And I'm sure when he returns you will also feel a bit unsure. It's perfectly natural and you need to tune into why and what you are feeling. Stop worrying about his reactions because you will condition yourself into suppressing everything and putting you last and him first. When you have been lied to and betrayed you often loose the ability to even trust yourself, your own instincts. You need to start working on that again before you even start trying to trust him. But start with the little things first. You are a mother and your instinct will be pretty good anyway. If he loves you he will have to accept you need a lot of time and patience.

If his affair is over there should NO communication of any sort. My husband didn't understand this part and was updating her on my every move, feeling and meetings with my lawyer. And this is the big hurdle for you. You have every right to ask him whether he was in contact with her and to keep asking. Don't ever think you sound paranoid and don't ever let him suggest it. He lied and lied and you have no way of knowing unless you either hire a private dectective or simply ask.

It's easy to worry about the future because it feels so uncertain but you can only do one day at a time. You will burn out trying to do more.

Not so short after all! You take lots of care and keep posting at every new step you take.
Off to raid the freezer!

Annie xx

[Rachel]

Hi Jojo
This is to Annie too, I have read your posts and can totally relate to both your experiences, my husband cheated on me with my best friend ( so I thought !) at the time . We too got back together and although it has by no means been easy, he has contacted her many times and met up with her ( not to continue the affair but the addiction was too strong to cut contact ) and she was also VERY manipulative and emotionally blackmailing . I just want to encourage you Jojo to keep going you obviously love him very much, and we don't always see how much until we are faced with loosing them . I love the story of those old folk next door I hope that will be us too one day. it has been 3 1/2 years since my husbands affair and i still struggle because she is still around but as she has been a mad woman it has turned him against her ( which is always a bonus ) . But for us to put this all behind us we have had to talk every thing through and to totally be honest wth each other even if we know the truth will hurt.

Mobile phones have been the worst thing for me and the hardest thing to trust him with but it does come just give it time.

Rachel xx

[Annie2]

Hello Rachel and Jojo,

It's so good to hear we are not alone and that our emotions and experiences seem normal based on that of others in the same situation.

I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience Rachel it can't have been easy for you.

I just wondered if anyone had also had this part of the bad experience: my husband slept with me while he was having his affair. He comes up with various explanations; it felt right, I thought we would eventually be ok and so on. But it's very confusing for me. I'm not sure how to feel about it. Firstly I felt sooooo used and disgusted and worried as he had unprotected sex with his tart. But now as I am trying to move on I just don't know how to feel.

Any comments would be hugely appreciated.
Annie xx

[jojo58]

Dear Annie and Rachel,
I thought I had replied, but I don't see it in the thread, so here goes again.
Many thanks for your replies, they have really helped, I am just so sorry you have had to go through this aswell.The sad part was I thought we had such a good life together.

Thanks for sharing your experiences about counselling. This is what my friends are currently telling me I should do for myself. I feel I need to calm myself down first, and see how the counselling is helping my husband. I am sceptical of counselling as what lead up to this affair was that about 6 months ago we started experiencing our first ever marital crisis. This escalated to full scale rows and us realising that something was not right. We both decided to seek counselling but my husband was keen and organised it. My husband accused me of not opening up , and tried to make me feel guilty. It was exactly at this time he started to have the affair. So you can imagine how doubly betrayed I feel.

My husband also slept with me during this time and we were trying to get closer... Therefore I am very angry that I now have to demean myself and go for an STD checkup, but this cannot be put off.

In terms of mobiles... I wonder how many marriages they have ruined. Since this has happened my husband decided that he would have 2 phones. 1 Private , 1 for work. The work number is the one which was used for the contact . Since I am nosy I have managed to check these out on occasions... (I'm not too proud of the methods).
However the Private one as expected has only family messages and calls registered, the work one has all msgs and calls deleted. What interpretation can I put on that . I will have to tell him how this looks.
This is one thing I have managed. I have decided that I will ask direct questions regarding any thoughts I get in my head about the other woman and the affair. That way I get an answer, reaction, or a "its too early to discuss this". At least he is reminded of what is going on and how it affects me. For some reason this helps.
This is the positive side of him not moving out.

The children are finding it extremely hard as the other woman was the mother of their best friend and they were very close to her from toddler age (they are now 14 &16), so its a betrayal of them also. I am having to remind my husband that he has to talk and open up to them as they don't trust him and their world has also crashed down. They don't know who to trust anymore.


What I try and remember is what Annie said, I am REAL and the other woman was a Fantasy.
What I want is to be his reality and fantasy. Is it too much to ask?

As you may have noticed I'm not online every day as I "try" and work, but am most appreciative of your replies.

Jojo

[Annie2]

Hello Jojo,

I may be totally off the mark here but two things struck me about your last posting. The first being that your husband initiated counselling before and the second that when you both identified problems you argued. Just reading into it (and please take it with a pinch of salt) but I wonder if this proves just how much your husband wants your marriage to work. He initiated counselling at a time when all else seemed confusing and failing. Yet when you do that, admit there are problems it can be very lonely to each individual because you are trying hard not to look too closely at yourself. Perhaps your husband like you was feeling miserable, confused and at a loss. He chose an anesthetic (an affair). The wrong choice, it may have numbed him from the REAL issues but infact it just caused more destruction. In a way going to counselling will probably have made him justify his affair, or believe that it would end because he was taking measures to fix the real problems but he perhaps felt that although hiS affair numbed him, he knew it was wrong and therefore counselling he hoped would sort it. Very unrealistic but do you see what I mean about things being so unreal in his head yet trying to make the marriage part real. He was in a way half there and half not in a very selfish and unrealistic way.

As for him saying that you didn't open up. It sounds very much to me he just couldn't work you out. You were probably at a stage where it was a bit confusing and too overwhelming, how could you identify what was wrong, what felt wrong and would solve it. Counselling takes a long time, it's a process. You have to gain trust in the counsellor and at first you feel a bit like being on stage. So unable to bear or cope with anymore he chose a quick fix, not intentionally. It just happened and it gave him the fix he needed to take away the real feelings, the ones that he didn't have a clue how to fix. Selfish and so sad but we all do it. We feel overweight, depressed about how we look so we diet a little and then reach for a comforting chocolate bar. It depresses you more and adds to the problem.
You can not just dig deep and be compeltely honnest in front of two other people (I assume it was couple counselling) about things you haven't even assessed or understand yourself. So here you had a confused and at a loss what to do husband who hoped you would sort it all out. Yet how could you. It was too confusing for you too.

Individual counselling is sooooooo much better. You feel safer, it's all about you and although you wonder why just talking, talking and talking is going to help, it does. It opens up the way for you to put it all out and then assess it all. Your counsellor will ,because she/he is a professional, try and pick out key issues for you to focus on but they always check that you are either comfortable exploring them or that you feel they are key. You will know that the counsellor is right for you (a bit like a hairdresser) from how you feel with them and there is nothing wrong with trying a few until you get there. You said you would rather wait until you 'calm down'. I'm not sure whether you are meaning that you feel confident you can reach a stage where you will feel more comfortable and ready to talk or whether you feel completely unstable (that's how I felt). If it's the latter now is the time to go. Your husband is dealing with completely different issues from you in his counselling and to wait and see how it goes for him might be a little vague. But then maybe his counselling will sort him out so much that it will change how you are feeling or at least offer you more understanding - like the missing bit of the jigsaw.

Do not stress about checking his mobiles. You have a justified reason. Can he say the same about what he did? However it's not something you want to rely on for reassurance. You should eventually want to and be able to rely on communication and what is going on in your marriage. You are spot on that you ought to question anything that seems odd to you, like deleted messages. You can't yet trust any response and you can probably second guess his response but you are letting him know what is going on.

Questioning him about details of the affair is good too. I wanted to know everything, but couldn't stomach it all at once. My husband hated being questioned and although answered me eventually, it took him a while that I needed to put answers to my never ending stream of imagined situations, images etc. Everytime you are told a detail it will play on your mind A LOT but in a way I found it better dealing with facts than my imagination. You don't feel so naive or in the dark. He may lie to begin with to avoid hurting you more and he also may be stupid and tactless and just hurt you. But lets face it your not asking for a compliment you are simply wiling and trying to deal with what hurts you very deeply.

The children part is so hard. My children are 3, 5 and 7. My eldest has recently started questioning things. When my husband left after his affair she overheard me talking and asked if daddy had a girlfriend. I told her a very simplified truth with lots of added reassurance (contradiction!). Now bizarrely enough she asking her daddy what his 'girlfriends' house looked like. Not quite sure what her thinking is there but I'm so glad she is talking. Children are resiliant, if they talk they are dealing with it. You say you feel your children don't know who to trust anymore. I would imagine they are suffering some of the same emotions you are. I also found my children having their main problem with me. I was there security and it was me they were worried who would leave. All I could do was remain consistent for them and honest about how I was feeling (ie not say I was fine when snot and tears were pouring). Communication and honesty is all you can do. They are seperate individuals and whatever you do to influence security and love they will take on board but ultimately make up their own minds. They need to own their right to have their own feelings just like you do.

And yes you are very REAL. Your husband should be able to see you as fantasy too. By that I mean in order for him to 'escape' from life's stresses he should be able to seek refuge and comfort in you and his children. It's not fantasy as in dressing up as a nurse, it's being the ultimate comfort and escape for him. There is nothing that you can change, do or work on to provide that. You've already been doing and offering all that by simply being there. It's your husband who should wake up to that and it will suddenly hit him that that is what his family are for him. He should, having almost lost you, really realise just what you mean in that respect, in the consistency and loyalty you have shown him. Do you remember your comfort giver as a child (blanket, teddy or thumb) adults need too, but that is what your spouse is for (and the golf course). It's not about saying amazing feel good things. or complete agreement or worshipping or anything like that. It's just being in your life as stable, consistent and loyal. We don't have that comfort yet (a strange bit here and there) but is that not what we want and eventually hope for? Your husband and mine has it but it;s hard to see and make use of because they haven't realised it yet or they have forgotten how to access it because we also remind them of other things. The grumpy man, the man who leaves socks lying around, the man who forgot a birthday or whatever. When they become so self absorbed they find it hard to seek comfort from that same source. This is their problem not ours and they have to sort it out.
If is definately not too much to ask for your husband to appreciate that this is what you offer.

Take care of you and don't take too much on all at once,
Annie xx

[Indi]

Anne,

You hit the nail on the head.....

Indi

[jojo58]

Dear All,
Thanks to all of your for your replies, they really keep me going day by day. I even have had a couple of days without crying, but this morning it all came flooding back. Probably because I am away on business and don't have to keep my emotions in check so the kids don't get upset (they check on me all the time). I suppose I have to accept that this is a process I have to go through , where the days of crying should get slowly less and less. My husband and I are going away together for the weekend alone and this is causing me anxieties, as to how I will react. Although we have booked a twin room Its far too early to think of resuming any intimate relationship.I just can't get idea out of my head that the other woman is in the bedroom with us. For 25 years our intimate life have always been very private, not a topic of discussion anywhere, even with the closest girl friends or family members. So now this other woman seems to have invaded our private sphere, and this I cannot get out of my head. Its makes me so angry and weepy.
Do you have any advice on how I should deal with this?

Jojo

[rworley2006]

Let me first say I understand how you feel. I found out that my wife was having an affair with a man she met from work. When she left me, the affair was already on, but she would not admit it. I knew something was going on when she wanted to go over to some friends house more than once a week. At the time we were homeless and I can understand her wanting to go visit friends because she did not want to stay at the shelter. But when I saw her at work with another man sitting too close for my comfort I began to question in myself is she being faithful. I knew that if they were not having an affair at the time, then she would be shortly. One week later she left me. We had a fight and I asked her if she was having an affair and she said that she was not. When she left me that day I knew that one was going to start soon. It was almost two months later that she finally came forward and told me, but after I found out from another source.

You are wondering how can you start again. There is no justifiable excuse for an extra-marital affair. If he is having one he is wrong no matter what. But, I have seen the results of an affair make a marriage stronger. How? The true test of a marriage is can you forgive him of his sin against your marriage. If you can, then your marriage will last. If you can't, hang it up because their will always be some kind distrust in the relationship. A marriage can survive infidelity. But, it is up to you if you want it too. As for me and my marriage, I want my wife and I to get back together, but I will not do so until she repents and gets right with God. But from what I am hearing from her since the last time I saw her two days ago she does not care that she is committing adultery. I have given her space to repent, but she has not done it yet. My only choice left is divorce. But, if after a divorce she repents and is willing to work things out and if I have not moved on to a more serious and committed relationship, I am willing to work things out.

[Annie2]

hello Jojo,

Firstly don't stress about things coming flooding back. It still does for me. Not to put you off as it floods in a different way now. All the feelings I felt 8 months ago flood back but now I understand what triggers them and what they mean. I am much more knowledgeable about everything than I was 8 months ago and plus, I have 8 months of my husband being consistent and struggling to prove his love for me.

I'm really pleased your husband and you are going away together, this is so huge but good for you. Try not to put too much weight on it. You need to feel confident at taking everything at your own pace. The sex thing is a difficult one. If you can remember what I tried saying about seperating yourself from your husband. Thinking about what he did you involve yourself. Yet what he did was completely seperate to you. He was behaving as an individual, you were not involved. This means you were not compared, measured up or set along side. It was NOTHING to do with you. Your life with your husband was SO seperate to him even while he was having his affair. How else could he have mentally and emotionally done it? He would have frazzled! I was so confused after my husbands affair as I always felt we had a good sex life. Yet afterwards I began to worry that it was only me thinking that. Was I that naive or big a fool. No, why else did he come back? For more than that I hope but he wasn't unhappy about that.

If you have had any other sexual experiences before your husband then think. Do you compare, measure up or mark your husband against those? What you had with your husband before this was REAL and between only you and him. No one can duplicate that, there is no measure of better or worse. It's just different. For your husband it will be soooooo REAL and privilaged (esp now!) that it will always be the best. It will always be the best because REAL love is present, not surface, not lies or pretence, just real love. Jojo you must trust yourself on this. What happens between you and your husband in that department is REAL, whatever you feel is real.

At first I cried and cried because I felt exhausted trying to push out my paranoid thoughts of comparison. This upset my husband (so what!) but then I began to think, why am I letting this upset even my sex life. I began to enjoy sex for me and me only. Slowly I began again to enjoy it for both of us.

There is no time limit, there is no rule or recommended time that you should regain this part of your relationship. In a way you are starting from scratch as a couple, getting to know each other all over again. Therefore, when the time is right you will know (and I stress, YOU will know, your husband will be more wanting than you - I mean he will be wanting YOU).

Relax Jojo, take it one step at a time and try and focus on LOVE instead of meeting physical demands. When it happens it will be right.
Just enjoy spending time with him and don't stress over what you feel. It's not a fabulous weekend away that you may have had before all of this, this is a tiny step towards you becoming united again.
Keep us posted,
Sending you hugs,
Annie

[jojo58]

Dear Annie,
Many thanks for your incredibly helpful words. I am amazed as to how you have coped over the last 8 months and still have the strength to help others with your experiences and wisdom.

I have just got off the phone with my husband after yet another row over my asking questions about the affair, even basic things like where did they get together, but also including the imagined initimate parts. He was screaming that he would not tell me, yet by not answering direct yes/no questions, where the answer would have assuaged my feelings had it been "no", it is relatively obvious what the answer was "yes". He also made me mad because he admitted that he had talked to his psychologist about the fact I am asking him these questions, and asked her advice as to whether to answer them. She told him no, under no circumstances. What type of advice is that. Surely she should help him work out what he wants to do himself.
I know the real answers will hurt, but I feel I could then put the doubts to rest, and the images/imaginings would fade. He believes it is not the time, but based on my experiences with him, he will never tell of his own accord, and not now he has the support of a professional that tells him not to.
I feel like now that all my wishes for any answers to anything will be first processed by the pyschologist, and what she says goes....

Well I better sort my stuff out so I can get up early to travel again.

Sorry to trouble you so much.
Jojo

[Annie2]

Jojo,

I don't believe for a minute his pychologist said a firm NO. For a start, you are right, they are not their to command they are there to help their clients work out what is best for them. Your husband is sooooo uncomfortable with your questioning. Mine was too, he shouted, screamed, lied the whole works. I think at some point your husband will get it though. If you saw a pychologist she would be telling you it's good to ask questions, fill in the blanks - so why would they give out contradicting advice? Have a look at the articles on this website and others that also back that up (I think it's under affairs in the how to survive bit).

I supposed like us, our husbands need time too. If we are in it together then I suppose, unfairly, we need to take that on board. But he MUST at some point be willing to talk about his affair with you. By not it's like a big unknown wall between you. And for you, you will be imagining the worst instead of clearly being able to process the facts.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to 'but my pschologist says...'. For the first time since his affair your husband has 'someone on his side' or so he sees it. Imagine being the one in the wrong and realising that you are to blame. Who is your supporter (he doesn't see you as that yet) there aren't many people out there who are going to say 'you were completely justified or yes you made the right decision'. His pschologist is the first voice to not condem or criticise and he is lapping it up! My husband did this too, in a way you can't blame them, I certainly wouldn't like to feel the whole world was pointing their finger at me.

I really hope you have a good weekend, it cant be perfect when you are feeling the way you do but it could be good.

You are no trouble and it helps me too to think about things. Post and let us know how your weekend went.

Annie xx

[Rachel]

hi Jojo
I really struggled with being intimate again with my husband, when you said about feeling she is there in the room with you, I can totally relate to that, I really wanted to make love to him and when we did there were times I had to stop half way through as she would join us in my head, and the images would surface, I have to say Jojo that although it was understandable and a normal reaction it really upset me to feel that every time , HOWEVER! it does pass, I remember very clearly the first time we made love without her being in my head it was such a relief.
I asked him all sorts of gory details , I felt i needed to know the answers so i could put a stop to all the images I was building in my mind. I honestly don't know if it helped or not really, but I am glad he gave them, there were times he wouldn't tell me and that made me very uneasy.
Annie , you said about the comparrison thing, I asked him many times if she was better than me or not and he just kept saying you are both different and was adimant that he never compared us in his mind, I believe him! men are not like women they are very black or white, we see the grey areas that they miss.
If he is not willing to answer your questions it maybe just that he is not ready to, I know my husband was very depressed after the affair and the more I pushed him for answers to my questions the more depressed he got, eventually I just had to take it slower and I realised that he was hurting too, the realisation of what he had done to me and the boys was hard for him to face up to and to forgive himself for.
He was still battling with the emotions for a long time and was just plainly confused and everyone (including her ) wanted answers he just didn't know which way to turn, my advise to you is to give it time. He will be who you need him to be eventually, men take longer to get there than women. Men are weaker than women too and they have to battle with there bruised egos. Sorry this is a bit garbled there is so much that can be said its hard to confine it to a few words sometimes .
Take care and have a great weekend, just enjoy each others company, and if you don't want to talk about the affair then don't ! maybe a weekend off, chilling with each other is what you both need .

Rachel xx

[jojo58]

Dear Rachel,
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
After my weekend away with my H, which on the whole was good, although there were some emotional highs and lows. For part of the weekend I saw finally again (after a along absence), the man I married. The concerned, thoughtful, caring husband I had for over 20 years and I thought I had completely lost. I also got the annoyed, agitated, stressed out person he has become. The realisation that the former person is still essentially there and needs bringing out and keeping there is what keeps me going.
I finally saw that he understands and accepts the hurt he has caused and said he feels as if he has awakened from a dreamstate and asks himself what in the world was he doing? He is serious as to sorting his stress issues out which caused him to go into the state. However I will not give up until I have all the details and feel that although no one forced him into this state, that the o/w took advantage and manipulated him to get what she wanted all the time she fancied him and saw what a happy marriage we had , when she did not.
However there is still the anger of the act itself.
I would not give up on knowing the details and finally got some baisc ones on where they used to meet up , which just reinforced just how sordid it all was . Yet he still sees this as different and exciting. He also says he did not/would not compare. I am skeptical as its human nature to compare, even though maybe not directly for men. He obviously enjoyed it otherwise he would have not done it again and again.
He wanted to be close and to hug me,this weekend, but he wouldn't without my permission, and although part of me wants the nearness I just think that its too early. I know that I will probably know when the time comes for being initmate again, but I am also worried that if the time is too short then this invalidates all the hurt and sends the wrong signals. Would you be willing to tell me how long you waited?
Jojo
XX

[Annie2]

Hi Jojo and Rachel,

I can't believe you just had all the same thoughts I had had. That if he hadn't enjoyed it he wouldn't have done it again and again. That's my answer too. I think sometimes we try going around and around looking for some lesser hurt. We can not believe or accept that it happened so we hope or long for details that might let us believe our husband was miserable, had a gun to his head or whatever. The truth of knowing he enjoyed it is too much. Which is why we need to concentrate on what he is feeling about it NOW.

How soon after was your question. For me it was too soon. Probably about 3 weeks after. It just happened during one of our not saying anything only crying sessions. But it was far too soon, it left me feeling very, very confused and extremely disgusted with myself. I too felt as though I had given the 'oh it's ok your forgiven' ticket.
There is no rule book Jojo and there is no set time. When it happens it happens, the more you worry or plan the bigger a thing it will become. Try and look at you beginning a new relationship with your husband. So when the time is right you will feel it. For me it was also a physical need to feel wanted, I felt so empty and unwanted that I thought the only way I could feel that was through sex. I was so wrong. It left me emptier than I was. I cried every time afterwards, I struggled throughout and I disliked every bit of it. But that was me, I have my own issues as you will have yours. Only you will know when it feels right, not your husband and not anyone else. Just don't rush yourself.

Take care and hang in there,
annie xx

[jojo58]

Dear Annie,
Thanks for your honesty. It really helped. I thought we were really on the road to recovery , albeit a long one. Then by a chance remark I got suspicious that she had tried to contact him and he had replied. He had promised me on his fathers grave that he would not contact her or accept any contact. It was a condition if he was to return and we could try again. After hard direct questions I found that she had contacted him using the excuse of one of our son's. (Our sons and her son were best friends since birth, practically like having an additional brother for them).
This has devasted me as he did not tell me, I had to prise it out of him and it pointed out just that he cannot be trusted. Yet he excused it by saying its a process to rebuild the trust and a process to get his actions to support that. He said he wasn't that far along the process when it happened, and he wouldn't do it again.
I just cannot trust him, everytime I think yes, I can start trusting him little by little again , yet another thing comes out of the woodwork. Am I meant to believe that everytime he lies or omits to mention something, that I have to accept that he hasn't reached that part of the process which tells him he has to be honest, open and not cover up and lie.
I am just so angry again about being so stupidly trusting. A habit of over 20 years. At the moment I cannot bring myself to talk to him rationally. I have to go away on business again today and am churning inside, and don't know what to do. Your thoughts would be much appreciated.
Jojo
xx

[Annie2]

Jojo,

I am so sorry this has happened. It's at a time when you really want to believe that part is over and you shouldn't have to deal with it again. My husband did it too. We were trying to sort things out and we were sleeping together. I then discovered he was still in contact with her despite him saying it was over. We had been to counselling together and everything and he had said infront of the counsellor it was over. He did not understand NO contact. He had been updating her on everything from me seeing a solicitor to sleeping with me. I was furious and stuck with my divorce. It took him a while to understand the NO contact bit.

My only advice is that you absolutely stick to your guns. You need to be so firm on your needs that their should be NO contact. This is not too much to ask, he is asking so much more of you. You have every right to be furious and you must let him see that. For him he needs to realise that this has knocked you back a hundred steps and if he does again it he is going to keep knocking back any chance of recovery. This is where you are seperating yourself from him. He kick started that, he broke your marriage, and now you need to seperate your mind completely. You need to tune into you and tune out of him. I think I was hanging on to my husband's every word looking for a glimmer of hope or evidence of love. You won't find that yet, but you may look back and see it was there. By only trusting you and believing in yourself you will keep you head above water. You can not control, or absolutely have certainty about the choices he makes. You can be clear on your hopes, needs and what it will take for you to work. The rest really is up to him. You are communicating very clearly to him right now. You are hurt, you are willing to see if the two of you will work but you have ground rules for that. These are not unreasonable! HE is the one not being clear and sending mixed messages. But lets face it he is mixed up. He needs to get to the point where it really is making perfect sense. He has broken his marriage, he wants it back and he is willing to do anything for that. Until he shows this, whatever he says doesnt' count. It really is so easy for him but he is so weak, confused and in panic that he is fighting from sinking and he can't see the wood for the trees. But trust yourself because you are seeing it very clearly. It may feel all muddled and out of control but you are absolutely doing fine. You homed in on your instincts and they were right. You are dealing with that, you are swimming your way through the consequences of his mess and you are acutely aware of how it is affecting you. It is painful and it is exhausting but without realising it you really are dealing with it. Everything you wrote in your post is evidence to that, you didn't say he's been in contact I feel hurt but never mind I suppose he needs to do what he needs to do. You are far stronger and very much a fighter. No it is not ok, you are hurt and you are telling him that. There is nothing else YOU can do about his mess, it's up to him now on that score.

Now for you. Yes be furious and be kind to yourself about how you feel. You will be angry, hurt, frustrated and so on and that is healthy and absolutely understandable. But get it into perspective before you make any decisions. Try and work out why he was in contact and his reasons for that. If you believe it's because he still wants to continue a relationship with her then you need that confirmed (and it's annoying but I too had to prise open his honnesty). I suspect, like my husband, he is being a bit thick right now. He is still very confused and probably very low feeling (not your problem). However, the clearer you are on the matter the better. So your anger, hurt and distance to him is clearly showing him this is not acceptable behaviour on his part.

You really are in my thoughts today and I feel your pain. But this is far from over yet there is still hope. You are absolutely aware of what is acceptable for you, it's just him (the slow, confused and in denial man) who needs to get that. If he does then it's much more for the better. Hang in there he might just get it. It is so unhelpful and unfair that husbands don't get this or work it out themselves, even on this they need our 'guidance'. But unfortunately so is life! If you were to wait for him to do it all on his own you'd be waiting a long, long time. Just be honnest with yourself and him about how hurt and angry you feel. Do not let him belittle that by saying 'it was nothing'. What he is asking from you is soooo huge and very hard work it is so not too much to ask him to do his part which in comparrison is nothing. You need to know that he would do anything to win you back and he is not showing that right now.

I came home from counselling yesterday feeling really assertive. I spoke to my husband about things I found unacceptable and acceptable. He didn't like it one bit and asked me if I was going to become a lesbian next! Your husband will be the same, they don't like things being out of their control and right now their whole life is out of control they are just in denial about that.

Set your ground rules (you may have to keep doing it) and stick with them. If he is asking so much (and it is a huge ask what he asking - forgiveness for the most cruelest act against you and for you not only to forgive but to love and allow yourself to be loved again) then you have more than every right to have a few asks yourself.

Do not let this beat you. You have been getting stronger and stronger. This is HIS failure, not yours. You have every right to be disappointed and resentful because he has once again spoiled any hope. But do not let yourself sink because whatever happens next you need to be concentrating on surviving this (apparently I say that a lot - survival- on this site!). You are right he can not be trusted or relied on to make you feel better, if anything you can trust him to make you feel crap. But that can change. So trust yourself and look after yourself.

Your husband needs to realise the more he breaks your trust (and he has just done that again) the harder it will be to recover. It really is as simple as that. My husband broke it so many times by doing ridiculous things (meeting her, emailing, owning up to lies he first made in the beginning). The sooner he can be completely honnest and not lie even about the smallest thing the better it will be. He may justify lying so as not to hurt you, cause any more upset or to protect himself from more anger but it wont work. He needs to accept the consequences of what he has done, you will hurt, be angry and so on but if you choose to do and go through all of that and come out the otherside then it's ultimate proof for him you love him and your marriage will withstand even that.

Take care Jojo, we are right here so post soon and let us know how you are doing. Keep your chin up and remind yourself of how well you are doing in the face of HIS destruction.

Best wishes,
Annie xxx
ps sorry it's a bit repetitivie and garbled I'm just feeling acutely aware of how painful this is for you and I really want to help - I hope I am and not confusing you

[Anne22]

Hi Ladies,

I too share what you are going through Jojo - I wonder why it seems so much harder for men like ours to 'Get it' !!!

I know they are living with the guilt, but to ignore everything and break trust over and over again is so hard on us!!! I truely believe that my H dosent even know what is right and wrong some of the time.

When we went to relate he decribed himself as an honest, loyal person - I couldnt control my laughter and even the counsellor looked bemused!!! His constant intimate emailing of female colleagues was astounding - my h said everyone does it and the the counsellor said 'Can you not see what an impact this is having on your marriage' She tried to tell him it was wrong but he wouldnt have any of it!!! He said it was all playful and not with intent!!!! The counsellor said perhaps he needs his ego massaging daily and he didnt like that!

It is as if men like ours build a walll of deceipt lies and control around them.

I am encouraged when reading that with some H's the penny finally drops and they realise what an impact their behaviour has had!!

I think Annies advice is sound - keep your chin up Jojo - Im sure 'the light at the end of the tunnel is lit' - we just need to keep searching for it!

Take care and look after yourself

Anne xx

[jojo58]

Dear Annies,
Many thanks again for our words of support. The shock of not being able to trust him is sitting deep today. For once I really did not want him to contact me to talk about anything. As he was full of saying he wants to make this work and I should believe him. He pointed out that for over 20 years he never lied, and now he made a mistake. -As if that is excuble behaviour.

He went to see his psychologist today who obviously made him feel better as he sent me a text message that what he had learnt from the psychologist has helped him and may help us, so he wants to discuss it. (What has it helped with is not clear).
As I am away from home I said I didn't want to discuss anything on the phone (as it always ends up in screaming match) , and any contact from him is too painful at the moment. So he will have to wait until tomorrow evening. I also left him a note with a paragraph from one of the articles on this site about learning to trust again .
"Openness, honesty and trust build a virtuous circle. When both are committed to live openly with no secrets, then trust can be built. We can live by the maxim, if my partner knew and would be hurt by this, then I won't do it."

Even though he says he has reread it a number of times
he still hasn't got the idea that its WHAT he does that hurts. He thinks that if he does something which will hurt me, he won't tell me so I don't get hurt. Yet I usually can feel when he's lying so I usually find out in the end.

Why are men so thick?

Anyway thanks again for your support.

Jojo
xxx

[Annie2]

Jojo,

I really admire your strength!!! Making him wait - hooooooray!!! You are so on top of things right now. You are absolutely right to decide that you can not do anymore over the phone. You recognise when you have had your fill, need space and take it.

What crap to say 'I have for 20 years not lied and blah blah blah'. My husband pointed out to me the things he doesn't do - 'insist on going to pub on a friday night, watch the football at the weekend'. So what! He DID have an affair and control me for 17 years through hitting, criticising me and keeping me at a distance. Yet I'm supposed to feel grateful for the things he DIDN'T do! Oh I ask you! Your husband seems to be trying the same thing 'look at my good points, surely they count'. Not really, they counted enough for you to have believed your marriage was working, they counted enough to ensure that you were devastated and shocked by his affair. That is it.

I feel a bit concerned that he is 'learning' from his pycologist. I may be completely wrong but I thought the point of seeing one was to learn about yourself not for someone to tell you, should it not be more someone helping you to find and work at issues yourself. Maybe this is what he means.

I sent my husband the exact same passage from this site. Amazing how clear cut it reads yet they still don't get it. Are their brains built to automatically process things in a way to suit themselves? The bit about keeping things from you so as not to hurt you anymore makes a little sense. But it's also about him protecting himself. If he keeps things from you that he knows you won't like he doesnt have to 'suffer' (as he will see it) the consequences such as your hurt, anger and disappointment. All those things he created that also have an impact on him, they make him feel bad. As you say, it's worse when he does that because it always comes out in the end so to have to deal with the 'offence' and also the fact he has lied/covered it up is huge. Far better to have just the 'offence' so you can deal with that and then a bit later the trust that he gave in being able to tell you.

I wish I knew why men are so thick. My counsellor asked me yesterday if I felt as though my husband and I were on the same track, I said no absolutely not it was two different tracks. She then asked if they ran along side each other and I said no completely opposite directions. Blimey that speaks volumes. Sometimes we seem to be on the same track but other times it's like he is trying to knock me off of mine.

I really wish you well for the next hurdle. You really have made me smile by reading your last post. It oozed with a great confidence in knowing yourself right now. Hang on to that. And keep trusting yourself.
Good luck Jojo, funnily enough I will be thinking about you.
Take care and let us know how you are,
Annie xx

[jojo58]

Dear Annie
Thanks for your wonderful words. This last weekend was much better. He has finally understood the meaning of no contact and no secrets. We moved along quite well and he opened up and told me a lot of the details of the affair. This helped. However we had a slight set back when I found out he had been seeing her 2-3 times a week, rather than the once a week on his day off. It seems they met up at lunchtimes , just when I had been trying to contact him by phone. Obviously me trying to contact him gave no warning signals.
He admits that he was in a complete stupor and its me that he wants. I think he definitely believes this.
Although he says he has got her out of his system , I don't believe he has. On Sat. he offered to go shopping with me, but only if we went to a supermarket way out of where I normally shop. I know he is frightened of seeing her. Even though he says he would be embarassed I think its more that his feelings for her would return , and then he would be in a quandry as to what to do.
I know he means it when he says he wants us to be together, but I wish he would confront his feelings and be honest.
Although I know the sequence of events now, what I don't know is the exact calendar timing. This seems to be important to me as there were a number of landmarks during this time and promises made which were lies, and I need to come to terms with this. Unfortunately I am going away on business again and we have agreed not to discuss these issues on the phone as I tend to flip out and get very angry and upset, and nothing gets resolved.
This means I have to sit tight on my questions for a couple of days... this is hard.
Hope all is getting clearer in your situation.
Jojo
xx

[Annie2]

Hello Jojo,

It is good to hear things are moving forward (even if it's slow).

The details of the affair is a very, very hard one for you. The word 'affair' covers up so much of what has actually been done. I know it hurts so much to hear about it. Most of the time my husband was lying about work nights out and spending the night with 'her' my children and I all had sickness bugs. While we were up throughout the night (me being sick and coping with 3 little ones also being sick) he was spending the night with her. That really stung. But it doesn't surprise me. An affair is not an act of consideration, I mean would I have been grateful to know he had postponed his evening of sex with her to help me? He would only have rearranged it. Like you I can remember all the times I tried to contact my husband, who had taken afternoons off to spend with her. Not even when I was sick did he volunteer to take time off to help with the children. Again affair and consideration just don't go.

I too had significant dates during his affair. It was both of our daughters birthdays, he left on Valentines day and it was coming up for our 10 year anniversary. I'm not sure how to 'come to terms' with any of that. But I think I have to do a full year, get past those dates and then see how I feel and cope. It may be the same for you, to do a full circle. But I agree that you probably need to hear the exact dates to help it make sense for you. In a way it's almost like a bit of your life missing. While you were carrying on and believing everything was as it should have been it turns out it wasn't. So you need to fill in the blanks.

I find that certain parts of what I have been told or questions my husband has answered re-play for a long time in my mind. I usually have to ask the question over again. It is just going to take time.

I also know what you mean about worrying that your husband still has feelings for her. I went through this and still in a way do. But are we giving too much importance to what really was a lie. It wasn't a normal relationship your husband had and his feelings were therefore not really expressed or processed in a normal way. Everything was tainted and then exaggerated to stamp out the guilt. Therefore now it is over he really is maybe just coming to terms with how much of a farce it was. Not the way you are imagining, that he is missing her or heartbroken. For my husband, he says it was slowly waking up (but consistently) to how much he had got it wrong about her. Remember, your husband really didn't 'get to know' her in a healthy or normal way. Therefore, there are only lies, exaggerations and a lot of vanity to get over. Now the bubble has burst, I can only imagine your husband is only finding it hard not to really look at what he had with her (a complete embarrassing lie). If it were anything else he would not be with you now. Yet, this is all hard to trust and understand. For me, he offered the other woman the moon on a stick (he wanted to give up me and the children for her) so it was and still can be very hard to believe that he still doesn't see her as some sort of worthy goddess. But he says he doesn't. He says he feels horrified by the huge mistake he made. I have to remind myself that he had a choice, he could have left and had her but he didn't. He could have carried on believing or trusting in the 'created' short moments of time with her but he didn't. Why? Because he had previously been sharing life with me. We had lived every moment together, weddings, funerals, childbirth, everything. He had lived through every REAL experience with me, good and bad. With her it was 'created'. There was no real experience as 'partners', no shared anything but a lie or a secret. I mean secret not in an exciting way (although that is probably how he chose to see it at the time) but as it simply had to be. There was no substance. Your husband was the same. How could that have been love as you and I know it Jojo? So now that it is all out in the open and none of those 'created' moments are no longer happening your husband is back to reality. He is living again and not exhausting himself with lying or pretending. In a way it may be a strange relief to him. There is no comparison between what he had and could have with you and what he chose to have with her. I really hope you soon get to see this through what he says or does. You really need to give yourself time to work through this. I really believe whatever happens you are going to survive this if you get to and realise the truth about his affair (not the silly details of times/locations - silly as in they are nothing but wrong roads he took and dates/times he could have spent with you) but actually the meaning. The meaning which at the time was not explored properly by him (there was no meaning to it) and the meaning of it to him now. It is only you and I who give it more meaning while our husbands get on with realising just how little it really was. You have to look at the whole picture, which you don't have yet. So again it's going to take time.


Good luck while you sit tight. I know that is the hardest thing to do. Try not to worry about getting angry or upset when you question or listen. These are your feelings and they fit the content very well. Allow yourself to feel, by supressing anger or hurt will only mean it will crop up again.

Take care Jojo,
Annie xx

[jojo58]

Dear Annie,
Thanks for your reply. Its amazing as to how strong your clear advice is and how you are coping with your situation aswell as helping others. You are really amazing. Your children and your h should be very proud of you.
I am sitting tight on the questions, although I did tell my h on the phone that I will be asking them when I get back. He was a bit upset as he is still uncomfortable with them and does not want to deal with specific dates. He admits he prefers it to be cloudy so he can cope with the guilt feelings.
However like you, one of the landmark dates was our wedding anniversary (21st), so I do need to know. Its hurts to think that the o/w helped me to set up our 20th wedding anniversary party the previous year. When everyone was congratulating us , and wishing us another 20 happy years, all she said was how difficult the 21st year was and I should watch out. (She had already gone through hers). At that time I did not know she would be the main cause of the prophecy.
My h now admits the best way to describe her was desperate.
Anyway it is getting better. I believe, like you, that the year has to go round to soften the hurt of this year.
I should be happy that I found out after only 2 months. Which makes the period of lies shorter, but still hard to deal with. I also get a terrible feeling of fright if I think that it could have gone on for months,years longer, and if that was the case then my h would have no longer felt he was in a dream, but that dream would have become his reality, then me and the boys would no longer have had any value. However I have to keep this thought at bay as "what ifs" can drive you crazy and don't really have much value.

Hope your h finally sees the wonderful person he has in front of him and cherishes you , and only you.

Jojo
xx

[Anne22]

Morning Annie & Jojo

Just reread this thread and see so many parallel happenings with what you have been going through Jojo - made me chuckle a little when like you I sent info from this site to my H to get him to read regarding honesty etc. I have sone this too and am not sure if my braindead H will understand any of it, but slowly and I mean very slowly I think he might be getting it!!!

Thankfully my anxiety at the begining of the week has subsided a little, thanks to you Annie - I agree with what Jojo is saying - you give us all so much strength which is amazing when you also are going through all this heatache!!

I now believe all the anxiety has such a devastating effect on me - I dont know how much it impacts others but I cannot get on with normal things in my life because I seem to allow it to take over to the point where I cant sleep, eat etc!!

When I read other threads and they say just get your h to communicate with you talk to you - I think easier said than done - I have tried til I am blue in the face!!! Not as easy with some men!!!! My H says oh dont bring everything up again - I thought we had moved on from all that stuff! Soul destroying thathe doesnt realise that talking is like putting the key in the door to renewing our relationship!

I hope your H's are slowly coming round to the total realisation of the impact it has on us and how it screws up your mind!

In my heart I really dont think my H is playing around but the old saying 'once a cheat, always a cheat' weighs heavily on my soul and although I am trying to make a go of my marriage I am not sure yet if I can live with this man for the rest of my life knowing what he has put me and my kids through over the past 8 years!!!

Does that sound unreasonable?

Jojo - your H should not mind where he goes with you - why should you shop out of the area!! Why should the o/w control your or your H actions! I would say stuff it - all needs to be in the open with her and she needs to know where his loyalty lies and with whom he wants to be with!! Sorry but I think it may be a bit of a cop out! At sometime you will both bump into her if she lives locally so why not stamp the whole sordid affair over and stand proud together?

Although I have chosen not to involve our friends and family, which in a way makes it easier for my H to carry on like a complete pra.. with everyone still thinking what a fantastic H he is! (which I still feel angry about incidently!) we have stood together in that we have been in contact with the b..... who tried to break up our marriage - (I must say instigated by me - my H didnt want to do this he just wanted to let 'sleeping dogs lie' (sorry about that pun!!!!) she knows in no uncertain terms that she is as good dead to us and we have broken contact with her and her daughter who was a very good friend of our daughters - this was very hard but necessary!

Good luck Jojo - must be hard being away from home - I had a job where I travelled alot but thankfully before I had kids - not sure I could do it now!! I know you must have lots of downtime when your imagination must run wild - I know mine does when I have too much time to think!! I hope all goes well over the next few days - I am thinking of you!

Love Anne x

[Annie2]

Dear Jojo and Anne,

I was feeling pretty unappreciated today until I read your very, very kind words!!! I have to say a few tears were shed at them!! I am no angel everything I have written may sound calm and collected but it only comes that way after I've screamed, slammed doors and had almighty tantrums over what I am feeling or dealing with. I don't think my husband would agree with you as he gets the brunt more than the calm. So pretty much what you read is based on reflection!! Tried and tested.

Jojo, there was no prophecy from that woman. Your husband has summed it up she was desperate. Prophecy only about her own marriage and how she felt but not about yours. Desperate that anything would have served as a 'drug' to ignore, numb and escape what her real problems were; including her friend's husband.

The what if's are killers. But remember that had it have gone on longer, had your husband have somehow ended up with her he would STILL have come back to reality. To have to live a 'normal' life with her would never have worked. All those 'unreal' feelings don't last, he would have found himself in living hell. There would have been no escape from what he had done and actually the reminder of what he had lost would have been there every day looking her her. He would still have woken up but would have struggled even more because how could she comfort that when she was the cause. There would have been even more hurt coming at him from her family and his own. Even if it had continued as an affair it would have been worse for him. I don't believe he could have carried on without losing his own self-respect or even just quality of living. His life would have become a lie/nightmare not a dream. You don't need to feel grateful for you that it didn't go on longer, maybe instead it's a strange relief for him you feel. You need to hold on to the fact that you found out when you did because your husband could not lie anymore. If you had accused him and he lied his way out of it again and again it would have been different. You found out, by pushing and pushing, because he was weak and struggling with it. Do you really believe that your husband would have become stronger? It clearly wasn't making him strong but it was tearing him apart.

Anne, communication will take a lot of practice. You are doing all the communicating at the moment. Your husband may not be a talker but try and read the other small things - phoning, giving flight details etc. It's not enough and it's far from what you really need but it is a tiny little step. But you are right, it is up to you just how long you are going to wait. When you have so many memories which bring back explosive feelings now by the present hurt you are feeling it really isn't enough that he is doing. Yet for him it's probably feeling like a massive offering and change. This is the man who hasn't got it right yet, he just doesn't know how to. You are the one who is very in tune with how you feel and the reasons for that, he just is so out of touch with himself and you. His idea of feeling good is at the expense of everyone else. Yet he is just learning what that expense is, he chose to ignore it for such a long time. It is going to take a lot of time, hits and misses, for him to get this right. I don't think it is unreasonable at all for you to question staying with this man. But horribley this is your choice, to hang in there or to walk away. This is what makes it all so unfair for us. Maybe if you spell that out to your husband, ask him why you should give him a chance, ask him to be honest what he feels he can and can't do (nothing about financial, practical). What can he offer emotionally. Blimey if you were hiring a cleaner you would ask her how good she was, this is someone you are considering keeping for life so you do have the right to know. Just remember that his offers change over time, he may promise the best but you don't get it or he may promise little but you get more.

I really wish both of you all the best. It is so good having you to share thoughts with and I don't know how I would have got through this without that.

Take care,
Annie

[tammy]

Hi, Firstly i would also like to say that Annie has been a great support to me in my dark times offering great advice and helping me stick it out, Thanks.

Jojo, sorry that you to are going through all this, i believe its harder to try to save a marriage than walk away and it takes time and a lot of pain. I really wish that mobile phones did not exist as they played a crucial part in my husbands affair. He is a very shy person but as he put it the mobile phone abled him to be less shy and say things that he would not have felt able to say face to face, especialy the heavy flirting part. In the weeks after i found out i was just like you, needing to know all the details hating not knowing. However my husband began dreading coming home for what he described as a police like interregation as soon as he walked in the door. I would spend my day thinking of questions to ask then my head spinning trying to make sure that i remembered them as so was completely useless all day getting nothing done just being misserable remembering all the details and questions. I was given what turned out to be excellent advice by someone i know. She told me to write down questions as i thought of them on a piece of paper and place them in a bowl. Then set aside a time in the evening, no more than 1 hour, when we would sit and go through them. I found this great as it got them out of my head and my husband found it great because he knew he was not coming home to an interregation. After only a week my husband was picking out questions outside this set time as he walked past the bowl as he "felt strong enough to answer one". The bowl really helped take the pressure off and i got my questions answered without the ussual arguments.

I too had problems with my husbands continued feelings for her for weeks after, with him saying to me he was trying not to have them. After 3 months since he ended it with her she started phoning him again and he didnt tell me (didnt want to hurt me) and i discovered it when he sent a text to me instead of her - now that hurt and made me doubt the trust thing all over again. I had such a problem dealing with this that last week i told him i wanted a divorce and then didnt talk about the affair, text or our marriage at all with him for days, just got on with my own like making plans for ME. He was very quiet for days but I have to say the penny has finaly dropped for him last Sunday and he's devestated. He approached me wanting to talk, told me why he'd spoken to here when she phoned, not put the phone down, that he felt nothing for her so thought it was safe to, on his part, he just didnt realise at the time that we werent srong enough. He now realises what he's done, the hurt he's caused and that she wasnt 'real', just a fantsy, that he'd built her up in his mind to something that she wasnt. The guilt is getting him down now, the fact that he did this to our marriage. Since then he has been being attentive, caring and loving. We are taliking about anything for hours every day and its back how we used to be. the thing i'm really loving at the moment is that he had a nightmare the other night that i had an affair and kicked him out to move the other man in and that all my family loved the new man! He woke up in a panic saw me there still and was greatly relieved but couldnt get back to sleep because he was so emotional and angry. Thing is i'm a light sleeper so he kept me awake also but i was loving it as it was like he had finally understood the effect this has had on me. i'm now taking one day at a time in the hope that i can learn to deal with the memories of what he has done. I know now that he realy does love me and is totally recommitted to us but i still have to deal with the hurt and memeories that are still there and i have made it clear to him that if he even says 'hello' to her then we are through, he understands this now.

So what i say is to hold on, keep trying, sometimes the penny does drop for them (even though it took me withdrawing from him emotionally and getting on with my life for this to happen!), so there is always hope. I believe that you have to give it your best shot so that if its doesnt work you can honestly say you tried your best, but if it does work out then the potential rewards can be great.Tracy

[Anne22]

Tracy

It is really refreshing to hear what you have shared with us - for those of us who are trying to make things work - I'm sure some are with me when I say - can it ever really happen?

The questions and bowl idea is great - never heard of that and my H sometimes says he stays out - anywhere to avoid being on his own with me (if he knows the kids are staying out!) for that very reason. Might be something we could do!

I have often wondered whether I should be braver and threaten divorce - I have never mentioned this at all in everthing that has happened - it sounds like this made your H wake up quickly and realise that you meant business!

I am not sure if my H really thinks I would throw him out - or even think about divorce - same old story - she has put up with it so far and not thrown me out or left - so why should she/could she!

I do think he is too comfortable here and perhaps I need to threaten his existence here with me and the kids for him to realise he is on shaky ground!

Thank you Tracy
Anne xx

[jojo58]

Dear Tracy and Annies,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Tracy its good that you still feel positive. The idea with the bowl is good, but I feel that I still want to hurt as much as I hurt and not make it too easy on him. The penny has dropped for him , but although I have some details I don't have all of them , and he gets aggressive if I try to pressurise him ( nothing violent , hes not the type, he just shouts and paces). He says he realises what he has done and the consequences. He sees it as a huge mistake at a low point in our relationship and excuses it as such, saying its not really him, and that he was just in an emotional state and lost. He does however want to make it better for me. However I do get waves of emotion and get maudlin at the moment. My anger seems to be very directed at the o/w rather than him at the moment.
I wonder how your H's excused their behaviour? What drove them to actually go through with the final act of betrayal?

Completely out of the blue a work colleague sent me a set pictures of what wives have done when to H when betrayed. She is definitely NOT aware of my situation. I cannot attach them but they include sprayed cars, banners from airplanes, and my favorite, a billboard notice. I even showed them to my H , and he commented how lucky he was that I didn't do that. My only comment was that I would have done it to the o/w rather than him. Why do I still try and protect him?


Jojo
xx

[Anne22]

Jojo

We are very alike in that we seem to keep protecting our H's! I think it might be to do with the fact that we simply love them and I suppose do not want any more hurt - either side - I have often wondered what would happen if I shouted it all from the houses and really get some revenge!!!

However I do feel that I do not want to stoop to that level - I have always held my head high during all this and feel that to publically humilite my h infront of friends and work colleagues would not gain me anything other than alot of personal gratification!

I love reading about these cases were a woman scorned does these crazy things and they often say they have no regrets!! Not my style!!!

I do feel that for those of us who have kids - we have to remember that our H is their father and if we did anything very public our kids might face the consequences too!!!

Part of my problem in moving on is that my h has not really vocalised 'why' he did it other than to say 'it was on a plate' i.e. brain in his d...!!! and I think we have been growing apart!! Pathetic really that a so called intelligent man cant realise that we all change and grow especially if you have been with your H for 25yrs like I have - of course having children, moving etc changes you!!

These waves of emotion you are having are perfectly normal and like me I guess you are building up a wall around you to stop anything like this hurting you again! Im sure this is natural.

Keep your chin up honey - its all we can do until we can swim through this thick custard!!!

Take care

Anne x

[Rachel]

Hi Jojo

Sorry haven't been online for a while, and BOY! have i had some catching up to do.
Way back you asked how long I waited till we were intimate again, and I think it was Annie that replied by saying 3 weeks and too soon, well I was even earlier , and yes I do regret that. I even had him back home too. Looking back ( and hindsight is all we have to learn from) I regret that too, I feel that because I needed to feel loved and wanted again ( even though it was over a month before he said he loved me again) I didn't make him prove to me he was back with me totally and she was in his past, he had not fully got over her and so was constantly jumping backwards and forwards for a long time . This was a form of addiction, one for which am glad to say he has dealt with once and for all. But ! it has taken nearly 4 years to do it.
thebottom line is I guess that there are no easy answers and every relationship is different but you hang in there. I am really glad the weekend went well.

take care

Rachel

[jojo58]

Its been a while since I posted, with some ups and downs, but on whole improving with each step until yesterday. Now I am on a real downer and wondering whether its really worth the effort. We have had days of finding emotional highs in being close again. We have also been having long discussions using a book by Julia Cole called "Staying together forever". We bought this when we first acknowledged we had a marital crisis, but he was never interested in reading it. Now its turned into his bible.
However we have become unstuck again over him not telling me details of his real feelings and actions during the affair. He says he can't remember. I believe he is blocking it to stop himself from feeling guilty and uncomfortable. This has sent me back into angry and hurt mode, as I feel I opened up my feelings to him to discuss the issues regarding our relationship , but he is not willing to discuss the affair so I can stop my imaginings and learn to cope with the facts. He admits he made giant mistake and he was "sick" and its me that he wants. However the affair was one big lie after another,to me, so why should I believe him now. Even if it would be true, I can't believe I will ever want to be intimate with him again, unless I know what went on and can put it behind me.

Jojo

[Annie2]

Jojo,
It's good to hear from you. It's also good to know things have been going as well as they can.

My husband says exactly the same - ' I can't remember'. Almost a year later he can't remember something that at the time was so important to him yet he can remember what he got for Christmas when he was six!! I wonder how I would feel if he could remember, if he could give little details, blow by blow account. I'm not sure I would find that reassuring. Whether he can remember or not, the fact he chooses not to is frustrating but in a way encouraging. I know times where I have felt disgusted with myself I find it hard to recall the finer details. I'm sure I'm surpressing them but it doesn't change the fact I'm disgusted with myself or know whatever I did was wrong.

What is it that worries you exactly Jojo? Is your husband giving you any detail? I really agree that you need some but there are parts that he will choose not to tell you. If we were to know every move or thing our friends, family and so on ever made we would die of hurt.

I know you must still feel up and down and still mistrusting. I think also part of it is letting go of the life you remember, the one you had. This is a different relationship now and one that needs a lot of work. For you it means a different way of living and it can feel overwhelming and acutely urgent. By that I mean we want to escape or rid ourselves of the pain so we are desperate to seek answers. There was no logic in his affair, no matter how hard you try to find it or piece it together from his answers you will never do it.

Post soon Jojo, you are still doing brilliantly well and I am really happy to hear things are still 'together'.

Best wishes,
Annie xx