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1aokgal
28th March 2009, 07:01 AM
Dear Ag...

A crate is what they call a quite large cage with a open cage door at each end. Puppy has a $45 comfy bed in it and his toys (his stuffed goose that honks). A crate keeps the dog penned until he is house trained well and has good manners. They won't soil in their crate with the bed and toys. You take them out often when needed. In my dogs' case he is pretty good at house manners but if I go upstairs to work in the room up there I "crate" him so he does not abuse the house or a cat. This is a training tool used for the early months to train the dogs. Those who work may crate their dog if the dog is destructive while alone.

In time, dogs earn more freedom as he often comes upstairs now and sits beside me in the bedroom when I clean in there. I can't take him in my workroom as it is an "animal free zone" for hairs on the fabrics. I make victorian outfits and sell them on the internet. I sure don't need a black velvet bodice with a dog hair or two on it.

I think keeping a dog outside is not right, as many do. I have to work extra hard to make mine a joy to have in the house by running the vacuum every day and brushing him. I take him for a walk in the light rain.

yes, the rain has me down as he cannot get out so much into the yard and I drive him to a day care center like a kid and pay to keep him for the day so I can work here. Gives him socialization and gives me time to sew here. A lot like providing for a young child.

Yes, I do love really sunny days and long for the summer when the dog and I can enjoy the pool and the resort style living we have in this area. People come from all over to visit a week or so here for the ideal climate and all the activities around here. I also have a significant nice boat and look forward to getting out and spending an overnight sometimes off the coastline. There is nothing like pulling into the marina and having dinner aboard and just enjoying the evening. I think this big dog will love that as my other one did.

My therapy is to keep very busy with the creative things I make and sell. I have found a wonderful niche for my work. It is successful financially and I love to create beautiful items. One client an actress, in Boston now and the play opens in Mid May. She will wear my 1885 designs created for her role. Already I have clients approach from a movie company and one biz located in Belguim who want my gowns. Each one is fun to conceive and launch out there. I consider to sub out some minor work to two seamstresses for undegarments as I need a regular source.

Goodnight to all.

Dakereb
30th March 2009, 12:30 AM
1aokgal, seems you have a great business going there. That must be very fulfilling. That sort of purpose is what I'll need to move forward.

My wife and I and our daughter are planning a visit to Boston this summer to see my niece, who is graduating from a well known college up there. Are you familiar with the area? Can you recommend any activities or sights or restaurants we should not miss?

I will eventually be taking vacations by myself, but this one has to be with my wife, as this is a family event. I don't mind it, as long as we don't start disagreeing with each other regarding what to do. She is really sensitive to that sort of thing, considering it a put-down. You know what I mean. The trip is planned for early June. I plan on using the new camera a LOT. It will be my first trip to Boston.

Ageing Grace
30th March 2009, 03:21 AM
She is really sensitive to that sort of thing, considering it a put-down. You know what I mean.
I don't :confused: What do you mean, D?

Boston sounds great! I'm envious.

AG x

1aokgal
30th March 2009, 10:27 PM
Dear All...

I don't live in Boston. Only my client does. She wears one of my costume designed gowns in her new play opening there Mid May. It is my task to costume her character, a wealthy woman of 1880. Picture the movie, Age of Innocence, and you get the type of lavish gowns worn by such a woman. I have shipped gowns made over some tedious days, even weeks to beautiful ladies in 5 countries... and many of them for theatrical use.

This passion to make dresses/ensembles from the Victorian ages started for me many years ago. I make and wear them myself to Victorian teas, a Victorian Society outings and formal dinner events and such. One event in April is a tea salute to the queen. Which queen? Why Queen Victoria, of course. So those of you in UK can imagine I will be corseted, bustled and dressed beautifuly with only the best fabrics as silks and velvet for the lovely occasion. I can really forget other things when I open the doors of two closets and have some of the most fabulous hats and gowns to go out for these events. Thank gosh, the rainy spell may now be over as it must be just like in England the last 10 days. I am a sunshine person.

Many of my appearances have been to show the intricrasies of the outfits I wear to ladies who come from the "today" world. Now, that is as pure escapism as one can have. Wouldn't you say? It is a world enchanted and perhaps my finest moments to plan, execute and work to bring forth a creation of beauty. One of these outfits represents hours, days and sometimes weeks of needlwork with appliques, embroidery and beadwork.
It has been over 25 years since I lived near Boston though.Sure would be nice to go up to see this client sometime soon. She is also a playwrite, so I suspect she is now caught up in the Victorian mode from discussions we have had. Her next venture has to be along the same line.

Hope you are doing OK here. I think I am doing my therapy with
substitution of other nice things.

Ageing Grace
31st March 2009, 03:44 AM
Lovely reply, 1AOKG, though I'm not sure what it has to do with a sexless marriage :D

As a hobby dressmaker, I can appreciate your love of making those clothes - though not your romanticisation of the era! Too close to home - one of my grannies was a kitchen maid, taken into service at the age of 13; slept in the fireplace. My other grandmother was of the educated 'set' ... and her marriage was almost entirely sexless, the Victorian/Edwardian era being spectacularly hypocritical about sex! Gentlemen did it; ladies didn't - and the sluts, who did it with the gentlemen, died from bad abortions or gonhorrhea. For goodness sake, they even put skirts on the piano and chair legs, as legs were considered obscene!!

At least my grannies came in at the end of the era. They were young enough to enjoy the Twenties (great outfits & parties: double standards still in force, though) - and then had the dubious benefit of working for decent wages throughout two wars, only to be shunted back into the kitchen (bow in hair, etc) as soon as the fighting was over. They had bloody weird lives, but all of us women owe whatever freedoms we have, now, to the efforts they made - bit by painful bit. My mother's aunts were even suffragettes! It wasn't cool. They were stripped, raped, tarred & feathered, humiliated and shunned. Horrific experiences for nice girls who blushed at the sight of a piano leg ... They were very brave. We got the right to vote! My servant granny was a gypsy; full Romany. Gypsies were treated like dogs - dogs weren't treated very well in those days, either. She did have incredible luck, though. As you know I'm not superstitious, but I can't deny Gran's amazing ability to know where you might find a soggy ten-pound note, or to bump into the right people just when you needed them. That may equally have come from surviving unspeakably hard times, though ...

Substitution isn't therapy, oh lovely one, especially if it's based on romantic fantasises. I wouldn't for a minute dismiss the pleasure of creating something gorgeous, nor of building a beautiful fantasy world in one's own imagination; they're both gifts the world is always short of, and always undervalues. Your contribution, in just those respects, is wonderful.

But it's not therapy! Even if you stick with your Victorian fantasy for now ... America was built on dreams, plans visions - and blood, sweat & tears. Those plantation wives, who wore the dresses you recreate, died young. It was not uncommon for a New American to get through 5 wives in a lifetime. During their rare and perfunctory marital sex (lights out, nightdress on) the wives caught STDs from their husbands, which further complicated childbirth in which they frequently died. Millions of men, women and children died in conditions of slavery (or, if they were white, near slavery).
They were the best of times, and the worst of times.

Don't mistake me: I think it's lovely to celebrate the sheer guts of those people, their power of vision, the rebirth of science, and their spectacular commitment to God and Beauty despite what was going on in their everyday lives. You always strike me as someone who lives in the blurred borderline between fact and perception. It's funny to think of you working so hard to recreate the flawed, pretty perceptions of past times. But kind of sweet.

I've been re-reading Dickens and Steinbeck. Can you tell? :p

AG x

1aokgal
31st March 2009, 06:56 AM
Dear AG...

Here I am in my little escapist world. It is 1AM. I stop my "sweat shop" sewing to post here before I cut out a new garment to sew tomorrow. Regardless of the world I make here and how much I enjoy some of it....it is work. My back gets sore like anybody else who bends over a project too long. You are well informed on the under belly of the historical life of women of yesterdays. There were elegant fringe trimmed curtains and hand painted light globes that survive to shine today.
You have an interesting family and women in UK or here in the US in the early years, did not have charmed lives. Marriage was often a form of servitude. The lack of birth control meant a woman buried stillborn babies and hard work and female illnesses assured that often a man married several times as he outlived wives with delicate health.

There were children that died in fires in tenements when women worked by candlelight to do piece work brought home from the factory..paid by the pieces she sewed. There was consumption and diseases among the seamstresses who toiled to sew and embroider the luxery fabrics worn by the upper class ladies. There were disasters in New York garment districts where young girls of 12 or 13 sewed for the wealthy. The same kind of garments were made then that I now make for women in the theatre or for victorian collections. Women today can afford extremely expensive gowns with sometimes 100 hours work in them.

Women of any time have never had it great as you point out. My incredibly gifted forbear, whose portrait I painted, had a miserable life in 1880 and poor health. Even my grandmother who I remember well, had a very difficult life and was dealt some harsh realities for her time. She was a too-young wife and mother of three, and widowed in her 20's. She married again for security. He was a nice but dull man with a good and stable job. It seems there were problems, since his job was on the railroad, he was always gone. They say he frequented a prostitute only once but the repercussions of that was he lost the love of his young wife and developed Syphilis.
Buck was very kind to me as I remember him when I was 5. I remember my grandmother went days to visit him in a state asylum where he died a long and lingering death. My grandmother later worked in factory production.

As one who craves, needs air conditioning in the especially hot summers in this humid area... it is hard to imagine how women suffered the clothing and bindings that were vogue. It is true that women were often so tightly laced to distend the rib cage bones out of place. When I make corsets to be worn with the dresses I ship out, I can imagine how unbearable it must have been for women to lace in through monthly cycles.

What does all this have to do with sexless marriage? It is simply my world.... which is different than your world. I do unusual work to provide the income for my nice world rather than to sit secure while my husband provides it all. Many women never worked nor desire to do so. I always have done so. Starting with some real miserable situations I always found a way to bring in a significant amount of money. Generally, I found the best place to do that was to go where men go, because typically women's work dosen't pay.

So I sold pools, cars, diamonds, houses, insurance. The early jobs were less lucrative and really poor but if I worked two jobs I could make it OK. So I waitressed, did housekeeping, telemarketing, video coupons, made paper flowers, wallpapered, and always could sew and found my items did really well. I also have been able to do a type of consulting work with very wealthy clients who paid my flight arrangements/travel to go where they live or work. So a lot of life for me keeps me very busy and gives me a way to deaden out some areas of life that are not successful or happy.

There are times though when it takes superhuman effort to keep a life full when there is a part missing that is so integral in a marriage. Maybe I am driven because of this or maybe it is my way to deal with it. I am not quite sure on that part.

I don't deal with the issue in the marriage. It is never discussed as that would doubtless be a confrontation not a discussion. It has all been done in the past. Nothing remains to be said. There is also the fact I live constructively as a single person in that he is not here. So if something were to be discussed there is never a time it could be altered.

I have no desire to change my life as it is here now. It seems to be as good as it could ever be. That is not the worst it might be. So I enjoy to have as active a life as I can lead. I love it when I can be an outdoor person so hope that better weather comes so I can get on the trails with the dog. It would be so nice to find a pal who enjoys to go along on such outings.
It might be break down this way....."It is the best of times, it is the worst of times."
Such a fine sentiment for the opening line of a stunning book. You, Brits, really contributed great literature.

AG, sometimes I think you see things too black and don't allow yourself the mist of seeing things a little mellow. Where is your meditative spot? Self hypnosis is a place you visualize, that is beautiful as a quiet meadow with rambling brook. One then projects themselves to that spot for a period of time. Like if you get a tooth fixed, you go there. You need to go there more often because your take on reality is too harsh.

I go to that softer place more often in the things I do and enjoy. Some use this ability to release things unpleasant. You see things too graphic. I think you will lose the ability to believe in dreams. Dreams won't happen for you if you don't think they will. My relative left me the ability to see ahead things and to visualize things as they will occur. It has always proved to be accurate.

Dakereb
1st April 2009, 01:29 AM
AG, what I mean about my wife considering my imposing my plans to be a put-down is that she reads such actions as my saying I don't like her way of planning things. She takes it very personally. Yes, she's a smidge insecure. So, for the trip to Boston, the best I can do is ask her to please plan a bit of unstructured time. She loves to plan out every minute of a trip, and I love to just wander and let events unfold. I'm too much into wanderlust, and she's too much into rigid planning. We gotta meet in the middle somewhere!

1Aokgal, I really understand what you are saying about gray areas, and having a bit of emotional escape from time to time. When you are faced with circumstances that are beyond your control, a coping mechanism is needed. A trip in your mind to a peaceful place can certainly take the edge off. It is good to actually visit such a place of escape in real life in order to keep the imagery fresh in your mind. I've been missing that. I need a nice vacation.

Therapist sessions are going good. I just got back from the last one. I need to sort through my thoughts before I can comment on it. For what it's worth, I recommend therapy. You can't change your situation, but you can change your response to it. Too often when we are confronted with intractable problems we latch on to coping mechanisms that are unhealthy, whether they be obsessive behavior, allowing our minds to dwell on 'what if' tragedies that might occur, to chronically acting out sexually, through promiscuity, pornography, or masturbation. My favorite ways of improperly dealing with issues is to obsess over all the possible tragedies that might happen, pandemics, loss of income, illness, whatever. I sometimes let them overtake my life. My goal is to put my trust in God, and not let those events that I cannot control take control of me. By retaking control of my mind and my life, I can build the strength I will need to move forward, with or without the spouse. I will set my course, and she can come along with me or let me go, but I won't be waiting for her.

God bless you all.

1aokgal
1st April 2009, 02:13 AM
Dear Dakereb...

I am glad you found the therapy to be helpful. As you said there are many places people go to escape an intractable situation. Some cannot alter or change the basics but there has to be plans in place to live the best one can given the circumstances.

Sometimes I like to go see a good escapist movie. Nothing about murder, crimes or street violence as that is too real. I like beautiful people and places and unusual thinking movies. I saw just one like that a few days ago called, Knowing" with Nicolas Cage. It is built on the premise of what we believe about our world. Is there a master plan or do all events"just occur" as stuff happens? Does one believe in creation or the big bang theory? The character is a man of science who lost his wife in a freak accident the year before and has lost his faith. He is unable to heal from the loss. He has also lost his faith and he is a ministers' son. He wants to protect his son and make sure he has a good life.

The movie has some freaky scary moments and the story is riveting to say the least. I went a second time when my husband was here. He enjoyed it too. Then the movie came to life. Sunday night about 9:30PM there was a freak occurrence in several states that brought this movie to mind. People in 3 states reported an explosion, a blast of light and a boom so loud houses and windows rattled. It has yet gone unexplained but it seems creepy after the movie some space occurrence as a meteor or space station debris may have entered the atmosphere. It also brings one to think about how they view the possibility of a planet in peril. I think many here who experienced this are nervous. The event was so powerful and still remains a mystery.

I know my house rocked and the windows rattled. An explosion of some strength occurred which must be of significance somewhere. Perhaps it is like our teachers used to tell us in school, that our souls should always be prepared for the end. If it was the end today, would you be ready? That is worth some analysis.

Ageing Grace
1st April 2009, 02:38 AM
Thank you both for your wonderful replies :)

You've picked me up where I needed it, 1aok! I am becoming too gloomy in my outlook. I've been letting my imaginary beach trips slide, allowing criticism to get to me ... and spending too much time here, reading posts from people in despair :eek:

My last psychologist appointment was rescheduled (all the staff had flu). I think I should try to bring it forward some; I do need some more help, as my own resources aren't always up to scratch in isolation. They've put me on the waiting list for a course of narrative therapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_therapy), which sounds right up my street: it's basically about re-telling my own story in a more constructive way! You'll probably agree I could do with that :p

D, I'm so pleased you're getting interested in your own therapy! Lots of people (myself included) rebel furiously at the outset, convinced we're OK as we are :D It's great that you're seeing it as a beneficial tool from the outset. Been a long time coming, but I'll bet you're on fast-forward from here!!

I'm aware I seem to be banging a drum, in this forum, about the benefits of counselling. That's because ... when bad things happen to us, which we don't understand ... our incapacity to understand is a signal that we do not understand ourselves very well.

Different, of course, if the bad thing is a natural disaster or a war. Even in such events, you'd find the 'saner' people coping better. Where the bad things are all to do with relationships, you can be sure there's some fixing to be done. We can't magically fix others but we can (almost magically) fix ourselves!

Thanks for explaining about your forthcoming trip. It's very nice of you to accommodate your wife's need to plan every minute, and to have already proposed a compromise! I'm a "messer-about" when travelling, too - for me, the learning is in absorbtion. I can - and do - pick up a fairly comprehensive understanding of a place, and its language if relevant, by wandering around and sitting for hours at cafes. It's hugely irritating for companions who prefer a "read, list, do" approach.

Although I feel as if they're trying to subjugate a whole city by reducing it to a schedule of targets to be met, such companions and I make a good team. The mobile/cell phone has made it all so easy! They can find out where I'm meandering, meet me there when it suits them, and I'll fill them in on all the minutiae they haven't time to notice. In exchange, I get to visit selected Important Sights with them - at an appropriate time, instead of arriving there by accident, just as the doors are about to close!!

I do hope your trip goes well, and is a pleasure for you both.

Dakereb said:By retaking control of my mind and my life, I can build the strength I will need to move forward, with or without the spouse. I will set my course, and she can come along with me or let me go, but I won't be waiting for her.This is utterly inspiring - and generous in spirit.
It's taken you a long time to get here, D. I salute you :)

Love to you both,
AG xx

1aokgal
1st April 2009, 03:29 AM
Dakereb..

Hope you have a great trip. How about you plan an outing you enjoy on the trip? Is there a place you would enjoy? With cell phones we can meet up and not get lost in a crowd somewhere.

Or bring some reading matter so you can park yourself in quiet and let them see the art or paintings whatever and you do some of what you enjoy. You remind me, I need to get out more. There is a gallery opening and I will go visit when it opens the new show on Friday evening. Ordinarily, I would just work until late.

AG, you are such an amazing and dear person I cannot imagine that you are having such a difficult time and hope you gain by any breakthrough you can make. If narrative therapy is to tell ones' story, many of us would have such fantastic yarns to get out that even we think the story must be too bazarre to have happened. Yet it all did occur.

One has to put on hip boots and just wade through the bad stuff and get to the caramel filled center like a bitter chocolate cover on a bar. Life is basically good and there are great and wonderful things yet in store for you. One cannot see that if your eyes are cast down. Nothing can happen bad if you have your health. What was in the past..is over. Maybe some of the adverisity shapes us better. We could not appreciate the better things if we had not experienced some of the past. Maybe I am too simplistic on how I see things.
xxooxx 1aokgal

Dakereb
2nd April 2009, 02:29 AM
The late 1800's is a popular time to romanticize about, but, given the actual harsh reality of the day, I am glad to be alive now rather than then. I am thankful for the sacrifices made by all of that era, especially the women, because they made the world a better place today. Hopefully we can lay groundwork like that for our future generations.

AG, you flatter me. I am so glad that some of the things I wrote here actually helped someone else in some small way. I'll keep sharing as I keep learning, and maybe my lessons I have learned the hard way can help someone avoid the agonies I've suffered.

The ideas about the Boston trip are excellent! Thank you both! If we both can have a bit of what we want, then we're both happy. If that means some time apart, that's perfectly fine. Even in healthy marriages, there's no reason to spend every waking moment together, even on vacation. If you feel compelled to spend each moment together, there is an underlying insecurity.

And with this, a good night.

1aokgal
3rd April 2009, 06:38 AM
Dakereb...


Your post reminds me of how stay-at-home I have become the last few years. Each year I made a 5 days painters seminar in Phila. or Washington but that was the extent of my travel desires. This year the convention will be in Washington, my favorite city to visit but I don't plan to attend this one. I just don't see spending that much money for the time when I have so little time to really paint.


I think to follow your lead and go up overnight next month when the weather should be warmer. The flowers here and the city seems all in bloom. I love to go to the galleries and find a nice place for lunch and just watch the people.

Now I put my big puppy in doggie daycare two days a week. I can arrange to board him there overnight. I live less than 4 hours from Washington, DC..I used to go up just for a fast day of sightseeing and then in the evening go into Georgetown for dinner and see the quaint shops. By midnight I can be home. I miss to have a good friend like I had some years ago who was adventurous and free to go on short notice.

Enjoy your Boston trip. The city here is all Cherry Blossoms, Dogwood so far. Our great Azaleas will be brilliant in two weeks. The best show of color is to drive around the city and look at the beautiful yards all in bloom. You can see why we buy these bushes for landscape color. The Azaleas are pretty and green all year. Then only bloom in glorious fuschia pink, white or light pink just 3 weeks of the year. Maybe we all spark up with the coming of summer and getting out with activities.

Dakereb
6th April 2009, 02:52 AM
I watched the movie "Fireproof." Pretty insightful. Some of the scenarios were a bit over emphasized, but the gist of it is accurate. The guy in the marriage was a real obvious jerk. In real life, being a real jerk is much more subtle. Just as damaging, but it's done in subtle ways you may not be aware of. Like salty air rusting iron, you aren't aware of the corrosiveness in the air, but it's eating away at your marriage a little every day none the less.

While the situations and reactions depicted may not fully match your own, the dynamics of human action and reaction should ring true. They did for me. My wife never flirted with another man, but she was hurt by my selfish behavior early in the marriage. They did not delve into the background of the woman, or present a case wherein the woman does not react normally to the mans overtures for reconciliation. But it reveals enough of the nature of human interaction to at least help someone home in on the basic problems in their relationship.

Not every marriage can be saved using the techniques shown. I doubt mine can. But I can still work to improve myself, just as the man in the movie did. Why would I not?

UKmale58
8th April 2009, 06:18 PM
I havn't read all the posts of this thread. One thing is for certain though. This situation seems to be very common.
I am 58, Male ( from the UK ) and I live in a fairly sexless marriage. I say that because we have had sex occasionally,but it is not an uplifting experience. We have been married 34 years ,and were dating 4 years before that. My wife ( M ) was my first real love. Anyway ,I realised things were a little amiss when we didnt have sex on our Honeymoon. I didnt want to push things. We did used to have sex ( usually once a month) but it seemed a duty for her.
The years went by and M became my best friend. We had 3 children,all grown up now. About 24 years ago,after the birth of our youngest ,sex just about disappeared from the horizon. In the last 23 years I think we've had sex 4 times .
The point I want to make is that YES ,I get very depressed about it. I think about sex more or less daily. I know M rarely thinks about Sex ,so to her it is a lot easier to get on with life. The kids joke about me being a little grumpy at times. The person who is not suffering is always in the driving seat. They feel no pain,so for them there is no drive for change.
The problem for partners who have been together for so long is that ,if you love each other( which we do ) you suffer in silence. It can be a very silent pain and anguish.
It is interesting to know others are in the same boat,whilst I would not wish this on anybody.
I do fear that I am going to be a sad old Git ,full of regrets,thinking I have wasted my one shot at time on earth . ...Love Hurts !

rppearso
8th April 2009, 11:09 PM
I feel sorry you have married a black widow, when you get to heavan hopefully God will reward you for putting up with such a lame existance on earth. Thats why I tell people dont play this game with your spouse becasue you dont get the time back. Pray for wisdom because so few others have it, they would have you live your whole life unhappy before you divorce because they are likely themselves unhappy.

I havn't read all the posts of this thread. One thing is for certain though. This situation seems to be very common.
I am 58, Male ( from the UK ) and I live in a fairly sexless marriage. I say that because we have had sex occasionally,but it is not an uplifting experience. We have been married 34 years ,and were dating 4 years before that. My wife ( M ) was my first real love. Anyway ,I realised things were a little amiss when we didnt have sex on our Honeymoon. I didnt want to push things. We did used to have sex ( usually once a month) but it seemed a duty for her.
The years went by and M became my best friend. We had 3 children,all grown up now. About 24 years ago,after the birth of our youngest ,sex just about disappeared from the horizon. In the last 23 years I think we've had sex 4 times .
The point I want to make is that YES ,I get very depressed about it. I think about sex more or less daily. I know M rarely thinks about Sex ,so to her it is a lot easier to get on with life. The kids joke about me being a little grumpy at times. The person who is not suffering is always in the driving seat. They feel no pain,so for them there is no drive for change.
The problem for partners who have been together for so long is that ,if you love each other( which we do ) you suffer in silence. It can be a very silent pain and anguish.
It is interesting to know others are in the same boat,whilst I would not wish this on anybody.
I do fear that I am going to be a sad old Git ,full of regrets,thinking I have wasted my one shot at time on earth . ...Love Hurts !

Dakereb
9th April 2009, 03:27 AM
UKmale, I hear you, brother. You have my sympathy and prayers.

We men are visual, and we are bombarded with sexual images all day long. When the wife denies us our only socially (and morally) acceptable avenue for sexual fulfillment, well, a cascade of problems results.

Ageing Grace
12th April 2009, 02:33 AM
Hello, Mr Pelican.

Thanks for posting here. I don't know why you did? You seem pretty set in your ways - maybe you'd rather not be set in those ways. Or, maybe, you were on a downer when you posted, and we won't hear from you again ...

...
You told a very short story, in which you left your wife because she felt bad after her mastectomy.
You followed that straight up with an even shorter story. This was that your first wife - of your three to date - hit you really badly with rejection, infidelity and humiliation.

It doesn't take a genius to see that you've been punishing your subsequent wives (and yourself) for failing to live up to the hopes you had when you first married. I'm sure you've spotted this yourself, although you could easily be forgiven for choosing not to follow such thoughts through! Who would want to think about that?

But you are thinking about it, even if just a little at a time. You posted, anonymously, to strangers about your story. After you hit Send, you must have seen your story in all its raw & tragic clarity, if only for a second.

Hear this, if you can: People do bad things. Bad things can happen *to* you! Those bad things aren't necessarily your fault. Some people are just nasty; sometimes it's the weather or politicians who cause our problems. Bad things can just happen.

Your first wife was a bad thing, and she happened to you. You weren't to know she'd do that - how could you?

It's not in our remit to figure her out: she's in your past, living her own life wherever she is. Maybe she's bad even now; maybe not. That's not the problem, because she didn't post here. You did.

I suspect you've been 'punishing' your second and third wives, for not being who you hoped your first wife would be. I think you suspect that, too. Your potentially-fourth wife, however young she is, will not be the person your first wife wasn't, either. She's herself: just like the woman who loved you, even while her life was in the balance, is herself.

People do bad things; bad things happen. It's very sad, but it's a truth.
You cannot un-do the bad your first wife did. You can, on the other hand, grieve some for the hurt that was done to you - and some for the hurt you've done to others as a result of your own pain. Then, if you choose, you can look around at what you have, and what reparations you can make for any damage you may have passed on.

What's your take on the above?

AG

Dakereb
15th April 2009, 03:35 AM
Pelican, there is not enough information in your posts for me to really offer much help.

How long after you married your current wife did she develop breast cancer? How long before she developed breast cancer did the sex end? Did it end because of the cancer? Somehow your first marriage failed, but there are no details about it. It is easiest to blame the spouse completely, but rarely is it all the fault of just one of the partners. Almost always both have done things wrong. Often something seeming small grows into a marriage ending problem. Perhaps there is something you've done or something about your perceived attitude toward your wives that planted the seed of problems, and because of a lack of skill in identifying the root cause, the bad feelings just grew. She did not know exactly what was wrong well enough to tell you, and you did not understand the reaction she was having. Or vice-versa.

Someone who has dealt with a serious cancer has faced death in a way that no one who has not cannot understand. It must certainly be a mind-altering event. It changes people. Before you go off with the younger woman, find out as much as you can about how this has changed your wife, how she feels about it.

In any event, you will greatly benefit from discussing your problems with relationships with a counselor. Even if things fall apart, it is an outstanding opportunity to learn something about yourself. You need to know yourself better. Such a history of failed relationships tells me you don't know what you really want.

sandra09
16th April 2009, 08:11 PM
I don't understand why the original poster didn't came back to reply on the 1891 replies on this thread she started. I thought she's looking for help and want to hear others' stories.. but came out like it became other posters' thread.
I'm sorry, just an observation..
Anyway, I'd like to share my story too..

I'm a newly wed, been 7 months now, but I still consider us newly weds. :P
And since our honey moon, we've only had sex like 3-4 times a month.. and yes, that's once a week. I understand that cause we're both working.. but it seems like, he's too busy to give his time to me.
Then I realized we have to talk about it. That it will soon be become our problem, cause we're newly weds but we're not spending much time together. So I decided we have to talk about it.. and so we did. And it looks like we had a gen. meeting about our relationship.. lol. And it went well.. he just got too busy at work trying to regain the money he spent on our wedding.. lol. I thought our intimacy is fading on the 7th month of our marriage.. silly me. :D

And now it became 2-3 times a week.. hey, that's a big achievement! But, there's a but.. I mostly do the first move.. oh man, I forgot that's what I liked about him.. and that's why he became my boyfriend in the first place. :D
His modesty and simpleness. :)

1aokgal
16th April 2009, 08:51 PM
Sandra09.....

Great news on your home front that things have improved. Of course, I am really puzzled why you felt you have a problem that should be posted in "sexless marriages." A marriage that has sex four or more times a month could NEVER be termed a sexless marriage.

I do understand you are young and not married long. Perhaps you don't understand that those who post in this area don't have trivial issues but years and years of sexless unions. This means many are seriously depressed and could be self destructive or considering a divorce. Most are in a lot of pain about these issues.

Your letter touches off a feeling that you don't get it or understand what this is all about. In fact, the post almost comes across as "chirpy" and reads more like a comic strip to someone who might post here.

Might I suggest you do a little research on what is really the definition of a marriage devoid of sex.

leyla
17th April 2009, 12:30 AM
my first post here , im 50 but look less than 40 (been told ) same with hubby who still does not have white hairs yet . he is the funniest guy ever , gorgeous looking , i love him very much . he does too , we have been married 25 years . we have not been intimate for the last 7 or 8 years now . in the beginning i cried and emailed him as i could not talk about it . i wrote little notes , telling i felt rejected but he told me i was imagining things , that he still loved me .
but once in bed , he turns the other way and gives me his back , and starts snoring while i stay in bed for an hour or two thinking about what has gone wrong . he would never ever seek councelling . and i dont think i would be comfortable with that either . i dont know why he has gone off sex but he had a low sex drive to start with but it has become ridiculous . I bought a few silk nighties when we went on holidays , but he never noticed them . i m always nicely dressed , always has discreet make up , i love looking after my skin , nails , hair , i love perfumes , i love nice clothes , this is my nature .
im a good housewife , i do all the chores , including helping kids with homework , driving them around , do my gardening , shopping . hubby does not lift a finger apart from his job outside .
i never neglect myself , whatever is the situation . i always make sure i look my best , it is part of my nature , i can not neglect myself .

I would never ever consider straiying , nor having an affair , it is not me . I love my husband too much , he is the only man in my life . he is also always at home after work hours . sometimes he works from home , and relaxes in front of the tv when he has finished his work . he is never late at work , always eat at home .

I dont know what to do . i know i wont leave him , it is out of the question . i guess i have accepted my sexless marriage .

1aokgal
17th April 2009, 12:50 AM
Dear Leyla...

You sound like a real nice woman. It is likely you appear to be a handsome couple to an outsider who sees you both together. He probably opens doors for you and holds your hand in the car or at the movies. There is affection, kidding and a good relationship but no sex. Your story is so familiar here and mirrors my own story except I can double the years.

I feel very sad for you. A lot of your letter you describe what an attractive, reasonable and intelligent person you are who is a good partner and a caring one who loves her husband. You told us about your appearance and home. Do you realize how hard you try to explain here how you like dressing, perfume and "girly" stuff? That is because you have internalized this so much as "maybe it is your fault." Perhaps you feel this is based on your apppearance or something in you might not be up to what you should be?


Leyla, this problem has nothing to do with you. It is not about how you look or that something in you is missing. It is about the diverting of his sexual energy to something else. It could be PC porn, masturbation or other self interest to the point he has nothing left to give to you.

If you had finally "accepted" this sad state of affairs you would not post here. That is you, crying out for help and understanding. There are very few you can (or would want) to tell about this. There is a red cape of shame to the woman who believes she is not enough or good enough to hold her man in the bedroom.

Likely, you won't find answers here. Most of us don't have an answer. We do share and get some ideas. Maybe you get him to some counselling and it may..or may not..help what is going on in your home. Don't accept this as it stands because it is a sad thing to live half a life. It is wrong for your partner to steal the joy out of the marriage..when you love him so.

Most of us confront and have hissyfits from time to time, out of anger and frustration..and that seldom helps anything. The problem is deep seated and complex. Maybe this has been in your man for many years. They do what they need to bond with a woman..then nothing. Likely, the man is a workaholic or works solitary on his job. It seems less a sex problem and more of a personality defect to be unable to be close to another.

Welcome. I hope you don't give up wanting more for yourself. Time turns all that love into bitterness and dislike. It hurts the one who feels cheated. Sometimes I think THEY feel nothing.
Sorry you have this problem.

sandra09
17th April 2009, 09:42 PM
Sandra09.....

Your letter touches off a feeling that you don't get it or understand what this is all about. In fact, the post almost comes across as "chirpy" and reads more like a comic strip to someone who might post here.

Might I suggest you do a little research on what is really the definition of a marriage devoid of sex.


I'm sorry, cause I thought as a newly wed.. that's a problem.. but now you're making me realize that it's not. I drop by this thread cause I also liked to share mine.. and got some observations. And like what others suggested.. I also suggested the original poster to talk to her husband about their problem.. and that mine went fine.

I'm sorry again.. I don't mean anything bad. And I'll do some research and make sure that I only post to threads and topics that I truly understand.
Thanks! :)

1aokgal
18th April 2009, 12:38 AM
Sandra09...


You are young and enthusiastic about your relationship. That will change as the tide through the years. If all runs normal..someday you may be thrilled to share times perhaps a few times together a week or so as you both work and go about life. A sexless marriage means there has been no intimacy for many years. It happens to women and men with mates who refuse to have sex in the marriage.

One poster shared the fact it had been 20 years without any intimacy in her marriage. That is extemely abnormal, one would think. Still, there are many who love a partner who has denied affection and sex over 10 years since they were together. The dynamics shared by posters with these stories are deep shame (they feel somehow responsible), terrible depression or disorders that come with loneliness and unhappiness alcoholism, eating disorders or infidelity to find elsewhere what a mate has withdrawn from them..physical affection and sexuality.

Most love the partner until empty years turn that into bitterness and anger which then is often introjected (turned against oneself.) Most can never tell another because of the personal shame they feel or because they don't want to be judged as the one who is responsible. A woman 20 lbs. heavier, 20 years into a marriage should not feel her husband is disgusted to touch her. Still, that is how they feel and maybe it is also true the man wants his wife to be young again and model thin because they feel they have a right to expect that.

Mostly, it is a sad place to post except the humor of many who try to help another cope with the fact they sleep with a man who turns his back for years. Hope you never have such problems in your life. Your newlywed calendar has no relationship to a marriage where sex does not exist. These problems mean there needs to be years of psychological counselling to deal with the problem or to alter the behavior. Most therapist give this problem a less than 20% chance
to change. This condition is called "sexual anorexia" which is an intricate psychological disorder.

Dakereb
27th April 2009, 02:25 AM
Oh yes, once a week would be wonderful! I'd settle for once a MONTH. I guess it's all a matter of perspective!

"Sexual anorexia". That's the second time I've heard that in the last few weeks. When I was at my doctor discussing some "problems" I am experiencing, he asked how often I have sex. That led to a jovial discussion! He suggested my wife has sexual anorexia. Seems likely.

Counseling is still going pretty good. I feel myself lifting out of my funk. I still get no sex, but dealing with it in a positive way is getting a little easier. When I get to a good point, I can lay out some boundaries with my wife and see where that leads. Taking positive steps feels very good.

Take care, everyone.

1aokgal
28th April 2009, 06:21 AM
Dear Dakereb...

Even a couple of times a year would be a celebration as birthday, Xmas, Valentines Day. Actually, he still celebrates those days..but alone.
I so wonder what makes him tick. He is such a nice man..who treats me well except I don't have affection (other than a sisterly kiss or hug), sex or even a discussion about those subjects as he clams up, leaves the room or changes the subject.

I always wonder what he must think of himself. How does a person sit through movies, art, discussions that have people making love or having sex and not even have a shift in facial expression? I ended up in the hospital last week. Drove myself to a hospital ER when I was out at a store. I had great plans to attend a Victorian tea in a few hours so when I had chest distress while I shopped, I wanted to hope it would "go away." I did decide to go to the ER because I thought if it got worse I'd be in real trouble.

They admitted me with my pulse of 40 and other problems. The 106 year old woman on the ward was in better shape than I was. Seems I had a drug interaction that depressed my system and heart. Here I never smoked, nor drink and my drugs are legal. Sure makes your life pass in front of your eyes.

My husband had just arrived the day before to Philadelphia and that is 4 hours away instead of Florida where he has been the last months. He rented a car and hit the road within an hour of being notified and got here to be at the hospital. He is a good man and loves me "as he seems capable to do." He stayed a few days and left to go back yesterday. He won't be here on Wednesday, which is my birthday. My daughter who lives nearby, is on a work trip this week.

It seems only my pal.... the big dog, Canto, and cats will be here to celebrate. I would not like to repeat this week and that hospital experience.

Yes, my friend who has been kind to me sent me a lovely email when he heard I had been ill. No complications but he does keep contact.

Dakereb, good idea about the counselling. I'd love to talk to someone about this but I guess I need to hear feedback and not someone who just listens to the story. Perhaps, if I didn't have health problems ( and analyze everything) I would have reached out to the man likes me so well.

The term sexual anorexia is available if you reach it on google. Take care.

MarkTwain
28th April 2009, 06:35 PM
Hi all. Sorry I have not posted in a while. I have been trying to speed-read the posts and play catch up. I have been busy with my new website, the old one is closed.

Dakereb-
I am shocked by the lengths you are going to. I wonder how much of it is due to being a Catholic?

1aokgal
29th April 2009, 03:38 AM
Hi All...

Things are going better for me today. Despite my birthday tomorrow and the fact I will be alone to program a lunch or movie and take dog to the dog park..I am upbeat. I know my husband would be here if he could be. He took some days off to help me when I was in the hospital but he has to work in city about 4 hours away. That is an improvement from the last 6 months when he was in a city 10 hours away.

It was pricey to fly home two weekends a month. That is a terrifically abnormal existence. I would press him to go to some counseling sessions but he just isn't here available. Not by design, but by work assignment. He goes where that ship goes. I have been alone some years with this situation but when he is here except for some chores he might have time to do.....he is a tourist on my street.

No change is possible with such absurd calendar. Today I bought the birthday gift for myself I saw last week. It is a beautiful estate watch with high grade diamonds all around the face and on the beginnings of the band. The appraisal was very high and though pricey, was an investment in a fine piece of jewelry. Certainly not the cheap little watches I get at Walmart, but not one you wear for banging around either. I didn't look for it, it found me when I took a pearls with broken clasp to be repaired to quaint little jewelry shop I heard about.

This evening I took the dog for a brisk walk and like anyone with another BD to ponder, I vow to make the walks longer and brisker.

I always believe when things are stat that changes should be made. The only thing I can change is to make my life better. Summer has hit with a bang here in the south Eastern USA coastline city. It is HOT. So it seems that I can enjoy activities again as biking, hiking, and taking the dog for drives and to the dog park. The days I have to work here longer I take the dog in the morning to doggie daycare so he has a day to recreate. Then I can work uninterrupted.

Seems here in the states these dog care places are poppping up everywhere as we spend so much on pets. The population gets older and kids are grown, so we have animals.

Welcome back Mark..You did not miss much here. The scene seems about the same. The sexless marriage is an incurable disease and only we make allowances how we can to put quality of life in other areas. I think most here stay with the mate if all else has some merit. Sometime people stay for years in hopes it will change and then ... they realize, it never will.

I am sure in my home ..it is a lost cause where he is concerned. It is what it is. I still have to live with conflicting emotions of anger and rage at times. I am always amazed how well he can blow me off in any mention of the "no sex" or "sex alone" subject. Meanwhile, I still have a talking acquaintance with a lovely man I met months ago. No, read nothing into that as we have shared lunch a few times but we email and talk a few times a week. I need no complications.
Goodnight.

jkk
30th April 2009, 03:58 PM
Happy birthday 1aokgal!

1aokgal
30th April 2009, 09:30 PM
Dear JKK...

Thanks for your well wishes on BD. I had a lovely thing happen yesterday.

I recieved a large bunch vase of BEAUTIFUL mixed flowers delivered by florist. My husband is in another state. He never has done anything lke that..call florist and put it on CC but I thought what a nice thing. I was not from my husband.

The flowers were sent by a woman in upper US I have never met. We have been email pals the last 3 years and both of us had difficult childhoods and marriages. I sold her something on ebay and we began to communicate. A lot of encouragement and shared personal observations. Things we told about our feelings. I know she is not flush for money so it is a gesture of pure loving kindness and love on her part.

I am totally touched. I had invited her if she can do it to consider sometime using me here as a vacation spot for a time as I live in a beach resort area. Anyway...No family member thought to do such a thing or send a card. My daughter will when she gets back from a work trip elsewhere.

Isn't that nice?

1aokgal
1st May 2009, 05:59 AM
Hi Bear:D

Thanks for your good wishes.

Does this mean you are lurking or following along? Hope things are better for you.

1aokgal
2nd May 2009, 01:57 AM
Dearest Bear...

After all the crap and a heated argument and confrontation and it was terrible sex...gee...that is a nightmare. Well...let us face it..after deprivation so long the place is not a welcoming as when things are on a regular basis.

Give this some thought. Don't carry all that unforgiveness into the bed with you and can you both go somewhere ELSE than in the bed..like in a motel for a night? Get away from the old and try to recapture the two of you not fumbling around trying to do it because he feels you "blackmailed" him with anger and he is trying under duress.

Sex requires comfortable setting, lack of stress and time to get the feelings back. If you were a relationship counselor you would say what I am telling you here. Try and try again. It is worth it to be playful and to give the guy a chance to have a woody JUST for you and not under a shotgun of anger. If you don't do this then it will never happen. He is meeting you halfway. Love is a CHOICE...make the choice to love. Get out handcuffs, get a nightie..whatever...find your way back. Do it for yourself..you deserve it. When that gets fixed better than you work on the anger issues. OKay?

Bear~
2nd May 2009, 02:46 AM
You got that wrong Girl...he's the one with the unforgivness...now I don't care anymore he's willing to have sex to control me!

Anyway...I've tried every outfit in every place on the north Shore and some Islands too...all he did was fall asleep...pretty soon he'll go back to that...

(((HUG))) You know the way it goes...we dream and then wake up to reality***

1aokgal
2nd May 2009, 06:57 AM
Bear...


I am 100% understanding of the frustration and anger of a rejected spouse. One day the switch turns to OFF and then it no longer matters. I do feel he is doing some of what you wanted him to do and that is to realize what has been missing and try to change it. The problem is the anger makes you want to pay him back for all of that.

I don't think my husband will ever reach the stage your husband has reached to even care that it changes. It suits him fine. I am not even sure he has the concept that sex belongs in the marriage. I have made the concession to do without and keep the marriage going in whatever fashion and he is comfortable with that.

I wish he might reach the same stage as yours where talking is even possible. That "sexual anorxia" fits him exactly. Please try to take care of yourself. Watch out for the anger. It will make you ill and risk your life. Hope you have some good friends to get out away from the stress sometimes. I hope I did not hurt you with my suggestions. I wish you happpiness. Yes, reality is very hard.

Bear~
2nd May 2009, 07:30 AM
Oh Gal~

You did not hurt Me...just wanted to make it clear he was the one that brought up the past he had forgotten/forgiven. I think maybe my outburst scared him into realizing I have had enough...I really don't care anymore.

The anger was over for me until the next day he tried to start again and I told him that's enough,if you don't like me or anything else here you're free to go~

Now he's on me like a dog on a bone*

Ya know that saying "sex starts way before you get into bed"? Well,he sits watching TV with a blackberry,cell phone, and a laptop...he is like a 14 year old child...then I'm suppose to be thrilled when we get in bed and he says "wanna fool around"?

I tried...thought some long ago feelings would come back,but he's had sex alone for so long it still feels like he's alone when he's with me... I love him as a person...not in Love anymore~ It's gotten old~

If we both wouldn't suffer money wise I'd run for the hills...last time I asked him to leave he spent weeks going from one place to another cuz he couldn't get his own place...he's not a bad person...so I took him back~

Just hurts sometimes when you think of what might have been...I used to Love sex and being with a man...making him happy* Sad...you know what I mean...even harder cuz men 15yrs younger are telling me age doesn't matter...hahaha***

I'm working right now...figure I mize well make money :)

Take care...I will too* Just lost 30LBS and I feel great...maybe I'll start walking my big dog*

MarkTwain
2nd May 2009, 06:55 PM
Bear~

May I caution you to slow down a bit? I wrote an article aboutr your situation some time agao, although I must admit, I have never come across anything that takes the biscuit as much as your husband. Here is a link to the article: http://www.marriagesatsang.com/articles/sync.html

Basically, what I am saying is that, now that you have finally got a little bit of what you originally wanted, it seems like "too little too late" - ON STERIODS! But... if you can just take a deep breath for a moment... Think about it. For whatever reason, something inside him has gone click. Things a thawing. If you keep a level head, you may be able to turn the lousy sex you have now into somthing better. Don't for get that your resentment is huge, and that will be making the sex seem worse than it is - even if he were an Adonis.

I hope the above made some sense. Feel free to cross question me :)

Bear~
2nd May 2009, 09:28 PM
Mark,

Thank you for thinking you could help :)

We have been together 21 years...the sex was always lacking...I thought it would improve as we got to know each other...there is no passion...no imagination*

After being together for 5 or 6 years he told me I was his first relationship...other than porn, strip clubs, and prostitutes~ That is where the detached feeling comes during sex...no kissing...no holding...just I'll touch you then you touch me~

Anyway, I've tried many different things,places...he's so into MB that he actually forgets that I go so long without sex LOL! He even read a book about "Love languages" told me mine was attention...conversation...then proceeds to buy me whatever I want...or he thinks I want...flowers,candy, cars~

Love my car thou* No conversation...unless it's about his work...then he throws back a few beers...zones to Sci-Fi while he surfs the web on his laptop...and checks his Blackberry for emails.

I used to sit and try to talk or just be with him...then lite dawned and I thought he has everything he needs and cares less if I do...so I'm going to get up and DO LIFE***

Then he follows me....then he offers sex cuz I go out now and he's afraid I'll find it or it will find me as men interact with me in front of him when we're out~ That makes me angry...it's control*

So the sex he offers is not what I've been asking for...waiting for...it's what he's willing to give to hold me when things get uncomfortable...to keep me sitting on the couch waiting for conversation.

I don't know if any of this makes sense....but I'm in the middle of working 32 hours on very little sleep...I'm a Nurse and that makes it hard too cuz I have to be there for patients and family...during sickness and death...I give till I'm empty and have no where to go to fill up...been on the edge a few times cuz it gets so painful~

So I'm taking back my Life and my Heart and keeping it safe...

1aokgal
3rd May 2009, 07:18 AM
Bear...

I understand and share your sadness st the loss of expectations in our lives. It is very alone inside ourselves. These men meet their own needs and move in their world which has no emotions. Women are about emotion.

He is here for 2 days. That is a hoot that I see him 4 days a month. Here I am talking to you because I can't talk to him. I think sometimes he gets sad because he realizes I am not there anymore like he remembers me being there. He holds my hand everywhere we go. If we sit in a restaurant and wait for the food he often holds my hand on the table. People must think we are devoted and sensually close. Looks are deceiving.

MarkTwain
3rd May 2009, 04:56 PM
Bear~

I hear you... nevertheless, if you take the fledgling new found attention you are getting, you can grow it into something bigger. Trust me on that. what would really help is if you could get him to stop masturbating. I could give you some creative ideas about that, but you'd have to be game.

The problem with masturbation is that after a man has ***, he is just not interested until the urge builds up again. It can take form hours to days, depending on the man. Basically, you need to think of his ejaculation as letting of steam. And what you want is for the pressure to build up. If it built up enough, he might actually start being nice to you.

I'm afraid some of this is your own fault, because by your acceptance you trained him to be lazy. But by going out and making him realise he might lose you, he decided to put in a little bit more effort. If you put your thinking cap on, you could get even more effort out of him. You could even get him to be glad you did. Some people never realise just what they've got until it's gone.

Bear~
3rd May 2009, 09:43 PM
__________________
MT

You think in 21 years I've not tried to get him to stop? Even counseling twice...the 1st one actually told him she couldn't help him because he refused to stop for a month~ He said it's natural...he's been doing it since 12yrs old which now is 40yrs ;)

I've been a Nurse for 21yrs and trust me I know more about the male functions than you probly do (no offense)

The only thing that's my fault is I never knew enough to give up sooner and run for my Life* Like every other dumb young female I Believed my Love could help him change~

He does know what it's like when you let things walk out because my sister just left her husband in October after 25yrs and he's falling apart and trying to get her back...which will never happen~

I warned him not to take me to "I don't care anymore"...the well is dry...there is nothing he can or will do for any length of time. This is a familiar dance....in 2 or 3 weeks he will be satisfied things are quiet and he will pick up the remote a beer,and put his hand down the front of his pants and Life will be good*

Believe me I'm not looking for a solution...just happy to know what I'm dealing with and that breast implants, tummy tucks, and being sexy do nothing to help because it never had anything to do with Me in the first place...it's who he IS*

Just come here to share the pain with women that understand and Hope that new women can learn from our mistakes before a Lifetime goes by!

Bear~
3rd May 2009, 09:52 PM
OK Gal

I hear you Girl...he ran outside to walk me to my car and kiss me goodbye....cuz the young guy across the street divorced his wife last year and lives alone LMAO***

Of course for the 3 hours we were in the house he didn't even act like I was Home ;)

Bear~
3rd May 2009, 11:00 PM
Divorce with children involved is not an option right now...I will leave him to be who he is...he has that right...I will be working on Me* I've told him he is free to leave or I will...he doesn't want either choice~

If things change;better or worse in the future I will make the choice for him* Right now I have one son going to a University...the last into a Tech school...my first 2 had to join the service and do Irac*

My boys deserve a chance in Life* I will give them that chance...I do not look at my Life as over...but my eyes are open...do I think ALL men are bad...no, I Love men...and maybe some day I'll find my Best Friend...maybe not*

So be it~

1aokgal
4th May 2009, 10:42 PM
Dear Bear...

I think frustration and anger can rob us of hope. Sure can make us cynical that anything is possible. I still think you should work with the material at hand and there are few greener fields out there. It is doubtful you step out from your marriage and Mr. Wonderful marches in as in the movies so the best plan might be to revamp your own expectations and be glad he is showing a sexual pulse (weak though it might be) and remember that the best way to revive a sick sexual energy is just to go at it with gusto. (SO say the doctors.)

When the pattern of often is praticed the body and mind become more accepting and the very closeness you can experience may reawaken the jpy you once felt in him. If you don't lower the walls of anger it won't happen. He is finally doing a LITTLE of what you wanted him to do for so long. Can't you in love see him again as your young lover? Take out the photos and look back at the journey and see if you can recapture a little of who you are. Maybe it is tiny little start?


Maybe my husband is trying a little too in his close clasp of me and his long look in my eyes several times as he tells me he loves me with all his heart. Maybe that was my clue to try to get it to a naughty state and I just hugged back and moved away. I have been so trained to be Assexual these years. Wonder what would have happened if I had just gone for it? I think I missed a chance to confront or get him to refuse...again. Maybe it is worth to try for the refusal again and then I can give him such a hissyfit fight as he hasn't seen in years. At least I would prove I am not dead and still interested.

Bear~
5th May 2009, 01:49 PM
Ok Gal,





I agree...the years and pain have made me cynical for sure~ I'm looking more for my own greener fields...not a Mr. Wonderful to share them with LOL! I may try to revamp...right now I'm angry because the thing that started this whole new episode was the cost of college~

My son is a football player and was courted by 5 different places...he picked the University...they are the most expensive,but they'll pay half his tuition! The whole thing threw hubby cuz I handle all the bills&such...then after all of the offers came in he realized that the most expensive actually would cost less because of the offer.

Well, before getting all the offers he panicked talked to everyone he knew about it...including one of my older sons that thinks son #3 is spoiled anyway. This all turned into a huge thing behind my back and blew in my face after working all weekend 32 hours...on 8 hours sleep! I felt ambushed ...

He is the one that went to all the games, showed off my son's pictures, had friends come to games...brought him to football camp...then wants him to pick the cheapest school~

Anyway, I have trust issues...and I was going along thinking we were working on our relationship...then being hit with things he was really thinking brought back a lot of old painful feelings...that's why I told him he could go...this is a HUGE problem with us...how can I feel like a couple if he talks about our personal business with everyone he knows? He said I go to my sisters...this is true, but they know my son. He talks to people at work...and my older sons...they don't have the right to know or give advise..they are my sons...not his friends~

It actually created such a bad feeling that my older sons will not come here when he's Home...I cried for 2 days and tried still to not hurt his feelings because he doesn't get it...then I had enough and told him he could leave...

I don't have to take pictures out...they're looking at me from the corner of my room...I'm trying not to throw them out...

The Asexual thing is so true too...thought I could get thru that, but the anger is going to take a while...I don't see my grandson now because that's the son he went to, my son feels used because he tried to get information from him about the time we were separated...did I call or see other men? The relationship between them is over now my son said he will never talk to him again...it kills me*

So that is why I feel so controlled...cuz now he wants to do everything to keep me* I know the pattern thou...and as soon as he feels comfortable he will slip back....can't say he'll ever feel safe to lay back around me again thou...I pretty much say what I think now...not nasty, but no more hiding feelings...I want everything right there to deal with~

The whole thing has wiped me out...really left me on the edge to be hit at such a time when lack of sleep and losing a dying patient I Love Dearly had sapped all of my strength...had me psychotic...and he picked that time to hit me and take me down...my son too, he works nights and he did the same calling him while he was trying to sleep...drilling him for info~

My son said he's like a little high school girl and I'm not dealing with him anymore...because hubby falls apart under pressure...then I have to fix every thing~ It's like I'm the husband...or like my youngest once said at 7yrs old "you're not the boss of me you're mommy's biggest boy"*

Raymond
5th May 2009, 06:05 PM
Sorry to intrude Bear but has he given up the porn and solo MB? It is understandable that sex will never get off the ground while this is happening. One cannot expect it to happen in the proper way if this is going on. Relationship in it is essential as you have pointed out. Personally I would not expect you to get involved sexually if this is still happening. I wouldn't even encourage you in it if this has not been put right.

Raymond

Bear~
5th May 2009, 06:44 PM
~ Hello Raymond ~

No, he hasn't given up porn ... the first time my son walked in on him he was on the computer...my son was 10.

Then just a few months ago my son, now 19...came Home from a friends house instead of staying overnight and caught hubby in the living room watching HBO real sex...and MB.

He told me, but I never said anything...I guess hubby got up and ran in front of the TV when the door opened...then followed my son out to the kitchen to see if he had caught on to what he saw~ Because nothing was said he thought he got by.

I brought it up during the fight...as hubby is part of his church's top circle....always talking about what others have done that's not accepted by Christian belief...and I would say "things that are wrong done in private are included just because others don't know or see it's still wrong"~

So I finally told him I held things in to not hurt his feelings...and told him I knew...he was embarrassed, but didn't say anything~ I'm afraid that 40 years of MB and looking at women as things to use instead of someone to be with and share have left him clueless to a real relationship.

He can pull off the courtship...and even that I think is because he's stimulated by the fear of losing or being alone* He can't pull off the intimate connection...doesn't like to kiss or hug, has a hard time listening if you talk too long...doesn't like to be around people for too long either...at Family parties goes off by himself to watch TV~

I'm a people person...Love to listen and help...share a hug when needed...laugh&talk*

That is why I've tried to be understanding of his personality...now that he's older he's more set in his ways...thinks they're the right ways and doesn't give me the same understanding~

I've done alot more research on religion than he has...he is a Nazarene and thinks only his way is right~

I have a Chinese grandson, a Japanese Best Friend, my son's girl is Columbian, I'm close to many Africans that I work with...I don't Believe in any one thing that excludes others...I have to be everyone's Nurse on their death bed!

So as we get older...it gets harder to find a common ground with him...he puts me in the position of being in charge and responsible for everything so if it goes wrong it's my fault...then tells me that he is the head of the house and it's because GOD says so*

Well...that doesn't work for me...and it never will* so we have many issues to deal with.

Raymond
6th May 2009, 08:40 AM
This is worse than I thought Bear. This Nazarene thing sounds like a cult to me although I have never heard of it. Your husband is obviously addicted to porn which I class as mental adultery. Whoever looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart according to Jesus. I believe is is also highly deceived in his thinking. Whether this comes from this Nazarene thing I don't know but it sounds to me like he lives in a mental prison.

The bible is not a legalistic book about you are this and I am this. The main thing I get from it on marriage is to love and cherish (highly value) my wife. If I looked at porn I know that it would detrimentally affect our sex life and is therefore not loving. (It is wrong in itself anyway I believe). I know there are things addressed to wives but that is for her to work out not me.

You sound like a sound person to me Bear with a loving attitude to all people which is far more christian than an isolationist position. Your husband needs deliverance from this porn (and this spiritual deception) but unless he wants it with all his heart it is not going to happen.

Personally I would never push you to have sex with him while this is going on but that is just my opinion. Porn always damages the marital sexual relationship I believe.

Raymond

Bear~
6th May 2009, 01:45 PM
Raymond; thank you for your understanding...you are a treasure to your Wife*



He will never stop MB and it's not always porn...he actually told me once he watched home shopping...pretty sad~

He is in with the top circle in the church...he actually signs the minister's paycheck...and sings all of the worship songs* He makes me feel that he thinks he's better than me because he goes to church...

talks about his boss being bad cuz he's married and goes to lunch with a married woman, and the guys go to strip clubs after work...told the man he would never do that cuz it doesn't honor his wife~

I almost choked on the honor my wife* that's why I told him what's done in private counts too*

It seems to me he picks what he wants to Believe and ignores the mental adultery thing~ I've stayed with him because he came from wonderful people and I thought one day he would mature and that was a mistake~

His parents used to feed all of the poor people in the neighborhood...they ran a catering business and gave out the extra food...they were Beautiful people always involved in the community~

Anyway, now he thinks having sex is the way to fix our relationship* He just left for work and asked if we were going to "fool around" tonight...before this last fight he'd go 3 or 6 months and never think of sex with me unless I was going out with my sisters~

He hurt me and I told him I needed time to get over that....but he keeps pushing...so that shows it truly has nothing to do with me or my feelings*

I feel trapped as many do now because of the economy...my house is worth less than my mortgage...my son is counting on me to hold things together so he can go to college. Sometimes it's very heavy...and lonely*

I put myself into work and my Family&Friends to keep going...today I'm going to get my hair done and the girl that does it is a Friend of almost 20 years.

That's another thing he's been doing....he pops up all of a sudden* Last time I had a hair appointment he was there behind me when I paid and said he came to take me to lunch...all the females swooned how romantic that was...I was creeped out cuz I knew he was checking up on me*

When I get on the computer he has to come out and kiss me...I know it's just to see what I'm doing...I mean I was just watching TV with him for an hour...and then when I leave the room he has to follow...it's all just a control thing...that's how I feel~

Well, I'm off to do some things to forget about all this for awhile :) Thank you for listening*

1aokgal
6th May 2009, 07:07 PM
Bear..

He knows in his heart he has been wrong and follows after you to see if he has pushed you too far. Maybe it occurs to him you might get fed up and have something else going for yourself. Like when would you find the time? The checking around is uncomfortable and yes, it is a control issue.

I don't think you can sit down and talk to him without another present and get any substance as he would lie about the MB issues. If you could get some counselling together and each on your own..you for anger/frustration and him for lying and subverting the intimacy in the marriage you might get somewhere to start.

I think you feel it is not worth it at this stage and have just decided to make the best of it and do what you do for years..put your love into the patients. I probably feel that way too that it seems a lot of effort to make a natural thing, natural. I am sad for you to be a woman of quality and so taken for granted and left to your own devices.

It is hard for me to imagine I would ever be in such a position as I have loved him greatly and for the most part, still do. I am sure he feels that way for me but has gone to great lengths to make sure he is a poor husband where it counts. It is not about sex..it is about the stripping away of the trust and to deny another the basic feelings of closeness and affection. I am sure my health has been much damaged by the stress of the frustrated and unhappy years.

One spends years trying to figure THEM out and not concentrate on ones' own needs and feelings. Sad business. Take care of yourself.
You are a very dear person and we all wish you happiness. :-)

Raymond
6th May 2009, 07:57 PM
I can understand you having a break from talking about it Bear. The whole thing is so hypocritical. What sort of church is it he goes to? Actually my wife and I have just prayed that he will be exposed. Porn is bad enough with anyone, but to be in that position in a church and be doing that under cover makes it doubly bad in my opinion.

What is home shopping? Women doing shopping? Surely he is not mb to that? I've never heard of a case so bad to be honest. He has a real lust problem. He is seriously deceived to be honest. I don't know how he got like that coming from such a good family, but something has got in for sure. Give me the address of his church and I will expose him. If it is a genuine church they will know how to deal with it. I could fill a couple of pages in a letter to the minister about it if you let me, not mentioning you of course. It would be doing him a favour if he could find genuine repentance over it. Youd be surprised what God can do when one comes to genuine repentance over something. I wasn't born on the right side of the tracks.

I'll leave it to you if you allowed me to write. I could give you my e mail. Apart from that you maybe could do something with his church although I think it will be better coming from someone else. You need to be protected here. I wouldn't say how I knew. My interest is on a church level as this should never happen in a church. He will be humbled but perhaps that is what is needed here. God can save him from himself.

With regard to the college/university; the less you have the more you get from the Government (If you are in the UK). In the States I would imagine it would be similar.

Raymond

1aokgal
7th May 2009, 12:47 AM
Dear Raymond...

While one can agree there is a real problem with Bears husband, who professes his religion and has personal vices..that is not uncommon. My stepfather (deceased) was a devout Catholic who paid for parochial private school training for his children and was a member of the organization, Knights of Columbus. He also had a real drinking problem.

Many cannot fashion themselves after the beliefs they profess. The forum is a place where one can anonymously talk about personal problems and find emotional support and fine advise. It would be unseemly for anyone here to report as suggested by a letter to the members church family, as a "Big Brother," a person not here to support his side of things. Since we don't know this man personally there should be no idea to make a "report" to his church about unsubstantiated claims about his sexuality or practices. One is innocent until proven guilty.

If this information had something to do with ill treatment of children or a crime than one would have a duty to report
though to do so might open oneself up to a legal defamation of character lawsuit if the charges were proven false. Whether a man has sexual knowledge of himself is hardly anyone elses business.

This is a private matter between Bear and her husband and family. There would be nothing to gain to embarass the man (or yourself) by sending a letter to his church. What one chooses to do under the covers or behind closed doors is personal...and private. We hope that Bear is not made to feel uncomfortable because she shared private information which is safe and secure with us here and remains here.

We hope that the turmoil and sadness experienced by Bear might sharply propel this man to realize he has made poor choices which damage the marriage. Our greatest good for them would be to collectively..and separately, offer prayers to that God who sees al things and can open a heart and make changes.

The Nazarene religion is a Christian denomination and close to the Methodist faith. I researched it but I don't get into that, as I am solely knowledgeable from what I read concerning the church. There are many religions, but one God, so what path one chooses seems to matter little so long as it ends at one spot.

Bear, I think personally there has been a mild breakthrough as his attitude has changed. He IS afraid to lose you so maybe it is daylight breaking through? Anything can happen and all wounds can heal even anger and sadness so I hope there is some attempt by him to apologize for behavior and address the cause.
God bless.

mightygiant
7th May 2009, 02:38 AM
[B]Hello,

Sex is not every thing but to me I believe that there should be intimacy in a relationship or other wise you will feel like bother and sister. I was starting to feel like that in my relationship but she was willing to talk an open up about it. I know there are more relationships like this so I would like to recommend this book that helped changed many lives.

Raymond
7th May 2009, 09:07 AM
1Okgal I look at this from a christian point of view. I do believe what Bear says as it happens. Why would she lie? Mentioning it to the headquarters of this denomination could have a beneficial effect even on Bear's husband. This kind of thing could stumble many who are under him in the church. It is no light thing. If this is a genuine spiritual church which I believe it is they will want to take good care of the flock. They would want to know for sure if something like this is going on not only for the health of their church members but for the health of Bears husband. He seems to be in leadership here which makes it imperative that those under him are protected. There are ways of doing these things in love in churches. It would be nothing like a court case as you suggest. A lot of good can come from it. It is true they will not receive an accusation from a stranger but I think it could lead somewhere beneficial if couched in the correct way.

The improvements you talk about seem to me about using Bear to make a show of virtue for some reason known only to him.

Bear if you want to talk about it anonymously with me please e mail me on Rayblondie50@yahoo.com

God bless you

Raymond

Bear~
7th May 2009, 12:42 PM
~Ok Gal and Raymond~

Thank you both for your Love&understanding* Reporting him is not needed...the church knows...that's the reason he went there and joined in the first place~ I told him to seek help or we couldn't stay together. He is part of a men's group that met weekly, now monthly to talk about it...

Raymond you are very kind and it is natural for men to want to fix things...I appreciate that* Sending a letter would send him into another tizzy as he would be embarrassed in the only place he feels comfortable and accepted...I would never do that to him*

It's not his fault...he was child #7, and born to older parents...he's had a lonely painful Life and the MB is the only thing that brought him comfort growing up...I understand that now...just wish I knew before I hooked up with him for Life*

Sure there's things he wishes he knew about me too...we all have our story...our side*

Thank you both so much for your support* I'll be fine...my hair is Beautiful again...my oldest sons are coming today is my Daughter in-law's Birthday...so she will come with my grandson...and he will hug me and Life will be good~

***Bless You Both***

Raymond
7th May 2009, 12:57 PM
Thank you for your explanation Bear. I was getting the impression that he was doing this under cover while putting on an act of holier than thou in leadership in the church. If he went there for that purpose, to get help that is, then it puts things in a different light. In other words he knows it is wrong and is trying to overcome it. Presumably the pastor knows about this and they are working on it.

There are places one can go for this kind of thing (in the UK) in the form of a residential weekend away. If he ever needed to know I would be happy to give him contact details. They do get results but a lot of co-operation is needed from the counselees as well.

Glad things are looking up a bit for you.

Raymond

1aokgal
7th May 2009, 07:51 PM
Dear Bear and Raymond,

I look at this issue from a Christian viewpoint as well. I say the man is where he can find help and change and not sitting in the local pub bombed out. No one should pursue him in a house of worship with tattletales.

I did not say Bear would tell something that is not true. If a man looks at porn or soft porn in magazines...it is not against the law nor is that a forbidden thing. Personally, I never thought the Home Shopping channel was that sexy! If he wants to abuse his member..... with fantasy or watching TV, it is his business. Nor should we sanction him about it through his church. He is a piss poor husband..we got that idea in common. He needs redemption and to change..we got that in common....how we view things.

Remember old Jimmy Swaggert in his tearful confession as he frequented hookers and stood in a pulpit and told others how to be a Christian. Still..he did a lot of good for many..even his downfall may have done a lot of good for many who had similar vices. Remember those who would throw stones and the admonition concerning how we view others who have sinned.

I think Bear handles her marriage in an admirable way and in love, shows the courage it takes to make a life work that has been difficult. There is something good working in her husband to take him into a church and one day he may have a turnaround in how he acts as a man in his marriage. There were the extremists in the Catholic church who felt torture and branding was the best way to handle human frailties. It is good that there is a man's group in that church and a comfortable place to talk about problems. In the Cathlic Church there is the confessional and a man can get it out and try to get it right. I suspect that his problem are very deep and may have been from childhood.

I also add that if Bears' husband did not love his wife he WOULD be at the corner pub and not home or trying to make amends....as weak as his efforts may seem. When a man brings home his paycheck, works for his family, stays employed and worries something "might dishonor his wife".... he loves her. Else he would be sitting in another womans' kitchen (or bedroom.)

I know my husband is a fine man and I admire him for being the kind, caring and loving person he is to me. He is just not sexual as he was in our early years. I know he bought some pretty raunchy magazines home a few times about 10 years ago. We had war about that. I know that was a faze and he does not do this or use porn sites. How do I know? Let us say I am a good detective.

I do know that I have a deep love and respect for him. I think/believe one day we may find a way to reconnect. I also know my medical problems are such he is afraid to lose me. I do wish that Bear and other women who have these alienated marriages (as mine) don't give up and keep the door open to that chance. Posting on the forum is catharsis for me. It also serves as a sounding board for those of us who might need new input on the efforts.

Dakereb
8th May 2009, 04:18 AM
So many posts since I last checked in!

Wow, Bear, my heart goes out to you! As I read your story, my thoughts revolved around the fact that masturbation is an ADDICTION. I am glad your husband is going to a group at church, but it seems the group may have become dysfunctional. How many men are in the group? Do they follow the "Every Man's Battle" curriculum? There are other programs as well. Groups like that can work, but they have to have a very good leader. Perhaps he can seek out a different group. SAA may help him. SAA is Sex Addicts Anonymous. May be worth looking into.

What seems to have happened to your husband is he has become attached to pornography because he masturbates to orgasm while viewing it. He has formed a strong chemical attachment to the behavior, very much like a drug dependency. And it is just as difficult to conquer as a drug dependency. Often such addictions have some root in obsessive-compulsive disorder as well. What must happen is he MUST break the chemical link. He has to stop masturbating completely, and abstain from sex for 90 days or so. That is needed to break the craving, the brain needing the chemical release that orgasm provides. He has to suffer through withdrawal. So he has to really REALLY want to go through this. There can be no other way. Once he breaks that, he can re-learn to attach himself to you through real sexual intercourse, with the chemical release caused by you, not by pornography. The key is, he must COMMIT to the process.

If you can help him do all this, through love, understanding, and being tough on him when necessary, one day, a year, two years down the road, he will love you like you've never known he could. But he has to WANT to change. Believe it or not, drugs designed to address OCD also work to help reduce the compulsive sexual behavior, too. They can help break the addiction.

Yes, I've suffered my fair share of sexual addiction. It was not the cause of my marriage problems, but it got pretty bad when the sex with the wife stopped. I was wallowing in self-pity, justifying it to myself. Even if I have no hope of saving the marriage, any addiction is a very bad thing, it makes you a slave to it, and controls your life. I worked to stop for my own well-being. He can, too.

God bless you.

1aokgal
8th May 2009, 05:57 AM
Dakereb...

you explained this situation very well. I read about this but your clarification is very informative. Thanks for sharing.

Raymond
8th May 2009, 08:29 AM
Thats good stuff Dakereb. I have heard lots of stories of people overcoming this and marriages being restored but they really have to want it as you say.

1Okgal I think you misundertand me. I do not believe in condemning or judging anyone. What I cannot abide is hypocrasy. A show of false virtue in leaders who preach one thing and do another. Because of the authority they hold those under them suffer. These are the one type of people that Jesus laid into. In his day it was the pharisees. He didn't just let it lie. He did something about it to release the people from deception. In all other cases he only showed love and compassion.

As it turns out I got it wrong about Bears husband it seems.

Raymond

Bear~
8th May 2009, 04:16 PM
Dakereb,

.


*Thank you for your Blessing*

You are right on with everything you wrote too!

The group was started around my hubby in 2001, that's when I put a program on my computer and found all the things he had been doing...and the women he had been doing it with~

At first I told him I couldn't deal with it anymore and gave him 2 months to find a place...( I had been throu a period where he was getting too close to females at work) then after talking and he joined this church we decided to try counseling to work things out...there were 6 men in the group...the minister and the men that usher and teach classes.

They also go away every January for a long weekend around 50 men for a men's worship retreat~ They do know about Every man's Battle, and have speakers come to talk and other ministers to preach~

This past month they have changed the biweekly meeting to late afternoon and hubby can't make it, but they still call and keep track of each other~

Hubby is VERY obsessive-compulsive he refused to stop MB when we were in counseling...said there was nothing wrong with it, thinks calling it an addiction is crazy as all men do it and he wasn't going to stop...he did try to cut down on his own and would tell me "I didn't do it all week"~

He doesn't go on any bad sites on the computer...course he knows I have a program that watches every thing...I have a 19&14 yr. old to watch~

Anyway, in the beginning we actually had better sex than before...then he slowly pulled away over the years...felt almost like if he couldn't do what he wanted then he wouldn't do anything.

He got very involved in the church...started telling me I didn't sing loud enough and I should join the women's group and sign up for teaching some of the classes...well I have a problem with church from my youth...never liked it and was going to support him.

I stopped going and he with the men's group left and started another church that after a year just got accepted as a church by the higher ups~

He is actually a nice person in many ways...he has gotten very judging of others...and still MB to the point he forgets that we don't have sex...it's like he's so wrapped up in work and church that unless I say something he wouldn't even know~

It's all very wearing and at times I just don't want to think about it or deal with it...he is never going to change after all these years it's who he is...like I said I'm happy to finally realize it has nothing to do with how I look or who I am*

Like most women here I've done the changes to myself to kick things up...got so down I almost lost mySelf* I at least feel Free of that heaviness~

*Bless you back*

1aokgal
8th May 2009, 06:25 PM
Raymond..

Any use of confidential information to damage the reputation or good name of another is never warranted or in a good cause.

Yes, you were wrong. I understood you perfectly. One who posts here should feel secure that anything shared remains here and safe. There can be no legitimate reason to pursue any further information.

1aokgal
8th May 2009, 07:13 PM
Dear Bear...

That is the hardest part to disassociate the fact one is rejected from the feeling of personally not measuring up as a woman, as a wife. I gained weight, I lost weight, I changed my hair, I changed my activities. Yes, I had breast implants ,"A little larger." said he (no change in activity). Later I had them removed and made smalller. Through all the weight loss/gain and pursuit of trying to find the "switch" that would get it back to what it was.....to FIX him and the problem, sustained such a level of stress.

I went under a doctors care for 6 months and took a legal weight loss drug. I lost the weight and looked great. Now I was told I was "too thin" and he was uncomfortable with that. A few years later I developed a dangerous heart dysfunction and so did 30% who took the drug. Notice the new killer, Hydroxycut, just taken of the market after deaths attributed to this weight loss drug.

Then there is 8 years of failing heart and many procedures at the best heart clinics, that did not work or caused more damage. It is what it is now. It was never about me. It was not about weight or my looks or performance. The problem with these men is a shared problem, a sex addiction to meet one's own needs. It has nothing to do with me.

How is it today? Problem under control with frequent hospitalizations needed. Is it fixable? No. Do I blame him? No. There were personal choices I made to try to "fix" him or make me what he wanted me to be.....to regain the love I thought I lost. Talk about dependent! I had the best years of my life with my husband. It is still better than my life before him. So anyone caught in the cycle with a rejecting spouse needs to act secure and get a good support network. This is a baffling problem and it tends to isolate the one who is rejected. It is a plus to realize it is a problem shared by many.

Bear~
8th May 2009, 07:35 PM
Dear Ok Gal,

Many times I've read your words and seen mySelf* It is a plus to realize there are others that know because they've Lived it~

I did the implants, tummy tuck, weight loss....hair change...until I almost became someone other than *Me*

I too have the Heart palps, high blood pressure...thankfully I was too chicken to use the weight loss pills actually got them 4 times and threw them away~

Tonite I'm going to spend time with my sisters...then do my 32 hours...lots of new and very needy patients...Hope the weekend goes by fast LOL!

Thanks for your shoulder...it means alot that you're always there* Miss Bambar too...Hope she's well :)

1aokgal
8th May 2009, 08:14 PM
Hi Bear...

You missed a good time sitting in all those heart clinic waiting rooms! I had a few other plastic procedures done and helped pay for my surgeons Mercedes. It would have been cheaper to find love on the side.

Good you passed on the weight loss drugs. There is a whole new generation of women trying to be figure perfect who will support the heart and plastic surgeons in future years. Our body images as women suck! Watch the new movie stars...size ZERO. No wonder women feel we are responsible if something goes wrong in the bedroom.
God bless.

Dakereb
11th May 2009, 02:49 AM
Bear, I strongly suspect your husband's group is dysfunctional. I think it's turned into a group of men who offer justifications to each other to excuse the behavior. Every man CAN change, but not all WILL change. The most important part of the process is to realize that he cannot change by himself, through sheer force of will. He MUST have support all around him, men who have been through it and he respects, that will get in his face and confront him when he lapses into making excuses. I don't think he has that. One day he will realize that it is not a freedom to masturbate at will, but that the real freedom is not NOT be a slave to masturbation. I am so very fortunate to have it pointed out to me before I got too bad, but without intervention I could have been much much worse. It didn't help that my wife actually encouraged me to masturbate, so she would not have to deal with sex. God helped me realize that this was wrong, but I did not realize exactly why until I got help. I really woke up when I found myself thinking about having an affair. God really spoke to me then!

Your husband has built a network of people around him that support the behavior, rather than support freedom from it. I am very glad that you realize it is not you, and that nothing you can do with your appearance will make a difference. He is hooked on an idealized, oversexed image of women. He's lost the ability to combine sexual intimacy with emotional intimacy at the same time. They've been disconnected in his mind. Very much hard work is needed to reconnect them. He has to start anew, with a new group for real support. Often an addict has to hit rock bottom to wake up to the damage he is inflicting on himself. It looks like his rock bottom will be to lose you. It would be his loss.

Thanks for the return blessing!

Dakereb
12th May 2009, 02:21 AM
Sorry, I did not mean to hijack the thread. Hopefully I have not stepped over the line.

I've learned so much about my past behavior, and it's given me insight into some of the problems I see here. I hope by sharing I can help others deal with their issues, and help some of the women here have a basic understanding of what's going on with their husbands. My situation is a little different, in that I did not escape to self-indulgence until after my marriage was already wrecked, but I know the feeling of addiction and I have met other men who have been through more than I have, men who fit the description of some of the husbands described here.

Most men do masturbate. For most, it does not become an overwhelming addiction that creates the grief of a sexless marriage. But it does often develop into an addiction, and because of that it is risky. And it always detracts from the relationship. It always encourages the man to put a wall up between his emotions and his physical needs. It always sets up a disconnect between emotional and physical intimacy.

God bless you all, and may your anguish be soothed.

Bear~
12th May 2009, 12:26 PM
Dakereb,

You did not over step here at all....your info is right on and greatly appreciated~

Sorry if I didn't respond sooner and caused you to wonder!!! I'm so wiped out from work...had to deal with a pcycho patient that wanted to yell and belittle staff...then file complaints about them....very long wearing weekend~

Yesterday I tried to just get back to being centered* Hubby found an old myspace I tried to setup...it said I was single...never figured out how to use it...or change it. The girls I talk to switched to facebook and so I did too...

He flipped and called me at work in the middle of all the crap I was trying to handle....he's on the line acting like a high school girl that just found out her boyfriend talked to another girl~

I told him he could get on the myspace and look around it was never used...I don't even know how to get rid of it...then felt like if I did it would make me look guilty!

Pretty sad when I don't even have a Life...then The woman I talked to is 70 yrs old...we actually spent 10 days with her in Hawaii...

Dakereb
13th May 2009, 04:10 AM
Seems he's insecure. That means he knows, deep inside, how destructive his behavour really is. He has much work to do to get himself sorted out. This requires more than a church support group, for certain. He will absolutely need a professional counselor that specializes in sexual addiction. Not just for the marriage, but for his own mental well-being. He's seriously addicted and in deep denial.

I'll pray for you both.

In the mean time, take care of yourself! Try not to let him drag you down with him. He may need you eventually, if he ever really decides to straighten out his life.

Bambar
26th May 2009, 08:03 AM
Hello everyone,

I dipped into the site a few days ago & was astonished & delighted to see Bear mention my name so kindly. It constantly amazes me that those posting here can be so generous to others while they are coping with such dreadful pressures in their own lives.

Being now out of a marriage for 7 months now (but still sexless) I feel hardly qualified to comment on the posts here & have not read them for a long time, so am out of touch with recent developments. Skinning through them, it is sad to see that so many of the same issues are still damaging the relationships of good people who struggle to balance their inner turmoil with showing a brave face in public.

For me, life continues to be an adjustment to having only myself to consider. In the last year I have lost 65 pounds, gone down 6 dress sizes & am told I look 10 years younger. I am healthier, happier & removing the stress of coping with my own marriage has lifted a huge emotional weight from me.

Things are by no means perfect, but I have no regrets about the decision I made. It was right for me but it took a vast amount of soul-searching before I found the strength to make such a radical move. The support of others posting on this site played an enormous part in giving me the courage of my convictions & I will always be grateful for that.

Keep up the good work.

Love to you all.

jknkth
29th May 2009, 07:02 AM
My friend is in living relation. A time back her partner has suffered from erection problem. Some one of his friends suggested him just try Levitra medicine. Now there is no problem in there relation. I just want to tell that if there is any problem in your relation due to some sexual issue than it can be removed.

Dakereb
5th June 2009, 03:01 AM
Wonder of wonders! I convinced my wife to join me for one counseling session, just to help me deal with anxiety issues. My counselor talked to her alone for a while, and brought up the marriage and sexual dysfunction issues with her. Amazingly, instead of being put off by having to talk about such private issues, my wife agreed to go with me to counseling every two weeks! Wow. Just, wow. Dare I hope? I've been hurt by hoping. I'll just pray it goes as God intends, and see what happens.

Ageing Grace
5th June 2009, 05:23 PM
That's incredible, Dakereb!

Carry on taking care of yourself and your spirit. Let your wife take care of hers: you're evidently setting a good example ... :)

My best wishes as always,
AG x

1aokgal
6th June 2009, 07:44 AM
Dakereb...


Do not expect miracles to occur. This behavior has gone on for a very long time. This will take some real self revelation and introspection by your wife to uncover those deep seated feelings. There has to be a starting place for the problems. That takes time.

She is unhappy and wants to at least salvage her life with you. Perhaps there are some areas you can improve on your end to bring back the spark. I wish you well in this.

Good luck.

Dakereb
18th June 2009, 03:28 AM
Yes, I don't expect miracles.

I ran across a "Dear Abby" article last Thursday. A woman wrote to say she did not want to be nude in front of her husband. It was not because she was embarrassed, but rather because she did not care for him sexually. She said he had had an affair a few years ago, and she was relieved because she now did not have to worry about meeting his needs. He stopped the affair, but she wished he was still seeing his lover.

I asked my wife if it could have been her that wrote the letter. She said yes. She said she often has wished I'd have an affair.

So, no, I don't expect miracles.

1aokgal
19th June 2009, 06:39 AM
Hi again Dakereb...

Hurtful to have those rejecting discussions, isn't it? I almost wonder if there is a dynamic where one knows the response but elicits the information again to hear the hurtful remarks as a reality check. Lest you be lulled into hope maybe you get this going to hear it again? Is that masochistic or do you still doubt she could feel so remote?

I never get into discussion at all as he would blow me off. I did see a really funny blow-up scene a month ago over a worker I had here at the house. He thought the guy was coming on to me and really acted like an ass. He made a big jealous scene before the guy got over one day to work on the Florida room. The guy was not of interest to me but I realize it was a fit and controlling and silly. Maybe he finally realized that he is here only 3.5 days a month and I do have a life the rest of the time and live alone. Maybe it just occurred to him I don't care when he is here that much. Why should I? He is one strange man with his internal problems what ever they might be. I will never know.

My husband has never realized I really did have an interested person who called me and tried to get close to me. If that man had not said something rather obscene over the phone one day I might have gotten to know him better. After a 6 month pursuit he got frustrated and let his real self out there. Good for me to hear. I cut that friendship right out. That puts me back to square one with a marriage of "brother and sister" as my grown daughter described it.

That puts me back to spending time/energy with my beautiful puppy and not to dwell on what isn't and will never be. I think my husband finds his life lonely at times as I am no longer emotionally available to him. Seems I put it all on the dog. Where your life might be fixable ..mine is not..at least in the relationship sense. It is fine in all the other areas.
Don't get me wrong..with my state of health I am lucky to be doing the things I do and live well. We all struggle with the feelings we have about this problem within our lives.

1aokgal
13th July 2009, 02:43 PM
Living with men with this issue perhaps there is no better time. When your partner is shutoff it is not about you or buying sexy nightwear or toys. It is diverted sexual energy with him. If he meets his own needs instead of with you then there is a habit and an addiction at times to that practice and perhaps pornography then it is sexual energy diverted.

He chooses that outlet in a selfish way to meet needs and you are just out there existing. Get a life apart from him with separate friends and activities. He has to be the one who changes and has to want to change. The more clinging and accusatory you become the less attractive and desirable you are to him. Sadly it is like an alcoholic who drinks alone. Many of these men divert energy all into their work lives and take their manhood from that angle. It is a sad thing to care about someone who locks themselves behind a wall. Very hurtful and destructive to ones' self esteem when you have to beg for crumbs of affection.


After years of this I detached and find I am happier and have a place I feel good about me in what I do. He is always holding my hand, very solicitous and anxious to please. I think he is now lonely. Go figure.
Divorce, no. Affair, no. Back to feeling vulnerable, hurt and sad...NO.
I am often too busy to talk to him as I have things I enjoy to do. Maybe the spark went out permanently? Let us say I care deeply for him but will not give over my soul to be hurt. Somehow the space I am in now emotionally is working.

Hope things get better for you but my common sense tell me it may not. Detach and stop worrying what he does or what he thinks or what is wrong with him. Work on your own life.

celibatestunner
1st August 2009, 07:30 PM
So good to read the last post. Thank you ! This is my first post. So comforting to find a community that understands the problem. I have been with my partner for 12 years and we've not had sex for 6 of them. He will not go for counselling and will not discuss the problem, which I see as weak and selfish. However, as I left my first husband who was alcoholic and unkind to me, i do not want to put my son thru a 2nd break up, so I stay. I have tried all solutions - pleading, sexy lingerie ( pointless) raging - nothing works. Had a one night affair about 5 years ago. Not proud but oh god it did my self-esteem so much good to be told I was beautiful, to be desired...... Slwoly I have learned to love myself a lot, to know I am gorgeous and that its his problem, not anything to do with me. I take prozac, which helps, I have my own life, good self-confidence, lots of interests, loads of friends, both male and female from whom I get a lot of compliments and hugs. I'm not sure about my feelings for my partner - he's like a brother and I like him well enough, don't feel any rage, most of the time anyway. We get on Ok, laugh together, enjoy music together, lead fairly separate lives. But most important, the kids have stability, I am happier, and life is often good in spite of my relationship problems. The best revenge is happiness! I do miss sex though, I miss a passionate kiss, I miss the intimacy of naked touch - I wonder if I will ever enjoy these things again in my life if I remain with this man and try to maintain fidelity. Is it so wrong to be unfaithful to someone who refuses to hear me tell him how lonely I am?

adrift
2nd August 2009, 10:38 PM
Your question sums up all my feelings!! I have been married for 7 years now. I have experienced rejection countless times in the first couple of years. Gradually, I stopped trying. Now there is a certain awkwardness between us. We dont even discuss the issue anymore (convininetly for him). I have tried everything in the past. Have experienced rage, helplessness, hopelessness......it is so incredibly hard to live in a marriage deviod of any closeness at all. The last time he gave me a quick hug was 2.5 years back. He is a very good father to our little boy (2.5). I cant dream of seperating him from his dad. But somewhere deep down, its killing me. I feel i'm falling apart. Though I dont wish this life to my worst enemy, Its comforting to know there are people who would understand what I'm going through. I am very attractive and get compliments all the time. Each time someone says something nice to me, my heart aches. Your post made me feel good in a strange way. maybe because I feel good to see that you didnt let this situation destroy you. Well done :)

1aokgal
5th August 2009, 10:40 AM
The question seems to be ..Is it wrong to have an affair when ones' marriage is sexless? I think each person must decide what is tolerable for them. Sex fpr most women is emotional more than physical. So, having sex with another isn't going to bring all that most women seek..liking, affection, desire, affirmation, etc. If a woman finds all that in another man she likely will leave the unfulfilled marriage.

Most women don't find the aftermath of a light sexual fling as worthwhile which does not fulfill the emotion lacking in her marriage. Now if she finds all those qualities in another, and he is in a same situation and is genuine, kind and giving then I think that affair would surpass the hurt and anger of a stymied marriage. I consider this question on a regular schedule. That proves that it still matters.

kim
6th August 2009, 11:56 AM
I knew I wasn't the only one but it sure felt like it til I found this. We've been married 6 years and he is the most amazing man except for this. Before marriage he was a different person. He/we have been going to therapy for 2 years and i'm about to give up and just have an affair. I found the ashleymadison website and it actually turned me off; i don't want to do that to the man i love but i'm getting desperate. I told him he didn't have to go to therapy any more because I don't want to pressure him but it just seems so unfair that the way we live is comfortable for him and miserable for me.

i am also in a marriage without sex, i love my husband very much we have been married for 23 years and the sex was great for the first 5 years then slowly died and we have not had sex for 10 years . i have been through many stages of anger depression and he also gave me permission to devorce him rather than do anything about it , i also have thought long and hard about an affair but have not done it as i love my husband to much ,ironic i know i pray for all of us women but do not have any advice sorry

1aokgal
8th August 2009, 08:02 AM
Kim...

I am very sorry to hear you have been so cheated of what every marriage should have..the love and affection that is the glue to get through all problems. it is true one goes through all cycles from anger, depression and just not even caring for a time. We do care...we care very much because something is missing in our emotional life.

Yes, it is a hopeless situation when the man does not take responsobility to discuss or address the issues or even go get a medical checkup to see if something physical is wrong. Desire for a man comes in a bottle. It is called Viagara and available easily but the man has to WANT to change being selfish, to be the guy you married. Most of these men are very nice AND meet their own needs. It is easy and non-emotional for them. Sometimes I think the only passion is many are workaholics because there they feel like a real men.

I am afraid there is no answer you want to hear. So be your own psychiatrist and find what makes YOU happy. Are you content to live without sex for the rst of your life then stay and hope you won't despise him for taking that away. An affair? women usually can't do that well and prefer the emotioanl strings they don't have in the marriage.

Good he has agreed to be in therapy but two years and no progress? Does not sound promising that anything will change. Very sad for you. So sorry for your unhappiness.

Bear~
9th August 2009, 02:02 PM
1AokGal

Just wanted to stop in and say "Hello" and send you a (((HUG)))

Thank you for your "Words of Wisdom"* I have taken a new job in assisted Care working full time which means I sleep alone during the day~ This along with lots of time out with my Sisters&Friends has helped so much!

He still buys me flowers and I hear he's planning a big Birthday Party for me...he even asks for "fooling around" now and then but, it's as boring as washing the floor~

He actually asked me during foreplay "so is our son still dating his girl or are they just friends now"? I replied "is that suppose to turn me on"? Honest it's like having sex with someone that's a robot...I actually find it worse than no sex at all*

As far as an affair; I think it depends on who you are as a woman...some can handle it, some not...there are men out there that want friendship&good sex with no ties...men that want just sex and no talking...

Right now I'm Healing....don't want anything but "Me" back....but in the future if someone Special came by and it worked for me I may not look the other way...who knows*

Take care of yourself~*Bless You*~

1aokgal
10th August 2009, 02:14 AM
Hi Bear...

Hug to you, Girlfriend. So glad the job is going OK for you. Listen, we cannot understand your husband at all, can we? It goes without saying he loves you...(values you) because he tries to do some things for you to please you... as the flowers and BD party.

So let us say his heart is good. He is just POT DUMB about women and you in particular. I don't know if he EVER was the big heart throb at the beginning? Was he romantic and did he try to win you with sweet gestures? Maybe the familiarity of the long marriage means he does this like a toothbrush and is assured of the outcome so feels it is not worth it to put forth effort.

I think you need to get a regular DATE night. Yes, a real eve away from the TV and familiar and dress up a little and do NOT talk about problems or household trivia. Go have an ice cream if budget is tight but go together. The same old bed, the same old way...Can't we vary that a little?

I know making out a little time in the car is risky but how about bubble bath for two? I think the routine is too regular and that needs to include real evening and fun. I know a couple who set it every thursday. They go to dinner or dancing and end it with the two of them...not bad for over 30 years together.

The shine is off your pumpkin boy, just try to find it again. See in him what you saw before. When you pretend it is real..it gets real they say.

Here is a hug and don't give it up. Being alone is worse than having a rather dul routine. Remember one mans' trash is anothers treasure. Somewhere is a tootsie who might like your man so be carful.

1aokgal

Bear~
15th August 2009, 03:16 PM
1AokGal,

Sorry it took me a while to get back here!

I've been very busy at work and my son just left for college! One more to go Yippee***

I've tried the many things of Love with hubby...right now we actually get along very well and have enjoyed each others company&humor* Just not much of a flame burning in the bedroom...he came on like a forest fire in the beginning...many moons ago LOL!

Then he thought the chase was over...what if something better comes along...then he thought because he was the man he ran the house....we've been thru it ALL***

As you said familiarity is like brushing your teeth in the dark...the shine is off his pumpkin cuz he'd rather "rub it himself" and sad to say but, I don't really care anymore. Wore mySelf out trying to be better looking, better in bed, better outta bed....then the painful realization that it really had nothing to do with me*

Have to say it's like the steps of grieving a death; Denial&Isolation,Anger, Bargaining,Depression, Acceptance>Recovering from Grief*

Love&Hugs to you Girl Keep on keeping on!

Love&Hug to you too Miss Bambar>Always in my Heart*

1aokgal
16th August 2009, 07:51 AM
Hi Bear...

It works in stages with me as well, Bear. I will care terribly about the issues for a few days then into limbo and don't even think about it. Sometimes really sad and then a time of anger.

I realize if he came today and said ,"Let's." I would not be much interested. I have been ill treated by someone who claims to love me who meets his own needs. It would be difficult to be near him physically because of that resentment and anger.

The rest of life is good and I make it OK. Hard to have friends...he is never here so one does not mix with couples. I am too active and about for many boat, dog training, walking the trails, dressing Victorian and going to events. So I do things alone. That no longer bothers me except where the boat is concerned I'd like to have a boat pal. Most are not into the life and some worry about their nail polish.


Take care of yourself...hope things one day might change for the better for you.

Dakereb
17th August 2009, 04:50 AM
I've been away from this board for a while, and I see now there are a few new women here with the same issue as most. It is indeed very sad.

I am a man in a similar situation, and I've posted my story here some time ago. Essentially, my wife refuses sex. She rejects me, and prefers we just be friends, albeit married friends. I need more than that.

So, I have been going to counseling. One thing the counselor asked me is what do I do with my sexual energy. I answered honestly, I masturbate. I don't want to cheat because I don't want to give up hope, but I just have to get a release once in a while. The counselor directed me to a Christian sexual addiction group.

I have learn so very much in that group. One thing I have learned is that masturbation can, for men, easily develop into a serious addiction. Men begin to associate sexual release with masturbation instead of sexual intercourse with their mate, and can lose the intimate connection with their mate as a result. Once that happens, it is very difficult to re-establish the sexual link to the mate.

Fortunately for me, I am not yet at the same stage as many of these men I have met. I would so gladly give up self-gratification and have sex with my wife, if only she would show interest and real desire. God, I miss it so. But I need to do something to change the course of my life before it gets to be impossible.

There are so many reasons men develop this "habit." I have talked to dozens of men about it over the last few months. It is truly amazing how, even though they know they are wrecking not just their own lives, but the lives of their spouse and children, the do it anyway. Some even carry it farther, to soliciting prostitutes, to affairs. I am not talking about men who have unwilling wives; these fellows have wives that never rejected their sexual advances. It seems bizarre.

I suspect some of the women here are living with men who have these problems, and are just completely flummoxed by these men. Many do not even know their mate is in the habit of masturbating, or they know he does it but they do not realize how it can completely take over the man's life and ruin the relationship. Think of it as a drug addiction, that is how powerful it can be.

I'll try to get on the board here more often and, if anyone has any questions about what men really think as they withdraw into this secret world they create, I'll try to help. I've felt myself withdrawing sometimes, but the men I have talked to about it have really withdrawn.

There is a book I can recommend, available in Christian bookstores, and probably online, called "At the Altar of Sexual Idolatry" by a fellow named Gallagher (I hope I spelled that right). If your husband is sexually off course, this may provide some insight. But I'll warn you, it is blunt and direct. It is written as a self-help guide for men to help them overcome sexual addiction. What was tough for me to get my head around is the idea that a man who completely rejects his wife sexually could be a sex addict. But he can. And it is much more common than most people realize.

Love and peace to you all.

1aokgal
17th August 2009, 06:30 AM
Hi Dakereb....

Just a note to say hello and to let you know we think of you here on the forum. Good posting for you to leave and many women have not got a clue why their men are not interested and the intimacy is gone.

I have a clue... and have known for a long time I was not longer connected in any sense to the man I married as sex has been a dim memory of many years ago. It almost seems as if your counselor is trying to treat YOUR problem when you don't have the problem. Many women think it is something they have done or something that they haven't done and keep trying to "FIX" the problem.

They believe something about them is the problem and it isn't about them at all. I learned that long ago but I spent some years in trying to understand why my husband no longer loved me. I equate loving sexual compatibiltiy as integral to the marriage. He never stopped loving me, he just has no use for sex in the marriage. He is the whole package and I am on the outside of that. SO I made my own world as best I could. It was only after I explored all the other reasons that I acceped the real truth here as you said.

Some us will never have more than what we have now. That is how it is.

Dakereb
18th August 2009, 02:53 AM
Yes, 1aok, the therapist did sort of home in on my issues, but that is what I wanted. I figured that it takes two to mess things up as bad as my marriage is messed up, so at least I could work on what I've done wrong. It was interesting once my wife attended, though. There are some things I did to defend myself against further rejection that amplified the problem for my wife. It turned into a downhill spiral. She'd reject me, I'd withdraw, then she'd feel justified for rejecting me. On and on it went.

The initial reason for the rejection is something we have not yet been able to uncover. The counselor really thinks my wife suffered some kind of sexual abuse as a kid. If not that, then SOMEthing.

1aokgal
19th August 2009, 03:34 AM
Dakereb...

I am of the school of thought that says,"Who cares what their problem/angle is or why they
withdraw?" I say concentrate on your own desires, needs, abilities and make life better for you. Most of your marriage it was all about HER..now let it be about you.

Take a course, find a sport, get a niche. If you like to build models, do it. Find that which satisfies and pleases you and I feel as if she will pursue you. Right now, she has all the power.
That is how I did it for meI took back my self esteem and did things that makes me happy.

I got the dogs and see a private trainer and get them ready for competition. I paint and belong to an artist group. My business is engrossing and I keep very busy. I won't say he has to make an appointment to see me but I don't have as much time to worry/obsess about the issues.
I am happier than I used to be. I doubt you seek a divorce so it seems you just need to find more ways to invest your interest and energy.

Dakereb
20th August 2009, 03:01 AM
Not a bad approach. I don't know if I can get there, though. I need a relationship.

A big contributing factor to my problem is that I am a worrier. I do not do well with uncertainty. Sure, no one really likes uncertainty, but I react really strongly to it. It gets a bit complicated, but what happened was I tried so hard to eliminate uncertainty that I became too self-centered. My wife took that to mean I did not care about her or what she was doing, so she withdrew. It's a tangle. The wife understands now, but she's still convinced I'm just not compatible with her. She doesn't think I am a bad, uncaring jerk, but she just does not feel more than friendship with me. So, some things I can change, and some I cannot. How she feels, I cannot change. I am identifying and working on those traits I have that do not serve me well, but, as I told my wife, some things just won't be changed, no matter how hard I might try. She's okay with that, and she appreciates that I am more understanding and better able to see why she reacted as she has, but all that does not mean she will ever feel affection for me again. There is a lot of "water under the bridge," as they say.

She wants me to do what I want to do. Amazingly, if I had an affair, she'd be okay with that. Knowing that really hurts, I guess because it makes it so clear that this will never be a real marriage. Such is life.

1aokgal
20th August 2009, 06:56 AM
Dear Dakereb...

What you said in your post worries me because you may think you are somehow at fault and you try to change (FIX yourself) so you will be more loveable/worthy for her to love you. That implies to me that you do not love you. I hope that in all that trying to be what she expects.... you really can see this. I doubt YOU are the problem.

Now I have been there......maybe I am more "evolved" in this problem or just delusional??? Who knows! That "fixing" is a big problem. You try to WIN something that is unwinable. I can guarantee she will never be more than the COLD FISH she is today. You fished in cold waters, my friend, because these character traits are not ever going to be warm and fuzzy.

One day you might hit bottom again because you FIX all that stuff (about you) that you think is wrong and she still won't love you. Maybe it is because she is INCAPABLE to love anyone? SO then it has nothing to do with you. Maybe that would be a relief to know.


I finally got it that it had nothing to do with me. We don't let ourselves go and become a SLUG but we can like ourselves better if we realize that a NORMAL person..which these people are not..would love us.

So that frees one up to be happier and not to feel miserable because they aren't worth it to rob joy from living. We can also feel a tiny bit sorry for someone who has a wilted heart. It means that they will never know they could have been loved a lot.

I hope you work all this through because you seem a perfectly nice man who deserves a joy filled life. The other person won't change but you can change and not care what they think. I worry too that if I don't seize the happy moments in little things life will get past me unappreciated. So I live joyful in the times I can.

Dakereb
21st August 2009, 01:20 AM
I know what you mean, and I appreciate the warning. I figure there is always room for improvement in myself, and if she notices, great. If she does not, then there is no hope. Right now, she has taken note of my better approach to life, and likes it. Now, whether or not that means she'll commit to the relationship remains to be seen. She is aware that it either gets better, or I end it.

On the plus side of all this, I have gained more than a little insight into how things went awry and what could have been done to prevent it, both by me and by her. If I can help others from walking my path, then something good would have come of it. There is no doubt, I retreated. She froze me out, and my reaction was incorrect. It was a common reaction, but still incorrect. I suspect some of the husbands on this site have done what I did, but never snapped out of it. As a result, wives feel hurt and neglected.

1aokgal
21st August 2009, 06:38 AM
Dear Dakereb...

You are a very loving man and so committed to this woman, I hope she wakes up and sees she has a prize. Life is too short to spend it beating ones' head against a brick wall.

Things are going along for me. I am working harder on some projects I left incomplete and seemed there were too many things going at once. The dog training has been a lot of effort and a strong dominant dog takes work. That has gotten some nice walks in places I wouldn't walk alone. I signed up for another series of training class for one of them.

I understand my husband plans to take a week of vacation time. I am a little unsure of that. There are a lot of things he could do but I hope he dosen't think I am on call for companion so much. I have my own activities. Yes, I know advice would be to spend time together but when I wanted him along he was not available. I am afraid now I have things to do. He said he would go with me to one of my activities when he heard I was going. I am just used to go alone and not worry about that. There are a few misgivings about the week. We shall see.

Dakereb
22nd August 2009, 04:02 AM
Well, 1aok, thank you for the validation!

Don't lose sleep over the upcoming "vacation." Just be yourself, go with the flow, and don't let your feathers get ruffled. Outline for him what your schedule is, and if he wants to join you, so be it. He may feel like a third wheel, but that's not your problem. If he's any at all contemplative, he'll get the picture.

1aokgal
23rd August 2009, 02:00 AM
Dakereb...

Good advice...thanks. Have a nice weekend.

hallkel
4th September 2009, 10:21 PM
many gay individuals avoid sexual relations for religious reasons. Some see having sex with someone of the same gender to be a sin, not so much the relationship itself. Just talk to him about it, try to approach the issue with an unbiased approach and discuss the future of your relationship together. If it is meant to be, you guys will settle on a happy compromise.

Best wishes!!

Hitman
9th September 2009, 12:18 PM
Hello all ...

Here is my story ...

I am a man 42 been married for 15 years now and in a sexless marriage. My wife has the lower sex drive and I don't think I have a high sex drive more what I would class as normal.

We were ok for the first 3 years. Then we had our first child and her sex drive became lower and that is understandable as she was more tired etc.

Gradually over the years my wife is just not interested. Things have been bad now for 10 years. She shows no affection and will not touch me. Its not nice when you try to kiss her or touch her and get rejected. I feel so lonely and unloved and it has been etching away at me over the years and has really got me down. Its not the sex that is important for me but the intimacy. That feeling of being loved, wanted and not being rejected all the time.
We have tried talking, counselling with Relate (this did help for a while but then things started to go down hill again). We even reached a compromise on sex to do it once or twice a week but its not the same as it feels more like a scheduled appointment than love making. Its not intimate and you know the other person wants it to end quickly. Anyway this situation made me feel guilty and it got to a stage where I stopped initiating and the frequency became less and less.

Its a sad situation to be in but what can you do? The options are divorce, cheat with prostitutes, have an affair or live with it. I love my wife with all my heart and would never leave or cheat on her. I have now found ways of dealing with my frustration and loneliness by doing charity work. It keeps me busy and even though it can not completly remove the sadness it helps.

Thanks to this forum that I can express my story.

Dakereb
15th September 2009, 03:01 AM
I feel for ya', Hitman. I REALLY feel for you. Men react much more strongly to rejection than some women realize, and your wife is one of those women. The quickest way to get a husband to emotionally disengage from the relationship is to reject him physically. Do that a few times, and he won't go back for more.

If your wife is still open to counseling, I recommend you two go to a counsellor regularly. There is likely much more going on in your marriage than can easily be captured in posts here. It is such a complex dynamic.

Does she say she loves you? If yes, maybe there's hope. If she is like my wife and does not her husband, it's not an optimistic future.

1aokgal
17th September 2009, 04:35 AM
It is the sad thing to love another and find they have withdrawn from emotional exchange and there seems no reason for it. Perhaps they don't know themselves what triggers this alienated space. It might be as lonely for them to be locked inside themselves as it is to be shut on the outside.

I feel pity for someone who can't reach out and at least express what problems in themselves or in the marriage can be changed. While I am angry about this in my own life I feel pity for my husband. He can't feel great about the state of our relationship. If he cared nothing, he would have left. He remains a doting, fond companion. What happened to the vibrant romantic person I married?

One can always hope that one day we can work to heal the divide. Read the obituaries and see there is no chance for them to make things better. I hope one day to find my husband again in the man who shares my life but seems so distant. Perhaps we have to believe very hard that one day things will change. I have done what I can to reach out for many years. Then one just gives up. I hate that part that I don't have the energy to try again. They always say how many times should we try? A hundred more times if we must.

Dakereb
19th September 2009, 04:13 AM
My wife and I had a really long talk the other night. It was one of those that lasted until 1am or so. I think we made a little progress. I am so reluctant to hope.

One of her complaints had been that men in general just want sex. Whenever I used to approach her, way back so many years ago that I hardly remember it anymore, she assumed I just wanted sex. I used to be flummoxed by that, thinking she must be right, I do want sex. Now I understand a bit better what is going on. I explained to her that while I do want sex, it's not ONLY sex that I want. For men, sex carries with it an emotional element. Men are not the animalistic sex maniacs depicted on television. We are far more sophisticated emotionally than that, even if we cannot express it in words. I explained that I want sex not because I am fixated on sexual gratification, but because being accepted sexually means being accepted as a whole person. It means that she wants to be with me, be connected to me, in spite of flaws and shortcomings. It means I can be human, and vulnerable, with her. Most men feel this way, even if they cannot exactly put a finger on what they are feeling. So, to reject a man sexually, as she has done with me, is to reject me emotionally.

Believe it or not, she did not understand that before. She really thought that I, as a man, just wanted sex. This is why she thought that I should just go out and find sex somewhere else. She did not get that to do so would be to give up on ever establishing the emotional intimacy the marriage needs. The way she had distilled it down to me just wanting sex made it seem so crass, she found it unappealing. The difficult thing for me to explain to her is that, while sex is necessary, it is not crass because it has much more significance to it beyond simple physical gratification.

I tried to explain to her that men do not do well with celibacy in marriage, and most will substitute masturbation. I tried to explain the danger of this, that masturbation can be addictive, and it could make it impossible for me to ever establish normal sexual relations with her, or any other woman should our marriage end, in the future. It is not something I want to have happen. Many men ruin their lives with it, and ruin the lives of the people around them, because when sex is separated from an emotional relationship it can easily lead to affairs, one night stands, seeking prostitutes. Once that starts, it's a cycle most men cannot extricate themselves from without help. I've seen it happen to others. I do not want that to happen to me.

Unfortunately, even with all this, she says she may not be ready to restart our sexual relationship for years. Right now she has no interest in sex, and the visits with the counselor are just a start down the road toward maybe someday being intimate once again. She feels it will take years.

I don't know if I can wait years. Life is so short. I want to wait, to invest in this commitment. But I am so easily distracted. I find myself wishing for a new relationship with someone who already understands all this. Then I feel like a heel for wandering into such fantasies. My wife felt that I already had the emotional connection with her that I needed, because we do get along well and we can talk about issues such as this. Hopefully now she fully understands that the emotional connection is just not complete unless it is expressed sexually. It is not that I am a sex maniac, it is that I am a normal man, and sex is a normal, necessary part of a marriage.

Hitman
20th September 2009, 08:29 PM
Hi,

I have been asked about my experiences with Relate and so I am sharing here ....

When you read this forum its always good to know that you are not alone in this situation.

My wife and I had a long chat and decided to give Relate a try. We both wanted the marriage to work and not to be another statistic.

We went to Relate and I remember being very nervous on the first visit but the therapist put us at ease straight away. We were assigned a sex therapist.

The first meeting was an introductory meeting to find a bit more about us what our problem was and the way he was going to tackle things. The first step was to interview us separately and ask us a series of questions on our relationship and sex etc. This was to get a feel for where each of us were coming from and what our issues were with regards to the relationship and sex. It also helped him to understand whether we had a strong bond and apart from the sex was the relationship sound.

After this initial interview with each of us the therapist was able to better understand our marriage and the sexual problems. After the initial meetings separately each subsequent meeting was together where a number of issues were discussed. What he decided as a first step was to abstain from sex all together to remove it from the equation. Its weird as I was thinking well this is where we are anyway!

He recommended twice weekly massage sessions with each other where we could get to know each others body and understand what the other person likes in terms of touch etc. Strictly no touching of sexual parts and underwear on. It helped me to understand where my wife likes to be touched and it helped to relax her after a stressful day. The funny thing is this official bar on sex had the reverse effect and my wife wanted to break the rules! Things got progressively better and although we weren't at it like rabbits we had managed to get back some intimacy and sex. It helped me to understand what my wife was feeling ... how she didn't understand that sex was not the be all and end all for me and that all intimacy did not need to end up with sex. There is a common misconception in women that all men want is sex and it is just a release for them and this is what my wife felt.

Anyway over the comming weeks and months things improved a lot and I would recommend it as it helped me to understand what my wife was thinking and feeling and where my part and short comings were in all this. Our relationship is a lot better now for going to Relate. It was difficult to maintain the massage sessions and slowly over time these disappeared as it is very difficult to make the time with kids, work etc. Anyway your message got me thinking and I started the sessions again this week and it has been good to get that time and contact together again.

I would recommend you read this book "The sex starved marriage" by Michelle Weiner Davis. Excellent and you will find a lot of things that match what is happening to you and how to resolve. Good luck everyone!

Kind Regards,

Hitman.

Dakereb
21st September 2009, 12:19 AM
Sounds like good advice. My wife refuses to allow me to massage her. She hates to be touched like that, always has. We're using hugs instead. I've never heard of Relate, and from what you post it sounds pretty good, but surely you've left out a lot of detail. I plan on asking our counselor about it this week.

Hitman
22nd September 2009, 10:54 AM
Hi ...

Yes there is lots more I could write but then I'd have to be on here all day :-).
If you want any specific details let me know.

Kind Regards,

Hitman.

1aokgal
23rd September 2009, 07:15 AM
Dear Dakereb...

Just a comment on your post above.

Women do not do well with imposed celibacy either. No fear of getting addicted to the alternative, but I do think a woman has opportunity to leave the marriage or leave it for a lover. The constraints would be health, age, confidence and moral compass which may feel an affair meets only part of what is missing.

When one partner has made a decision to hold the other hostage to their control or whim it is unfair and injurious in every repect. If a partner is willing to embark on counselling that is a positive step but some will not admit or discuss a problem exists. I wonder how many married couples live in completely sexless arrangements?
Perhaps it depends on the level of intimacy missing from the marriage.

Endthegame
23rd September 2009, 02:38 PM
Thanks for your reply hitman

I fear we are far more advanced in our problems than you, but we shall see in the fullness of time.
My wife has said that she simply sees no reason to hug, kiss, hold hands, even give 'that look' that a wife gives to her husband or vice versa. That bond only couples have - the in joke. There seems to be no connection. However, the relationship is mostly civil here, sometimes even good! So I am at a loss. She will not come with me to Relate.
Relate offered me techniques to improve conflict resolution, understanding, self reflection and how to not assume you know someone else’s feelings. All of these are admirable traits to learn, but sadly my wife seems to have no link between intimacy and love. They are quite simply separate things for her. I have said I am desperately lonely, and she just looks at me blankly as if to say 'why?'
I am clutching at straws now for understanding in the hope that there is a way to bring us closer together. The irony is - she is as close as she wants to be, but for me it is miles apart.
I do not wish to be intimate with her if she does not want me to, even holding hands seems pointless to her, so I don't.
The trouble is for me now, I have moved so far away in my mind and heart maybe I can't get back, and I honestly think this may be a good thing. The beginning of the end maybe.
I am waiting for another appointment date from Relate, I will give you an update sometime, you never know. . .

Raymond
24th September 2009, 08:54 AM
I have prayed for you Katsey. You musn't lose hope. Porn is destroying a lot of marriages in these days by killing the physical intimacy. This is not your fault. It seems he came into marriage with this habit. I can tell you now he will not be free of it until he really wants to be. Some endure a sexless life where there is porn but many get out while they can. I know of many that have oversome the habit but that is in christian circles where they have asked for christs help and got his people to help them. There may be people who come of it through other means but I don't know of them personally. Try and build yourself up so that you can make the decisions you have to. If you can get him to watch the movie fireproof that may be a help but I don't know how open he is to that sort of thing.

Raymond

Dakereb
6th October 2009, 02:48 AM
So sorry for the long lapse, I have many pots on the burners....

Katsey, you may have heard this many times, and Raymond said it again, but this IS NOT YOUR FAULT. You are not a loser. I understand the sensation of helplessness. But there is a future for you, and it need not be bleak.

You cannot change your husband. He can only change if he truly desires to change. In my Christian group, there are many men who have been where your husband is now, and they, with God's help through the support of other men, worked their way out of the addiction. But it cannot happen unless he is serious as a heart attack about it. In the mean time, you are hurting.

Therefore, you need to set about making it on your own. Even if you continue to live with him for financial reasons, you need to be reliant upon yourself. If you do not have a job, you should seek one. Even a menial job will do wonders for your self-esteem. The job market is very difficult right now, so you may have to settle for volunteer work (but never stop looking for a paying job). The volunteer work will put you in contact with others, widening your circle of acquaintances, putting you with others who will appreciate you.

Counseling is important for you. A good counselor can put many things in proper perspective for you, and teach you methods that, over time, alter your way of thinking about yourself and your situation. A good counselor can literally be a lifesaver.

When you get through this, you will have learned many things about life, people, addictions, sexual relations, genuine relationships, and more. You will be such a valuable resource to others. God has placed a burden on you now, but your role in life is great. Hang in there. You will one day look back and realize how strong you have become because of these trials.

susand
7th October 2009, 09:44 AM
Hi Hitman,

The sex starved marriage is a good book although you shouldn't expect miracles from it.

I also recommend Fix Your Sexless Marriage by Kate Dixon. It's a book that I believe can prove helpful to many people. However, if the lack of sex is due to a physical problem it won't help. It can help a lot if this is a psychological problem or something to do with the relationship

Susan

Hitman
7th October 2009, 12:10 PM
Hi Susan,

Thank you for your post.
I must admit I have recently reached my lowest point and was thinking whats the point in carryind on? Maybe the book you recommend will give some hope. After all we all need hope in life.

Kind Regards,

Hitman.

Joe S
14th October 2009, 12:07 AM
Just so you all know it's not just the women that have the problems, my wife isn't interested in sex. We haven't done it for 2years, and we've only been married 5years. I have a high sex drive, and it's driving me mad, to the point of ALWAYS flirting with other women.

I feel really empty inside, because I want passion and excitement in my life!!

Katsey
14th October 2009, 08:09 PM
When you get through this, you will have learned many things about life, people, addictions, sexual relations, genuine relationships, and more. You will be such a valuable resource to others. God has placed a burden on you now, but your role in life is great. Hang in there. You will one day look back and realize how strong you have become because of these trials.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your kind words Daekereb. They have stayed in my mind.

Dakereb
16th October 2009, 08:43 AM
Katsey, try not to let this get you down too much. Keep us posted.

Joe S, there are SO many reasons why she refuses sex. One of the first things you need to do is identify those things you have control over, and those you do not. You control your own actions, but not hers. What is it that she is reacting to? It may have nothing to do with you. It may have everything to do with you. Withholding sex is not a good way to communicate problems because it usually causes problems to escalate, but it got your attention. Any idea why she would do this?

sad
22nd October 2009, 11:14 AM
We have been married for 2.5 yrs now and I can count the number of times that we have had it.My husband has never ever initiated sex between us neither does he seem to have the urge. I have tried talking him into it several times but now I have given up on being a 'constant reminder' for something as basic as sex.As expected , my bedroom dissatisfaction has creeped into our other interactions and I always find myself being very irritaed and impatient with him always. I feel that I have been denied of my basic needs and at the same time feel as though he is totally disregarding my womanhood. I have heard of lots of stories where couples lose out on the drive several years into a marriage but we are talking about a marriage which is still quiet young!
He refuses to seek any help or discuss the same with a friend or family.
Could someone tell me what I could probably do next?

1aokgal
22nd October 2009, 07:24 PM
Yes, I can tell you what to do next. Confront, confront, confront! If it blows the marriage out the door then you lost nothing but 2.5 years. When the guy avoids the subject and sweeps it...and you, to the side it is likely he is getting HIS without you. That is, he may have issues with porn, MB or a basic selfishness so complete he goes through life meeting his own needs. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, you spend part of each day sad, depressed, self-critical and being nagging, critical and fault finding because the deep inner issues are eating you alive.

You must confront and not in a nice easy going way to disrupt his self satisfaction. If you do not do that then you let compliance with the status-quo take over until the pattern is set. No one knows this more than I do. Anger erodes the love you feel for him and unhappiness will steal your soul. The very person you are..as you said, the woman you are is being taken for granted like a piece of the wall. A woman loses confidence and her sensuality becomes the routine of living, albeit with no sex in the marriage.

Sadness can become the grief of longing and desire turns to acid in ones' veins. Soon daily living has the undertone of dissatisfaction over small events. This is a sickness of soul for both. A man who denies another the essence of passion will never know what pain he causes his partner. Does he question how she meets her needs or does he even care? A woman held hostage to anothers selfishness becomes a shell who fills in the blank spots with activities and other things that give some happiness. If you cannot confront to work through these issues than you begin to consider this marriage has failed. Otherwise you will spend years in regret.

This week is a 29th wedding anniversary. My husband is such an attractive, intelligent and good person in character and does a lot for me. It is no understatement to say I love him passionately, completely and absolutely and deeply desire to be with him until the end of my life. I wish him good and desire to see him happy. I bake bread and make cookies and share love for the same music. Yesterday, on TV when I saw the old telecast of the singer, Pavarotti, in concert Central Park before his death, the music moved me. I wondered if my husband had heard this concert. It was sad he works in another city and we could not hear it together. We loved these concerts.

My husband will always be the man who has been most kind to me. He was a good stepfather to my young daughter all these years. If I could turn back years I would have done more of what I advise you to do. Make his life miserable at every chance and confront him about this issue that divides and destroys the foundation of your marriage. Confront and get him to a counselor or group where you can find each other again.

Do not let routine or time sweep the issue away. Don't compromise or feel you are not worth the effort it takes to work to the point you set up date nights or time that belongs to you both. Do not bring children into this marriage until you are assurred you are both on the same page about what you need and desire from him. Let him know he is loved and reach out. Try one more time before anger robs you of hope.

If I could turn back time I would find him again, as the time I had with him in the years before.
He was my hero, who is my man. It was wonderful and memory is kind.

sad
23rd October 2009, 12:12 AM
You might probably be able to have an idea of the feelings lashing out in my mind after reading ur reply....This is the first time ever that I have very briefly discussed this burning matter with anyone and I feel so consoled to read that you share pretty much the same train of thoughts as me.
This has given me a ray of hope, probably not to find a solution, but atleast to be able to handle this situation in a much bolder manner.You have in fact stolen words out of me...'sensuality becoming the routine of life'... And children is something that I am pretty sure that I will nt let come into this marriage unless as you said I have things cleared out between us, though my hearts been craving for a child since a while now.
thanx so much for your thoughts...will reflect and act on them. As you said, I d have to try one good last time, before the already set in anger robs me of all hope!

Dakereb
23rd October 2009, 04:34 AM
Good advice from 1aok, as usual. I'd like to add a little.

Do NOT wait to address this. I don't know what it is that your husband is dealing with, but it's obviously something he does not want to confront. You need to tell him that, although you do not want to be difficult and are not trying to hurt him, you MUST have sex in the marriage. There has to be concrete consequences if he does not deal with his issues, and the consequence would be that you will leave. Not to punish him, but to move on in YOUR life. He can decide which is more important to him; avoiding his problems or keeping his marriage. There is no middle ground. Do this with conviction, with backbone, but with a gentle yet firm demeanor. Make sure he knows it's not a threat, but rather it is a realization that you cannot commit your life to such an arrangement, and you will leave out of respect for YOURSELF. Firmly tell him that he must address the problem, or you will be forced to make a decision, and your decision will put your needs first. You give him a chance to meet your needs, as he should, and if he does not, then you have no choice.

If he can lift himself out of his self pity for a moment, he will admit to himself that he needs help, and he will get it. If he does, support his efforts fully and with love. He may have addictions to pornography, masturbation, or no telling what, and he has to believe in himself in order to conquer them. If he really and honestly puts in the effort, don't react with disgust or shock if he tells you something disgusting or shocking, at least try not to. He seems to have something to confess, and it will not be easy for him.

But, if he refuses to address it, leave.

God bless you, and good luck.

Ageing Grace
23rd October 2009, 11:03 PM
Hello, sad lady :)

You've received excellent replies from two of the best people. I'm glad they've succeeded in geeing you up!

Can I just say, it's important that you make your case to your husband in terms of how YOU feel; what YOU want ... Show your anger & frustration - the deeper your passion, the better - but don't turn it against him.

I mean, keep your statements all about how you feel, NOT what he does (or doesn't) do. A good rule of thumb is to begin everything with "I feel ...", "I want ...", "I need ...", "I expected ...", "I'm sad about ...", "I'm frustrated that ..." and so on.

It sounds really simple but, believe me, it's better to practise this by writing a few things down first! It's too easy to start off with "I need ..." and then follow on straight away with "... YOU to do such-and-such". The idea is not to make him feel under attack, but to make him understand who you really are, have a re-think, and let you know where he's coming from.

We hope he has a re-think, anyway ;)

Good luck. Let us know!
AG

Dakereb
26th October 2009, 01:24 AM
Hello, sad lady :)

You've received excellent replies from two of the best people. I'm glad they've succeeded in geeing you up!

Can I just say, it's important that you make your case to your husband in terms of how YOU feel; what YOU want ... Show your anger & frustration - the deeper your passion, the better - but don't turn it against him.

I mean, keep your statements all about how you feel, NOT what he does (or doesn't) do. A good rule of thumb is to begin everything with "I feel ...", "I want ...", "I need ...", "I expected ...", "I'm sad about ...", "I'm frustrated that ..." and so on.

It sounds really simple but, believe me, it's better to practise this by writing a few things down first! It's too easy to start off with "I need ..." and then follow on straight away with "... YOU to do such-and-such". The idea is not to make him feel under attack, but to make him understand who you really are, have a re-think, and let you know where he's coming from.

We hope he has a re-think, anyway ;)

Good luck. Let us know!
AG

This is excellent advice. It is exactly what my marriage counselor told me. It makes a lot of difference.

sad
26th October 2009, 09:39 AM
thanks guys.... been really comforting to read thru ur opinions.... believe me im going thru hell even as i write this now... as i have managed to spend 2 MORE DAYS since i came to this forum without any change in my life!!!
i have tried to do some more bit of talking but in vain.... he just doesnt respond with anything concrete you know what i mean? at thats the worst thing! he just sits back and acknowledges that something is wrong ! i so wish i could know what could be wrong with him so as to not be able to have any 'feelings' ! i have always had guys who fancied me for my looks n stuff n here i have my husband whos so totally nt attracted to me ... tired off feeling miserable !!!

will give it another shot , taking inputs from u guys, on how to presnet it to him.... :(

1aokgal
27th October 2009, 02:15 AM
Sad,

I hate to tell you this but the problems that are factors there are very deep seated and will not alter overnight. It will take understanding and patience on your part to deal with behavior that even they may not be able to express in a concrete reason they have withdrawn. Please do take the suggestions above as they are the best you will ever find. Do find some additional emotional support for your needs.

Maybe that is counselling or it maybe it is prayer or it may be finding outlets that bring you some happiness. If alcohol or substance is involved it is likely beyond what you can work through without professional help.

I am very sorry for you and understand the emotions you must feel. These feelings run a range of emotions between anger and sadness. You must salvage who you are and nourish your soul. I can tell you something else. It is not about YOU. Don't feel you are wrong or not enough for this man..because likely it has nothing at all to do with you. It is a personal demon within the person you married. Perhaps he was a child raised in an indifferent home or he has an inability to let another really close for fear someone will control or hurt him.

Just give it your best shot to reach him. If you find this is unchanged for a reasonable time then you may need to consider separation. Don't stay and become part of the problem by accepting half of life.

Ageing Grace
27th October 2009, 02:56 AM
You must salvage who you are and nourish your soul. I can tell you something else. It is not about YOU.

Amen :)

Good luck, Sad. Love yourself.
AG x

Ace 54
28th October 2009, 04:56 AM
The only way I can cope with a sexless marriage is to satisfy myself. It doesnt stop me feeling regected, unatractive or lonly but it stops sex being the only thing on my mind from morning till night.
I have only been married 7 months. I am a young, healthy, fit, slim and atractive 54 and my husband in his sixties. I have always enjoyed a full and satisfying sex life. The closeness sex and intimacy bring is wonderful. Now I just feel old and discarded. I love him but need more than he gives me.
I know this dosnt help anyone. I just needed to "talk".

1aokgal
29th October 2009, 08:11 AM
Ace 54,

Don't talk to the walls. Talk to us , here, and there are many who care that another is sad. We do feel for anyone here with a lonely life.

My husband and I share everything but an intimate relationship. We have the same likes from music to foods. He is a decent person with no major vices but so detached from me I questioned always what is his problem. And attempt through the years to live a normal marital style has died in the discussion. My husband is years younger and physically fit. He has no problem...the problem is mine.

The last few years I don't discuss with him...to what avail? His job is primarily elsewhere and I see him a few days a month. One could say this would be ideal under the circumstances. He does not have to deal with my anger and I don't have to pretend that all is OK. It is sad for me to love him so much and not find a solution for this.

If I had known this about him beforehand, I would have run before giving him a phone number. There are many ways to get through the days with a spouse with no interest in intimacy, but acceptance is generally not one of them. Few of us just accept that we are happy with the deal as it goes down.
We are hostage in the marriage to anothers' desires...or lack thereof.


Please, NO posters who chime in here with how they only have sex once a week! This is about months and many years with no physical intimacy. That is a sexless marriage. Fix it? I doubt many of us will ever fix this problem because there are deep psychological reasons why one withdraws emotion and intimacy. It is the ultimate control of a valuable commodity. Perhaps this is a power move? Often even with years of therapy, little progress is made for a normal life with such an individual.

Good luck on night reading or TV watching or whatever one selects. I bet many here have a sleeping spouse in the next room. They sleep deep and rested. Not so a partner who wishes they were somewhere else. Yes, I understand how you feel.
Goodnight.

Mouss
4th November 2009, 10:37 AM
Actually my marriage isn't sexless, married for 30 years with grown children who have left, we have had relations regularly, every ten days or so.

But what I miss is any sign of tenderness outside of those moments, and even during those moments, to be exact.

The sex is good, engaged, with orgasms often on both sides, my wife keeps her eyes closed, is engaged in the act, following it to its conclusion, but there is no emotional sharing other than the shared and freely given sensations.

I feel that my wife loves me, but is not in love with me, a classic position I see from reading these posts.

She is happy to live with me, to cuddle up and sleep with her head on my shoulder, and to do things with me. But I miss hearing her say she loves me, I miss any idle contact that shows she loves me, sometimes she will take my hand in public, but it seems more like a conscious decision of what should be done rather than any desire. The same goes for lovemaking.

We have talked about it and she says it is touching that I seem to love her as much, with as much feeling, as when we first met, but that people grow in different ways. You can't argue with that. And I can't make her love me. She told me that she liked living with me, and gave me compliments about why, but they seemed to be reasons that you might want to keep a housemate, not a soulmate.

I do the little things one might advise: buy flowers, share in the housework, tell her she is beautiful, give her random touches and kisses, leave messages --- all in measure, trying not to overdo anything, not too much, not too little. But sometimes it frustrates me that it seems to be a one way street.

I am in love with my wife, and I am not looking for tenderness from anyone else. I miss it from her. We went to a marriage counselor once recently, and he said essentially that we are not kids anymore and each has to look at what they want out of the relationship and what they need and what they are willing to put up with, as if one draws up a new marriage contract, but looking at all the fine print this time around. So I thought about this, and did thought experiments, and decided that I don't want to leave her, that I would be miserable without her, and so I decided that I still want to show her that I am still in love with her even if these (adolescent) feelings are not reciprocated, that I would accept the fact that my wife loves me, and shows her love in different ways.

But between making an intellectual decision to accept things as they are, and living every day with someone who you knows loves you but is not in love with you, there is sometimes frustration and tension.

So I work on remaining present and not withdrawing into a shell, to continue my selfless overtures, I just wanted to use this forum to complain that it is hard sometimes. And sometimes, despite everything, I feel lonely.

/in response to some questions/ yes, we both still work, and might wife's work is tiring, but I am talking about behavior that is constant, whether rested or not. I have been trying to give her more space, too. She went off alone with friends for one week, I went off on a vacation project alone one week, but the other vacation weeks were spent together. One of the things that she told she feared once the kids left was long evenings alone just the two of us, feeling that we have said everything there is to say (which I don't feel). I know she has had a long period of adaptation to the "empty nest syndrome" and seems to have come out of that, but not on my side of the nest. I am not sure what she wants.

jellybean28
4th November 2009, 02:57 PM
Hi Mouss

Thanks for sharing. No need to think you're complaining just looking for some advice and that's what we're all here for.

By your post I think for some reason your wife seems to have shut down emotionally from you, she seems to be comfortable with your relationship as it is and unfortunatly for you are feeling lonely in the relationship. Are you and your wife both working? If could it just that she's really tired and things are too much effort for her at the moment? If you are both retired and do everything together, maybe she needs some space.?

You seem like a good, devoted husband who loves his wife very much. You said you've talked about things before, have you told her what it is you really need from her? What would make you feel really happy and asked her what it is that she really wants?

Could it be that she wants something different from you than you are already giving her?

If she's willing to talk I would do this, better than leaving things the way they are and ending up both of you in a sad and lonely marriage.

Hope that helps

1aokgal
5th November 2009, 02:41 AM
Mouss...

You posted in the "sexless marriage" area of the forum but yours is not that way. The regularity of intimacy you stated after 30 years of marriage which you stated puts you in the "atta boy" category. That is about the average for working folks and sounds as if the head on shoulder, caring stuff is fine. You seem to have a missing something..but it isn't the sex part. It sounds like your missing your youth and there is no magic fountain to bring that back.

We can't go back and get the thrill of new when we got breathless to see each other or have the real high of discovery in the intimate areas. The ideal thing is you are both alive and healthy and can do things together to have fun. It sounds like your FUN is short lived.

Maybe you need to drag away from the TV and go for a bike ride or walk together or walk the dog if you have one..talk about your day and enjoy some time engaged in each other. Perhaps you have the mid life crisis where the desire is to get out of the old and into the new, but you do care about your spouse and just wish you had the ZIP in the time you do have together.

You say you do buy flowers (for no reason), tell her she is lovely and you are glad you chose her but you still feel lonesome. If the ZIP is not there now perhaps it is because you have to put it there. Oh, you are so fortunate to be together. Many who loved have lost the other through death or divorce and have not made the 30 years! Some us live with mates who seem like they live on another planet. That is a REAL sexless marriage. Your relationship seems like a calm ship. Do you miss the drama of MAYBE, or the turmoil of a spouse who may have a secret life? See the glass as half full...not half empty. Many would love to have a calm, sane relationship.

Spice things up for both of you. If you both are heftier..go join a health club together or rec center or get it off so you will feel more attractive...and like the younger people you were. Take a dance course..play monopoly instead of watching TV, which is so detached. Spend a weekend in a hotel or getaway to a nice place. Make a game of answering questions about each other as favorite foods, favorite music, colors, etc. Engage in the getting to know each other. There is nothing "sexless" about your union, it is just stagnant. That can be treated like a cut knee with a small bandaid. Most of us would love to have your little problem.

You should be congratulated for caring about the person you are married to and renew your zest to make it happy for the next years.

Mouss
5th November 2009, 08:57 AM
1aokgal

Thanks for this message. I had realized that I was complaining about the quality of the food in a restaurant to some people who were trying to deal with people starving, and I was happy to read a reasoned response rather than outright rebuff.

Your message about the glass half full is right. Thanks.

I will try another thought experiment: I will try to imagine myself a widower, and then look at any of the attention I get through those eyes. I suspect that the simplest things will then seem miraculous.

Thank you for shaking my shoulders, and the slap on the cheek. You have really helped.

1aokgal
6th November 2009, 05:18 AM
Dearest Mouss...

A slap on the cheek was not the intent..just a nudge in the ribs to remind you that sexual excitement is a lot about FUN. Marital sex for many gets dull with the same bedroom, the same approach and then there is that person we see in the mirror...ourselves. That is not quite the same person we remember from 30 years ago. It is hard to make peace with our own dissatisfaction, right?

Takes a whole lot of work to get it on with excitement when the scene is the same..and dull. Go hang out at a motel once in a while or consider making out in the car (under safe conditions) of course. I assure you the zest comes. Meet her in a pub and play the stranger scene. She dresses a bit ZESTY and you pick her up. No conversation at all about the kids, the house, the bills or reality. Darn..that can feel really racey..and fun.

Bet she will be really eager to do the play acting and maybe add some other elements you have not brought in lately. You don't need to change partners..just change location and technique. Maybe splurge and the two of you book his and her massages and then go to the pub for a few dim lit hours. Leave your responsibilities and all problems behind. See her as you saw her then. Some of us would give the world to be in your shoes.

You are right. The kitchen closed in some restaurants here for all time. I give you a hug and an atta boy for your desire to be the lover boy you used to be. You don't need Viagara..you just need some ZIP in the routine.

Dakereb
17th November 2009, 04:08 AM
Mouss, care to trade? Just kidding, best of luck to you.

Well, our counselor requested to have a session with my wife, alone. This could get ugly. For those not familiar with my situation, my wife and I have not had sex for several years. I've been going to a counselor and have learned a lot. I've made great progress in addressing my contributions to the problem, and my wife has noticed. I'm much more engaged and much slower to show frustration.

My wife has gone with me to a few sessions, and the last one was a stunner. The counselor (a woman) pretty much laid it on the line to my wife: she is at least half the problem, and she must put as much effort into fixing this as I have. She told my wife that she should consider going to a ob/gyn, and bringing me, the dear husband, along with her to ask questions. I am to ask about whether my wife has any physical problems that would preclude sex, and tell the doctor that my wife has no sex drive. The doctor would then run a few tests, then recommend a sex therapist. She was very direct with my wife, telling her that she really should do all this.

Well, my wife and I discussed it later, and I was told that she will not, for any reason, see a sex therapist. She thinks she can do this without help. It's not that she's not willing to have sex, she just thinks she can work back into it on her own.

BUT, she also told me that the only reason she would have sex with me is to keep me from filing for divorce. She does not love me and does not feel emotional attachment to me. She is trying to get that feeling back, but she refuses to delve into the past to learn what caused it to disappear. She wants to just "create a new image" of me "going forward." Problem is, whenever I say something a little wrong, no matter the intent, she goes off on me. The old issues are still there.

Her session alone with the counselor will be confrontational, I am sure.

1aokgal
18th November 2009, 08:15 AM
Dakereb....

If I were in your shoes..and I am not a man...I would have a hard time to get it on with someone who not only doesn't desire me but she doesn't seem to even like me.

I can picture her reading the newspaper while you engage. That is not a pretty thought.
Sounds right? She feels she is blackmailed to agree with the issues.
Who needs it that bad? Sorry, Dakereb, I know your religious convictions, BUT maybe it is time you separated. Either she reevaluates or not! If not, who needs that painful day to day?

The woman is a shell going through the movements of a real woman.
I may have finally just given it up. He works out of the city. I don't see that changing.
A few days a month? I see the mailman here more than him.

Dakereb
19th November 2009, 03:50 AM
I hear ya, 1aok. I would not have sex with her if she is doing it just because she must. That description of her reading the newspaper during sex, it had gotten almost that bad. Words I heard more than once: "Are you done yet?" Just lovely, don't you think? Yes, dear, I'm done here. I'll just take care of the final touches myself, don't mind me. I guess it's just as well we haven't had sex in so many years.

We have so many financial and personal entanglements, so it seems we'll just have to separate but stay married. I guess the idea of a real marriage is often not attainable by many, and that explains the mistresses you hear about. I see men with marriages much better than mine fall to a mistress, and I think, how could they? But for me, it may yet be the only realistic option. Obviously, it's not a compromise I make lightly. My morals stop me, but I am only human. Forgiveness is all I can hope for, because perfect fidelity in this lousy situation is more than I can deliver.

Right now we are dealing with a rebellious teenage daughter, and she so very much needs her father. I've been better able to talk to her than my wife has been, and I have made much progress. But it's sapping me. It is such an emotional drain. I need, something. I need an emotional recharge. Instead of my marriage being that source of emotional sustenance, it's an additional drain.

My wife has softened toward me considerably. That had been giving me hope. But the basic, fundamental foundation, love based on respect, is missing, and seems it always will be. It never really was there, so there is no real reason to expect it now.

1aokgal
2nd December 2009, 05:39 AM
Dear Dakereb..
Sorry I have been away from posting for awhile. It is true I live life in a quiet desperation under the activites where I function well and do all the necessary things. He is always polite to me and considerate. Tells me many times how nice I look and that he loves me. What an empty shell is this pretender.
He mourns his father who died two years agoand he and his wife were joined ina really passionate marriage for 50 years. I can't help but wonder what was left off in his gene package and thought processes. I keep the peace and bake the bread. There are many who consider me both talented and attractive and believe we have a good marriage. I built the facade so well I almost believe the hype myself!

December, and 17 years with no sex within this marriage. I cannot think what I lost here. To have missed the closeness and passion that one has in a normal marriage. Too many intrastructures are in place and for us it is too late. While I can go about the normal things as I do, I can also imagine a scene where a woman so treated would attack and hit back for every day of life that was wasted.

Such a nice well bred woman..who could imagine that brews under the skin? Certainly..that is not healthy to suppress such emotion. Maybe pillow punching is in order?
Dakereb, there have to be many marriages like ours. I just thought i was such a prize catch a man would want to be with me. A real man anyway.

altheaespigar
2nd December 2009, 07:57 AM
I guess you have just to stand by your husband. After all, marriage is not about having sex. You can still shower your husband with affectionate kisses. =)

Dakereb
2nd December 2009, 04:21 PM
Well, altheaespigar, marriage is about emotional commitment. Sex is an important expression of that. Lack of sex is a lack of emotional commitment. Cutting sex off from your spouse is sending a message, and it's not a good one. If the one forcing abstinence refuses to discuss it, that person is putting him or herself above the needs of the spouse. Deep problems obviously exist.

1oakgal, I feel that your attempts at contentment are falling short for you. Any feathers left in that pillow? Don't let the anger define who you are.

My wife and I went to a counseling session together yesterday. She spoke first, describing little things I do that she sees as self-centered. I patiently waited, I did not interrupt her. When I had my opportunity to speak, I pretty much let her have it. I spoke about all the time that has passed, the patience I've demonstrated, and the extra effort I have been putting into making things right. I told her how I resent the fact that, instead of seeing my actions and appreciating the commitment they represent, she takes a small, insignificant verbal gaffe, not even a gaffe but a misunderstanding of what I said, and uses that to judge me. I let her know that I feel hurt, angry, and frustrated that all my actions, which indeed speak louder than words, are ignored. She had said earlier in the week that my family is uncultured and embarrass her. I told her that I know she sees my family in me, and that she is saying that I embarrass her. I told her I never want to hear her say that again. Then I just broke down. I could not speak after that.

There's more. I'll post later.

Dakereb
3rd December 2009, 03:02 AM
The counselor gave my wife a CD to listen to. We listened to the first part of it together today. It discusses how couples fall into patterns, destructive patterns, and how to recognize those patterns. It talked about how one member of the couple can step up and be the better of the two by seeking to better themselves, regardless of action or reaction of the other, and how this will lead to an improvement in the relationship. The narrator discussed how it is almost always the woman, 98% of the time, that seeks marriage counseling. My wife listened, even took notes. She recognized that I am the better half. But even then, she simply said that she just does not feel anything for me at all. She has not felt anything for me for over a decade. She likes me, and she regards me as the closest of friends, but there is no affection. She is fine with that. She is willing to learn to have sex with me, but she said there just cannot be an emotional connection of the sort I desire.

I do not think that sex as a favor will last. If she does not really want it, and it is only to satisfy my need for it, then it will quickly feel like a chore and she will soon try to avoid it. She reluctantly agreed with that.

So, in spite of all my effort, blood, sweat, tears, anxiety, and praying, as far as I can see, it's just over. We're done.

Am I asking too much? Is it wrong for me to want an emotional partner, a lover, not just someone who sometimes will have sex with me? The way she puts it, she is just happy as a clam with it as it is. I would be the one to initiate a separation or divorce. I think about it and wonder, am I just an idealistic dreamer? Should I just accept it as it is? I do not want to have sex with her if she is just doing it as an obligation. I want her to want to have sex with me. She says women don't really like sex anyway, so she's not abnormal. Is that really true? Maybe they do not crave it the way men do, but don't women want sex as a confirmation that the man still finds them desirable? Wouldn't a woman wonder what is wrong if the man stopped wanting sex with her? Isn't that what this forum is about? My wife thinks women feel relief when the man stops wanting sex.

Am I really that far out in left field?

sohurt22
4th December 2009, 05:13 AM
I am a woman who loves sex married to a man who doesn't. I do need to feel desireable. Its heartbreaking to be with someone who isn't attracted to you and who doesn't have an emotional attachment to you. This is something that I have tried to understand about my husband for 10 years. He finally told me that he doesn't think that he can ever love me the way I love him. He has no passion for me. When I asked him if he considered us lovers he said that word made him think of people who are having affairs, so no he doesn't think of us this way.

I have lost weight thinking that it was my physical appearance that turned him off. It didn't work. It actually made me feel worse! I feel worthless, ugly, regected, empty, and so many other things. I used to be a very confident person. Now I'm just a submissive wife and I get walked on by my husband.

Almost 2 years ago my husband told me that he feared I would have an affair on him and it would be all his fault yet he did nothing to try to make it better. I am finally at a point where I realized that I can't make him love me. Where I am going from here I'm not sure, but my heart breaks everyday.

I feel for everyone who is just dying to be loved and wanted.

1aokgal
4th December 2009, 05:44 AM
Sorry..wrong, silly answer above! Yes, marriage IS about having sex. It is the emotional, physical and spiritual bond that holds the man and woman into a marriage which was sanctioned/blessed by God. It is this union which brings children and comfots both into the twilight years. one cannot bury someone in kisses who turns away.

There are marriages where a partner is ill or physically disabled and they manage to have some sexual component. When a marriage is as th eone above it is very sad because there is still time for this woman to realize that the love is just not there maybe it never was. There fore it is not he sex whichis a problem, it is the heart of the partner which has turned to stone. That marriage has no chance and this man is clear in his meaning.The marriage is invalid spiritually and is not worth to salvage .

In the case Of Dakereb, the wife makes a surface gesture to go to counselling. She is under duress and will never be a willing partner who desires to be with her husband. I feel she finds the whole thing repulsive. The marriage is not worth salvaging. Even at that time of life a man still has the opportunity to live and love as he was meant to do.

In the "luck of the draw" it seems those in this predictament got a short straw. No luck at all!

Dakereb
5th January 2010, 03:25 AM
Well, we had sex.

My wife decided, for my birthday, she would agree to sex. She told me a few days ahead of time, then when the planned evening came, she went into the bedroom, lit several candles, turned the radio on romantic music, changed into a negligee, then invited me in. She planned it. I was impressed!

So, we halting move along, and it soon becomes apparent that I would have to take the initiative. She would was "willing" to go all the way, but it was up to me to actually do it. I took it slow, kissing, caressing, hoping to get her to get a little engaged in it. Best I got was her kissing back, which has never been a problem, she loves kissing. But beyond that, she just laid there and let me do what I needed to do, so to speak.

Now I'm confused. She obviously went through a lot of trouble, even buying the negligee, but when it got to the actual act, she was very passive. I want sex, but I don't want to feel like I am imposing it on her. I mentioned it delicately a little later, and she said she was doing what she thought she needed to do to stay married.

I don't think she sees it as particularly manipulative, because she really feels she is sacrificing. She'd still rather not have sex, but she's willing to do it because she knows I want it, and she knows I will leave if I don't get it. But it's so much deeper. I want the mutual exchange of pleasure, the joy of both giving to each other at the same time. I want to know she is enjoying it, not tolerating it.

That's obviously being idealistic, at least as it applies to this relationship. Now I have to decide, is this compromise good enough? She said she'd be willing to start with once a month, and increase frequency from there. It's just that, well, it's not very sensual to have sex with someone who just lays there, waiting for it to be over. She did not sigh and ask if I'm done yet, but she used to, and it's just a matter of time before she does so again.

We go talk to the counselor tomorrow. It will be a fun discussion!

Happy New Year to you all. May God bless you with health, happiness and prosperity.

1aokgal
5th January 2010, 08:13 AM
Dearest Dakereb...

My heart aches for you to know a love that is given and returned. Empty, joyless coupling on schedule is the most demeaning act I have heard about lately. You would get more out of a hand and paper cup honestly. Forgive me to be graphic. You are married to the wrong woman.
All the counselling in the world won't change a cold fish into a partner who loves you and loves to be with you.

Now let me tell you what happens now on my end. I am a woman who loves the gusto of love and loving. Few holds barred with my partner. I love my husband of 29 years. He is a great companion and a sweet decent man with a keen mind and a good looking man who kept his hair and body in good condition. He just has refused to have sex with his wife for the last 17 years.

I did everything through that time. I took Flamenco dancing, lost weight, had some cosmetic surgery, kept myself vibrant and attractive enough to get pick-up invites at the grocery store by much younger men. I pleaded, entreated, cried, screamed, stomped off in anger, threatened to take a lover..threw him out of the bedroom for two years so I did not have to be insulted in my own bed. What have I not done?

I did not leave him to separate, take a lover or stop loving him passionately and desperately. Dear God, what pain is this to love another who can't function to love one back. Is he paralyzed or impotent? No, he evidently thinks MB or porn was the best option. I settled for a solo life all these years as his business worked better if he was there...only was here a few days a month.

He was just diagnosed with Cancer. A serious and perhaps terminal Cancer as I spoke with his doctor today. Today was yet more bad news. Tomorrow we get results of a test that may sum it up how long.... how progressed. I cannot get the courage together to face losing the man. It seems I lost him, or most of him, all these years ago. My heart is broken for him.

For what we lost all those years..... in the moments we did not have.....the moments not shared....the secrets not spoken.....the breaths not taken... ..the twining of fingers as lovers do in the closest moments. I lost it all and it will never be.

I cannot bring it forth, what I need to know I lost all that ....the dreams....the hopes a lover has for the other. I couldn't tell him how much he means to me or how I love his good mind and kind ways .

When I was ill years ago....he came quietly into my hospital room, before work about 4AM, an sat with me in the dim light from the door. It was so much trouble to do that before he began his day just to give me a few pats and assurance he was there. It was the kindest moment, as so many moments that he concerned himself for me.

I plan to go tomorrow and buy him a new gold wedding band and have it engraved. It is the third ring he has bent and worn thin, that he now wears. He will be here on the weekend. I will get him a fine red and black plaid wool neck muffler to replace the one he lost on Sunday. Then I will find him a great cap, like one he admired on another, as he never wears hats. This one looks like the ones they wear in Europe. He is a handsome man and that hat is good for a brisk day.

What can I give him that he will like as well? A chain to hang the little token his sister, who died a few months ago, gave him. She was 49, so that family has another tragedy. If you can spare the time , Please say a prayer for my beloved husband, Peter. Perhaps we will have mercy and another chance to relive some better years.

Dakereb, tell your wife, so long as you both live you might find each other yet. If she cares nothing for that, please leave......leave now, and don't look back over your shoulder. Find a woman who lost a husband and one who still has passion and love to give and life will be full for you.
My mother died Dec. 12th before Xmas. Our plan was to go for the burial this weekend but I don't think we can go now. We drove up to be with her the day before she died and got there at 9AM. She died at 6AM before we got there. So this is a sad time.
Some days we never can relive or find again. Please find yours now.

Dakereb
6th January 2010, 04:34 PM
1aok, I have little time to post now, but I wanted to quickly drop a note here to express my sympathy for your husband, you, and your family. Is your father still living? I'll keep you all in my prayers.

1aokgal
6th January 2010, 07:34 PM
Hi Dakereb...

Thank you for your note. We got a huge ray of hope with test results to show the Cancer is localized. It is a life altering surgery, but for now he will have survival chance. That is good news. We elected he should go to a famous Cancer treatment center 200 miles away which is logistics problem for me with animals and home, but best for him.

Ageing Grace
6th January 2010, 10:25 PM
*1aok*, I'm delighted to hear there's hope for your part-time husband :) As a person with a life of his own, we wish him the best health and the fullest opportunities that can be achieved. I know you'll be there for him, and he will appreciate it.

For yourself: this is a time of disruption for you. The 'constants' are changing, so will you change in response? I hope so! I'd like to think of you dancing a flamenco barefoot: feeling more free; more connected; more enlivened than your life has allowed, until now.

*Dakereb* - Man, I really understand the additional complications your birthday treat brought you! After your tentative explorations into discovering the 'real you' - and your endless, forgiving, tolerance & patience in your marriage ... it must have felt something like the booby prize. Ouch!

I'm going to ask you to consider - just consider - the possibility that this development might NOT pan out the way you expect. I can, I think put myself in your wife's shoes the night of your birthday. She's so scared, she hasn't felt like a "Sensual Woman" for decades - if ever. She's heard what was said in your counselling sessions, and she's taken advice on helping her mood, with the candles and so on. Her hopes were probably high, and so - I imagine - were her nerves. Nothing could have made that event 'perfect' unless the two of you had mutated into characters from a romance novel ;)

Not to worry.

It reminds me, a little, of the night I didn't lose my virginity. He was the right boy, it was the right time ... but our imaginings of how it would happen were so disparate, we both gave up (with much embarrassed giggling). It didn't happen. Now I'm 40 years older and know so much more about human nature, sexuality & emotions, I could offer the teenage Grace good counsel!

Dakereb, you can trash this huge advance and you're in danger of doing so. You've decided her effort wasn't "good enough". You've anticipated a repeat of previous disappointments. This is unfair. Do you still want a chance of the *better* marriage, for both of you?

If yes, please appreciate what she did. Forget about what you missed: love what she did. She did it for you, yes - and she also did it in hope, for herself. Else, why the candles and stuff??

The mind and body are interdependent - very often, when the mind inhibits the body, the body can free the mind. This is, crudely summarised, the theory behind Chinese medicine and homeopathy! *Doing* sex can make you *want* sex. If that happens, the increased intimacy can filter through to your relationship.

Diss her efforts, and you'll lose what you've pined for - your wife, sensual and receptive, loving you in body and mind. Don't punish her for what's gone before. Treat her, more, like a nervous virgin.

You've been a long time without experience, D. Wouldn't you like to refresh your understanding of gentle, generous lovemaking? Forget about disappointment. Your lovely wife has made herself, finally, available. She doesn't know what to expect but has a shy hope (like me, that first time that never happened). Do some reading, if it helps. Here's a place to start:
http://www.skydancer.org.uk/yoni

Your birthday gift was something fragile & precious :)


Good luck.

Ageing Grace
6th January 2010, 11:00 PM
Added: She loves to kiss. She's not unusual. Most women love to kiss. The best lovemaking, for a woman, feels like one long kiss. With love and eye contact. And endless kissing.

SallyBee
7th January 2010, 02:57 AM
I have found it extremely helpful reading the posts on this forum and I share a lot of the feelings and experiences outlined. I wonder if I could seek your advice on my marriage, which can fairly be described as a sexless marriage.

I have been with my husband since 1997 and we got married in late 2003. We had what I thought was an okay sex life at the beginning of the relationship (he was my first boyfriend, I enjoyed it and I assumed he did too, and I hoped it would improve further as I got more experience). In retrospect it had started to tail off after the first six months of the relationship but because of lack of experience on my part and also because of relatively limited opportunity (there were work circumstances which precluded us from living together on a permanent basis) I did not appreciate this at the time. Looking back, this was incredibly stupid of me.

We had sex on the wedding night, very much a seal the deal on his part, sex once in the first year of the marriage, once in the second and since then (four years) no sex. My husband never responded very well to attempts to initiate sex on my part. With what appears to be incredible naivety I did not make any issue of this in the first two years of the marriage. I think that there were two reasons for this, firstly, I was working very hard as we had a lot of financial expenses to meet and secondly I was on the anti-anxiety medication Seroxat (Paxil). I found it extremely difficult to come off this medication because of the withdrawal side-effects but (knowing that if I did not come off it this might create problems in any future pregnancy) managed it in 2005, went back on it for a period in 2006 and finally came off it in 2007.

On coming off the medication for the first time I became increasingly concerned about my husband's attitude toward sex. At this point I realised there was a problem and tried to be more active in initiating sex, trying to get him to discuss why he was so reluctant to have sex and so forth. This provoked a disastrous reaction. Around this time he started to socialise separately and go out alone both weekend nights and return quite late. At my friend's wedding in June of 2006, when annoyed with me about another matter, he told me that he was in love with somebody else, a French girl whom he had dated in his teens and with whom he had recently got back into contact. I did not take this particularly seriously at the time as I knew that any recent contact with this girl had been limited to one meeting and email.

However matters did not improve and came to a head in July 2008 when I tried to get some clear answers from him as to why he did not want to have sex with me (at this point he was not just not initiating sex, but refusing it, and had become very hostile generally). I asked him if he had contracted an STD from someone else. He told me no. He also volunteered that he was not gay, but that he was in love with some one else. I asked him was this person someone known to me, and he told me no, that she was a foreigner. He left and went home to his parents for some days, and I went to counselling. He did not participate in the counselling, but gave me to understand that he had made up about being in love with someone else because he was embarrassed talking about sexual problems.

I took him back - I loved him and couldn't bear to break up with him - at least without giving us time to work it out. For a year I was afraid to raise the issue of sex again. When I finally felt strong enough to raise the issue, in the summer of 2009, he told me that he just wasn't into me anymore, that he was very visual and he didn't find me attractive (he evaded the question of whether he had ever found me attractive). As far as I am aware (and I appreciate it is difficult to be completely objective in relation to this, particularly so in my case as I have suffered from body dysmorphic disorder in the past) I have not changed physically in any significant way since we met, and am reasonably attractive.

However as ever he backtracked on this subsequently, saying that he had felt pressured into answering in this way - although without providing any explanation for the difficulties with sex or indeed telling me that he currently loved me or found me attractive. Since then - no sex. I periodically raise the issue - he won't talk about it, walks out.

I should also mention that he appears to have (fairly harmless) email correspondence with a number of foreign ladies (the French girl mentioned above and others he has met at conferences abroad). He takes trips abroad occasionally on his own (which again appear to be harmless) but I have found an unopened condom in his washbag. Occasionally we used condoms in the (now very distant) past. He goes out with friends every Saturday night and will only change this for an important family event (his family). He is not encouraging as regards my accompanying him, and I have not pursued this. However I have not seen any other signs that he has been unfaithful. Nor have I been able to find any recent **** on his computer, although it is possible that he deletes it after use.

I am now 35 and I feel that I have been very stupid to allow myself to end up in this situation. The excuses are that I have been working very hard for the last 15 years to build up my career, have always lacked confidence (I suffered from body dysmorphic disorder for years, hence the medication) and of course that I loved him and probably still love him. In terms of common interests, views etc. we fit together very well. Physically, not so well unfortunately. The difficulty is that if things were good at the beginning it is difficult to leave all that behind.

The most hurtful things for me are:

(i) when people ask why we don't have children, he tells them that we are postponing a family to focus on our careers

(ii) watching TV, when he either remarks about an actress or film star that he would like to sleep with her or alternatively describes any actor resisting her advances as gay.

(iii) if he accidentally sees me partly dressed or (God forbid) completely undressed, the look which comes over his face is not pleasant

(iv) if I accidentally touch against him in bed, the way he pulls away

(v) lying in bed at night, feeling constant loneliness and sexual longing

(vi) the unanswered questions, the wasted years, and the fear he never really loved me at all.

Have any of you any idea what is going on here? Is there anything I can do or should I cut my losses and move on?

1aokgal
7th January 2010, 03:51 AM
AG...

Hit hit the nail right on again. A beginning is just that. Atry..nervous, awkward and scared. A door opening can be virginal and shy. Sex at the begiining wasn't much and it can be the beginning with a patient, tolerant, experienced and slow approach.

The word is easy does it and let one get into it. Better yet, agree no copulation, just bubble bath, massage and lots of lovely being together to get the thought moving. Like in th ebeginning you skirt the issue a long time.
She wants to please you that is for sure. Reward the efforts before you make decisions.

Dakereb
7th January 2010, 06:30 AM
Sally, I really feel for you. He is obviously suffering from some sort of sexual dysfunction. Men can end up inadvertently training themselves to respond sexually to the wrong things, such as pornography or the thrill of having sex with a relative stranger. The condom you found is a clue. He has to take ownership of the problem before any progress can be made. It can take years of therapy. Often the root of the problem is not directly sexual, so you may be able to approach the idea of talking to a therapist as being about other issues. This would likely not be a lie. Whatever the case, this is going to be a long, arduous journey, and he has to be willing.

AG and 1aok, thank you both for your input. My wife and I have talked a few times about it since, and I can assure you that she was not nervous. The purpose of the candles was to try to put hereself in the mood. She is working to overcome all the negative feelings she has held toward me for so long. We are learning to communicate better with each other, and she has gained much insight into the way I naturally think. Likewise, I have learned a huge amount about how she thinks. So now she has a small glimpse into me, and I into her, and the barriers we've built between ourselves are weakening. There is a scent of hope in the air. We are certainly not out of the woods, but we are heading in the right direction.

There has always been something in the back of my mind telling me to work harder at it, to not give up. God has been instilling in me some desire to keep trying. It may sound silly, but I had one of those Magic 8 Ball toys the other day, and, for grins, I asked of it a few questions. I asked if I would find a new wife. It answered, not likely. I asked if my marriage would survive. It answered yes. I went on like this for perhaps a dozen questions, and it ALWAYS answered this way. I am a technical sort, not at all superstitious. But this got my attention. It reaffirmed my belief that my conscience is being informed by God.

Back to the sex: my wife has told me that she is planning on doing this once a month for a while. She is hoping that this will help her re-establish her desire. I do love her, and am so happy to see her try to do this for me. I will certainly be gentle, and let her take things at her own pace, now that I see a willingness to move forward. For the first time in a very long time, I feel hope.

1aok, I am glad to hear that there is a bit of hope for your husband's cancer. I was once told I might have cancer. It was a false alarm, but I will never forget that wave of numbing dread that swept over me. I will keep praying for him, and for you.

Ageing Grace
7th January 2010, 10:33 AM
Hello, Sally. My heart goes out to you! I agree with Dakereb's reply, though not with his advice I'm afraid. You said your marriage was good in the beginning but it wasn't, was it? Weighing up a possible 10-15 years of therapy, which may or may not work, against fresh beginnings for you - I don't think I'd gamble. I'd take the fresh start.

Dakereb - thanks for your reply! I agree wholeheartedly with 1aokgal, too: shared sensual experiences, with a specific agreement of *no* sex this time, can work wonders (maybe fill in your month of waiting this way?) I'm not sure I believe her when she says she wasn't nervous; in any case, it would surely be best to proceed as if she were :)

All the best.
xx

SallyBee
7th January 2010, 11:41 AM
Thanks for both your comments.

The relationship was very good in the beginning - but not the marriage. The marriage has never been good as far as sex was concerned.

I don't really think that I can take waiting around for 15 years to have this problem sorted out.

On the other hand it is a big step to leave and I am afraid that I will not find someone else and will be on my own forever. I wonder whether or not half a loaf might be better than no bread. We get on pretty well outside the bedroom.

I would like children but have really given up hope of having them at this stage since even if I split up with him by the time I have met someone else I will be too old. I have very little dating experience and I am afraid that if I get involved in another relationship quickly I may end up in an even worse position. In addition, in my country it takes 4 years of living apart before a divorce can issue. Because of my previous problems with body dysmorphic disorder, I do not think that I am strong enough to bring up children alone as a single mother.

Dakereb
7th January 2010, 04:25 PM
AG, my wife told the counselor that she was not nervous, then confirmed it with me later. Also, during the session she did not seem nervous. I can say that my wife has, over the last year, become extremely honest with me, no longer afraid to tell me what she really thinks (big progress, I think!). If she were nervous, she would have said so. She is working on overcoming negative feelings toward me, borne of misunderstanding, poor communication on my part, and the fact that I had been an arrogant jerk when I was younger. We've discussed it all, and, as our counselor suggested, she is trying to "update my image" in her mind. She is really working at it, and I am so happy that she is. We both have a sensation that we've turned a corner on this. I see the stage being set for much better times ahead.

I'd like to add something to my post to Sally. It really sounds to me like your husband has misdirected his sexual impulses toward carnal titillation. His reactions to you when you bring up sex tell me that he knows his behavior is wrong, and he is ashamed of it. For many men, correcting this pattern, this habit, involves confronting that shame. For him to do this, he will have to tell you virtually everything he's done wrong, all the extramarital sex he's had, with whom, when, where. He has to put it out there in front of you, and that is a monumental emotional hurdle. His shame drives him to hide his behavior. The difficult part for you is to provide a safe environment for him to do this. Most women cannot do this, as the betrayals will hurt them too deeply. Often it must be done with a counselor present. This makes it even harder for the man, as he does not want to confess such things to any one person, much less so to two. But he must. Nothing will change until he does.

So your delimma is, stay or leave. Only you can answer that. You say you two get along well otherwise. That's good. But that will be tested. If he cannot bring himself to own his problem, even with your encouragement, you may have to leave. But if you two do go through a full airing out of the problem, and you find you forgive him and love him still, your marriage will end up stronger than you ever thought possible. You will both then know you are safe with each other, can be flawed, and still be accepted. And he will find that your love will counter his current self-loathing and lift that burden of worthlessness from his shoulders. It will be very difficult. You both will have to dig up strength you never knew you had, and you would have to find a way to love the sinner and hate the sin, separate the two.

For now, do not bring children into this. Also, know that children benefit greatly when they have a father. Intentionally having a child when you know you will be single is not in the best interest of the child.

Good luck, pray constantly.

1aokgal
7th January 2010, 06:53 PM
Hi Dakereb..

We all here know how to love another. Maybe as AG says, we put our interests so secondarily, they don't come into the mix. I am encouraged to hear that some of the tension in your relationship ..which seemed very hostile on both sides..to ease and smile at each other. It is sad to desire to be close to someone and be rebuffed at every point.

Sally, sorry not to have better advice for you. It seems your fear of the world to forge ahead on your own, will mean you will "make do" with a nothing life with a secretive stranger. That means your confidence and ability to function and feel better about yourself will be even more negative.

Sometimes my take on things, is that partners like us, naturally attract. One who is selfless to love another in an uncomplicated way is grateful for small gestures in return. Maybe we have shattered childhoods and just long to be appreciated. We don't make demands on our lovers so we slide easily into that status quo of just co-existing as best we can. They give little, and we give a lot. Maybe we are happy just to love. Then as time goes along and the rebuffs increase, we internalize that the blame HAS to be our fault because we are deficient people. How can another love love us? Maybe even a childhood was so diasastrous that we have little experience to be valued. We don't love ourselves and have "dysmorphic ideas" about our worth.

Whether we go or stay in such a relationship, we must detach our needs from theirs. We have to find some happiness and increase our confidence. That is just for the sheer joy of not feeling miserable day to day. I hope that means a pursuit... as going to school or train to improve or become self sufficient or in artisitic expression, which nourishes the soul. I made a good business and other friends and found a world of sorts there. I also liked me because I found talent where I thought there was none. That takes courage to explore ones' abilies.
So I hope you will think beyond this problem and what you can do to become more confident, attractive or cabable about your separate identity. Counselling is a good thought or perhaps a group or church where you can find support and outlets. Good luck.

SallyBee
7th January 2010, 09:19 PM
1aokgirl I forgot to make clear in my previous post how much I appreciate you taking the trouble to reply to my post in circumstances where your husband is so ill. I am glad to hear that the cancer was not as serious as initially thought. Both my parents were diagnosed with cancer some years ago (my father with relatively late-stage prostrate cancer) and both have responded to radiation treatment. They were forced to change their lifestyles as a result of the cancer and are now happier and more relaxed than before. I wish you and your husband all the best and will keep you both in my thoughts.

1aokgal
8th January 2010, 02:32 AM
Dear Sallybee...
Thank you for your kind wishes. It is my pleasure if anything I can say will lighten your life. Your reassurance about good prognosis in my husbands' case is appreciated. You call this problem a dysmorphic condition and I guess i would call it the lack of self love and self acceptance that many of us carry.

I would like to say more but my husband has just gotten home from another city where he works. He has a consult with surgeon tomorrow, locally, but will be going back monday to Phila and the large cancer treamtent center there.
Hard logistically for me 200 miles away but best for him. We will talk more. Take each day one at a time. You sound like a sensible smart lady and with her feet firmly planted. God will care for you and just think how you can find your happy spot inside yourself. For me..it is my creativity and animals.

SallyBee
8th January 2010, 07:46 PM
Sohurt - you seem to be in a very similar position to me. At least your husband feels some guilt/concern at the possibility of losing you. I

I think my husband would be relieved to find someone to have an affair with me, if only because this would give him the moral high ground. I have discussed divorce with him and all he says is that he'll go along with whatever I want, effectively putting the burden on me to end a marriage that he refuses to participate in. Then he gets worried about losing his comfortable home and lifestyle and backtracks a little - though not to the point of saying he finds me attractive, or that he will ever have sex with me again.

I am away at present and I asked him straight out over the phone last night, what was it? Was he gay- no. Was he having affairs - no. Was there something wrong with me - no. Was he interested in me - no. Would he ever have sex with me - no. Would he ever have children with me - no. I then said - thank you for giving me a straight answer at last, and I hung up. He then rang back to say that I had boxed him into a corner. I asked him again - would he ever have sex with me again - he'll think about it. Would he ever have children with me - he'll think about it. I asked him how long it would take for him to think about it (I have had this conversation before, and have effectively been waiting for 4 years for him to think about it) - he said he didn't know. I don't like having to raise these issues in a phone conversation but if I were to do so in person he would walk off - I know from experience. It is very difficult.

Dakereb
8th January 2010, 10:16 PM
Sally, what got my wife to seriously reconsider her "no sex" position was that she was completely sure I would leave if she did not.

SallyBee
9th January 2010, 01:49 AM
Dakereb

Thanks for your response. The idea of my husband having sex with me to stop me from leaving does not exactly fill me with enthusiasm for two reasons, firstly because if he doesn't find me attractive I don't think he'd be able to perform under those circumstances and it would all end in tears, secondly because as a woman part of the fun of sex is knowing that the man is turned on by you (I'm sure this is important for men also but it is particularly important for women and definitely for me). I think your situation is different because of the above and also because I know from my own experience and those of my friends that a woman who is not necessarily into sex to begin with in a relationship can learn to enjoy it, particularly as she gets into her 30s, and often the more (consensual) practice the better so I would certainly advise you to press on in that regard. I don't think it works quite in the same way for 38 year old men who wince at the sight of their wife's naked body. I don't really see any solution to my relationship to be honest, perhaps I would feel different if my husband were to be honest with me as I am a forgiving person but unfortunately I am a very proud person also and the humiliation of this is hard to get past.

Dakereb
9th January 2010, 03:38 AM
I can understand how his rejection hurts your self-esteem and makes you feel that he does not find you attractive. You mention that a woman can learn to enjoy sex, but men who wince at the sight of their wife's body probably cannot get over that. As a man, I can tell you that it is possible to overcome this, but it's not at all easy. The problem is, he has associated sexual release with things other than you. He says he has had no affair, but I suspect he has found some avenue for sexual release. The only way I know of for him to learn to respond to you sexually is for him to completely abstain from sex for a few months (very very difficult for a man), then to begin to engage in sexual touching with you. During that time, he would have to learn to get close to you emotionally, on a deep level, to build trust between you. Old perceptions would have to fall, replaced by new, more positive images. It would take a long time, and it would only work if he wants it to.

I suspect he does not want it enough to go through the struggle. The fact is, however, this problem will stay with him forever until he does, either with you, or with his next lover. The pattern he established with you will repeat itself with the next woman. It's almost a certainty.

Men do respond to visual stimuli, and we are bombarded with images of very attractive women all the time, every day. Often, men get caught up in the desire for those images of perfection, and begin to engage in sexual acts with those images in mind. Soon, it becomes very difficult to respond sexually to anything else. The behavior is learned, and reinforced every time a man engages in the fantasy. It's easy to fall into this. Reality is, no woman is as physically perfect as these images. We all have flaws. As I mentioned above, a man can retrain himself to respond to his real life lover, but it takes a lot of discipline. He has to learn to respond sexually to the emotional closeness, the love, warmth and acceptance of the wife, not to her physical attributes. Men who fail to do this are doomed to misery.

I hope I'm not too far off base. I'm not trying to convince you to stick it out. The problem is his, not yours, and you should not have to spend your life hoping he'll come to his senses. My comment about my wife waking up to the fact that I would indeed leave was just meant to point out that it will likely take a shock like that to get him thinking about his future. If I were you, with no children, no other entanglements with him, I would certainly leave. It may be the best thing you can do not just for yourself, but for him.

jellybean28
9th January 2010, 06:19 AM
Dakerub

Thanks for that insight into what goes on in a man's think when it comes to sex, it explains alot.
My ExH was never in the bedroom emotionally after about the first 10yrs of our marriage.

We had to do things just so, no music, no talking in the lead up or after sex, it was all very clinical and emotionless, and often he wanted us to watch porn before we had sex, when I tried to do something different that would become our routine for the next couple of months, I also spent a lot of effort trying to please and satisfy him, which at times made me feel uncomfortable, he often liked me to dress in a slutish manner or touch me in public, or if he thought we were being watched.

I must admit, it was hard for me to desire him, when most nights when he was home, he would lay on the lounge watching TV with his hand down his pants, he was oblivious that our teenage children had also noticed as they came in and out. I ended up having to tell him that it made us uncomfortable and the kids were really embarrassed, so he only did it when they wern't around.
Tell me is it normal for a man to constantly hang on to his tackle?

spiderman
9th January 2010, 12:22 PM
erm I dont always hang onto my tackle and im a very sexual person Gillian ?

Lee

Ageing Grace
9th January 2010, 03:14 PM
We had to do things just so, no music, no talking in the lead up or after sex, it was all very clinical and emotionless

Oh, god, how awful for you Gillian :(

I quite see why thought your ex has Asperger's and, from what you've written, tend to think you may be right.

Afaik - and it has been researched! - all men have got the instinct to hang on to their tackle! They have to learn it's not socially acceptable. When I helped out in a centre for people with very low IQ, I had to get used to the fact that most of the men were either playing with their willies or wanking most of the time :eek:
Many autistic men tend to do it, too, until it gets through to them that other people find it revolting.

While I was empathising your quote above, I recalled how my ex took to putting a pillow over his head during sex. I thought maybe he was trying out that partial asphyxiation thing (I was so desperate I actually *hoped* he was!!) but it soon became obvious he'd do anything rather than look at me while we made love :(

As somebody said, it's important for a woman to feel desired. That crushed me.

AG

SallyBee
9th January 2010, 03:29 PM
Dakereb - thanks for your very well-considered and thoughtful reply.

However even the best-case scenario you outline involves him "getting past" my physical attributes, not coming to like them, as mentioned above the idea of someone having sex with me "in spite of" my physical attributes is not a pleasant one and no sex is almost preferable.

What I can't understand is why he went out with me and continued to go out with me and marry me despite finding me so physically unattractive - I haven't really changed for the worse since we started going out.

I appreciate that porn may have been a contributory factor (as mentioned above, I don't know, but would not be surprised at, porn use) but he was already familiar with the internet before we went out together and was 25/6 when we got together so surely did not just take up porn after that age. He has 4 brothers so I am sure saw more than his share of porn magazines growing up. He saw me naked quite early on in the relationship and it did not put him off then.

Ageing Grace
9th January 2010, 04:06 PM
Sally, my love, he married you because you didn't insist on sex.

You wrote: "We had sex on the wedding night, very much a seal the deal on his part, sex once in the first year of the marriage, once in the second and since then (four years) no sex. My husband never responded very well to attempts to initiate sex on my part."

Your man has got some issues around his sexuality - I don't know what, but he had them long before you married. Some people are asexual. Some are gay but won't admit it to themselves. Some have sexual weirdnesses originating from childhood events. We can't answer the question "Why?".

We can, however, know that this problem exists between you. So the only thing for you to decide is whether you're content to continue like this (and you have said you're not), renegotiate your marriage or quit.

1aokgal
9th January 2010, 07:51 PM
Dear All...

It is indeed sad to read how disparate are the desires of a partner to be loved, appreciated and found attractive and a mate who meets their own needs.
One who is emotionally unavailable and sex is at best a dim memory for the partner. Dakereb, thanks for your description of the problem that afflicts many of these marriages where a woman is on the outside and the man makes decisions when and IF there is ever intimacy.

My husband always complimented my appearance, skills and talents. He spoke glowingly to others of the value in his wife. There was just NO sex of any kind for 17 years because the man would push me away if I came close. He DID hold my hand and look in my eyes across a table when we went out. He opened doors and cooked for me. Today he is ill and faces a life altering illness. The prognosis is guarded.

This morning my husband patted for me to sit on his lap and said let me hold you. He said he was afraid and wanted a few minutes to be close to me. I am afraid too and sad he now reaches out
for warmth and affection and lost so much time in past. He is a good man and I feel sorry for him. I am also afraid he may not survive. I might then look back and see the lost years and mourn for that time. I am sorry to say it is difficult to be close to someone who is like a stranger to me. Do I love him? Yes, terribly still.

Dakereb
10th January 2010, 02:10 AM
Sally, it is not about his getting used to having sex with you in spite of your appearance. It's about him emphasizing the positive qualities about you and your shared relationship, and letting that drive his desire to have sex with you. With that in control, he will come to like your physical appearance, too, as it will become associated with all your other qualities. It will represent a part of you as a whole. I appreciate the fact that you would much rather have someone who finds you physically attractive right up front, and that's reasonable. It's just that your husband right now is not that man.

You say that he did see you nude early on in your relationship, and it did not dissuade him from marrying you. It seems to me that it is not your appearance at all that is at the root of the problem.

As you may have figured out by now, I am sexually attracted to my wife. I am so because I love her, and am emotionally close to her (much more so now than in the recent past). Honestly, she would not be considered particularly attractive physically by most men. But regardless, she is attractive to ME. When she are I are talking, and she is showing me understanding, acceptance and compassion, I find myself involuntarily becoming aroused. Physical beauty is fleeting. Any guy who has conditioned himself to respond only to physical beauty is doomed to a miserable existence. Inversely, it is also true that physical beauty alone is not enough to keep a decent man. A real, mature sexual relationship, one that will stand the test of time, is more emotional that physical. Your husband may not be mature enough to get past the purely physical stimulation he likely indulges in. Unfortunately, many men get stuck in that state of arrested development, and never learn to cultivate, appreciate, and sexually respond to a deeper relationship. Fortunately, not every guy is cut from that cloth; in fact, it seems those more prone to addictions are most likely to fall into this destructive pattern. I hope I'm making some sense here. It's not easy to put this concept into words in such a way as to convey it accurately.

Wow, Gillian, he would run around the house all day with his "hand on his tackle"? I have to say, that's a memorable turn of a phrase! In a word, NO, that's not at all normal. As AG alluded to, this represents an extraordinarily immature state of emotional development. Little boy babies tend to hang on to themselves like that, and sometimes mothers must teach them to let go of it, but a grown man doing this in front of his children? No, it's very much outside the normal state of a reasonably mature man. It actually never occurred to me to do such a thing myself, it's not an impulse I need to be vigilant of. I suspect most men, the vast majority of men, can make that statement. As I am sure you realized, you can't fix him. Hopefully his losing you helped him realize he has a big problem.

AG, that must have been painful, the idea that your ex would cover his face with a pillow during sex to avoid seeing you. I know the old saying, men are pigs. In many ways it's true. A man not willing to grow emotionally and cultivate a real, deep, meaningful, sexual relationship is a bit of a clod. I'll say, as a man, I understand where they went off the rails, but that does not excuse them. Women need to realize that they cannot fix these men. They can react to the bad behavior, by leaving or withdrawing, but only the man can fix it. So many men do not even realize they have a problem to fix.

In any event, I hope any insights I can give will help women understand that they should not be so hard on themselves when they find they are in these horrible situations. I hope, too, that maybe one or two relationships can be saved somewhere. It so easily spirals downward: the man rejects the woman because he has allowed himself to fall into a condition of needing hypersexual stimulation. The woman reacts by withdrawing, doubting herself, feeling worthless. The man reacts to this as some sort of proof that he's right to not be aroused by the woman, and so it goes. It's often a death spiral for a marriage. It takes such effort, courage and selfless giving on both sides to pull out of it.

Dakereb
10th January 2010, 02:14 AM
Claudette, I am so sorry for your situation. You feel for him, but now he wants you closer than you have been to him in so many years, and it is because of a serious, maybe life-threatening illness, and you feel distant. And I suspect you feel guilty for not really wanting to be that close to him. He's the most intimate stranger you'll ever know. Well, you know the answers; allow him to get closer to you. Sympathize with his very human fear of death. Forget the fights, the divisions, the emotional distance of the past. Strike a harmony with him now. Let him lean on you.

SallyBee
10th January 2010, 03:10 PM
Thanks Dakereb, I really appreciate all the trouble you have taken to reply to my queries. I will have a think about this and digest it. I do suspect a porn addiction (although I have not found any evidence of this), then on the other hand I have also suspected many other things and I'm not sure to what extent the condom I found correlates with a porn addiction - it looks like he's having or at the very least thinking of having an affair as well. I think it is clear that progress can only be made if he agrees to go to counselling/therapy. Is there a particular type of counselling/therapy that you would recommend?

jellybean28
10th January 2010, 04:27 PM
Sally
You have two choices here as I see it.

One is for you to move on without your husband, difficult given your circumstances.

The other is to stay in marriage without love and sex so rarely that concieving a child seems near impossible.

I stayed far to long in my marriage, for so many reasons I could write a book, for my husband to walk in the door and tell me he wanted a separation the day after our youngest turned 18 and had left home. This shattered me, my self esteem was so low I wanted to die I was completley dependant on him for everything. It's taken me two years to begin to understand why I stayed and allowed this to happen, but that's a different story.

You seem like a nice woman who deserves better.

jellybean28
10th January 2010, 04:40 PM
Thank you for sharing about Ex MrG and the pillow Grace,

explains alot of other things about my ExH's behaviour especially looking back to the time I believe he was having an affair with OW he would avoid eye contact at all costs or even facing me.

Dakerub,
The term "tackle" is often heard here in Australia, also the term "Wedding tackle" is used for young men about to be married. I prefer these terms to many other ones in use.

Dakereb
10th January 2010, 10:21 PM
Sally, my wife and I are benefitting greatly from a Christian marriage counselor. Many of the concepts that are the foundation of a good marriage are defined in the Bible. We are both Christians, so it was a natural place for me to turn. In any event, you should pick a counselor you think your spouse might eventually agree to see. For example, I chose a woman counselor because I knew my wife would never talk about sex with a man. I was not sure I would ever vet her to talk to ANY counselor, because she had said she never would, but I had to maximize what little chance I had. I went to the counselor alone for a few months and applied what I was taught. I learned from her that I could not change my wife, but I could change myself. We discussed my problems and how they contribute to the problems in the marriage. I worked hard to overcome them, and soon my wife noticed the positive changes in me. By the time the counselor asked me to invite her to a session, she had begun to think that maybe this could be a goog thing and hesitantly agreed to go. After she had been to a couple of sessions, I no longer had to talk her into going.

If your husband does eventually go with you, he will need to be guided toward attending meetings with a men's group for sexual addictions. Most of these groups are organized and run by local churches. It is unlikely you will be able to convince him to go, but a good counselor may be able to. These groups are made up of men who have battled sexual problems and suceeded. These men mentor the new members, helping them understand the problem ang giving them the mental tools and moral support they need. As I mentioned before, your husband must take ownership of his problem. Otherwise he will never muster the courage he will need to go to such meetings and get started with his healing.

So, the first step is for you to go to a counselor by yourself. It may never proceed beyond that, but at least you will have tried.

SallyBee
10th January 2010, 10:24 PM
Thanks Jellybean.

Your story is not unusual - a similar situation happened in my own extended family. I think it is deplorable of someone to decide in advance to leave their spouse when the children turn 18 and not let their spouse know this and allow them to continue on in ignorance of this plan. One of the factors that is now pushing me towards leaving my husband is the fear that this will also happen to me. I hope however you now find that life is better without him, and that your only regret is that this did not happen sooner.

I have given him one week to decide whether or not he wants to go to couples counselling with me. I have told him that if he does not agree to go I will have no option but to go back to the solicitor I saw previously and ask her to commence proceedings for a judicial separation (this is the first stage in my country as divorce takes some time).

I know one week is very short but I have been raising the issue of couples counselling with him for over one and a half years now. I went to see a counsellor myself on a number of occasions in the autumn of 2008 but unfortunately because he would not agree to attend it was very difficult to take matters further with the counsellor as regards the relationship unless I was prepared to make the decision to separate - which I did not feel able to do at that stage without giving it further consideration.

The difficulty is the sheer passivity. I don't think he wants a separation but he won't say one way or the other. He doesn't seem to need other people (even his family) very much. Yet when he goes out he is very social. I would say that he is a narcissist only he does not really have any negative traits other than those relating to sex & discussion of this issue. He will discuss all other issues quite openly and this seems to be to his only blind spot.

What frightens me most is that we might actually appear to resolve this matter through counselling and that this might not actually be the case and that it might rear its ugly head again down the line and he might leave me. I know that the couple in my extended family whom I mentioned above had had been through marriage counselling previously, which appeared to have been successful. However I feel I should go through the counselling process if he is agreeable and make my decision accordingly in the knowledge that even if the counselling appears to work it may be deceptive.

Derek
18th January 2010, 04:32 AM
Sex in my marriage ended 13 years ago. My efforts to leave my wife who does not want a divorce have not been successful and corporate downsizing coupled with managing my elderly father's care in a nursing home (he is now deceased) made things difficult. In addition I am pushing 60 so with mortality not that far off there is little hope of a new marriage to someone else anyway and women over 40 turn me off. Were I 20 years younger in this situation I believe I could find a way to separate and file for divorce. A separation attempt failed in 2006 as I was facing impending unemployment due to a contract ending. If I just had a little more money I would have divorced the bitch years ago. I have no desire for the bitch and she does not have any for me.

However the last 6 years, I have been dating strippers and have had a succession of them as mistresses. My current one is 28, married, and a law student. I see her about 2x a week both at motels and inside the club where I am VIP. She gets around $1300 a month from me which pays her mortgage. The sex is great and in a year and a half have acheived approximately 100 sessions with her which has surpassed another stripper I did about 80 times over a three year period rotating her with other girls. As far as my wife, well I hope she drops dead soon. We celebrated our 35th anniversary recently at a high end steakhouse with our 3 children and their spouses. I simply play my role both with the kids and co-workers - no one would suspect I view my marriage as a farce, a condemned structure messing up the modern skyline (see below) that needs to be demolished.

I will continue datiing strippers and escorts from here on out. I think its great going into the club like I did Friday nite, taking a 20 year old girl up to the VIP area, and having great sex with her (Occasionally I do other gals than mistress). Before our sex on a divan in the upstairs VIP, as foreplay she gave me great oral sex, something my wife never would do. And this a 20 year old gal!

Over the last 5 years I have about 20 different sex enjoyment partners, most of them strippers. I find I like variety and wish I knew years ago about this alternative. I am lifetime VIP at a number of local strip clubs and post on tuscl.net, a Strip Club Customer Site. Many there are Players like myself. If you are male and in a sexless marriage - go to a strip club and get a girl! It will work wonders for your morale. You can deal with how to get rid of your wife later or simply defer it. A site like tuscl.net will give you a lot of insights into the hobby (I have written numerous articles there). To me its all about good sex and what I have had with my current mistress beats any kinda sex I ever had with my wife. Our society is hung up on religionist issues and ignores the basic fact that women have been kept / shared by men since the dawn of man. Its simply a basic fact of human evolution which is much older than than many of the religionist trends affecting our culture. Women want different sex enjoyment partners just like men although their reasons may be different. My mistress is as excited as she can be to meet me whether its the sexy backrub, great sex, or the money. If your a guy in a sexless marriage, etc. go to a strip club or find an escort. I simply made lemonaide from lemons and became a Strip Club Player.

Derek

Ageing Grace
18th January 2010, 10:41 AM
Well, I'm glad you're having such a good time with your stripper pals - and can afford them!
I wish you wouldn't be so nasty about your wife, though. Now you've got your life sorted according to your requirements, couldn't you at least show the woman some consideration?

Thanks for an entertaining post :D

jellybean28
19th January 2010, 03:30 PM
Well now derek I can understand why you are in an unhappy marriage, seems to me that if you can afford to spend money on a stripper, paying for her accomodation, surely you could use that money to move out of your house and support yourself. Sounds like a case of having your cake and eating it (no pun intended).

I can see why you have to pay for sex, with your attitude towards women who don't work in the sex industry I wouldn't find you attractive or desirable no matter how much money you had.

Sex for the sake of sex or so you can brag about your conquests, grow up before your use bye date runs out and you end up a lonely fustrated old man.

dalesman
24th January 2010, 06:15 PM
Derek I am finding great difficulty in believing that you are for real and that you are not just posting on here for a joke. Here in England paying for sex with prostitutes is not generally considered cause for boasting in fact we think of it as all rather pathetic. If you are genuine then let me tell you something. I too prefer younger ladies and since my divorce many years ago I have dated loads. Many young ladies prefer older men for their maturity, stability and experience. I have also always been honest and made it plain that my interest is only casual.
These is nothing wrong with this as I am single and honest. I am also aware that there is no long term future in any of these dalliances.

If you are a genuinely nice person with something to offer then these relationships will come naturally without having to pay for it. What possible satisfaction can you get when you know these women are professionals. If cold impersonal sex is what floats your boat then its no wonder your wife isn't interested and its probably a good job for her in case she caught some thing nasty.

I once new a man just like you who complained bitterly about his wife and the lack of sex. Like you he used this to justify using escorts. The Joke was that his wife didn't want sex with him because she had been having an affair with the next door neighbour for over 15 years. Now he is a very old man housebound with various illnesses and his wife still goes out on her own leaving him home and alone.

Derek
27th January 2010, 12:37 AM
I have to laugh at some of your comments.

Why I date strippers as opposed to women who aren't strippers, some reasons why, using a favorite seen OTC (outside the club) as contrasted against the traditional girlfriend / dating relationship.

ATF (Alltime Favorite or favorite stripper - girl at top of depth chart):

You know that you'll get the sex. She is beautiful (mine was a cheerleader and modeled bikinis). Sex is her hobby she says. Like Belle in the BBC show "Secret Diary of a Call Girl" she works to please you. As a matter of fact its one of her fav shows.

The sex is guilt free, even if she's married - mine is and I am approaching 100 sessions with her. Its great sex too as she is excited to give it. She could care less your married - understands your wife has no interest in sex due to female change of life issues and is glad to step in as a pinch hitter. Sure I pay her for sex - so what?

Most likely, you'll never meet her relatives. No pressure to meet her friends.

She doesn't believe in monogamy, even if she is married. No requirement on you to believe in it either.

She's at your beck and call. With mine all I have to do is lay back and let her come get me and then she does me cowboy style. She loves to pose for bikini photos, sometimes nude. Flattered your adding her to your photo archive of different gals you have done over the years.

Most likely, won't want you to dress a certain way.

Doesn't see your place, unless you're stupid.

Will travel with you and enjoy it. Men will wonder where you found her. At the pool she will blow away the other gals. Sex with her back at the cabin will be all nite long.

Might discuss you with her stripper friends, but you'll never hear about it. Some of them may call you offering to meet for session at motel (I call these bonus gals) or for threesome. One stripper I saw for three years I ended up doing two of her friends too (one in a threesome).

Doesn't care what you eat, unless you fart in bed with her.

Is fine with you just as you are. No strings attached. Your age doesn't matter to her. 30 years her senior, no problem. As a matter of fact she loves it.

You can budget what you'll spend on her.

She can go longer in bed than reg GF and won't rush you. Within half hour to hour she is ready to go again.


Traditional Girlfriend / Dating Relationship;

Sex can be iffy. She may have an unreasonable time limit as to how long the realtionship goes before it can happen. She only wants it a certain way; how you want it is not a priority with her.

Sex carries with it, an emotional price tag. Always worried about some kinda emotional crap issue. Criticises you for not being vital or emotional enough. "Why don't you have a sense of humor like Bobby (guy who dumped her) and I wonder why I haven't met any of your friends" she will say (your tempeted to suggest her to go to the Strip Club with you ha ha where you have plenty of friends, many who blow her away in the looks department).

May be 20 or more years old and still a virgin or throw up all kind of barriers about her precious virginity. If your smart you will show her the door.

You must meet her relatives, and pretend to like them. Lots of family and church crap. She gets ticked if you don't care much for her friends or fall asleep while her mother talks about a boring vacation they went on.

Believes in the unrealistic lifestyle of monogomy and expects your to practice it. Doesn't understand wanting different sex partners simply part of human evolutionary history.

She wants you accounted for 7/24 (she knows she can't compete with strippers).

After a month or two, wants you to wear unmasculine clothing.

Is bothered that you are married. May give a deadline as to when you should leave wife. Doesn't understand the concept of no strings or sex just for fun.

Wants to reorganize and redecorate your place.

Won't give you time of day in bar because your not "age group appropriate."

Trip? Oh you'll get her input as to where to go, and what to see. But sex, it will occur not as frequent as you like she will make sure of that.

Ran a poll on you with her friends, and lets you in on every gory detail.

Will regulate your diet at some point.

Her eventual goal is to emasculate you and carry your balls around in her purse.

Will nag you to meet certain financial goals and will tell you how to spend her, I mean your money. If you marry her, prepare to hand your paycheck over to her.

Ageing Grace
27th January 2010, 12:57 AM
I don't have a problem with the sex industry, Derek, nor with people (of either sex) who choose sex as a transaction. What makes you so repulsive is your absurd delusion that the girls enjoy sex with you - or anything about you, except your money. Beats me why you *need* to believe they're with you from choice - you talk about them as if they were cars, so why not get with the program and accept you get the sex because you pay for it? Try telling AF you're not planning to deliver any more cash for a while, and see how much she enjoys your company, or your stupid massages, then.

Your attitude to women has evidently poisoned your marriage. I can only imagine your long-suffering wife is waiting for you to die, if there's going to be any estate left after you've given it all to call girls. I hope she wakes up & divorces you before then, the courts would have a field day.

Do keep posting, though. You make me laugh.

jellybean28
27th January 2010, 08:19 AM
Oh Derek

I don't know whether to pity you or depise you. With your total lack of respect for women you are going to get burned one day. Don't underestimate the inteligence of women who work in the sex industry or the fact they talk to each other about their clients. One day you will get caught out no matter how discrete you think you are being.

Do you really think other men are jealous when you are seen with a beautiful woman on your arm? If that' what you think you are a bigger fool than I first thought or delusional.

Oh men who brag about and give details about there sex lives like you do are either delusional or not getting it as much as they say they are.

As for your poor wife I hope she's spending your money on having a good time, she deserves it, putting up with you. Selfish coward are a couple of words that come to mind.

Your delusions would make for a great script for one of those awful American shows. You the ones "I can't get up unless I"m paying for it" Just think if you went and bought yourself a blow up doll you could get it whenever you wanted without paying for it, save you a fortune.

jellybean28
27th January 2010, 08:31 AM
Dalesman

Thank your for your honest post. You appear to have a healthy respect for women.
I would be happy to share an evening with a gentleman like you, without expecting payment for my company.

As for Dereck if he is for real, the women he pays to spend their time with him deserve every last penny they can get out of him, including all expenses.

I to have seen men like Dereck who have ended up in nursing homes, to live the end of there days hoping their long suffering wives, will take time out from their busy days of living it up and praying that they will bring in a few treats for them to make their life a little more pleasant.

Dakereb
27th January 2010, 04:28 PM
Well, Derek, if you were suffering a terminal illness, who would be there for you?

Derek
28th January 2010, 02:57 AM
Well, Derek, if you were suffering a terminal illness, who would be there for you?

Not at all worried - probably no one. I will die with a smile on my face knowing all the fine gals I have had.

At least I have done something pro-active about my lack of sex due to my dead marriage. My only regret is not doing it much sooner. A guy on a stripper customer site I access said he left empty condom wrappers, strip club brochures, and empty viagra bottles around the house to get his wife to file for divorce. A gutsy fellow to say the least. My advice to any guy not getting enough at home: Go to a strip club and get a couple of lap dances, have a beer, and enjoy the buffet. Get your lifetime VIP at your fav club, now you have your wings. Do a few gals otc or itc and now your a topgun. You will never hang your head again!

bigben
29th January 2010, 01:12 AM
In the past 3 and a half years my wife and i have had sex 3 times. Five years ago i began to feel as though i was doing all the running - feeling very unloved - i kept a count how often we made love - that year it was once - initiated by me - i'd spent the whole year waiting for my wife to initiate something - but it didn't happen. The next year was exactly the same. I then threw in the towel - i couldn't bring myself to ask anymore. As i said - since then we have made love three times - and each time it has been when we have been on holiday- and although it made me very happy - i could tell she wasn't very interested. We have been married for 35 years,and not long ago i was doing alot of soul searching - and a few things came to my attention - my wife has never liked french kissing - she never has put her tongue in my mouth - (i clean my teeth at least twice a day) and also only once has she ever kissed me either on my lips or face - she used to offer her face to me to kiss her goodbye - but even this stopped some while ago. When she goes to bed she just says "goodnight".She has never put her arm around me in bed - or touched my face lovingly. I try and keep in good shape - i'm not over weight - i don't smoke - and just have a couple of bevvys at the weekend. We have three kids no longer at home - and - i do love my wife - but is this enough?? My self confidence sometimes hits the floor - i don't know what to do anymore. I sometimes look at porn on the internet for abit of relief - and then feel discusted with my self and guilty. A few months ago i really did think of ending my life - for about three days i tried to think of the easiest way - but i ended up breaking down in tears - and then felt better for a while - but i'm up and down like a yo-yo. Please - please - someone out there - help! - give me some advice - i just want to be wanted - and loved. x

1aokgal
29th January 2010, 08:58 AM
Hey Derek..

Thanks for your interesting and entertaining life here for all of us. I bet the lap dance girls and pros you claim do you, describe your small private parts and the charitable acts they do for you in exchange for the big bucks you give them. I believe in the free enterprise system and while you support them, they won't hit the social systems. So we won't need to help them out. That money is why they tolerate a wrinkled old guy who deludes himself about why they boff him.

I am proud of your wife for kicking you to the curb because she is giving your children the companionship, values and ideals to which you cannot aspire. You are likely just an older addition of the younger man who is selfish , egotistical and narcissistic. Great that you make good money because I think your wife will get clued in one day, as you squire a pal around, and someone shares the gossip with her. She will shoot for the wad/cash and leave your balls for another. She also spares herself the possibility of an ugly disease you might bring home.

Sad to think you believe your own PR here about your great stud performance! Those pumps work well! Your wife probably has good friends and a support network who appreciate her and share the important things that she does to hold up her end of this shoddy bargain. I wonder how she decribes you in relation to the mean spirited man who used to be the nice man in the wedding photograph? I say your spirit is shrivelled and sad. You will likely end up infirm... with all your various problems you mention. Your children won't give you the time of day except to wait for what is left when you are gone.

Hopefully you will die before you blow it all on wine, women and song. I suspect your staying power is mechanical and even for a buck, gals get fussy. So one day when you are down and all used up, you will wish someone loves you. I hope you make your peace before that with your God because you are someone most won't care to know. How lonely for you.

Don't stop posting though as we can use a laugh here. We also realize you must be a really, sad , sick person and have compassion you are so lost.

1aokgal
29th January 2010, 09:33 AM
SallyBee...

I hope things are better for you. Not that i think the situation has changed but that you come to realize the mirror is not your problem. I read between the lines that you assimilate all this as something is not right with you. That is so not the case.

When a man worships porn that is is mate of choice. It is a fantasy world, pretty much like Derek haunts hookers because these men often can't function normally with a partner who wants more than a transient performance that lasts a few minutes. A relationship means that there is emotional content and time to make a partner comfortable. A good lover can invest some time in intimate foreplay and techniques. Both should enjoy the act , and not the one to meet his needs as automated as a tooth brush.

A real man takes pride in his performance and ability to please a partner. He delights in being close and doing things together beyond a mattress. Love is about the sharing and giving to another..not in the taking and drawing back into the shell. Your husband has shut you out. He is incapable to give and is afraid to love ina normal way as he fears rejection. That is likely childhood trauma and unless you have years to wait for that nut to crack in counselling, make other plans.

He prefers an easy route to physical relase. It is like the fetal position that one returns to when immature and self centered. Meeting his needs, denies you any emotional/physical outlet. He holds you hostage while you go through torture to try to find out what is wrong and FIX it. You can't FIX a broken person.

Now you just work on you to be happier with what pleases you and improve your talents and abilities. Don't stay in a hopeless situation that erodes your confidence and your womanhood. Shoot for your independence from being miserable with someone who dosen't know you exist. Stop the self analysis. It was never about you. It is about him. He is joyless and a shell. Buy him a subscription to a porn mag and get yourself to the gym and beauty shop.
Celebrate who you are and get out with friends. Don't let him call the shots on your life. The best may be yet to come.

BigBen
29th January 2010, 01:23 PM
Hi All - one thing i just must say - and it's something that really does get on my nerves - not ALL men have a one dimensional view of women. To me - the one basic thing i crave for is love and affection -( ok - so its two things - but you get my drift here)- but if a man wants love and affection alot of women take the view of "Oh --- typical man!!! - always wants reassuring for his huge ego!!!! ------- but------ if a woman wants love and affection, then that is perfectly ok.
To me, sex is the icing on the cake - but i want to be loved first. Another thing - why is it, with some women, (so i gather) do they expect the man to "provide" the sex and then for the woman to give marks out of ten!!!Sex should be something that is given and taken by both partners.Alot of women see men as totally emotionless - (ok- some men - maybe - but then again - some women are as cold as ice too!!!).
I think i'm quite affectionate - i always greet female friends with a kiss and cuddle - (and its always returned) - i just want my wife to be like it - but she isn't. She told me when we were first married that she wasn't really the affectionate type - how right she was. Like i said in my previous message, i love her - but i get so down and i feel so rejected - my self confidence goes so low. I always try and understand how she feels - but i must say i really do believe she doesn't love me - simple as that. I think marrage makes some couples take each other forgranted - and they loose respect for each other. If two people REALLY love each other then they would do ANYTHING to keep them.
Isn't it strange that so many people are in a mis-matched realtionship. Why couldn't all the sex-loving women have met all the sex-loving men and all the sex hating women have met all the sex hating men - sorry i missed all the women-women and men-men realationships - but its still the same.
I don't want a cold relationship with a stranger - i want my wife - truly - i want us to be intimate - just a touch of a hand from time to time - just a loving kiss on the cheek from time to time - just to hear the words "I love you" every now and then. I have tried but everything i say or do fails.I want to make love and then cuddle - is that really TOO much to ask - it costs nothing. My wife works hard, as i do, and i take my share with house work and cleaning - but if i am honest - yes - she does do more than me.
Sometimes i think i'm turning into a woman!!!! - because everything i feel is what i read from alot of women - and i don't believe for one second i am the only man who feels this way.
Thankyou for reading this - i read all your messages with great interest.

spiderman
29th January 2010, 07:24 PM
bloody hell Ben...thats exactly like my relationship was with my now ex wife.....so no your not the only male who wants affection and love and isnt emotionless

Lee

1aokgal
29th January 2010, 08:45 PM
Dear Bigben..

I am right on your page, guy, all that and more. Why don't we all jump in a big brown paper bag and get a shake so we can end up with someone like ourselves? A warm, loving, giving, spontaneous human being who loves us and desires to be with us physically. Where did the locked eyes go and the touch that made one shiver with joy? When did a smile seem pasted on because we try to do the right thing, while our partner robs us of all we thought we got in a marriage.

Sad, empty moments? I had a billion of those while I go about lonely life. I feel sadness when I see others who have what I do not. A sad place for me is a grocery store. You have couples engaged in the small details of daily life and they are warm. You can tell they share passion. That is not how I feel with him. He is such a dysfunctional human being who for years tells me how he loves me and meets his own needs. I am living single in a king size bed with a man who works elsewhere as best he can. The stranger there on the other side is my husband.
Telling it here is the best I can do, because this is not what you tell others. They wouldn't believe that nice guy who opens doors for me and compliments me is assexual.

Yes, if we could have it to do over.... we would have run the other direction. Truth is, I am a nice lady and look OK but lucky in love, I am not. What to do? Where to go? No where. Nothing. You make the best of a sorry situation in my age bracket. There are no more go arounds. Pity, he now has Cancer and wishes for my compassion. I can do that because I am 1aokgal, but there is no love to spare anymore. My heart is shrivelled. There is none for him. At least..not today.
I have on and off days. I do other things that make me content with those parts of my life. It is in compartments.

I advise you to build those separate places where you find a part of happiness and do the best you can with it. She sounds like a frozen turkey who her guards her knees.... so little hope with that one. Pity. We do understand you here and hope you have a better day tomorrow.
HUGS

Bigben
30th January 2010, 01:43 AM
Hi Okgal - ahhhhh - looks like you have problems too - thankyou for your reply - i was hoping to get a ladys view - and i got it!!!!. Sounds like you are all cried out actually - and running on empty. There is all kinds of viewpoints on this site. I feel after reading them though, that i have learned nothing in life and become incredibaly ignorant of how alot of women feel - have i been living a lie.??? I remember reading a reply(i think it was this site) where a lady said that no woman is ever vocal for herself in bed - she just does it to please her partner - EH!!!!this can't be true!!!! - can it ???? i mean - i don't really know - ive never been privy to that situation - it has been a dream - yes - but is this one shattered as well??? I LONG for passion - oh if only!!!
The other thing i want to ask - (i'm so sorry to be me me me all the time - i'll stop after this - but when i was first married - er - many years ago - i made up my mind that i would NEVER try and "force" (if thats the word - sounds abit wrong to me!!!) my wife - or rather "put-on" her for sex. I would always make sure, somehow, that she could be put in the "mood" and that she would not feel uncomfortable or pressured. Consequently, even though i would be feeling really really horny - i would suppress my feelings and forget the idea - which was, and still is very hard - (no pun intended) if she didn't seem interested. My question is this - do you think i have made things more difficult for our marriage by not being a "mans man" and being more assertive!!!! - have i seemed "weak" do you think - which has caused her to loose respect for me. - strange question i know - but i often wonder if i have been my worst enemy!!!! - but then again - i think my cards maybe have been marked right from the start - i keep hearing those words in my head - "I'm not the affectionate type"

Dakereb
30th January 2010, 03:52 AM
Bigben, I feel for you. Been where you are. Still there for the most part, but it's not as bad as it once was.

I think you're on to something with the "weak" man, but not quite as you see it. In my view, you need to work on being emotionally strong as you would envision yourself if you were single. You need to change your view toward being emotionally independent, not relying on your wife or any outside person for your sense of peace and contentment. For me, I turn to my relationship with God. I've worked hard on that over the last year. I am now much less depressed, much calmer, and far less fatalistic. I accept the flaws in my life that I cannot change, and seek to address the flaws in myself.

My wife has noticed the transformation. Our relationship now is much warmer and closer than it has been in perhaps 16 years. A lot of water has passed under the bridge, so it is not likely that she will ever love me romantically, but that's okay, because my joy comes from God. If we stay together, that's great. If we don't, that's fine, too.

Your wife has always been lacking in desire for physical affection. There is no reason to think she will ever change. And remember, you cannot change her! You have control over only yourself. You have no control of her, and nor should you. If you try to convince her to change, you will only breed resentment in her heart. Do not misdirect your efforts. They should be directed toward changing yourself. The change you should work toward is emotional independence. Do it for yourself, not for her, and not for the relationship. She may never recognize the change, or if she does, she may never respond to it as you might hope. But others will see it, and it will make your life so much better. An emotionally strong, independent man is an attractive man, and a happy man, and no one can take that happiness away from you because it comes from within.

As far as women pretending to enjoy sex, well, I believe that's often true. Sexual dysfunction exists in both genders, and that, I believe, is a manifestation of it in women. That said, it is also true that, on average, men crave sex more than women. A loving woman will find the pleasure of sex in the fact that she is giving pleasure to a man she loves.

God bless you, and keep your chin up!

Dakereb
30th January 2010, 04:03 AM
Derek, I guess if you really are happy with the way your life is structured, more power to you. But I know that, for myself, I'd be hiding a deep misery if I lived like that. I think most men do best with a real emotional connection (not dependence) on others. From what you've described, you're lacking that with anyone. You've made your peace with that, I suppose. If you haven't, and deep down inside you're mad sex with prostitutes is really just to cover and forget the pain, then I hope you find the strength to pursue real contentment. In any event, may God take you when you die, even if you don't believe in his existence.

Ageing Grace
30th January 2010, 04:06 AM
Hi, Ben. I'm very sorry your marriage has come to this pass.

Please try to boost your self-worth - preferably by other means than the lovely Derek's recommendations! Perhaps you could get back in touch with more old friends, boost your physical activity, treat yourself to a new look ... And see a counsellor. You do sound very depressed, and rather too focussed on the problem in your marriage - which is not to diminish the problem; I mean that thinking about what you can't have stops you recognising your own good points, and making the most of life as it is. You need to counter the depression before it swamps you!

No, it's not true that women don't want sex (generally speaking). You only have to pick up a women's magazine to see that! Obviously it helps if there is both love and physical attraction between you, plus respect (Derek). Being treated as an - er, receptacle - doesn't do a whole lot to make a woman feel sexy.

And, of course, you should never insist on sex!! That would be very close to the crime of marital rape, and would certainly do nothing to enhance whatever respect is left between you. I think the fact you've even thought about it shows how all-consuming the problem has become in your mind. That's what my first paragraph is about.

Under the circumstances, I really don't feel you need to be 'guilty' about using porn if it helps you along. It WOULD become a problem if you let yourself become dependent on it (addicted) - it does happen. Like any other addiction, it can mess with your head and your life. But, if you're using ordinary material that's publicly available and it's not keeping you away from other areas of your life, why not?

To be married to somebody who's "not affectionate" is a kind of slow torture, isn't it? I wonder what goes on in the minds of such people, when they sign up for marriage. What's happening to you is literally a breach of contract. While I can't comment on your wife, as I know nothing about her, I most certainly understand your frustration and even anger.

You have discussed this together, haven't you? I'm thinking there might be some trauma in your wife's background that left her scared of physical closeness. Sometimes this happens to people as a result of a seemingly small incident, it doesn't have to be anything horrific. The issue IS a serious one within a marriage, and I feel she has a duty to at least explore it with you. Counselling can go a long way to help resolve such things.

It's tricky. You have my deepest sympathy. I hope you'll be able to find a way to lovingly help your wife towards a fuller relationship. For starters, see if you can get her to couples counselling with you. And take up squash or something to vent your energy!

Write back, please :)

Ageing Grace
30th January 2010, 04:07 AM
Darn, I was hoping Dakereb would reply to you - and he did, while I was typing!

He said it better than me :)

Dakereb
30th January 2010, 04:31 AM
AG, I think you added quite a bit of insight that I missed. I think you're particularly on point with the observation that Bigben's wife may have some emotional trauma in her past. Something is amiss, that's certain.

Bigben, I understand how you feel about pornography and masturbation, too. Know this, many men get addicted to this. Not to be overly graphic, but the theory is that, when you orgasm, your brain is bathed in chemicals that cause a feeling of calm and relaxation. Repeatedly bringing yourself to orgasm by viewing pornography and masturbation eventually conditions you to respond to only that, and you lose the ability to respond to a real sexual engagement with a woman. Some men are more susceptible to this than others, but I think we all run a risk if we over indulge in this. Overcoming the addiction is exceptionally difficult, because sexual impulses are normal, and masturbation is easy, and sexually charged images of women are everywhere. Don't judge yourself harshly if you release yourself once in a while, but be cautious.

BigBen
30th January 2010, 01:44 PM
Oh no!!! i wrote a reply - quite a long one - and when i posted it a window came up with a warning i had "Timed Out". So - i typed all i could remember out again, but this time on the advanced page - and the same thing happened - now i'm getting annoyed!!!! - i lost everything - i just want to talk!!!!! - anyway - i'll get back to you later - my fingers are aching now - and i need a coffee!!!!x

BigBen
30th January 2010, 03:38 PM
Hi - let me see if i can beat the clock - i can't say everything i want to say as i have so much - the clock is ticking and it wouldn't be fair on you - but ---- Dakereb - you are so right with the emotional independence - i have started to go out lately alone where i meet people with a very passionate interest of mine - and i do feel very self confident when i am there - infact - i feel as if i am someone else - if that makes sense!!!!I have to find a way of not relying on my wife - i must do it!!!
And AG - you are right - you read me well - i was on anti deps for sometime - and felt great - numb - but great - i felt as if i didn't have a care in the world - but then realized i was living in a fantasy world - and weaned myself off. I know i still need help because of all the tears when i'm alone - the thing is - "real" men are not supposed to do that stuff are they - which makes me feel even more of a failure.
I better go now - i don't want to loose this message as well - but i have so much to say.
Thankyou all - its been such a huge release.

Dakereb
30th January 2010, 06:40 PM
Ben, when you hit "post" and find out it's timed out, it should present a big screen for you to enter your name and password. Entering it there should allow you to then post your reply without losing it.

"Real men" are human, and humans cry.

Looking forward to your posts!

dalesman
30th January 2010, 07:28 PM
Jellybean
Only just read your post in this thread 27/01/10. thanks for your lovley complement and nice words.

SallyBee
31st January 2010, 11:43 PM
1aokgirl

Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate your generosity in taking the trouble to reply to my posts. You are a lovely person.

1aokgal
3rd February 2010, 06:08 AM
SallyBee..
We are listening. Tell us what we can do to help. Thank you for sweet compliment. I feel very sad for you and hope you find some outlet to bring you a little space that is yours and makes you feel good. I love painting, sewing (creative projects,) and my wonderful animals.
Unfortunately mu loved German Shepherd got a mystery wound today from somewhere in the yard. Tomorrow must go find where he impaled a really bad wound on his side. ABout a 4 inch slice that ended up into a pie shaped open wound. I think a nail from fence or deck or a projecting tree linb from one of the bushes.
An expensive emergency run to VET and stitches under gas and pain meds and antibiotic. Lucky I keep insurance policy on health of both my large shepherds so less than it would have been. Life sure is strange!
Take care of yourself. I play nurse for a couple days to my poor baby as he heals a really bad wound. The animals are such a joy and I am so busy doing things I enjoy, I don't much think of other things. Perhaps I am just used to substitutions and sublimation. Lots of practice through the years.

Bear~
8th February 2010, 10:23 PM
1AoKGal

I read your post and feel like I wrote it mySelf...so sad and Heart breaking to hunger for the Warm, Loving touch. To look for that Smile that reflects Joy*

We went to hear his Guitar teacher play in a band...the music was great...then the couples got up later to slow dance and I couldn't hide the sadness I felt. He got up and paid the bill and we left.

On the way Home the smile on his face and his conversation about the tipsy Lady dancing...you would never know he saw my pain* So Careless* (callous)

My Heart is shriveled too* Like you said...no one would Believe the man they see buy me Gifts, open my door...would ignore me behind closed doors.

Sunday morning he left at 8AM and returned at 11PM...out for the day going from one friend to another to visit. I do that more now too...

I'm sad to hear what you're going thru...Wish you Strength...Bless you*

1aokgal
11th February 2010, 10:05 AM
Hi Bear...

I have been working a lot of time on my business these days. Keeping it all flying takes effort and though it is all marketing on the internet. I am the buyer, creator, designer, and stocker, shipping clerk and bookeeper of it all. Suddenly find though business is poor elsewhere the internet is on fire. That keeps me very busy and occupies the space that would be thinking about all we discuss here. Energy directed is a happy source of satisfaction overall.

My husband is home and helps around as he begins his treatment for illness nearby. Funny, he never took any vacation time to speak of but now will use that time for this which is good as he is paid. I have always been a worker bee but especially now. He earns considerable money, so that will drop some but we are debt free so the lion is not at the door but it is of concern to me. I find better time management was needed for my own productivity.

He likes to cook and seems to wait on me a lot. I say just relax or sit awhile. He doesen't seem to know how to just veg out. He follows me around and worries about me doing too much. I always carried burdens as he was never here. I think men don't find the outlets women have to bring that place of peace.The thing I notice though ..he is a feeder. He will always bring me home this or that. He is a snacker in the evening. OK for him...not for me. I can pack on pounds by smelling carbs.

The weather has been brutal cold with some now which we seldom ever get here. Not conducive for dog walks. I may start back to the gym next week with a friend who tell me she will go. I wonder why he feels it necessary to be a "feeder?" Sometimes I think he sabotages me weightwise. Either that, or I look for an excuse to do what I like to do anyway in the winter...eat. Summer I am outdoors a lot and live in the pool.

Bear, it is hard to turn off that sad inner diaglogue that women here have about this life.
I know that it is very negative and try to keep this all from getting me down.

I can't comment too much on our friend, Derek. Just sounds sad and shallow. A lay is a far cry from a feeling of peace, warmth and intimacy. Most of us here miss THAT more than the physical sex. He gets a "fix"..same as any drug, and that keeps him from feeling, thinking or dwelling on the emptiness inside. He dulls the pain. I guess Oxycontin, marijuana and other drugs have the same effect? One day he may feel bad about himself. Right now, I suspect he is too shallow to care. That is very sad for him. I believe he has self destructive tendencies overall. The silly boasts are yarn worthy. A real man dosen't talk about conquests. None of that is a conquest..it is a sure thing. It is not even a "score." it is the same as ejaculation in a cup. The difference is that costs more. A bet on a horse would seem more fun and have better return.

For some reason he selected a forum here prone to Christian sentiments rather than playboy reconteur. Maybe the desire is to offend or shock? I guess I don't get the point?

Many men will so blatantly cheat they bring another woman home to their own marriage bed. When the marriage is disrupted, it is a punishment they secretly desired. They feel unworthy and bring it about. Self loathing at its' finest. I for one hate to read the garbage as it just sounds so school boyish like a kid reject making up bragging stories. High school boys put notches on a stick when they get a feel. Men are usually more secure about their sexuality. The ones who are not often have the kind of difficulties that many women won't care to deal with and a pro dosen't care. It is part of the bargain.

We all must live with our demons and do the best we can to find happiness and overcome some of these.

Bear~
11th February 2010, 11:01 PM
1AokGal,

It's funny how some things you write are so like my Life*

Mine likes to cook too...and he's a feeder* The same thought goes through my mind...that he's keeping me from weight loss. Also, I think it's another way to show Love without "making Love" :o)

I'm glad to see you keep busy...Spring will be here soon and I too intend to get my Big Dog out walking...Time for Me to get back to Living!

The Derek guy...for some reason when I read his posts I picture a little greasy troll. We know when our Lives are busy with fun we're not posting on any kind of board LOL! To post to the men is one thing...to jump on between women kind `ove outs what he's about*

Stay Beautiful, take care of You...you're in my Thoughts and I send Good Wishes your way*

1aokgal
12th February 2010, 05:24 AM
Bear...

We have known each other a long time here. I know you pretty well and we do have similar lives. These are not BAD men, they are bad husbands. The cooking, the caretaking, the opening of doors. They are well trained by over zealous mothers and likely always want to please the mother. somehow that sexuality is all mixed up with this. Was your husband an elder son or only son? Birth order also has different expectations.

There I go..wasting time on trying to figure them out! The scenario was there before I came onthe scene so it was never about me...or YOU. It just took us a darn long time and a lot of soul searching to get that one. Then we tried so hard to please. We were good little girls who took the burden of fault on ourselves many years. I am better about all this. I am pretty emotionless most of the time. There is the drug component...I tune out and then no turmoil or anger. That last part can kill. Introjected anger is that we turn inward and causes many diseases. Take care of yourself!

Watch the bloody feeding these men do it can sure take a toll on months of dieting and good works. I appreciate your kind thoughts. He begins his chemo/radiation tomorrow and every day for about 5 weeks. Then he has a 2 month break before surgery begins. We will see how this will go. If this is successful the surgery will be less radical. He only has this for about a half hour per day and not working. That worries me but we will get through this time.

1aokgal
13th February 2010, 12:30 PM
Dear Jellybean28 and Bear...

Yes, we have been here awhile and can share. Often it is in the middle of the night. We wake and find difficulty to go back to sleep. You see, I "make things" in my mind. Often I paint a portrait or do one of my Victorian dress projects. There are glowing ideas. Perhaps that is my rest? I may need less sleep than many. I might catch a nap later in the chair even while writing on the laptop I can startle to realize I got the 30 minutes I missed last night while I was creating a project. Is that a sign of getting older..cat naps?

We share a lot about what are sorrows or joys. This is my joy, to create. I excell at a number of distinct or seldom done tasks. I find my house has become a place where visitors want the tour because of the hand painted porcelains displayed here or the portraits and artwork in my victorian costumes. Maybe if had been a happier person with the marriage there would have been little time to find the talents that would have lain dormant? Do writers narrate lovely or sad stores in response to life stresses? True, we reflect what has made the vase full. That part of my life is a blessing that all around me was the ME waiting inside, never before released. I love that part of my life.
Bear is a caretaker who puts it all into her empathy fo rth esuffering of another.

Even the man I married has served a purpose in Gods' plan. If it had not gone as it did,
I would have wrapped around him more and less around all the capabilities and life purpose. He chose a life/career different than the one he promised when we married. I extracted a pledge that he would never take a job traveling or away from home for long periods. I had too much of that in my marriage before. It broke the bonds. Absence did not make the heart fonder for us. There were others for both of us who filled the time..months alone. He was gone 7/8 months a year. I fell over the knowledge that while I waited, he did not, and ended that celibacy with affairs of the heart. It is easy to leave a marriage when the connection is gone and violence entered the picture as it did then.

Years later , when I married this man I found everything in him complete for many years.
He was the soulmate and friend and lover, though this was the weak area always. I wondered why it was that way but was happy with him. Then 10 years into the marriage he told me he was going into work that was a guarantee of more than a a half year or more from home. We argued over this for several months. I told him I would file separation papers and did so. He left anyway but always came back to me. I was broken hearted for several years. The first year..here less than a week home. So the months became long alone years. We stayed togeher when he was here because he always came back to me. There were no other women, but he changed and drew inside, though he always came back but his thoughts were elsewhere. He loves what he does and could see the world. He stopped being a husband years ago with the complete absence of intimacy. I share a marital bed but nothing else.

We travelled extensively and lived abroad in the early years. I married a European.
I enjoyed to vist all the places, but later my comfort was here. The home is lovely and there are amenities that mean a good vacation spot is not as appealing to me. There is a boat and summers going there and weekends are perfect. Since he has always been gone, but a few weeks in the season, I have friends who go. One has a boat so we take turns going out. I made life full without him.

When he is here, I do things with him. He enjoys to cook for me or do what I like to do. One might even say he "hovers" a bit. Tomorrow I go to one of my Victorian teas. Yes, dressed in one of the Victorian dresses I create and market. I did not get a reservation for him. It is true he might like to go, but I am used to doing things without him. He insists to bring me and come back to pick me up. He likes these events and wants to go with me to one later in the week. Now he is home because he will be going through an hour each weekday at the clinic so he is on a two month vacation time for this. That is something for man who hardly ever takes a day off from work.

He finds it difficult to relax so I am going to show him how to be an internet wizard. That is why I do. Only we will gear it so he can learn to market electronics. You see, I am the business one here. It would be nice if we could find a way to be intimate again but I am not sure we are comfortable with the issue, or even to discuss it. I have considered to get him to a counsellor.... now he has his feet on the ground in the same locale where I am. That has not happened for years. He was just never here. He even worked in another city as he travelled when he was on rotation here ..200 miles away. I saw him 4 days a month, the last 2 years.

So, with this unlikely life it is pretty sure thing the marriage is a shell that while we share a dinner and hold hands across a table and he always tells me he loves me...there is a chunk that got left out.
He is more like an infatuated 12 year old who likes to tag along rather than a man who takes responsibility to mold and maintain an adult relationship. We are now in year 18 of this sexless marriage. Should I say here i have always loved him?
I still love him passionately, and usually like him, but find no thought of him as a lover in the mix except intellectually. I still wonder what to label the man.

Oh, about Derek, yes, little sexual fantasies and tricks does not make a man of 60 into 28.
When the wallet runs dry so will the drug called "sex" dry up. When he is ill or needs kindness, his wife..the one he calls a bitch, will likely do what she can to make him comfortable and give him attention. She probably feels very sad because such narcissim and ugliness of soul is difficult to hide from those who care. If she is a woman of faith, she is sure to include her husband in her prayers. So we should do the same. Let's say a prayer for Derek that he can talk to us about loneliness and sadness. We do care about anyone who post here. I just am not keen on being a person who has to read here......like a dirty novel....how many tricks a guy has with a girl half his age.

I can tell you women here , you know we curl our lips back to think how sad it is for a young woman to be in such a profession. Dignity and modesty is lost and often the trade serves one who has a drug problem or even family to support and there is no other way. It is degrading, sordid and dangerous and runs downhill as the years progress. A lovely young girl of 28 becomes the untidy hag, needle marked woman of 40, who turns tricks in alleys. It is not a pretty trail and often walked by those less educated or less lucky than others.

Thanks for the forum for being a place where we can all come and share what is news or how we came to be here. Thanks for kind thoughts from Bear and Jellybean28. God bless all.

Bear~
17th February 2010, 09:50 AM
Silly me...I thought I'd try to get closer to him...change things...one last chance~

He joined webcamclub...the night before I have a night off from work ;o)

Dakereb
18th February 2010, 03:03 AM
I'm very sorry for you, Bear. He's got an addition, and is in denial.

As you might know from my previous posts, my wife won't have sex with me, at least not willingly. We talked about it again yesterday. She said she has to have it on a strict schedule, once a month, so that she has time to get "mentally prepared" for it. By "mentally prepared," she means so she can work up the nerve to do something she strongly dislikes. As I mentioned, when we've done it, twice now, she just lays there. I told her this is the equivalent of her letting me use her body to masturbate, and, though she thought that to be a crude statement, she did not disagree. She goes through a lot of trouble, wearing a nightie, lighting candles. But it's all to try to get herself up to it.

I'll be patient. I've waited this long, so I'll just keep working with her. At least she's trying. But there is a deeper problem. She told me again this week that she just does not love me. She thinks of me as a friend, but there is no love. She might be able to some day enjoy sex, but she says it could take years to get to that point.

She feels no love, no desire for sex. I wish I were strong enough to just forgo sex altogether, but I know I am not that strong. I need it. If a woman came on to me now, I'd fall.

1aokgal
18th February 2010, 05:11 AM
Dear Dakereb...

My long post and you have where am at here. He will have time off for illness . I will work really hard to compensate for sharp drop in income while he can't work during tratment. We borrowed ahead from a retirement fund so that comes in next week. That is a shame to have to do that but thank God, we had a large fund to borrow from there. I step up my work from the home on the internet. The last two days I work through our taxes and find to my horror there may be some taxes due instead of refund, as we always overpay. If I don't get all the deductions possible that would be a terrible hit at this time. It would be the first time in years and it hits now. I am almost rigid with anxiety as I work through the rest of this paperwork tomorrow. My husband never entered into any of the financial details of the home. I was always the one who bought the home, vehicles and took care of finances. He was never here. The home was purchased through a settlement of mine. He was out of the country when I bought and sold houses. Yes, usually the men do this?

Today he dropped off to pick up form for a renewed passport when we were out to run errands. That is funny. He is here two weeks for his treatments. He aready thinks ahead to fact when he finishes a month in treatment he can go work on some outgoing ship. I think my jaw set tighter to see the form. Funny reaction. I suppose it just hit me again how I wish my life might be "normal" and it will never be that if he can help it. I
resent him for that. My mood became icy and he sure noticed I clammed up tight. I am used to keep my mouth shut and just let him do what he will.

I had a longing for my "almost lover," the man who shared my thoughts and became a friend and also courted me for over a year. I miss now his calls and emails. I miss him. Maybe he supplied the emotional kindness I lacked here? In any case, I regret I cut him off but it seemed unfair to develop a pseudo relationship that might be unwise. Now I wish I could talk to him. I may email and see how he is doing. Unwise? Who cares. I am angry with this vacuum I live in and started to pick up weight. I must turn this around. I think the passport issue triggered some hurt feelings. I psychoanalyze myself and say at that moment I was quite upset.

Ladies here, understand this introjected anger. Dakereb, it seems a long empty life, doesn't it?

Sorry for your "long suffering wife" who has to prepare herself to love her husband. Did you ever want to just squeeze her around the throat? I can imagine in your place..I would. That is passion!

Bear, I think these times we hit the wall it is to feel the "emptiness." Seems as if we are in this life and walk alone.
Today he said.."What would I do without you?" I am so useful in so many ways. The answer? He should .....get a realtor, get a bookeeper, get an auditor, hire a tax preparer." This because I muddle through these tax preparations each year as well as any accountant. I hate doing it. I so long to sew today and yesterday instead of do this task.

Bear~
19th February 2010, 12:36 AM
Dakereb,

Thank you for your Words*


He does have an addiction...caught on to that 2 children...too late*

Last time I had the feeling I should move forward and just work on "us"...I found out he had been online having affairs with 6 different women. For a whole year I was treated like the maid that couldn't get things right.

He claimed this was due to his anger at me because one of my older boys moved in with us before he went into the service...something I will never regret doing!

I found out then as we went thru our first couple therapy...he had started with magazines, then strip clubs, prostitutes in the clubs...his idea of sex was looking and then touching himself*

There was a long history of him being too shy to approach women...he has a very mechanical act when
we did have sex...actually asked me if I thought my son was still with his girlfriend in the middle of it one time. Like he felt he needed to make conversation while he worked on a project*

I feel your pain...I hunger for that old "can't wait to get you alone...can't let you go" feeling.

Unlike 1AokGal...I took a lover for a while...and don't regret anything but, letting him go*

I work with the elderly...have for 25 years now...they are full of Wisdom* The running Theme with them is "in the End, you only regret what you DID NOT do"~ I find that true already...and have been with many of them as they pass on to the next Realm.

I'm feeling I may fall this summer too...so I understand where you're coming from. Sex is good but, I miss the warmth of smiling eyes and the arms that held me so tight I couldn't bring mySelf to leave*

I feel the "emptiness." Seems as if we are in this life and walk alone. You said it so well Girl...sadly so*

Dakereb
19th February 2010, 04:57 AM
Claudette, I think it's fairly common for the wife to be the accountant of the household. My wife is. She actually enjoys it, though. Plus she doesn't really trust me with it! She is really very good at it.

I can sympathize with your wanting to get back with your "almost lover". I would be concerned, however, that you may feel guilty doing that while your "husband" is dealing with a potentially life-threatening illness. Can't say I'd blame you, though. Only you can answer that.

Well Bear, I can't say anything that I am sure you don't already know. An addict in denial cannot be helped. He has to truly lose everything, hit bottom, before he will realize what an idiot he has been. My yes, I so very much long for arms to hold me lovingly, and eyes that see my heart. Guys rarely admit to themselves that they have this need, so it feels odd to me to admit it here. But it's true, I need it and miss it. My wife and I have too many financial entanglements to really consider divorce, but emotional divorce happened a long time ago. I suspect I'll eventually find someone in similar straights to work out a mutually beneficial arrangement, if you know what I mean. The more we explore our problems with the counselor the clearer it becomes to me that it just will never be the fullfilling relationship I need. Time to acknowledge it and stop torturing myself with idealistic dreams.

1aokgal
22nd February 2010, 08:34 PM
Dakereb...

True, I would never trust him with the financial reins here. After years of my buying the properties, handling all financial buys and decisions it is clear I am most gifted at this. It is silly to wish differently. I knew he was no financial whiz when we married. I don't fault him for that.
Households that both write checks usually do not have savings.

I sure am worried about the finances now as we don't get big input of my end by slowdown in internet sales but I stepped up output so lots of new things there. It has to pay off sooner or later. It always has done well. I don't say anything to him as it is enough on his plate now for his treatment and getting better. Got a whopper of first MED bill AFTER insurance. I won't write a check but make partial payments and that is new for us. Must keep hold of the money until we get more into the pot. WE accessed savings on one account but I still have two other accounts left to just gather interest.

Good thing I am a hoarder at times of plenty even though I thought we would always do well. I decided we would drive two cars until they are stone old rather than buy a new one as We always had in past. So no payments on things. Good thing as we would be in a pit by now if that was the case.

He is home now to recover. He never took time off in the past. He was never here. There are times I wonder what would have happened if he had been here and there had been some counselling. Funny, he even now never discusses or ever thinks there is a problem. No sex is still a problem fo rme even after 18 years. That is funny. I would consider I would never think about it but it still occupies part of my life...the sadness...the place where love used to be. I suppose that will go into the box with me someday that emptiness that never passes.
Some things help. The love of my pets. The things I create. I suppose all of us here feel this in some way?

That comes from young years of bare survival and I swore I would work three jobs if need be, and did. That is where it comes fom today..that savings cushion. Even with good insurance illness can sure make a hit on most peoples' best laid plans.

I will email the friend. He is close to my heart in many ways and not a happy man either. I see no good in exploring a mutual meetings or such. I see more as a friend, an one I think well of for his decency. He is also rather brilliant and successful and unusually kind at times. I liked that about him. We are two trains passing on separate tracks, I got that. Had I been of a different mind it would have been a lovely affair of caring people. Perhaps that makes it sticky and dangerous..and I didn't need the stress. I am a poor liar and worse adventureous....I am too grounded.

My husband is a sweet man, devoted, loving and sexless. Sad..for he has been my great love. I think, Dakereb, you live in fantasy and live close to the vest in how you feel about right and wrong too. Doubtless you will muddle through your years angry and missing out on a lot before you would ever decide the camels back has broken. Financial intracacies..family tentacles, community appearance..we have all that past a certain age. You will stay where you are at...wishing. Wish you a happy day.

Bear, your story is too tragic for words. I could not deal with all that. Sexless is terrible, but the knowledge of all the deceits and lies is too much. How heartbreaking. My "other woman" is his addiction to work and he meets his own needs. No women needed there! Wonder why he married? I sure don't get it.
Hugs for you.

Dakereb
28th February 2010, 01:02 AM
Well,Derek, I will just never be a "player". I would have to bury my concience on another planet, and even then it would feel wrong. A lot of people would think me justified to just have a single affair, yet it is just not in me to do it. My choice is to either ignore my conscience or have no sex. I've chosen no sex. I sleep well with that decision.

Bear~
28th February 2010, 02:03 PM
Derek,

I don't know what is more Humorous the stories you tell, or the fact that you take time from such adventures to post them! I shared them with the other Nurses at work and we were in tears laughing...made the night go by~

Bear~
2nd March 2010, 03:24 PM
Dakereb,

You are a Wonderful Man..not a somatic narcissist! Stay Strong* Work on Healing and Building You! I relate to how destructive these sad feelings are to your Soul*

Now that you know it's her...and not you. Take time to get to know what you want...and then go get it~

I wish you the Best (((HUG))) Bless You

Dakereb
3rd March 2010, 02:58 AM
Bear, I appreciate the very kind words! You've gone through much, and you give much, I know it is difficult. Your moral support here really helps. On the theme of "building" me, I've taken up a task, to do something every day that I should do but do not want to do. So I am exercising daily now. I'm a fairly thin guy, average to small framed, so even a little blubber (funny word) shows. Burning a few extra calories is good, but there is something about the chemical changes the exercise creates that calms me. Before I do it, I dread it, but afterwards I feel much better.

Anyway, take care of yourself. Your husband has quite a deep problem there, and there is not much you can do about it. All you can do is react to it in a way to protect yourself from the emotional pain.

1aokgal
3rd March 2010, 08:26 AM
Dear All..

I check on you from time to time and always find mutual support in your stories and even in your pain find comfort to know I am not alone in the wish life had gone a different path. I hope you keep well, Bear, the things you have encountered can injure ones' soul so you need a lot of nurture to get through that. I think I immerse myself in the business and activities and can almost forget for long periods of time. It is the love I have to create that helps.

Derek is one of those exhibitionist types except with no raincoat. I think more of these tales are fantasy, not reality. Certainly, he is a stud in his own mind! When one has lady pros... the deed is a sure thing and never a contest a good man wins. So where is the pride there? While customers keep the gals in groceries it is sad to think of the deception to Dereks' mate and the promise he made at the inception of that marriage. No one deserves infidelity as a game.

I think in this case, it is less a game it is more a sad need.need... than it is a sad obsession. A sex addict is a person with a drug hab, an obsession. This is addiction the same as any other substance one takes too often for the wrong reasons. It dulls the pain for a time. Is that a coping mechanism or the product of ill spent time?

Derek,
I am curious, why do you come to this site? Is it for encouragement and comeraderie or to brag/invent tales about your compulsions? Is this to titillate yourself at the expense of others who must wade through unsavory details most here do not care to share?

I bet it can be safely said, many here are adults and some have secret lives and encounters which we don't parade out for others. Instead we discuss mutual strengths or coping mechanisms to live happier and more productive lives in our marriages or relationships. Obviously, this forum is not a SEX line or body exchange mill so we respect others and help, not hurt, where we can. You hit and run here as you do in brothels. You don't tell us what compells a man to live an aimless life indulging in sex with girls his grandaughters age or why you feel that solves the marriage problems. I get it that perhaps you were married before and never stayed in a committed rlationship?

What was there about your wife you cared enough to marry and became committed at least in name. You live instead in a one way open marriage (at least on your part.) Did you ever love another....more than narcissistic self?

It sounds to me like you are a man drowning and not able to find a lifeline. In that thought, you have my pity.
It is sad to be lonely and feel no one cares for you unless there is an exchange of goods. That is not caring....it is useage and is a two way street. A hooker gets the money and you get the lay. A cold transaction of funds.

I wish you could look in a mirror with an idea of what compels your actions. I would like to understand you and not just be offended by the outward stuff we know about you here. I don't belive the stories....I just wonder what compels the telling.

Dakereb
5th March 2010, 05:11 AM
Holy moly, this friend has been seeing a 23 year-old for seven years? That means she was 16 when he first hooked up with her. Sounds like statutory rape to me.

I don't know, all this just doesn't seem to have the ring of truth to it. Who keeps a running tally of the number of "dates" one has with a stripper? Oh well, it matters not a whit. I am sure most men reading these posts can see the emptiness of it all. At best it's a coping mechanism, but it sure seems hollow to me, and stunningly expensive,too! And at the end of it all, what do you have? Gonorrhea.

1aokgal
5th March 2010, 08:09 AM
Dear Dakereb,

I agree completely with your assessment of the emptiness of encounters although I don't buy the whole package. Much sounds like cold calculated anger at the spouse and the strange thing is Derek did not answer the question from his wife when she attempted to open that subject. He did not want to hurt her?

Dear Derek,

You write wonderfully about emotion and feeling and the love you had for the cute, petite blonde you married. Given a time when you could have revealed the problem you have you kept the secret and did not discuss what made her ask the question. It is extraordinary that you describe the inner you so well but fail to address the underlying abnormality of how you choose to compress emptiness with various partners. You try to be close to someone yet it is a commodity. You run in a herd with the buddies and discuss the various notches achieved as if it was scores at poker.

I appreciate you answered my questions and respect the fact you seem so emotional about the love you felt for another. I feel your pain to recall something that is no more. It is a pain I share and others here to recall love that we knew. We long to go back in time and BE that person again. There is an innocense about love when even a lovers breath beside us is exciting and comforting. It is a height of the senses and the reason poets expound on the emotion as they knew it and we all wish we could walk again in that path.

It is still real for me, the feeling I had for him years ago. I had lovers who were better, more sensual and exciting. He was never the great lover but there was a sweetness in the times we shared. The bond was like an invisible string from him to me. The truth is I always knew him nearby before I heard his call. He also is not the humorist. I am lighter by nature and take frustrations well and pass them off. The complications of his nature perhaps made him interesting. He always amazed me that he is so well read and knowledgeable. There is respect I feel for his good mind. On the short term, he is forgetful and overlooks things as he focuses elswhere. My nature tends to be precise for I plot and plan. He does not handle money well though he is a high earner and dislikes decisions having to do with that.
So I was the one who made plans and followed through to see things got accomplished.

The thing that amazes me is his regard for me in every way except intimately. He is concerned for my health and tends to be a caretaker. I still yearn for his body and find the vacuum of him an anomaly. I also despise the fact he never got it that I could have a lover pretty darn fast. There were always interested parties because I stayed attractive and sensual enough to be noticed often.
It is hard for me to pin why I didn't just live a double life since it would be so easy for me to have it all. He works elsewhere much of the time. Either I did not see in another what I perceived in him, or I lost my own sexuality and pulled inward. Part self confidence or part that I am relieved to be out of the pleasing another game? Who knows! Maybe after such a life for years the one with desires loses it as well.

I sometimes think of the male friend who pursued for such along time. I liked him and enjoyed his presence as male with a gleam in the eye. I just could not translate that into an affair even though I knew he cared about me. As an objective, he would have moved on rather than waste efforts with my timing. There was a softness I felt about him but it was not the earth shaking emotion I felt for my husband. I dislike my husband at times for the neglect of something so fine. I feel sad and don't like the thought I did not deserve such treatment. That is when I rationalize the facts and then I know he did not choose to be as he is now. I think he always had problems with women and intimacy. There was history of another relationship and she left him over the no sex relationship. That should have been a kick in the head for me. DUUUUHHH, I learned the facts and this did not sink into my memory banks at that time.

Too bad, Derek, you don't try a dialogue with your wife. Say the things you used to say to her. Maybe that would be worth the effort? Maybe she misses how you used to be as well?
Perhaps one day I can put the desire aside and forget love as it was.

dalesman
6th March 2010, 09:19 PM
Derek,
Last week I spent a few days away on business with some colleagues . We went to a lap dancing club, which was a new experience for me. It was OK if you like silicone enhanced Barby dolls all looking bored to death.

All over the club there were groups of guys having a good night out with friends. Dotted about were single men sat alone. These men were not having a good time. They were staring intently at the girls in a real spooky way. It made me realise that it is these men, men undoubtedly like you who are unable to make normal relationships that pay for sex with hookers.

I note that you constantly use the word "Date" when referring to your sex contacts. That is a highly unusual term to use. Dating suggests some sort of normal relationship. You also used the term "mistress" once again a term not usually used when describing the relationship between hooker and punter.

It made me realise that your real fantasy is to be involved in a relationship. That is why you insist on using the term "Date" . Perhaps you should examine the reason why you are unable to form relationships in the normal way. You may find out why your wife withdrew from sex with you. Maybe it would be a good idea to do this before the money runs out.

As I have said in a previous post to you, I too enjoy the company of younger ladies. I am currently dating a lovely stunning intelligent girl who is 23 , yes Derek real life dating, no money changes hands. She is a professional actress and stage dancer and also does stand up comedy. I don't lavish gifts on her or pay for her company . She is so fit I could not keep up with her even with a lorry load of Viagra !!! Soon she will be gone as she has a new contract working on a cruise ship. I will miss her.

However we still enjoy each others company. Last night I took her out for a meal with my son and his girlfriend. My son asked her "what on earth do you see in my old dad ?" She smiled and said " I just enjoy his company and he thinks my jokes are funny" Enough said.

1aokgal
7th March 2010, 05:30 AM
Dalesman..

Congratulations, you are a really grounded man to be able to catch the fantasy life in the sex life of Derek. He is having transactions and not dates. Women will smile to get the money. Even if a customer is loathsome of unsavory, they smile and say encouraging things to get the act over quickly hence to get on to the next client. Time is money.

These are not "dates" where a guy tries to please the woman. He is in it strictly to meet his "G" spot and not hers. She gets the money and not the climax. He is one of the crowd and she play acts through to get home to husband, boyfriend, or pimp combination of these. Nothing is normal about this way of life and the most abnormality is the fantasy carried by the men involved. Also when the money runs out the "date" is not available. She does not give her opinion or talk about how small is his...well, that one!

Sorry the friend is leaving but maybe a lady will appear who is a more favorable match and not just a time killer. Women keep really attractive and age is deceptive. Age is often how one thinks. Nice to hear your opinion and hope you find another lady you like soon.

dalesman
7th March 2010, 08:15 PM
1aokgal & Bear,
Thanks for your nice comments, for a time I was baffled why Derek wished to post on this site until the penny dropped and I realised his posts are mere fantasy and that his real problem is a need to feel part of a relationship. I noticed that the punters at the pole dancing club were all loners.

As for you two , my sympathies are with you both as I too was once involved in a sexless relationship which lasted for 15 years, so I know something of your emotions. Eventually my ex admitted that she loved me dearly as a brother but not as a husband. It took many years to get over the feeling of inadequacy and regain my confidence. I well remember the first sexual relationship I had after me and the ex parted. It was amazing to have sex with someone who wanted to have sex with me and it was odd going from nothing to 3 or 4 times a week.

One thing I have learned over the years is that true happiness comes from within and is not dependant on anyone else .

1aokgal
9th March 2010, 04:39 AM
Dalesman..

My husband is home every day as he is getting treatment for the illness. This is the longest time I have seen him at one time in years. We never talk about personal issues (or any issues really) I just go about my tasks and he helps out here and there.

It is life at its' finest in a vacuum of nothing. Thank God, for the lifetime channel and a good movie now and again. This is as it will be until death us do part. What was there is a dead issue and it is too late to imagine a life other than here. It is strange to say it this...but it is truth, that was how my great grandmother, my grandmother and mother all passed the life. They were in the same type marriages. They shared separate lives and separate rooms at the end, under the same roofs.

How common is that?

dalesman
9th March 2010, 10:31 PM
My case was different in that my ex and I had a good emotional relationship and it was only sex that hardly ever happened. Even now after 15 years apart we still buy each other Christmas and birthday presents, and I treat her daughter from her second marriage like a grandchild. We still often talk on the phone and can spend over an hour just chatting. On the other hand I think your situation is very common in my own experience.

My mum and dad have been married for 51 years and have completely separate lives. Even in retirement they spend no time together although they treat each other with respect. I don't think I have ever once seen any evidence of an emotional bond between them. I know that neither has been very happy but both chose to stay together for their own reasons.

My father went to boarding school from a very early age and grew up in a time and place where men did not show any emotion . He has always been a dutiful and good provider . As a father he was distant and aloof , unable to feel part of our loving and demonstrative family. Even when he had a cancer scare he remained totally mater of fact, dealing with it on his own.

As a result I have always had a relationship with him that is completely devoid of outward signs of emotional love and we are very formal towards each other. Although I respect, admire and love him, I would be simply unable to show love or affection its just not possible. The die becomes cast and after so many years , change becomes impossible. I am sure that when the time comes for us to say our last goodbyes we will shake each other formally by the hand.

I wonder if deep down your husband loves you deeply and just cannot show it.

1aokgal
11th March 2010, 07:21 AM
Hi Dalesman..

I know that my husband does love me. When he leaves for treatments in the early AM he does not wake me but to say he loves me and a kiss and out the door. He has no time for coffee or a bite until later and he prefers to go for the hour 6-7AM and home before I am awake to feed and care for the animals. He cooks for me when I like something and always asks what I like to do. He is strongly emotionally dependent on me and I do all the finances and buy the property or make the big decisions.

He is a high earner..puts it automatically in my account but expense money as he needs. He is most often away for long periods of time since he is merchant marine officer. He loves the life and sees the world. I saw the world already and am happy to see not as much of it now. The home is mine, free and no mortgage because I made it that way. We like similar things, music, foods and share views on many things. We just don't share sex for all these years and I am female and look years younger and wish it is was differnt. It just will never be that way.

Now he is home I think to get him to see a shrink. I think he would go but I would be a dreamer to imagine that makes a cured assexual person into a man who knows/desires to please or even talk like a sexual being.

The part that gets me, is I had an admirer on my track the last almost full year who sent me lovely emails and made sometimes breathy phone calls. He would have taken me to where I would like to be with an intimate life and with a concerned person. I still think of him often and wish I could dial his cell phone or send him an email. I just feel it is unfair to open a door to a relationship unless I mean to hold up my end. He also may have moved on as he is a hunk, well off, professional and much younger. He was beautifully attentive and good for me. Truthfully, I miss him a lot and cared for hom. He was hurt at my send off. When I ran into him awhile back and found him again to be as friendly as a puppy dog. I had to be rather aloof. My heart was not in that charade. I just felt he would take anything else as encourgement . I also think I needed brakes on my feeling so glad to see him.

I just could not risk an almost 30 yr marriage and turned that temptation aside. I am not one who lies well. Deceptions are hard for me. SO it was not my great moral character that played safe it was the sure knowledge that complications generally arise from such situations. As I said, I am a darn grounded person.

I see now I have picked up a few pounds and have gotten a bit depressed. I have never been patient with whiners and don't like that in myself so must get this turned around. Back to the gym and my longer dog walks before I slip beyond my threshhold here. I guess that is just stinking thinking.

I never doubt I still love my husband. I am just greatly disappointed at his failure to nourish our intimate relationship.

dalesman
11th March 2010, 09:30 PM
1aokgal,
I am honored that you took the time and trouble to re tell your story as I know you have posted on this subject many times. I have little to contribute which has not already been said however I will just make several points.

Firstly I think after the completion of his cancer treatment he may be amenable to changing or at least to some honest talking about sex so that would be an ideal time to go to councelling. Cancer is so very often a attitude changing experience.

Secondly whilst some people have higher sex drives than others , I dont personally believe that completly asexual humans exist, but that some people withdraw from sex, either for emotional or physical reasons . His loving emotional actions also do not stack up with asexuality. I am therefore convinced there is a reason behind your husbands odd behavior.

You say he is very emotionly dependant on you which is very odd for a man who spends long periods away from you by choice and continues to do so even though you are financially secure.
I wonder just how dependant he really is.

I wonder if he sees you as a mother figure which would explain the warmth without sexual desire.

In my experience it is very difficult to make the transition from platonic to sexual partner. Ive been there, done it ,got the tee shirt. It feels weird believe me.

I cant comment on your desision to turn down love elsewhere. But I am sure you have done what is right for you. You are obviously a very wise person and you will work through this one way or another.

My best wishes to you.

1aokgal
13th March 2010, 06:07 AM
Hi Dalesman...

Thanks for reminding me that posting doesn't serve the purpose of cheap psychiatry to understand another human being. The only person we should really try to understand is ourselves. We just do our best each of us, to deal with whatever is our lot in life we selected or is foisted upon us with circumstances.

The person who posts here has moments and the rest of the time I can do really well making life work out OK. It seems that a non-sexual marriage is becoming more norm than we, here, like to admit. It is an anomaly and has a genesis somewhere perhaps in our partners childhood inhibitions or maybe it is the erosive quality of relationships of many years. In my life, it is a greater crisis because we don't discuss it as a topic. If I raise the topic at all it is dismissed or I get a blank stare and he changes location. That means it does not exist. Talking about this here Ad Nauseum does not change the picture..it is a pattern of too many years.

I think the choice of my husbands' occupation is in itself a lust for travel which is true. It is also fact these giant engines are located on ships and that is a high paid specialty. He will continue that career for some years until he retires. No shore station offers that much money.
It is a rather lonely, transient occupation and dangerous.

I appreciate your observation that cancer is life altering and may cause some introspection. Perhaps he will be really agreeable to some counselling. Others see us together and think we have this great marriage. He holds my hands across a table. I don't see that in many couples over 50. The feeling of caring is there but....It would be nice to have a "normal"
marriage. I will approach this subject with a date set already for counselling. Thanks for the idea.

1aokgal
13th March 2010, 07:20 AM
Derek..

A "mistress" is generally a term used to denote a live-in girfriend or one of regular relationship as dinners, outings, etc. That is NOT about a mistress (or a DATE). If such a person exists..I wonder about this..the sex is similar to a piece of pizza you have once or twice a week. There until it is gone and over. No relationship exists.

As to the idea she looks forward or anticipates??? I look forward to the day the deposit is in my account. It is PAYDAY. Why don't you discuss the life you share with the wife and kids? Does that exist either?

If the hooker marries, the guy is likely clued in about her activities. It is likely he is her PIMP and lives off her efforts. Birds of a feather flock together, perhaps he is turned on by her spicy talents and her earned money means he can live life with ease. A troublesonme thing you said,"She has ADMITTED to doing one other client!" Hello, she may have 10 clients or more. Are you disease conscious with all this play going on....if it does? The over 50 crowd is now the ones with HIV statistics as they "don't think it can happen to them!" Is that a concern for you? If not, it should be.

Derek, these postings seem delusional to me. While I don't mean to be unkind.....they have the aroma of an exhibitionistic airing of wishful thinking. It sounds rather like a teenage boy who might talk in grandiose terms about his insignifant member as a larger than life edition.

Derek, we appreciate your sharing FEELINGS, as those you felt toward the wife years back. Disallusionment, discontent are all part of the getting older or having many years with a partner and losing touch. Have you tried to make the relationship better at home? Do you have any intimate relationship in the marriage or is that a too-personal inquiry? It seems there is some raunchy sharing here so that would not seem a very revealing fact after a sex statisitics on a regular basis.

1aokgal
22nd March 2010, 08:11 PM
Dear Derek..

It seems the sex meetings take the place of other activities in your life.
A monotone existence at best. It sounds like eating mashed potatoes in place of all the other delicasies that life has to offer. After the immediate gratification there seems to be the period afterwards where you are alone again. There is no hugging, whispering or holding somone you care about but you are getting back to work or leaving. Do you feel stripped, angry and sad?
You are alone with your own company. I fear from what you relate here that you do not like yourself. The "quick fix" of paid sex with a hooker (not girlfriend) is an escape from dealing with the reality of an empty and meaningless life.

I wonder why you don't reach beyond this mode and find out if you have interests and talents that lie unexplored that you would enjoy? For myself, I paint....I sew...beautiful items that bring pride that I created them. They also tend to make me money as others like them.
I create artwork that will survive me and that others treasure. While I made these things and long after the making of them, I feel good about the time I invested there.

Personally, I admire talented people who grow gardens. They surround themselves with beauty from the time they sow the seeds to brighten their part of the earth. I wish I had that ability! Plants die instantly around me. Some make gardens of PEOPLE as they invest time in becoming a volunteer at a hospital or rehab center. They give of themselves unselfishly to help another find wellness and wholeness. They invest the time and see the rewards of that passion. That is a rewarding thing to do. Most seem to have a special glow of happiness.

Your wife invests in her family. Now she puts of herself in the grandchildren. For myself, I feel we don't reside long on this earth. Perhaps that means I am in a hurry to leave some of me there for someone else. In your choice of lifestyle.....You don't get much because you give nothing. There is no substance as it is all very transitory. What is there to show you have been here? Just because our children are grown..we still have some obligation to be part of their lives and to invest what we can in their children. Your life really seems very sad and loney. That must be sad for you and I can see you would be depressed but for the "drug" of spending time for a few minutes with strangers who use you for money.

Since this sex partner has her life ( and you are her work.) She is quick to trot out to the next customer and leaves you behind. You are like a will of the whisp and you seem hardly there. You can't love. No one loves you because you have turned your back on what you could nourish and make fulfilling. Sorry I can't give you a hug.....because you seem to have no one. You must be very lonely.

Have you considered to try your hand at painting or some skill where you can express these feelings? Nothing like a mix of paint to say," I am angry" or , " I feel like hell." We have some famous paintings from some angry men. Next thing that happens when one begins to paint is a great deal of time has passed. Most find satisfaction to see things they have created as I do.

Many people take their problems and search to find their source as yoga, meditation and understanding the spiritual part of ones' self. They go get therapy. Some take up dancing or some fun hobby. I urge you to take time to see the big picture of how you must dislike yourself. The other buddy? That is no friend, but a fellow addict. One can pull the other deeper into a dark world indeed.

In 1999, I bought a great new luxery boat, 24 foot cabin cruiser with kitchenette, head and wall to wall carpeting. Quite a beauty and a joy to own. I signed up and joined the Coast Guard Auxilairy as a Captain in uniform and went on 7.5 years of helping others in water patrols and rescues. Bet the money you have blown on sex would be a good start on a luxery car or boat or something you might enjoy more than "here today and gone in a half hour?" My boat waits for me at the marina, launched and in the water in 15 minutes.

I am only a woman but that boat sure seems a greater luxery use of money than to rent cute pool guys or young guys who look good in the buff. They would take the money and laugh later at the old person they robbed. Kind of like what happens when you are used up.

Read a book. Go to the website of Luciano Pavarotti and listen to a golden voice that reaches out to every man who ever hears him. I listen to that sound on a regular basis. I ask myself what can I do to bring my little talents to better use? How can I make my life a beautiful piece of music ? How can I lift myself so I feel wonderful for today?

I would feel wonderful today if you would value yourself one little bit more. It would make me happy to know you could smile and consider to try a different path to deal with your situation there. I wonder if you can invest in yourself to make your life special? Perhaps some time in the future you can smile and look at something special. You might even want to smile at things you accomplished or like that you invest in others and they speak well of you.

I bet the wife is still the same pretty blonde (inside) you loved and she still loves you. I bet she would do anything to find you again. If only you would reach out to her, you might be surprised and find you have been wrong and she cares deeply for you. Would you think about that?

1aokgal
24th March 2010, 08:09 PM
Hi Derek..

You apprise your situations pretty factually except to dwell on the real life of the hooker in depth. It hints of an emotional attachment on your part, which she does not share. She prepares to cement her relationship with the real person in her life. You are a part of her monthly income or retirement plan. As you say, it is like leasing a fine auto which gives one no permanent rights. So long as payments are made you can benefit for those blocks of time she has alloted to you. Basically, a lot of your money went out the window.

It is sure not my intent to criticize your life choices. I feel your posting here because you have a desire to get feedback from others. I don't think you post here to proselytize your lifestyle as one that would be ideal or reasonable for most who want to solve marital problems. The forums' emphasis seems to feel that marriage is important. I agree with that in theory.

I think your marriage is important as well. Derek, I wonder why you choose to operate more as a schoolboy gone truant than a responsible man who seeks to mend areas where you and your mate may have lost some of the zest you once shared? You convert the dual assets of two in marriage to your sole use in a narcissitic romps for the next best moment of sexual gratification. That implies an emptiness of values and character that does not sound in sync with a man that lady you married selected for a life partner. Maybe I attribute values to her character because she seems grounded and caring. You care about the moment.

How is your relationship to your children? Do you see much of them and do they live in your area? It also seems you have a work environment you value. As you indicate, there is a lot of money spent on this diversion of yours. You describe yourself as a marathon runner close to the end trying to do the best you can. I think all of us over a certain age want to make time count and have value for the time invested.

Perhaps you can talk to someone about the situation as a counselor, minister or someone who can help with some insight on why a man would risk all for some moments of escape. I have not got a lot of insight on my situation either and probably see it as you do...beyond fixing. I do think my selection of outlets may be healthier choices and bring longer time investment. In fact, in a couple weeks I will be out on the water and enjoy every day of that pastime.
It belongs to me. This is not a short term rental.

marriedman9000
25th March 2010, 04:38 AM
Hi wow, seems like this is a real common problem. I'm a man married for 10 yrs with a wife who won't put out for 9.5 yrs. sex is like once a mth or once in 2mths. This sucks big time. we had the pastoral counsel twice, the quarrels, begs, talks and honeymoon vacations. I'm considering divorce or an affair can anyone help?

1aokgal
26th March 2010, 03:59 PM
Dear marriedman9000...

We hear and understand the pain you feel at this situation in your home. As you read here we are all dealing with this issue in different ways. We all just do the best we can to live happy, balanced lives with a huge area of our lives empty and sad. We also try to understand, " What the h...?"
Welcome.

Counselling helps many couples. If she is willing to go then youat least have dialogue AT ALL that is promising.

1aokgal
27th March 2010, 06:32 AM
Derek...

Sorry, the solution you have chosen works only for one person...YOU. Your wife got left out of any solution. She may find your performances deficient because men who use hookers or their hands for outlets don't care if a partner is satisfied nor is there "foreplay." Your foreplay is money exchanging hands.

A "gentlemen" or a REAL man would go live single instead of entrapping a partner in a loveless, sexless marriage with a man intent on using marital assets to meet his own selfish needs. You may have spent boat money or college money but I would say you are a "whelcher" in the field of life. You made promises you break every day. You are so disgusted by the hooker who does all the guys though she excells by practice, you say. She has plently of partners to learn new tricks. Her husband to be is probably one great PIMP who drives a good luxery car by what she makes on her back. That is usually the case. He is no cuckold he is her supplier and supporter.

You mentioned this paid hooker and her future intent to go to law school? Most law schools have reference sheets for prospective applicant students. Good references from business people generally required for consideration. Good schools have more candidates than spots and L-SATS are the testing tool that weeds out the dummies and unfit. She makes so much money on lunch time johns she will crack no books to study for those rigorous tests. You disrespect her and speak of her as a slime while you use her services. Basically, it is the same way you speak of your wife.

Derek, sorry too say it but you are an outstanding candidate for a real empty human being.... lacking in conscience.... to realize what you do to yourself. You also don't think what you do to your family if your secret life is discovered. Better yet, since you care so little about the wife, why don't you do her a favor and go your way? You would be shocked how easily a woman can recover from living with someone so empty once she knows the score. Do you rely on her income as well to support your athletic
activities? You are not going to get "Man of the year" here on the forum by most. I think it is safe to say like any addict you have convinced yourself that you are righteous in the cheating infidelity in the frequenting of whores you pay from the assets of your marriage.

I might mention too..Sex has a very strong odor.
If you engage in that sport and return to work after lunch you might consider a shower before the word spreads around that there is a strange scent about Derek.
The whole thing is you have a belief system there is validation for you or any man to check out of the marriage when things get slow!

I will put it to you that you probably are a very poor lover with no tact, technique, finesse or ability. Perhaps that performance droops so bad that only a girl half your age fits the bill to spark up your member. That is not being a real man! There is no loss to your lady if that was the case. Marriage takes work, belief and idealism to keep it fresh and
make love last. It takes two do make that happen. You bagged out. You are no asset to your family and it seems only a matter of time before your house falls in flames.

Hopefully, there will be assets left for your wife to begin anew. You will be a used up and broke old guy. Stories get around and your reputation as a guy with a family and all that facade will just blow apart. What will you do when that happens?

Dakereb
27th March 2010, 07:29 AM
Um, Derek, the suggestion that guys in sexless marriages go out to clubs and pick up paid sex partners isn't exactly something they haven't already thought of. I think many people post here because that's not what they really want. Suggesting they do that is like suggesting they go to a restaurant if they're hungry. I believe they're here to see if they can learn how to cook their own meals.

You've offered your perspective, and we all pretty much understand it. If you want it, you'll find people here who will look past the crassness of it and see the human being behind the posts and the suffering that drives him or her. That is offered to you here, with particularly well considered observations by 1aokgal. She's tried to look past your crowing about conquests to see what must have driven you to look for this site in the first place. That's what you'll find here. If that's not what you want, perhaps you might search elsewhere.

1aokgal
30th March 2010, 05:49 AM
Hi Dakereb...

Well said, and my sentiments absolutely.

On this forum entry page there is a statement which describes this blogging place as, "the one place to come to shape, enrich, maintain or repair your marriage!" Most of us arrive here because we fit somewhere in that arena. The behavior and attitude described by Derek is unacceptable behavior for any of these objectives. I see the statements that someone else " should give it a try" is as pathological as the Heroin addict hanging on a ghetto doorstep who claims that is the best way to make it in life.

I don't know if I say this from a moral viewpoint or from a religious belief system but to beckon to others hints to me of being in danger to losing ones' immortal soul. Infidelity is not a crime but it is a breaking of a moral code. We revere marriage as a sacrament between a man and a woman. It is a contract, a covenent of faith and a promise to hold to that one person. The thing I find so sad in this case is there is a total lack of any adult moral behavior.

I picture a sex addict so in love with his toys of gratification he slips out of work at noon to play so he can arrive home at the usual time. He deceptively slithers into the guise of a caring husband, father and grandfather. Then there is belief such a sick lifestyle should be the norm for others? It certainly is abnormal behavior. There are many places open to people who share that philosophy as the Playboy channel or blog but that is not true here.

The tawdry stories are pretty offensive reading material though it smacks of fantasy in action. Let us get back to the real world of making life better for those of us who care about our spouses and the quality of the best relationship we can have even with the day to day tensions and problems. I still have a healthy repect for what I wish for my marriage.

Dakereb
1st April 2010, 04:02 AM
Marriedman9000, I do have some advice for you. Your post was very short, but it had a few clues to work with. Based on the phrase "put out" to refer to sex, and the seemingly dismissive attitude toward various types of counseling, I would say that there is much you can do to improve your situation by improving yourself.

My guess is that you feel pretty much entitled to sex, for the most part when and where you want it. While it is true that the wife's body belongs to the husband, it is also true that the husband's body belongs to the wife. It is a two-way street. To make that work, you each must show respect to each other. If you are disrespectful of her, you are essentially forcing her into a situation where she must give, yet not receive. Animosity results. You want her physically, but she cannot reciprocate because you have made yourself distasteful to her. For a woman to be attracted to you physically, she must be attracted to you emotionally. To you, physically, she is ice cream. To her, physically, you are brussel sprouts! Does that seem like a fair deal?

Improve yourself by learning how to care a out her as a fellow human being. Give her respect, with NO expectation that she do anything for you. Do it solely out of a desire to be a decent man. You could take that spirit and take it to counseling with you. If you do, you will likely fing the counseling to be much more beneficial.

Gerry
5th April 2010, 09:14 PM
Hi I am on the other side of most of these comments. My wife has never been very interested in sex. We have been together for 17 years (half my life), and neither of us has touched anybody else. Since getting married 5 years ago and having 2 kids its gone down to once a month.
There is no kissing or hugging. Perhaps the occasional handjob after hours of whinning.
After I *** I feel like I have let myself down in begging for such rubbish. The once a month isn't bad. But its 1/30th of what I need. I am handsome and athletic, she has always been more portley and has felt inferior to me in this relationship. I am all over her like a rash. Throwing myself at her just to get pushed away. Still I toil onwards.

Reading your stories I offer this advice. Being faithful is a fools path. Being careful and not getting caught is the way to go. I dont have the courage to do this but advise anybody that does to do it. Life is too short, get your love from your spouse. Get sex from whereever you see fit.

I have denied myself the pleasure I need for so long and have never experienced what another woman would be like. Once I start a bad habit I'll get addicted, at least that is my fear.

Sex is more important that anything if you are a sexual person. Don't be miserable.

1aokgal
7th April 2010, 04:12 AM
Hi Gerry,

Any one of us here can understand your frustration and anger that your expectations have not been met. You are right on all points to feel upset at being denied. You no longer feel attracted to your mate because she holds you hostage. You say you don't have the "nerve" to cheat yourself. I think it is more than that.
Maybe you are upset your contract seems one sided? It does sound like you are a decent guy who would hate to blow up that long time marriage over a fling with no emotional content. How about more physical outings for you and your "portly" spouse? We used to have a bike built for two and enjoyed the ride. Such a bike helps the one who might not be in the best of shape. It sure is fun and gets the mode going for outdoor activities.

We later bought the full speed bikes and went on the bike trails. Both of us got in better shape and enjoyed the outdoors.
It might mean you spend quality time and she won't feel so much the less physical one. Maybe there will be an improvement in both of your overall health AND spice up the intimate side! Try this approach..even dog walking or just the two of you sitting less and walking more. You talk as you go. . Sure is good RX for people who need physical improvement.

Before you seethe in silence and pursue, and lose your dignity with the negative response, spend the effort to see if she appreciates your efforts to change the dynamics. Television is a curse to marriages. Vicarious living at its best. Try "telly free" evenings.

If you ask me if it changed the dynamics for me.....I say YES and NO. Better relationship and health changes..still the same on intimacy. I enjoy the outings though and think I am healthier for changing sedentary to active.

1aokgal
12th April 2010, 09:09 AM
Gerry...

It is true that a marriage lacking a full intimate relationship compatible to both husband and wife is difficult and often unhappy.

The image of a man skulking off from work for a "nooner" and returning home with a Cherubic grin is not attractive or conducive to happiness either. It can also indicate compulsive and narcissistic obsession that carries over into the extreme as a wads of cash supporting a number of hookers on call.

I don't think you see yourself in that situation nor to find that lifestyle appealing. I don't think you agree with the what you have read of a playboys fantasy journal over 60. Perhaps lunch is best had at home with some work invested in improving technique and finding new ways to invigorate the marital bed? There is a new movie we saw today, "Date Night." This is a rollicking fun comedy that spells all this out for most married couples that the same old deed done the same old way gets HO-HUM and less and less frequent. It was great fun to see this couple try to add zest to life and end up being chased by the mob. The writer must have a similar marriage because he had all the situations covered nicely for laughs.


It is probably true 95% of couples wish they could go backward in time to BE the same person and to have sex with the person they married years before. The trick is finding a way to reinvent the time constraints and eliminate the unnecesary time wasters so more quality time is available for just being lovers. I do agree that SOME men are incapable of being faithful for any reason....to any woman. These are the "Peter Pan" men and they make poor husbands (and poor lovers) because they fixate solely on their own pleasure. The "Tiger Woods" type with beautiful wives and a full house, which runneth over with blessings, will still find a reason to validate their cheating and extra-curricular lives. Most women get tired of "Peter Pan men" and the self-absorption and the quantity of time for sex diminishes as the discontent takes over.

Men with bedroom problems should look in the mirror before settling the blame as only the womens' fault. Portly, out of shape husbands with poor grooming habits or less than pleasing dispositions are no bargain and not a lot of fun in the sack... say most women.

1aokgal
18th April 2010, 03:56 AM
Dear Hyme..

There are no pat answers that covers it in all cases. Some of us do substitution, sublimation, acceptance or whatever way we can find to make a life around this troublesome subject. When one person holds the other hostage there is little that CAN be done without going to the core of the problem. We can never change another person. That person has to want to find the underlying problems.

Most who are happy as it stands are in denial there is any problem. They don't care about the pain or suffering of the mate. The years just pass and one day the one who had desire finds they don't give a D.... either and just have made a life as best we can. Still there is that part of us that wishes our mate might roast in hell one day for being selfish, uncaring and devoid of any compassion. I never wanted to be a "charity chore" so set my mind to say it is just fine!" Only those who walk in these shoes can understand the pain of it.

Make yourself happy as best you can. I do think a moral person does not use professional hookers as a substitute for a marital relationship. What do you think?

Dakereb
18th April 2010, 07:59 PM
Hyme, I can sympathize with you. My wife completely denied me sex for several years, and even now she will tolerate it only once a month on a schedule.

Over the past year and a half I have made it my mission to find out what went wrong and what I did to contribute to the problem. I have done much soul-searching and learned a lot about myself. It is now clear to me that our problems result from two things; I had been too self-centered and she has been too critical of my flaws. Only one of those is under my control, so I have set about righting that wrong.

I'm a changed man now. Our relationship has changed dramatically, too. I wish I could say that we are now a loving, physical couple, but alas, that will never be. What we have, though, is a far deeper understanding of each other and a full, honest realization of why things are this way. It boils down to a fundamental mismatch of personalities. My wife was rather sheltered before we got married, and was not aware of the quirks that come with people that are a bit anxiety-driven. She took some things I did to be driven by arrogance, not aware that other issues can cause that detached demeanor. She is now well aware of what makes me tick. We've spent many, many hours discussing this and discussing her reactions to it. Unfortunately, the conclusion she has drawn is that, had she been aware of such personality types, she would have never married someone like me in the first place.

While obviously this is not the conclusion I wanted, I must say our relationship is far more harmonious. Gone are the anger and animosity. We have fun together. I accept that she will never love me in a romantic sense, but we do care about each other. While a friendship is not what I want from a marriage, it is better than what we had. Our lives are very intertwined financially so I doubt we ever divorce. But it is not intolerable anymore.

I strongly suggest you undertake a similar quest to learn what is behind this lack of intimacy. Don't worry about how it may turn out. Anything is better that living with this sort of agony. You may learn that there is something you can do to set the relationship on the right path. You will absolutely come out of it a better man, no matter what the final outcome is. Be honest with yourself and you wife when discussing problems. Vow to never be vindictive. And never fear the truth.

Geo
19th April 2010, 11:23 AM
Sex isnt everything, to me its just a way she can controll you. Just love her and go through youre hell, dont be a lowlife and cheat because god will get you. Be a good man to youre wife and try. I understand youre pain. In the long run God will bless you, and If she will not be moral in her actions and is immoral (look it up) than Bible says you can move on. Immoral means looking at porn all the time, clubbing and shaking her ass around, things like that they know.
You are good men and God will not give you more than you can handle.

1aokgal
28th April 2010, 08:48 AM
Sex isn't everything but to those of us who have many years in a sexless marriages it is a deal breaker. No day passes without a thought in the morning that another day passes today without the emotion of real love for another human being. It is hard to feel love for a person who cheats, deprives and robs a partner of the element of love that made the marriage a reality however many years ago that might be.
No matter how good a relationship might be living under the roof together is still a roomate without benefits. If I had a birthday wish or Xmas wish fulfilled it would be to know intimacy as I knew it before my husband withdrew his share of the contract to meet his own needs. When I look at him now I see a good looking man, older than the one I married, devoid of human touch or feeling. In his kindness sometimes I am remembered of the passion we could have and did before his rejection was set in stone. He is like a creature from another planet. I wonder what makes him tick?

If I had it to do over again I would have cheated and enjoyed one of the two men I knew along the way who urged me to leave this half life. One remarkable man I learned later died suddenly a few years ago. I regret sometimes a day we spent together when we could have been lovers and instead spent a pleasant day but one of strong emotional ties. It makes it sad to think of him and realize he was ill and didn't know it. They call such memories the roads not taken. Sex is one of the strongest desires of every human being. Without that tie a man and woman lose the bond. I know for me it devastated my life. No other way to say it. We are here at this spot in sadness, regret and memories of emotions lost.
Perhaps my paintings are richer, my creations are better, and my belief in healing your relationship (if you can) is deeper, for what I experience.

paul10june
2nd May 2010, 05:30 PM
I am a man, only 51, my wife 55, and we have become sexless. Its excrutiating for me because I still have a high sex drive. I masturbate every day, often more than once...trying to ease the frustation...but there is nothing to compare with the beauty and intimacy of making love.
In my case, my wife has had some medical issues associated with the menopause, which makes sex painful. But now she wont take the treatment declaring she wouldn't mind if she never had sex again.

I like others have contemplated all sorts....an affair, a prostitute, porn.....

But I am afraid for me, I am going to have to find another lady, I think. Someone special to be friends with and lovers.

Peerhaps someone in a similar position. The challenge is finding that spark, the emotional as well as physical attraction. Thats when sex becomes making love.

But to find such a lady, where do you start? i haven't dated in years!

Paul

1aokgal
5th May 2010, 02:29 AM
Looking for another woman outside of your marriage is NOT dating. It is a search for sex. It won't make you happy or solve your problems. Search out a counselor. Try before you seek an outlet you will regret.

Dakereb
6th May 2010, 05:59 AM
Paul, you are most likely addicted to masturbation. I can understand your frustration, but to do it every day and more tells me that you are so focused on the sex that you are missing out on the other aspects of your relationship with your wife.

If your wife senses that your primary interest in her is sexual, she may resent it and withdraw. That is wrong of her, she should discuss the issue with you and tell you that she is turned off by your attitude toward sex, but it may not have occured to her that this is the problem. She may feel that something is not right but be unable to put a finger on what it is.

She has medical reasons for her lack of libido, but it is her lack of caring about how that affects you that really hurts. This makes the frequent masturbation justifiable in your mind. You've fallen into a self-sustaining loop. You masurbate because she doesn't care about your needs, and she doesn't care because you masturbate. You have to break the cycle. You cannot control her, but you can control yourself. Chances are good that you masturbate when you dwell on the problem. You feel anger or resentment, then say to yourself, well hell, if she doesn't give a damn, then I'll just have sex here and now, without her. That sort of dwelling on the negative is a trigger. It leads to a mental justification of you behaviour. You need to learn ways to defuse the emotion, by doing something to distract your mind.

In addition to controlling your obsession with sex, you need to change the way you interact with your wife. I suspect that this problem is so overwhelming you that you cannot have conversations with her without it being at the forefront of your mind. This colors everything about the attitude you project toward her. You need to recalibrate your image of her away from the sexual and more toward friendship. Most importantly, you need to project a level of respect toward her. This is a real challenge in your case, but it is possible if you remove from your mind any expectation of sex from her. Think of her as an intellectual equal, and as a friend worthy of respect. If a romantic relationship is at all possible in the future, this is the foundation required to build it.

All this is tedious and difficult, and takes tremendous patience. It takes time, a LOT of time. Setbacks are going to happen. Counseling would really help guide you through it, and may be essential to getting her to understand what is needed of her. I feel for you.

Don't have an affair. It would be the nails in the coffin for your marriage.

1aokgal
25th May 2010, 06:38 AM
Hi All..

Hope the regular posters are having a change for the better. The only thing change now is my husband is very ill..recovering from a major surgery. He has a few more months to go before he is out of the woods after colon cancer. In pain tonight, he bemoaned his life, etc. While I felt sorry for his pain I see he gives up easy.

I said you had a great life, a wonderful family as a boy , a good marriage and you chose as a man to travel the world with the type work you selected. You have seen things most never hope to see. He stopped being a husband in the intimate part of the marriage almost 19 years ago but most men would give a lot to have a wife who is there and a beautiful home. I was here and I worked and made many things happen on my end. I guess I told him this is a hill he must get over in his self pity. Then he can go back and see the rest of the world.

I don't think he appreciated all he had and will have again as he heals. He has an 85% chance to fully recover and that is good odds. He will live no different than he ever has, I think. If he had not made it my mourning would be pretty short as I don't remember the things about him that I loved.
In future with him here or not, I will still have the things I value as my children, artwork and a few good friends. True I don't post here anymore to change things.... and not even when I am angry. That got me nowhere.
Perhaps we all reach a point of arrival where we have acceptance and it is OK.

Lost and Desperate1
28th May 2010, 04:33 PM
Like so many others on this and other sites I have the same issues. I’m a young 42 year old man that has been married for going on 16years now and together with my wife for 20+. We have not had regular sex for going 7+ years because of medical issues with my wife. She (at times) physically can’t do it other times it is the hormones and meds. I understand this and have supported her in all that this poor woman has endured. Yet I still have a very health sex drive and have attempted to suppress it in many ways (hobbies, kids, gym, work, etc… etc… etc…) you all know and have done many of the same things just to keep having it eat you alive inside with no light at the end of the tunnel. Don’t get me wrong I love my wife and have never strayed, I just don’t think I can continue going on like this any more. I don’t want to feel like I have abandoned her and my kids for something as simple as sex. But it is not that simple as many of you know, the emotional issues, the resentment, not feeling loved, desired is killing me inside. I have kept this bottled up for a very long time (not putting my needs on her shoulders) but when she asks me what is wrong why am I not happy and always in a bad mood – I finally opened up and told her all that was running threw my head, for her to just push it off and say well I’m glad I know what is bothering you lets just not talk about it any more. We talked about getting away just the two of us to try and get back on track. Instead she wants to take a family vacation this year. I told her we can’t do both (family vacation it is). She tells me I have anger issues and should seek help (someone to talk to) thought that was what my wife is supposed to do (listen and talk things out with me – not some therapist). I read a lot about women saying do more to make her feel loved and less burdened with the day to day life things (lighten her load). I have always done this – run all the errands, food shopping, kids activities, taking her to the doctors, all the driving (when every where ever), house work, cooking, painting, yard work. Still nothing. On the rare occasion that she throws me pity sex (talking 1 - 2 times a year) it hurts her or she is just not there, and that makes me feel like a monster, but she can’t understand why.

I’m at my wits end any help guidance or advice will be great.
Thank you and good luck to all of you this is a hard thing to deal with (I know).

Reader
30th May 2010, 12:18 AM
@Everyone:

I wrote a whole post out... but decided it regurgitated too much of what has been said.

dalesman
30th May 2010, 02:23 PM
Wow, 2120 posts to this one singe thread.

Nice to read a slightly different point of view as I think in general people on this site take the view that marriage is sacred no mater what the circumstances .

I was married for 15 years and my wife only ever wanted sex when we were trying for children. Apart from then we lived a completely sexless existence. I was not happy about this but I took the view that I would rather live like that, than live without her. I loved her deeply and just accepted this was the price I had to pay. I didn't whinge about it , I took the view that it was my decision to accept this.

Once I was unfaithful but the guilt I felt destroyed any relief I may have got from the act. Although I gained some self confidence and proved to myself I was not completely undesirable. .

My wife used every excuse in the book to explain why she couldn't have sex, but eventually after 15 years she admitted that she was not sexually attracted to me and never had been. She said she had married me for all the wrong reasons. I was devastated when she said we should split up and begged and pleaded, but she went anyway. Later I found out she had been having an affair,

In the following 16 years I have grown to realise that she was right to split. I have developed a wonderful single life and have had many fantastic sexual experiences with a wide variety of lovers. If we had stayed together I would still be in a stunted sterile relationship and she would still be having affairs behind my back. And so now I thank her for having the courage and honesty to finish it . I also believe that she tried her best and did everything she could to try and make it work. I hold no malice towards her whatsoever

Nowadays we are good friends. We have 2 grown up children and 4 grandchildren and we often talk for hours. I still have strong feelings for her but splitting up was the right thing to do.

1aokgal
10th June 2010, 05:58 AM
Hi Bear and All..

Nothing has changed as I seem to have reached a state where most of the time I do things which bring me enjoyment and pretty much co-exist with him. He is doing alright in his treatment plan though it is hard to deal with the side effects of Colon Cancer. It has been difficult be he is going to survive and likely intact at the end. He is to go through another round of chemo. He was declared as cancer free. In a couple months he will have the last surgery to restore all, if things go OK. I hope he has that recovery and goes back to sea life. It is a good place for him.

If I think about the years of life with him...I do so dispassionately. I still regret my life as a woman was yanked by the control of another. I miss what should have been. I am his roomate who takes care of all the financial dealings and makes big decisions. What was lost was a very long time ago. I almost forgot intimacy. The moments when two are close and whisper in the night were not there for this 19 years. Old before I was old. If I were not so feminine as one who wore the red shoes with stilleto heels, I guess I could understand why a man turned his back. Only he knows the reasons. I am sure he was not deprived and gained self satisfaction. To those posting here we know this is hell!

Bear, it must eat him alive that you are the detached one. My husband does the grab at my hand as I leave a room to say he loves me. Matter? Not a bit to me. Whatever he feels is immaterial. My emotions are reserved for what I enjoy as my animals and my art.

Sometimes I think he feels loney. Frankly, I do not. I have a great companion dog to walk and
talk to when I need company. I gave him a haircut before he went a day to the hospital and did the required things. Hope you stay well, Bear. Don't spend time to indulge in questioning or rebukes. They wouldn't get it and it ruins the day.

Sarah Annon
14th June 2010, 01:00 PM
Reading this forum today has helped me so much. I know it sounds stupid, but I really thought that I was one of the only women in the world who felt the frustration, rejection, low self esteem of your husband not wanting sex.

I have been married for nearly 6 years, together 10, and me and hubby had a great sexual relationship early on - laugh at myself when thinking back to telling him to keep his hands off me - but he did always have some self esteem problems and not very confident in the sack despite him being 17 years older than me. I was more experienced but we worked hard (and more than regularly) at solving the issues. Even when sex wasn't successful he still wanted to be rude and have fun and fancied the pants off me.

Things took a downhill turn when we started fertility treatment and he was used as a Guinea Pig with different drugs that altered his mood and libido. We thought that when treatment stopped things would get back to normal but I think we went for such a long time without sex that we almost got out of the habit. After that it was only ever me who initiated sex, but the more I got rejected the less I tried.

I was desperately hurt and we were growing apart, and then I found that he was spending alot of time looking at porn - well that was just devastating. I was there in the flesh desperate for sexual intimacy, and the feeling of being fancied (yes vain, but I really started to feel so ugly thinking that he would rather look at photos of gorgeous fake women that have to look at me) and he would rather sit on his own looking at this disgusting crap.

At this point I would also like to say that even though it may not sound like it, my husband is the most generous caring person and he really does love me dearly - he has massive issues with communication on any sensitive issues which really made matters worse.

We spent several months in counselling which was a great help, and I think he could say things there that he never did feel he could say to me on our own. We really got things back on track (he was talking to me about some feelings, we started having sex again with some regularity, and were having a laugh which was the most important thing for me) but only 1 year later we are in a worse place than before. He has closed in on himself, it's like a wall that I can't break down. If I ever do and he takes stock he is devastated and promises to talk to me again - even about little things - makes a huge effort to be loving and up beat, but within days we are back to the same place.

Looking at things from the other side, I'm not exactly easy to live with. I get really arsey with him when I shouldn't which pushes him further back but when you try to chat or ask for help here or there and get nothing back... well I get upset and in a bad mood and the cycle continues. I really have tried to resolve this too and asked him to please say something when he senses me starting to get nasty but he will never say so till things are calmed down – sometimes weeks have passed. I really have made progress with my problems IMO on this and others, but I am by no means perfect. He worries about money, I like to spend it – but never so we would get in debt. I get far too concerned and stressed with housework and after counselling I was able to control this much better – though do sometimes find myself obsessing.

As I said earlier, there is a big age gap but we have the same interests and he never really feels that much older than me. Experts may say that the infertility has played a bigger part in this than we accept, I don't really know. We tried, we failed, we did talk about it and agreed that our life together was more important than fighting for years and making ourselves miserable - we also agreed once the decision was final that we would live a full life with all the other things that we wouldn't have been able to do if we did have kids, unfortunately this has never really happened, we just plod along.

Last night I found him watching porn again and I just can't take any more.

I love him so much and I know he loves me - it would break the hearts of our families and friends - on the outside everyone thinks we have the perfect marriage. This clamming up only happens in our house, when we are with other people he is happy and chatty and everything seems great - but he can't get back to being this person with me.

I feel like I have fought and fought and I have nothing left in the tank. I have told him that I am leaving and although he desperately wants another chance I think he realises that we are making each other miserable. The thought of leaving is just so incredibly sad, I can't imagine life without him, but i can't imagine ever being happy if I stay.

Thanks for listening (if you haven't fallen asleep by now), it feels really good to write this down. And thanks to everyone else who's posted (even though too many to read) it has helped me alot - feels like someone there to talk to.

Here's hoping
Sarah

Dakereb
22nd June 2010, 04:00 AM
Well, looks like things are pretty much the same here in this forum. Wish I could say they were better for me, but they're not.

Sarah, I am so sorry you've lost your husband to porn. I'd be willing to bet that he feels bad about himself for it, but can't stop and can't take the feeling of judgement from those that know about it, like you. This is why he's retreated so much. He may never "man up" and face the problem straight on. The best you can do is to not be judgmental. He's likely not real happy with himself about it, but still can't stop it. It is not dissimilar to drug addiction.

1aok, I am so sorry that your husband is having to endure colon cancer treatment. A friend at work went through that, too. He ended up having a foot or so of his colon removed, then went through some sort of chemotherapy. After a while they reattached his colon so he could eliminate normally, and today he is just fine. Hopefully that will be your husband's result. I am sorry he has not been much of a husband, but I am sure you will agree that suffering like that is nothing we'd want for anybody.

For me, well, my wife was trying to get the sex going, but it's stopped again. She seemed to think it was my job to make her interested. The reality is, she has to make herself interested. If she's not emotionally connected to me, then there's nothing I can do. She blames me for so much, there is really no way for her to connect anymore. She really can't forgive, even though she says she does forgive. Whatever the case, there are simply no romantic feelings toward me. Without that, there's no way she'll really get engaged in sex.

So we'll just live together, share our house and finances. It's not great, but there are worse things. I am worried about the economy (I am a profound worrier, and that really bothers her about me), so I do not feel comfortable with the idea of striking out alone, even though I have a good job. Although she does not work, she has a fair amount of money, and it's all in her name and her parents name, so if I left I'd be pretty much broke. I'll just make the best of it. If the economy looks to be getting better long-term I may reconsider, but at this point, between that issue and the whole issue of extended family turmoil and all that, I'll just make peace with it.

If someone comes along on the side, I may entertain that. It's not really my type of thing to do, but I can see it. Life just is not ideal, and I am far from perfect. We all crave that feeling of acceptance and love. I just really thought I could make it work. It's shaken my faith in life. I know God has better things for us if we could just follow his instructions, but somewhere I went wrong, and I'll never have the life I think He wanted for me. I'll just have to make do. I believe He will forgive me.

marissariff
22nd June 2010, 02:30 PM
In this manner, I think to have a healthy marriage includes sex. There are things in which couple should consider in order to stay their marriage healthy and having no sex I guess depending to both person how they would manage and maintain the healthy relationship.