Help desperately needed (can you help Helen)

[molly]

Hi

This is the first time i've asked for help from you guys out there, so i'll try to start from the begining!

I was in a relationship for nearly 8 years, i absolutely loved my partner to bits, and still do. We'd had our ups and downs, made worse from the fact i suffered from pmt, and my partner working overseas.

By sept 05 i'd seemed to get the pmt sorted out, through going to the doctors on a couple of occasions. I thought that things had become better between myself and partner, although i did still feel neglected, but unbeknown to me it they weren't what i thought.

For a few months before he had started to see an old girlfriend, but only for coffee aparantly, when he was home. Then he left me, we'd had a arguement the night before then the following morning he told me he was going to leave, i didn't try to stop him wrongly as i thought, he needed to cool off.

I tried to text and call him that night and all over the weekend, but couldn't get in touch with him. I'd helped to organize a 21st birthday party with him for his daughter at a local pub, prior to him leaving, which was to be held 10 days later. I never for one moment dreamt there was anyone else involved at all, i totally trusted and loved/love him.

5 days later he came over to our house, i pleaded with him to come home, but all he said was he needed time, nothing about seeing anyone else. I saw him about 3/4 times during that week, constantly asking him to come home, but still the same reply, need more time. I told him that i wouldn't sponge of him and i wouldn't take any more money from him, and that i would become independant, as he didn't want to be with me, then i wouldn't take his money. So i got myself the first job i could, unfortunatley in a pub, but at the time it was a means to an end.

The party came and went, obviously i didn't go, which really upset me, sitting indoors wondering all that night what was going on about him having a good time.

After about 3 weeks of working i met through work a guy, who asked me out. Up till this time i felt really bad about myself, for being left, and for not understanding really why. And by this time my partner had gone overseas to work again for 3/4 weeks, and i'd been communicating via e mail with him still asking him to come home. So i went out just for a meal and didn't want anything else other than some company, i didn't think at this time about the consequences, as it was totally innocent, and i'd been left.

The guy was ok, but i never fancied him at all, i really loved my partner and no one ever could compare to him, he was everything to me, my best friend, my lover, my life. I went out i guess 2 times each time just for a meal, he'd pick me up and drop me off outside my house, i never so much as gave him a good night kiss. Then my partner asked me over the phone whether i was seeing someone else, and i said yes, and explained it to him, still he didn't say he'd come home. Then i received a annoymous letter, telling me that i should move on, as he had, as he was seeing someone else, and that he'd taken her to the party. I was absolutely devestated, a feeling i can't describe, i felt worthless, unattractive etc.

I told him i'd received the letter, for some reason wrongly i wanted to feel attractive again, and this guy paying me a bit of attention helped me ( but i knew it was wrong) it gave me a shoulder to cry on, but the letter excellerated the situation, we went out for a couple of meals and i'd told him about the letter and how hurt i felt that he'd done this to me. Things then changed before i got out of the car when he dropped me off we kissed, which felt really strange, and i really felt nothing for him. But this all happened over a period of about 3 weeks.

Then we spent the night together at a hotel, which i bitterly regret now, and i'm ashamed of terribly, i live with that mistake constanly on my mind. As i'm really not a slapper, i've had 4 sexuall partners in my 43 years, and i now feel terrible about what i did.

So i'll try to cut a long story short now.

Me and my partner went through some really awaful times while apart, things we both said and did to each other out of spite.He began to ask if he could come home, when he knew what was going on. But me feeling the way i did said no, and pretended everything was ok with me and this new guy, when really inside it was awful. But as far as i was concerned, he was having a great time. My partner then went on holiday, with his new girlfriend, although he had asked me, and i said no, i had to work and that i was seeing this new guy. ( again a mistake i made, but i was hurting)

I took over paying all the bills for my/our house, then the biggest mistake i could make i made. I let the new guy stay over at our house, and in our bed. It was totally wrong, and i've admitted it . The sex was awful for me, but i just went through with it, i could of said no, but i didn't, and i feel terrible for doing it to myself and the one man i really love. This happened 4 times and sex didn't happend on all occassions. The relationship wasn't working out, i was still in love with my partner and wanted him back. I ended the relationship, it lasted 6 weeks, as i wouldn't settle for 2nd best, i didn't know if things could be worked out with my partner, but i wanted to try.

So we talked on the phone, he knew everything that had happened, and he said he'd end it with his girlfriend, which was an old girlfriend from school. So i said ok, but i felt really uneasy about it. He told me when he'd done it, then came home that weekend, and colleted his car and to my knowledge it was over, although he'd left his clothes there. We had a couple of weekends together, which had awkward times as was to be expected. Then out of the blue i got a text from my x giving me his e mail address as he had gone to work somewhere over seas. So out of stupidity, curiousity got the better of me, and i e mailed him. I told him stuff that was untrue, as i still felt insecure about the relationship with my partner, and wanted to keep a communication up, as a shoulder to cry on and someone to talk to. But i was totally wrong to do so, i know that now. My partner then logged on to my e mail account and found the e mails i'd sent and the replies, and went mental. I've had no contact with my x now for 4 months. And don't intend to, as its over and was, prior to it being over, as it was going nowhere from day 1.

So i tried to explain i'd made a mistake, and that i really loved only him as i do, and always have. But no matter what i say, it makes no difference, even though he'd left me, and done all the things he'd done. But still i didn't know he was still in communicaton and seeing his girlfriend, and talking to me like i was a slapper, and actually called it. But i took it as i love him, and wanted it to work so much. I stopped working so i could give us all the time i could, and to be able to go away with him, and spend all his time off with him, i also thought that it would give him peace of mind that i wouldn't see my x whilst at work. Then he saw an old text on my phone, and again everything was my fault, and he made me feel terrible, but i still didn't know what was going on behind my back. About 3 weeks past of sheer misery one minute everything was ok then it was hell, He wanted to know every bit of the sexual experience i had with the x, and i humiliated myself by telling him, as he said he'd rather know, than not, as he could deal with it, and i believed him. Then he eventually let me go over to where he was working and all we did was talk about what had happened over and over, which is all we've done for months prior. I came home thinking everything was going to be ok, i'd been asking why he hadn't got his clothes back and all i got in responce was, i'm back thats what matter.

My partner then sent her a text telling her it was over, and that he would be in touch about collecting his clothes, the next thing is she's knocking on my door. Her version of events was totally different to his, He told me it was a brother sister relationship, she said not, she said they were going to get married, buy a house. He'd never asked me to marry him. These things somehow didn't hurt as i thought something was going on, but couldn't prove it. But i found out that when i came home from away, she'd gone over to him the next day and spent 2 nights there with him after i'd spent 2 nights there.

So i don't understand, so please help me!

I absolutely love him to bits even though he'd left me for someone else and slept with them, but he mentaly beats me up all the time about what i did. What i did was a reaction and a bad mistake that lasted 6 weeks, and i left it for him, but he chooses to believe i was dumped and only went back to him for that reason. And that i should feel ok, as he left his girlfriend for me, so i was 1st choice. He won't let it drop about sleeping in my/our bed with someone else, even though i've told him what it was like, awful. But he shared his hotel bed with both of us one after the other, a bed that i've been back to since, but he won't let it go. I really try to deal with it, and not beat him up, but he can't do the same.

I really do love him, but he doesn't come near me seaxually right now, and is not affectionate, which i miss terribly. He was when he first came back, but things i thought would get better not worse. What can i do?

[Helen]

Molly,

Your story sounds spookily familiar. I am not going to say anything for the moment. Have a look at these posts and the replies: http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/forums/search.php?searchid=59598 - and if you still need help, post again.


Helen

[jools]

Hi Helen,
I tried to look at that link but it didn't work. You've got me intrigued. Try posting it again?
Jools. X
________
MEXICO HOTELS (http://mexicocityhotel.info)

[Helen]

Jools,

It works on my computer. I was directing Molly to posts by the user Murray, using the 'search for other posts by this user' option.


Helen

[Helen]

Molly,

There are so many things I want to say to you because I suspect I know who you are. But I have another paper to write today, for work tomorrow. So I cannot post a proper response right now. Read all the posts (and replies) made by the user 'Murray'. Then come back here if you need more information/advice. And outline (without the background) what help you are asking for, for yourself.


Helen

[molly]

Hi Helen,

I tried to give you the background as i thought you would see what led me to make such a dreadful mistake. I know i can't change the past, and what i did, i just want to move forward with my partner, as i really love him very much.

The problems are that i slept with another man in my/our bed, but i doesn't seem to matter what i had done to me, and the pain i go through, and the terrible thoughts i have of my partner and his girlfriend.

I'm constantly being asked what the sex was like and what we did.

How many times we had sex, how many times i went out for meals, how many times he stayed over, i tell him and that's still not the right answer.

I've told my partner, i absolutely love him, and that there was never any competition, he was never 2nd best, nobody for me could compare to him, he's my life. But he won't believe me.

I try talking and talking, but it really hurts me, as i feel i made a fool of myself, and i kinda feel cheap, and humiliated, all of which i brought on myself. I'd never found myself in such a situation, as i did when my partner left, emotions and feelings run really high and i was hurt, however it is no excuse for what i did to myself or him. I must be honest i don't ask him the questions he asks me, i guess we all deal with things differently, as we both do. I just wish we could wipe the slate clean and move on, and the past never to be mentioned again, but i know that's not life, its wishful thinking. I really try talking but get accused i don't talk enough, its just really painfull re living it all.

I really want to work things out and get the life we had together back again, this is making both of us miserable, but sometimes when i feel i can't say the right thing i then bring up what he's done, and it becomes tit for tat. Its like he's trying to catch me out on something that i've done .

You know its strange, he said he left as he couldn't talk to me, and i didn't make him happy, yet he said he wants things to be the way they were, it seems that he wants something gets it then doesn't want it any longer.

I've changed our bedroom totally round, moved everything, bought new bed covers etc.

Any ideas what i can do, to reassure my partner that i really do love him, he's not second best to anyone. I can honestly say haven't had any contact with my x for some months nor do i expect to, its over end of story. I wish with all my heart i'd never taken the first step and went out with him, but that's the mistake i've got to live with.

I don't want to give up on this, but i do need some help!

[Helen]

Molly,

Did you read the posts by Murray? If not, I urge you to read them. I am still writing my paper but I need to stop soon for a break. I will send a response then.

The posts in question (in this area) are: '2nd best to another guy?' and 'I can't get past my anger - Please help'

I do have a question. Why do you answer your partner's questions? Surely what you did when you were apart is none of his business? And why do you feel guilty? It is not as though you cheated on him...


Helen

[Kate]

Dear Molly


I'm not sure anyone here can solve your problems. Have the two of you sat down to talk things through calmly? I'm sure if you can share this with us then you can find a way to sit down and share it with each other.

If your man is abusive and doesn't tell the truth, then perhaps you should think about making a fresh start. You can't change him however much you love him, and such behaviours don't bode well for a healthy marriage in the future.

If you are both determined to make things work, then you both need to seek and give each forgiveness (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/relbasictopic/forgive/), and put the past behind you.

Kate

[molly]

Helen

I answer the questions i'm asked as he tells me it helps him if he knows the truth, but seemingly it doesn't as it doesn't make things better. When i tell him the truth that's not what he wants to beleive then says it can't be right and that i'm not telling the truth. So i can't win, if i don't tell him, i'm keeping secrets, and if i do its not the right answer.

It really hurts me to go over it, as i'm ashamed of what i did. I wish i could change it but i can't i've said to him i'll take this awful mistake and feeling of being ashamed to my grave.

It doesn't make any difference right now, but i would never of cheated on him ever, i knew what i had and i loved/love him. I can't beleive its happened to me!

What will help him/us to move forward?

I just wish he could forgive me as i have him.

[Annie]

Helen,
My thoughts exactly!!!!
Annie

[London]

Helen

I answer the questions i'm asked as he tells me it helps him if he knows the truth, but seemingly it doesn't as it doesn't make things better. When i tell him the truth that's not what he wants to beleive then says it can't be right and that i'm not telling the truth. So i can't win, if i don't tell him, i'm keeping secrets, and if i do its not the right answer.

It really hurts me to go over it, as i'm ashamed of what i did. I wish i could change it but i can't i've said to him i'll take this awful mistake and feeling of being ashamed to my grave.

It doesn't make any difference right now, but i would never of cheated on him ever, i knew what i had and i loved/love him. I can't beleive its happened to me!

What will help him/us to move forward?

I just wish he could forgive me as i have him.

Molly - have you read any of the postings Helen asked you to read? Like her, I immediately thought the same things as she did - its a little eeriely close to what the poster "Murray" has been going on ad infinitum about (almost parralleling what he must be doing to his partner).

The points we have been trying to make is that YOU have done NOTHING wrong. Please understand and know that. You need that knowledge to be empowered and and to be strong.

You have NOTHING to explain to him regarding what happened while you were not together. Yes, honesty is required in a relationship, and you have given him answers - but his continual beating you down and making you feel guilty about this is no longer about knowing the "truth" - its him manipulating you into feeling guilty about HIS issues and insecurities. If he can't get over it, then he needs to get out of your life. He will only make things worse for you and himself.

And one more thing, remember, that HE put you in this spot to begin with. You cannot allow a hypocritical, self-centered person lke this to make you feel guilty about his actions.

The next question you need to ask yourself is are you really sure you love *this* man - the man who is making you feel like this all the time?

[jools]

Too much of a coinsidence? Molly, ARE you Murray's partner?
________
Ferrari 248 f1 history (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Ferrari_248_F1)

[Helen]

I just wish he could forgive me as i have him.Molly,

So do we. I am not sure you can get him to forgive you because he seems incapable of hearing what you are saying. I also doubt that you can move forward with this man, no matter how much you love him. But the thing I want to say up front here is you didn't do anything wrong. Nothing at all. You and your partner were separated. He showed no signs of coming back, despite you begging him. It was only after weeks of begging that you found someone else. When he realised you were involved with someone else, he decided he did want you after all. He comes back and then has the nerve to behave as though you were cheating on him? You weren't. So why the guilt? Why are you beating yourself up? He is going on all self righteous (and this has been said to him) but actually, he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

There is a reason why I directed you to Murray's posts. I tried to be discreet but you do not appear to have read them. So I am afraid I am going to have to blow your cover (sorry). I asked you to read Murray's posts because I believe they were posted by your partner. I am not sure what his real name is but the situation he describes is identical to the one you have outlined in your posts. The only difference is he hasn't been entirely truthful with us - or you. I would like to ask you if you grill him about the details of his affair? I know he lied to you initially - told you it was platonic. It wasn't. And do not forget, he left you - not the other way round. Why is he questioning you? And why are you allowing him to treat you as though you have done him wrong? If anyone should feel ashamed, it is him! That man should be on his knees, grateful that you agreed to take him back and forgive him. But all he can focus on is the fact that you slept with someone else. SO WHAT?

If you read the 2 threads that I directed you to in my last post to you, you will see all his posts - and our replies. Unfortunately, Murray seems incapable of listening to us too because he keeps asking the same questions here of your relationship - and he keeps getting exactly the same replies. Indeed, many of us have become irritated because he cannot let it go. I think it would be useful for you to read these threads because you will gain an understanding of the advice we have given him. You may well want to contradict that advice (which is welcome) or you may disagree (again, this is welcome). The point is much of what has been said to Murray, would probably be offered in advice to you too.

These threads would be useful starting points for you. Once you have read them, come back here if you have any questions. I will say up front that no one can offer you any 'answers'. The 'answer' doesn't exist. The answer is what the two of you decide to do. But if you cannot reason with the man, the 'answer' may well be something you don't want it to be...

Read the threads because they contain a lot of useful advice - far better advice than I can rehash here.


Helen

[shadow]

My first thought too was this was Murray partner

[molly]

Hi to you all, and thanks for listening and giving me your adivce and opinions!

Yes you're all right i am murrays partner, he suggested i talk to you all, as he said it could help me, as it has him. Whether it has or not, i don't know, as he still behaves the same way toward me, about the past.

I've gone through the threads suggested, and i can't disagree with you i just wish it could of done some good. I can feel that i'm not on my own with this, and what i went through, its nice to able able to talk with people who have had the same experiences, and who understand, the reasons behind our actions.

I would like to ask this though, as i don't understand why i did this myself!

As you all know from murrays threads, i sent my x a couple of e mails which were posted by murray, so you may of seen the them already.

I can't explain why i sent them except that i bitterly regret it, and there was no truth behind them. I told him i loved him and that i missed him, and would like to get back with him. And that if i got back with my partner it would be for all the wrong reasons.

When in reallity i didn't want to get back with him, i didn't love him, as i'd ended it with him, as i still loved my partner and wanted to work things out with him, although i didn't know if i could..

I don't understand what lead me to send them, except i was feeling insecure trying to rebuild my relationshipe with my partner, and i just wanted to talk to someone who would understand, as he'd seen what i'd been through, and have a shoulder when needed to cry on. Although my partner had come back he hadn't brought any of his belongings back, so i didn't know whether he was back for good, or it was a case of him still having his cake and eating it. And as time has told he still was. But i still don't regret breaking up with my x, as if he came back knocking on my door today, it would make no difference, i wouldn't have a relationship with him again as it was a mistake then.

I'd never said to my x anything about any feelings i'd got for him at the time of the relationship, as i didn't have any, so i don't know what came over me to tell him on the e mails. But he never quetioned it when replying to the emails, so why? Did he know all along how i actually did feel, that i guess i was using him, just as a support, as i felt lonely.

I know that if he'd of come back saying ok lets get back together again i'd of said no i'm sorry.

What leads us to do such things? to lie to someone to obtain some kind of comfort.

I don't understand, and my partner says i wrote them as i meant them, but i didn't and he doesn't understand. But all along he'd kept in contact with his girlfriend, which doesn't make what i did right, as it wasn't.

I've tried to be totally truthfull, even over the sexual side of things that i experienced in our time apart, but nothing seems to give him the reassurance he wants, that i'd like to give. That i'm in this because i want to be, and because i love him very much, all of which i've told him over and over.

So any of you out there with any advice? that could help me understand why i did what i did!

Thanks to you all, as this must be a strange one, to hear both of us telling you how we feel.

[jools]

OK, Molly...I have to say it. Forgive me if I've got this wrong, but knowing how obsessed Murry is about all of this I am suspecting that Molly is really Murry, trying to get yet another angle on his problem.
________
FIX PS3 (http://fixps3.info/)

[Helen]

Molly,

If you read Murray's threads then you will have seen the explanations I gave Murray for your actions. I wouldn't think about it. Asking yourself why you did such and such is a waste of time. It isn't going to help either of you to move forward, if you focus on this.

I wanted to pick up one thing you said in a previous post. You indicated that Murray felt he had put you first, by breaking up with the other woman and coming back to you. I would disagree. Putting you first would have been not leaving at all. Putting you first would have been listening and taking action when you were begging him to come back. In terms of coming back to the relationship, one of you had to make the first move. It is therefore ridiculous for him to behave as though he was the noble one. In fact, it could be argued that you made the first move, because you were the one who was begging him to return for weeks on end. The fact is he didn't and you found comfort elsewhere.

Stop going around in circles with this. It is pointless. The bottom line? Murray left. You were single. You begged him to come back and he didn't. You were therefore not a couple. You had another relationship. THAT is none of Murray's business, as you were, technically, a free agent. Do not allow this man to make you feel guilty about your actions. You didn't do anything wrong. As for the emails - again, that is a red herring. Why is Murray so fixated on them? This is about him being the one to dump her first. It's ridiculous. Not the sort of situation I would expect people of your age to be in. Do not join him in his hysteria. There really is no point.

Murray either has to accept what you are telling him or, if he can't, the two of you have to finish things. And if it comes to that, in no way is it your fault. It's his. That's it.


Helen

[London]

jools - it doesn't matter if molly is murray or if she really is molly. Either way, it shows how manipulative and selfish murray really is in bringing her here and ignoring what she has to say or writing it himself and still not getting it.

Murray - if you are reading this - ACCEPT YOUR FAULT AND GET OVER IT OR LEAVE MOLLY ALONE.

Molly - YOU DID NOTHING WRONG.

You will note how everyone on this board feels the same way towrds what murray had said. If he can't accet what you already said to him, or read what you said here then quite frankly it's OVER - which it seems it already is. He will never be able to accet you for who you are and will always see you as "damaged goods" (wc you are NOT) - even though he is 100% to blame for not only starting this but more importantly also continuing it. You were great in giving him a second chance, but he's now mentally abusing you.

Also, Molly, were you aware that Murray posted your emails here - word for word which he obtained by breaking into your email account? Did he tell you that he refused to delete them for a long time? Did he tell you he went through your phone to read your text messages?

[molly]

Thanks to you all for your replies, i can understand how jools could think i'm murray, and i don't know how to prove otherwise, under the circumstances. This it's i guess a strange situation, that we're both asking for help, and me for the first time, as i thought i could deal with the situation without.

I am who i say i am, which sounds daft.

I really just wanted some help, in regard to, i don't understand myself why i wrote the e mails, i keep going over it. I know we all do mental things when we're hurt, for all sorts of reasons, so i wondered if anyone out there had done anything like it, or could put a view forward to me. I've been trying to explain this to murray, but he can't beleive there was nothing behind it, and that i was lieing to my x.

Everything i say, its a case of he would of reacted different, for eg if i'd of sent him the e mails without telling him previously in the relationship i loved him, he would of come back and said hang on why are you saying this, you've never said it before. But i hadn't, but he doesn't believe me.

Going back to the begining of january murray asked me to send my x a email and ask him what me meant in a e mail he sent me, so i did which again gave murray what he wanted, nothing came back which is what i expected as it was over.

Murray used to check my e mail account to see if a reply came, which it didn't.

London, no i didn't know untill today that the emails had been posted on her, and i'm really ashamed of myself. But i never dreamt that he would of gone through my email account, although i shouldn't of sent the e mails.

I wish i could give murray the reassurance he needs, that i wouldn't settle for 2nd best, and that i truely do love him, and only him.

Any ideas?

molly

[jools]

OK, so Murray's sucked Molly into this and now we're all getting sucked in too! How many times can you re-invent the wheel? I give up!
________
Wendie 99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[shadow]

OK, Molly...I have to say it. Forgive me if I've got this wrong, but knowing how obsessed Murry is about all of this I am suspecting that Molly is really Murry, trying to get yet another angle on his problem.

That thought entered my mind too LOL

molly,

What you did is completely normal and first reaction to being dumped for another woman. As a betrayed spouse myself, the feelings of being betrayed brings your self esteem down, you lose all your self confindence, you feel unwanted and unattrative, You feel that you must be bad in bed and every thing else is wrong with you and it is something to do with you that you was not able to keep his faithfulness. Your body screams to be held, you crave for someone to love you. A need to show him that others still want you and find you attractive is strong. Those are very normal feelings!!

I had them. I even went out to the bar one night with the purpose of looking for "Love".... but the minute I had someone hooked, I froze up knewing I could not do it, that I couldnt take 2 wrongs and make it right, and I was just lowering myself to his level, BUT.... my husband was just a one night stand...... if my husband would of left me for another woman and it was a continued affair, no I dont think I could of fought off the need, cause those feelings are so strong.

Your saying in emails that you loved him???? I believe that you did not mean those words, you was just looking for love so bad to make you feel that you can be loved that you was confused. It was nothing more then a rebound relationship.

Girl, murray needs to get over it, he really sholdnt be feeling that way at all because he is the one that left you, he is the one that broke the trust. He is the one that put you in the situtation that made you go looking for love to fill the hole that he left in you.

To me Murray sounds very childish, and needs to stand up and act like a man for his own actions. He got a taste of his own medicine and he does not like it.... oh well... he should of thought of that before he left you and slept with another woman.

Dont worry about it anymore, what you did was normal reaction to HIS actions. He said he wants to work it out, then he needs to put his childish behavior away and start acting like a grow up and let by gones be by gones and start working on the realationship now. He did not think of your feelings when he went and had a affair, he was being selfish and only thinking of himself, and he is still only thinking of himself and he is going to ruin the relationship again.

Hold your head up, dont let him bring you down anymore, dont let him continue laying his guilt trip on you. Let him know that he needs to stop being selfish, it was because of selish that he is in this boat now and you won't let it continue. I can see that he has made you feel guilty and ashamed, and that is not right!!!!!!!!!!!

He sent you to this site to get help???? your post was all about what happened to poor Murray.... how what you did hurt him and he cant get over the images of you with another man, well what about the images you get with him another woman. The only help I will give you is try and convince you that you do not deserve to be treated this way, that you do not need to beat yourself up over this and that you need to let him know that enough is enough. He wants to work it out.... great.... but it is not going to happen until he realizes that he made his own bed and now he has to sleep in it. And if he cant.... then you need to realize you do not deserve this and time to move on.

[London]

Murray used to check my e mail account to see if a reply came, which it didn't.

London, no i didn't know untill today that the emails had been posted on her, and i'm really ashamed of myself. But i never dreamt that he would of gone through my email account, although i shouldn't of sent the e mails.

I wish i could give murray the reassurance he needs, that i wouldn't settle for 2nd best, and that i truely do love him, and only him.

Any ideas?

molly

Molly - Again, you have NOTHING to be ashamed about - it is Murray who needs to be ashamed over and over again. He started this whole mess, and he still continues with it. Now look, you are left coming here and begging to figure out why you did what you did and begging him to accept you. You need not be begging for anything. If anyone, Murray needs to be begging for YOUR forgiveness for being such a two-faced hypocrite. He makes my blood boil.

By loving murray you are actually settling for 6 billionth best. He is not worth it. He is abusive, passive aggressive and just a ****! If he still can't accept that you love him today then quite frankly kick the loser out.

How can you trust a man who posted your intimate details here for all to see, who forced you to write those emails and then wait and break into your account to read a reply and then hold it against you? he spied on you, he read your text messages without permission. The man shows no respect for you. He shows no trust and quite frankly shows that he is no man at all. He went off to another woman first, left the house and broke up with you - then begged you to come back becuase the other woman dumped his sorry arse (she saw that he is manipulative and not to be trusted). And then he chastises you becuase you were seeing someone in YOUR house.

Molly - wash this loser out of your life.

[Helen]

I wish i could give murray the reassurance he needs, that i wouldn't settle for 2nd best, and that i truely do love him, and only him.

Any ideas?

mollyMolly,

Evidence should tell you this is never going to happen. It doesn't matter what you say to Murray. He believes what he wants to believe. Witness his conduct on this board and his conduct with you. He asks you the same questions over and over. Whichever answer you give is the wrong one. He behaves in the same way on this board. He comes across as a very selfish, immature and manipulative person. Can you not see that he is manipulating you? I honestly believe that man will not be satisfied until you follow him around everywhere on your knees - if then.

It is a lost cause. As stated earlier, do not join him in this whole 'why did you say this, why did you do this, why did you say this, why did you do this' and back to square one nonsense he is currently engaged in. You have ANSWERED all his questions (which is more than most of us would have done). You have tolerated far more rubbish than many of us would have too. And the man still isn't satisfied. He will NEVER be satisfied.

If he is unable to forgive you for having the cheek to love someone else (mistake or no) that is his problem. Do not waste any more time engaging in this madness with him.


Helen

[molly]

Hi to you all, and thanks for your time and advice.

I really do appreciate it, this is a situation i never in my wildest dreams ever thought i'd be in. I've always said no man would ever cheat on me, and come back. But its strange how when it happens how you actually deal with it and feel.

I can imagine if the tables were turned, with murray, he would never of had me back if i'd of left him, but we are very different.

I've gone over and over it, and its still the same, and 2 wrongs defineately don't make a right. And i'm living with the mistake i made.

Who knows what the futrue holds, i just hope ( sadly you might all think) we can sort this out, as i do still love him, but sometimes i don't know why.

It seems like i need to be able some kind of proof that i finished with the x and not the other way round. As this would give murray the reassurance i went back with him for the right reasons. ( impossible )

Who knows he could again leave me, or go behind back, he works away, who knows, i didn't last time and it was on my door step.

I could go on and on about the things that i feel he did to me, but whats the point, i've said to him time and time again, the past is the past and we can't change it, we can only consentrate on the future and move on.

I know i'll never forget what he did to me, and it will take a long time if ever that i totally trust him again. But i can forgive, i wish he was able to accept it, for what it was, and beleive me, it was a dreadful mistake.

I'm sorry to go on, but why do we do things then wonder why on earth we did them. That's where i am right now, i wish i knew why i wrote the e mails!

Thanks again
molly

[London]

actually Molly, you did NO wrong. But I see you are having a hard time accepting our input that this murray is reall not worth the pain and agony he's putting you through. The issue isn't YOU being able to forgive and forget - you are clearly working on that. The issue HE can't be bothered to really see past his issues and blames you for it. This relationship, I'm sorry to say is DOOMED. He is NOT WORTH IT. But, that's my opinion, and only you can decide for yourself what you need to do. Good luck.....

[Helen]

Molly,

You are doing it again! What is this 'two wrongs don't make a right' business? There was only one wrong - MURRAY did the wrong! You did what you felt you had to do for your own self-esteem. It was not a mistake. It was something you had to go through and ALL of us here can understand why you did it. So why can't you?

As for Murray, he is a lost cause. I hope you reconsider trying to make things work. It sounds to me as though you are in for a whole heap of misery for a long time - if not forever. Think about it.


Helen

[shadow]

I am afraid that she got the 2 wrongs dont make it right from me :-( When I was explaining to her the feelings that she had was normal, that I felt the same way when I found out. Explained to her that I too felt all she felt and I went to look for love but when it came time I decided that 2 wrongs didnt make it right, but that my story had to do with a one time, one night stand. Where if he had left me and had a continue to sleep around then I would of not fought off those feelings, I would of done the same as her.

Guess I didnt make it clear enough, but hope she does understand that she has nothing to be ashamed about, to hold her head up and stop letting him guilt her, that is murray has the prob not her.

[Helen]

Shadow,

No need to apologise. I did see your post and I did realise you made this statement in relation to the things you did and that it did not necessarily apply to what Molly did. I was just trying to make Molly understand that she did no wrong and should stop being a whipping post for Murray/indulging his hysteria.


Helen

[shadow]

I wish that too... :-(

But dont know if we will get her to understand.

[Murray]

This is Murray. Let me put the record striaght on a few things.

I did not spy on molly's email account, we have email accounts that are known to both of us complete with passwords and I often send information from my work account to mollys account becuase I am self employed for future reference. Molly knew this, & it was by sad but pure coincidence that I stumbled upon the emails as I was checking if some information I had sent to molly from my work account had got through becuase I had not received a delivery receipt of the note and it was a business invoice that affected us both.

I wrongly posted the emails becuase I wanted some advise on the content. As usual, the loudmouth London uses this mistake to make his/her point and become abusive.

I do not, & not ever have checked molly's text messages, she showed me one long before xmas otherwise I have no idea what or who shes texts and have never considered checking nor would I.

We have shared everything in the past and still do, from bank details to molly opening my mail and dealing with everything whilst I am away from home and I have never prevented her from doing this nor would I.

I have taken complete responsibility for the problem I HAVE CAUSED. Is that clear to you London - I HAVE CAUSED. I am trying to work thru something that I don't understand but am still trying. I am angry and frustrated with myself for putting molly thru this and trying my hardest to put things right but not having done this before (other than when molly and I got together) I don't know what to do.

I love Molly, made a huge mistake and realised it very quickly. She did something that was completely out of character for her and I don't hold her to blame for it whatsoever, she was not with me as I had left her. IT DOESNT STOP THE HURT THOUGH REGARDLESS OF WHO CAUSED IT.

Did I manipulate molly to come onto here ? If telling her about this site as it might help us then yes I did. I also said to her that she would in all probability be told to leave me by most of you (go ahead, ask her, she will confirm it) but I was prepared to take the risk of her 'wising up and leaving' if it meant that we might get something that could a. help me thru this and b. therefore help us mend this.

We've spoken on the phone and molly is excited about the stuff she is reading and talking about and it's giving her another view - albeit mostly negative toward me, but that goes with the territory of trying something / anything in order to fix this.

You see, fundementally we want to fix this. I love her very much and have screwed up. She also loves me and has taken the time to try to help me although it's very painful for her.

Finally, and whilst it pains me a little to say this, London you are a bully who seems to take pleasure in being abusive and arrogant. I can only assume that you are a very bitter and twisted individual who is able to sound very gutsy hiding when behind a keyboard.

I believe I've said this before, but if you have nothing objective to say and only want to vent out some anger becuase you clearly seem to have had something inflicted upon you, then keep it to yourself.

I make your blood boil ? Very brave from the safety of your keyboard.

Bottom line ? Shut your mouth and butt out.

To all - again, tks. From reading this post I range from a loser to a waste of time but I don't have a problem with objective comment. I may still lose molly again if she takes most of the advice on here but that was the risk I took in telling her about the site. The upside is we get our life back.

Only a fool would advise somebody of an information site where the result may mean losing that person from your life. I'm not a fool. I've been very stupid, selfish and made a huge mistake.

I'm trying to fix it becuase I love her.

I'm asking for help and if it appears, which I'm sure it does, that I don't heed the advice I'm given then I'm sorry but I'm finding it difficult. This is not a sympathy plea, it's a note to say I'm hurting and I need help.

If most of you have lost patience or interest I accept that, however I won't give up trying becuase I love her and always have.

tks,
Murray

[molly]

Thanks to you all for taking the time to give me/us you help and advice!

I can see you're all frustrated with this situation as it goes round and round in circles. Which is exactly how it is for me, when trying to explain what i did and why to murray. Its easier for him to beleive the worst, rather than see any positives or good.

I'm still hanging in there because i love him, and want to fix this!

If anything does come to mind, perhaps you could share it with me.

Thanks for your patience

Molly

[Murray]

Hi everybody and especially molly.

believe it or not these last few days have really helped. It's given me a much more positive way of thinking about us, the things that you have said that you hadn't before or more likely I didn't give you the room to say them has made me realise that the choice is simple. I either believe you when you say you finished it with him or not.

For too long I think I've second guessed how other's would react and how I would react in the same situation, especially his non reply to your em's. I guess I'm saying that just becuase I would do something it doesn't mean that others would behave the same I just thought it was the natutral way anybody would react.

The pain of all this won't go away any time soon, I know the pain you have is probably worse becuase I actually left you, you only started something after I'd gone and everybody on here says it is a natural thing to do the only doiffereing views are how long it would take but that is always up to the individual.

It's taken a long time for you to speal to anybody else about this, I'm really glad we managed to have the discussion at the weekend and even more so that you have done this.

I do love you very much, I very badly screwed up and showed you no respect in doing so. I'm sorry and I mean it. I can't say that things will immediately improve as there has been a lot of water under the bridge, but if you are still up for trying I'm going to do my absolute best to put this behind me and move forward.

If I didn't care as much I wouldn't be botherfed about you being with anybody else let alone feeling second best. I do care, didn't show it when I left but came back becuase I really do care and love you.

Just try to help me thru this on the back of what we have both learnt over the past few days.

To all, even London. Tks for your time, effort and support. It has been vital for us to have different people to discuss this thing with and I thank you very much.

Best wishes,
Murray

[London]

This is Murray. Let me put the record striaght on a few things.

I did not spy on molly's email account, we have email accounts that are known to both of us complete with passwords and I often send information from my work account to mollys account becuase I am self employed for future reference. Molly knew this, & it was by sad but pure coincidence that I stumbled upon the emails as I was checking if some information I had sent to molly from my work account had got through becuase I had not received a delivery receipt of the note and it was a business invoice that affected us both.

I wrongly posted the emails becuase I wanted some advise on the content. As usual, the loudmouth London uses this mistake to make his/her point and become abusive.

FACT: You posted private emails between Molly and OM and left them here. You can justify all you want, but you did that and didn't remove them even after others asked you to. Of course, you didn't tell Molly you did that.

Did I manipulate molly to come onto here ? If telling her about this site as it might help us then yes I did. I also said to her that she would in all probability be told to leave me by most of you (go ahead, ask her, she will confirm it) but I was prepared to take the risk of her 'wising up and leaving' if it meant that we might get something that could a. help me thru this and b. therefore help us mend this.

We've spoken on the phone and molly is excited about the stuff she is reading and talking about and it's giving her another view - albeit mostly negative toward me, but that goes with the territory of trying something / anything in order to fix this.

Actually it goes with the territory of being in the WRONG.

Finally, and whilst it pains me a little to say this, London you are a bully who seems to take pleasure in being abusive and arrogant. I can only assume that you are a very bitter and twisted individual who is able to sound very gutsy hiding when behind a keyboard.

I believe I've said this before, but if you have nothing objective to say and only want to vent out some anger becuase you clearly seem to have had something inflicted upon you, then keep it to yourself.

Bully? No, I am not the one who manipulated my gf into the position you have to Molly. I am not the one in this mess. You are. As far as having something objective to say - I have not said anything different from that others here have said.

I make your blood boil ? Very brave from the safety of your keyboard.

Huh?
Bottom line ? Shut your mouth and butt out.

Bottom line is YOU ARE THE LOSER in all of this. And as i have said to you before, whether or not you read what I say or not, it remains that you have and it has hit a nerve with you. It will resonate in your head and perhaps one day you will finally accept the big baby you really are.

If most of you have lost patience or interest I accept that, however I won't give up trying becuase I love her and always have.

tks,
Murray

Then how about you go and seek an "objective" professional that you can interact with in person - or is that scary for you? They exist in all countries.

[molly]

Hi again to you all especially london, thanks london for you input through all of this i do appreciate, you advice and experience although i can see there's a clash of personalities between you and murray, but that's life.

I personally really appreciate all your help with this, differing views and advice as i guess many of you have actually experienced being hurt and break up. That's why i wanted to talk to you, (although i should of done it earlier, and wish i had) to gain knowledge, of dealing with it.

I guess if i'd of known you were all out there i would of asked for help back in september, then perhaps my life would of been different, as i wouldn't of made the mistake i did, as i'd of had you for support and a shoulder to cry on. But we live and learn.

I just hope murray will at some point believe in me again, and we will both feel secure one day, as like him i don't. Hopefully we can get our life back together on track, i hope so. May be one day he'll really know how much i do love him.

Thanks
molly

[Helen]

Molly,

It really is within Murray's control to deal with this. He can decide that he is just going to put it behind him. He could make a conscious effort to move on. But I think he likes the drama - or has got used to it. He is getting himself in a state over something that hasn't even happened. What he said was 'if that guy had decided he wanted more, Molly wouldn't be with me'. IF. The fact is, it didn't happen so I have no idea what he is so heated up about.

I will say again, I don't think you sleeping with that guy was a mistake. It was something you needed to do - for your self-esteem, to feel valued by someone - whatever. You did it for a reason so do not put yourself down about it. And do not let anyone make you feel bad about doing it or give you a hard time about it.

From now on, I think you should counter any further questions by saying 'I have already answered that. Why are you asking again?'. If Murray continues to ask, tell him there is no point answering the questions - the two of you are getting nowhere. Seriously. If you do it enough, maybe he will stop asking and then you can start getting back on track.

You are a better woman than me. I would have got fed up with this months ago.


Helen

[London]

Molly - thanks for your post - I appreciate it! And again, I have to concur with what Helen is saying - you have done nothing wrong in all of this and should not be made to feel as such by murray or anyone else. It's quite indicative that he is still unable to let go amidst all you have said to him in the past and all that you have written here. As Helen said, he enjoys the drama and being the center of attention. Until that aspect changes in him, he will never change or become a man that is worthy of your attention and love.

[tan]

Molly,

There are so many things I want to say to you, but honestly I can't find the words.

You are a bigger person than I. You have forgiven alot.

You are in control of your future and you have to do what makes you happy.

If you again become unhappy, you will make new choices.

With whatever choices you make, in the future you will make better ones.

I wish you all the best.

Tan

What doesn't kill us only makes us stronger (You must be as strong as an ox!)

[molly]

Hi to you all!

I've read your replies to murray this morning, and can understand your doubts, re murray being me, and that i can understand. However we are two very different individuals, i wish i could actually speak to one of you to prove it, but i guess to put my phone number on here isn't wise?

The stories might be the same, however i've tried to deal with my hurt differently to murray, as he's the one who found all of you. I've only spoken to one very close girlfriend, i havn't even spoken to my family since xmas about the things that have developed since.

I could detail all things to you about the things that i feel have been done to me, since sept let alone the events since xmas. Things you wouldn't understand or believe, i'm not sure i do, but if you love someone enough, you have to choices i think, beleive and forgive to be able to move on, or end it.

So what i choose to do is try my hardest not to dwell on whats been done as that can't (unfortunately be changed) and to look to the future. The future can't become reality if all i do is shout and scream about whats been done to me. I'm hurting more inside with things that come to mind, than many of you will understand. (maybe) Everyone deals with things the way they can, what's right for one will be wrong for another. That's human nature.

I was so hurt when i was left that i made the biggest mistake of my life, i went out with someone else. You all seem to think well that's normal, well not for me it wasn't, in my 43 years, i've had now 4 sexual relationships. I was married at 20 through till 35, then murray then disaster. So may be you can understand how i feel, and may be that's why i made the mistake, as i wasn't street wise and didn't see what it would lead to under the circumstances, of how emotionally i felt. But no excuse.

But i want to move on and i really thought murray did, but as you see it feels a one way road. For him its the feeling of second best, and no matter what i say or do, it doesn't change. May be in time, may be not. But may be he will realise that i want him for him, and nothing else.

What's the point of going over old ground day in day out with how i feel, as i go through it daily with murray, and then i becomes tit for tat very quickly, and soon becomes awful. The same questions, with the same answers.

So i'm trying to move on, i wish it was quicker. The fact that he works away doesn't help, we we managed before, and will again.

I can't get anything right, i can't convince you that i am who i say i am, and i can't convince murray that he isn't 2nd best and that i love him very much. So i'm stuffed!

Thanks again to you all
molly

[Murray]

Hi Sue, it's me Russ. I know you have been thru a lot and also that I'm putting you thru it still when I mention it as often as I do.

I know you wouldn;t have done what happened if I had stayed at home, I know it was my fault it occured, you are not to blame, I am. I have said some rotten things, but when I saw the other guy in our house with you it made me more upset than anything ever has, more so than when both Dad and then Mum recently passed on.

I know it was your business as I had left, but it doesn't take the pain away. If I didn't love you it wouldn't have hurt. If I didn't still love you, it wouldn't still hurt. I can't explain it any other way.

We both know there has been problems over the past few years, I'm sure you'll agree that we dont need to hang anymore dirty washing out in public, and besides, arguing over who's caused the most problems only makes matters worse.

I know working away from home causes a strain as well, I often wonder if the upside of doing it balances the downside of being apart but we've also talked at length about that and we have a plan to stick it out for a while longer.

What I'm trying to say here is this. I have obviously read your posts and feel even sadder at what I have put you thru. I'm only asking you about the other guy becuase I'm scared you will leave me for him if he comes knocking, if I didn't care, I wouldn't ask.

I really want to put the past behind us and will try to put it out of reach ie not talk about it any more. Everybody in their own way has been helpful on this site for both of us. I have fallen foul of some who think I'm this and that but frankly I really don't care. I know how I feel and what I need to do to put things right between us.

You're not stuffed, you do get loads of things right, this time it went wrong becuase of somebody else, namely me.

I'm back in the Hague on Sunday, then back home for the following weekend, if you can let's get together in the Hague for a couple of days and fly back together on Friday. How about it ?

Love Russ - or is it Murray, or Molly, or Morry, or Mully - the list is endless :-)

xx

[molly]

Hi

You're right you never let it drop, even the weekend before last when we were in Berlin. We went in the irish pub for a drink, then whilst talking about what one of your male freinds gets up to, it turned into me again and what i'd done. The conversation started at about 4.00pm , the questions and answers went back and forth, till we left there about 6.30 then continued at the restaurant till about 10.00.

Maybe it is because you care so much, but you don't feel the pain i feel whilst going over it time and time again. Or may be you do in your own way. I try to understand, really i do you point of view. But no matter how awful i tell you the experience was, it's not the answer you want, or what you want to hear, so i must be lying. But i'm not!

I not only love you i'm in love with you, but i've told you this before, one day perhaps you'll except me for me, and not read some ulteria motive into my actions!

The trip to the hague sounds good, let me know when you're sure, as there's no point booking it up till you are!

Everyone on here has given at length their advice to you for some weeks now, i hope it'll start to really help us soon. I know being able to talk ( for a short time) to london, helen, shadow, kate, tan etc has really helped me, and i thank them very much for taking the time, in such a strange situation.

sue

[Helen]

I'm only asking you about the other guy becuase I'm scared you will leave me for him if he comes knocking, if I didn't care, I wouldn't ask.She has already said she won't. So why is it still an issue?

[Helen]

Seems a bit unfair for Murray to focus on what has been done to him when he has done so much more to you. He says here that there is no point airing dirty laundry in public. So why is he busily airing yours to all and sundry?


Helen

[London]

Maybe it is because you care so much, but you don't feel the pain i feel whilst going over it time and time again. Or may be you do in your own way. I try to understand, really i do you point of view. But no matter how awful i tell you the experience was, it's not the answer you want, or what you want to hear, so i must be lying. But i'm not!


people who actually care make an effort and prove that they care. This obsession is more about him than about you Sue. Look at the evidence Sue. What evidence do you have that he really cares except for him uttering those words out of his mouth and over an Internet connection?

Do you also think a trip to the hague with this man will be good for you? It will be the same as your trip to Berlin or what goes on in Norfolk. Look at the evidence. You said it yourself... the man does not let go. Does that really sound like a man who cares too much about you? I don;t think so - he's thinking only about himself..... he ruined your night at the pub in Berlin (and lord knows it wasn't just that one night). He puts you through the same thing even if you are sleeping with him and moaning his name. He can't let go. That's not love. That's obsession and self-love.

[shadow]

I was so hurt when i was left that i made the biggest mistake of my life, i went out with someone else

Stop beating your self up over that! I think once you stop beating yourself up on it then you will find the strength to make Murray stop and your realationship can begin to heal. Sounds like we are alot alike, I am 41 and have only been with 2 men, I married both of them. Sex is very personal and it means alot to me, I am not so old fashion that I believed I had to be married before sex is allowed, but I do believe that it should be with someone you truely care about. Could be you feel the same and why you feel so bad about the affair with the other man. And because you feel bad about it, Murray uses that to continue making you feel bad and making it all about him. Forgive yourself today and tell yourself you are only human. Once you can put that to rest within yourself, murray is going to have to change his tune and realize that it is not about him.

The future can't become reality if all i do is shout and scream about whats been done to me. I'm hurting more inside with things that come to mind,

But theses issues do need to be address, avoiding the issues is a formula for disaster. Sweeping Negative feelings and lingering questions under the carpet makes genuine healing unlikely. I get so sick of having to discuss this issue with my Husband, I would love to be able to make it just go away and go on, but in the end, I have found that the communication between us even tho they are very painful for both of us sometime is really helping, we are bonding and we are getting closer. Conversely, talking about the affair cant be the only thing you do. Couple need to recognize the importances of both talking about their difficulties and spending time together without discussing painful topics. They need to create opportunities to reconnect, taking walks, go to to eat or a movie.

I could detail all things to you about the things that i feel have been done to me, since sept let alone the events since xmas. Things you wouldn't understand or believe, i'm not sure i do,

I would believe you and I would understand, I use to think that no one else knew how I was feeling and when i found people that did, people I could talk to and know they felt the same way at one point or another is such a relief. Having a place to vent out somedays, really does help me it takes some of the pressure off so that i can concentrate on making my realationship work.

but as you see it feels a one way road.

Yes we see that and we are trying to get thru to him. He realizes what he needs to do but now he needs to act on it. Healing from a affair involves teamwork. Both spouses must be fully committed to the hard work of getting their marraiges back on track. And right now he is only thinking about his self, about how he feels, and he needs to stop and put you first. It is time for him to stop saying it and start showing it. Even in his last post he said he realizes what he has done and it is his fault.....BUT......he needs to stop them buts... stop putting that little input on himself. I know he is hurting, we both realize the pain and can understand it, but he brought it on himself, and now he needs to stand up and stop thinking of himself. He got a taste of his own medicine, swallow it and drop it.

As I told murray look in my profile, my yahoo is in there..... if you dont have yahoo then you can send me a message from a link that it will take you to and you can give me your addie or if you have other chat programs like icq I have them too.

[molly]

Thanks london, helen and shadow for replying!

I do appreciate having you to talk to, i just wished i'd of found you all earlier, as you really do help me.

It's nice not to have a pretence still going, and for you to actually know my name, it would be great if we could all that is london, helen, shadow actually meet up and have a coffee. I'd like to be able meet the people who have helped me, and not judged, who have been able to give advice with no adgenda.

I've tried to send shadow a e mail, but seem to be having difficulty accessing the e mail address, so i will carry on trying.

sue

[shadow]

I have it checked to allow users to send me emails, but for some reason it dosnt work :-(

I just sent a email off to the adminstrator if they do not forward the message on to you then I will just post it.

[molly]

Hi,

Just thought i just say thanks to you all once again, i know you've all given as much help and advice as you can. So i won't carry on asking for what you all have already given, as i did't mean to ask for the impossible, just advice and some help.

I can see that there is an issue between murray and london and i'm sorry if i've made it worse. As it seems as now that its gone on to someone elses cry for help.

I hope my problem gets resolved in time, of which i'll give it all i can.

I'll keep in touch and let you know how things work out, hopefully there'll be a happy ever after ending.

I won't be getting together with murray till at the earliest mid week if not next weekend, so i'm hoping things will be getting better, and we can start re building again.

sue

[London]

Hi,

Just thought i just say thanks to you all once again, i know you've all given as much help and advice as you can. So i won't carry on asking for what you all have already given, as i did't mean to ask for the impossible, just advice and some help.

I can see that there is an issue between murray and london and i'm sorry if i've made it worse. As it seems as now that its gone on to someone elses cry for help.

I hope my problem gets resolved in time, of which i'll give it all i can.

I'll keep in touch and let you know how things work out, hopefully there'll be a happy ever after ending.

I won't be getting together with murray till at the earliest mid week if not next weekend, so i'm hoping things will be getting better, and we can start re building again.

sue

Sue - perhaps you can take the time away from murray to reflect on what you need. As it stands, you have nothing to apologise for with regards to the issue between murray and i. Not surprisingly, he's again trying to deflect the bully that he is with you on to me becuase i do not like to play his "woe is me game"...

all the best to you and hope you have a good weekend.

[Murray]

London,

just shut you're smartarse mouth for good. You've already been asked to meet by H34 and bottled.

[London]

London,

just shut you're smartarse mouth for good. You've already been asked to meet by H34 and bottled.

Huh? Oooooooooo I am scared... is that what they teach you in Korea to scare people? Wussy. Was i talking to you here? No.... So why are you talking for Sue or for H34? Looking to pick a fight over the Internet? Loser.

I've been asked to meet H34? Oh.... when? When he got tired of screaming in caps and then wanted to fight me.... if he asked politely, i'd take him on that offer. But polite isn't in his (or your) personality.... As it is, I only accept invitations that are sincere... like Sue's....

[shadow]

Molly, I take it they still have not contacted you with my email addie yet. I will check into it, I would love to post it but not to be mean with the fighting go I would just not rather it post it cause I dont want murray to have it with the way they are acting. But I would love to talk to you and between the two of us we can both try to sort out our feelings that we have to deal with. I have found that venting my anger and hurt out to some else really helps cause then I can get over the main emotional part and be ready to calmly communicate with my husband. I too have not discussed this with anyone, I kept it bottled up inside and found that it was tearing me apart. But once I found others in the exact same boat to talk to, to get it all out, to find out that it is ok to feel that way it has helped so much. Even my husband has recognized the difference in me, and I would love to be able to help you and you help me.

[molly]

Thanks shadow, i would love to be able to talk to you via email but no, i don't have your email address. Well not as yet!

I can see that london and murray constantly clash, i wish i could help, as it rubs off on to everyone, which is a real shame.

I do wish we could all get together, but i guess we all live so far apart, which i guess in londons and murrays case is a good thing. Still different opinions make the world go round, and it wouldn't be good i guess if we all theought or acted the same way. What would we have to discuss. Still sometimes would be nice.

I probrably have to much time to reflect, as i spend most of my time on my own, my daughter who's 15 is off out doing her own thing, and murray's away. I think sometimes to much time apart makes you think more, get lonely, and dwell on the past, which isn't always good. As it sometimes makes your imagination run wild! I've never been one to go out and about pubbing or clubbing, its just not me. Still time, i hope will heal, and bond us again tighter.

I'll wait to here from you shadow, re your email, take care both of you!
sue

[Murray]

Sue,

I've just arrived in Seoul overnight before flying to the hague tomorrow. I won't respond to London anymore, we clearly have a personality issue and can't get on so rather than spend time goading him/her I'll butt out.

I hope your em conversations with Shadow work out. I thought that going onto the site would help YOU specifically, and it seems to be doing just that.

Remember when we spoke the weekend before I came away that the 'risk 'is that you will have a load of different dimensions to this than purely mine, and that also seems to be the case as well. I knew the risk is that you would see a different perspective on this and leave, I was prepared for that as a consequence of trying to fix it.

A lot of people on here have called me selfish and self centred, you have too with some justification in many cases, I guess in this instance I don't see how this is so. By introducing you (not patronising) to this forum and other people on it, it has given you a host of alternative views and thoughts that may lead you to move on.

There's a chance as well that this may fix itself as a consequence, which is what I want, but it's by no means certain is it.

Anyway, no more cyber fighting from me, I hope you can get together with whom you like and find what your looking for as well.

Russ
x

[husband34]

Huh? Oooooooooo I am scared... is that what they teach you in Korea to scare people? Wussy. Was i talking to you here? No.... So why are you talking for Sue or for H34? Looking to pick a fight over the Internet? Loser.

I've been asked to meet H34? Oh.... when? When he got tired of screaming in caps and then wanted to fight me.... if he asked politely, i'd take him on that offer. But polite isn't in his (or your) personality.... As it is, I only accept invitations that are sincere... like Sue's....

Ill am fully prepared to meet you any time big mouth. Name the day and time and trust me ill be there with pleasure !

In fact give me your number and we can arrange right now ?

[molly]

I'm sorry to everyone who has tried to help my situation, that it's turned into this.

I've received lots of advice, help, oprinions which have varied in some shape or form.

I am going to really try to fix things, as i really do love murray, although i'm not sure about his feelings for me right now. I've said before to him, i think that when he gets what he wants, he longer wants it!

I wish with all my heart he hadn't of left me, but i also wish i hadn't made things worse. Which is what i've done!

I really wish it would fix right now, but i guess untill i can prove to murray somehow that he's 1st not 2nd choice, it won't go away. I'm at my wits end of what to say or do, but i keep trying, i tell him i love him, but nothing seems enough. I tell him the truth, but still no good, what more can i do, or say?

Sue

[Kate]

Ok enough's enough. Please can you agressive men express your agression somewhere else. If you can't clean up your act, then we will block you until you cool down.

Shadow and Molly, we have forwarded the contact details as requested - hope they arrive soon.

Kate

[shadow]

Kate,

First thanks for the speaking up about what is going on, I just moaned when I saw that he posted here now. Guess my last post in his forum, tho directed at Murray didnt sink in with him.
And thanks for forwarding our emails on, I do think that would be great help with her. I have not recieved anything yet in the email, dont know if she did or not but will keep my eye out for it. Thanks!!




Molly,

No reason to apologize, no one on here blames you for the action of others, and you didnt bring it on.

Having alot of time on your hand does make the mind wonder and think to much. It use to be really bad for me during the day while the kids were in school and hubby was at work. Some days I would get depressed and just sit around ignoring the things that need to be done, but so numb that I couldnt do anymore then just lay on the coach. Some days the anger would come to boil, and I would pace around the house slamming things, starting to do something but not able to finish it cause I couldnt hold my concentration on one thing for that long and then start pacing the house. Whiy I was glad to find a place to vent especially when the anger hits cause then I could scream and be mad and get it out of my system so that way by the time my hubby came home I had it all out and more calmed again, without being able to do that I would of just bottled it up and it would of bursted when my husband would walk in the door.

My husband did figure out that I having such a hard time while he was gone to work so he started calling me every once in while to say that he loved me, and now for the past month he does it every day. It has really helped me alot, hearing his voice calms me when I am scared and it does make me feel special knowing that he is thinking of me while he is gone to work.

The days are getting a little better, I still have trigger moments but it is getting little easier now. The darks can still be a little hard, he will fall asleep and I will lay there and my mind will just go in all different direction, so I end up getting up and trying to find something to soothe my feelings and stop the images so I can go to sleep. I know I can wake him and tell him I have a bad time but I really do try to avoid that so he can get his sleep for work. I save it as last resort.

Man what I would have done for a macine to go back in time to before he slept with another women!!!! I have prayed for that LOL but I know we cant and some time that makes the healing harder is the wishing. We just have to tell ourselves that it wont be the same but in the end it will be a stronger and better realationship because of it.

I dont know what to say about your convicing Murray that he is first choice, we have tried to tell him that your action by coming back to him is enough proof, but we cant seem to get it to sink in. To me you have told him, you took him back, there is not much else you can do besides just doing the basics of repairing the marriage. He is just going to have except it, work it out within himself now, cause it is his problem, he needs to figure it out on his own just like you and me have to figure out our feelings about it. Dont we feel second best, and not sure if we are loved because they slept with someone else??? We have to deal with it too. Have ever thought of asking him if your second best, does he love you? He will say yes.... right??? But how do you know for sure. If that is the way you feel maybe you should ask him the same question that he asks you, and he will hopefully understand that he cannot prove it any more then you can. That he is there with you because he want to be with you and loves you, the same way by you being there and gving him another chance is proof enough.

[Murray]

Kate,

apologies for being hostile on the site on a number of occasions. I'm sorry, I don't care for bullies and will react but as requested, in all cases I won't respond / communicate with London whatsoever regardless of what is said.

Shadow, again, tks for talking with Molly (Sue). We are having difficulties, and you're right I am having a very hard time believing that she wanted me back in preference to him. You asked her to ask me the same question ie is she 2nd best and I would say no - I did come back to Sue and she has proof of this as the OW came round the house and told her so.

Sue and I have talked endllesley about this but the fact is (from my own point of view) that yes, Sue asked me all the time to come back to her until she moved her relationship to the next level anf became intimate with him. From then on in she never once, not once, asked me to come back, not once, in fact I was told every single time that she really liked the guy and didn't and wouldn't break up with him no matter what. I came to the house and begged her to come back to me, but every time the answer was no, I like him too much. I came back from abroad after pleading with her all week when agreed to try again, then to be told under no circumstances no, and I was shown the door and she locked the gates behind me then came straight in and called him up to discuss it. It's her business of course as she was not with me, she was with him, but at no point at all did she want me back and made a point of telling me she wanted him and didn't want to leave him for me.

Fair do's, I walked in the first place and probably didn't deserve another chance. After having the gates locked behind me I didn't contact her pleading or asking for 10 days and boy was that hard to do. He stayed over at the house both those weekends (she told me this) and then 'she finished with'. By sheer coinicidence, I broke and called her and she told me she had finished it with him that day.

She then agreed to start over saying she was going to contact me anyhow and I came back & 'moved ' back in for the 2 weekends I was home. During this time she emailed him asking to go back etc and all the other stuff you know.

So, yes probably I don't deserve a 2nd chance, and I know everybody has been saying that I don't and I'm at fault, but put yourself in my shoes and ask if you wouldn't have doubts about being 2nd best given the cicrcumstances.

Sue has proof that I finsihed it to come home to her, I don't. He said in one of his em's 'I'll come and rescue you one day if you go back with him for the wrong reasons. Sue actually said in both em's that she was going to get back together with me for all the wrong reasons but would nonetheless - unless he wanted to come back. So I'm waiting on a daily basis for his call to come and rescue her.

Yes this has been written before, yes you all may have heard it before, and yes I'm still hurting and doubtful.

My message therefore is this - I know you have all heard this before so if all most of you want to do is come on here and tell me to shutup, be grateful and stop whining - please don't bother.

If you would like to help, please do. Maybe I'm beyond help on this and nobody has a solution I can buy into, I don't know but I do care.

However, I won't respond any longer to certain people who only wish to give me a hard time for leaving Sue in the 1st place, that I can assure you, and apologise if I have caused offence to the people who control this forum.

Best wishes,
Murray (Russell)

[shadow]

dont know if you should of posted a new thread for this since this is for molly to work out her part in it. but I will answer here and maybe next time you should start a new one, one for you to work out what you got to deal with it and one for her to do the same.

I did come back to Sue and she has proof of this as the OW came round the house and told her so.

She also did come back to you


Sue asked me all the time to come back to her until she moved her relationship to the next level anf became intimate with him. From then on in she never once, not once, asked me to come back, not once

In her first reaction she was bewildered and hurt and just so shock that the one that claimed to love her had left her. But you never came back, so she went and found someone to make her feel loved, make her feel attractive, to build her self confidence to do everything to make her feel like a real woman, because you left her. because you would not come back to her when she asked, because you destroyed her as a woman and ruined something that was held precious by your own action.
You did not want her when she asked, why should see you just jump when you was ready???? She was hurt and anger after the shock wore off. Why did you wait till she was involved with someone else before you agreed to come back or attempt to get her back??? Be honest with yourself.... ask your self this..... if she was the one that left you first to go and be with another man, you asked her to come back, she said no, and then you got involved with another woman and bammmmmm all of a sudden she wants you back, would you of jumped right away and left that women to run back to her???? Be honest cause you know the answer will be no, cause if it was yes then why did you not return right away when she asked???
If I was in her shoes, and had what happened to her happen to me I would of said no at first too, the first reaction would be because at first just the shock of after being turned down and all sudden a change in heart. The feelings of will you left me, you made your bed it is your problem now, and then she needs to debate if she wants to put her heart on the line again, you destoryed it once, would you do it again. Even tho she still loved you she had to decide if she wanted to risk it all again, and could she trust you not to do it again, and decided not to risk her heart again, and was still very hurt and angry at what you did to her, and you did deserve those emotions she had, it is a very hard decision to decide on giving the other a chance, if what decsion you make will be the right one. Trying to decide and dealing with emotions of being hurt by someone you love is not easy. My opionion is she made the right one, she didnt jump when you asked, cause if she would have then you knew you had her and can continue hurting her knowing she would take you back everytime.
Knowing that you only asked me back after I got involved with someone else would play a hugh factor into it too, cause if I wasnt good enough for you to come back on my own, only after you found out that yes I was desired by other men would make me question your motive of wanting me back.
With fact of you wanting her back and her having to decide what, it is very obvious she took a risk with her heart and let love win the battle by giving you another chance. It has really nothing to do with the other man, it had to do with she didnt want to risk her heart, she was hurt by what you did, and said heck with you, like you said heck with me.

but at no point at all did she want me back and made a point of telling me she wanted him and didn't want to leave him for me.

And what did you say to her, what feelings did you express about the other women when she wanted you to come back and you refused????? What was your feelings for the other woman????? Had to be something for you to decide to ruin someone who loved you life?

Sue has proof that I finsihed it to come home to her,

What proof does she have??? Your word??? After you having a affair and leaving her, your word is not good enough anymore, you broke that trust the day you left her and went with another woman. The fact that you broke up with the woman and wanted her back. Well first that only happened after she moved on and got involved with another man, and still the same..... be able to know you are telling the truth.

Sue actually said in both em's that she was going to get back together with me for all the wrong reasons but would nonetheless

Love can be the right reason, but love can also be the wrong reason. A women gets beaten and abused by her husband, she stays with him even tho she knows one day his temper will get out of control and might kill her, why? because she loves him....... she does not deserve to be beaten and staying with him because of love is wrong. Going back to you and risk you hurting her so bad just because of love could very well be very wrong decsion when you are thinking with your head, knowing what you might get hurt again, but tho your heart says it still loves you, and then listening to your heart.

So I'm waiting on a daily basis for his call to come and rescue her.

She lives with that fear every day too! Waiting for you to go jump into another bed!

[gdyngreg]

Molly you seem to keep asking the question. WHY. That seems to be the main subject of all your post's. I am not a perfect human by any means so I am just giving some observations not jugdments. OK?

We as human beings tend to get into situations based on the decisions we make at any given moment. Our decisions seem to affect our lives and our well being for eons. We tend to make these decions through the color of the len's we are wearing at the time. These len's are shaded or colored by our expeiriences and decisons of the past. We carry around baggage that weigh's down our judgements. Everything we do in life seems to be based on those experiences.

So in reality everything we do is because of something else we did or experienced. Seems like a visious circle doesn't it?
Sometimes the desions we make are based on what someone else did to us. The perpetrator of course is wearing their own colored glass's. Everything we do or say in life affects some one else and ourselves. Seems like their is no way out. Save one!

His name is Jesus Christ. I think you know him. He gives us pair of clean len's in the glass's of this life. So we get a new life to begin. However we remain in this life only to watch our clean glass's begin to get shaded again by the consequensos of living here and dealing with people and family. I believe this is the greatest dillema we face as a people that love our Lord and Savior. Prayer seems to be our only way of keeping the len's clear. Yes we fail. Yes we ask why. We just have to get up off our knees now and move forward. His healing touch to our hearts in prayer help us to make the right desicion next time we face a choice. Perhaps next time you are tempted to have a marital relationship and not be married? Not that I havn't made a mistake like that either. I can relate.
God Bless





Hi to you all, and thanks for listening and giving me your adivce and opinions!

Yes you're all right i am murrays partner, he suggested i talk to you all, as he said it could help me, as it has him. Whether it has or not, i don't know, as he still behaves the same way toward me, about the past.

I've gone through the threads suggested, and i can't disagree with you i just wish it could of done some good. I can feel that i'm not on my own with this, and what i went through, its nice to able able to talk with people who have had the same experiences, and who understand, the reasons behind our actions.

I would like to ask this though, as i don't understand why i did this myself!

As you all know from murrays threads, i sent my x a couple of e mails which were posted by murray, so you may of seen the them already.

I can't explain why i sent them except that i bitterly regret it, and there was no truth behind them. I told him i loved him and that i missed him, and would like to get back with him. And that if i got back with my partner it would be for all the wrong reasons.

When in reallity i didn't want to get back with him, i didn't love him, as i'd ended it with him, as i still loved my partner and wanted to work things out with him, although i didn't know if i could..

I don't understand what lead me to send them, except i was feeling insecure trying to rebuild my relationshipe with my partner, and i just wanted to talk to someone who would understand, as he'd seen what i'd been through, and have a shoulder when needed to cry on. Although my partner had come back he hadn't brought any of his belongings back, so i didn't know whether he was back for good, or it was a case of him still having his cake and eating it. And as time has told he still was. But i still don't regret breaking up with my x, as if he came back knocking on my door today, it would make no difference, i wouldn't have a relationship with him again as it was a mistake then.

I'd never said to my x anything about any feelings i'd got for him at the time of the relationship, as i didn't have any, so i don't know what came over me to tell him on the e mails. But he never quetioned it when replying to the emails, so why? Did he know all along how i actually did feel, that i guess i was using him, just as a support, as i felt lonely.

I know that if he'd of come back saying ok lets get back together again i'd of said no i'm sorry.

What leads us to do such things? to lie to someone to obtain some kind of comfort.

I don't understand, and my partner says i wrote them as i meant them, but i didn't and he doesn't understand. But all along he'd kept in contact with his girlfriend, which doesn't make what i did right, as it wasn't.

I've tried to be totally truthfull, even over the sexual side of things that i experienced in our time apart, but nothing seems to give him the reassurance he wants, that i'd like to give. That i'm in this because i want to be, and because i love him very much, all of which i've told him over and over.

So any of you out there with any advice? that could help me understand why i did what i did!

Thanks to you all, as this must be a strange one, to hear both of us telling you how we feel.

[molly]

Shadow thanks again for your time, i still haven't received your e mail address, and i don't know if you've got mine?

It's strange to try and put the real hurt into words well its is for me to murray as it soon becomes a tit for tat situation.

You know i don't know where to start. It turned out that he'd been seeing this other woman for some months before he left, as you already know, she was an old school girlfriend. Although he work overseas, when he was home they'd meet up, not sure how often, or all the places, although he said it was just for coffee just down the road from where we live. On our door step.

The first night he left me he spent it with this woman, at a hotel, although nothing sexually happened, aparently. I text and called that weekend end but got no answer. I didn't know that she had even picked him up from the airport and brought him closer to home, for me to pick up.

As i said i'd help arrange his daughters 21st birthday party, which was being held the following sat, i obviously was no longer welcome. But he took his girlfriend, and introduced her to family and friends. But i still didn't know and when i received the letter, i couldn't believe it, i felt humiliated, as if they were all laughing at me for being so stupid. I still feel like it.

So yes this relationship i had, progressed wrongly i felt unloved, unwanted, humiliated, worthless by murray.

I'd been asking him for weeks to come home, even after i'd started to see this bloke, as it was meaningless, but no, he wouldn't. But then i received this letter telling me what had been going on, so then i made the fatal mistake, this was about 3 weeks after meeting him. But it was still meaningless, and when murray asked about someone else i admitted it, i never lied. And no i didn't ask him to come back again, as how much hurt can you take, i felt that i didn't just want to do as i was told. He wouldn't come back for weeks i'd asked and asked but he wasn't ready, he obviously thought i'd not suffered enough. I really wanted him to want me, and i should of ended the relationship i was in, as it really meant nothing. But i also thought if i did do as i was asked, murray could still be carrying on with this woman and me again, and i just wanted this bloke for some support and someone to talk to. But things wronly progressed, for the wrong reasons. When i realised i was carrying on with something i didn't want, for the wrong reasons, i decided to end it and take the chance of being on my own, rather than being with this bloke for the wrong reason. This would of been settling for second best.

So we tried to fix our relationship as you know, and i really screwed up by reacting to a text with emails i received from this bloke. Of which you know.

But when murray came back for xmas he knew all this, nothing else has come out of the wood work. He even told me that my jewellry he taken, the majority of which he thrown in the river, as he was so angry at seeing this bloke in his/our house. I accepted it as a reaction to what i'd done, i was really hurt and upset, as many of the things are irreplaceable as they were sentimental. But i still love murray enough to move on.

But i've now met his girlfriend after he sent her a text to end it, so yes i know he ended it. Murray talks about the emails he read that i sent, for which i'm sorry , but his girlfriend also had several letters he'd sent to her, that she wanted me to read, but i decided not to, as i thought i'd been hurt enough. She also had nice cards she wanted me to see that he'd sent her but i didn't want to read them. So murray talks about reading my emails, i wonder if it would be the same if i'd of read the love letters. My relationship as i said was meaningless, unlike his they/she was making wedding plans.

But it doesn't make me feel better, as she told me she picked him up from the airport and brought him home at xmas, i was at work so couldn't. She told me that they stopped for lunch, on the way. Bearing in mind we were trying to fix things, she even went over to holland for two nights the day after i'd left there after spending two nights.

So if i was wrong not to carry on begging him to come back, after i'd started to see someone else, i'm truely sorry. As i carried the relationship on to long with this bloke for the wrong reasons. I was hurt, felt unloved, unwanted, ugly, worthless, all the worst things a woman can feel. But these feelings were only felt, because the person i loved/love so very much did it to me. And i'm sorry for reacting the way i did, and i have to live with the consequences of my actions. And that's why i'm here right now.

But i am very sorry for one thing i havn't said to all of you about, the other weekend, was awful, we began to argue over something irrelevent, to be honest, and i was letting out frustration or whatever i don't know, and i slapped murray twice on the face, and i'm really sorry and ashamed of what i did. I have no excuse for that, i'm sorry.

Murray can say about waiting for the day i,m rescued by this bloke, i would never leave him for any other man, as i didn't. I Knew then what i had, as i do now, i just want things to go back to the way they were, before he was seeing someone else. I want my life back with him. For me no one could ever replace him, i just wish he felt the same!

Sue

[Kate]

Dear Molly and Murray



I have read some of your postings. I haven't managed to keep up with them all - you have both written at great length.



Standing back I wonder what the two of you have as a couple which will enable you to build a strong long lasting relationship even a marriage. You don't seem able to work through your difficulties and move forward. You seem to chew things over and over and it doesn't seem that either of you is really listening to the other. The raison d'etre of your relationship seems to be the issue between you, rather than any solution.

Murray travels a lot, so you don't have the time together to spend time together and rebuild trust (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/relbasictopic/trust/), which seems to be a key issue.


I do wonder if the only hope for you is to park the past, take a break from each other and other dating for a while and just get on with life.

If after that you still want to make a life together, I suggest that you do a FOCCUS (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/services/foccus/) questionnaire with a trained facilitator and look carefully at what you are looking for in a relationship.

Kate

PS Molly and Shadow, I'll re-send the email to get you in touch.

[molly]

Thanks kate for your view!

I feel ready and am able to move forward, as i have been, however the issue is with murray. As he feels 2nd best, i don't know what to physically do to prove to him, he is and has always been 1st choice. We've been through a terrible time, which i hope is in the past.

I talk to him and tell him i love him to bits, and always have, and that i made a mistake after he'd left, and had a meaningless relationship, which has been over for 4 months, and i havn't seen or had any contact. I'm back for good, because i love him, and want us to move forward.

I've tried to explain my feelings and explain why i did what i did, and not because i want to dwell on the past. I've tried to explain how i felt, to try to understand myself why i did what i did, as i feel bad about the way i behaved, and i can make no excuse, it was wrong and i'm sorry.

So i'm sorry if it appears that i'm not letting go, i have, i just want to move on, and wish murray could do the same.

I'm on my own and its just nice to hav someone to talk to, that's all!

I hate talking about the past, because it is what it is the past, and unfortunately it can't be changed. No one more than me could wish it could.

So i guess i'm just rambling on here, so i'll go now!

sue

[Kate]

Dear Molly

I didn't mean to discourage you from coming here to talk and find support.

I just had the sense that you were both going round in circles. It may well be that you have said all you can to Murray and he is the one who needs to to let go and be ready to move on.

One of the problems with you both posting here is that your conversations with each other get drawn to being through the forum instead of directly to each other.

Kate

[London]

So i'm sorry if it appears that i'm not letting go, i have, i just want to move on, and wish murray could do the same.

I'm on my own and its just nice to hav someone to talk to, that's all!

I hate talking about the past, because it is what it is the past, and unfortunately it can't be changed. No one more than me could wish it could.

So i guess i'm just rambling on here, so i'll go now! x

Sue, you are more than welcome to talk to us here no one is saying you are not welcome - i agree with Kate that it seems that when murray "responds" to you here - it becomes a forum discussion - which i don't think helps the two of you. You've seen how he lashes out - and to be honest, I can see him doing that to you in other venues (as you confirmed when you described Berlin).

The other thing I see, is while you are prepared to move on, you're not the one with the "issue" - murray is. And Kate just said the same thing as I have been saying to you a while back - "take a break from each other and other dating for a while and just get on with life."

Good luck honey..

[Murray]

Hi,

Sue, I've just got in from Korea about 30 mins ago

I guess the reason we are talking thru here is that I spend so much time away and when I am home we quickly degenerate into a row. Yes, I admit I do lash out, and I also admit it is my problem ie can't seem to let go of this.

I don't expect any of you to understand, sympathise whatsover, or agree with me. But when you walk into what was your house on a truly horrid day (I won't go into reasons why but Sue knows) to find a guy leaning against your landing wall it takes it out of you.

How many men wouldn't have thrown something that meant one hellavu lot to you too into the bloody river. Nobody has mentioned that I sat down by that same river and cried my eyes out for two hours though have they ?

I don't really care for the brigade who would tell me that it was no longer my house anymore so I had no rights, when Sue and I 1st got together she was living in her ex husbands and her house after he'd moved out. I never once stepped foot in there, Sue totally agreed as well as - 'it was not the right moral thing to do '. What changed then ? If the roles had been reversed and Sue had left me, there is not a chance I would have ever brought another women into her house, that I can garuantee. Why ? Out of respect to her no matter how much I was feeling hurt.

Sue had asked me to get back together for the week after I'd left, I then went away for 4 weeks to Oman so was physically unable to go home even if I'd wanted to. I used the time away to re-evaluate and had emailed her nearly every day asking to come back. I was asking her long before she hooked up with the OG so whether she was with him or not made no difference to me realising I had made a huge mistake and wanting to go back.

In fact even after Sue had got serious with the guy at the hotel I asked to move back when I got back from Oman and she said yes. When I got there she turned me down after me spending most of two days there saying she really liked the OG and wouldn't break up with him.

It had nothing to do with me knowing about him that made me want to go back, but it did have everything to do with him that Sue stopped asking me and instead told me that she was definately not going to break up with him as he started to spend more and more time round the house.

You know the rest. Sue did have proof, the OW came round the house and told her. All I have is Sue's word, which all of you take as gospel, but the em's from him saying 'he can't come back at the moment for the reasons she knew but I'll come and rescue you later' tell me another story.

I'm cast as the bad guy because I left her. I absolutely never had an affair with the OW out of respect for Sue but we did spend some time having a cup of coffee down the seafront near our home which was wrong. Period.

But I left a perfectly good, loving, happy relationship for an old girlfriend, or at least thats how it's portrayed.

I remember, or at least I think I do, one of Helens posts about her breakup, where her husband left and it wasnt until later that she found out he was unhappy about something quite serious, or at least serious to him, but she was unaware of it. Helen, apologies if I have this a little wrong, no offence intended, but my point is this.

Why do people leave perfectly happy, loving homes - for no reason other than a roll in the hay ? One or two might if they are serial womanisers or whatever the term is for women who do it, but most people don't unless they are really unhappy.

One of the key problems Sue and I have, which is compounded 1,000 times or more by me leaving her and all the rest of the stuff is that for absolute ages I was not listened to, ignored when chosen to be, treated with no respect, was left on 3 occasions becuase of sulking, and suffered days of sulking about next to nothing, all blamed on PMT which nothing was sought about to have treated despite my please. In fact I even noted down in my diary when it was going to be each month so I could identify the signs and know to keep out of the way or try and help. Even saying I fully understand, why not go for a drive or something until she has calmed down and be friendly again.

What an absolute ar**hole of a partner I am/was.

When finally it seemed it had been treated a few months after my Mother died. The card came through my door and after a couple of months I made contact becuase I was not being listened to at home.

Sue, remember the time the tube was bombed the evening I came back from Oman. I was in Aldgate some 10 hrs before it was blown up. (I recall it was aldgate, but it was the central line anyhow) I asked the day after if you would run me to Heathrow in 4 days time as I was scared of another tube attack. You refused on the grounds that it was too boring on the way back for you in the car. So I got the train, then the tube, then two days later they tried again but failed.

I guess most of you out there will be thinking, so what, you didn't get hurt did you ? Well you're right I didn't. But it would have been nice for the effort that particular time to have been made and maybe try to overlook the boredom just once.

Just my view though.

So I was unhappy and couldn't communicate. I finally gave up and found somebody else who listened and was interested in what I was doing. Trouble is, I love Sue deeply and have lived in hope for years she can change to THE PERSON SHE SAID SHE WANTS TO CHANGE INTO which is why I don't give up.

So you see, it has nothing to do with her going with somebody else that prompted me to accelerate my trying to get back with her. Nothing whatsoever. I realised I missed her and wanted to get back. Even after she told me she had been to the hotel with the OG (yes she was single I know that) I still wanted to get back together.

The fact is tho that as soon as she got intimate with the OG I was history and told this everytime. 'Can't stop and talk to you, Mark will be round in a mo, we're going out for dinner' etc etc.

I sent a text on Nov 5th just saying it would have been 7yrs to the day when we moved in together, she had always got onto me about significant dates. I got no reply whatsoever. Zip.

Sadly for me, yes a saddo perhaps, I drove past my old house that night and OG's van was parked on the driveway with the gates padlocked at 11.45 or so. That's why I wasn't txt back of course, somebody else was there so no need to contact him.

YES IT HURT THEN, BLOODY HURT, & YES IT HURTS NOW.

I'd seen the OW loads of time at the local hospital as both my Father and my Mother have died in the last 4 yrs. I'd seen her on a few occasions, knew where she lived, has said hi etc on the times that I'd bumped into her. But d'you know what ? Not once had I considered contacting her to re-kindle anything because although we were having bad times at home and they were getting worse, I still loved Sue very much and kept on trying to communicate.

Only after I'd built up so much resentment toward her that I decided to make contact after the card was delivered and after I was told to catch the tube becuase the journey back was boring. Small minded, knee jerk ? Perhaps, but I'd had enough.

I used to say to Sue on a regular basis 'we're on the top deck of a double decker bus here and low bridge signs ahead keep popping up, we're gonna get so badly damaged here soon we won't be able to pull out, why not fix this by turning off the road '.

Guess what.

What a real a***hole, bully, selfish loser I am.

But I'm still trying, still communicating, still talking about the problems and trying to work them through, hence introducing Sue to this forum, but as you saw from Sue's post I get slapped in the face and threated to leave all morning the day before I fly to Russia for 2 weeks becuase I dared to bring something up that I was upset about. It wasn't about the OG, it was about a personal thing between us.

I don't think I'm a bad guy at all. I've got my faults, many of them and I've obviously put my view on the things here as I see it as it's my view of events, but it's not very far at all from reality.

I'm also not trying to lobby support, I just want help and am trying to balance the scales of what is what.

I'm still trying to see the way forward, I just find it very hard.

Best wishes,
Russell

[helenrw200]

Can I just say that it seems very strange to me that you two ( Molly and Murray ) are supposedly a couple but yet are posting on here to each other ? Even if you are seperated by distances then there are such things as telephones ... or failing that e-mail accounts. Does nobody else think this is weird ?

If you can't communicate even over e-mail, but instead feel the need to talk on a forum then it seems there is little hope for your relationship.

I am not going to offer any advice , everyone on here has already done that... repeatedly.. and I agree with what has already been given, however it seems to me it's time the two of you sat down in private and made a decision once and for all, we cant make that decision for you Murray ( or Russ ) and I fail to see how going over and over the same thing will change anything.

London may be direct, but he's always honest and cuts straight to the chase, I don't think he's bullied anyone, I do think he didn't tell you what you wanted to hear Russ, and from that you've assumed the worst of him. He's given a lot of people a fresh outlook on problems and therefor helped a good deal of us through some very difficult times.

I hope both you and Sue resolve this issue between you, one way or another... and soon. Good luck.

Helen ( rw )

[Helen]

I remember, or at least I think I do, one of Helens posts about her breakup, where her husband left and it wasnt until later that she found out he was unhappy about something quite serious, or at least serious to him, but she was unaware of it. Helen, apologies if I have this a little wrong, no offence intended, but my point is this.

Why do people leave perfectly happy, loving homes - for no reason other than a roll in the hay ? One or two might if they are serial womanisers or whatever the term is for women who do it, but most people don't unless they are really unhappy.Murray,

I have not taken offence. The scenario isn't entirely right but the end result is what matters and that is accurate. We were both unhappy. The problem was, my husband internalised his hurts but displayed them in unreasonable behaviour. And I spent years pleading with him to tell me what was wrong and to have marriage counselling, which he absolutely refused to do. He had no reason to go elsewhere. He had a wife at home who was faithful to him, despite offers, and who begged him on more or less a daily basis to work on the marriage. He chose not to. Instead, he went with someone else. Afterwards he said it just happened and he never intended it to go that far. He asked to come back but still, he refused to work on our marriage. There was therefore no point getting back together and telling me he was sorry and didn't intend to do it after the fact was too late.

People do not walk away from a marriage unless they are unhappy, that's true. But he wasn't the only one who was unhappy and as stated, only one of us was ever willing to go through the pain (and joy) of what repairing a relationship entails. Only one of us was willing to remain faithful while that happened too and it wasn't him.

Regarding your relationship with Sue, I understand you are both hurting. The question is, what are you going to do to move forward?


Helen

[Murray]

Thanks Helenrw, much appreciated.

You're right of course, we do need to sit down and thrash it out, trouble is we're seperated by both distance and tolerance of each other's views.

Sue's very deep and bottles things up (her admission) I want to talk till the cows come home. Makes life difficult.

I hear what you say about bLondon, direct for sure, he didn't tell me what I want to hear but I don't expect that from anybody.

I'll concede I have gone overboard in a lot of my replies to him, am prepared to bury the hatchett and won't respond in a negative sense any more with him.

Tks for getting back to me !

Best wishes,
Russell (I'm kinda sick of Murray, it was my old dog's name..!)

[helenrw200]

Russell

Even if you can't physically sit down and talk together ( for what ever reason ) then you really do need to take back some privacy and discuss this by whatever means you can find. Sue has shown by posting on here that she does want to sort things out, but nobody can give you anymore advice, it now has to be resolved between the two of you.

Talking face to face is difficult, my partner and I have similar problems, but you both seem able to write things down, so that's a good place to start, but truthfully, you now need to do so ( both of you ) without other people's opinions getting in the way.

You've both pretty much opened your hearts on this forum, and people have responded with some good advice, not saying you can't continue ( either of you ) to come here for a chat or whatever, but,I think you both know it isn't going to be resolved by going over the same ground and to be honest there is nothing more any of us can say to help.

It's time for 1 2 1 !

London's heart is definitely in the right place, and his mind is as sharp as a razor, which is why he can be pretty blunt, but sometimes plain talking is what people need.... and I guess if they feel it isn't warranted, then hey, they have the choice not to read it !

I wish you both the best of luck in whatever decision you make.

Helen( rw )

[Murray]

Hi Helen, many tks for your note.

I'm glad you didn't take offence, I wasn't entirely sure but remembered you had said something along those lines. I too had pleaded with Sue for years to fix the PMT (I know it can't just be fixed but something could have been tried) and the associated sulking and moods but nothing seemed to work. Then as she says 'she eventually got it fixed but I'd built up such a wall of resentment for the time she refused to acknowldege what I was asking I couldn't see over it any longer. Then Mum went, a card from an old friend came through, I was unhappy, angry and very very sad ( I didn't know it at the time) about Mum and the tube stuff finally done me in.

I went and looked for friendship elsewhere but did not have an affair ie intimacy. Absolutely not. Then I left becuase I'd got so resentful, Sue went to work, met a guy quickly, you know the rest and I came back to see him in my house as if he owned the freaking place with Sue telling me that he was probably gonna move in.

How many men wouldn't have reacted like I did ? Christ I'd tried for bloody years to just get us off the bus before we hit the bridge but nothing worked. I use to use the example of the hamster in the cage. You know, he runs round the treadmill for ages at breakneck speed getting nowhere then finally gets knackered and gets off. I can relate to that.

Then I find some friendship outside COMPLETELY WRONGLY, and another bloke replaces me within a few weeks in my bloody house. The one (yes I'm sorry but I feel bad) that I've worked away from home for bloody years to completely re-vamp so Sue can feel it's hers and her daughters as well as mine.

D'you know, the morning I left home I was told that the building society would be contacted straight away so I wouldn't go and run up a huge debt that day on our joint option plan account. The OW was not even in the picture at that moment as far as being aware of her existing. It just might have been nice to say instead, 'hang on man, can't we talk about this instead of you leaving '. But no, instead the driver on the DD was told put your foot down, there's the bridge, I'm too stubborn to ask for help.

There it is then, in a nutshell. I'm sorry if it has come out as poor old Russell, becuase it's not poor old Russell, it's sad old, continually trying and being treated with contempt Russell that put us here. Get blown up in the tube ? It could happen to anybody, stop whining.

Well, I'd had enough, got screwed up and left. I then realised very quickly that I still loved her very much and also realised that I had to beg again to get back.

So I did and had the OG jammed down my throat and in my house as much as possible.

Payback ? I've been to places most people have never seen, I can tell you.

Helen, tks again, I know we crossed swords a few days ago, I'm sorry. I'm grateful you've taken the time to communicate with me again.

Best wishes to all,
Russell

[Helen]

Russell,

No problem. I am not one to hold grudges. I think there are some important parallels that I have to mention to you. In particular is the danger inherent in holding onto your pain. I had PMT too, for many years. I would not say I was a monster but for a few days each month, I was very bad tempered and irritable. PMT is no joke and, for a long time, doctors did not take it seriously enough so I am not surprised that Sue couldn't get proper treatment for it until some damage had been done. It is only in recent years that doctors have started to accept that it is a real and, in some cases, debilitating condition. It can destroy relationships. Good nutrition is the key. I recommend a book called The Optimum Nutrition Bible to all my friends. There is a section on PMT supplementation at therapeutic levels. This book enabled me to leave the monster of PMT behind 10 years ago. It has never come back, either.

Anyway, onto my point. I had post-natal depression and my husband held it against me for years - forever - years after the fact. He did not understand that the condition is common. He did not understand that I didn't WANT to be that way! All he knew was that for a year after I had our son, I turned into a different person. Not a bad person. I still functioned, cooked meals, cleaned and took care of the house. But I went off sex. And he has never forgiven me for that. During all of this he was absolutely no support to me. He kept telling me to pull myself together. I wish I could have! Sue had PMT and I am sure, at times, that it was horrible for you to deal with. But maybe, in the aftermath, you could try to look at it another way? She didn't do it on purpose. It wasn't personal. None of it was. If she could have helped it, she would not have behaved that way. I am sure you know that. And if it is better now, that is something to be celebrated - isn't it?

I mention parallels too because there does appear to be a communication divide between you and Sue, just as there was between me and my ex-husband. Sometimes people do not want to hear things or work on issues because they think it is going to hurt or it is too painful. But sometimes a bit of pain is necessary in order to move on. You can decide to do the work, feel the pain (and the joy) and move on. Or you can do what my ex-husband did and hold onto the bad feelings until your relationship implodes like my marriage did.

The conversations between you and Sue - she admits that she hurt you and she wants to make amends, whatever way, and move on. Your response is 'you did this and you did this this too. How do you think that makes me feel?'. Sue then says I know I did and I am sorry. How do we move forward? And your response is 'You did this as well. I am hurting here'. And so it goes on.

Again, I will say, sometimes you have to try to let things go to be able to move on. My ex never could and look where it got us. Sometimes the pain fades. Other times you have to take conscious action to diminish it. Bringing up what Sue has done and the pain you feel isn't going to help you recover - especially if you keep doing it. Acknowledging that she has hurt you and agreeing to find a way to get past your pain will.

Not sure what more I can say on this so I will shut up now!


Helen

[molly]

I've given this my best to try to move forward, but i guess now its run it course. As it's all been said, as i said previously

It would be nice to receive a e mail directly, but no i don't. I must of sent 2 or 3 today to murrays yahoo account but nothing comes back, only through this forum. I'd thought perhaps his flight was delayed so he couldn't, but as i can see this forum was available. I also thought wrongly i might of got a telephone call from the hotel last night, but no. I've sent a couple of texts to his dutch phone this afternoon, but again nothing comes back.

So like you i'm tired of using this to communicate, between ourselves. Its not what the forum is for in my opinion.

sue

[helenrw200]

Russell

I was diagnosed with clinical, drug resistant depression 3 years ago, after having depression for 10 years previous to that, that no amount of anti depressants seemed to cure. Believe me, if I could choose not to have it, was offered a magic pill to make it go away I'd take it like a shot. Have you any idea how it feels to never feel happy or content, but to live life with a black cloud permanently over you ? With PMT you can add to this a total feeling of irritability and pretty much a hatred of being touched, you basically just want to curl up in a ball for a week, in some cases two and wait for it go go.

I basically no longer trust my own judgement of people, which makes trusting anyone virtually impossible. My partner has little understanding of this illness and seems to think I can " snap out of it " . I can't . All of the small things, petty things, become huge in my mind and I worry problems like a dog with a bone, I rarely let anything drop, and always have to find a " reason " for everything in order to justify, well, pretty much everything. I'm irrational and emotional at times, totally numb at others. My partner is no angel, and we've had numerous problems caused by both his actions and mine ( previous threads of mine can explain ), I have to feel in control, which obviously makes me very controlling !

I do therefore have some sympathy with your need to hash over things until they are resolved to your satisfaction, but , the truth is they may never be... and what happens then ?

I've attempted suicide more than once , not particularly because I wanted to die, I was just so tired of living this way and it was the only way out I could see.

I'm telling you this because I think you need to see how things can deteriorate, the way I've lived with my " need to know " has never bought me happiness, it's almost destroyed me and it still could, for your own sanity.. and that of Sue's you need to let it go if you want to stay together, before it gets to the point that one of you can't live with, can't live without.......


Helen ( rw )

[helenrw200]

Sue

It does seem that Russell has a problem communicating directly with you, maybe it's time to leave it and see what happens ? That doesn't mean you can't talk to us on here tho'. How long can you go on being sorry for ? Especially when in actual fact, you did nothing wrong ?

I think you've been pretty understanding, in your shoes I know I'd have been blazingly angry , and apologising would NOT have been on my agenda !

It's hard, but leave the ball in his court , and try maybe being not quite so forgiving when he does get home > I don't mean this in a bad way, but if you let Russell play the victim he will start to justify it to himself and think he is.

And Russell for goodness sake, if you're reading this then communicate, with Sue, not us !

Helen ( rw )

[Helen]

Russell

I was diagnosed with clinical, drug resistant depression 3 years ago, after having depression for 10 years previous to that, that no amount of anti depressants seemed to cure. Believe me, if I could choose not to have it, was offered a magic pill to make it go away I'd take it like a shot. Have you any idea how it feels to never feel happy or content, but to live life with a black cloud permanently over you ? With PMT you can add to this a total feeling of irritability and pretty much a hatred of being touched, you basically just want to curl up in a ball for a week, in some cases two and wait for it go go.

I basically no longer trust my own judgement of people, which makes trusting anyone virtually impossible. My partner has little understanding of this illness and seems to think I can " snap out of it " . I can't . All of the small things, petty things, become huge in my mind and I worry problems like a dog with a bone, I rarely let anything drop, and always have to find a " reason " for everything in order to justify, well, pretty much everything. I'm irrational and emotional at times, totally numb at others. My partner is no angel, and we've had numerous problems caused by both his actions and mine ( previous threads of mine can explain ), I have to feel in control, which obviously makes me very controlling !

I do therefore have some sympathy with your need to hash over things until they are resolved to your satisfaction, but , the truth is they may never be... and what happens then ?

I've attempted suicide more than once , not particularly because I wanted to die, I was just so tired of living this way and it was the only way out I could see.

I'm telling you this because I think you need to see how things can deteriorate, the way I've lived with my " need to know " has never bought me happiness, it's almost destroyed me and it still could, for your own sanity.. and that of Sue's you need to let it go if you want to stay together, before it gets to the point that one of you can't live with, can't live without.......


Helen ( rw )Helen,

I am really sorry to hear that you went through this and continue to go through it. Depression is an awful illness. I think I mentioned in a few posts that I too had spells of clinical depression (over the state of my marriage) while I was with my ex. This was compounded by SAD - Seasonal Affective Depression too. Just when I thought the gloom couldn't get worse, along came the autumn...I never attempted suicide but I had suicidal thoughts. Bad enough to put me in therapy for 2 years.

The thing I wanted to say to you is consider having a look at the book I mentioned in my previous post. My depression was drug resistant too. Drugs just made me act loopy or turned me into a zombie. I was a depressed loon and a depressed zombie. After I had my success with PMT using therapeutic supplementation, I tried supplementation for depression (a range of supplementation regimes are recommeded for a number of illnesses, including schizophrenia). After a month or so, suddenly the days were less gloomy. And this was in the middle of winter too! I felt better and better and have never had a repeat of depression since I used the supplementation regime recommeded in this book.

Patrick Holford (the author of the Optimum Nutrition Bible, the book I am talking about) reckons that a lot of physical and psychiatric illnesses are caused by foods that are grown in overfarmed soil (so that vegetable, while a vegetable, might not be as wholesome as you think), additives and other toxins, such as environmental pollution. If you eat a healthy diet you can still suffer from malnutrition because of environmental and farming factors. He also states that doctors should treat illnesses with therapeutic supplementation (vitamins) before using conventional drugs as most people are suffering nutritional imbalances, which can wreak havoc on the body. I cannot recommend this book enough - honestly. I am going to use his supplementation regime for autoimmune disorders now. What have I got to lose?

Good luck - and if you do decide to try the book, let me know how you get on.


Helen

[Murray]

Helen and Helen rw,

I do understand what you are both saying to me and I'm very very grateful, don't ever think I'm not. Helen, I do (I think) understand about not understanding (?!) PMT and womens related problems, but I was understanding, more so that I've ever been about anything but nothing was going to budge Sue to at least try to seek help until it had gone way too far. You mention a book that you reccomend for self help, ask Sue about the book I read years ago and she has got on her bedside table and has had for absolute months which we discussed may give her a different outlook on things. It's gathering dust day on day. Why not at least try by opening it up and reading a little. Surely thats showing respect and/or care about your partner and relationship to at least try to do something to change a problem that clearly causing problems. That's what I mean first and foremost about respect, it's much like yeah, ok, carry on in the treadmill, you'll get knackered and pack it up soon, you always do.

Helenrw, I've thought about suicide, more times than I want to really admit. Sometimes before I left I thought life was just not worth going on for. I was taken very little notice of, treated with contempt and then the tube thing (I'm not obsessing here) really got to me, it was like - I'm alright Jack, just get on with it, we've all got to die sometime. In fact that was one of the comments used to justify going back down to Heathrow on the train/tube.

I don't mind admitting I cried on the train I was so bloody lonely. I'm close now, pathetic at 48 peraps, but there you go. I cried my eyes out in my house the weekend before going to Korea I was so lonely and we were in the middle of another row

I'm knackered now, jet lagged and fed up. I'm sorry if I go on to you guys, I also sorry if I've gone on too much before, and especially if I've upset people becuase I've become frustrated.

Since my mother went I just haven't had anybody to get it out to and this forum has helped me even if it doesn't always appear so.

tks again,
Russell

[Kate]

Dear Murray


I don't think anyone wants you to go away. We are just saying that you two need to communicate directly rather than through the forum.

I do wonder whether you have any idea what you want from life.

Do you want to get back with Sue?

Do you want to make sense of things?

Do you want Sue to act differently?

Do you want her to change?

Do you want to change yourself?

Do you want company because you are lonely?

Do you need some help grieving for your Mum?

I don't think that you actually know what you want and until you do, you aren't going to get there. I think that you might benefit from going to talk to a counsellor who could help you sort out in your head what the real issues are.

Kate

[Helen]

Helen and Helen rw,

I do understand what you are both saying to me and I'm very very grateful, don't ever think I'm not. Helen, I do (I think) understand about not understanding (?!) PMT and womens related problems, but I was understanding, more so that I've ever been about anything but nothing was going to budge Sue to at least try to seek help until it had gone way too far. You mention a book that you reccomend for self help, ask Sue about the book I read years ago and she has got on her bedside table and has had for absolute months which we discussed may give her a different outlook on things. It's gathering dust day on day. Why not at least try by opening it up and reading a little. Surely thats showing respect and/or care about your partner and relationship to at least try to do something to change a problem that clearly causing problems. That's what I mean first and foremost about respect, it's much like yeah, ok, carry on in the treadmill, you'll get knackered and pack it up soon, you always do.

Helenrw, I've thought about suicide, more times than I want to really admit. Sometimes before I left I thought life was just not worth going on for. I was taken very little notice of, treated with contempt and then the tube thing (I'm not obsessing here) really got to me, it was like - I'm alright Jack, just get on with it, we've all got to die sometime. In fact that was one of the comments used to justify going back down to Heathrow on the train/tube.

I don't mind admitting I cried on the train I was so bloody lonely. I'm close now, pathetic at 48 peraps, but there you go. I cried my eyes out in my house the weekend before going to Korea I was so lonely and we were in the middle of another row

I'm knackered now, jet lagged and fed up. I'm sorry if I go on to you guys, I also sorry if I've gone on too much before, and especially if I've upset people becuase I've become frustrated.

Since my mother went I just haven't had anybody to get it out to and this forum has helped me even if it doesn't always appear so.

tks again,
RussellRussell,

Kate asks some sound questions. But I have to ask you. If you understand what is being said to you, why are you still raising things that Sue has done? Being honest, until the two of you are looking and moving in the same direction, this will never be sorted out. I do feel bad that you felt upset about being alone and I understand much of your anger. Not all of it, but then, I have admitted that. The point is you and Sue are speaking different languages. Sue is speaking reconcilliation, you are speaking hurt. Until you are speaking the same language - until you are both speaking reconcilliation - you will not be able to move forward.

As Kate suggests, maybe you are having difficulty with this because you (maybe both of you) are unclear about what you want. In which case, counselling will help to clarify this for you.


Helen

[London]

London's heart is definitely in the right place, and his mind is as sharp as a razor, which is why he can be pretty blunt, but sometimes plain talking is what people need.... and I guess if they feel it isn't warranted, then hey, they have the choice not to read it !

Helen( rw )

Helen(rw) - thank you for your kind words of support. I know over the last few days, many of the "regular" posters such as Helen, Alwaysgreen, shadow and many others have all said similar words in my defense to what was truly an agressive and bullyish takeover on these boards by a couple of posters (nice to see the mods doing their job there - sorry Kate and Dave but you were no where to be found)! So thank you for not only seeing my true intentions but also being generous in what i have offered.

russell, if you are serious in what you said, then a direct apology would let bygones be bygones from my end......

Sue - there is really nothing more that we can say to you to let you see that you have done NOTHING wrong. Even after reading your side of the story and that of russ (which varied from your take on the duration and beginning of the whole saga) I cannot fault you for anything - well, one thing. And that is - you seem to suffer from low self-esteem at this point. And i cannot help but think that is due to russ beating and badgering you emotionally for something he created. He is the one that "cheated" on you and abandoned you and .... well, know the rest. At this point, i can still only suggest you take a breather from all this and go somewhere to clear your head - somewhere where there is no CONTACT with russ nor with a computer and avoid this place and any emails.... You need to regain your inner woman and then start talking to him again - hopefully in private.

There is just so much "woe is me" drama from russ that again (and i've said this before) it's just about him - its not about getting back together with you as much as it is about him (which is fine if he just admits it and deals with it)

I've thought about suicide, more times than I want to really admit. Sometimes before I left I thought life was just not worth going on for. I was taken very little notice of, treated with contempt and then the tube thing (I'm not obsessing here) really got to me, it was like - I'm alright Jack, just get on with it, we've all got to die sometime. In fact that was one of the comments used to justify going back down to Heathrow on the train/tube.


Kate's list is a good start for russel to start with, but Sue, take the time to clear your head from all of this - even for a short period and come back to it after getting some indication from your heart and mind as to what *you* want and need from a partner.

[Murray]

London,

I could go on and on about how you rubbed me up the wrong way and attempt to justify why I twisted off at you but it would be pointless and not in the spirit of what I'm trying to achieve here. I also don't consider I'm blameless for the cyber fight we had whatsoever, quite the opposite in fact.

Therefore I genuinely apologise to you. :-) Maybe when I'm in London next I'll look you up and we'll have a beer instead of a fight ?

Kate, you are right, I know it.

Qoute - Do you want to get back with Sue? Yes, but not as the way they were before I left

Do you want to make sense of things? Absolutely

Do you want Sue to act differently? Yes I do and have wanted it for years, I've asked and asked hence the bus being stuck example but it made no difference.

Do you want her to change? Yes, again I have wanted it for years. So has she. I used to ask her repeatedly what I was doing wrong for the relationship to go into rows. She said absolutely nothing.

Do you want to change yourself? Yes I most certainly do. I have done already thru reading, discussion, and really recognising where I went wrong when I was married and was determined to change when Sue and I got together. I did as well and it has been remarked upon by most people I know. I'm still not perfect, not by a long way, but I've bloody well tried my socks off.

Do you want company because you are lonely? No, I'm lonely in my relationship that's all, and that's the only relationship I want company, real company in.

Do you need some help grieving for your Mum? I think I do, it's started to come out in me now but perhaps as a consequence of being really sad and down in the dumps about my life now. (London, woe is me?, I guess so) When Mum was alive I would spend hours with her just talking and talking about things and I miss that terribly. She didn't tell me what I wanted to hear either but I miss that type of communication terribly. I want it desperately in my relationship with Sue but it doesn't happen. Sue goes into her shell when any type of controversy comes around and we quickly end up in different parts of the house for days at a time. I then get into a position where I try and try to get her to at least talk to me, then finally lose patience and I go into an area that I find very difficult, nigh on impossible to come out of and we are at it for days, sometimes weeks.

I ask her to climb down from the ivory tower she puts herself into tnru stubborness (Sue's admission) before I'm put in a position I cant come back from but it does no good. I've never met somebody who is so prepared to cut off their nose to spite their face in my life before. It's as if the consequences of the actions mean absolutely nothing to her whatsoever. The Friday I left is in my view the absolute example of this.

Qoute - 'Sue is speaking reconcilliation, you are speaking hurt. Until you are speaking the same language - until you are both speaking reconcilliation - you will not be able to move forward '. And there it is in a nutshell I'm afraid. I would love to speak reconcilliation, I always speak reconcilliation, I've done it so many times after she's walked out before rather than discuss things that this time I just can't seem to give again. It's compounded by me thinking that I've been picked up again because her relationship with the OG didn't work out, so I'll reconcile again but this time as 2nd best. I'm sorry for repeating it but thats the way I feel.

I don't know if I've reached the point of no return, I bloody hope not, but I don't know.

Helen - ' But I have to ask you. If you understand what is being said to you, why are you still raising things that Sue has done? Being honest, until the two of you are looking and moving in the same direction, this will never be sorted out'.

Absolutely right again Helen. I'm still raising them becuase I've heard all this before ie I want to fix this and that then the very next time a problem, a simple life problem arrives up she goes into the ivory tower and I'm left downstairs on my own - lonely.

I'm raising them becuase I'm so angry at why the same pattern keeps coming up. I have forgiven about the OG, granted I had nothing in your view to forgive as she was single at that time, but it still really hurt to see the OG and his van in the driveway etc etc. If I hadn't forgiven I wouldn't be here, again I may not have the right to say that but there it is.

It's not the act/s it's the principle of continually having to give in that hurts me, it's now compounded by the other relationships we both had in our time away.

Again to you all, tks for the support. I would really understand if none of you continued to post as this is a recycling them but tks anyway. Thats not a woe is me thing, its me being honest.

I'm trying to get councilling, I'm thinking of taking time off specifically to get it, But I know deep down what the problem is. If I could believe in Sue wanting and actually making the changes SHE wants to do then I could move forward becuase I do want to be with her.

Yes, the feelings of sadness about the OG would come back every now and then, I also know that Sue is feeling that too about my time away, probably more than me as I left her, but these feelings, as many of you out there have said will fade over time.

The one feeling I desperately want is to be able to believe in Sue's aspirations to change things and keep them changed.

I've used (I've used many, many examples over our time together) an example about giving a dog a biscuit, then kicking him in the nuts as he's eating it. At first he won't know why but will come back for the next biscuit because he likes the biscuit. After a while of this being repeated though he'll just sit in his basket coz the pain of the kick outweighs the biscuit.

That's how I feel and have felt for ages.

tks again and best wishes,
Russell

[helenrw200]

Helen

Thanks for the info on the book, I have been placed on various food exclusion ( and inclusion ) diets previously, with little effect, but I'm always willing and grateful to try anything that's suggested as the alternative is just unliveable.At the moment I am receiving psychotherapy and ECT treatment, which helps short term, but I'm starting to wonder if there is another as yet unfound cause for what's happening to me. I used to be a happy and positive person but for years now I've felt like literally a shadow of myself.

I have a PDN to turn to if the suicidal urges become compulsive, but sometimes I reckon I don't want to be "saved "

I feel devalued as a person because I can't be happy or content.

Russell, it seems as though you and Sue have some deep rooted problems that neither of you can solve , either together or alone, and they go beyond what you've posted ( mainly ) about here.There are 2 sides to every story and in this situation it's impossible to sort out the main issues because they are clouded with past hurts, it's easy for us on the forum to hand out opinions because there's no emotional content for us ( other than maybe sympathy and compassion for you both )

I've reached the conclusion in my own relationship that love is just not enough to build a strong partnership on, there has to be so much more, and if the rest is lacking, the love fades away. My partner and I are such very different people, with totally incompatible ways of doing things that I can't see us ever being truely happy together, so slowly the things we do have are being eroded away and neither of us are getting what we should, or enjoying each other.

The dog and biscuit analogy is interesting, but sadly people are different, we have far more emotional input in life and will take a surprising amount of pain before we "stay in our basket " . A dog just knows it's hungry and wants a biscuit, and that getting kicked hurts. A person would know it could starve without the biscuit and that staying in the basket will be lonely. We therefore keep going for the biscuit long after the dog would have given up.

London

I speak as I find and I have never found your posts to be other than honest, if brutal at times, you react when challenged but then who wouldn't ? Sometimes you say the things that people don't want to hear but nevertheless need to be said, I find that refreshing.

Russell

I think you need to be clear in your own mind what it is you want and then go for it, if having it isn't possible then it's time to walk away, the biggest question you need to soulsearch for is happier with... or without ? Sue may never change, you may never change, people often are what they are and yes you can try, but you also have to accept that you may fail. I wish you well.

Helen

[Murray]

Helen,

tks for as lovely note here. I agree completely with your views, love is sometimes not enough there has to be so much more to be happy. Couldn't agree more re your comments on the dog story. That's why I keep coming out of the basket and have done for years.

I've not asked Sue to change, she's the one who wanted to / wants to but it doesn't appear to happen. It's so sad.

Best wishes to you Helen and tks,
Russell

[helenrw200]

Russell

I'm not saying you have asked Sue to change, but it's clear from your posts that you're feeling the strain of things as they are, and would maybe like her too ?

Helen

[shadow]

I dont understand the part of her having to change, what does she have to change. You hear so many times that you cant change a person.

When you meet someone you fall in love with them for their good points and their bad points, and you cant change who they are, to make them the perfect person we want them to be, if that is true then I wouldnt have to still pick up my husband's dirty socks every night LOL Kidding aside, everyone got bad points along with the good and if you was willing to take them on for the good you have to take on the bad.

As years go by yes people do change, on their OWN, sometimes it is for the better sometimes not. But the person you first met will not be the exact same person on day one. You needed to decide can you still love the person with their change, like they are putting up with your changes. Sometime it is beyond our control the changes in a person they changed with time and that is just natural, we all grow up and look at things differently. But sometimes people change due to OUR action, with the way are treated, with the way we did something and made them look at things differently.

What is it that she needs to change? Maybe she said she wanted to, to make you happy. And that is not the right reason to do it.

If her actions DROVE YOU to the affair, why did you want to try again knowing that she was the same as when you left??? Like to point out that you mentioned all that she did to DRIVE you to the affair, please think about what YOUR actions DROVE her to hers too.

Me and my husband both did a lot of soul searching, and when I say that I looked at myself too, you go on about what she did, that you put all the blame on her. I do not see you standing up and taking responisbilty for your own action.

When me and my husband talk, I do say " if I would of done this, If I wouldnt done that, if I looked like this" etc...... my husband always stop me and says, that it was not my fault, what he did was all his responsiblity, he made the choice and no matter if I was the wicked witch of the west it did not give him the right, he should of worked it out or should of left and did it right before jumping into a another womans bed. He stands up and takes the blame for his action, tho it hurts him knowing that and having to admit it, that he did something very painful to me. But he realizes that he needs to stand up and take the blame where it deserves to go.

I dont see you doing that, yes you do say this and that but you always got a BUT...... and to make yourself feel better for something you have done you say well she did this to make me do that.

A good marriage is putting the other in front of yourself, doing that you will see them respond by doing the same. You did start it, no matter what you had the affair first, you started you guys down the road, now is time to stand up and take the responsiblity in it.

The big question to me is what do YOU need to change???? What part of you makes her react the way she does????

What do YOU need to do to make the realationship work???

[London]

I've used (I've used many, many examples over our time together) an example about giving a dog a biscuit, then kicking him in the nuts as he's eating it. At first he won't know why but will come back for the next biscuit because he likes the biscuit. After a while of this being repeated though he'll just sit in his basket coz the pain of the kick outweighs the biscuit.

So, are you aligning yourself with the dog that's being kicked here and Sue offering the biscuit? In reality, and to use your analogy, Sue is giving you the biscuit, yet it's you kicking her. What do they say, "don't bite the hand that feeds you". Then why are you mauling her to bits?

Again, your posts are all "woe is me" and "its not my fault" and "she has to change". Shadow is right - what ARE you doing to change?

[Helen]

Russell,

I think you are still confused about what you want from Sue. You said in your most recent post (post 84) that you don't want Sue to change. Yet in post 81, you said you did want her to change. You mentioned something about the fact that she will not communicate with you when an issue pops up but retreats to 'her ivory tower'. You also talked about giving her some self-help books that she has not looked at.

A few thoughts occurred to me. I don't want you to feel like we are all raining down crap on you but in terms of the communication, do you think that Sue walks away because you keep putting her through the same thing as you are putting her through here? I would. I have to say, Sue has been very clear in her communications on the forum. She hasn't retreated at all. What she keeps saying is you won't let things rest and move on. You, on the other hand, have not been clear at all. It has taken a long time to get to the crux of your issue - the real crux - but you also say that you want things, then you don't want them (so you confuse) and you keep going back to problems, even though you agree (as in the case of the your bed/your house issue) that they really aren't the issue at all. Or even once you have said the issue has been resolved! So you go around in circles. Russell, there is no point doing this. This is what Sue is saying to you. This is what we have all been saying to you. Sue walks away because she refuses to go around in circles with you. And who can blame her?

Can you tell me how you would communicate with someone who talks about the same thing, over and over? Someone who says yes, they want something then no, they don't want it? Someone who digs up old and mouldy hurts - things that should have been let go years ago - over and over... Wouldn't you find it an incredibly frustrating experience trying to deal with someone like that? Again, I would and I would probably do what Sue does and walk away.

Russell, that frustrating person is you. You cannot let things go. You cannot be reasoned with. That much is clear from the numerous posts that cover the same ground on this forum. Sue is fed up. That's why she won't talk to you beyond a certain point when there is a problem. You might want to rake and re-rake over these things until the cows come home (and you have said you can talk for hours) but she doesn't and shouldn't have to. One raking over is enough for most people and then they want to move onto a resolution. This is the sort of person Sue sounds like and this is what she has been saying. You have been chewing this issue over for weeks - months - since last September, apparently. And still you haven't got anywhere! And you seem to want Sue to join you in the continued raking over. To what end?

Maybe Sue doesn't bother with the self-help books because they haven't exactly helped you - have they? Again the question has to be what are YOU going to do to end this nonsense and move things forward? I ask you because it is clear that Sue is prepared to compromise. She has been saying this repeatedly. I agree with other posters - I don't think she needs to change. She is not going to turn into this person who wastes time jawing over problems, over and over again. If this is the change you want, it isn't going to happen. She has done what she could about the PMT. So that is no longer a problem. Forget the old resentment. You need to be more specific. What do you want Sue to change NOW and what are YOU prepared to change in order to move forward?


Helen

[Murray]

tks all. I'm taking some time out to think about things. I really don't know how to reply to your notes to me at the mo. Not a cop out, I just don't know what to say. I understand the them from you all, I'll try and make sense of it.

Sue and I are talking and I'm due to go back to the UK this weekend, we'll see.

Best wishes,
Russell