Husband doesn't want sex [Archive] - 2-in-2-1 Discussion Forums

Joanna

3rd December 2005, 09:58 AM

Dear ChristianWife

Thank-you for your comments, to which I would like to reply. First, though, I would like to re-cap on some of the words featured in standard marriage vows:-

to love, cherish, to have and to hold, for better or worse, till death do us part

Please note the absence of phrases such as "as long as I feel like it" or "as long as you still fit into a size 10". Also refer to 1 Corinthians 7 v1-5.

OK then - I agree that its better to be sweet and affetionate rather than constantly demanding. But when months slip into years, this gets increasingly difficult. Its about give and take, but when one partner is not giving, then reservoirs begin to run dry. And yes, I do pray to God to fill them back up again, and He does, but I am only human. And yes again, I do try and initiate sex and intimacy, but again the walls come up, and a stony silence ensues.

It would perhaps appear that it would be better and easier to not say or do anything in the hope that "his sexual drive may just come back on his own". But I do not see any hope of this happening. And if I look back in 10 years time, and see that the only reason that we have not had another baby is that we have not resolved this situation, then I am going to feel very bitter and resentful, and this will threaten the health and even existance of our marriage.

I think that the level of hurt and rejection experienced by a woman in a situation like this is difficult to understand by someone who has not been there. I feel very hurt and damaged, and even if my husband were to say to me tonight, with a twinkle in his eye, "lets have an early night, sweetheart", I would still have alot of healing to do. I feel that he has taken the gift of my sexuality, which I gave to him alone on our wedding night, and has looked at it, considered it rubbish and tossed it aside. This may or may not be the case, but's how I feel. And I would like him to realise and acknowledge that his actions (or lack of them) have had an impact on me and have hurt me, regardless of whether that was his intention.

I have a great deal more to say to say on this, but I think thats enough for now. Once you start, its difficult to stop! I appreciate any comments, but please dont assume this is a superficial or easy to resolve problem.

J

gsquash

8th December 2005, 05:28 PM

Do you know very much about your husband's past i.e before you were married, childhood etc?? I think that experiences that we have been through before marriage can massively effect how we are in marriage. Also think about your past experiences aswell. My husband and I are currently going through some really deep stuff that goes right back and the strange thing is that I had made some inner vows in my teens towards men - It's quite hard to explain but the inner vows that I had made were preventing my marriage from being whole. if you've heard of John and Carol Arnott then look at some of their teaching on this stuff it's fantastic. Are you and your husband part of a church??

Keep praying, God's heart is for your marriage to be whole - it may take some work and time - pray that God will begin to soften your husbands heart so you can open up lines of communication.

LOVE
gemma

Joanna

9th December 2005, 09:30 AM

Gemma

Thank-you for your encouragement. Yes, we are part of a great church, and I am part of a really supportive ladies group, where I have been able to share discreetly with wise and understanding ladies. Because of my H's lack of communication on this subject, I don't know, but I doubt, whether he has shared with anyone - but I am praying that he will.

I have considered the inner vow issue, especially as my husband once said something to make me think along these lines, and yopur post was a confirmation of this. I will certainly look up John and Carol Arnott. I would ideally love for us both to attend counselling, but I think that he is a long way from agreeing to this.

Thank-you again,

Joanna

1aokgal

26th April 2007, 07:09 AM

Dear Joanna.......

I appreciate your posting concerning feelings you have about your marriage and the abstinence of any sexual relationship with your husband.
I share this problem as well for many years pattern..13 years..with the man I married... 26 years ago..and dearly love today.
There is such grief to lose the part of life that should be a woman's right to know love and physical intimacy within marriage. There are no other women or explanations from him. He won't discuss the matter. Basically, to him there is no problem.

While I am told daily that I am loved by a man who does things for my comfort. I can feel little emotional connection sometimes and wish I could talk with him enough to uncover the problems. No, he was never abused or such. He just puts too much into his work life and not enough to our life at times. I remember an annniversary day cruise ten years ago. All couples aboard had anniversary and were excited to share a happy day. Photos were taken and you can see in my face the knowledge that for me it was an empty show.

My happiness is through my paintings, children, music and a close friend who knows the truth. I can at least speak of this and have some emotional support.

This assexualism is often seen as if the woman has somehow failed. She is judged not exciting enough or sexual enough or attractive. I remember my mother said she never had "that problem" in her marriage. I felt punished again to be so judged.

This problem is far more common than is thought. The advice columns continue to exploit women as one who is frigid or not interested in the sexual part of marriage. I say there are many men who act pretty normal and have low libido and no interest. I know this too well. I have been very fortunate to keep in my heart a man I repect who is decent and works hard for my welfare. It is a great shame he does not wake up to the loss of the years without intimacy.

Do not let the years slip by without trying every tool for change from counselling to medical evaluation. We tried some of this but I think he is happy with things as they stand. We survive alright as long as I do not discuss the problem. It helps a little to post here and hear others and how they cope. I try to produce beautiful paintings and feel happy when I do them.

mermaid

29th September 2007, 04:47 AM

Dear Altered Heart, thank you for sharing that you've had the same sex-less problem for 27 years; I have too, for over 26 years and I can't go on another year! I am an enforced celibate and it's dreadfully wrong on the part of our husbands to score the verses out that commands them to be our lovers and to love us wholeheartedly; they have no excuse! I also feel ugly and rejected and used to climb the walls with frustration, now I don't like my husband, and I don't think he is a husband to me at all. I feel cheated and I feel that I only have a bit of a legal document, but not an actual marriage. These things should NOT be. We don't have to take it.
:(

mermaid

29th September 2007, 04:56 AM

Hi Joanna, good for you! I agree with you that what right does our husbands have to switch off and disregard their vows! I feel I've been cheated on with nobody; I've been denied love and sex for two and a half decades now and lately I've decided to get out of the marriage when I can, before it's too late for me to ever experience love with a man who deserves my love; there is NO EXCUSE whatsoever; they can go and hide in their cave, there are plenty more men out there. I'm not advocating adultery at all; I am like you and was a virgin on my wedding night and my husband decided we'd sleep in separate rooms and had all kinds of high-falluting spiritual ideas of why we should do this, but it's balderdash.
I also felt my husband took my precious treasure, my gift of my love and sexuality to him, and decided it's not worth a thing, it's dirty and shameful for me to have any actual desires of my own, after all am I not there to serve him and not show any feelings of my own? I want a real man who is capable of love and surely God understands this? He made us as sexual beings, he made us capable of intense pleasure and not having that is like starving as it's one of two basic human desires, that of eating and that of having sex.
We have to get real, these, 'men' don't deserve our love; what did they get married for? There are two things that hold a marriage together, love and lust, without both, it fails.
God alone cannot hold a marriage together, it takes the two people. That's why so many Christians are getting divorced, they are leaving too much up to God and banking on the fact that we don't want to get divorced like the people do who don't believe in God, we are being taken for granted, utterly.
I'll write more later.

mermaid

29th September 2007, 05:06 AM

Dear 1aokgal, oh I just feel we have been conned into thinking it's ok and to get fulfilment out of something else, like our paintings (I'm an artist too); for years I felt ashamed that I had sexual feelings and wanted my husband who didn't want me in the slightest. I tried to say it doen't matter as I felt it was the noble thing to do, now I realise how stupid I was; it's just not right and we should not put up with it; lots of men are good providers and hard workers, but they are worth nothing for their cruelty of forcing celibacy on a woman. They should have let us know they were literally going to, 'pull out' on the marriage contract as that is actually what they have done, cheated us.
Marriage to me is the act of love-making; Isaac brought Rebecca into his mother's tent and he became his wife, it was the physical and spiritual union which made them man and wife in God's eyes; all I am left with is a legal document saying I went through a marriage ceremony, but I don't feel I've ever really been married. I never see my, 'husband', he is always outside doing his own things in his workshops and ignores and neglects me, it's not on. I don't think they deserve our protection, they have been heels and they know it.
If it was the other way around, they'd feel free to stray, wouldn't they? They would not let their needs be denied for very long.
I feel we are too easy to say God will provide our every need, but that is one thing God cannot do for us and provided us with a husband to do that and if he doesn't, then he has no right to call himself a husband. Showing love through little jobs or providing is not being a husband; only a husband can do to us what no other man should ever do, we can get workmen in to fix things, we can get gardeners to come and do our lawns, etc, but it's the husband's prime duty, to make love to us. Nothing else is more important as it's his unique work towards us.

cheleanne

19th October 2007, 02:38 PM

Hi Joanna,

You are not alone... my husband is the same as yours and yes, it is a very frustrating and depressing thing. I have been with my husband for 7 years and we have maybe had sex - MAYBE 20 times. The reason I say 'sex' and not making love is because it's a roll on, roll off, go to sleep thing. Ever heard the saying 'Wham! Bam! Thank-you M'am!'? My husband invented that saying as far as I'm concerned.

I have tried to talk to him about it also - but I get no response. I have begged him to see a doctor to rule out any medical issues, but he won't go. He is just not interested. I feel very lonely, unloved, unwanted, and unattractive, even though I've been told by other men that I am beautiful, and sexy.

I have also said to my husband that 'people who don't get their needs fulfilled at home, do look elsewhere!'..... no response. It's almost like he WANTS me to go elsewhere for attention, but when a friend of ours started PAYING attention to me in a flirty way, he got mad. So I guess I'm really confused - as you are....

I don't understand why this has to happen. Premarital sex is taboo - so, if it's wrong to have sex BEFORE you get married, isn't it natural to EXPECT SEX on a regular basis AFTER you get married??? I would think so , but my husband has other ideas. If you ever figure it out, please, please, let me know.......

Good luck to you - and all of us living in this type of relationship......

Raymond

23rd October 2007, 08:43 PM

1aokgal

23rd October 2007, 10:15 PM

Raymond

24th October 2007, 09:04 PM

It took a lot of courage for you to say that OKGal. I know it wasn't easy for you. I wouldn't say it is the reason for every sexless marriage, but I suspect it is in the background of a lot of cases.

If that is the case he will be feeding it with a lot of fantasy in his head (assuming he doesn't use pornography) energised by seducing spirits. It is not a purely physical thing. Sex is always spiritual and always affects our spirits for good or evil. Why else would God make such strict laws about it. He had this habit long before he met you and seems to prefer it than being free.

I know that he is a nice and considerate man in other respects, but that doesn't solve the basic problem. The only hope I see is for him to get right with God about it (This is the christian part of the site) and then avail himself of the help which can only be found in Christ.

Raymond

1aokgal

25th October 2007, 07:54 AM

He is in denial. He believes in nothing more than himself. read latest posting..we had a situation. Yes, I know he had an earlier relationship that ended over a confrontation about sex. He swears his love for me. Yes, I think he cares but he has no concept anymore of a healthy marriage.

I post too often. I must take a vacation from posting and go to the gym. Hope you are well.
You are a nice man and add a lot of common sense here.

Raymond

25th October 2007, 08:15 AM

Have a break OKGal. I did for quite a few weeks if you noticed. Some things you have to get away from and let settle before you see clearly again.

Raymond

Don62

10th November 2007, 05:08 AM

Raymond....

I could say almost with a certainty you are right on with this conclusion about these sexless marriages. These men are getting their needs met...alone. When and where the MB becomes everything who can say. It is simple, convenient and without emotional committment.

I never met a man in my life except the one I married with this compulsion.
I wouldn't necessarily blame the sin of a spouse refusing sex on masturbation or he or she "having their needs met alone."

It may be a mental or spiritual problem.

My wife of 11 years has been refusing me regularly the last 5 or so, with only "occaisional" lovemaking. Boy does that hurt.

I'm certainly not "getting my needs met" anywhere else, though of course temptations arise.

I have found this site to be of assistance in this area:

http://www.themarriagebed.com/boards/index.php

Register and then you can visit the Sexual Refusal section. That subforum isn't open to non registered viewers.

Best wishes to all of you experiencing this problem or abnormality or perversion.

Don62

12th November 2007, 02:40 AM

Just a long shot. I may be completely off the wall and hope I will not offend anyone, but sometimes it's not that they have lost their sexual drive rather that it is being diverted into masturbation, fantasy or even porn. These are solo things usually done in secret but can have a big affect on intimacy as it is really a mental adultery. Jost a long shot just in case.

Raymond
Raymond, respectfully, I highly doubt this is the case in most refusals.

There of course are some cases like that, as the husband spending inordinate hours late at night on the computer looking at naked women.

Of course I MB regularly, maybe more than I would like. What other option or outlet do I have?

I sleep next to my wife but aren't allowed to caress her or go any further, except for maye a couple times a year.

--

Read the TMB forum or even the Sexless Marriage forum. http://p079.ezboard.com/fsexlessmarriagefrm2

It seems some spouses don't take their marriage vows seriously, and have physically abandoned their mates.

Any time their mates (male or increasingly female) "beg" or try to "persuade" their spouses to participate in lovemaking, they're rejected.

It's like their spouses have closed off that part of their liife and now sex isn't anything important to them anymore.

They of course came to this decision on their own, never bothering to consult with their "partner" about the new relationship of being "mere roomates."

This isn't supposed to happen in marriage, and was something I never in my wildest dreams thought I would be experiencing 11 years later.

Interesting how those not afflicted with the sickness can easily jump to conclusions.

Raymond

12th November 2007, 06:34 PM

Don, you will note that I said sometimes this is the case and only when the man is refusing sex. Simply one avenue for a woman to check.

As you are the man and your wife is refusing you I very much doubt that that is her problem.

Your wife is not honouring her vows but could have problems from the past perhaps. You need to work through these things together apart from the sex. There are many cases of husbands who kept loving their wives to the point of sexually awakening their wives. I'm sure she feels deep down that she is failing you, but you do need expert christian counseling if she is willing and of course keep praying.

Raymond

1aokgal

14th November 2007, 03:35 AM

Raymond...
I believe you hit the nail on the head. Know or not know will change nothing. He operates on the fuel of two under the roof who co-exist well and chooses to tell me often in th early AM as he leaves the house..how much he loves me. It is in my half awake state so that is like a dream. The rest is just a nightmare and the calendar pages keep falling.
It is too late and too late to mend the damage done. It does not seem to matter as the days pass and I can't remember passion or the time there was love. It is dim memory.

Raymond

14th November 2007, 09:06 PM

You have been through a lot of suffering OKGal and yet there are a lot of bright patches in your life as well. In the end when all is said and done it's who we are that counts not necessarily what we do. You have to be the best person you can be in the circumstances and not go under with it, as some seem to be doing. I like the scripture that says All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose. I'm sure that includes your circumstances. You can only start from where you are. There are many other like you whom I see that you are a great comfort to on these threads. You all have created a kind of fellowship together. We can only change the things we can change and ask God for strength to live with the things we cannot change, although even these things are not impossible to Him.

God bless
Raymond

1aokgal

15th November 2007, 07:47 AM

Dear Raymond...

Thank you again for your sweet and caring nature on the threads. Just awhile ago my husband got a phone call from Germany. His father has taken a turn for the worse. He may have only a few days to live. His cancer was found a few weeks ago and chemo used but too late, it seems. I really knew this when I heard it.

Sad, my husband being the elder son.... with a job he can't leave without a replacement and thousands of miles too far between there and US. I told thim there is no shame that he can't be there with his dad. He will try to call him again in the morning. The rest of his family is there as brother and sister who live there.

I could only tell him that that there is a time for all seasons as the bible says." a time to live and a time to die." That if he can truly beleive our loved ones never leave us and always are there close by in Spirit. That the reward is there for his father for the good life he lived. It reminded me when you speak about my situation here what a good man I married and of strong character and ethical and decent.

He has been a blessing for me in many ways. Sometimes the problem in the marriage has crushed my spirit yet I don't want to reject the love he does give me. I respect him for caring for me in other ways. I know there are many men who hide the money they earn or spend it at the bar. My husband has always been giving and generous as well as he is always willing to help in the home from cooking to windows.

When I was in the hospital and really ill he came before 5AM, before work to sit with me in the dark of the room to reassure me and let me know he loved me. He sat late into the evening with me before he left to go home. He carried in things that would please me and told me childrens' bedtime stories as , "Jack and the Beanstalk" with impressive character voices. Sometimes I try to tell others here to look for the love and not let anger bar the door to a what relationship we have with the person we vowed to love.

Thanks for reminding me the walk of faith is not easy but there are many rewards.

1aokgal

15th November 2007, 08:26 AM

Dear Don62...

Welcome to the forum. Your posting is interesting to hear the male viewpoint.

Sorry for your unhappiness. Most of us who have a spouse who has chosen to live within themselves develop coping skills. We are happy in the other areas of our lives. The options available are to leave, find another to create a semi-world or live with the rejection. There are good days and bad days.

A bad day can start when you open your eyes and nothing has changed and you feel as though your purpose in life has been stolen. It is hard to live as a vegetable. I am still a woman who loves pretty clothes, shoes and perfume and checks the mirror. Men compliment me for the efforts I make to be attractive.

He compliments me as well but does not value me as a woman. If he did he would not risk losing me. He just knows I will be here. It takes a lot of effort to keep from becoming bitter. I did a lot of reading as it seems you have done. There is no one answer except a partner has become selfish.

Raymond

15th November 2007, 08:38 AM

Your husband seems a man of very good character OKGal but an enigma as well. Not the type to withold physical love from his wife. I wonder if he was brought up a very good Catholic and somehow got the idea that sex was dirty or selfish. I spent quite a few years in convents and it is easy to get that idea in that enviorment. A model pupil would have more difficulty I would think.

You are wise in seeing the glass half full instead of half empty and counting you blessings. That is a great strength. Who knows whether your love for your husband will heal him in that area in the end? I assume at the beginning that it wasn't the case? In cases where there was never any sex the marriage is said not to be consumated and legal seperation was possible without a divorce, but lets not go backwards as he very much loves you and you him.

If he is a very moral man you could appeal to him through the scriptures which are very clear on not defrauding each other of sex if you are married. I know you have given up but I never do I am afraid.

Keep smiling. enjoy what you do have.

Raymond

1aokgal

16th November 2007, 03:10 AM

Dear Raymond...

Thank you for your input. Yes, my husband is an enigma. I don't doubt his devotion to me but I wonder sometimes if he lives on the planet? I cannot fathom that he thinks he is a good husband. Through these years we had fiery discussions, arguments, and went the gamut of all things that should work to revitalize the dead part of the marriage. Or at least, I tried. It is no longer important to me to guess his dysfunction or rationale. That is his problem. Mine, is to survive.
I am not the quiet reserved type. I bought a boat when he was months overseas at his sea job there and pilot it quite well. I took Flamenco dancing a few year back and loved the clothing and dancing. There is the dramatic sensuality of the dance. I felt really alive and happy. My passion now is to make and wear Victorian clothing to special events. I will be dressed in a magnificent ballgown on Saturday for a formal Victorian dinner event . He will wear a frockcoat and top hat as he chose to join me in this fantasy land. Now I wish I was going alone. Somehow I don't want to sparkle for him anymore. So boring, I am NOT.

Then, there are times I cannot hold it together when I think that half the marriage has been in celibacy not of my choosing. His is the unilateral decision to have no sex in the marriage. I feel as a Pariah in society and a deceiver who is married...but is not married. Too many years alone inside my skin makes one feel like a freak of nature. There is a perceived deformity in me which is enormous ..even though it cannot be seen from the outside. It has scarred me on the inside. It is hard for me to be in gatherings of people.
In December, this will be the 14th year of this hell. I think he even mentioned to me in a discussion how ten years ago I jogged regular, really toned and was so svelte that men were following me around. Yes, that was true. If he was so bothered by that why didn't he alter the scenario?
I still love beautiful clothes, heels and my perfumes. I am still woman..I think.

I told him the other day that my best friend and her husband go on "date night" Wednesday as dinner, dancing and sex after as part of their 30 year marriage. My friend is horrified at the information I shared with her awhile after we met. I reinforced the sexual part of that story of their night to him. Says he.."Well we should do that. " I did not reply as was on the tip of my tongue," I would believe that when the sky starts to fall." I have heard all the mouth service before..for years. "I am leaving for work overseas for 6 months, when I get back I will go see a doctor, get counselling, have sex...yada, yada, yada.
The truth is the damage to my self esteem is so severe I think I would curl up in a corner at the first movement toward me. We kiss on the cheek, on the mouth like a buddy when you leave ..the peck on the mouth. I think I am biding time to die sometime. Now that I do have a serious health problem the inner loneliness is worse. I hate to realize that the marriage will never change and I am beyond approach now as I might recoil.

I have thought to begin Samba lessons or dance classes again. He often works overnights and next year will be gone for perhaps 6 months. What do you think? Maybe I should just get out again, wear my pretty clothes and let him to his own devices.

Don62

16th November 2007, 02:44 PM

1aokgal, thanks for your support and kind words.
I was lashing out (more of venting) but not against the good people here on this board.
I'm as frustrated as you, unfortunately.

It's like she all the sudden, perhaps 5 years ago, decided sexual intimacy wasn't important to her anymore. So we have it maybe 2-3 times a year, much less than I would desire. I would prefer it 2-3 times a week, but would be happy with just weekly.

Other things in our relationship appear to be okay, though.

So it seems both sexes are gulity of this horrible sin.

Dear Don62...

Welcome to the forum. Your posting is interesting to hear the male viewpoint.

Sorry for your unhappiness. Most of us who have a spouse who has chosen to live within themselves develop coping skills. We are happy in the other areas of our lives. The options available are to leave, find another to create a semi-world or live with the rejection. There are good days and bad days.

A bad day can start when you open your eyes and nothing has changed and you feel as though your purpose in life has been stolen. It is hard to live as a vegetable. I am still a woman who loves pretty clothes, shoes and perfume and checks the mirror. Men compliment me for the efforts I make to be attractive.

He compliments me as well but does not value me as a woman. If he did he would not risk losing me. He just knows I will be here. It takes a lot of effort to keep from becoming bitter. I did a lot of reading as it seems you have done. There is no one answer except a partner has become selfish.

Raymond

16th November 2007, 06:44 PM

You sound all real woman to me OKGal. It does affect your self esteem because of human weakness but it is not the truth and you need to see it that way.

I will leave you two to talk things through.

Raymond

1aokgal

16th November 2007, 07:01 PM

Don62...

I would say for you to confront head on about the problem. The more time that goes, the less chance to change the pattern. Say you are willing to see a counselor together.

Years ago I made the appointment for a psychiatrist for both of us to go and we did that. Then he saw my H. alone for many sessions . I understand my H. talked about his work and never about the sexual demise in the marriage. I finally had enough when it seemed they bonded like good old boys and I was on the outside. I just told this counselor he was a dud. I should have selected a woman and maybe she would have confronted him. I chose the man as I thought my H. would be more comfortable. It struck me that only I had the emotional distress and my H. was fine with everything.

It is too late here. I no longer find him attractive in the sexual sense. That horse has been beaten to death. I just do the best I can in all other areas of living. People like us despair in silence for the most part.

Alice Alice

26th December 2007, 09:22 AM

i agree with Raymond its exactly whats happening to these ladies...and me too

veg92

11th February 2008, 07:50 AM

Hi everyone,

It's late but I wanted to say I can relate to your stories. I'm so disgusted with my marriage and our lack of physical intimacy. My husband does have low to no testosterone due to an injury he sustained in his senior year in high school. His parents neglected to get him medical attention (he had his own part in this too as he was too ashamed to go to a doctor) and thus his testacles atrophied over a period of 2 years when a simple medical procedure could have prevented this tragic loss! He has been on Androderm patches for years but they don't seem to deliver enough Vitamin T, as I call it, to his system. We've been maried for almost 16 years and have probably had sex less than 75 times. That might be a generous estimate. I have struggled with masturbation over the years, sometimes more than others, but I never commit mental adultery...my mind is always on my husband or on nothing in particular. We did not have sex before marriage but he seemed attracted to me. On our honeymoon, I was very wounded on our second or third night when he said we didn't have to have sex every night. I felt like a sex maniac. This was the beginning of many years of pain for me. I have felt more like the typical 'man' while he seems more like the typical frigid woman. I have allowed this to go one for too long and hope to again talk with my hubby about this soon and get some resolution. I have much more to say but need to get to bed. I hope some of the ladies who started posting here have found some positive solutions.

Raymond

11th February 2008, 01:27 PM

Your case is very different Veg if he has a physical injury, but if you say you've had sex approx 70 times, then something obviously happened in spite of the injury. You probably know a lot more about this that I do, but I thought the testacles were to do with conveying sperm rather than producing enjoyment. I don't know, is that true? I thought it started in the brain. That's why I don't watch porn as it would be mental adultery. The thing is men can get switched on to sex mentally before they do it physically. Do the testacles stop this? If he can get switched on mentally then there is hope as this can be cultured to serve both of you in your marriage.

Raymond

1aokgal

13th February 2008, 08:08 AM

My first husband was about 23 when he had testicular cancer and had one testicle removed. He had radiation treatments as well then.
Though he was left sterile , believe me, when I say he never had a problem with thinking about (erection) or performing sexually. We divorced years later over other problems. So There could be a problem in your situation with testosterone. There is a test for that.

My present husband has NO interest in sex for years and years. No, he has never had a T test and evidently dosen't care to go that route. He has all equipment he was born with. Who knows? Then there is the fact that sex actually starts between the ears. One has the desire and even men who are handicapped find ways to have sex with their wives.
I have to add that he is a very good person and whatever is wrong it is not that he is a player or does not care for me. He seems very devoted to me except in the area where it most counts as the love between a man and woman.

Susan Strict

2nd April 2008, 04:46 PM

1aokgal,

My husband had the same problem some years ago and the problem has now gone completely. He's as active as I could possibly wish.

I don't know what you have tried and not tried, and I don't want to offend anyone here by going into too many details, but a few thoughts for you:

1. Remember that "sex" between partners in a true relationship is lovemaking. It's an expression of your love and your desire to please each other physically as much as to please yourself. To have him please you, may be as important to him as his own pleasure. I can't put that any more clearly without being graphic about it.

2. You're never too old to flirt (with him, NOT anyone else!), and a relationship is never too old for something a little unusual, different or out of the ordinary. Can you talk to him about intimate matters? Many of us find it very difficult. Somewhere inside him is probably something that will excite the urge - and as long as it's not too bizarre for you to want to share with him then all you have to do is uncover it and do it. A bit of "reverse psychology" works wonders if you're trying to find out what's in his head - something like "I can't imagine people really wanting to do that" (he'll inevitably agree with you that he can't imagine anyone "wanting to do it" - but watch his expression/body-language closely, and IF it's right and IF you're happy with it too, then "I wonder what it feels like..." is a really useful phrase.) There's very little, in my opinion, that is "wrong" for a husband and wife to do together (if they both want to) in private, and the excitement of something new and different may be all that's needed.

3. Don't be afraid to take the lead. I don't mean leap on top of him unexpectedly (not unless you really want to!!), but if you always wait for him to make the first move then you might never get anywhere.

Good luck.

Alice Alice

2nd April 2008, 07:57 PM

Dear Susan Strict
this sounds very good, wow you brought your husband back from the world he was living in, this is hopeful.

i need to get a book ...the language of love and use the right techniques on my husband i have tried the "rub his arm look into his eyes and tiptoe for a kiss and have been denied. (very painful being rejected, i take it very badly)

Maybe i pick the wrong times? or i get too mushy? i don't know.

i will be receiving help on my codependency problem that i believe i have.

Wow this is an old thread that i lost

Raymond

3rd April 2008, 01:07 PM

I know what Susan is talking about. Some of us are complex creatures and she may just be on the right track. We are all sexual beings deep down and so long as the reason is not that the sexual drive is being perverted into something else there is hope. Alas though I feel that a lot of men are happier on a porn site or something instead of living in the reality of their own sexual relationship with their loved one. But if this isn't the problem then it is worth investigating and finding out the key to switching them on.

Raymond

Raymond

3rd April 2008, 06:53 PM

Not to take the romance out of it sex is a duty as well. I was just reading the following verses from the bible 1 Cor 7:3-5b new Living Translation.

The husband should not deprive his wife of sexual intimacy, which is her right as a married woman. Nor should the wife deprive her husband. The wife gives authority over her body to her husband and the husband also gives authority over his body to the wife. So do not deprive each other of sexual relations.

I think a lot of this is to do with the mind as well. All our sexual imagination should be towards our spouses. If sex starts in the brain indulging in porn etc. it will rob us and rob our spouses of the imagination we reserve for them. If I am watching porn etc., that is nothing to do with my wife. Although I love my wife I need the discipline as well to keep myself pure for her and not pollute myself watching others outside of our relationship indulging in fantasy sex just to tittilate me. I am capable of being tittilated but the cost is to my sexual relations with my wife. You know deep down that you have been unfaithful even if it's only fantasy because your body is responding sexually. I try not to watch porn but I know enough about my body to know what I am talking about.

I read a story about a couple where the husband frequently masturbated on his own. During this time he would get fantasy images coming into his mind. One day an image of a blonde girl about 8 years old came into his mind and he imagined doing all sorts of things to her. After that he went downstairs and amazingly the very girl in the fantasy was there and within a short time he was abusing her. She had been left for him and his wife to babysit for a friend. The police were called in and he pleaded that he was not a paedophile. This is a true story and illustrates another force, perhaps demonic, which operates when one get into solo masturbation apart from the wife. The marriage was sexless at the time but there was no shortage of sex drive in the fantasy world he had created. Fortunately this person was able to get help in a christian centre but it is a warning of what one can get into indulging in any kind of sex outside of marriage. Sorry to shock anyone, but this actually happened and similar things are probably repeating themselves with thousands in the fantasy realms.

Raymond

Alice Alice

3rd April 2008, 07:08 PM

This is scary and i believe spirits can manipulate our minds when we are in a fantasy state of sexual feelings...i worry about my husbands mental state at times like this when i think how long he can go on like this...he looks at porn all the time
he even has said he can't stop.

Raymond

3rd April 2008, 08:52 PM

Hi Alice it is scary. I can tell you much worse things but I won't. I have no doubt that there are unseen forces at work that can only be combatted through faith. The scripture says we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against pricipalities powers etc. then goes on to list these unseen forces. In John's letter he says beloved believe not every spirit but try the spirits whether they are of God.

I hope I haven't frightened you Alice. It's only when you receive the Holy Spirit that you become aware of these things. That's why it is so important to receive Christ and the Holy Spirit which He can send.

Your husband seems bound by these things. A stronghold has been built up if he says he cannot stop. It is not a game which one may think when starting out. He would have given ground to these things and it cannot be reversed that easily once one is addicted. He has to really want release and be prepared to put it behind him. I would say that he would need special deliverance from it by spirit filled christians but that is just my opinion.

All you can do is pray that he sees this. The power behind it is very strong but it is not of God. Someone sent me an email yesterday attached to a web site and there was a film about the dangers of porn and how it was wrecking marriages. To get the message type this lot. It should take you straight to it. Hopefully you can show your husband. http://player26.narrowstep.tv/nsp.aspx?player=Premier2&void=15894 You have to wait a minute for it to set up and then it plays.

God bless

Raymond

Susan Strict

3rd April 2008, 10:52 PM

Porn is always difficult - because like many things it can be addictive, as clearly it is in your husband's case. I don't actually believe it is always necessarily bad in itself (but, as with anything like this, there are degrees of what is acceptable and what isn't) and where we believe the line should be drawn varies from person to person. Because sexuality is one of the strongest forces within most of us, anything that addresses and awakens that force has potential dangers. I don't think it's a case of "spirits manipulating our minds" - it's simply that our minds have very deep urges that can latch onto something that stimulates them and then sometimes have great difficulty in letting go.

Alice, serious situations need drastic measures: have you ever looked at the porn that he is so addicted to?. Don't answer that here - these are questions you should ask yourself. Is it so extreme it simply repels you completely? Or is it fantasy stuff that instead of being between the porn and your husband could just as easily be between you and your husband?
Do you understand what I am saying? If you want to break the hold it seems to have on him then maybe, just maybe, you might start by looking at it with him and channelling his arousal towards you. I'm not suggesting that you should find the porn of any interest yourself; I'm suggesting that you should find his excitement of interest to yourself, and then use that to draw him away from it and to you.
Many couples look at porn together, because the fantasy of porn can enhance the lovemaking. I'm not at all sure whether I would recommend it, because undoubtedly there are dangers and I'm sure it's not right for everyone. In any case that's not what you're after. You want to draw him away from it, and to do that I think you may have to go into areas that will probably make you feel uncomfortable. The more you understand his desires, the more you should be able to be the focus of them.

Errm... can I put it bluntly? Find the opportunity to show him that you are just so much better than his own right hand can ever be. From what you've said, that opportunity may only occur when he's looking at porn. You have to be there, somehow.

Don't rush. Think about what I've said carefully. It may not be as difficult or as frightening as it first sounds even though to start it moving in the right direction may take you into areas that make you feel uncomfortable.

Alice Alice

3rd April 2008, 11:39 PM

Porn is wrong
i was 9 years old when a group of us school kids were walking along an ally a short cut from school when we saw porn magazines that had been thrown out and some kids were looking at it laughing and i looked over someones shoulder and looked too.
It brought out such a gross feeling i didn't want any part of it.

The next time i saw porn i was 23 at my cousins house i couldn't believe how stupid it was not the sex but the acting and as for the sex i did get aroused but i felt cheated (?)

the next time after that was a few years later when i got my computer a friend (male) who helped me put my computer together stopped by a sight.

after that my husband father of my son has been looking at porn it seems since he was 14 or so
i have looked at almost all the porn he has and have asked if i can see with him ,,,he won't have it. i have been very open minded to the idea in order to bring him back to our reality he likes it too much on his own.

i have masturbated i have looked at porn (not at the same time) i have learned its not for me and i am not a prude when it comes to sex i expect when my husband is looking into my eyes and when i look into his that he and i are united in the experience...he can't do this because his porn images are floating in his mind.
He isn't an evil person he is just a careless man who can't see the value of lovemaking.

but i believe in spirits i don't walk around thinking about it like a frighten person...i have brought Jesus into my heart and he will always stay there because i will never close the door on him...i have been saved from all the negative feelings that have been inflicted upon me.

I really appreciate your input Susan

Raymond

4th April 2008, 08:20 AM

Alice a mental adultery is taking place when a man watches porn believe me. A man will tell you what switches him on if you ask him. I have told my wife what switches me on in addition to the normal IC. One really doesn't need to watch his porn. It does destroy. The images will stay in the mind and one will see women as objects. Sex is part of relationship between a man and a woman. Porn opens you up to myriads of other naked women and men that will be in your mind. Sex is only to share with your spouse. A man is capable of sharing his sex drive with fantasy images. It is a robbery of God's plan for marriage which is where it really should be happening. There are plenty of places to discuss sex without watching porn which is simply designed to tittilate at the expense of relationship. People are making millions on this stuff. I am very glad that you already see that.

Raymond

Susan Strict

4th April 2008, 01:56 PM

I respect your views, of course, but I do feel there may be something you are missing.

Read the Song of Solomon (also called the Song of Songs), and feel the power of the celebration of sexuality in it - even the watered-down badly translated version in most modern translations. The original Hebrew is, without any shadow of a doubt, "pornographic" writing that was calculated to sexually excite the reader. I can't produce the evidence for it, but I'm sure I also remember reading that many of the older scripts from which modern translations of the Song of Solomon are taken were also illustrated with erotic drawings.

And it's beautiful.

Now, contrast that with the equally pornographic but very different writing in Ezekiel 23 and the events described in it. Does it have to go on and on like that? Of course it doesn't. It could say what it needs to say with far less of the stuff like "she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys". It's porn, and quite deliberately so, and it drives home so forcefully the difference between good sexuality and bad sexuality. It's not beautiful at all.

To enjoy something beautiful, something that "titillates" like the Song of Solomon cannot, in my mind, ever be bad unless we allow ourselves to become addicted to such material. The addiction is bad, not the material - in exactly the same way that most of us may enjoy a glass of wine without that becoming an addiction and in the knowledge that the alcohol we consume can be an evil if we allow it to be.

Anyway, that's me done on this subject. I think I'm rather getting off the main topic of this thread anyway.

Raymond

4th April 2008, 06:49 PM

Susan, sex was made by God and it's true we were meant to thoroughly enjoy it within the bounds of marriage. Man perverts it by taking it out of relationship. Pornography is like sex outside relationship. the Song of Solomon is a beautiful piece that shows God is not against sex. I think you will find that there is no evidence at all about any drawings accompanying it. These things have been thoroughly researched for centuries. It shows that sex is good, but I don't think it's written in such a way that tittilates. The most it says is breasts. (It's also a picture of Christ and the Church if you understand the prophetic message). Theres no doubt that a man should be intoxicated with his wife. Thats even a command in Proverbs 5.19. Porn is mostly about sex with anyone anywhere married or not graphically described. Nothing like the Song of Solomon in my view. You cannot really compare it to porn. The only common denominator is sex.

The passage you mentioned in Ezekiel 23 refers to two women who played the harlot. It is a picture of disgust that they had forsaken their husbands and uncovered their nakedness to various lovers. It is a visual aid to talk about Jerusalem and Samaria who had forsaken the true God and played the spiritual harlot in going after other so called Gods in other nations and were coming under judgment. I don't see how you can justify pornography out of that. It was some of these other nations in fact that revelled in open sex in their temples with statues of massive penises, temple prostitutes etc.

The bible can be quite blunt in sexual things but that doesn't justify porn. There is a massive difference you must admit. Sex can be spoken of in a helpful way when it needs to be, but to speak of it for the sake of it in order to tittilate and sell books is an entirely different ball game. That has a completely different spirit on it. Anyone of any discernment knows that. Wives have a better grasp of this than most men and instinctively know the dangers, although men know they are right deep down. If you read some of these old threads you will see the place pornography had in ruining a lot of the marriages. Divorces through pornography are on about 15% at the moment from about 1% ten years ago, so it is a massive problem.

Jesus said that if a man looks on a woman to lust after her he has already committed adultery/fornication with her in his heart. This must be happening in pornography over and over. I always think it is a kind of mental adultery and my observation is that it is having the same effect as adultery. Pornography is a robber rather than an enabler. It's almost like it has come to steal and destroy. Did you know that porn stars have way the highest suicide rates of any profession? It is not something that God can bless. Somemething else is behind it and it isn't God.

Sex is a strong urge in most of us but the fire needs to be lit in the hearth (marriage) not in the middle of the floor where it will burn the house down.

Raymond

Alice Alice

5th April 2008, 07:16 AM

Hello Raymond and Susan

Raymond i saw the link you sent all i can say is thank you!!!!!
i will have my husband sitting here tomorrow and watching it with him
he will not get out of watching this ...its medicine for his brain

Susan i agree king Solomon was involved with sex through out his ruling i believe he had the most wives of any king even the old testament standards.
God wanted his chosen men to have more then one wife because he wanted to populate the earth with good bloodlines.
the old testament is honorable but i really believe Jesus came to earth to set a lot of things strait about how we are to treat one another then died for our sins.
Solomon had a lot of wives from all over the world and these wives didn't all believe in his God and Solomon got a little slack with god because of the company he kept ie wives...he even went to see a fortune teller or something like that after God had reassured him about something he was worried about.

I'm not taking away the value of the Bible or Solomon by saying this i'm just saying if you read the bible it has a lot of repeated stories told differently by each writer but the theme is always the same and God words evolves so we modern people can understand and i believe Jesus to be the one who has upgraded the bible because God knew it needed it.
That's what makes us Christine not Jewish or muslims.

Sex is sacred and when sex is sold that is porn
i can video tape myself with my husband having sex and that would not be porn,,,mind you i don't think its necessary personally, but there is nothing wrong with it.

Did Jesus charge people for his holly acts of love?

i don't want you to feel bad about anything i say i really like your take on how you brought your husband back from a sexless marriage but i think you still need to fine tune some of your ideas

Raymond

5th April 2008, 08:27 AM

Alice I totally agree with everything you say. You do not realise how honourable you have been. I will tell you one day.

Yes Jesus made a new covenant which we are under as christians. A love covenant purchased for us through his death. You say it so beautifully.

I really pray that your husband sees his error and that his eyes may be opened to the truth. In the meantime you need to build yourself up. I hope you are getting good fellowship with other christians. We are not meant to live in isolation from each other although of course we respect each others privacy.

God bless

Raymond

Alice Alice

5th April 2008, 10:21 AM

thank you i believe Christ will show him the way..i just need to

Raymond

5th April 2008, 04:03 PM

I'll finish for you? Need to be who you are in Christ. Your husband will be changed by your life not by your words. I am praying for him. You are very brave to hang on in there. Most women would have left by now. Do you have any children Alice? How old are they?

Raymond

Alice Alice

5th April 2008, 11:59 PM

My hubby saw the news clip ...all of it.
now i wait to see what i can fish out of him.
i need to give him time to figure out what he learned...if he in fact learned anything, thats what i'm worried about.

Thanx again...i need to find a church i just moved to a new neighbourhood 4 hours from my old one...he said he wants to go to a pentecostal church or a Seventh-day Adventist

ps i forgot to answer ur question...we have a 22month baby

Raymond

6th April 2008, 06:25 AM

It's an amazing feat for you that he actually read it Alice. That is good. You must leave it with God now though. If he gets wind that you are manipulating it could have a reverse affect. He must know it is wrong deep down.

It is interesting that he wants to find a church. I know a little about an Adventist church. The ones over here are a bit odd and legalistic and seem to be against the Holy Spirit. I would recommend the Pentecostal church every time, although I would imagine there are good ones and not so good ones. The main thing is that they lift up Jesus and are open to the Holy Spirit. If that is there you cannot go far wrong. There will be others like you who are trying to follow Christ. Part of growing as a christian is relationship to other members of the body. It wasn't meant to be lived in isolation although of course you have your own space like all of us which I find important.

I'm going to pray right now that God sets your husband free if he wants it and that you find a church together. That will be a great strength for you both if it happens.

Raymond

Alice Alice

6th April 2008, 06:47 AM

you are such a sweet heart!!!
thanx!!

Raymond

6th April 2008, 09:40 PM

Hi Alice. I was just listening to Joyce Meyer on computer and thought of you. On the second half of her message she talks about porn. Never done it before as far as I know. If you fancy listening You can get her on http://www.joycemeyer.org/. Then press todays podcasts. Then pick April 4th - download podcast - save to taget. It will then download to your worktop. When it's done you can then play it.

I said you were very brave because you resisted ss. she runs a p site. You kept your principals. Well done.

Raymond

Alice Alice

7th April 2008, 12:36 AM

Hi Raymond
thanks for the link, i learned about Joyce back in 1999 she is great all her work is inspirational to me, i haven't seen that one.
She talked about a lot of things about procrastination and giving one selves good deeds to others, being humble, self persona (different then self image) curiosity of bad things IE porn

all good stuff loved listening to it all its been a while since i sat down to listen to her..thanx for rekindling the fire to listen to her now i will on the net.

Wow i had no idea ss was a p promoter in the true sense...where is she now? i wonder why she hasn't replied.

i showed my Husband what she wrote and he thought it was a man who was posing as a woman.

i'm not scared of people who try to redirect my focus of the true word of God.
i have been warned about these kind of people they have been said to be the worst kind i forget there is a name they are called...but i hope she will see and learn that her views have been warped, its never too late. Saint Paul for example.

thank you soo much for making my life kinder, sometimes i feel like banging my head against the wall of this porn problem that i am faced with.

Porn is the modern IMAGE along with some of the fashion industry.
God warned every one not to worship IMAGES made of wood, stone, i forget word for word but he covered all areas of this IMAGE problem....we should only pine for God and no one else a balanced way of looking at things i would say

Raymond

7th April 2008, 08:23 AM

I agree with what you are saying about porn. A chap called David Wilkerson who started Teen Challenge prophesied many years ago of this coming to the world. He referred to revelation where a flood came out of the dragons mouth to try and drown the woman who was bringing forth the man child. I take that as the church manifesting Christ and the flood being used to drown that. Just a thought.

My wife said she thought ss was a man as well. Strange?

Raymond

Alice Alice

7th April 2008, 09:05 PM

Revelations is so hard to fallow even after its explained i have received some understanding of it though.
The end of the "world" a lot of people will try to misguide each other

what if your wife and my Hubby are right?

i found out about a church today that has a congregation that is growing very quickly
in fact i was told there are a lot of churches of all different kinds in the new area we moved to
Its hard to explain the town we are in is part of several towns i think 9 and with in each town has like 4 churches ...so we will do some church hoping

Alice Alice

8th April 2008, 04:46 AM

Hi Raymond i found something

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n-wg8tWpP54&feature=related

Raymond

8th April 2008, 08:16 AM

Hi Alice. yes Rev is a difficult but one gets a sense of it sometimes.

It's great that you have a choice of churches to go to. I really pray you find the right one for you.

I don't know if your husband and my wife are right, but I have heard of this sort of thing before. Deception is going on in this area. The whole thing is a deception really when you think about it. That's one of his names actually.The great deceiver. Again in revelation.

I will look at vegetales later. I saw a bit but it kept pausing and I'm off to work in a minute, plus swimming and maybe housegroup at the end.

God bless
Raymond

Alice Alice

8th April 2008, 08:12 PM

hope you saw the link..i know its childish news but it hits home...i was with my baby searching for some entertainment our TV broke in the move and i found this.

thanks again for all your uplifting advice
gab

Raymond

9th April 2008, 08:17 AM

Hi Alice. I saw the first one where a lady is talking about opposition on NBC to them which is happening today, but God is opening up really good christian stuff on TV and other ways. I have put it on favourites and will play one to my wife. They look fun and a good way for children to pick up faith, needless to say adults as well. Thankyou.

Hope it's going alright with hubby. I am praying good things will happen re: church and p.

Raymond

lilybloom

4th June 2008, 06:18 AM

Oh my gosh I am so relieved I ran-across this forum. I am at my wit's end with my husband's confusing sex drive. We have been married for 21 years, after only a 6 month engagement. I was 21 when we married, he was 30 and had been married before (once). I was so young I didn't know what a healthy sexual relationship consisted of. At first I thought everything was normal...his infrequent sexual appetite was puzzling at times, but I just thought that I was the abnormal one for wanting it more than he. He also has a problem with sexual performance - this is very hard for me to say - but he isn't able to control his sexual climax. At most he lasts for 15-30 seconds. I'm sorry if this offends anyone...I just don't know how else to say it.

Again, I was so young and inexperienced that I thought that sexual intimacy once or twice a month with a duration of 30 seconds each time was normal. I never felt satisfied, but I thought it was me. After a while I educated myself and found that at our age we should have been intimate more often. I would initiate, he would either say he was tired, or it would end with PE. I encouraged him to get help. He was offended, and would go into denial about his problem. This went on for years.

Finally, about 10 years ago I told him that I couldn't go on like this. I was going crazy - I thought I was the reason he didn't want to have sex so I was exercising, dieting, even resorting to cosmetic surgery to make my body more appealing. I was clinically depressed with very low self-esteem, and so so angry. We went to marriage counseling, but he always seemed to want to blame me for his PE. This was so confusing as I've never been critical of him, I try to reassure him that he is a wonderful man, I take really good care of myself (I have been told by many people that I am very attractive), I wear the latest trends in clothing, I'm intelligent and formally educated with a master's degree....I try to be the best I can be. I also work to contribute to the household income.

So the counseling didn't work. I finally placed an ultimatum: Get help or I am going to move out. He went to a different counselor who told him he may have an anxiety disorder. He left the counselor's office and never returned. His ability for denial is legendary, obviously.

Well...I never did move out. I started a new job, and he all of the sudden insisted that we build a home in an affluent part of the city in which we live. He started buying me expensive jewelry...he's always been a good provider, and has always given me the sweetest gifts on my birthday, etc. and sometimes "just because" gifts. Amidst all of this change I didn't have the heart nor the energy to leave.

Now we are going on 22 years of marriage and nothing has changed. He complimented me on my looks earlier tonight. I replied with "well...maybe we can have some loving later if you would like that." He said "sure, I'd like that." Then he immediately got busy doing things around the house. That was six hours ago. So here I sit in my pink nightie in a chair three feet away from him in silence while he watches television. I am angry, frustrated, depressed, and so so lonely...any suggestions?

Raymond

4th June 2008, 01:06 PM

Hi Lilybloom. I trust you have read the posts on this thread and have some idea of what is discussed. We are not experts and only offer opinions. PE in the male can happen and some marriages do suffer from this but that obviously is not how God designed it so there is something wrong either physically but more likeley mentally. Usually the problem occurs because of over stimulation in the brain. One of the common reasons I believe is because of the use of pornography and these images in the mind. Another obvious one is solo MB which is also to do with images cultivated in the mind. Both of these are like a mental adultery. If it was any of these you probably would have known about that by now. It may just be a practical thing of learning about it more. There are many good books out these days. Personally I find that practice makes perfect. I hope you don't find that offensive but these things are legitimate in a marriage and you should be enjoying the best there is. The husband should be relaxed and taking his time and coming into it from a good marriage relationship which helps enormously I find.

I think it may just be a question of your husband being willing to buy good books on the subject, not those which just tittilate and make it worse. I think a good christian site is www.themarriagebed.com (http://www.themarriagebed.com) It is discussed in depth on some of those threads if you can ignore all the other stuff that people talk about. Some of that can be off putting but there are good threads in with it as well. The main thing is he must be open to making adjustments if necessary and not live in denial. That is probably the biggest stumbling block he has.

Raymond

looiuy

31st August 2008, 03:03 AM

Hello,

I just read all the posts and one major point which can work is involve the community, speak with the pastor's wife and have her tell her husband, or speak to another woman and have her ask her husband to intervene. This could be the real booster and if he gets mad.. hey you have been mad 2-20-30 years already... if he is selfish enough that he let's your pain hurt you just so he doesn't have to touch you (he has hands he could have touched your body with, a mouth to kiss your body and so on, massage etc) yet he does not do this, there are so many ways to please a woman without regular intercourse... he needs a course refresher, ladies let the men know what you want and if they don't listen find a male messenger to help, invite someone like the pastor to your home to speak to him while you are not there but when you know he will be there, just have him knock and say he is there to talk to him ... once you take this course of action don't wiggle out and don't be scared, search the Bible for verses on community involvement and consensus and group helping and remember:

this is NOT about a non-functioning male organ, it's about a husband who is not passionate about his wife, who is too selfish to think and use other ways to satisfy his wife and to even kiss her appropriately (i.e more than the kind of peck you would expect from him kissing mama's cheek), and if he huffs and puffs and kisses you or really looks like he's not enjoying it, then hey he needs to obey God not you and read what duties God gave him toward his wife, if he can work 8 hours a day and watch TV he needs to reach a point where he is passionately able to be passionate with you.

Raymond

31st August 2008, 09:10 AM

You are right Loolay. Proverbs tells us to be intoxicated with our wives in the bedroom. That's almost a command, but a lovely one. Surely if we are obedient to that God will heal anything untoward.

Raymond

mmh

22nd October 2009, 04:09 AM

Raymond

22nd October 2009, 08:38 AM

Whilst I do have a good sex life it seems very attractive to me that a wife would actually initiate. Wow! It's always me in my marriage but I have accepted that. I think it should generally be the man so obviously there is a problem there in your marriage.

In these cases I always check whether there are hidden sexual diversions in the husbands life such as porn or solo MB. I have discussed these things before, going around the houses, and in the end thats what it turned out to be. I know that is not always the case but it is worth checking here first as they are the obvious things.

Has he always been this way or is this a late development? Other things that can affect it are overwork and excessive drinking. These limit the sexual drive in men and probably women too. Whilst lack of excercise won't kill the sex drive excercise will increase it. I have found this in my own life.

Sex is very important as you realise and while it is not everything it is a vital part of marriage. Take that away and you will know it.

I think if you look into these obvious things before going deeper it will be a good start.

Raymond

Ageing Grace

22nd October 2009, 10:01 AM

Hello, MMH & Lilybloom.

Thank you for writing here. You both strike me as paragons of patience & understanding! However wise, and however loving you are, it must be a struggle to maintain your self-esteem when there is such a void in your lives where intimacy ought to be. My life is pretty lonely these days, but this loneliness is nothing like the agony I felt while married: lying next to my husband; unacknowledged; unwanted; undesired. I admire your tolerance.

Stating the obvious, lack of marital sex is a problem when the couple's desires don't match. There are many happy couples who hardly ever have sex, just as there are many who still can't keep their hands off each other in old age!

Mismatched sexuality isn't always about frequency. It could be about individual styles of loving; a fetish that only thrills one partner; differing imaginations; changing expectations or, of course, the effects of age and illness.

Everybody knows that a healthy marriage is a balancing act. In all areas of our lives together, we need to give and take as we balance our partner's wishes with our own. Power shifts subtly from one to the other and back again: this actually strengthens the bond between partners and enhances intimacy.

What seems to have happened, in both of your marriages, is that the power balance has become skewed. Your husbands have made unilateral decisions about marital sex - in parallel, intimacy has become eroded leaving you (and quite possibly your husbands, too) feeling lonely and out of place. Quite simply, both men are behaving selfishly in the matter of sex.

Premature ejaculation is an expression of selfishness, too. That's why we forgive it in boys, but not in older men who should have learned the art of give-and-take. As Raymond says: excessive self-gratification, with or without pornography, often leads men to focus on fantasy and a quick ejaculation, at the expense of true loving sex. Again, this is selfish and causes a loss of intimacy.
this is NOT about a non-functioning male organ, it's about a husband who is not passionate about his wife, who is too selfish to think and use other ways to satisfy his wife
The reasons why a person might become selfish like this are many and varied. There could be an unpleasant past experience, buried for decades, which slowly poisons the mind. It could be a 'passive-aggressive' response to a power imbalance elsewhere in your relationship. It could stem from a fear of ageing, of feeling less virile than before. It could be caused by an illness, such as depression or diabetes. Or by an outside source of gratification, in the flesh or in fantasy.

In terms of the effect it has on you, the spurned partner, underlying reasons barely matter. There is an imbalance. Your desires and feelings are being permanently scorned in favour of his. No wonder you're unhappy.

Since you both say your husbands are unwilling to explore problems within the marriage, or in themselves, I don't think you'll get very far by searching for clues as to why this is happening. When you focus your own energies on worrying about him (what he thinks; what he wants; what he feels; what he 'should') - you are essentially pushing the balance even further towards him. That will make you even more unhappy, and destroy even more of what intimacy remains.

If you can manage it, I think you both need to take a much wider view of your marriage - and a more pragmatic one.

Are your needs & feelings being respected in all other areas? How much give-and-take is there, really, between you?
While you're thinking about it, are there areas where you have dismissed his wishes?
Has the balance in your marriage become rigid, rather than flowing evenly between you as time passes and things change?

I would ask friends and family for input on all the above, though I realise not everyone would like to do that. You could always post in these forums about it!

Are you still in touch with your own sexuality - do you still know what you want married sex to be like?
Do you still feel 'like a woman' in your own right?

It's great that you're both confident in your attractiveness.
I know from bitter experience, however, that it's easy to become fixated on how attractive we seem to other people. Past the age of 21 or so, that's not a particularly healthy way to be thinking.

Feeling sexy is more about feeling alive than mere cosmetic appeal.

So what to do about it?

You're clearly not getting anywhere by discussing it with your husbands. So don't. Actions speak louder than words!

First, your own self-love.

Get creative: take up a new sport, return to your old passions, join an art class, learn a new language, go to comedy clubs, jazz clubs - whatever floats your boat.
Make it your priority to fill your own life with joy and enthusiasm! Get back in touch with old friends, or make new ones. Accept invitations to do charity work, join church groups, visit new places.
Surprise yourself. Fall back in love with your self!

Next, your relationship.

Where you found stagnation, rigidity and control (on either side), change it! Don't talk about it, just do it. If you always do the accounts, ask his advice on family finances. If he always drives, take the keys and the wheel. If you wish he'd empty the dishwasher, just ask him. Hand him one end of the sheet when you're folding laundry. Compromise on how the family eats; just shake the rules around a little.
Where you feel under-appreciated, invite praise! Women are terrible at this: we get peeved when we're not praised, yet we're always putting ourselves down. Who's to know we wanted applause? Say "I'm really pleased with this dish I cooked / wall I painted / achievement at work / amusing story / new haircut / etc, ISN'T IT GREAT?"
Where you want more everyday affection, try to stay open for it without chasing it. I realise you've been doing it for a lifetime, but could you have simply fallen into 'closed' habits? When you both walk with hands in pockets, the possibility of holding hands has gone. If your hand swings loose, sometimes close to his, then the possibility is there. Maybe you could move a little closer when you're sharing a task, or a joke - you know: seduce him. Very gently.

Then there's sex.

There's no way you can force someone to initiate sex. As you know, pleading and yelling are both horrendous turn-offs. What you can do, however, is make yourself appropriately (and un-pushily) available. See if you can picture how you'd behave if you wanted an old friend, who'd never thought of you 'that way', to start thinking! Gently - subtly - slowly and nicely - available.
This works better if you completely abstain from initiating sex. I know it's hard, and feels weird, especially when you've built up loads of coping mechanisms to deal with your situation. But it's humane, low-risk, good fun once you've got started - and it can work!
One other idea, totally opposed to the above, is to mutually resolve to have sex every day for a year. This has also worked wonders for many stagnant couples! You start off agreeing that "you don't have to enjoy it, just do it anyway" and, apparently, you find fairly quickly that you're enjoying it after all. There's a sound logic behind this; I'm just not sure either of your partners would agree to it. What do you think?
There's a very simple technique to delay ejaculation, which I would tell you about if this were a more free-speaking forum! Beats me why they don't teach it to boys in high school, but the majority of men seem completely ignorant of it until somebody shows them ... Look it up on one of those other forums, Lilybloom, it will at least improve the experience for you both, if not resolve the bigger issue.

I'm very sorry this has been such a long (and rather dull) post. It just seems that so many people are suffering this painful, and private, problem - the more ideas we each put forward, the closer we might come to finding solutions that work for some couples.

When you become used to the idea that sex in your marriage is bad - or non-existent - that silent strain undermines so much of your relationship, doesn't it? The easy intimacy goes, we start to feel nervous around each other and everything starts to feel hopeless. But I don't believe it is - at least, not always. The process can be undone; it's finding the right mindset that takes time and effort.

My little story:

The first Mr Grace and I had stopped having sex. You know, we were always tired or busy - then one of us was ill & had to sleep in the spare room - then we'd sort of lost the habit - and started to feel awkward about sex - so we didn't do it at all - and stopped hugging each other, stopped kissing - and eventually almost stopped looking at one another. He pushed me off him a few times, and then my wounded pride stopped me trying.

After a lot of hard thinking (too little, too late) I decided on pretty much the approach I've outlined above. I chose to believe our downward spiral could spiral upward again, and I chose to feel positive. We got along much better, enjoying each other's company and having fun together again.

After even more time I tried again, only this time with all the tricks & trimmings I knew he liked (but had stopped caring about, because my pride was injured). He burst into tears. He said some lovely things, then he said "it's too late".

What he meant was that he'd already committed to someone else. It really was too late. He got involved with someone else because of the way we were; we were already downhill, she wasn't the cause of our problem. When he said "it's too late", he meant it would have worked if it had happened sooner.

With hindsight, I know that marriage wasn't a good one; it would have ended anyway, once I'd sorted myself out. I learned a very big lesson that time, though.

I learned that pride and dignity are two different things. Fragile, hard and brittle, pride has no place in a loving relationship. Dignity is honest, strong and flexible. It empowers love.

AG

mmh

22nd October 2009, 05:52 PM

Thanks, AG, for the encouragement. I know that my husband is not into porn or secretly masturbating. I also don't believe he's having an affair. As I stated before, I DO believe that it stems from past unhealthy relationships and being with dominant woman. I don't want to be a dominant woman or the "head of the household". I've always wanted my husband to be the one who makes the final decision, and me to nurture and take care of him. He's happy with me making ALL the decisions, taking care of the finances, etc. I HATE doing this because it causes alot of stress. He lived alone for 4 years between marriages, and was extremely independent. As soon as we married, he became passive, so I had to step up to the plate.

Now, for the sex situation. He has never been affectionate- except at the beginning of our relationship. I fell in love with him before he began to withdraw. Like most women, I thought once we married, I could change him. However, as I stated before, it's like we now have to deal with this issue since the focus isn't on anything else (i.e. his ex-wife, the children). I don't like the feeling of rejection from the other relationship and am tired of constantly thinking about him. I want to put those thoughts on my husband, but I'm finding that hard to do. I know that the other relationship was supposed to just be about sex. However, he provided me with the emotional and physical things that I've been missing. We both began to develop feelings for each other, and to protect himself, he broke things off. So, I'm not only dealing with the issues at home, but also a "break-up" that has caused me pain.

Other men flirt with me at work, and I flirt back. I enjoy feeling that men still find me attractive, since my husband doesn't make me feel that way. There are times when I wish I was single, so I could get my needs met without betraying my husband. On the other hand, I like the companionship and knowing that there's someone here for me.

I'm so confused and am miserable about this situation. Depression is an issue for me, but lately, it's gotten worse. I cry for no reason and hardly ever laugh anymore. I've thought about just going away somewhere to gain perspective on everything. But, I have no money and don't want to return to my parents' home. Last night, I ordered several books recommended on this site. I'm hoping my husband will participate and be willing to do what the books say to "rekindle" our relationship.

I've talked to several friends about this situation, but they don't know what I'm feelings. I hate that any of us have to go through this. But, having the support of someone going through the same thing does provide some comfort. I will definitely keep up the these posts and am thankful for any/all advice.

Thanks!

mmh

22nd October 2009, 08:25 PM

Amber,

I, too have my MSW, and work as a therapist. It's very hard to know that me and my husband need counseling, but he won't go. And, like you, my husband was extremely affectionate before we began a sexual relationship (we waited 9 months before we had sex). He's only been with one other woman (his ex-wife) and when we first got together, it was exciting and passionate. Several months after our sexual relationship began, he began to withdraw and no longer initiated it.

I, too, am a Christian. What concerns me is that I don't feel guilty about the affair I had, and to be honest, I would have another one. I have talked to my husband so many times about this, but he does not see that we have a problem. He does not kiss me unless we are going to have sex, because he does not "see the point". We have opposite kissing styles, so even though our sex life is good (when we have sex), his kissing no longer turns me on.

I miss that passion and excitement we had when we first got together. His thoughts? No one can be together as long as we have and still have passion. I miss that and want it back! My self-esteem has gotten so low because he never looks at me THAT WAY. I can walk through the house naked, and he doesn't even look away from the TV. I talked to a male friend of mine, who said that this is not normal. He said that I should be beating him off with a stick because he should respond when I'm naked. I have back problems for which I take medication and it has caused me to put on some weight. I'm constantly worried that is the problem, although my husband says it's not. He was this way when I hadn't gained weight, so I believe him.

His first wife left him for another man, and while I could not understand how someone could do this, I now understand. I have even threatened to find someone else to meet my needs, but he just thinks I'm joking. I can tell him about things other men say to me, and he just laughs. I don't know if he doesn't think I'll cheat or if he just doesn't care anymore.

I don't know what to do.

Raymond

22nd October 2009, 08:29 PM

Amberheller there seems to be many problems going on here. One of the biggies for me is the porn. That can have a devastating effect on the marital intimacy. Read through some of these threads on it and you will see what I mean. It is really mental adultery and does divert the sexual drive onto these women he looks at on online. As a christian you will know that Jesus said if a man looks at a woman to lust after her he has committed adultery with her already in his heart. Isn't this happening in porn? As a man I know it is. How can God honour his marriage when that is happening?

You have to confront this Amberheller as it is not right. No all men do not do it. You don't have to be militant just confront in a normal voice. It will be hard to have a happy marriage with this going on. His intimacy should be with you and only you. Commitment means sexual commitment as well. One wonders what he is doing in the bath with his laptop quite frankly.

Maybe some of the other problems come from the porn as well in the way you have been replaced by this stuff. It is quite potent and can seriously affect ones spiritual life and relationship with God. To get free one must really want it and even then it will be a battle depending on how long it has been going on. A good movie that might help is "Fireproof" if you can get hold of it.

What you must remember is there is nothing wrong with you so don't let your self esteem be affected. It happens to very attractive women as well and the problem is the porn and what it does to a man. I'd really try and get some fellowship if you can. It is a big spiritual battle taking place in the part of your marriage which is supposed to be the most intimate and you will need all the help you can get. If he refuses to change you just might have to sadly use that option you spoke about.

Raymond

mmh

22nd October 2009, 10:29 PM

Amber,

Although our situations are different in many ways, I see SO MANY similarities. When I was having my affair, the other guy could become aroused by just talking to me. I have literally straddled my husband and began kissing him, only to receive no reaction from him. Like you, I have trouble accepting compliments- people have commented on this to me. I'm self-conscious about myself, which also brings comments. Although I'm no great beauty, I am evidently attractive, as men tell me I am. But, I'm always talking about my weight and other features that I'm ashamed of. A guy at work asked me the other day if I was ashamed of my body. When I said that I was, he told me that he could tell by the way I act when he compliments me. I NEVER get compliments from the man who I want to impress, so I assume that he no longer finds me attractive and desirable. If he doesn't find me that way, why should anyone else? I've found myself wanting to be around men who do flirt with me and compliment me. I dress up on the days when I know they're gonna be at work so I can get attention. Isn't that horrible and kind of sad?

MMH

mmh

23rd October 2009, 01:27 AM

Amber,

I know what you mean about trying to decide if you've got the strength to make it work. I think that my husband loves me as much as he can. However, I don't think he has the ability to love me as much as I love him. Like your husband, he says he cares and that he loves me. But his actions show something different. I threatened to leave him about 3 weeks ago, but he asked me to stay. For a few days, he treated me with a little more attention. That stopped. Then we went for over 2 weeks with no sex and no mention of it.

I have put up with so much during the 12 years we have been together. But, I've stayed, hoping that one day, he would put me first and make me a priority. His children are 21 and 17, so they no longer depend on him as they once did. His ex-wife, who has caused numerous problems for us, has chilled out. So, one would think that since we have no children, we would have a great marriage and spend lots of time together. But, we don't. I have talked to him until I'm just tired. I even bought a Dr. Phil "Relationship Rescue" book. I completed about half of it and read my answers to my husband. His response? "There wasn't anything in there that I didn't already know." He then continued to watch TV. I'm tired of sleeping alone (he sleeps on the couch because I snore. But when we go out of town, he can tolerate it). I don't know how much longer I can take it. After I threatened to leave, I decided to give him about 4 weeks before I made a decision- and the decision would be based on how his actions. And, nothing's changed. My needs are not his needs and I feel they should be. I don't think me and you are asking too much. Marriage shouldn't be one-sided and it sounds like it has become that way for both of us. I'll pray for you and thanks for your support. Let me know if you need to vent.

Meg (MMH)

Ageing Grace

23rd October 2009, 08:48 AM

Hi, MMH & Amber

No, it's not horrible of you to seek the validation you need by dresing up for work! Sad that you need it so badly, but that's not your fault ... it's actually healthy to know you can attract admiration at will :)

MMH: Since you are a therapist, it'd be interesting to know your thoughts about your husband's passive aggression? What you said about his ceding all responsibility to you upon marriage makes it look like he could be a classic case. In a textbook, he'd be acting out some historical fear & resentment of women (not you in particular, just your bad luck). Of course there could be other reasons for his behaviour change - I'm thinking of my Aspie ex - but passive aggression seems to fit your bill so far.

Since it isn't your choice to be in charge of everything, I really think you have to do something about the imbalace of power, rights & responsibilities within your relationship. It may not fix your sex life - but it will, at least, alter the dynamic between you for the better and, more urgently, mitigate your own feelings of resentment. Can I suggest it's time you booked yourself in for an assertiveness course?! Either with a colleague or with yourself, as long as you start putting it into practise ... ;)

Amber: You are suffering spousal abuse in so many ways. Your husband is a bully. Frankly, I think your sex problem is the least of your worries right now - although I'd suggest he's using his preference for porn as yet another means of putting you down. Grrr.

Being nice to bullies doesn't work. You have two choices (other than quitting). You can fight tooth & nail, or adopt a calm & dignified stance - in which you simply don't respond to his negativity. That is, respond if you like but only in a clear and practical way. Did you read Yogamad's thread here, entitled "My husband hates my family"? Her current thread shows just how far she's come, in the space of a few months :)

For both of you, the sex thing seems to be part of a greater and more pervasive problem in your marriage. It's not as if the whole thing would sort itself out, if only you had a good sex life - unfortunately :(

Please look after yourselves: especially Amber, you need to get back to church and work on your self-love. I wish you all the best - if only I could travel this particular path with you in person (I've had so much experience with bullies, blast them!). Virtual hugs will have to do for now.

AG xx

Ageing Grace

23rd October 2009, 10:25 PM

Bless you, Amber, you won't get told off :)

Somebody like Raymond can give you better guidance on god & divorce. Meanwhile, I feel that prayer/meditation does help us to find our true path. So do writing down our thoughts & feelings and getting other points of view - which is where these forums come in handy!

Possibly you won't be able to seriously consider leaving until you have tried everything. Without knowing your husband, I haven't a clue whether he's likely to respond to steady assertiveness on your part. When a person has got used to bolstering their own ego by trampling on someone else's, a total change of attitude by the underdog can really throw a spanner in the works. It might help to clarify your own thoughts, too - it's hard to make decisions when you've lost faith in your ability to do anything right :(

Dealing with a bully spouse is different from dealing with a workplace bully. The aim is to genuinely improve the relationship, rather than win a power game. Therefore I tend to recommend a 'calm, charm and detachment' offensive ;) An advantage of this is that you can amuse yourself (and your friends) greatly while doing it ... everything's better if you can get a chuckle out of it!

For most bullies, it's just not as much fun when you don't get a reaction. If your husband is likely to escalate his attacks to violence, then non-reaction would be a poor choice. Nonetheless, you do need to regain a foothold in your marriage so as to help your self respect.

Is writing here doing anything to help you get a clearer view of your dilemma?

Remember to take very good care of your self! I still keep self-affirming flash cards in my handbag, and I'm not ashamed of it :D

AG xx

mmh

24th October 2009, 05:00 AM

Amber,

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but this is the first opportunity I've had to get on the computer today.

I'm no Bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but with my sister having gone through a divorce and remarrying, I have studied some on the subject. Plus, my husband was married before, so I looked to the Bible for answers before I married him. This is what I feel the Bible states about marriage and divorce. If a Christian is married to a non-Christian, he/she is not to leave their spouse because they are not a Christian. They are to witness to their spouse and pray that the Holy Spirit convicts them and they accept the Lord. However, if the Christian does choose to leave- for adultery, abuse, etc.- God does not hold that person accountable for the marriage. Does that make sense? I will try to find that scripture in the Bible because I can't remember it off the top of my head.

Like you, I am great at fixing other people's problems- just not my own. I have to agree that your husband sounds like a bully. Working at a residential treatment facility with teenage boys who have emotional and/or behavior problems, I deal with bullies all day long. I also deal with their victims. I have to agree with the AG regarding how you can handle this situation. It seems that he only wants a response from you and continues bullying as long as he gets that response. If you act like you don't care what he says, he will probably stop doing it. However, be careful. I don't know if he's physically abusive, but I'd hate to suggest you do this and then he become enraged.

Having married a man with children and having 2 nieces whose parents are divorced, I understand your concerns about your daughter. However, my husband, whose parents are also divorced, has stated many times that he was glad when they split up. He was 14 and said that the fighting was worse than the divorce. If the only reason you're staying is because of her, don't. She's so young that if you get out of this, she won't remember y'all fighting and his treatment of you. If you stay, you need to think about what she's going to have to witness and do you want her to grow up, thinking that this is normal, only to wind up in the same type of marriage?

Like AG said, you are the victim of abuse. As you know, there are so many kinds of abuse- he doesn't have to hit you to abuse you. Divorce is hard on everyone. But, you've got to decide if this is the kind of life you want to have or if you want to cut your losses and move on. You deserve so much better.

Meg

P.S. Do you live in the U.S. or the UK?

mmh

24th October 2009, 05:14 AM

AG,

Thanks for your support and encouragement. My husband is certainly passive aggressive and I believe that it stems from his past. His mother spent his childhood complaining of various illnesses. He was the one to take care of her. When he was about 11, he realized that there was nothing really wrong with her and she was doing this to get attention. Needless to say, he lacks compassion and sympathy for others. (I have severe back problems and have to admit that he does have compassion for me. But, I think it's because he knows that I'm not faking in order to get his sympathy). His mother yelled as his father ALL THE TIME! She threatened to divorce him for several years before they finally split. His father would tune her out and just ignore her. This is how my husband responds when we fight. I've learned not to yell at him if I want him to listen to me. Otherwise, he just shuts out what I'm saying.

His ex-wife became pregnant when they were in high school. His mother had a fit, stating that she hoped the baby died. This caused severe tension between his mother and his then wife and they never got along. His ex-wife tried to keep him from his mother and would make it difficult for the two of them. (His mother later apologized for the statement, but his wife couldn't forgive her). He had never had sex with anyone else, and he loved her. But, he said that shortly into their marriage, she changed. I'm not just saying this because she's his ex, but she is extremely manipulative and selfish. She would humiliate him in front of others, always putting him down. She left him for another man, and my husband tried to get her back. She laughed at him. She once called him to ask him which lingerie looked best on her because her new boyfriend was coming over. After he and I began dating, she wanted him back and would bring the new boyfriend over to his apartment while I was there. After 12 years after their divorce, I believe she regrets leaving him. I (and their youngest daughter) believe that she still loves him. However, she is still emotionally abusive to him and talks horrible about him to their daughters. She's rude, money hungry, and mean.

So, enter me. I hate confrontation and am NOT assertive. (I liked your comment about me needing to go to assertiveness classes. I agree). I have put up with so many things during the time we've been together, but have stayed because I love him. I never wanted us to split up for any other reason (i.e. his ex, his children, etc.) than we had problems. But now, we have problems. I've always known that he was passive aggressive because I have become irate at how he deals (or refuses to deal) with his ex-wife. But, I never thought that there would be this wall between us that he doesn't feel or acknowledge. We went out tonight and had a great time. However, tomorrow he will go hunting and we'll go right back to the way we've been.

Thanks again. Any further advice is greatly needed and would be greatly appreciated.

Meg (MMH)

Raymond

25th October 2009, 09:31 AM

Amber with regard to the porn your husband is showing all the classic symptons. I don't understand how he can read Dobson and still do porn. It is a mental adultery. His mind will be filled with the women he watches on it. When he is having sex with you they are there in his head. (you don't switch them off that easily, this stuff is addictive) It sounds like he is playing out the porn using you. His mind will be on them however. Porn figures in 50% of divorces in the States in some way or other.

This stuff destroys intimacy slowly and surely. Marriage and intimacy is between husband and wife only. Porn can be a diversion of the sexual drive taking away from the true God given intimacy in the bedroom. Until he comes off this and gets the victory the bedroom will not blossom as it should. There is nothing wrong with his sex drive. It has just been contaminated with the porn. I thought that any christian knew this.

It is good that he is reading Dobson. I am sure he writes about this in some of his books. All our sexual needs (including visual) should only be met by our wives and vice versa. That is part of the sanctity of marriage.

I've written quite a lot on this if you trail through the old threads.

Raymond

mmh

25th October 2009, 10:23 PM

Amber,

I'm gonna give you my email address. Email me when you can. There's a couple of things I'd like to talk about, but not on a post. If you're not comfortable with that, then just let me know. Maybe we can figure some things out on what both of us are going to do.

Meg

Ageing Grace

26th October 2009, 01:39 AM

Amber, your last post was heartbreaking. Yes, I do know the feelings you're describing and the thought of you living your whole life like this horrifies me.

This not normal, nor acceptable.

Please take care to shore yourself up - emotionally, physically and financially. It's important.

Sending you love,
AG

yogamad

27th October 2009, 10:03 AM

Hi Amber and Meg

I know you've read some of my threads Amber but I really do appreciate what you're both going through as I've gone through it also and only just coming out the other end.

AG has given you advice to do new things, take up new hobbies, visit old friends etc. She also gave me the same advice and it slowly started to work for me. I accepted every invitation I was given, looked up old friends, made myself very busy and I become a happier person in my own right. At work people I wasn't so friendly with, I made the effort to try to get to know them better. I've made some new friends through old friends. Basically my confidence and self esteem soared so that when H put me down I felt more able to deal with it and found it didn't upset me as much as it once did.

Also, AG said to not give a response when H puts you down. H put me down all the time and eventually I learned to put him in his place calmly and without raising my voice or ignoring him altogether. Amber next time H phones you and isn't very nice, I would calmly tell him that unless he can speak to you properly then not to bother ringing again because you won't answer. I hate being told what to do and it really used to get on my nerves when H told me to do this and that and what I was doing wrong all the time.

Eventually I told him that I'd moved on and he didn't like it at all, that was the big turn around for us and the next day he was more affectionate and caring. Before I had threatened to leave, that I wasn't happy any more but the fact that I'd moved on and he could see that I was happy really unnerved him I think.

Things can change I promise you if you both want it and work at it. I could never imagine even kissing my H but yet here we are now having a good sex life again.

Good luck to you both. I'm thinking of you.
Yoga
x

Ageing Grace

30th October 2009, 03:07 AM

Amber, your letter is thoughtful, well argued, balanced and clear.

I don't think you should send it.

As a tool for your own thought processes, it has a lot of value.

As an attempt to influence your husband, it's unlikely to achieve anything. It's accusatory and offers no alternative way forward. I'm sorry I'll have to keep this much shorter than you deserve - it's 3am here - but I wanted to reply quickly to you.

Please take another look at Yogamad's post above. It's about taking charge of your own life.

More later :rolleyes:

AG x

Raymond

30th October 2009, 01:30 PM

Funny I have the opposite instinct. Here is a man who doesn't appear to listen and here is a desperate wife who needs to lay it on the line.

I think you do need to send it. The very fact that you have to write it should speak to any husband that there is something desperately wrong.

I think it will make or break the marriage according to his response. If my wife sent me a letter like that I would be devastated but I would surely go through every line again and again until I had it in my soul. If he wants to mend it this is his chance.

You sound a good woman Amber and need to say these things. My wife would never hold back if there were these kinds of issues. Obviously this has been building for a long time because he is not listening. I think he needs this shock and he needs the truth. My heart sang when I read the letter. At last the issues are being aired. It might just do the trick but the porn has to go. By the way every man wants a wife with a high SD. Take away the porn and he may well have a high SD.

Your love language seems to be touch and you need the hugs and the holding hands just like my wife. I had to learn this coming from an orphan background. Now it is natural to me and I will often hug someone without thinking about it, especially my wife.

The problems in your marriage are not insurmountable but it will take his full co-operation. Control is another issue mentioned also on Confuseds thread.

Must stop here. My instinct is to send it but you have to weigh it up and decide obviously. You may need to look over it again to address AG points but I think overall it needs to be sent.

Raymond

PS show him the DVD "Fireproof"

Jazz204

30th October 2009, 09:05 PM

Amber, life is not meant to be as yours is. Life is for enjoying, laughing, loving. I am all for marriage, all for raising kids within a marriage but when you are with someone such as your spouse, it becomes impossible. You and your children are ENTITLED to respect and feeling safe. Dont get bogged down by all the 'things', stick to the one thing. Your and your children being entitled to a good happy life and take positive steps towards that, knowing you are in the right. Look at life as being in small chunks, always with the idea of creating a good life. Dont feel guilty about all the domestication and controlling ways of society, its your life, it will be over soon enough, you dont need to waste it on a bullying nasty screwed up man who is wrecking your childrens futures. Its all very well to say stay, work at it and all that stuff, but in your case I think being separate would be best for all of you. Sometimes this is the case. Further down the track, who knows but at this moment, there are so many issues confronting you, its best for you to remove yourself and your children from the contamination.
Jazz

Ageing Grace

30th October 2009, 10:44 PM

Oh dear, Amber, I really should not have replied as I did. I'm very glad your letter has stimulated further thoughts on your part, and superb replies from Raymond and Jazz.

For goodness sake, don't delete it! Your soul's in that letter. Even if you don't send it, you may want to read it later.

The big question I wanted to ask, after I read it the first time, is: What does she want? Your letter reads like "Goodbye" but you say "I'm not leaving you". I understand your need to be heard - and, if that is your sole purpose in writing to him, then I'd say so at the beginning and end of your letter.

You don't need to say you're not leaving, IMO: it sounds like you know he'll think that - well, anybody would after reading that letter! But, essentially, it sounds like "I know what you're thinking and you're wrong." Pointless. (In my opinion.)

I don't know whether you want to change your marriage (or give it another shot, at least) or to quit it. After reading your letter, I'm none the wiser.

I write stuff for a living. The one question you must never fail to answer in your writing is: "What's my overall message?" You've said a warehouse full of stuff - and said it very well - but ... what is your overall message? It may be better to state it.

Amber, my personal opinion is that you WOULD be better off out of this marriage. Your husband's behaviour is despicable. You've done plenty to try & change it, yet here you are again; still. Life is short. Your daughter's growing up with your marriage as a model - you & I both know what that kind of model does to a person's relationship potential!

Jellybean wrote, in another thread, she feels she "wasted" 8 years trying to save her marriage - as she remarks, she has the moral advantage but passed 8 years of her childrens' lives, which could have been so much more positive.

However. Marriages have their own quirks; nobody ever knows precisely how a relationship feels to the people in it. I felt Yoga would be better off out of hers - but the truth is, a spouse can be better off all by herself, within or without her marriage.

You do not need your husband's permission, nor even his approval, to become a braver, better, happier & more fulfilled Amber. Moreover, if you just get on with living YOUR life the way YOU believe is best ... he will change. I suggested that Yoga think of it as a game (it is a game; you know that, you're a psychologist!) If one player changes the rules / their mode / their role ... the game must change. That's guaranteed; what is less certain is the way in which it will change.

I think you have a lot of work to do on Amber and I congratulate you on recognising this - I had to have 2 breakdowns before I started listening to my self! Whether you choose to continue your Amber work inside or outside your marriage is up to you. I think it's time you took another small step forward in your work. Make some choices without reference to him, not even to anticipate how he'll react. His reactions are his choice; your actions are yours.

I'm verging on rant mode! Sorry.

Vis-a-vis your letter: Please could you try it without the last paragraph? Please could you try stating [a] what you want him to take from it, and [b] what result you require from it?

I hope this made at least a bit of sense :o

AG xxx

Raymond

31st October 2009, 12:26 PM

I think AG is right. Removing the last paragraph about not leaving would be good. It takes away from the desperation in the letter which he needs to know.

I see the letter as a desperate attempt to save the marriage. If it is not that and you just want to go why bother to send it?

I think you have a lot of good stuff in there. Reading between the lines there is only one message. He needs to listen to his suffering wife and take note of a few things, step up and be a husband. It is a cry for help rather that a husband bashing excercise.

I think it is inspired Amber and needs to be sent to him. No letter is going to be perfect but the gist of it is obvious. True things will never be the same again but things need to move on. If that doesn't hit him what else will? I say hit him in a nice way in the sense that he needs to be hit with it. The letter says it loud and clear and is the truth. I pray that God speak to him through it.

Raymond

jellybean28

31st October 2009, 01:40 PM

Hi Amber

After reading your posts, I can relate to where you are coming from having been there.

My Ex was very difficult to talk to and I always felt any issues I had were up to me to deal with as he didn't want to know.

To be honest I got to the point where I didn't know what I wanted, but I wasn't happy with the way things were.

I would write a letter to your husband, as that way you can say what you want to and not get into an argument and forget what it is you wanted to tell him.

However I would tell him what it is you want from your marriage and if he is not prepared to give you that, then you will have to consider whether to stay or leave him. On the issue of him hitting your daughter in anger I would forgive him this once and this once only this way you can move on and not let your anger fester it will eat into your relationship. Having said this I would make it very clear to him that if he ever lays a finger on you or you children again in anger you will not give him a second chance.

What I'm trying to say here is write you letter telling him what you want and what you will not put up with in your marriage, without saying you never, you did etc instead say, this is what I would like and this is what I will not put up with. I would also tell him you still love him if you do.

You are in a difficult position, but whatever happens you will get through it. If your marriage isn't working and you are really unhappy and your husband and you for that matter aren't prepared to put in 110% then staying together for the sake of the children, will only lead to greater hurt and sorry. By all means give things a time frame say of 1yr to change.
Keep posting here, there's some good people with great advice and support.

Take care amber ;)

jellybean28

31st October 2009, 01:52 PM

One more thing to borrow this sentence from Grace

You do not need your husband's permission, nor even his approval, to become a braver, better, happier & more fulfilled Amber. Moreover, if you just get on with living YOUR life the way YOU believe is best ... he will change. I suggested that Yoga think of it as a game (it is a game; you know that, you're a psychologist!) If one player changes the rules / their mode / their role ... the game must change. That's guaranteed; what is less certain is the way in which it will change.

My husband was a control freak and I did the above almost destroyed me. Now I do not seek approval or permsssion from anyone but myself to live my life. I have spent most of my life seeking approval from other people first my mother then my Husband. Funny things is now I have changed I finally am getting the love and respect from my mother I have yearned for. :)

jellybean28

3rd November 2009, 10:30 AM

Amber after reading your last post I would be inclined to leave your husband. He seems to be very controlling, and if your not careful he will end up stripping you of your self esteem.

Is there someone you can talk to help you see what your options are?
Living together on the same block seems like a bad idea to me.
For you own sake Amber take care of yourself so can take care of your children, if your family are supportive turn to them for support.

Also with the family day care, I'm sure you would be able to start one up else where, with all the two/single parent working familes there are.

Take care my friend :) oh and don't worry about long posts, sometimes mine get long once I start stuff just keeps pouring out.

Raymond

3rd November 2009, 01:26 PM

From the letter you wrote Amber I originally thought you wrote it to try and sort the marriage and was hopeful it could be saved. There are a lot of things wrong as you say. Quite a number of issues in fact.

To concentrate on one. Hitting one of the children out of anger towards you. That is quite terrible but has he not said he was sorry or anything?

Your husband does seem very selfish but has a few good points as well, as you have admitted. I think the sex thing is all because of the porn. As I said before I have seen the same pattern on here many times. That is quite a big one in my book.

You seem to have decided already to leave and you have to do what you think is right. It is sad. Personally I would have liked to see how he would have responded to the letter, but once you decide to end it it becomes irrelevant in a way.

Raymond

Ageing Grace

3rd November 2009, 03:24 PM

I'm generally in favour of trying to repair a marriage. But your posts depict a man with deep-seated issues of control and entitlement - which I don't believe will be fixed any time soon (or ever!). Stating the obvious, he doesn't see anything wrong with the way he is so there's no further point in trying to encourage him to change.

Amber, you took the biggest step you could towards prompting his desire to change when you served your divorce. Instead of forcing him to recognise his faults - and to work harder at keeping you happy - he has simply used your statements as evidence of your wrongness (in his eyes) ... and has punished you for it.

He cares nothing for your happiness, only for his own power over you.

Reading your last post above, I found myself muttering "he's insane!" Honestly, the story about your dinner date and the car makes absolutely no sense - except to a crazy person. He's got issues all right, and you've already done everything you can to get him to see that. He doesn't.

Further: Hitting you and your child - even just the once - is unacceptable. Nobody lashes out only once. Choose to stay, and I believe you will be choosing to live with escalating violence.

The long-term effect on your children hardly bears thinking about. What they have learned about adult relationships, so far, is: [1] Marriage is about control & resistance; [2] A husband should hit, punish, abandon and steal from his wife; [3] Married people are happiest when apart.

Lovely. Are you sure you want this for them? :confused:

In your case, Amber, I'm delighted that you found yourself saying you wanted out. You should listen to your self more! Doubtless, this will be easier when your mind's not constantly overwhelmed by trying to anticipate your husband's next attack.

I understand your thoughts around setting up shared lodgings in your home. However, I think he will continue to control you from there. You're susceptible to his manipulations; why on earth would he give it up just because you have separate bedrooms?

It looks like a very good idea to talk with your mother in detail. Ask her to help you write a summary of the faults in your marriage (print out this thread for her, too). Then ask her to help you find trustworthy legal advice. It may be possible for you to keep your home & business - without having to share it with your oppressor.

I know you're not ready to hear this, Amber. You're an amazingly tolerant individual, with extraordinary good will :) So I'll simply ask you to turn your talent for helping on yourself for a while!

And please, please talk to your mum.

Much love,
AG

Raymond

4th November 2009, 08:57 AM

Thank you for your response Amber. My view is as you have written the letter already isn't it worth having one last go and sending it to him? If no repentance comes forth again then your assurance would be even greater to have the divorce. You may be right. He might not respond at all and then again he might. Who knows?

I am certainly not commending that you battle on in your marriage forever. I just feel your letter is particularly inpired and as I said before will make or break your marriage such is the power I feel that is in it.

Obviously you are praying about the situation and you will have your leadings from God which are more important than what I am saying and yet God can use others as well.

Raymond

jellybean28

5th November 2009, 01:07 PM

HI Amber

Your seem to be a good devoted wife and mother. You are still carrying a lot of hurt which is understandable, stand by what you have written and don't let your husband make you back down. You are a strong women who deserves to be loved and treated with respect.

One which helped me to heal was to write all of my feelings in a journal, sometimes I would write pages, sometimes once a day or week, sometimes twice it doesn't matter how often or what you write hold nothing back.
Keep it where it can't be read by others, or when you've finished writing destroy it.

Also nothing lifts my heart more than finding gratitude everyday, sharing it is even better, for someone elses heart is lifted also.Oh and take care of yourself, by doing things that make you happy :p

Keep up us updated Amber
Hugs Gillian

Raymond

5th November 2009, 01:32 PM

I don't know how you put it in the past Amber but the letter you have written is so clear. My thought is for him to read the letter not as an ultimatum, (you don't want false responses here or mixed motives), but as a communication and plea for help. If it falls on deaf ears you know what you have to do. Personally I think porn can be grounds for divorce on it's own because it is sexual unfaithfulness.

Your letter is quite a mixed bag of things and assuming that he did want to respond what would be the order of priority for you? I think it would be a good excercise for you to list the things you mentioned in order of their priority to you. I mean what would he start on first?

I understand your tentativeness here because of the past. You don't want promises if the changes are not from the heart. That would be a cop out. You will know if is from his heart soon enough. If it turns out to be so then he will need a little time to work it through, but you will have the signs that he is trying.

People can change Amber. I have changed a lot in marriage and I have learned that my wife is my number one priority in life, next to God of course, but he's the one who counsels us to love our wives. You are stepping out a lot in giving him another chance Amber even though you feel you want to leave now. I will be praying for you. Things should never be this way. All wives are entitled to love and understanding and that is what us men should be working towards. Lets hope and pray something happens here.

Raymond

Ageing Grace

6th November 2009, 12:00 AM

All wives are entitled to love and understanding and that is what us men should be working towards. Lets hope and pray

Amen to that :)

xx

Raymond

10th November 2009, 01:15 PM

Theres a big contradiction going on here Amber. It is quite unbelievable really that he is reading books about improving his already good marriage when the reality is that it is at rock bottom. I hope it tells him to listen to his wife. I think it is a good time for him to get the letter. A I said before it is not a negative but a cry for help. He must be going around with blinkers on. It is a good thing that he is reading though. We can thank God for that and hope his eyes will open a little. Your letter is very important here.

The main counseling for any christian husband is to love their wives as christ loves the church and live with them with understanding. That entails all sorts of things.

I hope one day he will say what an idiot I have been and how blind I was. You should be the most important person in his life. Pray that God uses this book but I am convinced he needs the letter also.

Raymond

Ageing Grace

14th November 2009, 02:53 PM

Chicken soup. Aspirin. Heating up high. Drink water. Instruct husband to make "poor baby" noises :mad:

Get well soon!

AG xxxxx

Raymond

16th November 2009, 10:41 AM

It sounds to me that you have no faith in him, that it is going to fail and are planning your way out. As I said before why are you even writing the letter as brilliant as that is?

It will not be another chance he is getting as you are setting things up for him to fail and have already planned your escape.

You seem afraid to hope and won't believe he can change. You may be right, but why is he reading books on how to improve his marriage. He may be doing all the wrong things but isn't there something there that might work against all odds?

As I said before I think it is worth one more chance but if you are not open to that it will not really be a chance. I know you have been through a lot and are at the end of yourself. You came on here about problems in your marriage but sound now as if you want it to be over.

It has to be your choice Amber. My own view is that it is a brilliant letter but things seem to have detiorated in your mind since you wrote that letter and now you don't even want to give him the chance to respond.

Maybe it is that your childrens and your sickness is affecting you right now. I will pray you do the right thing. We cannot even get through life without hope and we will certainly not enjoy a marriage without it. Do what you need to do. I pray that it will be the right thing.

Raymond

jellybean28

16th November 2009, 01:04 PM

Amber you seem really angry and confused right now. I understand you have unwell children and aren't well yourself. What is that you really want Amber. Do you want to separate from your husband? Or are you trying to scare him into changing his ways? :confused:

If you no longer you feel you love him then you need to be honest and tell him. Maybe some time talking with your minister or a counciller would help.
You seem to be so angry, which given your posts is understandable, but your anger may be clouding your judgement. Also if you've been through all this before, applying for divorce, why are you putting youself and your children through this emotional rollar coaster ride again?

When your husband gets back would it be possible for him to stay elsewhere, for a while so you and he can talk things through instead of being under the same roof all of the time, that way you can work out your feelings without worrying about him manipulating you.

A good book to read is "to good to leave, to bad to stay" I can't remeber who the authour is but it's well worth reading.

Take care amber, hope you and your children are feeling better

Raymond

15th January 2010, 01:04 PM

Hi Amber. I don't think the sex will ever be right while he is doing porn. He will be partially satisfied through doing that which creates a rift in your marriage. Until it is you and only you without the distraction of porn how can the bedroom be worked out?

I am amazed that he is reading marriage books and doesn't know that. I'll be glad when he gets that letter. He needs to know the truth. Can't believe he wants to write a book on men and women when he doesn't bother to know his own woman in a full way. Porn figures in over 50% of divorces in the States. His response to the letter is crucial. I know of a christian couple where they haven't slept together for ten years. After he started porn the sex diminished more and more and if there was any it was done in a selfish way, more like repeating what he had watched. She has considered divorce but seems routed to the spot trying to do the right thing. Time will tell.

I really hope your situation can be sorted Amber.

Raymond

Raymond

15th January 2010, 07:34 PM

Your husband seems to be a bit of a selfish bully from my vantage point Amber. Are you afraid of him? It's either that or a control thing going on.

Enjoyment for sex for wives always comes out of relationship usually. Love should operate in the bedroom as elsewhere. He should know how to please you but seems focussed only on his own needs it appears. I believe the porn is tainting him. There is a spirit behind it which can come on him right into the bedroom through him. In a way it's just not you two having sex. It is him, you and all the others he is being tittilated by.We know that is not part of God's kingdom. Remember that God made sex but a mental adultery will marr it. It should be you only you and nobody else. Not all these young naked women he stirs himself up for. He is in a big deception over it I believe. From my experience, not personally, porn is a big killer in the bedroom. If he doesn't dump it he could become addicted and then he will have a fight on his hands.

I thought he was reading marriage books by Dobson but if that is not the case is he reading any christian marriage books? If he is I cannot see the fruit of it.

So you still have the letter and are choosing the right time. I would read it again and make sure you mean the words you say in it. Once he has it there is a certain stance you need to take. You need to be listened to. It would be no good carrying on the same after that as you have poured your soul into that letter.

Try and keep up any spiritual disciplines you have and get good fellowship. You need God's perspective on this as well.

Raymond

Raymond

16th January 2010, 10:36 AM

I could feel that you were struggling about the letter Amber. You have had it for such a long time now. Maybe it's better to leave it until you really know it is right? It will take courage to give it, but when the timing is right you will have the courage. Maybe you can get the points over gradually to him? If he is never going to listen though maybe it will have to be the letter? It was a move of desperation more than anything.

Yes there are a lot of men on here going through a time of reflection about their behaviour. Some of it will be sadly too late others will turn it around.

Your daughter seems to be suffering from lack of nurture from your husband. Perhaps that is why she reverts to baby talk with him to get his sympathy?

Yeah don't look at the porn. It will be shocking and depressing. It's like an inroad to the most intimate part of your marriage. Sickening really as the purity in marriage can make sex amazing. Even if he does give it up it will take time and effort to wash his mind.

He really needs something to happen in his life to shake his pride perhaps? I would continue to pray about it. God can do that if He has to. We all need a little of it at times. Some of us are so thick we still don't repent even when God is chastising us but when we do the joy is amazing.

Raymond

Ageing Grace

26th January 2010, 01:25 AM

Thank you very much for your messages, Amber. It's really good to hear from you.

I know how confusing everything seems from inside your kind of dilemma, because I've been there. I fully understand why everything feels wrong & upside-down ... it's hard for you to get your head around it, but it feels like your fault because he twists you that way. Never mind, it takes ages to extricate yourself from such a knotted trap. You've made some amazing steps towards regaining your own mind. Pat yourself on the back, and keep going. Baby steps!

I have agreed to stay away from other people's problems for a while - part of my own process, and I know my therapist is right. As I quit for the time being, Amber, I'll offer you two precious resources.

If you haven't yet read it, PLEASE get hold of a copy of Lundy Bancroft's book, it describes & explains so much: http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656

Here is the website of Women's Aid in the UK. They're fantastic for a sensible chat about relationship things :) They should also be able to point you towards good local resources:
http://www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-articles.asp?section=00010001002200410001&itemid=1272&itemTitle=What+is+domestic+violence

All the very best, and lots of love. I may not post, but I'll be keeping an eye out for you and wishing you well!

AG xx

Raymond

26th January 2010, 01:14 PM

Hi Amber. How did I miss your post?

Lack of housekeeping skills is nothing to do with it. My wife doesn't excel in this area but that is nothing to do with what is right and what is wrong.

I think he is going around in blinkers. How can he do porn and talk so righteous?

Believe me you are not wrong Amber. The way he is carrying on sticks out a mile for anyone who cares to read your posts.

I know that nobody has a perfect husband but to practice pornography goes beyond a normal decent line, expecially for a christian. I think he has tunnel vision and only sees what he wants to see.This is all mental adultery and affects the marriage and will seriously affect his spiritual life as well.

Be encouraged Amber you are not mad. Your points are extremely valid. We are not here to break mariages but to mend them and are not trying to set the wife against the husband. The point is he is already doing that by his obnoxious behaviour.

Raymond

jellybean28

26th January 2010, 01:41 PM

Amber

Like AG says keep going baby steps. By the time my marriage was over, I belived my Ex was Perfect :rolleyes:, and I was stupid, fat and ugly, un-employable and worthless oh and the best one paranoid because I thought he was having an affair (which he was), but hey I drove him to it, because of my so called faults. None of the above is true erm apart from I'm a bit overweight by a few Kilos. How did I come to believe this about myself? from his manipulative mind games.

Amber like Ray says you are not mad, and we are not here to break marriages, my only regret is I stayed in a toxic relationship which almost destroyed me for to long and then spent two years hoping he would come back.

Amber you are an intelligent woman who deserves better, and a few faults doesn't make you a bad wife or mother. No one is perfect or with out faults. Your hubands Porno obession is far worse than lack of a few house keeping skills and the pot has no right to call the kettle black.:eek:

Take Care Amber
JBxxxxx

Raymond

28th January 2010, 08:47 AM

Probably the latter reading between the lines Derek.

Raymond

headoverheelsinlove

30th January 2010, 01:10 AM

I have cried-begged-fought with my husband over sex (or lack there of) for 2 years. Before we married I joked that I didn't care about $$$ or my home, but I wanted a pre-nup for sex every night. Now I would be happy with 3x a week, and I can't seem to get it once! Before we were married he always wanted me.
He has used EVERY excuse in the book, Anti-depressants (had them changed from prozac to Wellbutrin xl), Family issues with his brother causing MAJOR stress, a work related injury requiring surgery, his low self esteem due to weight gain. IT IS ALWAYS SOMETHING!!! I have tried everything I can think of, and nothing works.
NEWSFLASH, an astounding number of men (and women) are addicted to internet porn, it can destory your sex life, and your marriage. I just had a goofy feeling and took the computer to a data recovery geek. Even though it was all dumped, he was able to pull it up for me. My husband tried to deny, but did admit it. He is getting help, and our marriage is in recovery already. HE IS ONE OF THE MOST HONEST PEOPLE I KNOW, AND I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS HAPPENED. It takes everything out of your physical relationship, It is an addiction, just like a drug.

Raymond

30th January 2010, 11:23 AM

Raymond- When I posted on here in a few places and got no responses I felt that I had angered people... I realize that it was me feeling guilty for not being more present here that caused that feeling, and it was quite egocentric. Also has something to do with my mindstate of not feeling good enough- in my head I said to myself, Amber you dolt, now you did it, a few people that took the time and energy to help you and now you proved to them that you aren't worth their time... geez... I need to work on that! We got into an argument a few days ago and he exclaimed at the end of a rant of his - "And don't write me any long notes... I don't need that. Do you hear me???" to which I replied quietly yes I hear you. if I had ANY guts I would have said well I have a note for you, but it is already written does that count? and handed it to him. But I didn't.

Amber it is nice to hear from you. With regard to the above this site is a provision not a duty. You are welcome at anytime. Even just to rant. It is not my site but I am sure David and Liz (the owners) would concur with this.

I can't imagine saying that to my wife what he said about the letter. It sounds very callous and cruel to me. Your husband hasn't got it right regarding sex and could be at some stage of porn addiction. The scripture is very clear about sex only within marriage. That is why it is so important to get it right. Any sex outside marriage is adultery including pornography and the assoctiated practices. The same word is used for spiritual adultery where we inwardly worship an idol instead of God. Relationship is very intimate with God and within marriage. Expressing that urge outside marriage, porn in this case, is a travesty. It may be that sex is a kind of worship at least of our bodies and souls but porn muddies the waters and perverts what should be pure.

As a man if I get an idle moment in bed and find my self thinking of a female image sexually as soon as I am aware of it I turn my thoughts to my wife instead. Keeping the bedroom exciting is a great help in this. If we are not drinking from the right fountain we could be in danger of drinking from the wrong fountain. Doing porn is the opposite of this and is actually feeding the lust instead of resisting it. That lust will then grow and grow until it becomes an addiction.

http://player.premier.tv/premiertv.aspx?AssetId=2987ff5d-23e6-47f0-b698-e18b855df666&ChannelId=

The above outlines some of what I am saying. On the same site there is an investigation into porn.

I know I need to be talking to your husband and not you Amber but if you can learn anything about it from a christian point of view you may be armed to bring a word of wisdom at the right time.

I believe Porn can be grounds for divorce personally. Not saying it is automatic grounds. It has to be worked out between the wife and her God, but good counseling will help as well.

God bless you
Raymond

Raymond

30th January 2010, 11:40 AM

I am so glad your husband has recognised the sin of watching porn Headoverheals. It always takes away from the marriage bed in most cases I have observed.

It will be a struggle for him, but the more he arms himself with the right teaching on it the more chance he has of being delivered.

Sex is God's gift within marriage and can be a virtual ongoing feast, but who is the one who has come to kill, steal and to destroy?

Let us know how he gets on. We need to hear from those who have won this battle. God can restore the years the locusts have eaten if we let Him.

Raymond

headoverheelsinlove

31st January 2010, 11:49 PM

I am torn between how to help him out of this mess. Do I ask questions, or not? I read THE PORN TRAP, and I have compassion for the withdrawl that he must be suffering. He is seeing a counselor, and is making great strides. He has low self esteem related to this, feels like a low life. I do not know how to relate to him. Do I ask ???? How long?, How many times per week?? We have always had such great communication, and I don't want to break that now, but this is such a bizarre private issue. I cannot decide how to relate to him, it almost seems like he is becoming a stranger.

Raymond

1st February 2010, 11:36 AM

Personally I don't think it would be helpful to ask how long or how many times a week it was. If he is putting this behind him he needs to now look forward not back. Having said that part of his healing will be being open to you about it. If he wants to broach that let him. You can't not be involved as you are his wife and it would have affected your intimacy with him so you need to fight this together.

That he feels it is a low life is a truth. He needs that disgust to be motivated for victory over it. If he didn't feel that he may not have come to repentance, but having repented he will know that the blood of christ washes him from all sin. The enemy will try to put condemnation on him which isn't healthy. The main thing for him now is to resist and build a different pattern of behaviour. He will do it with God's help and your help.

There are a number of christians who have overcome this and have come into freedom. They will know it is not a game and have learned where the defences should be. In the end one of the best defences apart from personal faith is to enjoy the legitimate sexual relationship and intimacy that God has given in marriage, but this might take time for him. Pornography actually attacks this strangely enough so healing would bring this back into focus.

I expect that this strangeness could be coming from his disgust with himself perhaps feeling that he is not worthy of you. I wouldn't rush this. He is doing the right thing. He is in a battle for freedom just now. Be patient and all things should be restored much better than they were before.

Raymond

spiderman

2nd February 2010, 01:18 PM

Derek...I think you have hit on a couple of salient points there buddy !

The younger women of today are more sexually liberated and know what they want. Many older women are quite/too reserved in the bedroom which can cause problems . Well it did in mine anyway...big problems..... marriage ending in fact!

jellybean28

2nd February 2010, 01:50 PM

The younger women of today are more sexually liberated and know what they want. Many older women are quite/too reserved in the bedroom which can cause problems

Spider you have a point there, but when a woman is pushing the other side of 40, and knows there are plenty of 20yrs who are available, it's a bit hard not to feel intimidated in the bedroom. Especially when she's had children and the body isn't as firm as it used to be. Aging is much harder on women than men. Grey hair in men is often referred to as distinguished, where as in woman the're just getting old etc.

They can be other issues, ubringing, sexual abuse that may make the woman feel dirty if she acts in a certain way in the bedroom. Communication can often be a problem, depending, where shyness and feeling vulnerable may be present.

In some cases some men, by their actions and comments can make a woman feel inadequate compared to a younger woman. A man who can make a woman feel safe, sexy and desirable and is fairly skilled himself in the bedroom, will be smiling on a very regular basis. :)

Nothing personal Spider, just a comment to your post.

spiderman

2nd February 2010, 02:58 PM

No I also agree with some of your points as well Gillian.

Just my own personal experiences drove me to write the post above. My ex is a very very attractive woman with a very very good body and age has done nothing to diminish that....she could put some 20 somethings to shame. I also used to tell her how I fancied her and when we used to go out she would turn many a blokes heads in bars , resteraunts etc...

Yet she didnt like getting undressed in front of me most of the time even though I used to pay compliments regularly and made her feel sexy and desirable.

She had a catholic upbringing which didnt help and her parents didnt discuss sex at all so she was quite sheltered I suppose......I was definitely wrong for her because i am very open and communicative about sex and likes and dislikes in the bedroom.

I suppose she was a little shy too but after a period of time you would think that would disappear between two people who know each other sexually????

Lee

Raymond

2nd February 2010, 05:49 PM

It can take time for some women to lose their inhibitions in the bedroom Spiderman. You did well to try and build her confidence. It took my wife a while to get where she is today as she kind of lived a sheltered life. I am very honoured that she was a virgin, which is how it ought to be. Mainly they will adapt to who you are and you to them. Everyone is different.

I think what the younger women are doing today is irrelevant in a way as the marriage is between you and your spouse. Purity is a great energiser in the bedroom.

Raymond

spiderman

2nd February 2010, 08:41 PM

Raymond it takes two to tango tho mate and if one isnt at the dance you end up with a solo routine

Lee

Raymond

3rd February 2010, 08:23 AM

It is wrong for a husband or wife to defraud their partner. The husband's body belongs to the wife and the wife's body belongs to the husband. There isn't any choice not to have sex as a christian unless you are both consenting to it. If one of them has problems at least they should be aiming to overcome in order to have normal sexual relations.

Raymond

spiderman

3rd February 2010, 09:09 AM

try telling that to my ex mate....no way did she see her body belonging to me.....period !

Raymond

3rd February 2010, 12:31 PM

She obviously wasn't a christian.

Our bodies belong to each other only and that is why adultery or porn is a travesty of this.

Raymond

spiderman

3rd February 2010, 02:42 PM

born and bred catholic Raymond.....go figure

headoverheelsinlove

3rd February 2010, 11:05 PM

I THOUGHT our bodies belonged to each other, and before we married, we had the most fulfilling sex life. As soon as I got my ring, it was as if he shut off. I have tried EVERYTHING, OFFERED everything. No offense to anyone, but I feel like the man, ( seems they are usually the ones with this complaint ). In the last few days, I have started to wonder if I really even want him anymore. When you beg your husband for sex daily for 2 years, it really takes something out of you. I have told him many times how I feel degraded, and like a whore. If the tables turn, and he gets well, and wants to be with me, I'm scared, it might be too late. Maybe some people only want what they can't have????

Raymond

4th February 2010, 12:56 PM

born and bred catholic Raymond.....go figure

Spiderman I was brought up as a Catholic, can sing Latin and do the whole thing but that doesn't make me a christian. There is a difference in wearing a denominational label be it protestant, catholic or whatever and coming into relationship with Christ with all that entails. No offence to your wife, she may be a christian for all I know, but there can be a difference between religion and knowing christ.

From the biblical standpoint our bodies are not sexually our own but belong to our spouses. That is why it is robbery to go with someone else or to do porn etc. Sex certainly affects our bodies and our souls, some even say our spirits as well.

Porn would affect that pure relationship in marriage as we are imbibing in and opening ourselves up to a sexual experience with others whether we realise that or not. It has to affect the marriage bed and my experience shows that it consistently does.

I do know at least two Christian women who were refusers but came to see that it was wrong and turned the whole thing around. When I say turned around I mean really turned around. Can a woman go over the top? I don't think so when it's only towards her husband.

Raymond

Raymond

4th February 2010, 01:09 PM

Head over Heels no doubt he had a sexual drive, and still has, but it seems like it was diverted into porn soon after you were married. He has obviously become addicted.

He will have a massive battle on his hands to get free. I do know about christians who became addicted. They got free but I don't know their full story. They post on a site I go to occasionally. I could let you know what it is if you like, but it's not only about porn. It's about the sexual side of marriage.

Is he a christian? Is he getting christian ministry? I don't see how one can get free without God's help personally speaking as you have to know it is wrong to win through.

I know you are wilting and I believe that in some cases porn can be grounds for divorce, but at least he is trying unlike some others who don't even admit that it is wrong. I hope you find your answers.

Raymond

headoverheelsinlove

8th February 2010, 10:06 PM

How long has it been like this for you? It is like living in prison. My 1st marriage was 12 yrs of unhappiness, and neither one of us wanted each other, but this is SO MUCH WORSE. What we had was great.....til he bought the cow... hahaha

headoverheelsinlove

8th February 2010, 10:13 PM

He admitted it right away, and is in counseling. He has done alot of research of late, and is scared of how much worse it can get. (alot of addicts end up turning to child porn after many years, due to the fact of building a tolerance, just like drug addicts, the need escalates) There is no denial on his part, it is just upsetting that we have been wasting every day fighting over something I didn't know I was up against. He never used THE INTERNET, only LIMEWIRE, was to afraid of the trouble it causes. He has removed limewire from the computer.

Raymond

9th February 2010, 12:42 PM

I don't know what Limewire is Headoverheals but I would have thought that if he still has internet porn is available. At least he is taking action but cutting off the source he used. He is beginning to realise how dangerous it is and hopefully how it is affecting his marriage, especially the intimate part.

His mind will still be bringing him the images for a while yet but at least hopefully he has cut off the source. Hopefully he is learning about the sanctity of marriage and how intimacy if only between a man and his wife and not this menatal adultery.

Raymond

Raymond

9th February 2010, 12:46 PM

I don't know what Limewire is but at least he has cut off the source which can't be bad. It's available on internet as well but he is obviously trying to change his habit and hopefully will not use that.

You seem a bit cynical Headoverheals. Are you not convinced that he is trying to get the victory? A lot of men don't even admit that it is wrong.

Raymond

Raymond

10th February 2010, 01:08 PM

Hi Amber. Why would I heave a big sigh of relief? The site is for you to write what you want.

I see that the problems continue. I am praying and I trust you are as God likes to hear from His children and is an ever present help in time of need.

You are not the only woman I know of in this predicament and I know it goes right against your womanhood. I know women where the husband hasn't touched them for years because they are into pornography. Some of them call themselves christians. I know of others where the husbands have repented and overcame the problem and now have good marriages. Yet others have wanted out and got divorced.

Sometimes I feel that you think the problem is not pornography for some reason but what else can it be? It certainly fits the pattern. If a husband is doing mental adultery then there are going to big problems in the bedroom and therefore the marriage. Sex is also in the context of relationship. Take it outside of that and it can become monstrous. A husband can have many faults, but this one goes right to the heart of the marriage.

I see your husband as a hypocrite I'm afraid, which means he has a false show of virtue. He can find repentance. It is possible. From what I am hearing however he doesn't seem to be anywhere near it. How long do you hang on? As I said before I believe pornography can be grounds for divorce personally speaking. I don't see why you have to endure this facade forever.

Whatever you do you have to do it because you believe it is right. I would send the letter and see what his response is. Do you still mean the letter or do you have a fresh letter? It was a long time ago now.

God bless for now

Raymond

spiderman

10th February 2010, 03:26 PM

Amber he is the scumbag...whether he is OCD/bipolar or not he has no right to call you names or villify you in front of a guest. He is a bully and you need to get away from him asap.

Re the sexual side...I cannot understand a man who does not want a loving sexual relationship with his wife....im sorry I dont get it ? You are coming into your sexual prime and guess what its all going to go to waste with him...porn is an addiction..hell I like looking at porn and I have a high sex drive but I use it as a suppliment to sex NOT as a replacement ! (well at the moment it is all I have as I am single..lol).

Lee

Raymond

10th February 2010, 06:34 PM

I hope you can ignore the last part of that Amber if you know what I mean. Even a little amount will affect the relationship.

This is really awful Amber. You are being brow beaten as well it seems. Did he come into the marriage like this, as a porn addict I mean? I have noticed that control and mental cruelty often follow porn. The de-humanising of it seems to flow over it seems. How much more of this can you take? A separation might get the point across. I honestly cannot see a marriage being mended while the husband is using porn to meet his sexual needs. Did you watch the DVD Fireproof. It has some good points although it might make you frustrated because your husband isn't repenting.

Are you getting fellowship with other christians Amber? It will help your faith and help you to keep afloat. Do you actually belong to a fellowship where the church can get behind you on this? I am assuming you are a christian who experiences the love of Christ daily. Please say if you are not there yet. It is important to be able to draw on God's strength when you need it. Religion doesn't help. It's Christ we need. If you go to a fellowship does your husband go with you?

It seems you are being hammered into the ground by your husband and being treated as subhuman. The opposite of what the scriptures encourage a husband to be.

Are you ready to send the letter? I don't think he will be able to change without dealing with the porn and one needs a lot of humility to do that. Have you made up your mind what will happen if it is rejected? You have to really be ready for both eventualities. If he accepts it or rejects it. I would say get it firmly in your mind what your response will be. If you cannot do that at least work towards it afterwards. Everyone is different. I don't want to force it, but you probably have some idea in your head what you will do.

Prayer will be your most powerful tool Amber. As you are his child God will hear all the cries you offer to Him. He will answer. Sometimes in ways you could not have imagined. You must do the practical as well of course.

God bless you Amber. We will pray. Try and build up the self esteem which he appears to be tearing down. You are accepted in the beloved. Never forget that.

Raymond

Raymond

11th February 2010, 08:24 AM

I don't know how you can be with him in it because it won't be just the two of you it will be you and all those other porn women in his head. It does affect it honestly.

Raymond

jellybean28

15th February 2010, 02:46 PM

Oh Amber

I am really worried for you, your husband is out of control and no-one deserves to be treated like this. The fact that he is threatening your dogs with harm is caus for concern, be careful Amber.

If you can get proof get it, also if you have a family member you can trust and talk to tell them.
If need be write things down and date them, getting someone you can trust to look after what you have written and any other proof you may have, don't keep it in the house for him to find

Be careful Amber, and think carefully before sending him your letter, this may just set him off.

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers Amber, try and post when you can. I hope I haven't scared you Amber, but from what you've posted I am worried for you.

Warm safe hugz JB xxxxx

Raymond

16th February 2010, 08:25 AM

Amber says he isn't physically violent Jellybean just mentally cruel.

Raymond

jellybean28

16th February 2010, 01:31 PM

Raymond, I went back over some of Ambers posts, and found one where she was talking about her husband making her perform oral sex on him, yet not satisfying her in return, also it seems that he would rather her let her son cry while she keeps her husband happy, the way that I read that post is that he is very controling, yes emotionally abusive (the lowest for of abuse leaves no physical marks but terrible scars which cannot be seen).

After reading about his threats to the dogs, I feel that it may be only a matter of time before he could become violent, especially if he feels he is losing control over Amber. It could become worse.

I hope I'm wrong with what I feel maybe happening, only time will tell. In the meantime I will still keep Amber in my thoughts and send her positive vibes and hugs.

Raymond

17th February 2010, 12:42 PM

I agree with what you are saying Jellybean. He has not been directly violent yet though. It is always possible but I think Amber is reasonably confident that he is not directly violent.

Raymond

Raymond

22nd February 2010, 05:29 PM

You have to choose the time Amber.

I don't understand why he won't give up the porn and work on relating to you. You should be the most important peson in his life. He obviously has dificulty in relating. Maybe you letter may help him understand what is going on.

Raymond

Raymond

24th February 2010, 07:56 PM

Amber, I see extreme manipulation there in his response, especially putting the burden on you that he will kill your advisers. Where one hoped for repentance we see an attack on your advisers. There is also a manipulation of the word of God for his own benefit regarding forgiveness.

On the subject of forgiveness. Forgiveness does not necessarily restore relationship where there is no repentance and no prospect of change. If you said in three days time that you forgive him one cannot assume that relationship is restored if he is going to do nothing about the cruelty and the porn and all the other stuff. It's the same as christ dying to forgive the sins of the world. No forgiveness can be received without repentance. That is not what we are seeing here I'm afraid. His response is very vague to say the least.

I sense he is wanting to tie you up with words and guilt rather than humbling himself and repenting. It is nice that you had a good day out ski-ing but the underlying situation seems unchanged from where I stand. You don't want to be bribed if the basic problems are not being changed.

You gave it your best shot. I don't see how it is going to work without his sincere repentance and a decision to change for the sake of your marriage.

I pray you find your answers. His initial response is disappointing.

Raymond

Raymond

25th February 2010, 08:04 AM

Okay he should be changing for conscience sake but maybe he is not strong enough without knowing you are committed to the marriage. This is the part that I said you had to be prepared to do. Remember? Maybe he needs the encouragement of you working with him to help him overcome?

If that is the case forgiveness would be logical to me.

Raymond

Raymond

25th February 2010, 07:09 PM

You have to work out what these pecks mean Amber. If they aren't love then maybe they mean something else. Possibly manipulation? Remember love wants the best for the other and never forces itself. So there is a red light there. The main thing is to keep your head. You don't have to treat as love what isn't love. As his wife you will know the difference.

If he is genuine there will be fruit. From what you are saying he is willing to work on the things you brought up so long as you are committed to the marriage, so you need more than these pecks from him. You neeed action about the cruelty and about the porn and the other things you would have brought up.

Your husband seems very weak and insecure to me which wasn't apparent to me in your first posts. Sometimes I feel you are capable of being manipulated because of sex. Tell me if I am wrong. Is that the trump card up his sleeve to get his way? Are the pecks to do with this? It is your right to have sex and it should never be used as manipulation although I think even this has been muddied by porn.

Sorry to be so blunt Amber. I am reading between the lines of things you have said. And if I am right it is something you have to be aware of as everything could go out of the window if that is the case. You have thrown down the challenge and intimated you have had enough, implying you will leave if he doesn't sort things. Don't be sabotaged now.

Do you have anough strength to have another try on the basis of his promises to put things right? If he says he wants to change and you say you can't forgive and are not committed to the marriage then that doesn't leave the marriage anywhere. My thought is that if you have laid everything out for him in the letter then the invitation is there for him to change and for you to remain committed while he is trying. Am I making any sense?

Raymond

Raymond

26th February 2010, 05:18 PM

I hope you are feeling that Amber and that it is not something I am putting on you. I know you have given him a chance before and he has failed, but your letter was quite powerful and to back that up you need to let him have a chance to get it. If he doesn't get it in spite of this then you have to do what you have to do. Make it be a real chance though however difficult you find it. Try and encourage when he gets it right as that is quite powerful from a woman to a man. I really hope something comes out of this and am praying to that end.

Raymond

Raymond

27th February 2010, 08:46 AM

Everything leads to giving it another shot Amber. If you were to end the marriage now would you have the peace you will have if you seriously gave it another chance in view of his response to the letter? This is what you were dreading before. The fact that he would respond and that you were not up to trying again. I said then, if I remember rightly, that writing the letter goes with giving him another chance, otherwise you might just as well have ended it now without saying anything.

I think you have to try even if it is just the one more time. It will be clear to you up the road if he is going to stay faithful or not, particularly in this mental adultery stuff. How any marriage can prosper with that going on I don't know. I know there are other issues as well, but scripturally sexual immorality is a grounds for divorce. Personally I include certain stages of pornography in that, but you have to make your own judgement on that.

I am very aware how hard it is for you Amber. You said that God gave you the strength to write the letter and as I said that goes with another chance. He will respond or not but it has to be a real chance with commitment and forgiveness of the past from you.

We are with you in this Amber as are your other counsellors you have mentioned. Share with those in your church as well so that they can pray also.

The scripture says in the multitude of counsellors purposes are established so you are on good grounds. Nobody wants you to suffer needlessly and lock you into something that is going nowhere but I think what you have decided to do is the right thing and I pray that God strengthens you in it.

God bless for now

Raymond

Raymond

1st March 2010, 11:01 AM

I have read your posts yesterday Amber and prayed for you.

Basically you seem annoyed at his selfish behaviour and there seems to be sexual problems as he doesn't consider your needs as husbands should. Sex should be a joint experience and not as onesided as it appears to be from what you have said. I think some of this may be coming from the porn which feeds lust instead of the sex being part of the relationship you have together.

However I can't speak to him on here only you. I think it's going to be a long haul with him but I think you can do it with God's strength.

What I got when I prayed is that you should start from scratch and encourage any good you see. I know this isn't easy thing as it is much easier to reproach or criticise. Lets face it something drastic needs to happen here and it has to start with you. You are not going to be able to do it in your own strength but if you can find ways to start it I think you could turn things around long term. I'm not talking about flattery that won't help him or you at all. I'm talking about encouraging the good so that it grows. There must be something good in him I would think otherwise you would not have married him. I believe a woman has a power to work at it even when the man doesn't and can actually change a man's behaviour not by cticism but by encouragment. While you have got him committed you want to try and create some good from it. If he is taking baby steps encourage him. You have a power in your tongue to create good and change him so long as he is faithful to you as best he can be. Don't underestimate the power you have as a woman to that no matter how small it starts from.

I know this is not what you wanted to hear but unless something good happens here nothing is going to change. You can do that by choosing to. I know you feel like slapping him round the head but that will not change anything. If you are going to give it a go then you are going to have to give it a go.

Have a think about it. We are talking about drastic measures here. I think a seperation would only procrastinate matters.

Raymond

Raymond

1st March 2010, 05:48 PM

Doesn't sound too bad to me Amber. Hopefully you can move forward. Another chance does mean forgiveness even though you find it hard. We need forgiveness all the time with God but that means we forgive others who have hurt us. It doesn't mean we can't sort things out. Marriage can't flourish without forgiveness. That is part of the package.

He has read your letter and has thanked you for forgiving him. That can't be bad. It doesn't sound like someone who wants to carry on doing bad things. If he did he wouldn't worry about your forgiveness. So take it as a positive and try and encourage him when he gets it right. You could thank him for trying to be considerate about the movie? Your encouragement will go a long way.

You are very blessed to have ski-ing so near. I have to fly to the Alps to do that.

Raymond

Raymond

6th April 2010, 01:42 PM

Hi Amber. Nice to hear from you again. I don't really know what to say here, but you seem to have given it a try following the letter. I can see that it did not have the full desired response and you are still unhappy in your marriage it seems. I am beginning to wonder if he is even able to respond. The way he shrugs off responsibility for doing something about it himself is quite telling. The scripture love your wives as your own bodies should be ample motivation.

You have to do what you have peace about Amber. You say you have prayed about it with your friends and you have really tried it seems. If you really have God's peace as well about it I am not going to stand in the way. It is very sad and it does appear that the marriage is failing. While I am not one to encourage divorce it could be a bigger crime to force you to be together in a legalistic way. I was hoping the letter would produce more of a response.

The red light for me has always been the persistent pornography as I see that as mental adultery affecting the most intimate part of a marriage. That says an awful lot to me. In many of these cases control and insensitivity seem to accompany it. That is just a personal view of course.

I would say a lack of love is killing the marriage. Yes commitment is very important also but pornography does show a lack of it. Commitment is more than not divorcing. It means a commitment to love as well, but marriages do fail when this is only onesided. I view you here as the committed one, or at least you were the committed one, but have perceived and felt a lack of commitment and love on the other side plus some problems that could have been sorted if there was that motivation.

I don't know what else you can do Amber if he is not going to have his own motivation to sort himself. Quite clearly the message has not reached him it seems.

Thank you for updating me Amber. I am glad you have been praying about it. You seem to be wanting God's best. Sometimes marriages do not work even with the best will in the world on one side. Well done for trying.

Raymond

Raymond

10th April 2010, 04:40 PM

I think he was only half in the marriage long before you came to this Amber. A real marriage takes total commitment.

Let us know how it goes and what you feel about it from time to time. What do your christian friends feel about it?

Raymond

Raymond

17th April 2010, 08:18 PM

Hi Amber. I see that you still have the resolve and peace about seperating.

That he now wants to serve God in the ministry makes no sense to me at all. I can't see that God would call him into ministry judging by the what you have told me about him. Much better to have dedicated himself to his marriage and you first.

I can't see how your marriage is salvagable without a miracle. You have certainly given it your best shot it seems. What I never understood to be honest is why you never seemed upset with the porn. That has got mental adultery written all over it in my book. If he could have worked on that I would have seen a bit more hope.

I was at a healing retreat this lat week and there were a few men that came forward for deliverance from porn addiction. It is not compatible with marriage in the slightest.

Anyway thank you for updating me. I really hope you find a better life as you get more and more free in yourself.

God bless

Raymond

Raymond

19th April 2010, 10:35 AM

Thank goodnes for that Amber. Sorry for misunderstanding. I was a bit worried for a minute. Your friend means well. It is a natural christian response to try and save a marriage, but it cannot always be done as it takes two to work on it.

One of the affects of porn is for the woman to feel as you did, with the low esteem and feeling of rejection etc. but it is a lie from the pit. You are a daughter of the king and should live as such. The porn goes directly against marital intimacy. Some class porn as a hatred of women as it is using them as objects without relationship. It is one of the symptoms of misogyny in men. This doesn't reflect on you at all but rather on him. You have been abused and crushed by by him in this and need to rebuild your self esteem which you are doing it seems. Basically that comes from believing who God says we are and is re-inforced by good relationships. I realise now that you were too much under it to comment and maybe you should have confronted him right at the start.

As it is you sound like a new person already Amber and have done all you can in the situation you were in. The whole thing had just become too much for you it seems, which is understandable. When you choose again choose with your head as well as your heart.

Raymond

Baroness

23rd May 2011, 03:14 AM

I'm comforted to see that i'm not the only one going through this. For the first six years our sex life was great, he's ten years older than me and I was amazed. When we moved into our first apartment in 2008 I was happy because i'd waited to be with him and then after about a year or so, 3 years ago, he stopped wanting sex. In fact he stopped sleeping in the same bad, saying it was his snoring and he did keep me awake but after a few years that excuse doesn't work anymore. He still comes to bed occassionaly but hasn't had an orgasm that I know of. He must have erectyle disfunction because he can't stay hard and so now he doesn't even bother. He won't talk about it. I know that he is 10 years older than me and used to drink alot in bars in his past but I can't believe this is happening to me.
I am a very attractive woman and have a sexy body. I'm not bragging, just trying to give you all the facts and men are attracted to me, even his friends but he acts like i'm not even in the room. He watches tv and one time I caught him in the front room doing you know what and he denied it, told me he was just scatching but I know what I saw. We get along very well and he tells me he loves me but this is very frustrating and now I have a lot of resentment. Its clear that he loves me and doesn't want anyone else and I know him better than anyone and yet he won't talk to me about this.
He acts like everything is fine. He will sleep with me but lately just goes to sleep. He will not go to the doctor for help and won't even discuss it. We have a small apartment and I would know if he was watching porn. One time I went in there and cable porn was on which isn't actual porn but he said he said just switching channels and I didn't believe him and got really upset so he hasn't done that again and I know because I can hear the tv clearly and if he lowers it I would also know because i've gone in there. I got so upset he told me the next day he had a sore or something in that area and that is why and he seemed concerned that I believe him, that it wasn't that he didn't want me.
I put on sexy nighties like I always have and sometimes he will come to bed with me but when he can't finish he just says he's tired. We used to have sex once a week and in the morning and now nothing. I don't want to spend the rest of my life like this. There are other men who are attracted to me but i'm attracted to him and don't really want anyone else. I lost my job so we are under some stress but i've never known him in all these years to have a sexual problem until recently. I've thought of leaving him several times but I really do love him.
Once in awhile I still see that passionate man but its less and less now. I don't know how he can think this is okay with me. He is a wonderful man and hasn't had it easy with relationships and I have tried to show him that I love him and I am very patient and understanding but at what point am I supposed to think of myself? I've tried to adjust to this and to just accept it because if its his age, it isn't his fault, but that isn't going to happen. I just can't accept not ever making love with him or wait for months for it to happen.
I dress appealingly always and he doesn't seem to notice. I wonder if he will notice when I walk out that door!:mad:

chosen

23rd May 2011, 04:00 AM

baroness. How old is he?
From what you said it may be a medical issue, but I am not sure that you can put it down to the age gap, as 10 years isnt that big. Men in their 70s and even 80's, father children. Diabetes for example, can caused problems with getting/maintaining an erection and there is a simple urine test for that.
Its hard to say about the masturbation, whether the fact that he does that is the reason that he isnt interested in sex with you, or whether he has found that masturbating is the only way that he can orgasm. Whichever way, he does need to get checked up by a doctor, and I hope that he will agree to go and have some simple tests.If left undisgnosed, diabetes for example, can be dangerous anyway. so its worth getting checked for his own safety.
It does seem odd that he was so virile one minute and then seemed to stop fairly suddenly, unless there is a medical reason.

If you are married, then looking elsewhere for sex and thinking of being unfaithful surely isnt right? It wont help and will just hurt you and him and others as well.

Just out of interest, what is the difference between cable porn and 'actual' porn? If he is watching porn and'or masturbating on a regular basis, that would account for his lack of interest for normal sex. It does make it harder for men to get aroused by normal healthy means over time..Thats why its so damaging.

Baroness

23rd May 2011, 04:38 AM

It isn't that I would be unfaithful, I would leave him and find someone who knows i'm alive. I do think its a physical problem but the fact that he won't talk to me about it doesn't help and he won't go to the doctor to seek help. He's been to the doctor a couple of months ago and if he mentioned it to him, I don't know about it. He's a very proud man but am I supposed to just live with this? He's 65 and I don't appreciate him thinking that I will just go along with this. However, I have just gone along with it.
I am not a domineering person and I don't make demands, I speak in a sweet tone because that is my nature. He has seen me mad however but we try to avoid getting mad at each other. What's their to get mad at? We only talk about his volunteer work, nothing on a personal level. The difference between cable porn is that they don't actually show the actual act, the women are naked and so are the men but there are no closeups of the actual deed. Porn that you can order from your cable co. is much more explicit.
He actually goes to bed before cable porn even comes on which is later at night and he's usually alseep by ten at the latest. He's a volunteer up and a canyon park and works physically on the trails so he's tired when he comes home but he only does that 3 times a week and on the weekends he mans the kiosk until noon, directing visitors.. He's always home by noon and sometimes I think that his volunteer work is the only thing he cares about. I do know he believes in God and meditates and was a catholic and I come from a penicostal background and was a ministers daughter.
Nothing has prepared me for this and because adultry goes against the bible is the only reason I haven't seriously thought about it. I could leave him but I hate to do that.

chosen

23rd May 2011, 05:39 AM

baroness
Showing men and women naked is still serious porn, so if he is watching some of that it will be affecting him. At 65 men are slowing down sexually. You must be my age(55). I guess this a second marriage for you guys? We are in our second marriage also.We have been married 6years this year.
Mens sexual peak is apparently in their early 20's, and women is in their 40's and 50's so its not surprising that there is a difference I guess.

I believe that where I live in the uK you can have a test for diabetes at the pharmacy. Could he do that there?Then he wont even have to go to the doctors.Men of his age do need regular check for such things as this,and high blood pressure etc, which may help to explain the lack of interest in sex.

I am so glad that you have a Christian faith. Do you go to church or have some good close female Christian friends who you can confide in and who can pray for you? As a believer I really dont think that lack of sex is grounds for divorce, and as you say, adultery is serious stuff. It does seem so drastic to think of leaving him after such a short time and at the ages you are. Even if you did, what guarantee will you have that you will meet another man who wants to marry you or who wants lots of sex at that sort of age? You may end up in a worse situation. Also marriage is a serous covenant that is for better or worse surely?

Raymond

23rd May 2011, 09:23 AM

Who knows what the problem is. The fact that he is watching porn does show that he is interested in sex. However this is a form of mental adultery, which Chosen has touched on, and has the opposite affect to having a good sex life. How can God bless this. It is a diversion of the normal sex drive.

One problem may be performance pressure. The porn can have an affect of weakening his performance while at the same time the pressure to perform can be counter productive.

Something that may help is kegal excercises. These help men and women apparently. This is basically excercises using the pelvic floor muscles. It's the same muscles used when you are stopping yourself from weeing. You squeeze the muscle and try and hold it for about seven seconds. Like all muscles this strengthens with use and can have a big affect on ED. This together with relaxing more mentally during sex can have a bid affect. Very unromantic but it does work and it is something definite to do.

Baroness

23rd May 2011, 06:13 PM

Maybe I gave you the impression that he watches porn on a regular basis but that isn't true. When he saw how upset I got he stopped immediately and as i've said, i've checked this out. He doesn't have diabetes, he had a physical recently but was probably too embarrassed to admit to the doctor that he's having performance issues. Whether he is satisfying himself or not I can't know for sure, but I think perhaps he is. He at least does come to bed and try to make love even though he doesn't last too long. I think this is hard for him because it is naturally hard for a man to admit this to himself.
After hearing your response and going on line and reading about it I actually feel better about it this morning and I had a long talk with God and first thing this morning gabby gave me a hug and my love for him just was brought home to me. I don't go to church regularly and this I am going to correct. I have asked God to help me and us and he is the only one who can. I have decided to stay with him and if the time comes when we don't even attempt to make love I will suggest he go to the doctor and get some help. He won't like it but he needs to know that i'm not okay with this.
He is in great shape for his age and like I said he volunteers up at the canyon and paints houses here and there. I need to focus more on my relationship with God and less on wanting a man to make me happy because happiness has to come from within and the answer is God, not a man. I have the choice whether to be happy or not and I have chosen to be happy and I asked God for help in this and I already feel better. I knew what he was like when I met him and its just the change in our relationship that has been so hard on me and along with that I have no money coming in and its a lot to deal with.
I don't think the answer is being angry and resentful, I think I should be happy and supportive around him even though the relationship isn't what I think it should be. I've tried to think about his point of view and maybe if I was happy and not frowning and spending so much time in my room, he would feel comfortable enough to share how he feels. I know how to handle men and you can't force them to do anything, you have to let them come to you on their own.
Getting mad at them isn't going to help. God says in the bible that a soft answer turns away wrath and also in proverbs it says if you delight yourself in the Lord, he will give you the desires of your heart. I believe in the bible and in God and always have since I was a child and I know that God is the only one who doesn't let you down. It's hard to know what God wants you to do sometimes but since I still love gabby I feel I have to stay with him and you are right. Even though men find me attractive that doesn't mean I would find one who would love me like this man and one who would be faithful.
I am not getting any younger but I look younger than 55 and I don't want to feel like i've wasted all these years. I always thought God brought us together for a reason and it was to show this man that there is a good woman who will love him no matter what so I can't very well leave him just because he's having this problem. I know he loves me, he tells me all the time and I still love him. I think i've been concentrating too much on him being what I want and not getting closer to God.
My first step will be to go to church. I found one here recently on Easter and my mom and son went with me and I really liked the church and so I plan on going this sunday. I feel kind of foolish now for saying I would leave him because of this. We give each other space and don't tell each other what to do and this is important to me. He's a difficult man sometimes but I know how to deal with him. I just resented him satisfying himself (or not) when I am right here.
He does not go to church with me because sunday morning he is up at the canyon but I can't let that stop me from being close to God. I do pray every day and read my bible once in awhile but I need more of God in my life and I will trust him to help me and answer this problem. If it goes on and my love dies then I will take steps to end this relationship and I trust God to show me what direction to take. I don't feel like I should leave him as long as I love him and i'm going to concentrate on the good in our relationship instead of focusing on the bad.
If he feels how much I love him and I show affection instead of resentment then I feel he will feel comfortable enough to address this problem. He won't admit he has a problem and if I bring up sex he changes the subject and makes excuses and says everything is fine. I asked God to show him that it is not fine. It has helped to read your comments. He is no longer watching porn. He is computer illeterate so that was the only place he was watching it and then he wouldn't just watch it but switch back and forth to a regular movie.
I accidentally taped the night I caught him watching it. I was taping a movie and he changed the channel and he would be on the porn for a minute or two and then go back to the movie. But when I walked in it was on the tv so I flipped out and asked him how could he watch other women when I was right in the next room? He denied watching it and said he was just flipping the channels but when I walked in he was definitely watching it and so I was very hurt. Since then he hasn't watched it, i'm pretty sure anyway because as I said he doesn't stay up that late and that channel moved the adult movies to later at night.
I dont like it but its in the past as far as i'm concerned. I can't do anything about him satisfying himself, if that's what he's doing and that upsets me. He acted very defensive when I accused him of this but I know what I know and I don't want to keep monitoring this situation because I just get upset. If it continues and I feel he is doing that instead of being with me we will have a problem. I dont even know if he can obtain his goal even by himself.
It would be better if he could talk about it but I think he has too much pride to admit this even to himself. He's under a lot of stress right now too because he's paying all the bills but he seems to have a good attitude about it and assures me that everything will be okay. This man has treated me better than any man before and so I feel I must stay with him and try to work this out. I have been married twice before and he has been married once before and his marriage ended badly. So did mine but I don't dwell on it, I just moved on and don't hold a grudge. My ex also treated me like I didn't matter and he was lazy and in the end cheated on me so that was that.
At least now I can trust this man but even though I know that I have still considered him having an affair to be the reason he wasn't interested. I believed that when this first started but then he told me out of the blue one day that he had never been with another woman since the first day he met me and this included when I left him for 8 months back in 2004. He was really closed up then and was going thru problems because of his back and he couldn't work anymore.
He has opened quite a bit compared to the way he used to be and so I thank you for your replies and it helps to talk about this with you. It also helped to hear the other women having the same problem. I can't imagine going without sex for 20 years!

chosen

23rd May 2011, 08:02 PM

baroness. It sounds as if you have made some good and godly decisions and that you are on the right path. He sounds like a good man, and that is precious, sex or no sex.

Going to church and becoming a member of a church family is a very helpful thing. I have some good close female Christian friends and they are so lovely and caring. You are also right about getting close to God. In the end, He is the only one who can fill that empty place. As human beings, we all have weaknesses, and will always let others down, but He never will.

Just one more thing, try to accept your husband as he is and not as you want him to be. We all need to be loved and accepted as we are.Its so hard to feel we are a dissappointment to our spouse.
After all of your marriage breakups, the last thing either of you need is another one.

Raymond

23rd May 2011, 08:21 PM

God does have a way of working out our marriage problems if we truly submit to Him and bring Him into it Baroness. It's his invention so He knows the answers. It's great what you have written. I think you have a good attitude.

Baroness

23rd May 2011, 09:04 PM

Thank you both for your support. I do want to tell you that even though I have felt this way I didn't show it to him. I always supported him and didn't pressure him in any way. I wanted to be mad at him and to show him it wasn't okay but I never told him that and no matter how much I wanted him to know that I was upset when I woke in the morning and he smiled and said good morning I couldn't be mad at him, no matter how hard I tried.
I have never tried to change him or any other man. When my friends didn't approve of our relationship I told them that he can just be himself. It wasn't until the lack of sex that I started feeling resentful and frustrated. He has no idea I was upset because of this. I felt that it would do no good to tell him because he would either be resentful or act like there was no problem and I was being ridiculous, which he has done on a few occassions. The problem is i'm very open and honest and believe in talking things out and so I have a problem with someone who is not like that so I started being very unhappy and frustrated.
But I can't listen to my friends because they don't really know him and I do and I know this is worth fighting for. I feel God does direct me and i'm getting the feeling that he doesn't want me to leave him at this point. Maybe God sees that he still needs me in some way or maybe that I need him. This morning when I was talking to God I was remembering when I first met him and how happy I was that I found someone who loved me so much and I was beyond happy, I felt God had answered my prayer.
Maybe it would be better if I didn't love him and I could find someone more like me but I love him and I never thought love lasted because it hadn't in previous marriages and relationship but here I am after nine years and I still love him. He says God brought us together and that's why it works. I used to believe that but have doubted it lately. Maybe I do have feelings from the past that are surfacing now. I remember that my ex husband acted like it didn't matter if I were with him or not and maybe I'm afraid gabby feels that way.
I think I do matter and I also know he is surprised that we are still together. I must say that the reason we are is mainly due to my christian upbringing and being patient and kind to him and putting up with a lot. I can't see a woman who isn't a christian putting up with this for long. I know some women stay with men because they are afraid to be alone but I don't feel that way. When I was alone it was great because I didn't have a man hurting me and I know that I could find someone else but I have to be concerned about God's will for me.
If he wants me to stay with him then I have to do what he wants because things go horribly if you step out of God's will. So this morning I prayed for God's willl and not my own and just left it to him. No couple can get along perfectly all the time and there are problems and issues that come up. I never used to be critical or wanted him to change until this sex thing came up. I know that I deserve happiness and don't deserve what is happening but I have to think about how he feels as well and this must be difficult. We'll see how it goes but I have a calmness now that I know is from God and the holy spirit.
I've been a christian for many years and I should have remembered that God is always the answer. I did stray for a few years but I always loved God and I am not looking for the relationship I used to have with God, I am looking for a better relationship, a closer walk with him. I thank you so much for taking the time to hash this out with me. It has helped me so much to see things more clearly. God bless both of you very much and anyone else who may have commented on my behalf. I feel as though a heavy burden has been lifted.
The battle is not yet won but at least I have the armor of God to fight it with. Thanks.

Raymond

24th May 2011, 12:57 PM

If you manage to do what you say you will Baroness that cannot be bad.

I don't think God would ever counsel you to leave a husband. He has given His word in these things as well.

I am glad he is not into porn but you seem to have a question about private mb. If this is happening it can almost be as bad as porn as it can be a diversion of the normal sex drive as it is usually accompanied by fantasy which can be quite powerful in a man. They are capable of creating their own world in this and that is why it is wrong, especially within marriage. Some go into marriage already established in this habit and it is defrauding the wife if it is not dealt with. All sexual desire should only be towards our wives, otherwise it is mental adultery.

Baroness

25th May 2011, 05:07 AM

I don't know what to do about it. I never see him do it and he won't admit it so what am I supposed to do? We are getting along okay but I have no control over what he does when he's alone. I thought I would give it the month of June and if he doesn't make an attempt to be with me I have decided to ask him if this is the way its going to be from now on. I don't want to keep thinking about this or trying to catch him in the act. I have to set this time limit because something has to be done. I know he's been in a lot of pain over the past few weeks because of an absessed tooth and now he's getting better.
All I can do is the best I can. I was reading over my diary, i've kept one for many years and I see that things are much better between us that last year and before that. I'm trying not to dwell on this but its almost impossible. Finanacially speaking we are going through a tough time but he has a good attitude about it but I know its on his mind. It seems as though we've become closer in the last couple of days but I can't keep suspecting him of doing something that I can't prove. I just don't understand this at all.
I was reading that last October when we were going through this same thing he came to bed and we made love three times in one night and I was so happy but then it was back to the way it was. We've gone to bed since then but I have been so tired because it was so late that I just wanted to go to sleep and the very last time, a few weeks ago we slept together and held each other but he was the one who was tired and said he loved me and he would always love me.
I asked him then if he was still attracted to me and he said yes, he's never been attracted to anyone else. We'll just see how it goes and then if its still like this by the end of June i'm going to have to ask him about it. I've asked before and he just says everything is fine and acts like i'm being ridiculous. Things seem to be going better and I don't want to get all hung up on the sex thing but that's what two people in love do. Or they should want to. This has been going on for a long time, or I should say coming on for a long time but he still tries every once in awhile. If you could know how he used to be.
He never had a problem and was quite amazing for his age and then this started happening. I am a voluptous woman and very pretty and I havn't gained a lot of weight or anything so I don't think that is the problem but he just doesn't seem to notice when I wear something sexy but we have this kind of arrangement that when I come into the room with a sexy nightie on he knows that I want to make love to him. It always worked in the past but I notice that it doesn't always work now because he gets tired and when this occurs we do stay up very late listening to music and talking.
He's even apologized for being to tired in the morning and i'm always understanding because i've gotten tired too. My back has been hurting and the doctor told me today that I am on temporary disability for three months. There's a lot going on but that shouldn't change us being together. I feel neglected and unnoticed and I don't like that feeling. I have asked God to help me and to deal with him. Its hard to not take this personal. But I have been happier because I decided not to be angry or resentful and I tried not to think about it but of course eventually I always do.
Maybe there are no answers. Maybe love and kindness and patience is the only answer or maybe not.

Raymond

25th May 2011, 08:25 AM

There are always answers Baroness. You musn't lose your faith. That is more important than anything. Your hope in God will protect your mind.

Sounds like you have a good relationship and that must not be damaged either.

The best way out of these things is close discussion. It means you expressing yourself but also listening to how he feels. That is something to pray about. You'd be surprised what can come out of frank discussion. There may be legitimate reasons for his behaviour. You named one, tiredness. That can be a big libido killer. There may be other things.

With regard to solo mb that was something you mentioned originally. If there is no proof it is safer not to say anything. It may be all in your head maybe. If you are suspicious you can keep your antenna up. If it is happening you will know eventually. Until then you must believe the best of him

Baroness

27th May 2011, 01:07 AM

He won't discuss this. I have tried and he shut down. I read my bible and prayed yesterday morning and I felt a burden liften and inner peace. I don't really want this relationship to end. I get frustrated with him and because I can't talk to him its really hard. I've heard that men don't like drama or conflict. I'm doing better than I was. I'm treating him well like I always do and try not to hold this against him. I poured out my heart to God and asked him to deal with him and to help me. I also asked him to take the love away if it wasn't his will, but I still love him and don't want to give up on him.
As I said, I will give it some time but I don't think this is what God had in mind when he put us together. Perhaps he is stressed but this has been going on for a long time, but he has tried, but not lately. I understand that he's been in a lot of pain. We get along pretty good now and I have to train my mind not to always think about this and to concentrate on the good in him. I trust God, that I do know and I know he will show me what to do and give me wisdom. I usually know exactly what to do where men are concerned but not this time.
It's better to do nothing than to be hasty and do the wrong thing. I can't really talk to anyone about this. My best friend hasn't had a man in 20 years and my mother is wonderful and she prays with me but she doesn't understand how I feel totally, we are two different kinds of women. I get a knot in my stomach when I think he's in there doing that but I don't know for sure. Suspicion without facts is a hard thing. I'm not monitoring this situation anymore. Whatever he does he will do. I trust God to answer this but I will attempt to put on something sexy and try again but I will wait until his tooth problems are better.
I just keep thinking I shouldn't have to go through all this, i've never had this problem with men. However; I do know my self worth and so I no longer think its me. He's just having a problem and has had it for awhile and I have to be patient and I have been. In a months time I still think its a good idea to say something about it if nothing is happening between us. And even if the worst happens, and nothing has changed, I still can't leave him as long as I love him.
This is not grounds for a divorce and yet i'm not willing to spend the rest of my life like this. I'm not getting any younger you know and this year I will turn 56. I trust in God to work this out but if this isn't better at all a year from now then I will have to rethink this. Usually when a man has this problem is doesn't go away so i'm probably fooking myself that it will get better. He expects me to just accept it and he won't go to the doctor to get help and he won't discuss it either.
I will wait for God to direct me in this but if this continues I know that my feelings will change. I don't think you can have a close relationship without intimacy. We do have some intimacy but you know what i'm talking about. Whenever i've questioned him about being romantic he just says this is the way he is. Sometimes I think he is only concerned with himself and doesn't care what I feel. He knows this must upset me and I don't know what he can be thinking.
There are times when I know he's been afraid of me leaving him because of it because thats when he's made an effort. I feel like and idiot for staying and putting up with this when I know another woman wouldn't. For some reason God has given me the wisdom and love to deal with this man but I do have needs too. Anyway, I will do the best I can. I'm just afraid we are going to grow so far apart that we won't love each other anyone and we'll go our seperate ways.

Raymond

27th May 2011, 08:45 AM

It is a problem for you Baroness but not grounds for divorce. I don't say that in a legalistic way but if you are married I don't think God would take your love away as that is fundemental to a marriage and surely is His will.

It is not as though he has never had sex with you so what has gone wrong? It would be very wrong for him to satisfy himself and defraud you but we are not sure about this. I think extreme pornography can be grounds for divorce in certain instances where there is no repentance as it is really mental adultery on a large scale but he is not into this as you have explained.

I think your own counsel is very wise in that you are bringing it to God who is a prayer answering God.

I am thinking in my mind if there would be others ways to jump start the sex. Doing other sexual things and not direct piv sex in the hope of cultivating it as this may be too much for him to start with. I don't know maybe you should find out some things that he might like and not think piv for a while. Just a thought.

chosen

27th May 2011, 08:54 AM

Baroness
No matter what the problem in a marriage it isnt Gods will for a marriage to end unless there is cheating or sometimes serious abuse. God will never answer a prayer to take love away from one spouse for another, but he will answer prayers that enable you to love him DESPITE this. Even if you did stop loving him because of this, where does God say we can get divorced because we no longer FEEL that we love our spouse? It isnt there. Marriage is a life long committment unless one spouse committs serious sexual sin.

God says that the husband is to love his wife, no mention of feelings. He says that the wife is to respect her husband, no mention of feelings. You have made a committment for better or worse. What if he had an accident and was in a wheelchair and could no longer have sex? Would you leave him and try to find another man to marry so that you could have sex?.I agree that sex in marriage is very beneficial, and a great blessing, but it isnt everything, and to think of running away just because our spouse isnt what we want them to be isnt right.

I am not saying that he shouldnt be making more effort to please you and to be intimate more often, but I really feel you need to stop even entertaining any thoughts of divorce or of finding another man. You have both been divorced before, do you really think the right thing is to get another divorce?

I advise putting ALL thoughts of divorcing or finding another man, right out of your mind for good, and concentrate on praying for him and your marriage, and keep your focus on God and on your husband. Dont let the enemy destroy another marriage.

I suggest writing your husband a letter, setting out clearly how unhappy this is making you, and how this is hurting you so much and asking him to get help and maybe go to counselling.
Also get the book called "The power of a praying wife" by Stormie Omartian. It has scriptural prayers that you can pray each day, includuing ones on the sex side of things. You husbands relationship with God is the most important thing here, so that he can be saved and God can work in him.

I think its amazing that you have a mum who you can pray with. Few people have that, so what a blessing. Its also brilliant that after you prayed, the burden lifted and you felt that peace. Stay close to God,He does understand, and He does want you help you and your husband and your marriage.

chosen

27th May 2011, 08:55 AM

Raymond, I was posting the same time as you were, Glad that we have said the same thing more or less.

chosen

27th May 2011, 09:11 AM

baronness
Just wanted to add, that in my husband first marriage of 23 years, sex was always a big dissappointment for him as he was frequently rejected and wasnt allowed to do many of the normal things that couples do in sex. It was a great dissappointent for him, as his wife controlled sex always and they only had sex when she said so, and that wasnt very often. he was never allowed to iniatiate it. He would never have left her though or divorced her, because he had made a covenant promise to her to be faithful and to be her husband.

It is ironic that she ended up meeting another man, divorced her husband,and slept with the other man while the divorce was taking place, but because of his integrity God has blessed him with a very good and happy second marriage.
The reason that I say this is that despite the unhappy sex life, he never ever considered leaving her or cheating, and God has honoured that.

Baroness

27th May 2011, 09:38 PM

I have to say that even though the bible says to stay with your spouse and feelings don't come into it. its very sad to have to stay someone you don't love. You spend your life with this person and you are unhappy. I don't see the logic in it but I know that's what the bible says. I have stopped thinking about finding another man who might be better for me and I have stopped thinking about leaving him altogether. You are right in that sex isn't all there is to a relationship.
I have resigned myself to making the best of things. God can take your love away because my mom was married to an alcoholic who cheated on her all the time and she asked God to take the love away and he did and she finally divorced him when one of his mistresses showed up on our doorstep and confirmed to my mother that my father was cheating on her. But gabby does not cheat on me and so as long as that's the case I must stay with him because we have built a happy home here together and have known each other nine years and I feel we are lucky that we still love each other.
There are many people who have no one in their lives and are alone. Not that it is such a bad thing, but love is a gift and this man treats me decently. I have also decided to accept the way things are, not to let it make me angry or resentful. The comment about the wheelchair really got me. Of course I wouldn't leave him if he was in a wheelchair and that opened my eyes a little because even though he isn't in a wheelchair, he still is sick in a way. Not a bad way but he's still having a problem and I can't leave him just because he's older than me and is having this problem. I feel I have been very patient and I don't pressure him and so he thinks i'm fine with it.
I have mentioned it before and he won't admit he's having a problem but yet there have been times when our lovemaking was a success even though it doesn't happen as often as I would like. However; I have prayed about this and so I feel God will answer this prayer and I think he is concerned with the way that we feel. Before I met gabby I was convinced that love didn't last and yet here I am still loving him for nine years. I would love him more I think, if we actually had a more active sex life but what all of you said has hit home and I agree with most of it.
I will try to entice him into making love again but not right now because he's still having problems with his tooth but once he has it taken care of I will try. But I will not put my self on the line doing it. I will not go to him and say I want to make love. I will do what i've always done that has been successful and that is to put on a sexy nightie and see what happens. He has to take antibiotics and then the dentist will take care of the problem once the infection leaves.
In a lot of ways we are perfect together. I can be in my room on line or working on a novel and he never pressures me to stop, in fact, he encourages my writing. He is rather quiet at times but for the most part I don't mind because I have quiet times but not as often as he. I like to talk and joke around and talking about things helps. So does coming on here. I know what the bible says about marriage but if he doesn't show any effort in this area after a year or so then I will do what I think is right.
I can't spend the rest of my life like this and yet I can't see a life without him. I don't think I should have to suffer and go thru the rest of my life not being touched. I've gone over this for a long time because i've been going thru this for about three years now. He does make an effort however and as long as he does then I will stay. I'm writing this to you but in my heart I know I really can't leave him. I just hate the thought of no affection or sex at all. He does show affection but its been a couple of months now and before this years it was like six month spans and at least we aren't doing that anymore.
I'm going thru a lot. I have back pain and am going to the doctor about it and I can't find a job and i'm not used to earning money and this problem. I am confident that God will help us, at least I hope he does but in the meantime I am praying and reading my bible and making the best of it. If he has my love and support then he will have no reason to not want to get close to me. I know that he loves me very much and I made this choice long ago.
I chose him or maybe God did, and so I must do the very best I can because I don't want another failed relationship. Neither one of us is domineering in the sex dept, like what you were saying about your husbands ex calling all the shots and we don't even say we want to make love, we just cuddle at times and hold hands and then we go to bed together. No words need to be spoken but he's carrying the no word thing a little far in that he can't tell me anything about why; he just acts like there isn't a problem.
But there is no problem that God can't solve, there is no problem that I can't handle. I know its confusing to hear me say that I don't want to live like this for the rest of my life and then I say I can't leave him as long as I love him. Think about how confusing it is for me at times. When other men show an interest in me I think "See? I could be with a man who actually wants me." But the problem is I really don't want to be with anyone but him.
I have my doubts and fears and yet I have faith in God also. I can't accept the way things are and yet I have accepted it for years now. But if it doesn't change I can't see the fairness in staying with someone who shows you no affection at all. But more important than anything is my desire to do what God wants me to do. I feel that is to try and work this out. I've asked God for strength and the past few days have been an improvement in my thinking process and my whole demeanor. I am a strong woman and have always been pretty grounded in my faith. He was a catholic and then became saved but he doesn't go to church because he's always volunteering up at the canyon.
He doesn't understand what it is to be a christian and how god can change your life, even the way you think. God guides me on how to deal with him as an ex catholic. Only God can show him that there is much more in our relationship with God. I do know he prays and reads the bible and loves God but in my opinion catholics are the worst to deal with because they are used to thinking and believing the way they do. I can't grasp the concept of a confessional, but he has been to confession although not in many years.
He used to give out communion to the sick for the catholic church. The fact that he loves God is why I got together with him in the first place really. I couldn't be with someone who didn't believe in God. Before we moved in here together I thought we would be going to church together but he will not give up his volunteering. These are all things I have prayed about. Please keep me in your prayers. I am determined to make this work and to be happy and more than anything I just want him to be happy too.

Raymond

28th May 2011, 09:27 AM

I see that you are believing and that you want God's best which is number one really in our priorities. Out of that come the answers whatever direction they come from.

I was reading 1 Cor 7:4 yesterday where it says "The wife does not have authority over her own body but the husband does: and likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body but the wife does. Therefore do not defraud one another unless it is with consent for a while" We can see from this that it is God's clear will that sex is happening within a marriage (not outside of it). If one reads the Song of Solomon it is full of lovemaking.

How to get this across to him as a christian is another question but what you are needing is not unreasonable according to the scriptures.

chosen

28th May 2011, 11:34 AM

I am very impressed at your post and I can see God working very much in you and your situation. He loves to use such things to bring us closer to Him.

I do think that God did work in your mums situation and marriage, because her husband had cheated many times and thus broke the marriage covenant and he was damaging her, but I do believe that your marriage is different, and apart from this one problem it is good.

I also agree totally at how hard it is to reach Catholics. I belong to another forum, a Christian one, and the RC's there are so hard to deal with and reach, as they seem to be so blind to the truth of the Bible and what is important, and they place such importance on tradition and rituals and 'religion', as opposed to the reationship that God wants to have with us. However keep on praying for him, and the fact that he prays and reads the Bible is brilliant. MY pastor was bought up as a RC and went to an RC boarding school, so he has a lot of insight as to what goes on. He came out of it when he became a Christian in his late teens.

Baroness

28th May 2011, 09:01 PM

Thanks so much for all of your input, it has helped me come to this point. I do seem happier although nothing has changed between us but my mom prayed with me and I do see a change in him. He's talking more and even joking once in awhile and seems to be doing better. I can only hope and pray that it will get better. The closer to God I get the more I am able to be happy anyway and deal with this. I have to keep believing that God has the answer to this.
Its very different getting advice from christians than just a website with non-christians. I'm on the road to a better life and I do feel better. I have somehow come to accept what is happening even though I am not satisfied with the way things are. At some point in time I will talk to him again about this but I feel to just leave it for now and concentrate on getting my life in order with God. A lot is going on in our lives and not having a job is difficult but we do have love, him and I, and there are a lot of people in the world who do not.
To have someone truly love you is a wonderful thing in itself. Life isn't perfect and we have our issues and problems but as long as the love is there I think things can be worked out. I will just be honest and open with him when I talk to him and be patient and very nice, the way I usually am so as not to make him defensive. Meanwhile I will support him and treat him well like I always do. The difference now is that I won't be resenting him and angry deep inside me.
I have to change the way I think but anything is possible with God and being angry and resentful doesn't solve anything, its only hurting myself. I have to trust God and I have to trust this man I fell in love with so long ago. I'm not saying it will be an easy road, i'm just saying that with god's help we can travel this road together and eventually reach the end.

chosen

28th May 2011, 09:51 PM

You are so right, what an amazing way God is working in you!Its so encouraging. Carry on what you are doing, and you are so right that resentfullness and anger can be so destructive.
As you said Baroness, to have a person who loves you and wants to be with you is so special, with so many people who have no one. Keep thanking God for the good things that you have.

God Bless

Raymond

29th May 2011, 09:07 AM

You are giving yourself your own wise counsel Baroness which I heartily agree with. We are supposed to live by faith and that is what you are doing. God is always a rewarder of those that diligently seek him. He puts amazing answers in unbelievble places sometimes.

Baroness

30th May 2011, 01:20 AM

Well, I actually talked to him sooner than I thought. We were in the front room watching tv and before I actually thought about it I asked him how come he never sleeps with me and he said I'm on the computer and that's why. I said i'm not always on the computer and sometimes I go to bed before him and he kind of changed the subject. We were sitting there holding hands and listening to music by that time and later on he went to go take a shower, which is the sign that he's coming to bed. He likes to take a shower before making love to me and he's always done that. So I come to bed and he's asleep.
This has happened before and it upset me because normally he would hold me at least but this time he didn't and it was kind of late for us so he just crashed. I feel like I missed that opportunity and today I told him he passed out on me again and he kind of shrugged his shoulders. I also told him that he works so hard up at the canyon and that is why he passes out on me. He acted like it was no big thing. When this has happened previously he always apologizes if he thinks i'm upset about it but because I didn't act upset, that was his reaction.
Even though I was upset last night I just don't have the personality to stay mad at him even though it would let him know that it wasn't okay. I used to be mad the next day and if I got angry when it happened he always would apologize. I didn't ask him anything else last night because of what he said about sleeping with me. Yes, I am on the computer but its because he's watching reruns, which I told him last night, but there are many times I go to bed before him and he stays up and watches tv.
For no reason I told him earlier today that I loved him and he said he loved me too and I went to kiss him. Lately i'm the one who kisses him and it bothers me a little but he does kiss me sometimes. I want to shake him and tell him that he needs to be more attentive in this relationship. Doesn't he realize how lucky we are to have found one another? He needs to pay attention. He also said it was hard for him to pay all the bills and I reminded him that he said it would be fine, but I can tell he is a little stressed but whenever I bring it up he just waves it aside.
I thanked him for being so understanding about taking care of everything but he just doesn't see that us not making love is a problem or he doesn't want to admit anything so he takes that attitude. Now he will go back to sleeping in there and I will go to bed early tonight because I stayed up late and I can assure you that he won't be sleeping with me. It's just an excuse. He didn't snore, which was his original excuse and its true, that I had a hard time previously sleeping with him when he snored and he didn't want me to go out on the sofa so he sleeps on the sofa instead.
I just wish he'd do something. It's like i'm not even here, he doesn't notice me or care about us being together. This is when it is the hardest for me because he was in bed with me but nothing happened. I'm trying not to focus on sex too much but when its been so long its hard not to. He had every intention of making love to me last night but he fell asleep. This is the way its been for several months. However, we've been joking around with each other today and things seem fine.
We talked a lot last night about different things. The canyon, my daughter, a lot of stuff but nothing of a personal nature as to him and me. He has said to me if i'm not happy, he will leave and that concerns me too because why say that if you love someone? I think he is amazed that I have stayed with him all these years and he's told me I deserve someone better and I tell him there is no one better than he is. I go out of my way to say nice things to him, to make him feel loved and it doesn't cost me anything to do that.
I know he's had disasterous relationships and he can't believe that he's found someone to stick with him, he's said this. His longest relationship was five years and there was cheating going on so its almost like he expects me to cheat on him or find someone else and I told him i'm a christian and that isn't the way I was raised. I'm not on the look out for another man. I want this relationship to work. It's different for me now. Before I would have been upset and resentful, but I'm not. I'm showing him all the love I have for him and its become lighter between us, more comfortable and i'm not carrying around resentful thoughts or anger.
It's too bad about last night but there will be other times. It's just hard because I am not going through what he is. I'm the same and he has changed and its been hard for me to adjust. I actually feel closer to him since I've changed my attitude and started trusting God more. Life isn't fair sometimes and things happen and people change but we still love each other and even though I have confusion sometimes, I know that he loves me and I just don't want him to take 'us' for granted.

Raymond

30th May 2011, 09:12 AM

Sounds like you don't always sleep in the same bed but when you do nothing happens. Maybe things can happen earlier when he is not so tired and you are not on the computer. Is he hinting at this?

Anyway the main thing is preserving and maintaining the good relationship you have as you have touched on. As you say there will be other times. The fact that he said you are always on the computer seems to be the excuse so maybe he does think about it earlier. I don't know. I think you have to be careful about not pressuring him as you yourself have stated. At his age he might have performance pressure that is why I said you can do other things to take the pressure off the big performance.

Baroness

30th May 2011, 04:54 PM

I think that things will be okay now. I woke up this morning and was really happy when I said good morning and its quite a change from not speaking at all to him in the morning. We will be okay. I have come to accept the way things are. Yes, there will be other times. At least I hope so. Even if there aren't, what does it really matter as long as we long each other? Of course intimacy does matter but we have that in a different manner. My concern was just that he was acting like he didn't care about being with me anymore.
Women have a tendancy to take things at face value, what they see and hear and they react to that. I have a tendancy to look beyond what is said or not said, to what he might be feeling deep inside. I have always had this ability to look beyond what I person does and says to what might be causing them to react the way they do. That is why I am very careful about what I say to anyone because I weigh how they will feel if it was happening to me.
Obviously he is not going to talk about this since he is making the same excuses and that's fine. He doesn't have to talk about it. I will give him his dignity in this because I care about how he feels. I don't know what a man feels when he can't perform anymore but I can only try to understand how it feels. He doesn't have to bare his soul to me on this issue if it costs him to do so. I don't want him to feel any pressure because of me or something i've said and trust me when I say, he doesn't. I have never gotten angry at him because of this.
If I am upset the night he falls asleep then that feeling leaves in the morning. I told him he passed out on me again and he kind of ignored it where he used to apologize. We have settled in to this kind of relationship now. He sleeps in there mostly and sometimes he comes in here and lately he just falls asleep, but sometimes he holds me and tells me he loves me so as long as there is some intimacy I am glad. I leave the rest to God and I am still asking for his help in this.
But now I just want to be happy with this man and since I let go of my resentment we have been doing so much better. He has a tendancy to keep things to himself and he was horrible about it when we first met. Now he does open up to me but not on this subject. I have to respect his right to not bare his defiencencies regarding sex. I am just being loving and caring and this takes the pressure off of him even though he just makes excuses.
Before I came on here I was ready to leave him, I entertained that thought seriously when I would become very frustrated, but now I see that I was only making myself unhappy and that I love him regardless of how much time he spends in bed with me. Turning it all over to God has also helped very much. I was raised in church and I know that the only answer is God, but I got caught up in my feelings and frustrations and forgot that.
I won't forget it again and I want you to know that I am a strong woman and I will get through this. God has always helped me and while he seems kind of far from me now, I know he is not far. But I will tell you this, in all my life time of trials, this has to be the worst.

Raymond

30th May 2011, 07:03 PM

You have the commitment Baroness that goes beyond your feelings and that is very important. Sounds like things have improved during the marriage in that now he opens up more but not on sex yet.

Funny enough my wife doesn't open up verbally on sex very easily either, but because of embarrassment. I think a lot of women are like that maybe. If I want to say something I really need to say that is intimate and also makes me vulnerable I have to get it really right. I usually keep it on the back burner and pray about it until the opening comes. I find that if I feel strongly about it the opportunity comes in a natural way and that is when I need the courage to strike while the iron is hot as it can disappear if you are not careful.

Baroness

31st May 2011, 05:43 PM

Well, after everything I have said about accepting it and relying on God, lastnight I was regressing in that I was very frustrated. We had a good day. I barbeques steaks and make potato salad from scratch and had corn on the cob. And yet I went to bed alone because I was so busy all day and he was sitting there watching tv. We spent all day together watching movies I chose and were getting along and he thanked me for the great meal and once in bed I realized that nothing had changed and that nothing is going to change.
I felt like a fool because no matter how patient I am and how I try to leave everthing to God; I am the only one changing here, that nothing has changed really except me and my thinking process. Of course I have always been understanding and loving but i've been doing it for years and now I feel as though I have nothing to look forward to and that's when depression sets upon me and I feel like i'm wasting my time. I also feel like i'm sending the message that its okay that he doesn't sleep with and its okay that we don't make love and as long as i'm sending this message he will do nothing to make me feel better and will keep on in his same way.
I want to be mad at him so he will see that things are not okay, that I can't just accept this, but my anger never lasts because I am a Christian and I have a tendancy to not carry the feelings to the next morning. This morning I woke up and didn't even want to get out of bed. He's up at the canyon now and will be home by noon. Its frustrating not to tell him how I feel but he won't want to hear it. I wonder how I ever got into this situation. How could something so great turn into something so frustrating? How could this be happening to me?
I've heard about erectyle disfunction for years and in the past I always considered myself lucky because he showed no signs of it. And now here we are in something I never thought would happen and I should have seen it coming because he is 9 years older than me but I just didn't expect it so soon and actually never gave it a second thought. I know I am digressing and I apologize but I have to wonder if this is the way its always going to be; me being brave in my understanding and patience, and then once in awhile feeling this hopelessness and battling it?
Perhaps I should read the bible now and pray because I can't stand to be positive one day and then the reality of the situation descends upon me and I feel hopeless and like there will be no more happy times for us, no sharing of our bodies, and I wonder if it will eventually take its toll on my love for him. I've heard people say that a relationship can not last without sex. Do you think that is true? I'm a vibrant woman most of the time and need to be loved. Please forgive me this morning because i'm at that point where all my positive thoughts have left me.
I will no doubt recover and go back to more positive thoughts but it was me in this state that caused me to go on line and seek advice in the first place. It seems such a hopeless situation and I feel like crying this morning because I fear it will never get any better. As a christian am I expected to just accept a life without sex because he has a problem? It seems unfair to me that christian women have to just accept this and live like this without being fullfilled. What is wrong with me? I have been so positive and now I am going back to the way I felt before, despondent and feeling like i'm really all alone.
I know why this is happening to him, I understand the logistics and why he can't talk about it, but why can't I just accept it all the time instead of just some of the time? Why do I have to wake up and feel like I have nothing to look forward to with him? I know sex is not everything in a relationship and i'm probably just being ridiculous but I do feel this way right now and I wonder why I can't just live with him this way without getting upset.

chosen

31st May 2011, 05:58 PM

baroness
Things always seem harder at some times than others. I am like you in that some days I can feel good about life, others even small things seem to bring me down a bit. I think that is partly us women who allow feelings to sway us.
Why dont you pour your heart out in a letter telling him how you feel? Write what you have said here, and how important it is that you work on this together?If he knows exactly how unhappy you are,and and still wont do anything to help the situation, then that would be sad. Maybe he thinks that if you dont mention it, you arent worried any more?

I cant agree that some who say that a relationship cant last without sex. There must be many many couples who are elderly, or where one is ill or disabled and sex isnt possible, that carry on, but as you say it is important.
Do you think it is his age? I only ask this because it wasnt long ago that you said you had sex a lot, and to go from that to practically nothing, seems unlikely unless there is another reason for it.

Chamomile

31st May 2011, 06:32 PM

I know sex is not everything in a relationship and i'm probably just being ridiculous but I do feel this way right now and I wonder why I can't just live with him this way without getting upset.

A Good question, Chosen. I did wonder the same thing but I had hesitated to ask. It did cross my mind if he is seeing someone else? He does come across as a very content man who hadn't had s** for a while? This is very odd for a man....S** to men, is well higher up on his priority list. And, his h is not interested, there must be a reason as you say.

Baroness, I don't think you are being "ridiculous". If I am incapable of sharing intimacy in our marriage, my h will naturally consider a divorce or consider finding/seeing someone else. I know this because when I was ill for some time and not able to give him the kind of attention he so needed as a man, he tried to seek some "friends" through a dating site.
Relationship between a husband and a wife is a special relationship. Surely once it's no longer fulfilled, you are bound to miss that special bond.

Have you thought about visiting S** Therapy?
hope this problem will come to an end very soon for you.
xxx

Baroness

31st May 2011, 10:33 PM

He's not seeing anyone else because I asked him and he said he hasn't been with another woman since he met me. It was about three years ago that we had good sex and since then it has been going downhill with him not keeping a **** on. He's 65 and i'm 55 and he told me once he doesn't know why but he gets more tired now and then apologized. That was about a year ago. I have written a letter to him, sweet and simple that I missed being with him sexually and he doesn't like to get letters and says I should just talk to him but when I try to talk to him he doesn't want to admit there is a problem. After this morning I just poured my heart out to God and I feel better.
You are right, people can live without sex, I just didn't want to be one of them. He does still try though and I do get pleasure but i'm not too sure he does. He likes sex or always has and so when I say i've had to adjust I mean over the past few years. I am still attracted to him and I asked him if he was attracted to me and he said of course he was, how could I ask such a thing and that he loved me very much.
I think it is his age because he spent a lot of time in bars drinking previously and I think its catching up to him. Maybe he was an alcoholic but he seems fine without drinking. I read up on alcoholics not performing anymore and so it fits but all I know is that I love him and for me to do this I have to be in touch with God on a daily basis. I thank you for your advice but if he can't have sex with me he certainly isn't having it with another person and God is a priority so I don't think he would do that. Besides, there are times when he is passionate and I see the old him but its few and far in between.
I will be fine. I just have to deal with this and maybe not think about it so much. It's hard and I don't mean to sound like a woman who has to have sex every day but I just miss it because it was so good. Thank you so much for encouraging me and giving me advice. It helps to come on here and talk about it and I hope you aren't getting tired of me talking.

chosen

31st May 2011, 10:42 PM

No we arent getting tired of you talking AT ALL.

Chamomile

1st June 2011, 10:34 AM

Indeedy :)
I think he probably needs to see a family doctor just in case, some men reaching certain age group, maybe some health check would be useful, particularly in the light of his previous drinking? (mainly to check there's nothing sinister behind all this x)

It's good to hear he had reassured you that there's no worry for porn or affair. What a relief :) I guess, I didn't realize you were 10 years younger than him. You know the sexual peak difference between men and women? Men reach his peak earlier in life and Women, on the other hand, very late..Maybe, he doesn't realize how important intimacy is? It could well be his fatigue. He should try something, when a woman is still in her 50s, it's not fair on her to just give it up so young.

xxx

chosen

1st June 2011, 10:48 AM

baroness
There are also drugs that men can take to help this, but if he doesnt want drugs then these herbal ones may help. Horny goat weed is one and Tribulis Terrestris is another.He could try taking both.

Raymond

1st June 2011, 12:42 PM

I think you are providing your own answers perfectly when you are up and in faith Baroness and then you seem to go into another frame of mind. This shows you are in a spiritual battle which you can win with God's help. The answers you have when you are in faith are the ones that are right in my opinion and you need to continue to believe when you are having a battle with feelings.

Of course any practical help as chosen has suggested might be helpful but I think there is more in this than meets the eye. I can almost guarantee that he has not lost his sex drive which basically starts in the brain. He just needs ways to express this with you.

Baroness

1st June 2011, 04:52 PM

I don't believe that he's lost his sex drive completely, but I do know for a fact that he can't keep an erection after awhile, i've experienced this and he doesn't have an orgasm that I know of and I would certainly know and this is because he loses it. I'm almost afraid to admit this but I think he's doing it himself in the other room because its easier and this is a big problem. I can't keep trying to catch him in the act and I can't be absolutely sure of it but it concerns me because i've read posts that say this is dangerous because he falls into that pattern and its hard to break.
This is ridiculous. He has a sexy, vibrant woman right here and he'd rather do it himself? What is wrong with him? I know he doesn't want to admit failure in bed with me and he never has. When that happened he just said he was tired now. Why does this man think its better to just keep this from me and he will never admit any of this. He can't think i'm stupid enough to believe this, can he? That everything is normal when we don't make love at all like we used to.
I will tell you that on an intellectual scale he is not as intelligent as I am. I am very smart and observant and I just know certain things about people because God blessed me with an observant nature and the Holy Spirit helps with this. Maybe he thinks I do buy this, but he will be the first to admit that i'm more intelligent than he is but in some things he is very knowledgeable and when he says he's stupid I always tell him he isn't and to stop saying that.
When he was young he had attention deficit in school and tried to keep it from his family because his sisters were all smart and it got better over time but the result is he doesn't often know how to talk to someone. I know he still thinks about it because it was hard for him because he didn't want his parents and family to think he was stupid. I told him that wasn't being stupid, that was a condition and now its better.
I don't allow him to put himself down and he doesn't do it all the time but if he thinks the way he does then perhaps he thinks i'm just buying his excuses but for me, with my mind, its hard to believe that anyone would think I wouldn't know whats going on. I'm very quick and witty and sometimes we have a good time joking around. I don't think he's stupid but I know that I see more than he does and for him to think that I don't is almost an insult.
I didn't mean to get into all this but he isn't as clever as I am and doesn't read people like I do. He trusts no one but me really and his friends up at the canyon and that's because of his past. He sees the glass half empty and I see it three quarters full and I don't want to lose my positive attitude but I have to admit that being around someone like that has taken its toll on me, but I must not go there. I liked being positive and for years I was naive, believing the good in everyone until I found out differently but I still believe there is good in people.
Being in my current situation with no job and income and also because of my back hurting its hard to believe things will turn out okay but that's where God comes in and he tells me things will be okay and that I need to trust him and I do trust him. Gabby's faith and mine are very different. I know God can transform a life and I have been through some deep spirtual experiences but he hasn't. He meditates in a spiritual manner and the holy spirit has touched him. Believe me, he's changed since he quit the catholic church and started having a relationship with God.
But he doesn't have one like I do. I was raised in a penticostal church and I have seen miracles in my own life that God has done. I believe nothing is impossible but it seems like this is impossible because you have to be open to hear God speaking to you and I don't think he's there yet. Of course I am not judging him because the bible says not to but i'm just telling you what I know. Being a catholic and now being close to God, you wouldn't think he'd feel right about master------, but what do I know? I caught him at it that one time and he acted insulted that I would accuse him of such a thing.
All I know is that this is hard for me and i'm trying to deal with it the best way I know but sometimes it isn't working. I also know he loves me and doesn't desire anyone else. When we're driving he won't even look at pretty women on the street and is very respectful of me and he just loves me and can't believe I still love him. Why wouldn't I? He's been kinder to me than any man and is always respectful. Even when we argue he is respectful and doesn't put me down or call me names, which has been the case with some men in my past.
Where do you get the horny goat and tribus terrestris? I don't think he'd take it if I tell him what its for because he won't admit he needs help and he has had a physical recently. This man is stubborn and in denial and i'm the one who has to pay for it. I'm treating him with love and patience and i'm afraid that the result is that he thinks i'm fine with this because i'm not getting on his case about it. He should know I would never get on his case about anything.
If I have a point to make or if there is a problem i'm very careful in wording it just so, so he will accept it. That knack comes easy for me because i'm always thinking how it would feel to be in the other persons shoes hearing the same thing and I also know that men don't respond to anger or demands and I wouldn't do that anyway. I'm just afraid that if he think i'm okay with this, he won't try to do anything about it. I can't talk to him about this any more than I have.
I wrote a letter to him once, as i've said, and after that he made an attempt to make love to me but I don't want him to make love to me because he's afraid i'm going to leave him or something. I don't want to pressure him into anything and yet I need what I would be pressuring him into. Does that make any sense? I just miss his sense of humor sometimes and I miss his body because I am still attracted to him. I love this man and yet there are times when I just want to go in there and shake him and say, 'We are missing out on so much!'

chosen

1st June 2011, 05:32 PM

You can get those herbal remedies at most health food shops or on line, maybe try e-bay as well.

Raymond

1st June 2011, 07:57 PM

Yes you cannot pressure him baroness and you don't want pity sex either.

If he is really doing private mb then that indicates a sex drive being used in the wrong way but you say you are not sure of that.

I think you are wise in not letting him confess stupidness or whatever. One has to be careful over their confessions and confess who God says we are.

It's great that you have a good relationship. I am sure that out of that and your prayers you will get answers.

Chamomile

2nd June 2011, 12:36 PM

How so interesting, Baroness, in what you describe.
What was his occupation before he had retired if you don't mind me asking this?
Sounds like he had a lot to take in his life and he sounds very unique and interesting. Hope this ed thing gets resolved very soon for you.
xxx

Baroness

3rd June 2011, 12:19 AM

He was a construction worker but mainly a painter and he had a crew working for him doing high rise buildings and he made a lot of money. He is retired now of course. He is also a musician, he plays the guitar and the banjo and in his youth roamed around the united states playing with a band in nightclubs and bars. When I met him the painting industry had gone done and shortly after we got together his back went out. He still paints occasionally and he is very good at it.
I checked out the horny toad weed and the tribus terrestris on line and I think I would rather do the tribus because I didn't like the side effects that are possible with the other one. He doesn't take vitimins or any pills so he won't want to take it in pill form but maybe I could put it in food, it is a herb after all and we already use herbs in cooking. It is actually very good for him. It fights cancer and high blood pressure and numerous other things. It is also for women but the last thing I need is to want sex more!
We seem to be doing very well together lately. He's been more communicative and I have been more loving. This morning I just went over to him and hugged him for no reason, other than physical contact is important. Since I changed the way I thought and started praying I have seen a different in him. He smiles more and talks to me more and is pleasant to be around and i'm sure he feels the same about me. I have good and bad moments actually. Sometimes I still think about it and get down when I think of what we are missing and sometimes i'm find and just leave it to God.
My mother is also praying about it with me and she is a great help to me. Solid christian. I stopped talking about my personal life to my friend of 35 years because she is no longer a christian and always puts a negative spin on everything so I decided not to share personal things with her because she was upsetting me all the time. She wants me to be more demanding and controlling and I refuse to be, that isn't even me on a bad day. So I guess its okay but like I say, its up and down. I think its normal that this upsets women.
Of course, I don't know what's going to happen but I can't expect the worst. I have to trust in God and hope he continues to deal with him. And me too. we still sleep in seperate rooms because i'm not going to bed at eight at night but hopefully that herb will help but I am happier this way because I don't like to be resentful or angry and I was surprised how easy it was to just not be anymore. I just decided to be happy because I wasn't helping myself by being angry and resentful.
There are still times when I digress but i'm trying really hard.

Chamomile

3rd June 2011, 09:41 AM

Baroness
Oh I see :) Your h does sound like a very interesting man. There must be an artist in him hearing how you describe your h. Hope that one of the herbs would work wonders, with the satisfactory results to be had for both of you, very soon! I admire your honorable attitude, perseverance and a lot of thinking towards your beloved h. I'm sure these things also help him to realize how much you deeply care about him.
With All the Best xxx

Raymond

3rd June 2011, 01:03 PM

At the end of the day your are casting your burdens upon the Lord Baroness which is the right thing to do. I know that you might take them back occasionally and be tempted to fix it yourself. He is loving us all the time even right this minute so He will be working. The answers that come from Him are always worth a lot and always seem to tie up with what He is doing in us. Remember He invented sex so He will know the answers.

If there are things you can do in faith like this herb, of course that is alright too. I hope it works but if it doesn't you have still chosen a road which will definitely bear fruit.

Baroness

3rd June 2011, 02:25 PM

Thank you both so much for all the help. This has been a learning experience for me and i'm seeing things like i've never seen them before. I have faith in God and I trust him to guide me. Before coming on here my faith was a little down but now it has been renewed because I turned to God and not my anger wanting me to lash out because I was hurt. I'm really trying and it isn't always easy but i'm a strong woman and so I think I can conquer this. Thanks for being there for me.

chosen

3rd June 2011, 03:46 PM

We are all rooting for you both.:)

Baroness

6th June 2011, 11:51 PM

I am not doing so well. Last friday we had a night together in the front room watching movies and we appeared to be having a good time so I put on his favorite nightie and we slept apart. I thought we were having a good time and he even went out to get fast food so I wouldn't have to cook and I told him that I wore the nightie just for him and he got an attitude like he didn't want to discuss it. To make matters worse I fell in the bathtub and he came to help me out. I slipped on the rug and he seemed concerned but didn't respond to me at all. He hasn't slept with me since then either and we have this unspoken agreement and its always been this way, that when I put on that nightie and we visit in the front room he will come to bed with me and nothing happened so i'm really depressed about this.
I'm afraid he just wants to satisfy himself because its easier. I haven't caught him at it but i'm pretty sure that's what he's doing. I found a note in the closet where he has written down gensing and I wish he'd take it. We'd talked about a lot of things and were getting along well but he isn't even trying anymore. My ribs kind on hurt when I turn on my side. I didn't bring up sex when we were together because I know he doesn't want to talk about it. We were joking at one point but when I brought up the nightie he had an attitude so I got up and went into the other room and slammed the door and was pretty upset.
What if the problem isn't that he has erectyle disfunction but that he just doesn't want to be with me? It seems ridiculous to me because he tells me he loves me and I know the last time we were together he couldn't finish. I also remember a time before that, that during foreplay I couldn't get a reaction out of him and I said I was tired and it wasn't doing any good because he wasn't getting hard anyway and he got angry and said that wasn't true but it was true and we both got angry. I'd forgotten about that but there is only so long a woman can do foreplay before she has to give up. I am so discusted with this.
Since then we've been getting along good like we always do and now i'm not sure about getting him that herb, would he even accept it and why isn't he trying to get something to help him all on his own? I tell you, its very depressing for me. I was so positive and now I feel like its a lost cause. At some point I will have to ask him what's going on but I already know what he'll say. He'll say he's been tired or some other excuse and i've been going to bed before him lately and he hasn't come in here so there goes that excuse. I'm sorry, but I think this is hopeless and now my ribs hurt. I feel a little better physically today but yesterday I had a headache all day and my stomach was upset and I think the stress is causing this. I don't know what to do anymore. For God to help him, he has to be willing to listen.

1aokgal

7th June 2011, 04:52 AM

Dear Baroness...

Please space your posts with paragraph breaks. It is easier to read. If there is anyone here who understands your situation and pain that would surely be me. You are likely quite right that your husband has little interest in sex and finds he cannot hold an erection for the simple reason he does it better than you can do it.

A man can be a selfmade unit of satisfaction as it is always obtainable, he knows the right friction and mode to reach satisfaction and usually is not interested in help elsewhere. It is an addiction, and an immature one, which is the death of a marriage. You are in the early stages of quietly being put to the side as your husband manages to blow you off when you broach the subject. That makes you feel you are in the wrong to force a discussion. I was there in that same spot thousands of times.

The man enjoys what he does and has tuned out your pain and puzzlement. You look for answers and there seem none. Believe me, that is not going to change without some serious couples therapy until he acknowledges he is a selfish pig who meets his own needs and you have the strength to be angry enough to realize this has nothing at all to do with you. It is not about how you look, but rests on his desire to meet
his own sexual needs. Sometimes it is a relationship problem in the marriage that might cause a man to withdraw into his own sexual fantasies. He can perhaps use porn to rev up his libido. Some men just use this mode for years and the marriage for him does not exist sexually. He may love you "in his way" it is just not going to be a sensual marriage.

There is no sex in many marriages. Many couples no longer share a bedroom. It simply is best not to lie beside a man who makes you feel unwanted and angry. I'm sorry for your pain. It takes some years to get the picture there. It will never get easier to realize you put your eggs in an empty basket. Some of us stay for the love we share in other ways, family, habit or just because time has moved on and there is no tooth fairy.

Raymond

7th June 2011, 09:01 AM

Your analysis is good 1okgal but we do not know that for sure yet. Until there is certainty I think we need to be careful. If that is happening then it is on the lines of mental adultery as it almost certainly would involve the fantasising of other women and images. I hope that is not the case.

Another tact is that even with ED men can still enjoy sex. Maybe he feels rejection at not be able to have an erection always baroness. Maybe this is the pressure he feels. Who knows? That he shuts off on questioning about it could indicate that possibly.

1aokgal

7th June 2011, 05:48 PM

Hi Raymond..

I understand men who experience ED can become embarrassed and not wish to discuss this problem. One might avoid getting medical evaluation without a bit of persuasion from a wife. There are physical factors, as diabetes or other illnesses that contribute to such conditions of low libido and ED. All of these factors should be evaluated. A man who shuts the door on these possibilities cheats both parties to see if other conditions contribute to the loss of intimacy.

It seems that there has been a wall drawn in this marriage. A wife is reacting to her feelings while having no idea of why this is happening. There needs to be some intervention with a consultation with a doctor or therapist. If the husband refuses to address the issue than time will pass until resentment kills any hope that things can change. It is very sad and happening more often than we realized from articles I have read on the subject.

There is also the possibility this man feels inferior to his intelligent, capable wife and may be "withholding." That happens when a man
feels only in control of the intimacy and he feels powerless elsewhere. A business loss or change in his circumstances can badly damage self esteem to point he feels diminished in the bedroom. Some men who retire feel very depressed. Some real buildup to his confidence might make this better. That is an emotional issue and a form of depression that can effect the desire for intimacy with his mate. Sometimes there are problems in marriages where a man feels in competition with a woman with power. He may be severely depressed. There are many factors in this problem that both parties must consider. If this husband shuts down than she is a hostage
to his failure to address how this has hurt their relationship.

Forever

7th June 2011, 06:13 PM

I think it is odd that they are sleeping in seperate rooms. If all is well between them in this relationship apart from the sexual issue, then why compound the problem by sleeping in different rooms?

It seems like he feels he can only sleep with her if he is confident that he can "rise" to the occassion...so what does sleeping apart do to the level of intimacy and affection (outside of having actual sex) if they dont even share the marital bed anymore?

1aokgal

7th June 2011, 07:37 PM

Forever..

Might the sleeping apart also be part of "withholding" or punishing a wife he may feel is too much in control? A power woman and a man who no longer has the place in business he used to have might be pouting and being withdrawn to "punish" that woman who admits she thinks he is less intelligent. Is he picking up her evaluation of him?

Relationships are so complex and human beings sometimes get lost in misunderstandings. I hope these people can reconnect and discuss what is happening for both.

Baroness

10th June 2011, 12:36 AM

Okay, first of all there is no way that I have intimated that I am more intelligent that him. When he says he's stupid sometimes I am very quick to tell him not to say that, that he is not stupid and that I am very proud of him for all that he does. Compliments are not lacking on my side and I mean them. He does not look at other women, not when he's driving and not when we're out like we were lastnight.

He finally took me out and we saw old friends and had a good time I dressed sexy for the occasion and i'm not sure he even noticed. We got along great and laughed a lot and I asked him if he was feeling okay and he thought I meant him working so hard up at the canyon and he flexed his muscles for me and I said that isn't what I meant, I meant are you feeling okay in the rest of your body? He looked confused for a minute and said yes. I did everything except ask him why a certain part of his body doesn't seem to work anymore. He kissed me several times and told me how much he loved me.

He's paid alot of attention to me for the past few nights and I haven't been in here on the computer but right there beside him and we've talked and laughed but when its time to go to bed that's another story. One night in particular while we were listening to music I said i'm just going to sit here and see what excuse you will use tonight for not sleeping with me and he said he'd go into the bedroom right now. He did in a little while but when I went in there he had his back turned and was sleeping in the middle of the bed so I had to go on the sofa.

The next morning he came in there and leaned over me and kissed me and said I wasn't where I was supposed to be, I was supposed to be in bed but I told him there was no room and he was sound asleep. Then he told me to be ready when he got back because we were going out. We've had many good moments this week alone and he even danced with me when we were listening to music but it gets really late and so I go to bed.

But even when he goes into our bed he falls asleep right away. Another thing I want to point out is that I am not what you call a powerful woman. I write novels and i'm home because I can't get a job and also my back hurts and i'm going to the doctor this monday, but it isn't that i'm domineering at all and I don't call the shots here, I dont feel the need to do that. I let him do whatever he wants because I just want him to be happy and I tell him that.

He doesn't flirt with other women and assures me that i'm the only woman he's ever wanted but I looked very nice last night and he never said anything about how I looked. All of our friends did however, and some of the men actually hit on me that are supposed to be his friends. I just smile indulgently at them and tell them I love gabby. I give him no reason for jealousy and visa versa.

The sleeping apart started long ago when I was going through menopause and not sleeping the night through and would go on the sofa. He said he didn't want me to go out there because he knew I didn't sleep well and also because of his snoring, I would also go out there so he would tell me he would sleep out there because of his snoring and it seemed okay to me because I slept better by myself anyway, but I came to count on him sleeping with me occasionally and we would make love.

He used to tell me that he loved to make love to me and he likes my body and that he was lucky. For the past few months whenever he has gone to bed with me he just falls asleep or he'll hold me and talk to me but he won't touch me and I know the reason is that he can't maintain an erection after awhile. The last time he kind of snapped at me because I wasn't stroking him the way he wanted and so I did and he seemed a little impatient and I think that's because he doesn't it himself and wants me to do it like that and so I did.

Also, if he sleeps out there he can do this whenever he wants but I don't know for sure he is but i'm thinking that he is and it makes me angry when i'm right here ready to give him pleasure and I can't understand how he can't miss it. He brings it to my attention that he's in good shape for his age and he is, he's got great muscles for a man of 65 and to me he's beautiful but its frustrating that I can't be with him like I want.

However; I never let him see the frustration and I don't complain about not having sex, I will just say that he passed out on me again and he used to apologize. When I got mad about it one night about 6 months ago he came to me and apologized, trying to make me feel assured that he still wanted me. A couple of nights ago he said if I wanted someone else who was more romantic or smart then I should find them and he's said this to me before so I said you keep saying that and one of these days I just might do that. If you don't want me then just say so and he was quick to say he did want me.

I think he feels bad about us not having sex anymore and he's told me upon occasion that I could find someone better than him and he can't believe I am still with him and I always tell him he's the best man i've ever known and I don't want anyone else and that he's treated me more decent than any man and its true. He is usually a very happy man. He likes going up to the canyon and is trying to convince me and himself that he's in great shape and I think that's the reason he can't talk about what is happening with his body.

He won't go to a counselor because he would have to admit it and he would rather die than admit that and I understand this, it must be very hard for a man to go through that. I don't care if he wants to sleep on the sofa because it works for us, but I just want him to make an attempt every once in awhile to be with me. We've gone out like we did last night before and we always come home and go to bed early but that did not happen. I have to learn to live with this but I can't see myself not having sex for the rest of my life.

The past few days have been the perfect opportunity for us. I put on sexy nighties which he always liked and I get nothing, literally. I have a sensual nature and so that is why this is a problem. My friends could like like this and be perfectly happy but I know I will never be happy with it and I will finally just have to ask him what the problem is even though I know, or pretty sure I know. He is a wonderful man, very considerate, not too romantic but he does do romantic things once in awhile and thinks he's lucky.

I can't be mad at him because of this and yet I do get mad when I think about it but he doesn't see that. I don't think its fair for me to be upset with him when this is just something that is happening. However; I think he should have been honest with me so I didn't go through all the head trips I have. And you are right, I do feel like a prisoner or a hostage. I can't leave because I love him and I can't stay with things like this, but I am staying no matter how it hurts me and I try to make the best of it. The downside of that is that he thinks i'm dealing with it and its fine which is why I bring it up every once in awhile.

We have a lovely home which we've decorated and we get along. I understand him and he thinks he understands me, but he doesn't know i've had thoughts like this. If I told him that would not help. My job is to make him happy and to have his back and to encourage him and not put pressure on him at all and I don't. He's stubborn and i'm still thinking about getting those herbs that will help. I guess you could say i'm happy and miserable at the same time.

Forever

10th June 2011, 01:57 AM

Quite frankly, I think you are very fortunate to have a husband like him....because he does not lust for other women. You cannot prove or assume that he masterbates at this point, so assigning that to him is unfair. I also think that if you do not stop dwelling on the lack of sex, you might "think" yourself right out of an otherwise great marriage. If you did that, you might find someone who wants to have sex with you, but in exchange for what other kinds of problems???

I have "sex" with my husband about once every ten days or so. He gets "primed" for being with me by looking at other women half my age because he has a fixation on youth and the "hard bodies" that they have. Also, he loves the variety...he finds something sexy to dwell on with every attractive women...he automatically looks for them where ever he goes and has to go to great pains to hide it from me if I am around. I recently caught him scrolling the internet for images that are not considered "hard" porn, but "soft" porn....scantily clad beauties in provocative positions and such.

At this point I would actually prefer if he just go ahead and masterbate rather than make "use" of my body to fullfill his lust for others...and I told him that recently. So, putting that aside, we have a great relationship. I never approach him for sex because I am sure to be turned down...I cannot predict when his libido is sufficiently aroused by others to result in anything for me. So I am quickly coming to the conclusion that if I want to keep the "marriage", I will just forgo the sexual hopes and expectations part of it. I am 56 years old and considered very attractive by any other man's standards for my age. I am no longer attracted to him in any sexual way because he patronizes me as a woman by feigning sexual interest in me that comes from his mental and emotional "excitation" of other women (his words).

If I allow my ego to get the best of me, I would probably throw away the relationship at this point. So instead, I told him that I no longer want ANY sex from him but that I will do a service for him. I am simply not interested in pretending that his sexual desires could be aroused by me anymore...that is, they have nothing to do with me at all. He gets a BJ when he needs one (sorry for graphics), I want absolutely nothing in return. We will see how long our relationship lasts under those circumstances, but at least he is getting his relief, and now I am getting mine in a different way...not feeling ashamed and humiliated.

What the Lord is going to do about all this, I have no clue...He told me to "forbear".

chosen

10th June 2011, 08:42 AM

Forever that is such a sad state of affairs. If he made the effort and prayed and realised how sinful what he is doing is(he is constantly committing adultery of the heart), then things could really change.
I can totally understand why you no longer want to have sex with him. If I knew that my husband would only be able to have sex with me by looking at, thinking about and lusting after other women, then I just could not and would not do it either. Its just as if he is actually having sex with them because they are probably in his mind while having sex with you and that is SOOO bad.
I hear you when you say that otherwise you have a good marriage, but for me that would be too much to accept, and I doubt that I would stay with a man who treated me like that and wasnt prepared to do anything about it.Especially a man who claims to be a Christian.
My Father was a womaniser, and had porn in the house(would probaboly be called soft porn these days ie playboy mags etc)and liked to lust after other women, and this drove my mother to suicide after he did actually have a long affair. One reason why I would not and could not put up with it.

I wish that my pastor could talk to him about this, he would be left in no uncertain terms what he needs to do, and he wouldnt like it. The thing is that he is feeding it all the time and while he does this the fire will never go out.If he could recognise the terrible sin that he is committing then he hopefully would do something about it. However he has you, and he has his fantasies, so why does he need to change????

I agree with you that for a man or women to not be interested in sex at all is one thing, but for them to be lusting after sex with women young enough to their daughter (or even granddaughter)is quite another.

Raymond

10th June 2011, 12:59 PM

I think the same way as you Chosen but we are not Forever (I'm certainly not) who believes she should persevere and not break up her marriage. Personally I think time away from everything, say a month at a retreat, would really highlight the problem for him. At the moment, as you say, he keeps feeding the problem and cannot see the wood for the trees.

At least you do not have this problem Baroness so you have something to be grateful for. The sexual drive is a good thing in it's right place in marriage. Muddy the waters from outside and it will be a place of confusion.

When all is said and done the problem seems to be ED which I think can be sorted to a certain extent. I think a blockage has occurred perhaps through the pressure of your expectations and he believing he is unable to meet them. Maybe cultivating a more relaxed attitude to sex to start with and being willing to vary what you do a little so he can take part without pressure might help. Just a thought. It might take the fear and embarrassment away.

Of course talking always helps and him knowing that his ED is not such a big thing to you might enable him to talk and release him from his fears. Your encouragement and acceptance can do a lot of good and lead to a solution here.

Chamomile

10th June 2011, 03:41 PM

He won't go to a counselor because he would have to admit it and he would rather die than admit that and I understand this, it must be very hard for a man to go through that. I don't care if he wants to sleep on the sofa because it works for us, but I just want him to make an attempt every once in awhile to be with me.

I can't be mad at him because of this and yet I do get mad when I think about it but he doesn't see that. I don't think its fair for me to be upset with him when this is just something that is happening. However; I think he should have been honest with me so I didn't go through all the head trips I have. And you are right, I do feel like a prisoner or a hostage. I can't leave because I love him and I can't stay with things like this, but I am staying no matter how it hurts me and I try to make the best of it. The downside of that is that he thinks i'm dealing with it and its fine which is why I bring it up every once in awhile.

Hi Baroness

Well, you would have to have a calm and quiet "talk" with him if your previous message didn't get through to him. (Best not to let your anger take over the "talk"..x) Are you sure he does not use one of those state run brothels or something alike? This question is not meant to be derogatory but it's just a question as there are establishments catering "happily married" men either here in UK or in the US and they do say, they are "raking in" a big time with a constant stream of "clients" through their doors, they say (!).

Remembering what you said before that your h was very "active" prior to this rather sudden change that had started, it's hard to completely deny the possibility of alternative sexual "outlet" for him? He sounds pretty "tired" as well as if his needs are met already? (I didn't think he's working right now? so it's hard to tell what's making him so tired? Could it be a sign of natural slow-down or some health issue?)

You probably need to have this talk very calmly as you seem to be allowing him to give him the permission not to discuss this problem more openly. He might get "mad" as an immediate reaction but men usually know who is in the wrong so long as things are said politely and points made would stay within reason. I personally do not think this would be considered as giving him a pressure but it is a legitimate concern expressed by his worried W that there might be some issues behind this e.g. possibility of his needs met else where, issues in his health etc. These are entirely legit subjects to talk in marriage.

If he loves you, he needs to learn to accept your concern. Loving someone is not just about passive appreciation but it's also about accepting/listening to your concern and take that on board. He is acting rather childish refusing to go to a therapist. Committed husbands will do their best to save the important part in his marriage.

Good luck xxx

Chamomile

10th June 2011, 07:51 PM

Also, he loves the variety...he finds something sexy to dwell on with every attractive women...he automatically looks for them where ever he goes and has to go to great pains to hide it from me if I am around. I recently caught him scrolling the internet for images that are not considered "hard" porn, but "soft" porn....scantily clad beauties in provocative positions and such.

I am simply not interested in pretending that his sexual desires could be aroused by me anymore...that is, they have nothing to do with me at all.
What the Lord is going to do about all this, I have no clue...He told me to "forbear".

Hi Forever

Men are visual, that way, I think. (I seem to have read somewhere about men with varied mental pictures etc) At least, it's good that he's not looking at hard core porn anymore. So, maybe, he's working on not looking at soft one right now? Forever, do you put him on a pedestal? Sometimes, it sounds like as if he's enjoying acting like some sort of unattainable Godly presence? If he is in fact, such a "slob" in his marital bedroom department then he would have to work hard at it. Surely, it would be all amenable to God who supports good marriage. xxx

Forever

10th June 2011, 10:25 PM

Chamomile,

I do not put him on a pedestal, but I certainly do enjoy the relationship otherwise....maybe having been married twice before has net me more patience and tolerance and the stomach to see this to the end.

His visual desire for stimulation outside the marriage is what brought me to this place. I do not believe as a Christian married man that he will be excused for that just because he is male. He does not deeply examine himself or give much thought to this because his eyes are busy being turned "outward" (in an ungodly way) rather than inward or at himself. He does not know what it is like to "make love"...sex is just about getting aroused by whatever means possible and then getting relieved by his wife. His words are: "Sex is sex, and love is love" and I guess that means that the one has nothing to do with the other in his economy. I do not imagine that will ever change unless God intervenes.

He was like this with his ex wife also (although he did cheat physically), so it is an internal thing having nothing to do with the "quality" of our relationship per se (outside of the sex act/drive problem). No, he is not working on avoiding anything (other than "hard" porn)...as I have just found he was scrolling the internet looking for hot women about five days ago.

As I mentioned earlier, he does not win the war with lust because he enjoys the battle's far too much. This is what the Lord told me when I saw the most recent website browsing he was doing. God did not mean for us to be in a perpetual life long battle over the same sin over and over. He provided us His victory if we resist the devil and decide by our will and the Spirit to avail ourselves of that victory. Trouble is, my husband thinks that if he just more clever at concealing everything from me, that means he is successful at loving me. I think that perspective is rather insidious given the effects it has on us both.

And if that were true, why am I so ashamed, and why does God want me to "Forbear"???

But I am hijacking this thread...my point to Baroness was that perhaps she should not focus so heavily on her husband's "problem"... he is not being "immoral" by having this sort of infirmity, and we dont always get everything we want in life... my concern for both of them is that if she is not careful, she will jump from the frying pan straight into the fire, and regret it more than the loss of the sexual expressions she is missing out on. The devil would just love that...to destroy something good because of our sad dissapointments. Sometimes we have to know when to stand down and rely entirely on the Lord....if He does nothing, we have to accept it graciously....and "graciously" means more than we understand it to mean. Baroness is constantly vacillating between trusting God and being hurt as a sexual creature. I am slowly coming to that conclusion but it is difficult....sort of like dying to my own desires to accomodate the end results of his problem.

I take the liberty to speak this way because we share the Christian faith and I am hoping Baroness will recognise that.

Baroness

11th June 2011, 04:46 AM

Of course I am going from trusting God and being hurt. I'm only human. Just because I trust God doesn't mean someone can't hurt me. And no, he wouldn't dream of going to any kind of brothel. He never has and he wouldn't do that to me. Besides, his problem is physical and it didn't happen suddenly. It's been happening over the past 4 years, its just worse now but I am not in danger of cheating on him. I thought about it and decided that as a christian that would be the worst thing I could do. Listening to Forever, however, I am beginning to feel a little fortunate. I'm so sorry you have to live like that and I would not do it for a minute.

I already have thought about finding someone else and putting up with his problems, you never know, and while I might have a great time, I would always be wondering if he was being faithful. A christian husband is supposed to have ethics and cheating is not one of them. I trust Gabby to be faithful and he's told me that he has been since the day we met and I believe him. He seems to have a close relationship with God and while it isn't like mine, it is what it is and it has changed him.

Anyway, he's been paying a lot of attention to me lately and I know he worries about me cheating on him because we don't have sex like we used to but I have given him no reason to worry about that but it is logical that he would. I have decided just to deal with this. We love each other and get along pretty well and trust one another and I remember what someone said to me in one of these threads and that was if he was in a wheelchair, would I leave him because I wouldn't be getting sex? The answer is no and it kind of hit me when I read it.

Of course I wouldn't and so I have decided to deal with it the best way I can. Me not talking to him or pressuring him into therapy or going to the doctor is my way of taking the pressure off. I do mention it from time to time, sometimes in a lighter tone but my point gets across. If he feels pressured to admit his deficiency to me it is going to anger him or humiliate him and that is not going to cause him to relax around me and trust me when he does decided to talk about it. I don't need him to talk about it really, I know what's going on and he's made a point of showing a lot of effection so I will know that he loves me.

It seems like he's going more out of his way lately to be with me and to tell me he loves me and to kiss me. This isn't his fault. I have to respect the way he wants to handle it. I'm the one who is having a hard time handling it but today i've given it a lot of thought and measuring the lack of sex up against all the other wonderful things about him, don't compare. I didn't expect this to happen so soon but he has been working very hard up in the canyon and his muscles are building up and that's why he's tired.

We don't really have bordellos around here and if he'd even looked at another woman I would have heard about it. We go to this nightclub once in awhile and the owner is my best friend and if he had spent time with a woman I would know about it and he told her once that if I ever thought he was flirting with someone else, I would kill him. If a man flirts with me he will tell him that i'm his and to back off so i'm not worried about that. I was in the beginning and so I just asked him if he was still attracted to me and he said of course he was.

I never speak to him in anger. I know how to talk to a man and if you do it in anger or accuse him of anything he isn't going to accept what you say. I think it surprises him that I have stayed with him when we stopped having sex regularly but I am showing him that I am a christian woman and that i'm different than a woman who is just out for herself. I've always known that God wants me to show him love and that someone decent can love him because he's had very bad relationships.

I have too. I've been married twice and not treated so well but sex was never the problem. I have so much more now because he treats me with respect and while we are very different in temperment, we both love God very much and acknowledge that he is the one who brought us together and nothing lasts without him. Yes, I get frustrated and I think he should think about how I feel but we've gone through some hard times.

He was drinking at bars when I first met him and now he doesn't go to bars and he's home with me. He's either here or up at the canyon. I respect him for volunteering and working so hard. I'm proud of him in many ways, I just think its a shame that we couldn't have a closer sexual relationship, or a sexual relationship at all but I see no reason to be mad at him for it.

Yes, I love him and have chosen to stay with him and I am trying to trust God and do the best I can but saying that, I can't say that I will be willing to give up sex for the rest of my life because i'm only 55 and I just can't see living that way unless God takes my desire away and that isn't what God wants. He made men and women to be together. I am a very strong woman and will deal with this somehow, I have days that are better than others and I think i've been very patient.

I don't know what will happen in the future, but I will say this, and he knows this already, if he ever cheated on me that would be the end of this relationship. I told him that when we first met. I may be strong but i'm not stupid. I caught him once mb in the front room and he said he was scratching, I haven't caught him since. He was so convincing I almost believed him but I know what I saw. I think he's afraid sometimes to make love to me and not be able to finish because he used to be able to make love to me three times a night and so that is hard for him.

But I leave that decision up to him, I don't pressure him and there is no way i'm going to instigate anything, other than putting on a sexy nightie, because I will not be in a position to be turned down or have him feel obligated. When he comes to bed that is usually a sign but lately he's been falling asleep. I'm going to give him a break because he works very hard up in the forest and he's doing labor that a younger man should be doing but he likes it. However, in a years time if this is worse then I will have to rethink it. He's only 65, but as I said, he spent a lot of years in bars after work, before I even met him.

And I plan on refusing any temptation that the enemy sends my way. Just as long as it isn't Johnny Depp!!!

Raymond

11th June 2011, 10:09 AM

You are choosing the better part Baroness and you musn't lose that.

The sexual side is more complicated but you musn't let it affect the good part of your marriage. That chapter has not ended yet.

Chamomile

11th June 2011, 07:39 PM

He was like this with his ex wife also (although he did cheat physically), so it is an internal thing having nothing to do with the "quality" of our relationship per se (outside of the sex act/drive problem). No, he is not working on avoiding anything (other than "hard" porn)...as I have just found he was scrolling the internet looking for hot women about five days ago.

As I mentioned earlier, he does not win the war with lust because he enjoys the battle's far too much. This is what the Lord told me when I saw the most recent website browsing he was doing. God did not mean for us to be in a perpetual life long battle over the same sin over and over. He provided us His victory if we resist the devil and decide by our will and the Spirit to avail ourselves of that victory. Trouble is, my husband thinks that if he just more clever at concealing everything from me, that means he is successful at loving me. I think that perspective is rather insidious given the effects it has on us both.

And if that were true, why am I so ashamed, and why does God want me to "Forbear"???

I take the liberty to speak this way because we share the Christian faith and I am hoping Baroness will recognise that.

Hi Forever xxx

If your h does love you deeply and values his marriage with you; you are both believers, I'm sure that things will gradually improve between you two. Have you thought about going to see a sex therapist together (if you hadn't already)? Perhaps, your h's way of thinking re. s*x and love might be deeply rooted in his own childhood? If a husband loves his wife but is unable to share sexual intimacy within marriage (in a normal way) then this may be regarded as some form of sexual dysfunction? A professional input may be useful in this type of situation? It could be this type of person may have some psychological reasons why he behaves this way that he himself may not be quite aware of?

It's good to persevere for someone you care so deeply. Yes, I was also brought to this site for my own marriage issues which I had been battling with. People on this site have inspired me quite a lot and hope we all move forward together. :) xxxx

1aokgal

13th June 2011, 04:36 PM

Dear All..

I have little to add to this discussion except to say that my marriage has made it 31 years and 19 of these bereft of any sexuality. What I have got is a man I love deeply and one I respect for his fine mind and kindness in the things he does do for me.

There were some quite awful times in the early years and I can assign
the block of time like chapters of a book. There were the angry/puzzled years, the grief stricken years, and the compromise/sublimate/substitute years. I knew my personality changed during these years when I reacted to the loss of equilibrium that the man I most trusted would betray me and cut me off. As an attractive, vivacious woman I could easily attract a man and it galled me he dared to treat me as having no value. The whole process has been a bit like Dantes inferno as we walk through the portals of loneliness, hostility, pain, anguish. I also know how easily we can go into ourselves and develop a victim mentality. No one else can understand how a woman can be held hostage to a man who won't, can't, or refuses to discuss the vacuum that is life together.

We can speak of this anomaly here. Most of us could not confide a personal shame to another except perhaps a very dear friend. I confided to my mother years ago. She derided me that a "real woman" didn't have such a problem, so I got from her the type of cruelty that typified our relationship.
A couple of my friends envied my marriage for the good looking, well spoken man I married. They said his job which takes him away for months at a time was good fortune for me. They said I had the best of both worlds a man around who makes great income, did chores, and was gone so I could live my own life. One thought me a fool to remain faithful when I had time/freedom to have another realtionship since I was the wronged party.

Today The loss does not hit me in early morning. The anger is gone. I value the man he is with me. I amended the bitterness I often felt.
I know for others here this is a hard road to walk and terribly injuring to the psyche. A woman over 50 is at her sexual peak when children are gone. She is free to explore her own sexuality. That is when life can be sweet with a couple who care for each other and can develop time that doesn't include child rearing. I feel sorry for others here and it is good there is this place where we can bring this sad subject. We can share what we learned through personal experience.

There are many things a woman can develop to bring happiness into a life that misses one component. The glass can be wonderfully full. My interest in others means I extend myself instead of pulling inward, and that heals.
Frankly, I find the conversation of God in every issue here a bit off putting. Does that mean I lack religion or faith? I think not..let us say I think a sense of humor and a discussion about other ways to develop
outside oneself would be welcome here.

1aokgal

13th June 2011, 05:00 PM

PS.....Forever, I can't imagine servicing a man as you do in place of an intimate and loving relationship. That means you are being used. Maybe he would put forth more effort to meet your needs/expectations if you don't make it too easy for him? Sounds like it all revovlves around his desires, not yours.

Don't give up. Maybe this can still be salvaged.

chosen

13th June 2011, 05:03 PM

Speaking for myself, I only mention God when the person posting is a christian, or is clearly seeking, and I feel it is appropriate. Many times I have held back from doing so.
God is central to our lives for those of us who do believe, and believe me, God has a brilliant sense of humour. I have found that out many times in the years that I have been a Christian. Thats where we all get it from in the first place.:D

Chamomile

13th June 2011, 05:59 PM

Maybe he would put forth more effort to meet your needs/expectations if you don't make it too easy for him? Sounds like it all revovlves around his desires, not yours.

Don't give up. Maybe this can still be salvaged.

Hi 1aokgal

That's what Forever seems to come across. It seems her h is constantly being worshiped and is the centre of her attention to please him..I don't buy a lot of things he says to her either. He ought to stop making up derisive excuses forever and learn to take some responsibility for his own Wife. I agree, if he continues to make effort, marriage probably can be saved. xx

Forever

13th June 2011, 07:18 PM

What I am hearing is that as long as I indulge him in any sexual activity at all, then things will remain the same? He is still endulging himself in fantacy and just using my mouth as a different "hole" to relieve himself?

About six months ago he wanted to get one of those fancy phones that have internet on them. I told him that we had already discussed why he is not the kind of man who should avail himself of one (because of his porn history). He got mad but agreed not to get one.

Last week his regular cell phone went through the washing machine and he threw it away. He replaced it with the very phone he agreed not to get, along with a private email account which comes on the phone. He has broken every single one of his promises, things which could have helped him to finish this war with his flesh. He NEVER confesses to anything or apologises when he knows he has failed in this area....I simply catch him and let him know that I know.

I am looking straight into the barrel of a divorce here if I do not do something to relieve him sexually...even if I am not interested in anything for myself. My first inclination is to just go ahead and file so I do not have to go through the drama of refusing him and his threats....or watching him turn more and more to seeking out women and blaming me for not "servicing" him.

He has the option to go another route. That is, to examine himself and repent from the heart. What should I do?

1aokgal

13th June 2011, 07:54 PM

Dear Forever..

I hate to think of your being harrassed, or feel threatnened by that situation and forced into a corner with a man who is riding roughshod over his wife. The phone got conviently washed! Seems to me this man is hell bent on making connections so for that reason you are his oral sex source? That is one sad state of affairs.

Dear Lady, you impress us all here as lovely, kind and caring. This marriage is riding over your soul. So if you gain a roof over head in exchange, it is likely only for a time. It sounds to me as if the whole thing is unravelling. He seems no willing party to improve your relationship so it is a marginal at best viable marriage!

I don't know where you are on the survival spectrum (without rereading all your posts). I don't know whether you are able to self sustain as a separated woman, so financial survival has everything to do with how a post 50 woman makes decisions for the future. There are a few in marriages that suck who will urge you to jump out there because they have a paycheck coming into the house. It is easy to give advice because YOU are the one in that situation.

They may never have worked a job that barely made ends meet or struggled to survive so one can urge you to do that. I know all that business because I experienced it years back. If a woman has a good job and family who can be there when need arises, then a woman can throw a bad marriage to the ashcan.

If I were the judge here I would say you do not have the love, respect or kindness that you have a right to expect as a human being. For that, I am deeply sorry to say it and sorry that you have such pain. You must confront your H in whatever diplomatic mode you can and ask him point blank if he is there with you on the long term..because you are going it alone, except when he needs outlet. You are at a point in life where you assess if there is a tomorrow that is better? It better start now..and with you..to make a decision to lose this man....or shape it and live with it. Frankly, it sounds more like first part. Is there a way you can go away for a week ..visit friend or relative and leave him with some thoughts?

I would go that route or you make an appointment for you both for counselling ansd see if he shows. If not, you got your answer. I think he is not there for the long term. Actions speak louder than words and his actions says he does not care WHAT you do. You deserve better. You are not too old to begin IF you can support such a decision but it is a tough world out there. The new poor are divorced women with or without children. So unless you have a trade, think carefully. If you stay ..it seems he is outbound anyway to me.

God bless you.

Forever

13th June 2011, 08:35 PM

Washing the phone was an accident...I was actually the one doing the laundry.

I have my own business and can support myself. I was planning the next time he approached me for his "oral relief" to simply tell him that I am unable to do that for him any more. Of course this will open a whole debate about what my "Christian duties" are, and I will have to explain to him that I have had enough shame and humiliation being used...that as long as he continues to indulge himself with his "excitations" (his words) of other women I cant see what I, as his wife, should have to do with him. He does not seem to have solid moral convictions....he knows that I know this and it seems that it is the power he enjoys over me. My love for him makes me vulnerable for pain of this nature....sometimes I think he actually enjoys that.

I want him to just go and enjoy his affair with the world....I do not want any part of that.

1aokgal

13th June 2011, 09:05 PM

Forever...

Regardless, with the phone he was quick to replace one with internet which you had discussed in past.

I don't get it at all that you allow the use of yourself as his disposal. I understand lovemaking and oral sex, where both enjoy this, but not in the mode going there. I bet my bottom dollar his past marriage did not include that on the menu. He does ZIP for you.

When he approaches for the oral fix..say not only "NO"..say "HELL NO." It is time to close down the factory, the worker is being mistreated.

Respectfully posted here for you is my hope you will look at this relationship microscopically. Life is too short to get such few returns.
I assure you that there is better for you than this. If he does not clean up his act, please weigh your alternatives as treatment w/counselling for both, or just you, or a separation for a time.

Forever

13th June 2011, 09:16 PM

I offered oral sex for his release as a replacement for me not having to expose my body (which is not attractive enough) during regular types of sex. I do not want to have sex with him anymore, so I offered that much so he might start thinking about our issues deeper, while at the same time, he could not use his "not having any release" as an excuse to find it elsewhere.

His past marriage consisted of everything sexually under the sun, including anal sex which she loathed. She felt she had to comply because he is intelligent and would spin it that way, I would not. Even there, he cheated on her and even eventually approached their teen daughter for sex...that was the end of their marriage. He has deep moral issues.

But I guess I am at the place that I dont care anymore if he goes elsewhere....so I am going to cut him off sex entirely and let the cards fall where they may.

1aokgal

13th June 2011, 10:33 PM

Baroness,

Forget the herbs, go for the heavy duty Viagara if his Dr. prescribes this in this situation. The problem is not the ED, it is the failure of the relationship he does not experience how his problem effects the relationship. You seem to have good things but he has pulled inward as men will sometimes do rather than address a fixable problem. if it is physical, it can usually be repaired or fixed. If the problem is emotional, as many of these men are damaged, than forget the miracle repairs.

This is all a complex problem and whether the relationship can be mended depends on clear speaking about your emotional feelings for your H. If you care for him maybe he will seek help. We have all been through these sad moments.

1aokgal

14th June 2011, 01:13 AM

Dear Forever...

You are wrong. Throwing this man a bone for his deviant sexual nature defies logic to what is in this marriage for you. Financially, emotionally and in every way, think what you gain from this marriage.

If you knew he had sex with his X-wife and that she hated parts and he pushed anyway, then I can't see what you found in him to sign on there for the long term. If he told you these things.... that she had this sex... maybe that was a way to make you feel deficient unless you went along with the program..his sexual agenda. Yes, it sounds as if he has some serious moral issues. I would especially wonder about his taste for young girls.

You are worth so much more than what is being returned to you. You don't even feel worthwhile and that is what he has placed there. I think you should find a co-dependent group in your area if there is one and go where you can talk about these issues. In your place, I wouldn't give him the time of day.

Take a few days and go on holiday and treat yourself to a facial and a mini-shopping trip. Have a lunch away with a friend. You need a breath of fresh air. You need hope to believe there is better for you. Being alone is better than being forced to perform for your dinner.

Sorry, if I am really outspoken but I feel you are in a bad place.

Baroness

14th June 2011, 02:33 AM

I agree with chosen and I for one find much comfort talking with people who believe in God as I do. I don't know how I would make it without God. Well, not much has changed since the last time I wrote except that he seems to be more attentive. I spent the night with a girlfriend of mine saturday night. She lives near me and I will do this once in awhile because we've been friends for over thirty years.

I'm refering to an earlier thread of telling your friends about you life and them not understanding or making it worse. I discovered a little while ago that I can't tell her about how I feel about this situation because she is single and hasn't had sex in 20 years and is very judgemental of him and me. She doesn't know gabby and he doesn't care for her negative attitude so I remain friends with her but she isn't a christian so doesn't see that aspect of things.

She is also domineering and so her advice is to shove things at him, to just tell him the way its going to be and force him to listen and that isn't the way to handle this situation or any other, for that matter. When I came home sunday morning there was a red vase of a dozen red roses on the kitchen table with a little note that said 'I appreciate you for being so understanding. And I do love you.'

I was thrilled and very shocked and thought he was referring to me understanding about our lack of sex but when I asked him about it he wouldn't admit anything, just said he missed me and changed the subject. While I was gone he stopped in at the bar where we know the owner and had a few beers. He does this once in awhile.

We've spent a lot of time together lately including last night but he hasn't slept with me, nothing has changed there but i'm starting to think less of that and more of the beautiful roses and how he doesn't object when I go spend time with my friend. I don't do it a lot but every once in awhile its good to get out.

I went to the doctor today and found out I have osteroarthritus which is arthritus in the spine area and there is no cure. I also found out that i've been doing everything right concerning it with the over the counter pills I take. This morning I was in a lot of pain because I had a pinched nerve and realized that sometimes i'm not in any shape to have sex because of my back.

I've been complaining about it and the truth is our sex is kind of intense and physical and I don't think I could do it all the time, but some of the time would be nice. I've had the opportunity to discuss sex with him but we were having a good time together and didn't want to bring him down. Anyway, be bought me the roses and thanked me for being understanding and that kind of says it all.

Our relationship is not perfect but we still love each other and I do get frustrated once in awhile but i'm trying to focus not so much on the sex part. Thinking of him mb in there still upsets me but since i'm not sure when its happening I try to push it aside. I'm sure he has ed but also he could be withdrawing a little because he's not sure if sex would hurt my back. Whatever the reason, I thought it was nice of him to get the roses.

When we first got together I had to take care of him because he came down with a serious back condition and was flat on his back and I had to do everything for him for months. He had a herniated disc and was in a lot of pain and so I was very patient with him. Now my back problem isn't as serious but its his turn to be understanding. I thought it could just be fixed but there is no fixing with arthritus.

At least now I know what it is and he was right there by my side in the doctor's office. I feel better now but kind of sad that this won't go away. However; I do not rule out God's intervention, but at least now I know. I was there for him when we hadn't been together that long and now he's here for me and isn't that really what counts?

I'm not saying I will just forget about not having a physical relationship with him but I have let go of my anger and resentment and who is to say that we won't still have one? I think its very special when you can find someone to really trust without having to know every single thing about them. We have this space, we give it gladly because I don't need him to answer to me for everything.

I will bring up what's happening but its already happening so what would I have to gain by having him say the words? I have no need to hear him admit he's not the man he used to be. I think its more important for me to love him and support him and make him feel like even though he's getting older I will still love him and he can trust me with anything he wants to talk about.

I couldn't have a man who constantly told me what to do or wanted to control me or was jealous all the time, and quite frankly, I couldn't be with a younger man who wanted to have intense sex all the time either. I just ask for it every once in awhile, after all i'm getting older too but sex was the one thing we always did very well together, well, most of the time. I feel like he needs my understanding now, that he's looking to me to see if the fact that he can't perform like he used to doesn't make my love for him any less.

Yes, he could make more of an effort. Perhaps counseling would have helped but I have no great need to hear him say the words and to admit something that i'm sure is very hard for him. I've decided to accept him the way he is and for now also the way our relationship is. I will know the right time to bring this up if I feel I need to.

I guess i'm just trying to say that I think I can deal with this. I have to deal with my own issues regarding this arthritus and i'm trying not to dwell on the sex thing so much. Isn't it more important that two people love each other and work well together and can trust one another? I'm not making excuses, i'm just saying that God brought us together and i'm not so vain as to think I could choose someone better than God did.

At least he doesn't cheat on me or look at other women. I think he knows that would never fly with me. It's all about being respectful of one another. You can have sex with anyone, even great sex, but can you truly trust that person and build a good life together?

chosen

14th June 2011, 08:55 AM

chosen

14th June 2011, 09:02 AM

Baroness, That all sounds as if you are thinking this through and apart from this problem, you do seem to have a good man there.That is precious.
I also agree that asking for help from other believers is precious and important sometimes, whether that be here or elsewhere. After all God cares about every part of our lives and is with us in all of it all the time. In the end, He is the one who helps us through.

Chamomile

14th June 2011, 11:28 AM

Even there, he cheated on her and even eventually approached their teen daughter for sex...that was the end of their marriage. He has deep moral issues.

That's not just "liking young girls" but that's also an incest? That makes you wonder if he's the type of man who'd feed on immoral, illegal, forbidden sexual fantasies?
xx

Chamomile

14th June 2011, 11:36 AM

He does not seem to have solid moral convictions....he knows that I know this and it seems that it is the power he enjoys over me. My love for him makes me vulnerable for pain of this nature....sometimes I think he actually enjoys that.

Following your posts, I tend to think that he can well be described as some sort of psychological sadist. It sounds like he enjoys forced act of s**imposed on women who are unwilling. If he's into s**with vulnerable women, no wonder you're not getting much joy out of this man. You are an independent woman. Why lower yourself?

xx

Chamomile

14th June 2011, 11:44 AM

Yes, he could make more of an effort. Perhaps counseling would have helped but I have no great need to hear him say the words and to admit something that i'm sure is very hard for him. I've decided to accept him the way he is and for now also the way our relationship is. I will know the right time to bring this up if I feel I need to.

It's all about being respectful of one another. You can have sex with anyone, even great sex, but can you truly trust that person and build a good life together?

Hi Baroness

If you already know the answer you were looking for, I personally don't think counseling would be the best idea (at least for now) I'm sure he tried to communicate his issues by thanking you for being understanding. That seems to be his romantic way of explaining and showing appreciation. Again, sexual peak disparity between men and women can cause this type of upset.

xxx

Raymond

14th June 2011, 01:17 PM

You have a good marriage Baroness and that is precious.

The glass is half full not half empty. Personally I do not think the sexual problem is insurmountable. Taking the pressure out and putting God first like you are doing is wise. I think as you pray about this you will see answers that you didn't even think about.

Raymond

14th June 2011, 01:28 PM

When he approaches for the oral fix..say not only "NO"..say "HELL NO." It is time to close down the factory, the worker is being mistreated.

There is some truth in that from 1okgal. It is not so much that OS is wrong but that the worker is being mistreated and cheated on. I know that worker is the wrong word to use in marriage but there does seem to be some truth in it here in the way that Forever is being used.

1aokgal

14th June 2011, 05:11 PM

Dear Baroness,

It seems you are at peace most of the time with the issues of age, illness and the changes that occur along that cycle. We all remember when we could make love all afternoon. Life was beautiful and there was zest and vitality. Most of the posters here seem to be post 50 so we all fall in the spectrum somewhere that there are natural changes that occur in a marriage as time passes. We all expected that one day things might change with age. What we did not prepare for was that our mate might unilaterally decide (for reasons we can't fathom) that the intimacy, so important for health and well being, was no longer important.

This for me is the death of the expectations I had about my marriage. It is funny but my H described me the other day. He said he thought I was, "almost a perfect person" that he ever knew. I thought it was said in jest (or even cynical), as did he think I acted perfect? He then proceeded to tell me the many accomplishments he values about me, as my art work or my seeing to details and keeping finances on keel. I was surprised and deeply flattered he thinks of me that way. Yet, it translated in my mind as, "Well, if that is true, than where am I so lacking there is no desire to be with me?" So that shows that the psyche (for me and other women) is wounded by this failure to understand what could be such a wall between us.

I know he compliments me all the time on appearance or things I do. He takes my feelings into account as "What would you like to do?"
So he is a thoroughly nice man who holds my hand and has no internet friends. Yet, that deep comfort of the intimate closeness was gone years ago. I see life ahead as it is today, pretty much the same. If value is there, it is because I brought happiness from other channels into my life. I think, Baroness, you are on the same pathway. Your H values you and shows you that you are very important. So the only hope you have is to play off his affection for you to diplomatically ask that he pursue if he can be a better man for you. That means he might schedule a physical and see if there is a problem that is fixable. If he is content with life as it stands, then you can do no more and you will go through some down times.

My husband survived Cancer last year. He still has some Med issues ahead for next year but he is back at his very hard job. I would not have expected such an illness with him since he is mid 50's. Cancer is the great equalizer. No one is so young, rich, beautiful or talented that Cancer does not bring all to the door and on the level that we see life differently. I always knew I loved the man deeply and fervently, like a prayer one can say in a whisper. He is good like the sun that rises because he has always cared for me, as others I loved in the past, did not. I learned I could count on him to care for my welfare. It is true I scratched to survive some years ago and held down two jobs, etc. to reach a point I had real security. He provides all that he can to see if something happened to him, I would do alright. Last year he refused to have me present when he had Chemo as he felt I had been through enough with an illness I had years back. He went alone to his treatment sessions by his insistence. He said to sit there among the human train wrecks of death and dying was hard. I was there when he had two surgeries performed.

I remember when my H leaned over my own hospital bed, post surgery a few years before this happened, at 5AM each day before he went to work. He stopped off at the hospital to visit so early in the morning before his long days, to help me and reassure me I would soon be home. His was devotion beyond what I ever knew a man to do.
So I think, Baroness, you are blessed as well to live beside a man who shows you his devotion, which is separate than these other issues.
Love survives in devoted hearts and beyond flesh.
Faith is what we recognize is the master plan. When it seems there are no answers we can find peace in the quiet place inside each of us we know God lives.

1aokgal

14th June 2011, 06:11 PM

Raymond,
As adults, we all accept there are few sexual practices that are wrong between consenting adults in the context of a marriage. Coersion, intimidation or having to accomadate another to "keep the peace" is harmful to a partner. I would say it is emotionally devastating that one would feel it necessary to service another.

I agree the man gets off on pushing his partners to do things they feel uncomfortable doing, as the description of the X-wife. There are power trips going on from this man and really, he sounds morally bankrupt.
Let us say there are issues that make this marriage unpalatable!

chosen

14th June 2011, 07:03 PM

However there are times that we can have sex for our spouses sake whether we ourselves 'feel' like it or not surely? Or should be we just be able to keep on and on saying no for no particual reason?Can we not have sex just because we love our spouse and want to please them even if we ourselves may not want it or feel like it at that time?

I am not talking about situations where there is abuse or porn use or cases like forevers which are so painful, but in normal marriages where there is no real reason to refuse.
There seem to be so many marriages where one refuses for no real reason, and the other is hurt and frustrated. Its sad. Where is the selflesness and giving that should be in a marriage?

Helen_uk

14th June 2011, 09:58 PM

Do you think though chosen that in fact that is making love rather than sex ? There will always be times where we don't initially feel we want to make love but our OH does...or we do and they don't . Done with love it can still be an enjoyable experience.

But to have sex, oral or otherwise when a partner is so condemning of us, stating in fact there is no physical attraction, that to me is wrong .

Forever , you speak such good sense on here , you help countless people. It saddens me to read your posts on this thread. I think you know what you need to do, and have had plenty of advice here but I felt I just had to comment and show my support for you.

chosen

14th June 2011, 11:18 PM

Helen I agree and that is why I said that in cases like foerever's or where there are other wrong things going on, then that changes it. However there are those who just refuse sex for no reason, or because they are using it to control their spouse and get what they want. I know of cases like this.
Anyone who refuses sex for no reason is depriving their spouse and their marriage of so much.
But If one spouse is deeply hurting the other then its perfectly understandable why they dont want sex.Who would want sex with a man who is fantazising about young girls when they have sex and who makes it perfectly clear her that he doesnt find her attractive? Its horrible.

Baroness

15th June 2011, 01:21 AM

There has never been a time with this man where I have not wanted to make love. With my first husband, yes, but i'm very different now. My h hasn't cheated, doesn't look at other women, and doen't make love to me either. He denies there is a problem and is too proud to go to a doctor and tell him about it or go for counseling or even admit anything to me. In fact, he pretends like there is no problem.

If I got viagra somehow he wouldn't take it and he won't go get it himself and as for the herbs which I have checked out and find them safe and beneficial, the only way he'd take them is if I put them in his food. I don't think he would knowingly take something like that. Meanwhile, I just found out I have Osteoarthritus and sex is the last thing on my mind right now. I can't believe that I have this condition, and in the spine and there is no cure.

I don't have a job, i'm basically dependent on him right now, and now I can't get a full time job because of my back, is it any wonder I came on here origianally because I was depressed? I think Forever's husband is a sick individual and she needs to get away from him. That isn't even a healthy relationship anymore and since she can support herself then this is what she should do.

If I could support myself right now or had money even, I would go somewhere for awhile, to my mom's or take a small vacation because all of this seems to be too much. I kept thinking last night that I will never be better,I will always have this. I'd thought it would be taken care of and had no idea. Of course I can't talk to him about this, I talked to my mother and daughter and God.

There is nothing I can do about the way my man feels physically or mentally. We have gone through a lot together and for some reason God wants me where I am right now. Learning about this condition was shocking to me and yet he was there with me, but I just don't care about sex right now. Even though all this is happening you know what I did today? I cleaned my venetian blinds and windows.

I feel better doing something than sitting around and doing nothing. I am with a nice man and yet he is very stubborn in that he won't talk about what's happening. I feel this is doomed and maybe it was from the start because we are so different and yet the love has remained. But now I have this condition that will keep me from working full time, I can't stand or sit for long periods of time and for me this is devastating.

I'm so tired. Tired physically and tired of thinking about what is going on in his mind. But even though all of this is happening to me and it might look like its hopeless, I still love God very much and i'm still trusting in him. I can't believe this is happening to me, either situation. Who knew I'd be in any kind of relationship without sex? Who thought i'd ever have arthritus in the spine area?

It makes me wonder what God is doing in my life, why am I having all these problems and all at once? All I know is that I have to take care of myself and I have to lean on God's understanding because I don't understand any of it. No, my man doesn't look at other women or watch porn, but he acts like i'm not alive a lot of the time and its like he feels nothing. No sexual desire at all.

I'm living with it because I have to. I can't go running off like someone with money or connections. This is my home and I can't leave it. I don't know what's going to become of me or even me and him but i'm not leaving him just because i'm depressed over having arthritus. I wish I had a man I could just go to and have him hold me and tell me everything is going to be all right.

Things are just happening too fast and they are mostly bad. But perhaps tomorrow will be a better day and maybe i'm still in shock. I'm reading about couples wanting other things in sex or one of them wanting something the other is not willing to give.

Gabby and I were matched pretty perfectly in bed. He did everything exactly like I wanted it and in turn I did my best to please him and it was great. There was never a time when we approached each other and the other one didn't want sex. Until now.

I don't approach him because I couldn't handle being turned down or to have him do it because he felt obligated. That's why this is so hard now, because he was fantastic and we were perfect together and now we are never together and I feel as though we are wasting our lives together when it could be so much more.

1aokgal

15th June 2011, 02:39 AM

Dear Baroness...

The saddest part of the loss of sex with one we care about is the loss of just physical closeness. One wants to be held and reassured about this illness and that comfort is missing. I can identify with that because when I found I had a serious problem that I just live with, I hoped I could reach out to him and could not.

That rejection before was long before this, but it was especially important to me during that time. If you see these movies and something horrible happens, then you see that these couples reach for each other...I was no different. It worked in movies, not with us.

You have my sympathy with the arthritis. I have a penpal friend who lives with this and she has difficulties and is mid 40's. The thing I see is these men have a wall down and if you talk about these things..our feelings about these issues....the shutter comes down..BANG. It is like a curtain falls and there is no reply and not even a nod of the head it is heard. Yet, he tells me I am loved. So I guess what you have there is basically the same. Total tune out.

It is our problem, Baroness, because there will be no resolution in any form as I see it. Make your life happy with your family and take up something you enjoy. It is painting and my business interests, pets and the home and such. My husband leaves Monday for 3 months as he is away 6 months of the year. that means my evenings are free to sew, paint and do my thing. So, I come to think it is easier to live with this scene because of that. He threw away a lot in both our lives but I can't feel victimized or I would be depressed. Activity keeps me from thinking too much.

If there were answers, we could find them here as we sure approach this from all life experiences. I never thought I would be part of this "club" either, Baroness. Who would imagine a man would not want to be with his wife?
We know ir is NOT about us it is what is inside the man so that means you can't internalize this as shameful or fault or something we lacked to do. Tell him "no?" Never happened! One may not be in the mood but an amorous moment sure can turn that around for most couples. We heard that both woemn and men can be dysfunctional so it is effecting many
regardless of sex.

He

chosen

15th June 2011, 05:09 AM

baroness
I do sympathise about the arthritis. I started an arthritic condition in my late 30's and while it has slightly improved now, I do get stiffness and sometimes pain in my knees, hands,fingers, hips and feet and neck especially if I do too much. Also sometimes coming down or going up stairs isnt easy and my knee joints sounds so crackly!Wasnt expecting to get something like that so young and at 55, 2 of my fingers are swollen and stiff as well. I do believe that prayer has helped it to improve, so maybe ask those at your church to pray for you as well.
I have found that avioding ALL white flour helps it. So that means only wholemeal bread, pastry, rice and pasta. Also aviod white sugar and only eat fruit sugar. I do notice if I have some while flour,that the joints get worse, so maybe this many help you.
God Bless

Raymond

15th June 2011, 09:31 AM

Also the doctors word is not the last word Baroness if you have faith so don't receive it as such. I am not saying that you deny the illness but what answer do you see in scripture. Try reading Isaiah 53. Don't give up without a fight. The battle in our bodies is all part of it.

It is interesting the points on sexual refusal. I agree with all comments of 1okgal, Chosen and Helen. I think there is a balanced picture there that you have built together.

My wife has never ever refused me but has stated that there were one or two things she is not comfortable with and I have received that and am guided by it. Love doesn't force.
Point being that it is not necessarily sexual refusal to be uncomfortable with certain things. Each couple finds their own relationship where they are both happy.

Chamomile

15th June 2011, 11:13 AM

But to have sex, oral or otherwise when a partner is so condemning of us, stating in fact there is no physical attraction, that to me is wrong .

Forever , you speak such good sense on here , you help countless people. It saddens me to read your posts on this thread. I think you know what you need to do, and have had plenty of advice here but I felt I just had to comment and show my support for you.

Hi

I often think Forever's h can't be telling the truth when he says there's no physical attraction. (He seems to manage getting his needs met sexually in front of his w?) I truly think this man enjoys looking at wife's reaction to his mental cruelty. What amazes me is, his attitude as if all women ought to be having those "porn star" breasts augmentation that stick far right out like a pair of footballs mounted on their chest. Whilst they may be expected by porn industry (particularly in the US) or in any other adult industry, they aren't really normal by any standard. Certainly, maybe, some reality check would be useful for him. He himself isn't exactly a .. Adonis ...or a "porn star" is he?????? He must be so so so deluded to treat his own Wife the way he has been.

I completely agree with what 1aokgal had summarized. Living apart for such a long time must have been really hard for you (to say like this, it must be an understatement). About illnesses. Yes, they do hit us hard. One of my oldest friends (mid-50s) has been through Chemo for her advanced cancer and I know roughly what you are talking about. I'm not in her age group yet but I'm always aware that anything could happen in life; I lived a long enough life so far. There had been terrible things but there were also good things.

As for sexuality of men, they do seem to have constant needs probably not like average women do. I essentially read that's why men pay for s** and that's an expense worth paying for him, they say. I personally don't think there are many women who pay for s** the way men do seem to be more willing to do (not passing any moral judgment). Mind you, not every man will pay for s** Once I heard that this was backed by some scientific basis that good s** is essential for male well-being and to keep his prostate healthy. So, in a way, healthy males need to have regular s** to keep his health a tip top condition. So, when I found my h's profile on a dating site whilst I was ill over the course of 2 yrs (I have Epilepsy). I did not take this personally whilst my grievances were heard (by him) and rather in a repeated fashion, increasing in intensity,,,,lol He denied and denied and he even said someone stolen his identity...Well, at that point, I gave up in getting the whole truth about him seeking "passionate" ladies/lady also promising a "relationship" on that site....... Anyway, he didn't have much luck on that dating site. Whether he had posted it himself or someone else who stole his identify (!) as he says, my point was, if your man is not getting it at home....HE will seek else where. We never stopped being intimate whilst I was ill but to him, as I gather, Quality wasn't good enough..!! To him, I guess, sexual part of him is a necessity, satisfied within marriage (ideal) but if not, he probably will go down other way (at least mine and those who pretend that they are single and available whilst married, on a dating site(s)) to look else where..........

If this happened again some times in the future, I will not be hanging around. The thing was, he still loved me as his Wife when I was ill. Love goes beyond S**. It's more spiritual. It was precious and it's not like he was one of those men who regularly pay for s** or meet with random women casually (again, not passing any judgment; I don't mind about men who do these things but I don't want to be in a relationship where my h does this type of a risky behaviour when he is with me).

xxx

chosen

15th June 2011, 11:53 AM

Raymond

15th June 2011, 12:49 PM

Thanks for restoring some sanity Chosen. Of course sex belongs only with one's wife (physically and mentally). There should be no refusal as then we would be under temptation as 1 Cor 7 points out. (Sorry 1okgal and Helen but this is the christian part of the site).

Helen's point was about using one's wife for sex when we were not really accepting them physically. There is a big difference in using someone and accepting them in the sexual sense physically. As a man I know the difference and it is not right what he is doing.

Chamomile

15th June 2011, 01:10 PM

Chamomile
If a man is prepared to go looking for women to have sex with while his wife is ill(or at any other time) that is appalling behaviour, and that man isnt worth having in my opinion. My husbands ex was ill for nearly a year at one time, and they never had sex during that time, and he never would have dreamt of looking elsewhere.
Obviously the temptation will always be greater if a wife deines her husband for long periods of time(or the other way round), but temptation can be resisted.
My MIL threw her husband out of her bedroom after she had got what she wanted (her 2 sons) as far as we know she never had sex with him again and they divorced about 25 years later. Then when we saw her 5 years ago (she is in Australia)she told my DH that she thinks he may have had an affair during this 25 years of no sex. I mean what did she expect after all that time??? Crazy.

Dear Chosen

I hear you and thank you for that extra good thought for me.

As you so correctly describe how bad it does look..My h "knew" it was a fatal offense enough for me to consider a divorce (and most likely, vice versa) and therefore he never, ever admited that he had indeed, posted such a profile on a dating site (I think). He did say afterwards that he had thought that I didn't want him anymore (whilst I was seriously ill..it's not like I was fully functional). We began to talk.

It was ONLY too blatantly obvious that it was his, from the way he wrote and photo albums no matter how many time he had insisted that the profile wasn't his. He had denied it adamantly and I nearly believed him as he was getting more convincing each time we discussed. Even after my pleas to take it down, he hadn't, insisting that it wasn't his and therefore, there's no way to take it down. Photos must have been stolen and such, which would be simply so far fetched. Then, I really started to think this was the case and it crossed my mind that we could be back to normal again (but then I "know" that is not the case, unfortunately) I started to wonder all he wanted to look, was looking at women on that dating site for his MB.

Since there was some useful thread on looking at sensual images/porn/MB with contributions by your good self and others, I did bring this up with him of late (and repeatedly) and he said he did not realize MB, looking at other women and "sexy" images can kill off sex drive towards his wife. Sometimes, it's so hard to believe how naive both of us have been! Since, his profile has been vanished since he "complained about its fraudulent profile about him" to the site's customer service (!) I'm still not sure if the profile is set "hidden" or it had been deleted.

I'm really not sure if I should bring up this subject at the couple counseling at the moment. I'm not sure if I should believe that "he didn't know I still wanted him" when I was very ill. I believe his words but I really wished he admitted that he joined that dating site because of what he had thought at the time (which I will understand) and I would have been able to come to closure at this better rather than him expecting me to buy this far fetched invention that the profile wasn't even his (which is obviously a lie).

xxx