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donatella9
11th August 2006, 06:25 PM
I had an affair after 21 years of marriage and 6 children. My husband, although not an alcoholic, drank heavily nearly every night and usually every Friday, Saturday and Sunday. For many years I tried to compromise with him, I cajoled, I argued, I accepted, I ignored, I pleaded and finally I became depressed and despondent. He still refused to compromise on his 'pub' habit.

He also over the years became more and more verbally abusive towards me after being at the pub, and would often not remember what he had said. He was however a loving Father especially when the children were young, a good 'provider', had a good sense of humour, intelligent, capable, he also loved me, very many positive things. All of these I recognised and for all these things I thought my marriage was worth working at and making it work.

What I didn't count on though was my own sense of desperation and loneliness. I spent so much of my time alone or with small children that I was pitied in my community and referred to as 'that lonely woman'. Not something I wanted to be seen as, as I am capable, organised and determined and had several loyal and close friends.

Anyway to cut a long story short, my affair liberated me, was the best thing that ever happened to me and I have no guilt or remorse about it whatsoever. I was shown all the love and tenderness that I had been missing and had been lacking in my marriage.

I have read a lot on this forum about the 'jilted' partner's loss and anger, as if they had, had nothing to do with the affair. As far as I am concerned, it takes two to make a marriage and two to break one. Affairs don't come out of the blue if the relationship was working in the first place. Perhaps some of the anger that is felt by the jilted partner is actually directed at themselves, for not having contributed sufficiently to the primary relationship, in the first place.

I have every sympathy with the jilted partner, betrayal is difficult to bear, but it is important to realise that there are many forms of betrayal, not just sexual, and many of these are harder to bear and leave deeper scars.

Donatella9

Helen
11th August 2006, 06:49 PM
I have read a lot on this forum about the 'jilted' partner's loss and anger, as if they had, had nothing to do with the affair. As far as I am concerned, it takes two to make a marriage and two to break one. Affairs don't come out of the blue if the relationship was working in the first place. Perhaps some of the anger that is felt by the jilted partner is actually directed at themselves, for not having contributed sufficiently to the primary relationship, in the first place.Given that you have expressed the fact that you do not regret your affair, it is hardly surprising that you take this view. After all, it justifies what you did, doesn't it? But the reasons for affairs occurring are not as black and white as you indicate. After all, it may take two to make a marriage and two to break one. But it only takes one to have an affair. And your circumstances are hardly typical of many on this board.

Not one of the people who was abandoned drank. Most had responsible jobs, took care of the kids and followed their spouses around, bending over backwards to please them. Not one behaved unreasonably and most stayed despite some pretty appalling behaviour on the part of their cheating spouse. What would you say about a spouse who is selfless and sacrifices their happiness for the good of the relationship only to have their partner go off and sleep with someone else anyway? To the wife who cannot get her husband to go to marriage counselling but who finds out that he is having an affair with a best friend or a relative? How is the abandoned party responsible for the affair in that situation? It is true, in some cases the actions of both parties can be attributed to a marriage breaking down but not all the time. And not as often as you seem to think either.

Sometimes people have affairs because they want to. They even tell their spouses that they haven't done anything wrong. It is just something that they 'have to get out of their system'. Or they just want to try someone new. Or they just want attention. I am not trivialising the reasons for your affair. Your life with your husband could not have been fun. But we are not all like your husband. Most of us limped on for years in dysfunctional marriages in the hope that our spouses might one day communicate with us. Because that is what being married means sometimes. And many of us who were abandoned/cheated on are still none the wiser as to the reasons for the affair.

Bully for you if your affair made you feel good. The rest of us unfortunately have experienced it from the other side and it was not 'great' or 'liberating' for any of us...


Helen

donatella9
13th August 2006, 10:10 PM
Hi Helen,

We all have to take personal responsibility for our experiences in life. Unpleasant things even bad things happen to us, the only thing we can change and have some control over are our preconceptions, belief and conditionings.

The anger and need for revenge I have seen expressed on this site is shocking. Everyone makes mistakes and tries to get through their lives as easily as possible. Affairs don't spring from the blue, it is just very easy to be a victim and not take responsibility for your part in the situation. I know it's not easy, I've spent years watching, listening and studying, most of all experiencing. We need compassion for one another and deep understanding, particularly in times of difficulty, anger and revenge just don't cut it.

Helen
13th August 2006, 10:26 PM
Hi Helen,

We all have to take personal responsibility for our experiences in life. Unpleasant things even bad things happen to us, the only thing we can change and have some control over are our preconceptions, belief and conditionings.

The anger and need for revenge I have seen expressed on this site is shocking. Everyone makes mistakes and tries to get through their lives as easily as possible. Affairs don't spring from the blue, it is just very easy to be a victim and not take responsibility for your part in the situation. I know it's not easy, I've spent years watching, listening and studying, most of all experiencing. We need compassion for one another and deep understanding, particularly in times of difficulty, anger and revenge just don't cut it.donatella,

I think the anger and need for revenge that some people feel is normal. Yes, the intensity can be shocking but these are people who have been scarred by the very people they trusted with their lives. They were intimate with them. And betrayal, when it comes, is that much harder to take when it is unexpected and, in most cases, undeserved. I agree it is easy to play 'victim' but I also know from my own experiences that the factors that lead to an affair are not as clear cut as taking responsiblity for x, y or z. People have affairs for all sorts of reasons and sometimes responsiblity is not clear. Sometimes yes, it does happen out of the blue. That is my point.

I know I am one of the most laid back people you could meet. I still have close friends that I made in childhood. Most will tell you that I am not a bad person. Yet my ex chose to have an affair because the alternative (that is, going to a counsellor) was too difficult for him. THAT doesn't make ME a bad person. But it makes him a bad partner. At no point have I played victim. Indeed, he is the victim because he is the one who is having a breakdown 6 months after our divorce was finalised. I won't say I don't care but I only care because my ex's mental health affects our son. I only care because my son cares...

Do I take responsibility for my ex having an affair? No, I don't. Because he didn't have to and now he knows it. He had an affair because it was easy and less complicated than dealing with the real issues. Lots of people do this for precisely this reason. I always say if a spouse isn't happy, SAY you are unhappy. GIVE your spouse the chance to put things right. If they chose not to, they chose not to put the marriage first. Not saying anything is not the way to conduct a marriage. It certainly isn't the answer because if a spouse doesn't say what is bothering them, how is the other party supposed to know? And having an affair when the other party has not been informed that you think there is a problem is just plain wrong. My view. At least have the guts to tell your spouse that you are unhappy....

It is easy to assign blame, particularly if you feel you are in the right but ask yourself - were your actions REALLY justified? Did your husband know how you felt? Did you give him ultimatums? Did he know what you would do if he didn't buck up his ideas? If you did none of those things, how on earth can you believe that your affair was justified, much less the best thing that ever happened to you?


Helen

martin123
22nd August 2006, 08:37 PM
At the risk of upsetting Helen (again!:D) can I just say donatella9 that I can understand where you are coming from and it is nice to hear someone with a view on these things that sits closer to the real world than some of the "hollier than though" views that are regularly seen here. You have a right to be teated with respect and to be happy. From what you said it appears that you were not respected or happy. Marriage doesn`t, and shouldn`t make you an object for abuse. I wish you health and happyness and if your partner loses you because of his unacceptable behaviour then he is the one that should hang his head in shame, not you!

Peace and love to you all.
Martin

Helen
22nd August 2006, 08:46 PM
At the risk of upsetting Helen (again!:D) can I just say donatella9 that I can understand where you are coming from and it is nice to hear someone with a view on these things that sits closer to the real world than some of the "hollier than though" views that are regularly seen here. You have a right to be teated with respect and to be happy. From what you said it appears that you were not respected or happy. Marriage doesn`t, and shouldn`t make you an object for abuse. I wish you health and happyness and if your partner loses you because of his unacceptable behaviour then he is the one that should hang his head in shame, not you!

Peace and love to you all.
MartinSo the real world view is:

1. Both parties are ALWAYS responsible for a) one party having an affair and b) the other party walking away? and

2. Anger and acrimony has no place when a spouse has been betrayed in the most awful way?

I agree that SOMETIMES both parties are equally responsible for a marriage ending/an affair. What I take issue with here is the sweeping generalisation that both parties are ALWAYS to blame. That is not a fact and no, it does not necessarily reflect reality either.


Helen

Helen
23rd August 2006, 03:36 PM
Martin

Nobody says you don't have the right to be treated with respect... or to be happy, what you don't have is the right to hurt someone else needlessly to get it.

2 rights don't make a wrong, if a relationship is abusive, unhappy and the problems can't be overcome then LEAVE ! Dipping your toe in someone elses pond rarely makes you happy anyway, end the current relationship and then go skinny dipping in life's love pool all you want !


HelenHelen,

I agree. An affair is not the answer because someone is bound to get hurt. If Donatella and others are unhappy in their marriages, the answer is air their grievances and work them out or end the marriage and leave. Leaving is bad enough but to me, betrayal followed by departure is much worse. And betrayal, without departure, is about wanting to have your cake and eat it.


Helen

martin123
23rd August 2006, 08:02 PM
Oh dear!!! I`ve done it again! :rolleyes:

Helen
25th August 2006, 01:43 PM
At the risk of upsetting Helen (again!:D) can I just say donatella9 that I can understand where you are coming from and it is nice to hear someone with a view on these things that sits closer to the real world than some of the "hollier than though" views that are regularly seen here. You have a right to be teated with respect and to be happy. From what you said it appears that you were not respected or happy. Marriage doesn`t, and shouldn`t make you an object for abuse. I wish you health and happyness and if your partner loses you because of his unacceptable behaviour then he is the one that should hang his head in shame, not you!

Peace and love to you all.
MartinOh dear!!! I`ve done it again! :rolleyes:So is the purpose of your missives to provoke? If so, it isn't working. But the good thing about sites like these is no one is forced to agree with the views being offered and no one is forced to stay here at gunpoint either. If you and Donatella (and others) don't like what is being said and feel the need to make provocative statements (from the pov of the betrayer rather than the betrayed), you do have the option of not coming here. It stands to reason that people on the opposite side of the fence will have different views. It doesn't mean they are wrong and you are right or vice versa. It just means you disagree. And I think we are all old enough to disagree without resorting to childish behaviour and insults.

Just a thought...


Helen

martin123
27th August 2006, 03:41 PM
I really wasn`t trying to provoke, be childish or insulting, honest!:) It`s a shame that we are sometimes unable to translate what people write the way it was intended. I truely hold my hands up and admit that I am as guilty as the next man or woman for doing that. If your good self, or anyone else come to that, take what we say here the wrong way then I have no control over that but, with a huge amount of respect, acceptence of an alternative view does sometimes appear a little one sided. If an opinion on a subject does not conform to the pretty well established beliefs on this forum then the person with that opinion appears to be attacked for drifting too far from those beliefs. And they are reminded that no one is holding a gun to thier head to remain a contributer to this forum.The assumption is made that they are being provokative, childish or that they are wrong. I am my biggest critic.I pride myself in being able to look in the mirror and admitting that I sometimes get things wrong. Maybe it would be a better world if everyone, now and then, took a step back and looked in the mirror and consider that they also could be wrong. Before I am told off for that last sentence, I am not pointing a finger at you Helen or anyone else. I suppose it boils down to the fact that you and I do not agree on a lot of things, and I accept that honourably and I am pleased that we are able to do that without becoming enemies and can continue to respect each others opinions. :D
Just another thought........

My very best love and wishes to you.

Martin

Helen
27th August 2006, 05:31 PM
If an opinion on a subject does not conform to the pretty well established beliefs on this forum then the person with that opinion appears to be attacked for drifting too far from those beliefs. Not for drifting too far from those beliefs but for making sweeping, general statements, such as 'both parties are always to blame for a marriage breaking down/an affair' and representing those views as the 'real world view of things'. No, they are not but regardless, no one deserves to be cheated on. If you or Donatella or anyone else is unhappy in their marriages, END THEM! Then you are free to sleep with whoever you choose to sleep with, without anyone else's opinion muddying the issue. And don't, whatever you do, justify your actions, as Donatella has done, by saying you are doing it because it is your partner's fault and it is always the partner's fault. In Donatella's case that may be a fact but for the majority of us, we did nothing wrong and did not deserve to be cheated on. In this instance, I offered an alternate view and here we are - again - you accusing me of attacking and me saying hang on, there is an alternate view. But, in my experience, it is always those who cheat who do not want to hear an alternate view that says the partner isn't always to blame and the partner does not deserve infidelity... The assumption is made that they are being provokative, childish or that they are wrong. This assumption is only made when they talk about 'holier than thou' attitudes and make statements such as 'oh dear, I have done it again' with a sarcastic, rolling eyes emoticon, which indicates that they were trying to be provocative and sarcastic all along (if you hover your cursor over your emoticon, you will see that it says 'sarcasm'). If you have a serious point to share, by all means share it. But don't be sarcastic and do not make comments accompanied by emoticons that make it clear that your intention all along is to provoke people unless you want someone to point out that your replies are provocative. When you do that in this sort of forum, you need to accept that some people are going to reprimand you (or worse) for coming here and making sweeping statements about marriages that you know nothing about.

My point is, if you and Donatella chose to cheat, that was up to you. But do not dress it up in generalisms and do not tar us all with the same brush and make out that this is the way the 'real world' works. It isn't. People cheat for all sorts of reasons and not necessarily because their marriages are bad. And one has to ask, if their marriages are so bad, why not end them before going off with someone else? The marriage Donatella describes sounds hellish so why is she still with that man? Why didn't she end her marriage before having the affair? Only she knows the answers to those questions but as someone who has been cheated on for absolutely no reason (and I have the ex husband who is suffering from clinical depression as a result of his actions), I think cheating on someone without ending a marriage smacks of wanting to have your cake and eat it - and making sweeping generalised statements about the spouse's part in the whole sorry saga is looking for a way to do so without guilt.


Helen

martin123
27th August 2006, 07:03 PM
Not for drifting too far from those beliefs but for making sweeping, general statements, such as 'both parties are always to blame for a marriage breaking down/an affair' and representing those views as the 'real world view of things'. No, they are not but regardless, no one deserves to be cheated on. If you or Donatella or anyone else is unhappy in their marriages, END THEM! Then you are free to sleep with whoever you choose to sleep with, without anyone else's opinion muddying the issue. And don't, whatever you do, justify your actions, as Donatella has done, by saying you are doing it because it is your partner's fault and it is always the partner's fault. In Donatella's case that may be a fact but for the majority of us, we did nothing wrong and did not deserve to be cheated on. In this instance, I offered an alternate view and here we are - again - you accusing me of attacking and me saying hang on, there is an alternate view. But, in my experience, it is always those who cheat who do not want to hear an alternate view that says the partner isn't always to blame and the partner does not deserve infidelity... This assumption is only made when they talk about 'holier than thou' attitudes and make statements such as 'oh dear, I have done it again' with a sarcastic, rolling eyes emoticon, which indicates that they were trying to be provocative and sarcastic all along (if you hover your cursor over your emoticon, you will see that it says 'sarcasm'). If you have a serious point to share, by all means share it. But don't be sarcastic and do not make comments accompanied by emoticons that make it clear that your intention all along is to provoke people unless you want someone to point out that your replies are provocative. When you do that in this sort of forum, you need to accept that some people are going to reprimand you (or worse) for coming here and making sweeping statements about marriages that you know nothing about.

My point is, if you and Donatella chose to cheat, that was up to you. But do not dress it up in generalisms and do not tar us all with the same brush and make out that this is the way the 'real world' works. It isn't. People cheat for all sorts of reasons and not necessarily because their marriages are bad. And one has to ask, if their marriages are so bad, why not end them before going off with someone else? The marriage Donatella describes sounds hellish so why is she still with that man? Why didn't she end her marriage before having the affair? Only she knows the answers to those questions but as someone who has been cheated on for absolutely no reason (and I have the ex husband who is suffering from clinical depression as a result of his actions), I think cheating on someone without ending a marriage smacks of wanting to have your cake and eat it - and making sweeping generalised statements about the spouse's part in the whole sorry saga is looking for a way to do so without guilt.



Helen


There you go Helen. You yourself have just made an assumption. And I quote" My point is, if you and Donattela chose to cheat, that was up to you"
I haven`t cheated on my wife. I`m still living under the same roof as her, all be it very unhappily, which (and I sympathise with your husband) has driven me to the clinical depression because I have gone to extremes in order to rescue my marriage, actions which my wife has not wanted to even consider getting involved with. Before YOU make sweeping statements about why I am still here putting up with her unforgivable behaviour then allow me to make that clear. I choose to stay here for my childrens sake. Thier care and well being would nose dive if I were to leave. So please Helen, accept that you may also sometimes make mistakes with your views. That was the point I was trying to get accross previously. We ALL make mistakes and sometimes its the people that make the most effort who are the ones who have to now and then disappear for an evening in order to find some form of simple comfort. If someone HAS to do that in order to retain some form of sanity, whether that is sitting beside a river watching the sun go down or in the arms of another careing human being, then more power to them. Nobody,but nobody has the right to put them on trial and judge them to be wrong .I have really bad days when I long to be held and for someone to just say "Its OK", and if one day I happen to find that in the arms of another woman then so be it, but I will not go out looking for it. If it happens, it happens. Such is life. Donattela, from what came across in her post, was the one who was suffering from the abuse and maybe she just wanted a hug which may have led to other things. SO WHAT! I hope that she finds happiness away from the pondlife that drove her to it.
Have a nice evening.

Helen
27th August 2006, 08:03 PM
Martin,

I apologise for assuming you were one of the ones who had an affair. My assumption (wrong though it was - I accept that) was based on the fact that you were so staunchly in defence of Donatella's actions. Not only that, but you represented it as the 'real world' view, something which I (and many others) disagree with. My 'husband' is now my ex husband. He is my ex because he had his affair with my brother's wife. There are some places people should not go and this is one of them. If he had to have an affair, it should have been with some nameless, faceless woman. But I guess he wanted to maximise the pain he inflicted, hence his choice. And now he is clinically depressed because he accepts I did not deserve the hurt he inflicted. No way was I the kind of wife who deserved to be cheated on, much less cheated on with a relative. And he destroyed his family for nothing because the woman he cheated with turned out to be a benefit cheating, thieving slapper who sleeps around with other men. But that was his choice. He now has to live with it, hence his depression. When we were married, everything was always about him - his feelings, his hurt, his feelings of 'being rejected' (which, as it turned out, were not justified - he now admits this) and he was a man who magnified things and held on to grudges - things that normal people would dismiss became huge in his mind. He even raised one-off things that happened years ago as though they happened yesterday. Like your wife, no amount of talking could resolve things. And I put up with it (like you) and suffered years of depression because I could not understand why we could not resolve things. In the mean time, he chose to have an affair.If someone HAS to do that in order to retain some form of sanity, whether that is sitting beside a river watching the sun go down or in the arms of another careing human being, then more power to them. Nobody,but nobody has the right to put them on trial and judge them to be wrong .If you are that unhappy in your marriage, I think you should end it. Hard though it will be for everyone, your kids will adapt. You, on the other hand, are clinically depressed. This could be your lot for the rest of your life - or at least until the kids are old enough to understand your departure. I don't know how old your kids are but are you content to live like this indefinitely? My view - everyone is entitled to be happy. But no one (even a poor partner, like Donatella's husband) deserves infidelity. Yes, sometimes you want a hug, kiss, whatever from someone but this does not justify cheating. I spent years suffering from depression because I could not get my ex to talk about our relationship. Hell, I could not get him to agree to go to marriage counselling nor could I get him to go to the doctor to seek help for his violent outbursts. Now I wish I had ended things 10 years ago. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Get out and find happiness elsewhere if things are as bad as you describe. Be there for your kids and, when they are older, talk to them about relationships.

I can sympathise with Donatella because her husband sounds horrible but at the same time, I don't sympathise with her having an affair. If her husband is such a pig, she should leave him and if your marriage is as bad as you say it is, you should leave too.

My view.


Helen

martin123
28th August 2006, 02:36 PM
Mornin` Helen!:)

I must admit that I felt rather angry when I replied to you previous reply and accept that maybe I can understand why you get a little upset when I write some of the things that I have in the past, for which I can only and will continue to apologise for. In your latest reply you described your brothers wife as a benefit cheating, thieving slapper. Brilliant!. That made me smile, something that I rarely do these days, and I really thank you for that smile. Don`t suppose you could send me that hug that I so desperatly need?:eek: STEADY MARTIN!!! DONT PUSH YOUR LUCK! Anyway, I do agree with 99.9% of what you have just said, the .1%, well, we`ll just have to push that to one side and accept that we are never going to agree 100%. OK?
As far as my position is concerned, I find myself wanting desperatly to get out of my situation (my wife would love to see me go), but, put simply, I have nowhere to go. I`m sure there are many that have found themselves in exactly the same position and have found the answer. I`m open to suggestions. Only yesterday my wife tore out a picture of a small house for sale from the local paper and told me that it would be ideal for me, so why didn`t I go. If only it was that simple! My therapist, psyciatrist and my doctor who are trying to help me out of my depression have all said that I must make changes, as far as my marriage is concerned, if I am to climb out of this black hole called depression. Easy to say, very very difficult to do. Even as I write this I feel terrible sadness. Sadness that very few understand, but hey!, maybe tommorrow will be a better day. Probably not!

Best wishes to you Helen and if you have a spare hug knocking about, throw it my way.:)
Regards
Martin

me again
30th August 2006, 05:52 PM
My husband (see husband behaves like an adolescent) also drinks heavily and gets abusive, but like Donatella, is great with the kids when he can be bothered and does love me. I am trying to end the relationship, easier said than done. But while were still together I wouldn't dream of cheating on him(well I might dream, but I would never do it.) I believe if it isn't working, you should wait until the relationship is over before you even contemplate looking elsewhere. He is the guilty party in our marriage breakdown and to betray him would make me as guilty. Then again maybe if I did, he might go!

Helen
30th August 2006, 09:10 PM
My husband (see husband behaves like an adolescent) also drinks heavily and gets abusive, but like Donatella, is great with the kids when he can be bothered and does love me. I am trying to end the relationship, easier said than done. But while were still together I wouldn't dream of cheating on him(well I might dream, but I would never do it.) I believe if it isn't working, you should wait until the relationship is over before you even contemplate looking elsewhere. He is the guilty party in our marriage breakdown and to betray him would make me as guilty. Then again maybe if I did, he might go!Hi Me Again,

I just read your previous posts and wanted to say that I admire your strength and fortitude. But I am also amazed (dismayed?) to see that almost 3 years down the line, your husband is still very much in situ and the situation between you hasn't really changed. He is still making and breaking promises and you are still giving him chances. I know you say your husband is great with the kids (when he can be bothered) and loves you but you know he loves the bottle far, far more than he loves any of you.

You said in a previous post that your husband had proposed to transfer the deeds for the house to your name. Has that taken place yet? If so, why is he still there? Tell him to go. He made certain promises to you. While you cannot do anything to stop him drinking, you can certainly enforce his other promise. That was to leave if he broke his committment to get his boozing under control. The sad fact is, as long as you tolerate his presence in the household, you are enabling his drinking behaviour. He needs to hit rock bottom to realise that the only way out of the hole is to change completely and move onwards and upwards. He may well hit realisation but I suspect he won't because he is having a real love affair with the bottle. In the mean time, you need to stop playing mother and start playing hardball with him. It's time for the tough love.

Your kids do not need to witness anything. Wait until they are at school then ask your husband to leave. If he refuses to go, and you really want him to go, have him removed. Yes, it will be upsetting. He is your husband and the father of your kids after all. But you have to harden your heart. He is not an acceptable role model for your children. The relationship you are in with him (and I use the term 'relationship' loosely) is not a healthy thing for your kids to witness. It is not healthy for you either and it could very well drag on for another 3, 5, 10 or 20 years if you are not careful. Yes, ideally, your relationship with him would be close and loving with mutual give and take. This is the sort of example most parents want their kids to see. What you have with him is take and take - and he is doing all the taking. There is no support. There is no respect or regard. And he has all the control too. Your kids are at a highly impressionable age. Your eldest, certainly, is old enough to know what is going on. I suspect your youngest is too. They will form opinions about both of you as parents. They may already have lost respect for their father, although they probably do love him too. Be careful that they don't lose respect for you too.

If finances are a worry, look into what you might be entitled to as a single parent. Certainly, you should be entitled to help with the childcare. If you can't, lots of schools run after school activities. You might want to find our what is on offer at your child's school. You should also get a reduction in your council tax. And you may be entitled to more child tax credits too. Claim whatever you can and don't forget to apply for child support from your husband.

I know it sounds horrible and you are probably sitting there wondering if you can do it. It does have to be your decision but when you are making it, remember, you are making decisions for your kids as well. Whatever you do has to be in their interests first and foremost and in yours too. You have spent many years putting your husband's needs ahead of your own, hence giving him all those chances. Do not let your life and potential shot at happiness disappear under a stream of broken promises. You deserve more and so do your kids.

Take care,


Helen

PS: I too am the child of a violent, alcoholic parent and I can't tell you how many times my nightly prayers included a prayer that my father would leave or my mother would take us and run away. It never happened and all of us kids grew up with mental health issues as a consequence. I echoed my father's drinking behaviour for a while myself but quickly got a grip and stopped drinking. But I needed 2 years of intensive therapy to give up the boozing and explore all the andger and negative feelings my upbringing had left me with. If nothing else, take action to spare your kids this ordeal later in life. Believe me, they will understand and will thank you for it.

me again
30th August 2006, 10:12 PM
Thank you Helen. Wise words I know you are right. I just need to dig deep and find the courage. I know I can manage on my own cos I have for years really. I will put my foot down, now is the time. I am strong I can do this.

Helen
31st August 2006, 12:25 AM
Thank you Helen. Wise words I know you are right. I just need to dig deep and find the courage. I know I can manage on my own cos I have for years really. I will put my foot down, now is the time. I am strong I can do this.Yes, I believe you can. But remember to get your support/shelter networks in place first. And if you cannot bring yourself to have him removed/ask him to leave, remember that you do have the option of leaving yourself. Given that you have children under 18, I have no doubt your local authority will find you somewhere to live.

Take care,


Helen

martin123
31st August 2006, 08:19 PM
Evening Helen:) Hello Me again:)
If I could second what `me again` said about your wise words. Wise and 100% correct. I have endevoured to refrain from posting again because you`ve probably had a skin full of me by now, but I too have to harden my heart if I am to move on. As I said before I am finding it easy to say I must move on if I am to climb out of my depression but finding it not easy to make a positive move that I have been told would, in the long run, help greatly to end my misery. And my wife would be happier if I was not here, because I have become an inconvenience to her. As a man on his own I wouldn`t have a clue where to turn to for help. I certainly don`t want to end up on the streets but having no idea where to go, that is the only solution I can think of. I think that its the fear of the unknown that stops me from moving out. As my therapist said, although I am terribly unhappy with my situation I do have a degree of control within that situation. I think those of you who have suffered from depression will understand that. Also, its the fear of leaving my children. I don`t want to leave them, but they are settled here and it would be wrong for me to cause more problems for them. As you said Helen they will adapt and, of course, I would still see them as often as possible. So, if you have any advice Helen, I would be grateful.
Regards
Martin

Kate
1st September 2006, 12:18 PM
Dear Martin

I have been following your story and not written anything until now. I've had friends with depression and I know from their experience that it is often hard to make decisions. You and your wife do sound very unhappy. However I just want to put in the opposite view to the one that your children will adapt and be ok if you leave. Some children do cope but the research evidence is that marriage break ups do affect the children, sometimes subtly and sometimes not for many years until they try and make their own adult relationships. In fact so long as home life is not high conflict, they are better off having both parents there. I wonder if you have any idea what your children want in this situation. It may be that they would rather not have to adapt, that they would like you to stick around and have mum and dad together. I don't know if they are of an age to ask that question directly and I wouldn't suggest you do that if it's going to increase any sense of insecurity they might have, but it is a question for you to mull over.

Kate
:)

martin123
1st September 2006, 08:26 PM
Hi Kate!:)

I do appreciate your comments because I do need the imput that others can give to help me with my situation. I have two children, my son Craig is 15 and my daughter Kirsty is soon to be 11. Again, I do accept your comments but I feel that the terrible atmosphere in which they are living is not good for them. My children, like all children living in such conditions are not daft. They can see what is going on and seeing all that is happening around them is surely as damaging as it would be if I were to leave. As it is I spend a lot of my time out here in my garage because it feels so uncomfortable for my wife and I to be around each other. You see Kate, I am trying to think what would be the best for everyone, not just for me or how am I going to climb out of my depression. I am not a selfish person. My children come first in all of the ways in which I have tried to resolve this situation. I am trying to asertain what would be best for them. The more I sit with my therapist and all the other people who are trying to help me, and the more they tell me that I must make changes, the more I am coming to terms with the fact that something has to give. As those great people have said, making those changes will hurt, but the hurt will not go on forever. I must find a way to minimise that hurt. Especially for my children.

My very best wishes.
Martin:)

Helen
1st September 2006, 09:25 PM
Evening Helen:) Hello Me again:)
If I could second what `me again` said about your wise words. Wise and 100% correct. I have endevoured to refrain from posting again because you`ve probably had a skin full of me by now, but I too have to harden my heart if I am to move on. As I said before I am finding it easy to say I must move on if I am to climb out of my depression but finding it not easy to make a positive move that I have been told would, in the long run, help greatly to end my misery. And my wife would be happier if I was not here, because I have become an inconvenience to her. As a man on his own I wouldn`t have a clue where to turn to for help. I certainly don`t want to end up on the streets but having no idea where to go, that is the only solution I can think of. I think that its the fear of the unknown that stops me from moving out. As my therapist said, although I am terribly unhappy with my situation I do have a degree of control within that situation. I think those of you who have suffered from depression will understand that. Also, its the fear of leaving my children. I don`t want to leave them, but they are settled here and it would be wrong for me to cause more problems for them. As you said Helen they will adapt and, of course, I would still see them as often as possible. So, if you have any advice Helen, I would be grateful.
Regards
MartinMartin,

While much of what Kate says resonates (particularly the parts about children preferring parents to stay together) I can't say that I agree entirely with what is being said. Yes, it would be best if you could stay with your wife, because that would ultimately be best for your kids. But there is also another side to this equation. What good would you be to your kids if you eventually had a breakdown (God forbid) because you stayed? And what lessons would you be teaching them about healthy relationships?

Regardless of what the research says, staying in a dead marriage/a marriage that drives one partner to clinical depression could actually harm the ability of your children to form healthy relationships in the long term. First, kids, while young, are not stupid. They notice stuff. And second, kids are highly impressionable. They tend to take their cues from both parents. So if you stay in a relationship such as the one you describe, chances are your kids will echo it in some way when they get older.

If you do decide to end things, keeping your kids in the loop will be critical. They do not need to know every detail of what went wrong between you and their mother. They do need to understand that leaving is the last thing you want to do because you love them. Truly. And if you had your way you would stay. But sometimes, especially when you are in a situation that is unendurable, you have to leave because this really is the best solution all round (and if your psychiatrist and others are telling you that you should end things, this would seem to support this point of view). At the end of the day, I am sure they have access to the same research that Kate has cited and no doubt they have weighed up the pros and cons for everyone concerned in relation to your situation. And they are still telling you to leave because what good is an insane parent?

I am the last person to advocate abandoning a spouse and children but sometimes, it can't be avoided. Leaving when you are at crunch point (i.e. on the brink of God knows what) and parting as friends teaches your kids that if you are in a relationship that isn't suitable (note: not that isn't working) sometimes the best option is to part before too much damage is done all round. By this, I mean if, for example, one of your kids was married to an alcoholic or an abusive or violent partner, sometimes the best option really is to walk away - regardless of what research says. Staying in a marriage where you reach rock bottom teaches them that you endure no matter what. So if your partner drinks or beats you up you stay because that is what your mum/dad did and this is what reseach says you should do. But what if you end up dead? This clearly is not the best outcome and a wise person would walk away. But this does not mean you will not be there for them. Above all, ensure they understand the following:

If you leave, you will always love them, you will always be there for them, if they need anything, they can reach you here (location) and your departure isn't about them.My advice to you is think about joint custody. That way, your kids get to stay with both of you (you and your wife) on an equal basis;

To allow this, you need accommodation. If you cannot afford to buy, think about renting. If you rent, you will not be able to pay as much child support. Is this something your wife can live with? It's all very well her pointing out small houses for you to buy but is she willing to accept less money from you to enable you to do this? If she isn't, it is not an option;

The steet is not an option, I agree. Speak to your local authority about the help they can offer a single parent father who wants to share parenting on an equal basis.

If you get nowhere with them, speak to single father pressure groups about the help they can give you/how best to sort yourself out so that you can live alone AND offer a home to your kids.

That is all I can think of after a hard day at work! I will come back tomorrow and post again (I always think better with a clear head!).


Helen

martin123
2nd September 2006, 11:38 AM
Thank you Helen. Your words truely help.. Unfortunalty, after reading them I once again I find myself feeling very alone and in tears.

Helen
2nd September 2006, 03:18 PM
Thank you Helen. Your words truely help.. Unfortunalty, after reading them I once again I find myself feeling very alone and in tears.Martin,

I am glad my words helped but I am also wondering why you are in tears. Why are you feeling this way? Could you share your thoughts?


Helen

mystified
4th September 2006, 01:50 AM
My opinion.....you shouldn't have affairs. Ok so your marriage is bad but sort that out first.

Martin....you sound like somebody who truly loves your kids and they mean the world to you. I don't know your circumstances so I can't comment further. I've been cheated upon and it does seem remarkable that I'm the one in the long run who is going to suffer....my kids mean everything to me too but now I can see all of that disappearing.

martin123
4th September 2006, 09:52 PM
Good evening everyone:)

Well Helen, I could go on about how I have got to the state that I find myself in, but in truth it would probably fill a book. Having someone ask why I am feeling the way I do is, in its self, a rare thing indeed. OK, so my therapist, psychiatrist and my GP ask me the same but it is nice to hear someone other than those wonderful people ask me how I am feeling and why. As you were kind enough to ask I will endevour to tell you a little about how I became one of the many invisible people who are suffering from depression. I say invisible because depression is an illness that no one can see. No blood or bandages. When I talk to people I put on a mask, behind which is a person that they could not even begin to understand. That is one of the hardest things about depression, finding someone who understands just 1% how you are feeling. My wife has never tried to understand. She has never said to me, in the two years that I have been suffering from depression, "How are you feeling today". Since as long as I can remember, I have always tried to help people out if I can. I`m lucky enough to come from an engineering back ground and as a result I can fix just about anything. For many years people have looked on me as thier "Mr Fixit" and I`ve allowed myself to be used more than I should have allowed. Looking back over my life with my therapist it has become apparent that I have become a person who has needed the adulation of others in order to feel a sense of belonging, and the only way I felt I could get that was by putting myself out for others. Trouble is, I never took time out for myself. Apparently, this stems from my childhood when I could never seem to please my father. If anthing went wrong it had to be someting to do with me. Nothing I did was ever good enough. I would see my parents constantly shouting and argueing. If I cried as a child he would tell me that it was a bad thing to do. I can remember as a small child falling asleep under the hedge where I felt some sense of security.To this day, I hate it when people shout. My depression didn`t happen over night. For many years I was working twelve to eighteen hour nights. Getting home between 5am and 6am, absolutely exhausted. After only an hours sleep I would be woken by my wife shouting at my children or the children crying because she had upset them. I would get up and ask what the problem was only to get a barage of abuse from my wife saying how the children were horrible and that she could not do anthing with them. This happened pratically everyday. As a result I was getting very little sleep, 5 hours was a luxury. After years of this happening my health started to decline. I lost a lot of weight. I got very down and, of course, I was always tired. I started to get emotional episodes where I would drive down the road and just start crying for no reason. It was then that my brother was found to have bowl cancer and after only a few short weeks I saw him suffer horribly and eventually die. I have been told that his death was probably the straw that broke the camels back as far as my health was concerned and as a result I became increasingly desperate and depressed. I longed to have someone to help me through that difficult time, but I had no one. A point that I have become more aware of as time has gone on. That is one of the first things that my therapist said to me when I started seeing him. "You don`t have anyone. Do you!" Anyway, on top of the lack of sleep, trying to please everyone and my brother dying I have had to cook the meals for my children on thier return from school because my wife doesn`t know how to cook and has never wanted to or tried to learn. If the meals were left to her my children would be eating microwavable chips and cold meats from a tin. Thats something I could not and cannot allow and one of the things that frightens me if I were to leave now. Even now, I have come into the house to find the children have got chocolate mini rolls and coke for thier breakfast. Am I being unreasonable to think that that is not right???
So, I could go on, but I hope that that gives you a small insight into what has driven me to stand by the side of the local canal, on more than one occassion, and thought about doing something that some people who have come to thier wits end have done. Yes! I have thought about suicide and have got very close to doing that, but I couldn`t do that to my children. I keep asking myself how long I can continue in this way, and as I mentioned before Helen, when I`m on my own I still cry. I cry a lot. Maybe thats what keeps me going. Maybe thats the way that I am able to cope with the feeling of hopelessness and the intense lonelyness that I feel every day. The feeling of being on my own in this battle, because thats how it feels. A non stop battle to keep my sanity.
I`m sure there are some who read this will say that I am in some way fabricating all this. I can only assure you that what I have said is the truth and is only a tiny glimpse into my reasons for my depression. As I said at the beginning, it would fill a book.


Martin

Helen
4th September 2006, 10:21 PM
Martin,

So much of what you say resonates, it's frightening. My ex was like your wife. He wasn't completely hopeless - for example, he tried to cook but resented it mightily (if he did anything in the house, he behaved like a martyr and this is a man who decorated only once in 20 years...) and I know, if left up to him, our son would have lived on chips and pizza. I wasn't raised on these meals (I wouldn't even eat KFC as a child because it wasn't what I was used to) and was taught to cook by my mother so I made a point of cooking for the family, from scratch, every day. Unlike your wife, both my parents took turns cooking. My mother was better at it but at least my dad tried. But my dad was also a boozer and he was violent with it.

My ex was nasty when it came to my cooking (I trained under a gourmet chef and won rave reviews from friends and colleagues when I cooked for them yet he declared everything I cooked 'disgusting' and used to make a show of scraping the plate into the bin). He was unsympathetic when it came to my depression too, despite being the cause, something which made it worse, I think. I remember going off to therapy 10 years ago. My counsellors used to say some pointed things about him and, since I was in group therapy, my cohort had some very negative things to say about him too. They thought he was cold and manipulative - they didn't like him at all. And they were right, I belatedly realised... My ex never hit me but he had a violent temper. He used to break things in the house. Nothing could be discussed because I was 'victimising' him. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was 2 things. First, my ex raped me several times in my sleep, despite knowing how I felt about being touched when I was unconscious. Some women are up for this sort of thing, I know but I wasn't because I was sexually abused twice as a child and there were uncomfortable parallels with what he was doing. All of this said, he knew I didn't like it but did it, regardless. And then he turned around and made out like the problem was mine. The last, last straw was when he started an affair with my brother's wife and told her I was a frigid, selfish b!tch. I was nothing of the sort. The thing that hurt, as well as the betrayal, was the fact that he never once took responsibility for what he did. The last, last straw really was the last straw. I told him to leave, tried to work with him to repair things (but he would not give up the other woman, nor would he agree to go to marriage counselling or even talk about our marital problems); so I divorced him. And I can honestly say I am happier today than I have been in a long, long time.

The other thing about your story that resonated was about your need to please. Snap! That was me too, 10 years ago. I was raised by parents too wrapped up in their own dramas to care about me properly, hence I was put in a position to be abused twice and both times, I was made to feel like it was my fault. The first time it happened I was 7. The second time a lodger in our house abused me from ages 9 - 13. My father, though a boozer, was always proud of the fact that I was bright. My mother made me feel worthless because I looked like my father, her tormentor. Even when I became a successful model, she was hypercritical of everything I did. Even when I got my various degrees and got a job that paid 3 times more than anything she had ever earned, she made me feel like dirt. Therapy helped me to realise I did not need her approval. I am my own woman! Pity is I didn't pick up that message about my ex until 10 years after therapy started...

Going back to you, I suspect the reason why you are paralysed at the moment is because you don't know where to start. Yes, change has to happen but when you are depressed, it is hard, nay impossible, to make decisions. It is hard to see what decisions need to be made much less make them! My advice to you is buy a notebook and make it your best friend. Write things down. How you feel, what you want out of life, that sort of thing. Focus on the positive (i.e this is what I want rather than this is what I don't want). Then work with your therapists to prioritise and then come up with practical ways to achieve your goals. It will help - honestly. At the end of the day, I can sit here and tell you to leave but I do not walk in your shoes. You do. You have access to help - my advice is to use it.

Finally, do not necessarily view things as you having to leave your kids with your wife. From what you describe, it sounds to me as though your kids could grow up scarred and malnourished if they stay with her. Explore options with therapists and the groups I have described that will enable you to keep them. Seek legal advice - if you don't have much money, go to a law centre or CAB. I sense you feel alone and are unable to make a decision because you cannot envisage a future without close contact with your kids. You need them and they need you. A future with your kids would probably do much to lift your depression. So you need a plan. One that you can live with. Only then will you be able to make decisions and take the action you clearly need to take.

I have to finish writing a paper for work tomorrow so I have to go now. Do take care Martin and let me know how you are getting on.


Helen

mystified
5th September 2006, 07:48 PM
Firstly Martin that is a brave thing to do....to open up and tell your story.

I can relate to quite a lot of it too. I was never good enough for my dad when I was growing up...that's no big deal now though. Like you I'm always trying to please others and put others first....I find it hard to do something I like cos that seems selfish (to me). I'm my hardest judge and nothing I do is good enough. However I'm beginning to see that I should put my needs higher up the agenda....no not to be selfish but at least to give myself parity with others - for some people that may seem odd as their needs are way above all others. I think you need to reward yourself as you are a good person with good values.

As for suicide....no way man. You have children who need you. You also will rebuild your self-esteem and one day things will be great....it will be slow but hang in there.

My wife was depressed but then she was in the middle of her affair and there was nothing I could do for her...I was hurting too. I think you need to slowly rebuild your confidence and to look at the beauty around you and see how lucky each of us are....that sounds corny but there are so many wonderful things that each of us takes for granted.....even a small kiss from our children. Ok I'll hang up now.

martin123
7th September 2006, 10:20 PM
Hello again:).
I`ve had a bad day or so and have at last managed to retreat to my cave where I can at least try to find time to reflect on a repeat of yesterday (and the day before that and the day before that etc etc) and reply to your supportive words. My life continues to be the repetative, sad existance that many of you have suffered in the past. After reading your last reply Helen, my troubles seem pretty insignificant compared to the terrible things you have had to endure. I am genuinly pleased that you have found the strength and fortitude to win your battle, and that gives me hope that one day I will find a way out of my black hole. My wife, like your ex, does on the very rare occassion try to cook but she also behaves like a martyr and makes such a big issue of it. Because of her reactions to doing the things that she feels she shouldn`t do, because she believes thats what I am here for, I am made to feel guilty. So I find myself back to having to please all the time. It`s a vicious circle. What ever I do or say is wrong or I am made to feel it`s wrong because it`s my fault. What makes me so sad about this is that it`s totally out of character to the man I used to be. My depression has changed me so much. I hate being this way. When I told my therapist all this he asked me what kind of person I would like to be. All that I could say to him was that I just want to get up in the morning and look forward to my day with just a little happiness. That kind of day seems so distant if not impossible. Something that has resulted from my meetings with him is that he suggested that I take time out to be on my own and do the things that used to give me pleasure. I have tried this but it has only serves to inflame the situation. Perhaps if I explain the sort of thing that I mean you will understand a little better how I am feeling. I go for long walks at night when the children are in bed or during the day if I can get away. These walks can last for 4,5,6 hours. Sometimes when the shouting gets just too much I just get in the car and will drive to remote places such as a beach were I sit and beg someone to beam me up. Of course that never happens and after long hours of contemplation reality kicks in and I drive home getting more amd more depressed at the thought of having to go back to this dreadfull place. One of the places that I often visit is the grave of one of my dogs who is buried by the side of the canal where he drowned after falling from the boat that I owned at the time. To cut a long story short, and I suppose I`m telling you this because it is one of the things that I get upset about when I talk about my depression. I dived into the canal, which is some 50 metres wide and managed to get hold of him. I swam holding his collar until I was about 10 yards from the bank but he had started to pull me under and I had to let him go. His collar was returned to me several days later by the workmen who found him and buried him. To this day I blame myself for his death. Telling you about it has reduced me, once again, to tears. Anyway, it`s just another one of those episodes that amplifies my feelings of guilt and the belief that if things go wrong then I must be to blame. When I go on my little walks at all hours during the day or night I return to angry questions like "where the hell have you been" or (and get this) " Been out to see your fancy woman". Never have I been greated by a nicety such as " whats up, are you having a bad day" or " have you been for a nice walk, you should do it more often ". I have the great and the good telling me to take time for myself and when I do I just get more grief. So I ask myself is it worth it? I`m stuck between a rock and a hard stone. Damned if you do Martin, damned if you don`t.
So once again Helen (and Mystified), I thank you for being there and reading my dribble but it does help to know that there is someone out there that does understand how I`m feeling. Even if it`s only at distance via this forum.

Health and continued happiness
Martin:)

Helen
11th September 2006, 12:12 AM
Martin,

I think you have got into a negative pattern of behaviour to deal with your feelings of anger. Depression is often caused by repressed anger - did you know that? I spent many, many years swallowing my own rage because trying to talk to my ex just led to tantrums, broken items, violent outbursts and sulking on his part. I had 2 spells of clinical depression when I was married to him. The first was in 1993 just after he assaulted me for the third time. I guess I was depressed because I realised, after he carried on doing it despite my protests, just how little he thought of me as a person and my feelings didn't even come into it. That realisation didn't dawn until after we parted because I pretty much managed to submerge all memory of his assaults. I blamed myself for everything and thought there was something wrong with me, which was another cause of my depression. Or so I thought. When we parted, I realised I was depressed because my ex treated me like a piece of property and I was angry about it. I was angry because he put me right back in that dark place I had been in several times as a child.

Your problems are not insignificant. My demons have been dealt with, to the main part. Even the things I didn't talk about in therapy are easier to deal with. I can certainly think about them without feeling bad or wondering if they happened due to something I did.

I was sorry to read about your dog and I do understand your pain. But Martin, you cannot blame yourself for what happened. When it comes down to it, it was either you and the dog or the dog. It seems clear to me, from what you describe, that one of you was going to die that day. At least one of you. You did your best. This is what you have to tell yourself. Losing a much loved pet in this way must be akin to losing a child, in some ways. Have you ever spoken to anyone about what happened? I am talking bereavement support. If not, I think you should because it is clear that you still feel a lot of grief and guilt about what happened that day at the canal. I am not proposing that you forget what happened but you need to find a way to come to terms with it. Blaming yourself isn't going to help.

I am curious about your relationship with your wife. Sorry to say it (and apologies if I offend) but she sounds like a right dragon! You have not described a single, loveable quality about her. So I have to ask: how did the two of you get together? What did you love about her in the beginning? And when did things change? As for her throwing tantrums because you take some me time, I tend to think that is too bad. You need that space because she is making your life a misery. What sort of conversations do you have with her when she makes you feel at fault for everything that goes wrong? I am curious about the words that are exchanged - the dynamic between you. What is your countenance like? Do you hang your head and apologise or do you stand your ground? And when she asks about 'your fancy woman' what do you say?

I have to go (should have gone a while ago!) as I have an early start tomorrow. No doubt we will 'speak' again soon.

Take care,


Helen

Lawrence
25th September 2006, 11:03 AM
Yes I agree with Helen.
Donatella is a classic example of how people (especially women) seem to prefer to jump ship rather than abandon ship. Funny eh? Now why's that? I bet you that if her sonny jim hadn't appeared on the scene she would still be married. When you cut through all the bilge that one hears about why an affair was justified it's all about looking out for number one and in the case of many women, feeling "seventeen again" and exercising what they see to be their media encouraged biological prerogative to get the alpha male. If current hubby is on the slip for whatever reason dump him. You deserve better etc etc. No, as Helen said - if you are unhappy & miserable in your marriage and are "getting involved with for somebody else" - do the right thing and END it. Then your new relationship is morally & ethically clean. Your ex is likely to be devastasted enough by the initiative to end the marriage. Adultery & sexual infidelity to boot magnifies the pain 10 fold. Better for the kids as well because word DOES get around the school playground.

donatella9
27th December 2006, 12:37 AM
We all have to take responsibility, not only for our experiences but also for what 'happens' to us. Often inaction is as culpable as action.

Yes, Helen I did encourage my husband to compromise with me, he chose not to. I was in such a state of low self worth, that when I was offered love I took it.

You say you care because of your child, you should care because of yourself, no one else will for you. Healing comes from within, learning to love and accept ourselves and the inadvertent mistakes we make which lead to our unhappiness. Maybe your husband did communicate his unhappiness, there are many ways other than words, and you didn't hear. It is not bad, just sad that we can be so unreceptive to the person we care for most.

Although I am divorcing my husband, I do care for him and I do want the best for him. Ironically he will now make a really good sensitive husband, unfortunately it took the destruction of our marriage to achieve the understanding.

The most important thing now is the relationship my children have with their Father, and nothing is going to stand in the way of that, particularly not me.

Seeing things from another point of view does not make your experience wrong, it only means that there is another way of looking at things, and that can be very freeing. Only fear holds us back from seeing from another point of view as we all need to be right.

Me included!!!!!!!!

Helen
28th December 2006, 10:30 AM
"Yes, Helen I did encourage my husband to compromise with me, he chose not to. I was in such a state of low self worth, that when I was offered love I took it "

I was in the same boat with my ex. But I guess people are different because when I was offered love elsewhere, I said no - I am a married woman. But like I said, I guess people respond in different ways because they are...well...different.


"You say you care because of your child, you should care because of yourself, no one else will for you."

I care about my ex's health because my child cares. If it were just me, I doubt I would be any more concerned than I am about a colleague - if that. The truth is, the more time that passes (and we have been apart for 18 months and divorced for almost a year) the less concerned I am about him and his feelings. I don't feel the need to care 'for me' any more than I do already! I can honestly say I do care about me and I care about my child and I guess I have a more than average concern for people in trouble. But I cannot seem to muster up any real feelings about my ex any more. No idea why. I guess he has hurt me so much over the years and this is what I remember now more than anything.


"Maybe your husband did communicate his unhappiness, there are many ways other than words, and you didn't hear. It is not bad, just sad that we can be so unreceptive to the person we care for most."

He did communicate about certain things (i.e. if he had a problem) but he did not want to talk about it or do anything about it (i.e. work with me to resolve things). He used communication as a means of controlling me and destroying my self-esteem. Little did I know that his communications were being influenced by someone else. Sometimes he would come out with phrases which I now know were coming from the other woman and being regurgitated by him. They sounded so odd. His communication style was to moan and criticise and then fly off the handle the minute I tried to talk to him in more depth about what he was saying (mainly because he didn't like to have his accusations challenged in any way or disproved). He didn't communicate about general, everyday things. He told me he did not give a sh!t about my job but would moan on incessantly about his own. The man was and is just plain selfish. Even his sister says it! Believe me, I am no slouch in the comms department - colleagues say this all the time - but I could not communicate with this man. No idea why.


"The most important thing now is the relationship my children have with their Father, and nothing is going to stand in the way of that, particularly not me"

You and me both. When I split from my ex, my son was so disgusted with his father that he wouldn't talk to him or go to see him at first. I made him go. I told him that regardless of what had happened between his father and me, his dad loved him and had been a good dad to him. He would miss him (because I tossed him out) and I told my son that I felt it was important that he maintain a good relationship with his dad. Still my son wouldn't go. So I used to dial his father's number and put the phone in his hand when his dad answered. And I used to chase my son out of the house to see his dad. My son was 18 and old enough to know what had happened (which was the reason for his rage). He now sees his dad 3 or 4 times a week and they have a great relationship.


"Seeing things from another point of view does not make your experience wrong, it only means that there is another way of looking at things, and that can be very freeing. Only fear holds us back from seeing from another point of view as we all need to be right.

Me included!!!!!!!!"

I don't think an affair is right in any circumstance. Yes, some people might feel it's justified but it never is justifiable to cheat on the person you committed to in the eyes of God. To turn around and say you still love them and care about them after cheating on them is just a joke too - my view. If you love that person and care about them, how can you cheat on them? This is something I never understood with my ex. When I told him to leave and instigated divorce proceedings, apparently he was devastated. I had to ask him why - I thought that was what he wanted. But no. Like many cheats, he wanted to have his cake and eat it and hoped I would never find out. Maybe someone could tell me why some cheats do this? Truth be told, all the lies hurt almost as much as finding out about the cheating...

Wittered on enough.


Helen