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Joanna

13th June 2005, 10:25 PM

I've read a few threads where the wife is not interested in sex - my problem is the opposite. My husband is completely uninterested in sex - a situation which has gone on for six years now, since the birth of our son. In that time, we have made love about 5 times!
I feel very depressed about this, especially as I would like another baby.
Whenever I try to talk to him about this, he goes into his "cave" ie he goes all silent and moody, and barely says a word to me for days on end.
I try to be hopeful, but then end up disappointed when nothing happens, again, and end up feeling very hurt, rejected and depressed.
Are there any other women out there who have experienced this?

Kate

14th June 2005, 09:04 PM

Dear Joanna,

I wonder if your husband is actually as miserable as you about the situation, and sees himself as a failure but doesn't know what to do about it. He may need reassurance of your love for him and affirmation.

Since you have posted here, I wonder whether you are a Christian. If so, there are some books that might help you - The Act of Marriage (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/chapel/healthchristian/actofmar/) and Intended for Pleasure (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/books/intendpleas/).

Best wishes

Kate

Altered Heart

16th June 2005, 01:25 AM

Dear Joanna,
I wanted to write to you earlier this week but my schedule didn't allow, and I am sorry for that because I know first hand how anxious we can become when we reach out for help and feel the answers are perhaps around the corner.
The fact is, that a sexless marriage is a complex thing. Your situation could be very simple and as easy to solve as talking it out with one another as 'Kate' suggested. However, on the other hand your situation could be one that I have found myself struggling with for 27 yrs. My husband can't 'explain' .. he loves me .. yet he has no sexual drive. "Its not about me' .... hmmmm Can he even begin to fathom how much hearing those words hurt?
You left alot of initial information out as to our your relationship was prior to the birth of your child.Was your sexual life and the intimacy good? Or has it always been poor and just declined further?
I wanted you to know that you are not alone ... Its just that many people male & female don't talk about it ~ Thank You for having the courage to reach out.

Joanna

17th June 2005, 09:29 AM

Dear Altered Heart

Thank-you so much for your reply and understanding - that means more than I can explain! I feel for you, too - I cannot imagine another year like this, let alone 22!

You asked about our relationship before our boy was born - -well, it wasn't brilliant, but at leas we managed to have a baby! The birth was very traumatic, and this affected both of us for some time. My husband has also been running his own business, and for a time the stress of this caused him some depression. All this contributed.

However, I now feel it is time to let go of these hurts and move on - to heal. But he is still stuck, and also doesn't want to talk - he resorts to completely stonewalling me if I try to bring it up.

In most other respects our marriage is good, I have never been unfaithful, and I do not suspect him of this. Our roles within the marriage are well defined.

At the moment I feel between a rock and a hard place. I want to tell him how depressed I am feeling - I feel it is getting a little out of hand and I may need some counselling. I plunged quite low after the weekend. It was our wedding anniversary and I had hoped for some intimacy. He, however, seems fairly oblivious to this, and just watched telly! Since then, he seems more affectionate, and I feel that if I say anything now, he will just get back in his stonewall cave, and this will make me even more depressed!

What do you think I should do?

Sorry to unload all this, but thanks for listening (reading)!
Joanna

janele234

27th June 2005, 10:50 PM

My husband and I are going through the same thing. He says he loves me but just has no interest in sex. We are in marriage counseling right now. I'm glad to know I'm not alone. It is so depressing.

ChristianWife

2nd December 2005, 04:38 PM

Since your husband is more affectionate when you don't talk about the "problem" (sex), maybe you should try not talking about it for awhile. Although it is not normal for him not to want sex, it could be that he feels that you are critical of him when you bring it up and that may make him withdraw even more. Be sweet, be affectionate, show admiration in all other areas and his sexual drive may just come back on his own. And if it doesn't, don't wait for him to initiate, try initiating yourself. I am also wondering if there are any other issues, i.e. weight gain from your pregnancy. If yes, he may not want to hurt you by telling you that he doesn't find you as attractive as before. In that case, try to exercise and lose some weight.

Joanna

3rd December 2005, 10:58 AM

Dear ChristianWife

Thank-you for your comments, to which I would like to reply. First, though, I would like to re-cap on some of the words featured in standard marriage vows:-

to love, cherish, to have and to hold, for better or worse, till death do us part

Please note the absence of phrases such as "as long as I feel like it" or "as long as you still fit into a size 10". Also refer to 1 Corinthians 7 v1-5.

OK then - I agree that its better to be sweet and affetionate rather than constantly demanding. But when months slip into years, this gets increasingly difficult. Its about give and take, but when one partner is not giving, then reservoirs begin to run dry. And yes, I do pray to God to fill them back up again, and He does, but I am only human. And yes again, I do try and initiate sex and intimacy, but again the walls come up, and a stony silence ensues.

It would perhaps appear that it would be better and easier to not say or do anything in the hope that "his sexual drive may just come back on his own". But I do not see any hope of this happening. And if I look back in 10 years time, and see that the only reason that we have not had another baby is that we have not resolved this situation, then I am going to feel very bitter and resentful, and this will threaten the health and even existance of our marriage.

I think that the level of hurt and rejection experienced by a woman in a situation like this is difficult to understand by someone who has not been there. I feel very hurt and damaged, and even if my husband were to say to me tonight, with a twinkle in his eye, "lets have an early night, sweetheart", I would still have alot of healing to do. I feel that he has taken the gift of my sexuality, which I gave to him alone on our wedding night, and has looked at it, considered it rubbish and tossed it aside. This may or may not be the case, but's how I feel. And I would like him to realise and acknowledge that his actions (or lack of them) have had an impact on me and have hurt me, regardless of whether that was his intention.

I have a great deal more to say to say on this, but I think thats enough for now. Once you start, its difficult to stop! I appreciate any comments, but please dont assume this is a superficial or easy to resolve problem.

J

gsquash

8th December 2005, 06:28 PM

Do you know very much about your husband's past i.e before you were married, childhood etc?? I think that experiences that we have been through before marriage can massively effect how we are in marriage. Also think about your past experiences aswell. My husband and I are currently going through some really deep stuff that goes right back and the strange thing is that I had made some inner vows in my teens towards men - It's quite hard to explain but the inner vows that I had made were preventing my marriage from being whole. if you've heard of John and Carol Arnott then look at some of their teaching on this stuff it's fantastic. Are you and your husband part of a church??

Keep praying, God's heart is for your marriage to be whole - it may take some work and time - pray that God will begin to soften your husbands heart so you can open up lines of communication.

LOVE
gemma

Joanna

9th December 2005, 10:30 AM

Gemma

Thank-you for your encouragement. Yes, we are part of a great church, and I am part of a really supportive ladies group, where I have been able to share discreetly with wise and understanding ladies. Because of my H's lack of communication on this subject, I don't know, but I doubt, whether he has shared with anyone - but I am praying that he will.

I have considered the inner vow issue, especially as my husband once said something to make me think along these lines, and yopur post was a confirmation of this. I will certainly look up John and Carol Arnott. I would ideally love for us both to attend counselling, but I think that he is a long way from agreeing to this.

Thank-you again,

Joanna

1aokgal

26th April 2007, 07:09 AM

Dear Joanna.......

I appreciate your posting concerning feelings you have about your marriage and the abstinence of any sexual relationship with your husband.
I share this problem as well for many years pattern..13 years..with the man I married... 26 years ago..and dearly love today.
There is such grief to lose the part of life that should be a woman's right to know love and physical intimacy within marriage. There are no other women or explanations from him. He won't discuss the matter. Basically, to him there is no problem.

While I am told daily that I am loved by a man who does things for my comfort. I can feel little emotional connection sometimes and wish I could talk with him enough to uncover the problems. No, he was never abused or such. He just puts too much into his work life and not enough to our life at times. I remember an annniversary day cruise ten years ago. All couples aboard had anniversary and were excited to share a happy day. Photos were taken and you can see in my face the knowledge that for me it was an empty show.

My happiness is through my paintings, children, music and a close friend who knows the truth. I can at least speak of this and have some emotional support.

This assexualism is often seen as if the woman has somehow failed. She is judged not exciting enough or sexual enough or attractive. I remember my mother said she never had "that problem" in her marriage. I felt punished again to be so judged.

This problem is far more common than is thought. The advice columns continue to exploit women as one who is frigid or not interested in the sexual part of marriage. I say there are many men who act pretty normal and have low libido and no interest. I know this too well. I have been very fortunate to keep in my heart a man I repect who is decent and works hard for my welfare. It is a great shame he does not wake up to the loss of the years without intimacy.

Do not let the years slip by without trying every tool for change from counselling to medical evaluation. We tried some of this but I think he is happy with things as they stand. We survive alright as long as I do not discuss the problem. It helps a little to post here and hear others and how they cope. I try to produce beautiful paintings and feel happy when I do them.

mermaid

29th September 2007, 04:47 AM

Dear Altered Heart, thank you for sharing that you've had the same sex-less problem for 27 years; I have too, for over 26 years and I can't go on another year! I am an enforced celibate and it's dreadfully wrong on the part of our husbands to score the verses out that commands them to be our lovers and to love us wholeheartedly; they have no excuse! I also feel ugly and rejected and used to climb the walls with frustration, now I don't like my husband, and I don't think he is a husband to me at all. I feel cheated and I feel that I only have a bit of a legal document, but not an actual marriage. These things should NOT be. We don't have to take it.
:(

mermaid

29th September 2007, 04:56 AM

Hi Joanna, good for you! I agree with you that what right does our husbands have to switch off and disregard their vows! I feel I've been cheated on with nobody; I've been denied love and sex for two and a half decades now and lately I've decided to get out of the marriage when I can, before it's too late for me to ever experience love with a man who deserves my love; there is NO EXCUSE whatsoever; they can go and hide in their cave, there are plenty more men out there. I'm not advocating adultery at all; I am like you and was a virgin on my wedding night and my husband decided we'd sleep in separate rooms and had all kinds of high-falluting spiritual ideas of why we should do this, but it's balderdash.
I also felt my husband took my precious treasure, my gift of my love and sexuality to him, and decided it's not worth a thing, it's dirty and shameful for me to have any actual desires of my own, after all am I not there to serve him and not show any feelings of my own? I want a real man who is capable of love and surely God understands this? He made us as sexual beings, he made us capable of intense pleasure and not having that is like starving as it's one of two basic human desires, that of eating and that of having sex.
We have to get real, these, 'men' don't deserve our love; what did they get married for? There are two things that hold a marriage together, love and lust, without both, it fails.
God alone cannot hold a marriage together, it takes the two people. That's why so many Christians are getting divorced, they are leaving too much up to God and banking on the fact that we don't want to get divorced like the people do who don't believe in God, we are being taken for granted, utterly.
I'll write more later.

mermaid

29th September 2007, 05:06 AM

Dear 1aokgal, oh I just feel we have been conned into thinking it's ok and to get fulfilment out of something else, like our paintings (I'm an artist too); for years I felt ashamed that I had sexual feelings and wanted my husband who didn't want me in the slightest. I tried to say it doen't matter as I felt it was the noble thing to do, now I realise how stupid I was; it's just not right and we should not put up with it; lots of men are good providers and hard workers, but they are worth nothing for their cruelty of forcing celibacy on a woman. They should have let us know they were literally going to, 'pull out' on the marriage contract as that is actually what they have done, cheated us.
Marriage to me is the act of love-making; Isaac brought Rebecca into his mother's tent and he became his wife, it was the physical and spiritual union which made them man and wife in God's eyes; all I am left with is a legal document saying I went through a marriage ceremony, but I don't feel I've ever really been married. I never see my, 'husband', he is always outside doing his own things in his workshops and ignores and neglects me, it's not on. I don't think they deserve our protection, they have been heels and they know it.
If it was the other way around, they'd feel free to stray, wouldn't they? They would not let their needs be denied for very long.
I feel we are too easy to say God will provide our every need, but that is one thing God cannot do for us and provided us with a husband to do that and if he doesn't, then he has no right to call himself a husband. Showing love through little jobs or providing is not being a husband; only a husband can do to us what no other man should ever do, we can get workmen in to fix things, we can get gardeners to come and do our lawns, etc, but it's the husband's prime duty, to make love to us. Nothing else is more important as it's his unique work towards us.

cheleanne

19th October 2007, 02:38 PM

Hi Joanna,

You are not alone... my husband is the same as yours and yes, it is a very frustrating and depressing thing. I have been with my husband for 7 years and we have maybe had sex - MAYBE 20 times. The reason I say 'sex' and not making love is because it's a roll on, roll off, go to sleep thing. Ever heard the saying 'Wham! Bam! Thank-you M'am!'? My husband invented that saying as far as I'm concerned.

I have tried to talk to him about it also - but I get no response. I have begged him to see a doctor to rule out any medical issues, but he won't go. He is just not interested. I feel very lonely, unloved, unwanted, and unattractive, even though I've been told by other men that I am beautiful, and sexy.

I have also said to my husband that 'people who don't get their needs fulfilled at home, do look elsewhere!'..... no response. It's almost like he WANTS me to go elsewhere for attention, but when a friend of ours started PAYING attention to me in a flirty way, he got mad. So I guess I'm really confused - as you are....

I don't understand why this has to happen. Premarital sex is taboo - so, if it's wrong to have sex BEFORE you get married, isn't it natural to EXPECT SEX on a regular basis AFTER you get married??? I would think so , but my husband has other ideas. If you ever figure it out, please, please, let me know.......

Good luck to you - and all of us living in this type of relationship......

Raymond

23rd October 2007, 08:43 PM

1aokgal

23rd October 2007, 10:15 PM

Raymond

24th October 2007, 09:04 PM

It took a lot of courage for you to say that OKGal. I know it wasn't easy for you. I wouldn't say it is the reason for every sexless marriage, but I suspect it is in the background of a lot of cases.

If that is the case he will be feeding it with a lot of fantasy in his head (assuming he doesn't use pornography) energised by seducing spirits. It is not a purely physical thing. Sex is always spiritual and always affects our spirits for good or evil. Why else would God make such strict laws about it. He had this habit long before he met you and seems to prefer it than being free.

I know that he is a nice and considerate man in other respects, but that doesn't solve the basic problem. The only hope I see is for him to get right with God about it (This is the christian part of the site) and then avail himself of the help which can only be found in Christ.

Raymond

1aokgal

25th October 2007, 07:54 AM

He is in denial. He believes in nothing more than himself. read latest posting..we had a situation. Yes, I know he had an earlier relationship that ended over a confrontation about sex. He swears his love for me. Yes, I think he cares but he has no concept anymore of a healthy marriage.

I post too often. I must take a vacation from posting and go to the gym. Hope you are well.
You are a nice man and add a lot of common sense here.

Raymond

25th October 2007, 08:15 AM

Have a break OKGal. I did for quite a few weeks if you noticed. Some things you have to get away from and let settle before you see clearly again.

Raymond

Don62

10th November 2007, 06:08 AM

Raymond....

I could say almost with a certainty you are right on with this conclusion about these sexless marriages. These men are getting their needs met...alone. When and where the MB becomes everything who can say. It is simple, convenient and without emotional committment.

I never met a man in my life except the one I married with this compulsion.
I wouldn't necessarily blame the sin of a spouse refusing sex on masturbation or he or she "having their needs met alone."

It may be a mental or spiritual problem.

My wife of 11 years has been refusing me regularly the last 5 or so, with only "occaisional" lovemaking. Boy does that hurt.

I'm certainly not "getting my needs met" anywhere else, though of course temptations arise.

I have found this site to be of assistance in this area:

http://www.themarriagebed.com/boards/index.php

Register and then you can visit the Sexual Refusal section. That subforum isn't open to non registered viewers.

Best wishes to all of you experiencing this problem or abnormality or perversion.

Don62

12th November 2007, 03:40 AM

Just a long shot. I may be completely off the wall and hope I will not offend anyone, but sometimes it's not that they have lost their sexual drive rather that it is being diverted into masturbation, fantasy or even porn. These are solo things usually done in secret but can have a big affect on intimacy as it is really a mental adultery. Jost a long shot just in case.

Raymond
Raymond, respectfully, I highly doubt this is the case in most refusals.

There of course are some cases like that, as the husband spending inordinate hours late at night on the computer looking at naked women.

Of course I MB regularly, maybe more than I would like. What other option or outlet do I have?

I sleep next to my wife but aren't allowed to caress her or go any further, except for maye a couple times a year.

--

Read the TMB forum or even the Sexless Marriage forum. http://p079.ezboard.com/fsexlessmarriagefrm2

It seems some spouses don't take their marriage vows seriously, and have physically abandoned their mates.

Any time their mates (male or increasingly female) "beg" or try to "persuade" their spouses to participate in lovemaking, they're rejected.

It's like their spouses have closed off that part of their liife and now sex isn't anything important to them anymore.

They of course came to this decision on their own, never bothering to consult with their "partner" about the new relationship of being "mere roomates."

This isn't supposed to happen in marriage, and was something I never in my wildest dreams thought I would be experiencing 11 years later.

Interesting how those not afflicted with the sickness can easily jump to conclusions.

Raymond

12th November 2007, 07:34 PM

Don, you will note that I said sometimes this is the case and only when the man is refusing sex. Simply one avenue for a woman to check.

As you are the man and your wife is refusing you I very much doubt that that is her problem.

Your wife is not honouring her vows but could have problems from the past perhaps. You need to work through these things together apart from the sex. There are many cases of husbands who kept loving their wives to the point of sexually awakening their wives. I'm sure she feels deep down that she is failing you, but you do need expert christian counseling if she is willing and of course keep praying.

Raymond

1aokgal

14th November 2007, 04:35 AM

Raymond...
I believe you hit the nail on the head. Know or not know will change nothing. He operates on the fuel of two under the roof who co-exist well and chooses to tell me often in th early AM as he leaves the house..how much he loves me. It is in my half awake state so that is like a dream. The rest is just a nightmare and the calendar pages keep falling.
It is too late and too late to mend the damage done. It does not seem to matter as the days pass and I can't remember passion or the time there was love. It is dim memory.

Raymond

14th November 2007, 10:06 PM

You have been through a lot of suffering OKGal and yet there are a lot of bright patches in your life as well. In the end when all is said and done it's who we are that counts not necessarily what we do. You have to be the best person you can be in the circumstances and not go under with it, as some seem to be doing. I like the scripture that says All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose. I'm sure that includes your circumstances. You can only start from where you are. There are many other like you whom I see that you are a great comfort to on these threads. You all have created a kind of fellowship together. We can only change the things we can change and ask God for strength to live with the things we cannot change, although even these things are not impossible to Him.

God bless
Raymond

1aokgal

15th November 2007, 08:47 AM

Dear Raymond...

Thank you again for your sweet and caring nature on the threads. Just awhile ago my husband got a phone call from Germany. His father has taken a turn for the worse. He may have only a few days to live. His cancer was found a few weeks ago and chemo used but too late, it seems. I really knew this when I heard it.

Sad, my husband being the elder son.... with a job he can't leave without a replacement and thousands of miles too far between there and US. I told thim there is no shame that he can't be there with his dad. He will try to call him again in the morning. The rest of his family is there as brother and sister who live there.

I could only tell him that that there is a time for all seasons as the bible says." a time to live and a time to die." That if he can truly beleive our loved ones never leave us and always are there close by in Spirit. That the reward is there for his father for the good life he lived. It reminded me when you speak about my situation here what a good man I married and of strong character and ethical and decent.

He has been a blessing for me in many ways. Sometimes the problem in the marriage has crushed my spirit yet I don't want to reject the love he does give me. I repect him for caring for me in other ways. I know there are many men who hide the money they earn or spend it at the bar. My husband has always been giving and generous as well as he is always willing to help in the home from cooking to windows.

When I was in the hospital and really ill he came before 5AM, before work to sit with me in the dark of the room to reassure me and let me know he loved me. He sat late into the evening with me before he left to go home. He carried in things that would please me and told me childrens' bedtime stories as , "Jack and the Beanstalk" with impressive character voices. Sometimes I try to tell others here to look for the love and not let anger bar the door to a what relationship we have with the person we vowed to love.

Thanks for reminding me the walk of faith is not easy but there are many rewards.

1aokgal

15th November 2007, 09:26 AM

Dear Don62...

Welcome to the forum. Your posting is interesting to hear the male viewpoint.

Sorry for your unhappiness. Most of us who have a spouse who has chosen to live within themselves develop coping skills. We are happy in the other areas of our lives. The options available are to leave, find another to create a semi-world or live with the rejection. There are good days and bad days.

A bad day can start when you open your eyes and nothing has changed and you feel as though your purpose in life has been stolen. It is hard to live as a vegetable. I am still a woman who loves pretty clothes, shoes and perfume and checks the mirror. Men compliment me for the efforts I make to be attractive.

He compliments me as well but does not value me as a woman. If he did he would not risk losing me. He just knows I will be here. It takes a lot of effort to keep from becoming bitter. I did a lot of reading as it seems you have done. There is no one answer except a partner has become selfish.

Raymond

15th November 2007, 09:38 AM

Your husband seems a man of very good character OKGal but an enigma as well. Not the type to withold physical love from his wife. I wonder if he was brought up a very good Catholic and somehow got the idea that sex was dirty or selfish. I spent quite a few years in convents and it is easy to get that idea in that enviorment. A model pupil would have more difficulty I would think.

You are wise in seeing the glass half full instead of half empty and counting you blessings. That is a great strength. Who knows whether your love for your husband will heal him in that area in the end? I assume at the beginning that it wasn't the case? In cases where there was never any sex the marriage is said not to be consumated and legal seperation was possible without a divorce, but lets not go backwards as he very much loves you and you him.

If he is a very moral man you could appeal to him through the scriptures which are very clear on not defrauding each other of sex if you are married. I know you have given up but I never do I am afraid.

Keep smiling. enjoy what you do have.

Raymond

1aokgal

16th November 2007, 04:10 AM

Dear Raymond...

Thank you for your input. Yes, my husband is an enigma. I don't doubt his devotion to me but I wonder sometimes if he lives on the planet? I cannot fathom that he thinks he is a good husband. Through these years we had fiery discussions, arguments, and went the gamut of all things that should work to revitalize the dead part of the marriage. Or at least, I tried. It is no longer important to me to guess his dysfunction or rationale. That is his problem. Mine, is to survive.
I am not the quiet reserved type. I bought a boat when he was months overseas at his sea job there and pilot it quite well. I took Flamenco dancing a few year back and loved the clothing and dancing. There is the dramatic sensuality of the dance. I felt really alive and happy. My passion now is to make and wear Victorian clothing to special events. I will be dressed in a magnificent ballgown on Saturday for a formal Victorian dinner event . He will wear a frockcoat and top hat as he chose to join me in this fantasy land. Now I wish I was going alone. Somehow I don't want to sparkle for him anymore. So boring, I am NOT.

Then, there are times I cannot hold it together when I think that half the marriage has been in celibacy not of my choosing. His is the unilateral decision to have no sex in the marriage. I feel as a Pariah in society and a deceiver who is married...but is not married. Too many years alone inside my skin makes one feel like a freak of nature. There is a perceived deformity in me which is enormous ..even though it cannot be seen from the outside. It has scarred me on the inside. It is hard for me to be in gatherings of people.
In December, this will be the 14th year of this hell. I think he even mentioned to me in a discussion how ten years ago I jogged regular, really toned and was so svelte that men were following me around. Yes, that was true. If he was so bothered by that why didn't he alter the scenario?
I still love beautiful clothes, heels and my perfumes. I am still woman..I think.

I told him the other day that my best friend and her husband go on "date night" Wednesday as dinner, dancing and sex after as part of their 30 year marriage. My friend is horrified at the information I shared with her awhile after we met. I reinforced the sexual part of that story of their night to him. Says he.."Well we should do that. " I did not reply as was on the tip of my tongue," I would believe that when the sky starts to fall." I have heard all the mouth service before..for years. "I am leaving for work overseas for 6 months, when I get back I will go see a doctor, get counselling, have sex...yada, yada, yada.
The truth is the damage to my self esteem is so severe I think I would curl up in a corner at the first movement toward me. We kiss on the cheek, on the mouth like a buddy when you leave ..the peck on the mouth. I think I am biding time to die sometime. Now that I do have a serious health problem the inner loneliness is worse. I hate to realize that the marriage will never change and I am beyond approach now as I might recoil.

I have thought to begin Samba lessons or dance classes again. He often works overnights and next year will be gone for perhaps 6 months. What do you think? Maybe I should just get out again, wear my pretty clothes and let him to his own devices.

Don62

16th November 2007, 03:44 PM

1aokgal, thanks for your support and kind words.
I was lashing out (more of venting) but not against the good people here on this board.
I'm as frustrated as you, unfortunately.

It's like she all the sudden, perhaps 5 years ago, decided sexual intimacy wasn't important to her anymore. So we have it maybe 2-3 times a year, much less than I would desire. I would prefer it 2-3 times a week, but would be happy with just weekly.

Other things in our relationship appear to be okay, though.

So it seems both sexes are gulity of this horrible sin.

Dear Don62...

Welcome to the forum. Your posting is interesting to hear the male viewpoint.

Sorry for your unhappiness. Most of us who have a spouse who has chosen to live within themselves develop coping skills. We are happy in the other areas of our lives. The options available are to leave, find another to create a semi-world or live with the rejection. There are good days and bad days.

A bad day can start when you open your eyes and nothing has changed and you feel as though your purpose in life has been stolen. It is hard to live as a vegetable. I am still a woman who loves pretty clothes, shoes and perfume and checks the mirror. Men compliment me for the efforts I make to be attractive.

He compliments me as well but does not value me as a woman. If he did he would not risk losing me. He just knows I will be here. It takes a lot of effort to keep from becoming bitter. I did a lot of reading as it seems you have done. There is no one answer except a partner has become selfish.

Raymond

16th November 2007, 07:44 PM

You sound all real woman to me OKGal. It does affect your self esteem because of human weakness but it is not the truth and you need to see it that way.

I will leave you two to talk things through.

Raymond

1aokgal

16th November 2007, 08:01 PM

Don62...

I would say for you to confront head on about the problem. The more time that goes, the less chance to change the pattern. Say you are willing to see a counselor together.

Years ago I made the appointment for a psychiatrist for both of us to go and we did that. Then he saw my H. alone for many sessions . I understand my H. talked about his work and never about the sexual demise in the marriage. I finally had enough when it seemed they bonded like good old boys and I was on the outside. I just told this counselor he was a dud. I should have selected a woman and maybe she would have confronted him. I chose the man as I thought my H. would be more comfortable. It struck me that only I had the emotional distress and my H. was fine with everything.

It is too late here. I no longer find him attractive in the sexual sense. That horse has been beaten to death. I just do the best I can in all other areas of living. People like us despair in silence for the most part.

Alice Alice

26th December 2007, 10:22 AM

i agree with Raymond its exactly whats happening to these ladies...and me too

veg92

11th February 2008, 08:50 AM

Hi everyone,

It's late but I wanted to say I can relate to your stories. I'm so disgusted with my marriage and our lack of physical intimacy. My husband does have low to no testosterone due to an injury he sustained in his senior year in high school. His parents neglected to get him medical attention (he had his own part in this too as he was too ashamed to go to a doctor) and thus his testacles atrophied over a period of 2 years when a simple medical procedure could have prevented this tragic loss! He has been on Androderm patches for years but they don't seem to deliver enough Vitamin T, as I call it, to his system. We've been maried for almost 16 years and have probably had sex less than 75 times. That might be a generous estimate. I have struggled with masturbation over the years, sometimes more than others, but I never commit mental adultery...my mind is always on my husband or on nothing in particular. We did not have sex before marriage but he seemed attracted to me. On our honeymoon, I was very wounded on our second or third night when he said we didn't have to have sex every night. I felt like a sex maniac. This was the beginning of many years of pain for me. I have felt more like the typical 'man' while he seems more like the typical frigid woman. I have allowed this to go one for too long and hope to again talk with my hubby about this soon and get some resolution. I have much more to say but need to get to bed. I hope some of the ladies who started posting here have found some positive solutions.

Raymond

11th February 2008, 02:27 PM

Your case is very different Veg if he has a physical injury, but if you say you've had sex approx 70 times, then something obviously happened in spite of the injury. You probably know a lot more about this that I do, but I thought the testacles were to do with conveying sperm rather than producing enjoyment. I don't know, is that true? I thought it started in the brain. That's why I don't watch porn as it would be mental adultery. The thing is men can get switched on to sex mentally before they do it physically. Do the testacles stop this? If he can get switched on mentally then there is hope as this can be cultured to serve both of you in your marriage.

Raymond

1aokgal

13th February 2008, 09:08 AM

My first husband was about 23 when he had testicular cancer and had one testicle removed. He had radiation treatments as well then.
Though he was left sterile , believe me, when I say he never had a problem with thinking about (erection) or performing sexually. We divorced years later over other problems. So There could be a problem in your situation with testosterone. There is a test for that.

My present husband has NO interest in sex for years and years. No, he has never had a T test and evidently dosen't care to go that route. He has all equipment he was born with. Who knows? Then there is the fact that sex actually starts between the ears. One has the desire and even men who are handicapped find ways to have sex with their wives.
I have to add that he is a very good person and whatever is wrong it is not that he is a player or does not care for me. He seems very devoted to me except in the area where it most counts as the love between a man and woman.

Susan Strict

2nd April 2008, 04:46 PM

1aokgal,

My husband had the same problem some years ago and the problem has now gone completely. He's as active as I could possibly wish.

I don't know what you have tried and not tried, and I don't want to offend anyone here by going into too many details, but a few thoughts for you:

1. Remember that "sex" between partners in a true relationship is lovemaking. It's an expression of your love and your desire to please each other physically as much as to please yourself. To have him please you, may be as important to him as his own pleasure. I can't put that any more clearly without being graphic about it.

2. You're never too old to flirt (with him, NOT anyone else!), and a relationship is never too old for something a little unusual, different or out of the ordinary. Can you talk to him about intimate matters? Many of us find it very difficult. Somewhere inside him is probably something that will excite the urge - and as long as it's not too bizarre for you to want to share with him then all you have to do is uncover it and do it. A bit of "reverse psychology" works wonders if you're trying to find out what's in his head - something like "I can't imagine people really wanting to do that" (he'll inevitably agree with you that he can't imagine anyone "wanting to do it" - but watch his expression/body-language closely, and IF it's right and IF you're happy with it too, then "I wonder what it feels like..." is a really useful phrase.) There's very little, in my opinion, that is "wrong" for a husband and wife to do together (if they both want to) in private, and the excitement of something new and different may be all that's needed.

3. Don't be afraid to take the lead. I don't mean leap on top of him unexpectedly (not unless you really want to!!), but if you always wait for him to make the first move then you might never get anywhere.

Good luck.

Alice Alice

2nd April 2008, 07:57 PM

Dear Susan Strict
this sounds very good, wow you brought your husband back from the world he was living in, this is hopeful.

i need to get a book ...the language of love and use the right techniques on my husband i have tried the "rub his arm look into his eyes and tiptoe for a kiss and have been denied. (very painful being rejected, i take it very badly)

Maybe i pick the wrong times? or i get too mushy? i don't know.

i will be receiving help on my codependency problem that i believe i have.

Wow this is an old thread that i lost

Raymond

3rd April 2008, 01:07 PM

I know what Susan is talking about. Some of us are complex creatures and she may just be on the right track. We are all sexual beings deep down and so long as the reason is not that the sexual drive is being perverted into something else there is hope. Alas though I feel that a lot of men are happier on a porn site or something instead of living in the reality of their own sexual relationship with their loved one. But if this isn't the problem then it is worth investigating and finding out the key to switching them on.

Raymond

Raymond

3rd April 2008, 06:53 PM

Not to take the romance out of it sex is a duty as well. I was just reading the following verses from the bible 1 Cor 7:3-5b new Living Translation.

The husband should not deprive his wife of sexual intimacy, which is her right as a married woman. Nor should the wife deprive her husband. The wife gives authority over her body to her husband and the husband also gives authority over his body to the wife. So do not deprive each other of sexual relations.

I think a lot of this is to do with the mind as well. All our sexual imagination should be towards our spouses. If sex starts in the brain indulging in porn etc. it will rob us and rob our spouses of the imagination we reserve for them. If I am watching porn etc., that is nothing to do with my wife. Although I love my wife I need the discipline as well to keep myself pure for her and not pollute myself watching others outside of our relationship indulging in fantasy sex just to tittilate me. I am capable of being tittilated but the cost is to my sexual relations with my wife. You know deep down that you have been unfaithful even if it's only fantasy because your body is responding sexually. I try not to watch porn but I know enough about my body to know what I am talking about.

I read a story about a couple where the husband frequently masturbated on his own. During this time he would get fantasy images coming into his mind. One day an image of a blonde girl about 8 years old came into his mind and he imagined doing all sorts of things to her. After that he went downstairs and amazingly the very girl in the fantasy was there and within a short time he was abusing her. She had been left for him and his wife to babysit for a friend. The police were called in and he pleaded that he was not a paedophile. This is a true story and illustrates another force, perhaps demonic, which operates when one get into solo masturbation apart from the wife. The marriage was sexless at the time but there was no shortage of sex drive in the fantasy world he had created. Fortunately this person was able to get help in a christian centre but it is a warning of what one can get into indulging in any kind of sex outside of marriage. Sorry to shock anyone, but this actually happened and similar things are probably repeating themselves with thousands in the fantasy realms.

Raymond

Alice Alice

3rd April 2008, 07:08 PM

This is scary and i believe spirits can manipulate our minds when we are in a fantasy state of sexual feelings...i worry about my husbands mental state at times like this when i think how long he can go on like this...he looks at porn all the time
he even has said he can't stop.

Raymond

3rd April 2008, 08:52 PM

Hi Alice it is scary. I can tell you much worse things but I won't. I have no doubt that there are unseen forces at work that can only be combatted through faith. The scripture says we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against pricipalities powers etc. then goes on to list these unseen forces. In John's letter he says beloved believe not every spirit but try the spirits whether they are of God.

I hope I haven't frightened you Alice. It's only when you receive the Holy Spirit that you become aware of these things. That's why it is so important to receive Christ and the Holy Spirit which He can send.

Your husband seems bound by these things. A stronghold has been built up if he says he cannot stop. It is not a game which one may think when starting out. He would have given ground to these things and it cannot be reversed that easily once one is addicted. He has to really want release and be prepared to put it behind him. I would say that he would need special deliverance from it by spirit filled christians but that is just my opinion.

All you can do is pray that he sees this. The power behind it is very strong but it is not of God. Someone sent me an email yesterday attached to a web site and there was a film about the dangers of porn and how it was wrecking marriages. To get the message type this lot. It should take you straight to it. Hopefully you can show your husband. http://player26.narrowstep.tv/nsp.aspx?player=Premier2&void=15894 You have to wait a minute for it to set up and then it plays.

God bless

Raymond

Susan Strict

3rd April 2008, 10:52 PM

Porn is always difficult - because like many things it can be addictive, as clearly it is in your husband's case. I don't actually believe it is always necessarily bad in itself (but, as with anything like this, there are degrees of what is acceptable and what isn't) and where we believe the line should be drawn varies from person to person. Because sexuality is one of the strongest forces within most of us, anything that addresses and awakens that force has potential dangers. I don't think it's a case of "spirits manipulating our minds" - it's simply that our minds have very deep urges that can latch onto something that stimulates them and then sometimes have great difficulty in letting go.

Alice, serious situations need drastic measures: have you ever looked at the porn that he is so addicted to?. Don't answer that here - these are questions you should ask yourself. Is it so extreme it simply repels you completely? Or is it fantasy stuff that instead of being between the porn and your husband could just as easily be between you and your husband?
Do you understand what I am saying? If you want to break the hold it seems to have on him then maybe, just maybe, you might start by looking at it with him and channelling his arousal towards you. I'm not suggesting that you should find the porn of any interest yourself; I'm suggesting that you should find his excitement of interest to yourself, and then use that to draw him away from it and to you.
Many couples look at porn together, because the fantasy of porn can enhance the lovemaking. I'm not at all sure whether I would recommend it, because undoubtedly there are dangers and I'm sure it's not right for everyone. In any case that's not what you're after. You want to draw him away from it, and to do that I think you may have to go into areas that will probably make you feel uncomfortable. The more you understand his desires, the more you should be able to be the focus of them.

Errm... can I put it bluntly? Find the opportunity to show him that you are just so much better than his own right hand can ever be. From what you've said, that opportunity may only occur when he's looking at porn. You have to be there, somehow.

Don't rush. Think about what I've said carefully. It may not be as difficult or as frightening as it first sounds even though to start it moving in the right direction may take you into areas that make you feel uncomfortable.

Alice Alice

3rd April 2008, 11:39 PM

Porn is wrong
i was 9 years old when a group of us school kids were walking along an ally a short cut from school when we saw porn magazines that had been thrown out and some kids were looking at it laughing and i looked over someones shoulder and looked too.
It brought out such a gross feeling i didn't want any part of it.

The next time i saw porn i was 23 at my cousins house i couldn't believe how stupid it was not the sex but the acting and as for the sex i did get aroused but i felt cheated (?)

the next time after that was a few years later when i got my computer a friend (male) who helped me put my computer together stopped by a sight.

after that my husband father of my son has been looking at porn it seems since he was 14 or so
i have looked at almost all the porn he has and have asked if i can see with him ,,,he won't have it. i have been very open minded to the idea in order to bring him back to our reality he likes it too much on his own.

i have masturbated i have looked at porn (not at the same time) i have learned its not for me and i am not a prude when it comes to sex i expect when my husband is looking into my eyes and when i look into his that he and i are united in the experience...he can't do this because his porn images are floating in his mind.
He isn't an evil person he is just a careless man who can't see the value of lovemaking.

but i believe in spirits i don't walk around thinking about it like a frighten person...i have brought Jesus into my heart and he will always stay there because i will never close the door on him...i have been saved from all the negative feelings that have been inflicted upon me.

I really appreciate your input Susan

Raymond

4th April 2008, 08:20 AM

Alice a mental adultery is taking place when a man watches porn believe me. A man will tell you what switches him on if you ask him. I have told my wife what switches me on in addition to the normal IC. One really doesn't need to watch his porn. It does destroy. The images will stay in the mind and one will see women as objects. Sex is part of relationship between a man and a woman. Porn opens you up to myriads of other naked women and men that will be in your mind. Sex is only to share with your spouse. A man is capable of sharing his sex drive with fantasy images. It is a robbery of God's plan for marriage which is where it really should be happening. There are plenty of places to discuss sex without watching porn which is simply designed to tittilate at the expense of relationship. People are making millions on this stuff. I am very glad that you already see that.

Raymond

Susan Strict

4th April 2008, 01:56 PM

I respect your views, of course, but I do feel there may be something you are missing.

Read the Song of Solomon (also called the Song of Songs), and feel the power of the celebration of sexuality in it - even the watered-down badly translated version in most modern translations. The original Hebrew is, without any shadow of a doubt, "pornographic" writing that was calculated to sexually excite the reader. I can't produce the evidence for it, but I'm sure I also remember reading that many of the older scripts from which modern translations of the Song of Solomon are taken were also illustrated with erotic drawings.

And it's beautiful.

Now, contrast that with the equally pornographic but very different writing in Ezekiel 23 and the events described in it. Does it have to go on and on like that? Of course it doesn't. It could say what it needs to say with far less of the stuff like "she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys". It's porn, and quite deliberately so, and it drives home so forcefully the difference between good sexuality and bad sexuality. It's not beautiful at all.

To enjoy something beautiful, something that "titillates" like the Song of Solomon cannot, in my mind, ever be bad unless we allow ourselves to become addicted to such material. The addiction is bad, not the material - in exactly the same way that most of us may enjoy a glass of wine without that becoming an addiction and in the knowledge that the alcohol we consume can be an evil if we allow it to be.

Anyway, that's me done on this subject. I think I'm rather getting off the main topic of this thread anyway.

Raymond

4th April 2008, 06:49 PM

Susan, sex was made by God and it's true we were meant to thoroughly enjoy it within the bounds of marriage. Man perverts it by taking it out of relationship. Pornography is like sex outside relationship. the Song of Solomon is a beautiful piece that shows God is not against sex. I think you will find that there is no evidence at all about any drawings accompanying it. These things have been thoroughly researched for centuries. It shows that sex is good, but I don't think it's written in such a way that tittilates. The most it says is breasts. (It's also a picture of Christ and the Church if you understand the prophetic message). Theres no doubt that a man should be intoxicated with his wife. Thats even a command in Proverbs 5.19. Porn is mostly about sex with anyone anywhere married or not graphically described. Nothing like the Song of Solomon in my view. You cannot really compare it to porn. The only common denominator is sex.

The passage you mentioned in Ezekiel 23 refers to two women who played the harlot. It is a picture of disgust that they had forsaken their husbands and uncovered their nakedness to various lovers. It is a visual aid to talk about Jerusalem and Samaria who had forsaken the true God and played the spiritual harlot in going after other so called Gods in other nations and were coming under judgment. I don't see how you can justify pornography out of that. It was some of these other nations in fact that revelled in open sex in their temples with statues of massive penises, temple prostitutes etc.

The bible can be quite blunt in sexual things but that doesn't justify porn. There is a massive difference you must admit. Sex can be spoken of in a helpful way when it needs to be, but to speak of it for the sake of it in order to tittilate and sell books is an entirely different ball game. That has a completely different spirit on it. Anyone of any discernment knows that. Wives have a better grasp of this than most men and instinctively know the dangers, although men know they are right deep down. If you read some of these old threads you will see the place pornography had in ruining a lot of the marriages. Divorces through pornography are on about 15% at the moment from about 1% ten years ago, so it is a massive problem.

Jesus said that if a man looks on a woman to lust after her he has already committed adultery/fornication with her in his heart. This must be happening in pornography over and over. I always think it is a kind of mental adultery and my observation is that it is having the same effect as adultery. Pornography is a robber rather than an enabler. It's almost like it has come to steal and destroy. Did you know that porn stars have way the highest suicide rates of any profession? It is not something that God can bless. Somemething else is behind it and it isn't God.

Sex is a strong urge in most of us but the fire needs to be lit in the hearth (marriage) not in the middle of the floor where it will burn the house down.

Raymond

Alice Alice

5th April 2008, 07:16 AM

Hello Raymond and Susan

Raymond i saw the link you sent all i can say is thank you!!!!!
i will have my husband sitting here tomorrow and watching it with him
he will not get out of watching this ...its medicine for his brain

Susan i agree king Solomon was involved with sex through out his ruling i believe he had the most wives of any king even the old testament standards.
God wanted his chosen men to have more then one wife because he wanted to populate the earth with good bloodlines.
the old testament is honorable but i really believe Jesus came to earth to set a lot of things strait about how we are to treat one another then died for our sins.
Solomon had a lot of wives from all over the world and these wives didn't all believe in his God and Solomon got a little slack with god because of the company he kept ie wives...he even went to see a fortune teller or something like that after God had reassured him about something he was worried about.

I'm not taking away the value of the Bible or Solomon by saying this i'm just saying if you read the bible it has a lot of repeated stories told differently by each writer but the theme is always the same and God words evolves so we modern people can understand and i believe Jesus to be the one who has upgraded the bible because God knew it needed it.
That's what makes us Christine not Jewish or muslims.

Sex is sacred and when sex is sold that is porn
i can video tape myself with my husband having sex and that would not be porn,,,mind you i don't think its necessary personally, but there is nothing wrong with it.

Did Jesus charge people for his holly acts of love?

i don't want you to feel bad about anything i say i really like your take on how you brought your husband back from a sexless marriage but i think you still need to fine tune some of your ideas

Raymond

5th April 2008, 08:27 AM

Alice I totally agree with everything you say. You do not realise how honourable you have been. I will tell you one day.

Yes Jesus made a new covenant which we are under as christians. A love covenant purchased for us through his death. You say it so beautifully.

I really pray that your husband sees his error and that his eyes may be opened to the truth. In the meantime you need to build yourself up. I hope you are getting good fellowship with other christians. We are not meant to live in isolation from each other although of course we respect each others privacy.

God bless

Raymond

Alice Alice

5th April 2008, 10:21 AM

thank you i believe Christ will show him the way..i just need to

Raymond

5th April 2008, 04:03 PM

I'll finish for you? Need to be who you are in Christ. Your husband will be changed by your life not by your words. I am praying for him. You are very brave to hang on in there. Most women would have left by now. Do you have any children Alice? How old are they?

Raymond

Alice Alice

5th April 2008, 11:59 PM

My hubby saw the news clip ...all of it.
now i wait to see what i can fish out of him.
i need to give him time to figure out what he learned...if he in fact learned anything, thats what i'm worried about.

Thanx again...i need to find a church i just moved to a new neighbourhood 4 hours from my old one...he said he wants to go to a pentecostal church or a Seventh-day Adventist

ps i forgot to answer ur question...we have a 22month baby

Raymond

6th April 2008, 06:25 AM

It's an amazing feat for you that he actually read it Alice. That is good. You must leave it with God now though. If he gets wind that you are manipulating it could have a reverse affect. He must know it is wrong deep down.

It is interesting that he wants to find a church. I know a little about an Adventist church. The ones over here are a bit odd and legalistic and seem to be against the Holy Spirit. I would recommend the Pentecostal church every time, although I would imagine there are good ones and not so good ones. The main thing is that they lift up Jesus and are open to the Holy Spirit. If that is there you cannot go far wrong. There will be others like you who are trying to follow Christ. Part of growing as a christian is relationship to other members of the body. It wasn't meant to be lived in isolation although of course you have your own space like all of us which I find important.

I'm going to pray right now that God sets your husband free if he wants it and that you find a church together. That will be a great strength for you both if it happens.

Raymond

Alice Alice

6th April 2008, 06:47 AM

you are such a sweet heart!!!
thanx!!

Raymond

6th April 2008, 09:40 PM

Hi Alice. I was just listening to Joyce Meyer on computer and thought of you. On the second half of her message she talks about porn. Never done it before as far as I know. If you fancy listening You can get her on http://www.joycemeyer.org/. Then press todays podcasts. Then pick April 4th - download podcast - save to taget. It will then download to your worktop. When it's done you can then play it.

I said you were very brave because you resisted ss. she runs a p site. You kept your principals. Well done.

Raymond

Alice Alice

7th April 2008, 12:36 AM

Hi Raymond
thanks for the link, i learned about Joyce back in 1999 she is great all her work is inspirational to me, i haven't seen that one.
She talked about a lot of things about procrastination and giving one selves good deeds to others, being humble, self persona (different then self image) curiosity of bad things IE porn

all good stuff loved listening to it all its been a while since i sat down to listen to her..thanx for rekindling the fire to listen to her now i will on the net.

Wow i had no idea ss was a p promoter in the true sense...where is she now? i wonder why she hasn't replied.

i showed my Husband what she wrote and he thought it was a man who was posing as a woman.

i'm not scared of people who try to redirect my focus of the true word of God.
i have been warned about these kind of people they have been said to be the worst kind i forget there is a name they are called...but i hope she will see and learn that her views have been warped, its never too late. Saint Paul for example.

thank you soo much for making my life kinder, sometimes i feel like banging my head against the wall of this porn problem that i am faced with.

Porn is the modern IMAGE along with some of the fashion industry.
God warned every one not to worship IMAGES made of wood, stone, i forget word for word but he covered all areas of this IMAGE problem....we should only pine for God and no one else a balanced way of looking at things i would say

Raymond

7th April 2008, 08:23 AM

I agree with what you are saying about porn. A chap called David Wilkerson who started Teen Challenge prophesied many years ago of this coming to the world. He referred to revelation where a flood came out of the dragons mouth to try and drown the woman who was bringing forth the man child. I take that as the church manifesting Christ and the flood being used to drown that. Just a thought.

My wife said she thought ss was a man as well. Strange?

Raymond

Alice Alice

7th April 2008, 09:05 PM

Revelations is so hard to fallow even after its explained i have received some understanding of it though.
The end of the "world" a lot of people will try to misguide each other

what if your wife and my Hubby are right?

i found out about a church today that has a congregation that is growing very quickly
in fact i was told there are a lot of churches of all different kinds in the new area we moved to
Its hard to explain the town we are in is part of several towns i think 9 and with in each town has like 4 churches ...so we will do some church hoping

Alice Alice

8th April 2008, 04:46 AM

Hi Raymond i found something

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n-wg8tWpP54&feature=related

Raymond

8th April 2008, 08:16 AM

Hi Alice. yes Rev is a difficult but one gets a sense of it sometimes.

It's great that you have a choice of churches to go to. I really pray you find the right one for you.

I don't know if your husband and my wife are right, but I have heard of this sort of thing before. Deception is going on in this area. The whole thing is a deception really when you think about it. That's one of his names actually.The great deceiver. Again in revelation.

I will look at vegetales later. I saw a bit but it kept pausing and I'm off to work in a minute, plus swimming and maybe housegroup at the end.

God bless
Raymond

Alice Alice

8th April 2008, 08:12 PM

hope you saw the link..i know its childish news but it hits home...i was with my baby searching for some entertainment our TV broke in the move and i found this.

thanks again for all your uplifting advice
gab

Raymond

9th April 2008, 08:17 AM

Hi Alice. I saw the first one where a lady is talking about opposition on NBC to them which is happening today, but God is opening up really good christian stuff on TV and other ways. I have put it on favourites and will play one to my wife. They look fun and a good way for children to pick up faith, needless to say adults as well. Thankyou.

Hope it's going alright with hubby. I am praying good things will happen re: church and p.

Raymond

lilybloom

4th June 2008, 06:18 AM

Oh my gosh I am so relieved I ran-across this forum. I am at my wit's end with my husband's confusing sex drive. We have been married for 21 years, after only a 6 month engagement. I was 21 when we married, he was 30 and had been married before (once). I was so young I didn't know what a healthy sexual relationship consisted of. At first I thought everything was normal...his infrequent sexual appetite was puzzling at times, but I just thought that I was the abnormal one for wanting it more than he. He also has a problem with sexual performance - this is very hard for me to say - but he isn't able to control his sexual climax. At most he lasts for 15-30 seconds. I'm sorry if this offends anyone...I just don't know how else to say it.

Again, I was so young and inexperienced that I thought that sexual intimacy once or twice a month with a duration of 30 seconds each time was normal. I never felt satisfied, but I thought it was me. After a while I educated myself and found that at our age we should have been intimate more often. I would initiate, he would either say he was tired, or it would end with PE. I encouraged him to get help. He was offended, and would go into denial about his problem. This went on for years.

Finally, about 10 years ago I told him that I couldn't go on like this. I was going crazy - I thought I was the reason he didn't want to have sex so I was exercising, dieting, even resorting to cosmetic surgery to make my body more appealing. I was clinically depressed with very low self-esteem, and so so angry. We went to marriage counseling, but he always seemed to want to blame me for his PE. This was so confusing as I've never been critical of him, I try to reassure him that he is a wonderful man, I take really good care of myself (I have been told by many people that I am very attractive), I wear the latest trends in clothing, I'm intelligent and formally educated with a master's degree....I try to be the best I can be. I also work to contribute to the household income.

So the counseling didn't work. I finally placed an ultimatum: Get help or I am going to move out. He went to a different counselor who told him he may have an anxiety disorder. He left the counselor's office and never returned. His ability for denial is legendary, obviously.

Well...I never did move out. I started a new job, and he all of the sudden insisted that we build a home in an affluent part of the city in which we live. He started buying me expensive jewelry...he's always been a good provider, and has always given me the sweetest gifts on my birthday, etc. and sometimes "just because" gifts. Amidst all of this change I didn't have the heart nor the energy to leave.

Now we are going on 22 years of marriage and nothing has changed. He complimented me on my looks earlier tonight. I replied with "well...maybe we can have some loving later if you would like that." He said "sure, I'd like that." Then he immediately got busy doing things around the house. That was six hours ago. So here I sit in my pink nightie in a chair three feet away from him in silence while he watches television. I am angry, frustrated, depressed, and so so lonely...any suggestions?

Raymond

4th June 2008, 01:06 PM

Hi Lilybloom. I trust you have read the posts on this thread and have some idea of what is discussed. We are not experts and only offer opinions. PE in the male can happen and some marriages do suffer from this but that obviously is not how God designed it so there is something wrong either physically but more likeley mentally. Usually the problem occurs because of over stimulation in the brain. One of the common reasons I believe is because of the use of pornography and these images in the mind. Another obvious one is solo MB which is also to do with images cultivated in the mind. Both of these are like a mental adultery. If it was any of these you probably would have known about that by now. It may just be a practical thing of learning about it more. There are many good books out these days. Personally I find that practice makes perfect. I hope you don't find that offensive but these things are legitimate in a marriage and you should be enjoying the best there is. The husband should be relaxed and taking his time and coming into it from a good marriage relationship which helps enormously I find.

I think it may just be a question of your husband being willing to buy good books on the subject, not those which just tittilate and make it worse. I think a good christian site is www.themarriagebed.com (http://www.themarriagebed.com) It is discussed in depth on some of those threads if you can ignore all the other stuff that people talk about. Some of that can be off putting but there are good threads in with it as well. The main thing is he must be open to making adjustments if necessary and not live in denial. That is probably the biggest stumbling block he has.

Raymond

looiuy

31st August 2008, 03:03 AM

Hello,

I just read all the posts and one major point which can work is involve the community, speak with the pastor's wife and have her tell her husband, or speak to another woman and have her ask her husband to intervene. This could be the real booster and if he gets mad.. hey you have been mad 2-20-30 years already... if he is selfish enough that he let's your pain hurt you just so he doesn't have to touch you (he has hands he could have touched your body with, a mouth to kiss your body and so on, massage etc) yet he does not do this, there are so many ways to please a woman without regular intercourse... he needs a course refresher, ladies let the men know what you want and if they don't listen find a male messenger to help, invite someone like the pastor to your home to speak to him while you are not there but when you know he will be there, just have him knock and say he is there to talk to him ... once you take this course of action don't wiggle out and don't be scared, search the Bible for verses on community involvement and consensus and group helping and remember:

this is NOT about a non-functioning male organ, it's about a husband who is not passionate about his wife, who is too selfish to think and use other ways to satisfy his wife and to even kiss her appropriately (i.e more than the kind of peck you would expect from him kissing mama's cheek), and if he huffs and puffs and kisses you or really looks like he's not enjoying it, then hey he needs to obey God not you and read what duties God gave him toward his wife, if he can work 8 hours a day and watch TV he needs to reach a point where he is passionately able to be passionate with you.

Raymond

31st August 2008, 09:10 AM

You are right Loolay. Proverbs tells us to be intoxicated with our wives in the bedroom. That's almost a command, but a lovely one. Surely if we are obedient to that God will heal anything untoward.

Raymond

mmh

22nd October 2009, 04:09 AM

Raymond

22nd October 2009, 08:38 AM

Whilst I do have a good sex life it seems very attractive to me that a wife would actually initiate. Wow! It's always me in my marriage but I have accepted that. I think it should generally be the man so obviously there is a problem there in your marriage.

In these cases I always check whether there are hidden sexual diversions in the husbands life such as porn or solo MB. I have discussed these things before, going around the houses, and in the end thats what it turned out to be. I know that is not always the case but it is worth checking here first as they are the obvious things.

Has he always been this way or is this a late development? Other things that can affect it are overwork and excessive drinking. These limit the sexual drive in men and probably women too. Whilst lack of excercise won't kill the sex drive excercise will increase it. I have found this in my own life.

Sex is very important as you realise and while it is not everything it is a vital part of marriage. Take that away and you will know it.

I think if you look into these obvious things before going deeper it will be a good start.

Raymond

Ageing Grace

22nd October 2009, 10:01 AM

Hello, MMH & Lilybloom.

Thank you for writing here. You both strike me as paragons of patience & understanding! However wise, and however loving you are, it must be a struggle to maintain your self-esteem when there is such a void in your lives where intimacy ought to be. My life is pretty lonely these days, but this loneliness is nothing like the agony I felt while married: lying next to my husband; unacknowledged; unwanted; undesired. I admire your tolerance.

Stating the obvious, lack of marital sex is a problem when the couple's desires don't match. There are many happy couples who hardly ever have sex, just as there are many who still can't keep their hands off each other in old age!

Mismatched sexuality isn't always about frequency. It could be about individual styles of loving; a fetish that only thrills one partner; differing imaginations; changing expectations or, of course, the effects of age and illness.

Everybody knows that a healthy marriage is a balancing act. In all areas of our lives together, we need to give and take as we balance our partner's wishes with our own. Power shifts subtly from one to the other and back again: this actually strengthens the bond between partners and enhances intimacy.

What seems to have happened, in both of your marriages, is that the power balance has become skewed. Your husbands have made unilateral decisions about marital sex - in parallel, intimacy has become eroded leaving you (and quite possibly your husbands, too) feeling lonely and out of place. Quite simply, both men are behaving selfishly in the matter of sex.

Premature ejaculation is an expression of selfishness, too. That's why we forgive it in boys, but not in older men who should have learned the art of give-and-take. As Raymond says: excessive self-gratification, with or without pornography, often leads men to focus on fantasy and a quick ejaculation, at the expense of true loving sex. Again, this is selfish and causes a loss of intimacy.
this is NOT about a non-functioning male organ, it's about a husband who is not passionate about his wife, who is too selfish to think and use other ways to satisfy his wife
The reasons why a person might become selfish like this are many and varied. There could be an unpleasant past experience, buried for decades, which slowly poisons the mind. It could be a 'passive-aggressive' response to a power imbalance elsewhere in your relationship. It could stem from a fear of ageing, of feeling less virile than before. It could be caused by an illness, such as depression or diabetes. Or by an outside source of gratification, in the flesh or in fantasy.

In terms of the effect it has on you, the spurned partner, underlying reasons barely matter. There is an imbalance. Your desires and feelings are being permanently scorned in favour of his. No wonder you're unhappy.

Since you both say your husbands are unwilling to explore problems within the marriage, or in themselves, I don't think you'll get very far by searching for clues as to why this is happening. When you focus your own energies on worrying about him (what he thinks; what he wants; what he feels; what he 'should') - you are essentially pushing the balance even further towards him. That will make you even more unhappy, and destroy even more of what intimacy remains.

If you can manage it, I think you both need to take a much wider view of your marriage - and a more pragmatic one.

Are your needs & feelings being respected in all other areas? How much give-and-take is there, really, between you?
While you're thinking about it, are there areas where you have dismissed his wishes?
Has the balance in your marriage become rigid, rather than flowing evenly between you as time passes and things change?

I would ask friends and family for input on all the above, though I realise not everyone would like to do that. You could always post in these forums about it!

Are you still in touch with your own sexuality - do you still know what you want married sex to be like?
Do you still feel 'like a woman' in your own right?

It's great that you're both confident in your attractiveness.
I know from bitter experience, however, that it's easy to become fixated on how attractive we seem to other people. Past the age of 21 or so, that's not a particularly healthy way to be thinking.

Feeling sexy is more about feeling alive than mere cosmetic appeal.

So what to do about it?

You're clearly not getting anywhere by discussing it with your husbands. So don't. Actions speak louder than words!

First, your own self-love.

Get creative: take up a new sport, return to your old passions, join an art class, learn a new language, go to comedy clubs, jazz clubs - whatever floats your boat.
Make it your priority to fill your own life with joy and enthusiasm! Get back in touch with old friends, or make new ones. Accept invitations to do charity work, join church groups, visit new places.
Surprise yourself. Fall back in love with your self!

Next, your relationship.

Where you found stagnation, rigidity and control (on either side), change it! Don't talk about it, just do it. If you always do the accounts, ask his advice on family finances. If he always drives, take the keys and the wheel. If you wish he'd empty the dishwasher, just ask him. Hand him one end of the sheet when you're folding laundry. Compromise on how the family eats; just shake the rules around a little.
Where you feel under-appreciated, invite praise! Women are terrible at this: we get peeved when we're not praised, yet we're always putting ourselves down. Who's to know we wanted applause? Say "I'm really pleased with this dish I cooked / wall I painted / achievement at work / amusing story / new haircut / etc, ISN'T IT GREAT?"
Where you want more everyday affection, try to stay open for it without chasing it. I realise you've been doing it for a lifetime, but could you have simply fallen into 'closed' habits? When you both walk with hands in pockets, the possibility of holding hands has gone. If your hand swings loose, sometimes close to his, then the possibility is there. Maybe you could move a little closer when you're sharing a task, or a joke - you know: seduce him. Very gently.

Then there's sex.

There's no way you can force someone to initiate sex. As you know, pleading and yelling are both horrendous turn-offs. What you can do, however, is make yourself appropriately (and un-pushily) available. See if you can picture how you'd behave if you wanted an old friend, who'd never thought of you 'that way', to start thinking! Gently - subtly - slowly and nicely - available.
This works better if you completely abstain from initiating sex. I know it's hard, and feels weird, especially when you've built up loads of coping mechanisms to deal with your situation. But it's humane, low-risk, good fun once you've got started - and it can work!
One other idea, totally opposed to the above, is to mutually resolve to have sex every day for a year. This has also worked wonders for many stagnant couples! You start off agreeing that "you don't have to enjoy it, just do it anyway" and, apparently, you find fairly quickly that you're enjoying it after all. There's a sound logic behind this; I'm just not sure either of your partners would agree to it. What do you think?
There's a very simple technique to delay ejaculation, which I would tell you about if this were a more free-speaking forum! Beats me why they don't teach it to boys in high school, but the majority of men seem completely ignorant of it until somebody shows them ... Look it up on one of those other forums, Lilybloom, it will at least improve the experience for you both, if not resolve the bigger issue.

I'm very sorry this has been such a long (and rather dull) post. It just seems that so many people are suffering this painful, and private, problem - the more ideas we each put forward, the closer we might come to finding solutions that work for some couples.

When you become used to the idea that sex in your marriage is bad - or non-existent - that silent strain undermines so much of your relationship, doesn't it? The easy intimacy goes, we start to feel nervous around each other and everything starts to feel hopeless. But I don't believe it is - at least, not always. The process can be undone; it's finding the right mindset that takes time and effort.

My little story:

The first Mr Grace and I had stopped having sex. You know, we were always tired or busy - then one of us was ill & had to sleep in the spare room - then we'd sort of lost the habit - and started to feel awkward about sex - so we didn't do it at all - and stopped hugging each other, stopped kissing - and eventually almost stopped looking at one another. He pushed me off him a few times, and then my wounded pride stopped me trying.

After a lot of hard thinking (too little, too late) I decided on pretty much the approach I've outlined above. I chose to believe our downward spiral could spiral upward again, and I chose to feel positive. We got along much better, enjoying each other's company and having fun together again.

After even more time I tried again, only this time with all the tricks & trimmings I knew he liked (but had stopped caring about, because my pride was injured). He burst into tears. He said some lovely things, then he said "it's too late".

What he meant was that he'd already committed to someone else. It really was too late. He got involved with someone else because of the way we were; we were already downhill, she wasn't the cause of our problem. When he said "it's too late", he meant it would have worked if it had happened sooner.

With hindsight, I know that marriage wasn't a good one; it would have ended anyway, once I'd sorted myself out. I learned a very big lesson that time, though.

I learned that pride and dignity are two different things. Fragile, hard and brittle, pride has no place in a loving relationship. Dignity is honest, strong and flexible. It empowers love.

AG

mmh

22nd October 2009, 05:52 PM

Thanks, AG, for the encouragement. I know that my husband is not into porn or secretly masturbating. I also don't believe he's having an affair. As I stated before, I DO believe that it stems from past unhealthy relationships and being with dominant woman. I don't want to be a dominant woman or the "head of the household". I've always wanted my husband to be the one who makes the final decision, and me to nurture and take care of him. He's happy with me making ALL the decisions, taking care of the finances, etc. I HATE doing this because it causes alot of stress. He lived alone for 4 years between marriages, and was extremely independent. As soon as we married, he became passive, so I had to step up to the plate.

Now, for the sex situation. He has never been affectionate- except at the beginning of our relationship. I fell in love with him before he began to withdraw. Like most women, I thought once we married, I could change him. However, as I stated before, it's like we now have to deal with this issue since the focus isn't on anything else (i.e. his ex-wife, the children). I don't like the feeling of rejection from the other relationship and am tired of constantly thinking about him. I want to put those thoughts on my husband, but I'm finding that hard to do. I know that the other relationship was supposed to just be about sex. However, he provided me with the emotional and physical things that I've been missing. We both began to develop feelings for each other, and to protect himself, he broke things off. So, I'm not only dealing with the issues at home, but also a "break-up" that has caused me pain.

Other men flirt with me at work, and I flirt back. I enjoy feeling that men still find me attractive, since my husband doesn't make me feel that way. There are times when I wish I was single, so I could get my needs met without betraying my husband. On the other hand, I like the companionship and knowing that there's someone here for me.

I'm so confused and am miserable about this situation. Depression is an issue for me, but lately, it's gotten worse. I cry for no reason and hardly ever laugh anymore. I've thought about just going away somewhere to gain perspective on everything. But, I have no money and don't want to return to my parents' home. Last night, I ordered several books recommended on this site. I'm hoping my husband will participate and be willing to do what the books say to "rekindle" our relationship.

I've talked to several friends about this situation, but they don't know what I'm feelings. I hate that any of us have to go through this. But, having the support of someone going through the same thing does provide some comfort. I will definitely keep up the these posts and am thankful for any/all advice.

Thanks!

amberheller

22nd October 2009, 07:46 PM

I am so sorry to admit that this horrible situation has befallen me as well... I am 29 and have been married for 9 and half years. Before marriage my husband was more attentive, well way before marriage anyway, we would be affectionate, "make out" and touched all the time... then as we got closer to getting married he began to pull back from me and became less affectionate...
When we do have sex and it is not making love, it is just sex... he is not interested in sex at all, but does because I ask him... less than once a month. Lets just say that his graciousness is wasted because it is not a good experience for me even when he complies. He does not touch me he does not kiss me he doesn't even look at me. (that makes a girl feel really good by the way, yeah right) We did not have sex before marriage.

We have other issues on top of very infrequently having sex... he has anger issues, is very controlling, criticizes me about my efforts and browbeats me constantly about my injustices to him. My husband has OCD. Per my husband, I am, lazy, mediocre, have time management issues, and I am a weight on his ankle holding him back from his attempts to make something of himself and succeed in providing for the family. He says that every couple argues and while I agree because marriage isn't a giving up of ones every idea. However we do not argue, if I differ from his opinion then I am wrong and dont have a say...he will get loud and oppressive and verbally abusive... until I back down.

Back to the topic at hand, I was, am a very affectionate person, I liked holding hands, hugging, kissing... I get none now... My husbands idea of a day well spent is getting up going to work (in the winter) or doing self employment in summer and then coming home for dinner (he winds up yelling at me for something EVERY day)then our kids ages 3 and 18 months will be tearing the place up like only kids can do, or playing too loud, or upset about something and he will leave to go and hang out with his buddies... He is maybe around when I put the kids to bed 1 or 2 nights a week... and that isn't till 9pm or so... then he will go out after too... he very rarely goes to bed when I do. I find him up many nights VERY late on the computer even though he tells me to get him up early... He NEVER gets up when he is up late. He IS usually looking at car stuff online and a lot of porn. If I am up he will take the laptop in the bathtub with him to "Research" things... I have expressed my discomfort with this and he tells me that I need to back off that all men do it and to leave him alone

I feel very self critical about everything he has my self esteem so eroded that he can have me believing that all of our problems are my fault. I am smart enough and trained enough (masters degree in social work) that I know he is wrong but I am constantly pushed aside by him either by his lack of presence or by his lack of desire for me. The cycle of abuse is very alive in our relationship with me just waiting for a blow up from him and then recovering from the blow up waiting for the next one. The lack of intimacy is the hardest for me to deal with. One other poster on here talked about a husband that does things and provides for his family is good, but anyone can do that... that is how I feel... No one else can have sex with me and the one person that can, wont. I filed for divorce over a year ago with the reasons of I think they called it structured abandonment (no sex) and cruel and inhumane treatment. I gave him another chance, the suit was never taken back though and I am very close to pursuing it. The last time that he kissed me in a way that I could not kiss any one of you on the board was August a year ago when I gave him another chance. The time before that was the May before we got married... I am intimacy starved, driven mad by desire my husband wont even acknowledge let alone fulfill, very busy with 2 kids plus more children with an in home daycare and many animals that I raise and sell, beaten down by his constant displeasure with me and incessant verbal abuse of me.

I am a christian, but my husband wont let me go to church because he cant be there due to work and so I don't have that support system so I am coming to you guys and gals for some help.

I am taking my problems to god and having him help me look into my heart and see if I have the desire to give him more chances. I love the father of my children but dont know if I love HIM any more... or did I ever? I am scared.

I feel lonely even in the presence of a crowd, and know that I am way more woman than I am right now. I want to raise good children that have a good idea of what a husband and a wife can be so they dont make the same mistakes I have made.

I have asked him if he finds me attractive and he assures me that he does but that doesn't change anything. When a man tells you that you are attractive and then goes and looks at pictures and video to get his "fix" especially when he has a willing wife less than 20 feet away, It HURTS.

thanks everyone, that was very disjointed as it is the first time I have tried to write it all out, but I appreciate your willingness to listen and read...

Amber

mmh

22nd October 2009, 08:25 PM

Amber,

I, too have my MSW, and work as a therapist. It's very hard to know that me and my husband need counseling, but he won't go. And, like you, my husband was extremely affectionate before we began a sexual relationship (we waited 9 months before we had sex). He's only been with one other woman (his ex-wife) and when we first got together, it was exciting and passionate. Several months after our sexual relationship began, he began to withdraw and no longer initiated it.

I, too, am a Christian. What concerns me is that I don't feel guilty about the affair I had, and to be honest, I would have another one. I have talked to my husband so many times about this, but he does not see that we have a problem. He does not kiss me unless we are going to have sex, because he does not "see the point". We have opposite kissing styles, so even though our sex life is good (when we have sex), his kissing no longer turns me on.

I miss that passion and excitement we had when we first got together. His thoughts? No one can be together as long as we have and still have passion. I miss that and want it back! My self-esteem has gotten so low because he never looks at me THAT WAY. I can walk through the house naked, and he doesn't even look away from the TV. I talked to a male friend of mine, who said that this is not normal. He said that I should be beating him off with a stick because he should respond when I'm naked. I have back problems for which I take medication and it has caused me to put on some weight. I'm constantly worried that is the problem, although my husband says it's not. He was this way when I hadn't gained weight, so I believe him.

His first wife left him for another man, and while I could not understand how someone could do this, I now understand. I have even threatened to find someone else to meet my needs, but he just thinks I'm joking. I can tell him about things other men say to me, and he just laughs. I don't know if he doesn't think I'll cheat or if he just doesn't care anymore.

I don't know what to do.

Raymond

22nd October 2009, 08:29 PM

Amberheller there seems to be many problems going on here. One of the biggies for me is the porn. That can have a devastating effect on the marital intimacy. Read through some of these threads on it and you will see what I mean. It is really mental adultery and does divert the sexual drive onto these women he looks at on online. As a christian you will know that Jesus said if a man looks at a woman to lust after her he has committed adultery with her already in his heart. Isn't this happening in porn? As a man I know it is. How can God honour his marriage when that is happening?

You have to confront this Amberheller as it is not right. No all men do not do it. You don't have to be militant just confront in a normal voice. It will be hard to have a happy marriage with this going on. His intimacy should be with you and only you. Commitment means sexual commitment as well. One wonders what he is doing in the bath with his laptop quite frankly.

Maybe some of the other problems come from the porn as well in the way you have been replaced by this stuff. It is quite potent and can seriously affect ones spiritual life and relationship with God. To get free one must really want it and even then it will be a battle depending on how long it has been going on. A good movie that might help is "Fireproof" if you can get hold of it.

What you must remember is there is nothing wrong with you so don't let your self esteem be affected. It happens to very attractive women as well and the problem is the porn and what it does to a man. I'd really try and get some fellowship if you can. It is a big spiritual battle taking place in the part of your marriage which is supposed to be the most intimate and you will need all the help you can get. If he refuses to change you just might have to sadly use that option you spoke about.

Raymond

amberheller

22nd October 2009, 09:52 PM

Thank you for your quick replies! My husband is on his way cross country right now to work for a month and a half. He just talked to me about a radio program he heard on focus on the family with marriage experts talking about "True intimacy" He must feel that we have some intimacy to make that distinction. I do not know him anymore, and HE DOES NOT KNOW ME AT ALL. my friends have commented on how I am two different people, the one with my H and the one without him...

I actually got into an argument with him over being verbally aggressive with me when he is angry about something else to which he tried to play on me that the speakers talked about bringing up issues when the time is right, and that isn't the right time... Well buddy the time isn't right for me to criticise you so the time was NOT right to get aggressive with me... see what I mean with the way we cant even argue right?

And forget about kissing and making up HA that will never happen... it is more likely to happen with him thousands of miles away than with him here (obviously not possible, but that is how likely he is to show me any affection)

I had a really horrible experience with a puppy that I had here and wound up having to surrender her for medical treatment. I was very emotional and he was prompted by one of my friends to be easy on me and be nice. He came in and asked me "Are you ok? Do you need a hug?" I almost fell out of my seat I know my jaw dropped at his question... how sad is that (I found out today that my friend had prompted it). and then I went to him for a hug, he put his arms around me and squeezed once real quick, backed up and changed the subject... so then I felt upset about the puppy but had a nice feeling of rejection piled on top of it.

It is so upsetting because he says I am his dream woman and others have said I am attractive but by now people give me compliments and I don't want to draw attention to myself by disagreeing but in my mind I kinda snort and say yeah right your funny... too bad my blushing gives me away. Ive had a couple people say what don't you beleive that you are attractive, sexy, whatever fill in the blank... and I reply either no or if it is a friend I say no, not when my husband is not interested in me at all...

Oh and ive tried walking around naked too... doesn't work here either... Ive tried initiating some acts with him (without geting explicit) in order to get him aroused hoping for more-even asking for more which is self injuring too because what woman wants to have to ASK for sex from a fully aroused man when you are OBVIOUSLY willing. Sometimes I am given in to but he cant get into it with me... more frequently he says not now and just requires me to continue... or even more hurtfully he has gotten up and left.

He talks a good talk and mentions getting involved with studying about marriages but I served him with divorce papers before (which he criticized me for doing again today) but even then he didn't make the changes that I need him to make... and in the past week he pushed me for tapping him on the ribs for picking on our baby and then the next night shoved our 3 year old for accidentally kneeing him in the face because he was angry with me.

Well im tired, dumping that feels good but wow its draining to think of it all at once.

thanks again, Amber

mmh

22nd October 2009, 10:29 PM

Amber,

Although our situations are different in many ways, I see SO MANY similarities. When I was having my affair, the other guy could become aroused by just talking to me. I have literally straddled my husband and began kissing him, only to receive no reaction from him. Like you, I have trouble accepting compliments- people have commented on this to me. I'm self-conscious about myself, which also brings comments. Although I'm no great beauty, I am evidently attractive, as men tell me I am. But, I'm always talking about my weight and other features that I'm ashamed of. A guy at work asked me the other day if I was ashamed of my body. When I said that I was, he told me that he could tell by the way I act when he compliments me. I NEVER get compliments from the man who I want to impress, so I assume that he no longer finds me attractive and desirable. If he doesn't find me that way, why should anyone else? I've found myself wanting to be around men who do flirt with me and compliment me. I dress up on the days when I know they're gonna be at work so I can get attention. Isn't that horrible and kind of sad?

MMH

amberheller

22nd October 2009, 11:07 PM

Oh, MMH I feel your pain... and it is definitely sad, but after all we are only human... we strive to make the right decisions but sometimes especially when we feel so horrible it can be hard. I also see the similarities between our stories and I am actually struggling with figuring out if my love is strong enough to make a go at it again. I feel so washed out and so devastated that I am not sure that I have enough to give to my husband to work at it to make the marriage even near what it should be. So there now I feel guilty for my weakness too... I have prayed a lot and felt like I would be able to work it out a year ago... but the hope that I had has made me even more down now because I saw how far my hope and efforts got me...

I have actually researched medications, foods, and stuff to try to decrease -eliminate- my sex drive because I cannot take being rejected any more. I have thought about just performing when he requires me, but eliminating myself from the equation to save my mental health. I reasoned that if I make the decision to not have sex then it wont hurt quite as much because he wont have the power to make me feel bad. The rejection hurts too bad. I realized quickly though that it is the lack of physical emotional and spiritual intimacy that I am lacking and that by taking myself out of the equation to avoid rejection sexually would not fix that.

One night after I tried to get him to participate with me and he pushed me away and then went out with his friends to work on a car I cried myself to sleep and it took hours to fall to sleep so I don't know when he got home... I just don't think he cares. He says he does, but words aren't the loudest sign here, the actions are... or maybe the lack thereof.

And the feeling of people flirting with you is really hard, Ive felt it too... it is like a small flush of heat on a frozen land or a small sprinkle of water on parched ground. You get a tiny flicker of what life was or could be and while it feels good... sometimes that little bit makes it hurt even worse when you return to your reality and realize that you must just survive again without it, be it heat water or intimacy :(

Amber

mmh

23rd October 2009, 01:27 AM

Amber,

I know what you mean about trying to decide if you've got the strength to make it work. I think that my husband loves me as much as he can. However, I don't think he has the ability to love me as much as I love him. Like your husband, he says he cares and that he loves me. But his actions show something different. I threatened to leave him about 3 weeks ago, but he asked me to stay. For a few days, he treated me with a little more attention. That stopped. Then we went for over 2 weeks with no sex and no mention of it.

I have put up with so much during the 12 years we have been together. But, I've stayed, hoping that one day, he would put me first and make me a priority. His children are 21 and 17, so they no longer depend on him as they once did. His ex-wife, who has caused numerous problems for us, has chilled out. So, one would think that since we have no children, we would have a great marriage and spend lots of time together. But, we don't. I have talked to him until I'm just tired. I even bought a Dr. Phil "Relationship Rescue" book. I completed about half of it and read my answers to my husband. His response? "There wasn't anything in there that I didn't already know." He then continued to watch TV. I'm tired of sleeping alone (he sleeps on the couch because I snore. But when we go out of town, he can tolerate it). I don't know how much longer I can take it. After I threatened to leave, I decided to give him about 4 weeks before I made a decision- and the decision would be based on how his actions. And, nothing's changed. My needs are not his needs and I feel they should be. I don't think me and you are asking too much. Marriage shouldn't be one-sided and it sounds like it has become that way for both of us. I'll pray for you and thanks for your support. Let me know if you need to vent.

Meg (MMH)

amberheller

23rd October 2009, 03:36 AM

MMH I am sitting here after getting into another fun phone fight with my husband over other people's perceptions of him leaving his family to go thousands of miles away for his ski teaching career... He was getting verbally agressive with me and wouldn't let me get off the phone even though I was eating dinner that I had cooked for hours with our children and 2 of our friends. He was complaining to me very loudly that when he excitedly tells people about his plans their first question is always about how his wife feels about this and are we ok alone. He was so angry and fired up about this that he was trying to convince me that him going away for a total of just over 4 months a year was akin to someone going away with the military... I didn't see the connection and told him as much and he got even more mad and wouldn't let me off the phone till I agreed... he also attacked my family for not supporting him and stated that his family is much more supportive. I pointed out that his mother and his brother and sister in law all feel that he should not be doing what he is doing so that making my family evil and his grand just to support his argument was trash. He doesnt get what him CHOOSING to ski away from home does to us (while I am happy that he is gone if I must speak the truth and much less stressed) our daughter is broken up... how do I tell a 3 year old that daddy is away working for a quarter of a year by his choice and therefore is choosing skiing over her? Her behavior was HORRIBLE today and she is too young to connect that she is grumpy because daddy is not here... that is my only reservation with divorcing him :( whick means I should probably do it :(

Ageing Grace

23rd October 2009, 08:48 AM

Hi, MMH & Amber

No, it's not horrible of you to seek the validation you need by dresing up for work! Sad that you need it so badly, but that's not your fault ... it's actually healthy to know you can attract admiration at will :)

MMH: Since you are a therapist, it'd be interesting to know your thoughts about your husband's passive aggression? What you said about his ceding all responsibility to you upon marriage makes it look like he could be a classic case. In a textbook, he'd be acting out some historical fear & resentment of women (not you in particular, just your bad luck). Of course there could be other reasons for his behaviour change - I'm thinking of my Aspie ex - but passive aggression seems to fit your bill so far.

Since it isn't your choice to be in charge of everything, I really think you have to do something about the imbalace of power, rights & responsibilities within your relationship. It may not fix your sex life - but it will, at least, alter the dynamic between you for the better and, more urgently, mitigate your own feelings of resentment. Can I suggest it's time you booked yourself in for an assertiveness course?! Either with a colleague or with yourself, as long as you start putting it into practise ... ;)

Amber: You are suffering spousal abuse in so many ways. Your husband is a bully. Frankly, I think your sex problem is the least of your worries right now - although I'd suggest he's using his preference for porn as yet another means of putting you down. Grrr.

Being nice to bullies doesn't work. You have two choices (other than quitting). You can fight tooth & nail, or adopt a calm & dignified stance - in which you simply don't respond to his negativity. That is, respond if you like but only in a clear and practical way. Did you read Yogamad's thread here, entitled "My husband hates my family"? Her current thread shows just how far she's come, in the space of a few months :)

For both of you, the sex thing seems to be part of a greater and more pervasive problem in your marriage. It's not as if the whole thing would sort itself out, if only you had a good sex life - unfortunately :(

Please look after yourselves: especially Amber, you need to get back to church and work on your self-love. I wish you all the best - if only I could travel this particular path with you in person (I've had so much experience with bullies, blast them!). Virtual hugs will have to do for now.

AG xx

amberheller

23rd October 2009, 03:47 PM

Meg it is funny that you and I found each other on here... and that we both have the same degree... and therefore at least similar education. I feel lucky to have found you and feel like we have been in this about the same length of time as well. Ive been with my husband for 11 and a half years and married 9 and a half... :(

AG I feel that you unfortunately have more experience with bullies that I would want anyone to... I am sure that he is a bully just NEVER thought of that word for him. It seems in my professional career I was VERY capable of fixing everyone else and assisting others in their relationship work, but never in my own. My husband draws on that too highlighting my lack of ability to put my well learned training to work. He helped to take away some of my confidence in my skills over the years because while I could work wonders with others, I couldn't help myself at all. And I think your comment to Meg fits here to as my husband says he has forgiven his mother, but had blamed her for his father's death from heart attack... due to stress. Oddly, he is his mother and so hes treating me like she did him and he cant get past it, but still refuses to let me have any say partly because he wont let us argue like they did. WOW never realized how sick that really is. he is not good at forgiving at all.

I am too new to this forum to know if I will get in trouble for this thread getting off track... help please... if I am creating problems I will back off even though I am really thankful for the support and fellowship :)

Here is the one other thing that I am struggling with right now, because I have come to the conclusion that I have 2 obvious choices leave or stay. I am trying to figure out my own heart with gods help and decide if I have strength enough and love enough (for him) to continue. But if I decide to go... now I stated before that I am a christian and I believe in god, but i am not experienced with the bible and though I feel that I have god shaping my decision I could really use help understanding if in my case leaving ie- divorcing would be seen as wrong. To tell you the truth the only time I feel at peace is when I pray and become action oriented and decide to consider leaving... but I know enough to know that forces opposite from god can create feelings too and I want to make sure i am following the right side! Our god is a just and kind god and I want to make sure that I am doing what HE wants even if that is staying here for some greater calling but I don't feel that is the way that I am being shown.

Thank you so much everyone,

Amber

Ageing Grace

23rd October 2009, 10:25 PM

Bless you, Amber, you won't get told off :)

Somebody like Raymond can give you better guidance on god & divorce. Meanwhile, I feel that prayer/meditation does help us to find our true path. So do writing down our thoughts & feelings and getting other points of view - which is where these forums come in handy!

Possibly you won't be able to seriously consider leaving until you have tried everything. Without knowing your husband, I haven't a clue whether he's likely to respond to steady assertiveness on your part. When a person has got used to bolstering their own ego by trampling on someone else's, a total change of attitude by the underdog can really throw a spanner in the works. It might help to clarify your own thoughts, too - it's hard to make decisions when you've lost faith in your ability to do anything right :(

Dealing with a bully spouse is different from dealing with a workplace bully. The aim is to genuinely improve the relationship, rather than win a power game. Therefore I tend to recommend a 'calm, charm and detachment' offensive ;) An advantage of this is that you can amuse yourself (and your friends) greatly while doing it ... everything's better if you can get a chuckle out of it!

For most bullies, it's just not as much fun when you don't get a reaction. If your husband is likely to escalate his attacks to violence, then non-reaction would be a poor choice. Nonetheless, you do need to regain a foothold in your marriage so as to help your self respect.

Is writing here doing anything to help you get a clearer view of your dilemma?

Remember to take very good care of your self! I still keep self-affirming flash cards in my handbag, and I'm not ashamed of it :D

AG xx

mmh

24th October 2009, 05:00 AM

Amber,

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but this is the first opportunity I've had to get on the computer today.

I'm no Bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but with my sister having gone through a divorce and remarrying, I have studied some on the subject. Plus, my husband was married before, so I looked to the Bible for answers before I married him. This is what I feel the Bible states about marriage and divorce. If a Christian is married to a non-Christian, he/she is not to leave their spouse because they are not a Christian. They are to witness to their spouse and pray that the Holy Spirit convicts them and they accept the Lord. However, if the Christian does choose to leave- for adultery, abuse, etc.- God does not hold that person accountable for the marriage. Does that make sense? I will try to find that scripture in the Bible because I can't remember it off the top of my head.

Like you, I am great at fixing other people's problems- just not my own. I have to agree that your husband sounds like a bully. Working at a residential treatment facility with teenage boys who have emotional and/or behavior problems, I deal with bullies all day long. I also deal with their victims. I have to agree with the AG regarding how you can handle this situation. It seems that he only wants a response from you and continues bullying as long as he gets that response. If you act like you don't care what he says, he will probably stop doing it. However, be careful. I don't know if he's physically abusive, but I'd hate to suggest you do this and then he become enraged.

Having married a man with children and having 2 nieces whose parents are divorced, I understand your concerns about your daughter. However, my husband, whose parents are also divorced, has stated many times that he was glad when they split up. He was 14 and said that the fighting was worse than the divorce. If the only reason you're staying is because of her, don't. She's so young that if you get out of this, she won't remember y'all fighting and his treatment of you. If you stay, you need to think about what she's going to have to witness and do you want her to grow up, thinking that this is normal, only to wind up in the same type of marriage?

Like AG said, you are the victim of abuse. As you know, there are so many kinds of abuse- he doesn't have to hit you to abuse you. Divorce is hard on everyone. But, you've got to decide if this is the kind of life you want to have or if you want to cut your losses and move on. You deserve so much better.

Meg

P.S. Do you live in the U.S. or the UK?

mmh

24th October 2009, 05:14 AM

AG,

Thanks for your support and encouragement. My husband is certainly passive aggressive and I believe that it stems from his past. His mother spent his childhood complaining of various illnesses. He was the one to take care of her. When he was about 11, he realized that there was nothing really wrong with her and she was doing this to get attention. Needless to say, he lacks compassion and sympathy for others. (I have severe back problems and have to admit that he does have compassion for me. But, I think it's because he knows that I'm not faking in order to get his sympathy). His mother yelled as his father ALL THE TIME! She threatened to divorce him for several years before they finally split. His father would tune her out and just ignore her. This is how my husband responds when we fight. I've learned not to yell at him if I want him to listen to me. Otherwise, he just shuts out what I'm saying.

His ex-wife became pregnant when they were in high school. His mother had a fit, stating that she hoped the baby died. This caused severe tension between his mother and his then wife and they never got along. His ex-wife tried to keep him from his mother and would make it difficult for the two of them. (His mother later apologized for the statement, but his wife couldn't forgive her). He had never had sex with anyone else, and he loved her. But, he said that shortly into their marriage, she changed. I'm not just saying this because she's his ex, but she is extremely manipulative and selfish. She would humiliate him in front of others, always putting him down. She left him for another man, and my husband tried to get her back. She laughed at him. She once called him to ask him which lingerie looked best on her because her new boyfriend was coming over. After he and I began dating, she wanted him back and would bring the new boyfriend over to his apartment while I was there. After 12 years after their divorce, I believe she regrets leaving him. I (and their youngest daughter) believe that she still loves him. However, she is still emotionally abusive to him and talks horrible about him to their daughters. She's rude, money hungry, and mean.

So, enter me. I hate confrontation and am NOT assertive. (I liked your comment about me needing to go to assertiveness classes. I agree). I have put up with so many things during the time we've been together, but have stayed because I love him. I never wanted us to split up for any other reason (i.e. his ex, his children, etc.) than we had problems. But now, we have problems. I've always known that he was passive aggressive because I have become irate at how he deals (or refuses to deal) with his ex-wife. But, I never thought that there would be this wall between us that he doesn't feel or acknowledge. We went out tonight and had a great time. However, tomorrow he will go hunting and we'll go right back to the way we've been.

Thanks again. Any further advice is greatly needed and would be greatly appreciated.

Meg (MMH)

amberheller

25th October 2009, 04:32 AM

Meg, I am in the US... and I am having a very hard time tonight... maybe the vent will help bring some clarity, I just wrote this out to a friend too for some feedback, hopefully Ill catch all the less than appropriate descriptors and this will be ok for the forum... here's to trying...

My parents came over today so that my dad could help me bury Saylor (my dog of 9 years that was 14)... he was heavy in life, in death, just about impossible... I told my H they were coming and his concern was for me to tell then what he is doing cross country and that it is work not just playing around... I tried, but my Father's take on the whole thing and if I am honest to myself I feel this way too... his take is that for what my H is making skiing there is no way that he should be prioritizing that over the family. In fact he feels that Matt is just leaving me high and dry with all the responsibilities while he goes off and plays... I don't go quite that far, but it is a CHOICE by him to leave us and work at in Colorado early and late season, it IS his choice to put his skiing dreams and goals ahead of being with us, and it is his choice to make himself happy instead of miserable doing what he loves instead of using his education and training (hes a registered dietician-and hates that work but could make a decent living doing hospital work with it) but am I wrong to be offended some by it???

I don't know what to do about my husband now that he is gone away for work, I am torn... by phone he is very pushy and very demanding, but many of his more frequent and more serious annoyances are absent. I have always been a bit too patient for MY own good. Now on the drive out he heard some speakers with focus on the family -did I mention this already??? sorry if I did -but he is now all about applying their principles to improve our relationship...like picking when and how to correct your spouse and working on True Intimacy (He corrects me all the time and gets ANGRY if I correct him when hes not in the mood to be corrected and to have True Intimacy wouldn't it be helpful to have even a speck of it beforehand!) Like I have said millions of times he is a good talker... you could talk to him even knowing what you know and leave the conversation really thinking he is a great guy ok at least a good guy... or if you pushed him too far, you'd see he can be just as I describe... Most people don't push him, but once the newness wears off on his friendships he doesn't put on the show when they visit and they begin to get peeks into how he really is by way of his reactions with me.

So pretty much I again feel obligated to see if he can follow through with the relationship improvement theory... the really hard part is that I don't really know if I want to :( How evil is that??? I don't know if our relationship being better than what it is now is enough. I don't know if I want to settle for whatever he sees as good because he is so self centered that good for him is obviously not anywhere near acceptable for me... he thinks things are ok right now to highlight that...

Even worse, I feel so awkward with him that if he were to even just change overnight, I don't know if I could take it I don't know if I could receive his affection... I am not sure if I told you that when I took him back after the divorce thing that he kissed me and more, but the kissing was the improtant part for me, always was for arousal, but anyway, he kissed me... like not making out kiss but more than I would be comfortable doing to someone I didn't know very well... (like a peck kiss)... I was so shocked by him kissing me that I honestly couldn't remember how to kiss... I was so tied up in the shock that I didn't enjoy it, or maybe I just didn't enjoy it :( I don't like his hands on my breasts (sorry I couldn't sub that one) because they are just objects to him and there is NO concept of pleasing me through them so when he touches them I internally withdraw... I never let him know because I wouldn't want to spoil my chances, but I don't like his touch... His touch is selfish that is why I think... he won't touch me through the day... except those little insulting peck kisses...he has not kissed me again since a year ago august and then if he happens to be in bed and want any "services" he just rolls over and rubs my back and asks me to help him out... that is it in the touch Amber category... too bad if Amber doesn't feel like giving him anything because if I don't then I hear about it in the morning when the insults start rolling that I don't do anything around the house and don't DO anything for him and it is intensified 10X by his not being helped by me... I learned REALLY FAST that if I just agree and perform what he wants then I have an easier time of it going to sleep (hes woken up our son before yelling at me when Ive denied him) and a WAY easier time in the morning...

I actually dont mind the actual acts that he wants me to do, but as part of a functional sex life would be great... I have been doing research on porn and it has become very clear to me that he is visualizing what he is has seen when he is with me... Ie... I have to ask him if he is asleep even when I am doing things unless he is forcing me to do things that he has seen that he knows I cant do... sorry again... I have cried and he doesn't show any care... and if we are actually having sex, many times his eyes are closed like hes not even there... well hes not, cuz hes not participating... so now I know that even when my husband IS with ME he is not REALLY with me, but some other well endowed woman that he has followed for years online that he can imagine his grabbing her and hes seen she performs certain things so when I cant hes offended cuz I ruin his fantasy... I know that porn can be an addiction... but I am tired of it... and all its implications...

so at least 2 separate issues there... Meg and AG maybe your thoughts are more needed with the what do I do where to I go from here the other part too though, and maybe Raymond if you happen to see this if you could weigh in on the porn part Id really appreciate it... of course anyone else too but we seem kinda isolated on here girls! thanks for all the support I wouldn't trade it!

Amber

Raymond

25th October 2009, 10:31 AM

Amber with regard to the porn your husband is showing all the classic symptons. I don't understand how he can read Dobson and still do porn. It is a mental adultery. His mind will be filled with the women he watches on it. When he is having sex with you they are there in his head. (you don't switch them off that easily, this stuff is addictive) It sounds like he is playing out the porn using you. His mind will be on them however. Porn figures in 50% of divorces in the States in some way or other.

This stuff destroys intimacy slowly and surely. Marriage and intimacy is between husband and wife only. Porn can be a diversion of the sexual drive taking away from the true God given intimacy in the bedroom. Until he comes off this and gets the victory the bedroom will not blossom as it should. There is nothing wrong with his sex drive. It has just been contaminated with the porn. I thought that any christian knew this.

It is good that he is reading Dobson. I am sure he writes about this in some of his books. All our sexual needs (including visual) should only be met by our wives and vice versa. That is part of the sanctity of marriage.

I've written quite a lot on this if you trail through the old threads.

Raymond

mmh

25th October 2009, 11:23 PM

Amber,

I'm gonna give you my email address. Email me when you can. There's a couple of things I'd like to talk about, but not on a post. If you're not comfortable with that, then just let me know. Maybe we can figure some things out on what both of us are going to do.

Meg

Ageing Grace

26th October 2009, 02:39 AM

Amber, your last post was heartbreaking. Yes, I do know the feelings you're describing and the thought of you living your whole life like this horrifies me.

This not normal, nor acceptable.

Please take care to shore yourself up - emotionally, physically and financially. It's important.

Sending you love,
AG

amberheller

26th October 2009, 04:44 AM

Through praying and talking to supportive friends I feel like I am closing in on some type of clarity here... Maybe... I am finding that whenever I am thinking for myself and feeling good about my ideas, my H is not included :(

I find that when I talk to him he is pushy, unsupportive, and blames me for everything (ex-I spent the day at my parents came home late, and missed having the kids to bed by our designated talking time of 930 the change in routine had the kids all riled and it took longer to get them situated tonight. this created a situation where my H repeatedly, over 5 times, criticised me telling me that I was not doing well and not respecting him because he had to drive 5 minutes to the store to get reception on the phone and because I didn't follow through with the PLAN I was wasting his time and ruining his planned conversation tonight. His conversation had to do with bills and what I had to do which we talked about and because he has OCD he had to repeat 4 times and waste our time that way, setting up reminders in my phone for him and things that he has to do while away... hello im happy to help, but ask me to do something once and check for completion once if I say it is done, it is done... stop badgering me! and then he wants to talk about the focus on the family speakers that he heard and research them to work on our relationship... but all the while stopping everytime the kids made a noise to complain that he cant concentrate. the 5th or 6th time he criticised me I lost my patience and said to him Look, I am sorry that this did not work out as planned, and I will take responsibility for that, but once you get to over 5 times of telling me how horrible I am for doing something, my feelings begin to turn to anger. So now, instead of feeling bad for "messing up" I feel that I need to tell you that while you had to drive 5 minutes to be able to talk to me, I am here trying to complete a task that is much more involved. Not only do you NEVER put the kids to bed by yourself, but you never do so with me either to have any sense of what it takes to do it. Today was a day that was messed up by our schedule and tomorrow I will try my best to make the 930 talk time work out to better suit you. Additionally I pointed out that it is not as easy of a thing as me driving 5 minutes away at 925 to meet him to talk, that I have 2 budding individuals here with minds of their own that dont always cooperate with my plan... To which he response was silence... and then was to make the demand that "no Amber I don't want you to tell me that you will try your best I need you to commit to making it happen to completing the task and making it work... have the kids in bed at 930 so that we can have an adult conversation and get some business things worked out" I am here feeling good after my day with the kids and here he goes bossing me around not being happy with my best (which would likely have gotten the task done) and instead has to make demands to control me. That made me mad! I then to be able to get off the phone with him told him that I would commit to getting the kids to bed by 930... AHHHHH I just want to scream at him and tell him off and let him know that I am a person too... but alas that would just make him feel that he needed to come home to DEAL with me and then I would be responsible for messing up his precious work and ruining his opportunities and being a weight tied to his ankles holding him down :(

His "guiding" of me is pushing me right out of our marriage- among other factors:rolleyes:.

Sorry for the vent Im just so frustrated! A

yogamad

27th October 2009, 11:03 AM

Hi Amber and Meg

I know you've read some of my threads Amber but I really do appreciate what you're both going through as I've gone through it also and only just coming out the other end.

AG has given you advice to do new things, take up new hobbies, visit old friends etc. She also gave me the same advice and it slowly started to work for me. I accepted every invitation I was given, looked up old friends, made myself very busy and I become a happier person in my own right. At work people I wasn't so friendly with, I made the effort to try to get to know them better. I've made some new friends through old friends. Basically my confidence and self esteem soared so that when H put me down I felt more able to deal with it and found it didn't upset me as much as it once did.

Also, AG said to not give a response when H puts you down. H put me down all the time and eventually I learned to put him in his place calmly and without raising my voice or ignoring him altogether. Amber next time H phones you and isn't very nice, I would calmly tell him that unless he can speak to you properly then not to bother ringing again because you won't answer. I hate being told what to do and it really used to get on my nerves when H told me to do this and that and what I was doing wrong all the time.

Eventually I told him that I'd moved on and he didn't like it at all, that was the big turn around for us and the next day he was more affectionate and caring. Before I had threatened to leave, that I wasn't happy any more but the fact that I'd moved on and he could see that I was happy really unnerved him I think.

Things can change I promise you if you both want it and work at it. I could never imagine even kissing my H but yet here we are now having a good sex life again.

Good luck to you both. I'm thinking of you.
Yoga
x

amberheller

30th October 2009, 02:01 AM

So hi everyone... I have decided to send my husband an email laying it all on the line so if I do leave he cant say that he didn't know why... with some of the graphic descriptions toned down I am going to put the letter here for some advice. Do you think I should send him this... any suggestions, critiques... HELP! Amber here it is and thanks again

Our relationship... we can talk more about it, but I am a happy person, a happy mom, a happy woman... my friends all see me this way. You don't see me being happy because I am NOT a happy wife. You see me as being depressed when really I am so used to the negativity coming from you that I am worn out. I don't get to be fun, spontaneous, lively, humorous. I don't have the ability to put on the happy face... Ive tried... and I just get slapped by the criticisms and put downs and mean words...it is more of a disappointment to be happy and cheerful and get slapped down than to be down already and expect it. I am to the point of resentment and I hate it. I was frustrated when it took you a few extra days to leave and if things are the same when you come back, I will dread early December. You are critical, overbearing, self absorbed, and not interested in me at all. That is no interest in me with my hopes, dreams, ideas, and me physically/ sexually.

Our marriage has transformed into a scenario where we are merely roommates living too close of quarters to contain the animosity, hence you are never here. You spend time here, but it is time spent in parallel to us, not really with us. You have to work and get things done, but Id rather have you gone 90% of the time and actually SPEND the 10% with us than be here half the time and not be able to handle the stress that having young kids entails and have to get out of here and hang out with you buddies all evening. The time when much of our family stuff happens, after the daycare kids go, you cant handle to be around us and so you miss alot, and the kids miss you, and we miss a bonding time as a couple... there is nothing more important in life that we can do together than raise our kids. I find that I am insulted that you spend many more nights out with the guys during a week at Cumberland farms, at school house pizza, at rocky's shop, at Alex's, or many other places that you frequent.

In the above I describe my lack of time with you, but it is also a lack of connection made by sharing in activities, bonding over our lives and our children... one of my other main issues is our lack of intimacy. Ok, Im being nice, our complete lack of intimacy. AT one point, I used to be a touchy feely kind of person... I used to love to hug and kiss and touch and hold... You peck kiss me... perhaps out of a sense of obligation... I don't know... but the last time you kissed me was the night in mid august when we came back here after dinner when we went out to talk about how to work past the divorce stuff. Matt, I was so shocked that you kissed me that I didn't even know how to kiss you... it wasn't fun, it wasn't arousing, I just was floored... the last time you kissed me before that was the may before our wedding... you never touch me, you never hug me unless I ask, and then it is a quick squeeze and you let me go... like you are uncomfortable touching me... After we had to surrender rosie you came in and asked me if I was ok and if I needed a hug... did you see my jaw drop did you see that I was surprised that you offered a hug to me... and I really needed a hug that night... so I got up and went to you... you squeezed me for the absolute shortest period possible and let me go, turned around and changed the subject. Within minutes you were criticising me again... (too bad I found out that melissa asked you to be nice to me and to give me a hug- she asked if you were nice and if you gave me one)

Tying in to this, we hardly ever have sex and if we do I feel bad because I feel like I am pushing you into it, I have given up asking because I cant be rejected by you any more, it hurts me too much. I am sorry that my sex drive is so much higher than yours... Im trying to find ways to kill it but its not going well... the 5 months that you were home we had sex 4 times... the first 2 followed our usual routine... with you reaching over and rubbing my back and asking me to help you out and then you consenting to have sex. That means that I am stuck on top of you with you much of the time not touching me, not looking at me, not kissing me... you not even participating... I am not trying to be ofensive, but trying to make a point here... I frequently ask you if you are awake because you are not participating at all. You do the same when I am just "helping you out " too... and you have this increasing need for me to perform in way that i am uncomfortable with... and I cant and i have cried and you dont have any remorse for making me feel so miserable... it makes me not want to help you but then we both know what happens if I deny you... you have woken colt up yelling at me before and at the very least I am going to wake up to a very mean version of you that treats me even more harshly than normal. So I learned really quick that if you ask formy services that I need to do it despite my feelings and that if you try to force me to do things i dont want to do despite the way that it makes me feel that I have to try and instead of being able to enjoy some of the experience, it is all ruined for me... the 3rd time was actually a good sex experience, but still not making love. I had an orgasm with you which meant that you were actually arousing me, and it felt good, but again I was left with the distinct feeling of hey who are you and what did you do with my husband... the 4th time was horrendous... we started out in the bathroom with you needing me to get you ready... and then wound up on the bathroom floor... I have put much of the experience out of my mind because it was so painful to me, but you had me climb on top like usual, didn't touch me, or participate at all and then pushed me off took out your contacts and went to bed. I cried for a while and then realizing that you would probably be angry In the morning I went into the bedroom and gave you what you wanted, you said to me... maybe we should get a condom but I knew you didn't want to so I told you that I just wanted to make you happy and you just layed there and let me finish without even participating... I made sure I was quiet till you fell to sleep and then I got up and cried. After that I didn't want you to touch me... I didn't want to feel good feelings with you because more likely they would be bad feelings.

So sex for me is not fulfilling AT ALL and I used to think about what my sex life could have been considering I was usually very into initiating and my sex drive was high, I thought that I was going to be some awesome catch for some guy (most guys that I knew would have loved that) but no, I found a guy that really only likes parts of me :( I have found porn on the computer for years... and now it has just gotten to the point that the porn must be what you prefer, because there are many nights that you are up till 2 am looking at car stuff... and I know that you are looking at more. You know that I am uncomfortable with this. Still you have put me in my place on the topic numerous times telling me that all guys do it and to leave you alone. I just don't see what is so enchanting about looking at 2 dimensional images whether pictures or video when you have a more than willing wife in the bedroom not 20 feet away... I am rejected, offended, and hurt by the lack of sex, but even sex wouldn't be enough for me... I need the intimacy that should be present with sex, it should be making love. it should be about a spiritual/emotional connection, not just a body part connection.. another thing on the porn, Porn has been an insidious mistress for you and has undermined our intimacy. She has taken my place in your mind for years and made you not present even in the most intimate connections that we had. The acts became revolting to me as your presence and your participation deteriorated over the years and as you objectified me more and more. You pulled away from me almost right from the beginning with me begging for closeness and sex and you telling me that relationships change and if I cant understand and respect that then it is my problem and not yours. (The first time you said that was before our marriage when I inquired about your lack of affection for me. Sexual intimacy in marriage is supposed to be only between the husband and wife. Your porn although an addiction has taken a large hand in the deterioration of our marriage. God sees even looking on another woman in lust as adultery... so in gods eyes how many adulterous partners have you had?

I am not me with you... my friends see it, my family sees it... they see me as 2 different people. 2 people that cannot be reconciled in the same body. A person that is fun, dynamic, intelligent, self confident, and caring. A person that feels good about herself and has good self esteem and is happy... then there is the "me" with you... I am a shell of what I really am because you don't let me be anything else... with youI have no confidence, do not speak my mind, fear your reaction at every turn, am boring due to lack of shared interests and desires..

Another issue that it have is that you honestly and truthfully think that I am lazy, mediocre, and incapable. I do ALOT... I am overwhelmed... 2 children is a full time job let alone 12 cats, kittens, 3 pugs, puppies, 1 dog, gerbils and anything else living that I have to care for. on top of that I am trying to care for other peoples kids to make money and the reason for having these animals is to make money... which they have been doing an you know it. Above that, I need to take care of myself and if my ONLY stress releif is going to be reading a book which you criticize me for all the time than I should at least have that. I should be able to take an hour out of my day to do something that helps me to escape what is becoming a very unhappy reality for me... instead I read a book because I need an escape, feel guilty while doing it because I know you will be mad that I didn't do the other stuff, but sometimes I have to refuel my mental tanks before I can give any more. But you think I don't do anything so I guess that is not a valid point to make to you. When I tell people that I care for our 2 children plus at least 2 more, plus the 12 cats, and 4 dogs and any kittens or puppies there may be they look at me and ask me where the 2nd Amber is... I feel that you just are so inside yourself with your feelings of self righteousness that you are unable to see that when I don't do some of the household tasks that it is not about disrespecting you but about keeping myself going. I want to please you but sometimes I know that I am behind with something already and if I put the extra hour in to get something done that you will glance right past the completed thing to see what I didn't do... I am tired of NEVER being good enough and I am tired of every little thing being a good enough excuse for you to blow up at me or grumble as you walk in the door or give me aggressive looks... I am busy, I am struggling, and I am doing a lot I understand some frustration, but I don't deserve it all and all of it all the time.

You a hard worker, an effective communicator, dedicated to your dreams, and getting better with the kids. You attacks problems with gusto and aims to fix things even though you sometimes quickly lose sight of the real issues-example our marraige and selling the cars... they are material things... my issue was the money going out and that you would not permit me to sell it when I couldn't feed the kids, not the car itself. Your attempts are for the right reasons though, I do believe.

The last straw that has made me consider many things in very recent history is your anger problems. You pushed me hard with Alex present just to make a point of me not hitting you... when all I did was jokingly backhand you in the ribs for picking on Colton. You pushed me at least 5x as hard as I tapped you. The very next day you were angry with me for not picking up toys, and not doing dishes and threw all of the kids toys in a pile and began wiping up the floor on your hands and knees all the while yelling at me regarding my disrespect to you and how you don't even like to be around the home because of the stress that the kids and I cause you. Mackenzie was excited by his flurry of angry activity and was jumping around and ran into you hitting you in the face... you then push hit her too and she began crying. I told you that you needed to apologize to her to which you responded angrily that you were not going to and that no one is going to hit you, not me and not her. She still remembers this a couple of weeks later. she still says momma remember las nite when daddy hit me? I didn't like it when daddy hits me. I don't know if I can put that one behind me Matt... I am really not sure there... if you hit her in anger at me once what will stop you again... and this is not about ultimatums, this is about me telling you how I feel so that you cannot claim ignorance. To be completely honest, I almost kicked you in the head when you hit her... I saw red and HATED you at that very moment, part of me still does for doing that, i forgive a lot of things, i will not forgive that. She did not deserve it and then you wouldn't say sorry... so well let her grow up thinking that is ok so she can be BEAT by some man... um NO... and oh colt if a girl hits you who is less than half as stong as you... well daddy does it, so sure you can hit her to teach her a lesson... um NO!

Control - you demand it and when you don't get it you get aggressive (captain of the ship speech should have given me a clue) I never get a say in anything so you think that our lack of arguing was good, when it is actually a product of my not being permitted to be a whole person with opinions. If I disagreed with you, I am told with no lack of anger and spite how wrong I am and I am left feeling defeated. Corey and Janice (his brother and sister in law) are not worse than us, but healthier than us because they actually are 2 people in an argument and not 2 people with 1 always giving in, being on opposite sides of an issue doesn't mean that you don't get along, the lack of one person having a say is actually worse.

No genuine shared interests- to get you to be kind to me I would have to pay attention to your incessant ravings about cars and skiing. I could hold your interest with talk of the kids and of financial progress with the cats. You ARE not interested in anything else that I have to talk about or want to do. I like to play golf, I haven't went in years. I like to go to movies and take walks. You like to work on cars, ski, and go to the dragstrip, I watch the kids so you can do those things all the time. You dont just not do my things, but you actively criticize them. I quickly learned to not try to get you interested, you'd just tell me how much they lack in fun and try to get me to do your stuff. Marriage is supposed to be about give and take... enough said. When I realized that you were not really interested in my things I stopped talking about them... you were only around long enough typically to talk about your topics and criticize me and then you left anyways... so due to your lack of interest in me, your lack of time spent, and your lack of willingness to participate in some of my interests, I felt lonely... in fact I am lonely even with you present most of the time.

Cycle of abuse- This effectively describes our relationship and it is NO WAY for a person to live because then even the good times are overshadowed by the eventual blowup and one can never really relax and be comfortable.

Our children should be a major focus in our lives... they should help us to guide our decisions by what is best for them and what we should want for them in the long run. I need our children to grow up outside of the umbrella of a dysfunctional relationship. Our relationship will teach our daughter to marry a man that treats her badly and will teach our son to treat a woman the way that you do. Even if we do our absolute best to teach them the right way, they are sponges and will learn to emulate us and will statistically do what we do in relationships. I will not settle for that. And I will not settle for a relationship like this. It is unfair.

Amber

I am not leaving you, but I am laying this all out on the line here... when I left before I felt bad because I blindsided you and didn't give you a chance to make it better... here we are over a year later and we are financially doing a little better, but our relationship is even worse.

Ageing Grace

30th October 2009, 04:07 AM

Amber, your letter is thoughtful, well argued, balanced and clear.

I don't think you should send it.

As a tool for your own thought processes, it has a lot of value.

As an attempt to influence your husband, it's unlikely to achieve anything. It's accusatory and offers no alternative way forward. I'm sorry I'll have to keep this much shorter than you deserve - it's 3am here - but I wanted to reply quickly to you.

Please take another look at Yogamad's post above. It's about taking charge of your own life.

More later :rolleyes:

AG x

Raymond

30th October 2009, 02:30 PM

Funny I have the opposite instinct. Here is a man who doesn't appear to listen and here is a desperate wife who needs to lay it on the line.

I think you do need to send it. The very fact that you have to write it should speak to any husband that there is something desperately wrong.

I think it will make or break the marriage according to his response. If my wife sent me a letter like that I would be devastated but I would surely go through every line again and again until I had it in my soul. If he wants to mend it this is his chance.

You sound a good woman Amber and need to say these things. My wife would never hold back if there were these kinds of issues. Obviously this has been building for a long time because he is not listening. I think he needs this shock and he needs the truth. My heart sang when I read the letter. At last the issues are being aired. It might just do the trick but the porn has to go. By the way every man wants a wife with a high SD. Take away the porn and he may well have a high SD.

Your love language seems to be touch and you need the hugs and the holding hands just like my wife. I had to learn this coming from an orphan background. Now it is natural to me and I will often hug someone without thinking about it, especially my wife.

The problems in your marriage are not insurmountable but it will take his full co-operation. Control is another issue mentioned also on Confuseds thread.

Must stop here. My instinct is to send it but you have to weigh it up and decide obviously. You may need to look over it again to address AG points but I think overall it needs to be sent.

Raymond

PS show him the DVD "Fireproof"

amberheller

30th October 2009, 06:49 PM

OH my word this is harder than it seems... i wrote this long passionate, informative letter... and now it sits in my inbox as I go back and forth on sending it or not... the hard part is that if I don't send it I am pretty much guaranteed to pursue my divorce, but my husband had the same wake up call (same information) a year ago in June. So do I again put myself out there and give him another shot? If I send this then I also have to be completely prepared to put 110% in and work on the marriage.

I spoke the truth when I said I don't know if I can forgive him for hitting our daughter and while I am hurt by the issues that are directed at me in the letter, I can choose to forgive those myself... with gods help if I choose. However I will not forgive him for hitting her... I was hit as a child... alot... My sister and I were messed up by it because there was also a devastating mental abuse with it. MY CHILDREN will not live with that... and it is not MY place to forgive him for that... it is MY place to PROTECT my children from that. I have spanked my daughter... some may critique me for it, but the difference is that I am doing it as a behavioral consequence, not in anger. He hit her in anger actually displaced anger because he was mad at me.

I am afraid that we go through all of this and he makes attempts and another year + goes by and then I get to this point again and then have to leave... and then my little girl is 4 and my son 2 and they will understand more...

I was dumbfounded when AG said that I shouldn't send it... but it made me think... I have put this letter out to some close friends to give me their opinions and all have said that it was clear communication... my concern was that it was accusatory and that it is better to speak in terms of "I" but my anger and current situation makes me incapable of rewording things to fit into that mold. And I think I want him to know that I am MAD.

I almost feel like telling him that hey you know what... this is what is wrong in our relationship buddy go ahead and look at it and don't make these mistakes in your next relationship... :( Then I think that god would never be that heartless and I feel guilty... so I go back to pondering...

How long will it take before I just get up the determination to delete the thing, and move on with my live, OR hit the send button and have the perseverance and strength and desire to work on my marriage?

AG Id love to hear more from you regarding this I was taken aback by your statement that it leaves no alternative way forward... wouldn't that way forward be for him to decide, or at least open up to the discussion, this was about airing myself and the damaged marriage to him as he sees everything as "fine and that we are doing great" (he used those words to a friend just 4 days ago)... I think that he will be shocked by this, angered by it, and if I were to theorize about the outcome it would center on his reaction when I served him with the divorce papers... he will go crazy trying to figure everything out and understand it, and pick systematically things to work on and be humble and kind... and then it will slowly go to hell again... but that is me just relying on the past to make judgement... not the most fair thing for me to do, but what else do I have to go on??

Raymond I honestly never thought about my "love language" but I think you are right... I am a very touch oriented person and communicate that way too... that helps me to know myself a little better thank you. When you wrote that your heart sang when you read the letter I was affirmed in my thoughts because I really poured myself into it... and my husband says I cant communicate HA! I dont think the porn will ever totally go... he has too many young 20's friends that he goes on porn sprees with (they make a run to place and pick up porn-I havent found any, but I am sure he has viewed much of it with them)... I just found out about the "shopping trips" ... additionally, it is hearsay, but he has also went to strip clubs with these guys as well... and the reports include him having "lap dances" and being in private quarters with the dancer...:eek: and that was without my knowledge for sure! I don't think that he had sex with her (if it even happened) but I am not so naive to think that he wouldn't have paid for some services if you get what I mean... (mind you the last know visit to the strip club was over a year and a half ago, gosh maybe closing in on 2 years... but that is last known visit so how can I be sure... sorry bout the tangent.

anyone else have advice I am open and receptive to it right now!

I feel like I have bonded with a few members of this forum and I appreciate you all!

Amber

Jazz204

30th October 2009, 10:05 PM

Amber, life is not meant to be as yours is. Life is for enjoying, laughing, loving. I am all for marriage, all for raising kids within a marriage but when you are with someone such as your spouse, it becomes impossible. You and your children are ENTITLED to respect and feeling safe. Dont get bogged down by all the 'things', stick to the one thing. Your and your children being entitled to a good happy life and take positive steps towards that, knowing you are in the right. Look at life as being in small chunks, always with the idea of creating a good life. Dont feel guilty about all the domestication and controlling ways of society, its your life, it will be over soon enough, you dont need to waste it on a bullying nasty screwed up man who is wrecking your childrens futures. Its all very well to say stay, work at it and all that stuff, but in your case I think being separate would be best for all of you. Sometimes this is the case. Further down the track, who knows but at this moment, there are so many issues confronting you, its best for you to remove yourself and your children from the contamination.
Jazz

Ageing Grace

30th October 2009, 11:44 PM

Oh dear, Amber, I really should not have replied as I did. I'm very glad your letter has stimulated further thoughts on your part, and superb replies from Raymond and Jazz.

For goodness sake, don't delete it! Your soul's in that letter. Even if you don't send it, you may want to read it later.

The big question I wanted to ask, after I read it the first time, is: What does she want? Your letter reads like "Goodbye" but you say "I'm not leaving you". I understand your need to be heard - and, if that is your sole purpose in writing to him, then I'd say so at the beginning and end of your letter.

You don't need to say you're not leaving, IMO: it sounds like you know he'll think that - well, anybody would after reading that letter! But, essentially, it sounds like "I know what you're thinking and you're wrong." Pointless. (In my opinion.)

I don't know whether you want to change your marriage (or give it another shot, at least) or to quit it. After reading your letter, I'm none the wiser.

I write stuff for a living. The one question you must never fail to answer in your writing is: "What's my overall message?" You've said a warehouse full of stuff - and said it very well - but ... what is your overall message? It may be better to state it.

Amber, my personal opinion is that you WOULD be better off out of this marriage. Your husband's behaviour is despicable. You've done plenty to try & change it, yet here you are again; still. Life is short. Your daughter's growing up with your marriage as a model - you & I both know what that kind of model does to a person's relationship potential!

Jellybean wrote, in another thread, she feels she "wasted" 8 years trying to save her marriage - as she remarks, she has the moral advantage but passed 8 years of her childrens' lives, which could have been so much more positive.

However. Marriages have their own quirks; nobody ever knows precisely how a relationship feels to the people in it. I felt Yoga would be better off out of hers - but the truth is, a spouse can be better off all by herself, within or without her marriage.

You do not need your husband's permission, nor even his approval, to become a braver, better, happier & more fulfilled Amber. Moreover, if you just get on with living YOUR life the way YOU believe is best ... he will change. I suggested that Yoga think of it as a game (it is a game; you know that, you're a psychologist!) If one player changes the rules / their mode / their role ... the game must change. That's guaranteed; what is less certain is the way in which it will change.

I think you have a lot of work to do on Amber and I congratulate you on recognising this - I had to have 2 breakdowns before I started listening to my self! Whether you choose to continue your Amber work inside or outside your marriage is up to you. I think it's time you took another small step forward in your work. Make some choices without reference to him, not even to anticipate how he'll react. His reactions are his choice; your actions are yours.

I'm verging on rant mode! Sorry.

Vis-a-vis your letter: Please could you try it without the last paragraph? Please could you try stating [a] what you want him to take from it, and [b] what result you require from it?

I hope this made at least a bit of sense :o

AG xxx

Raymond

31st October 2009, 01:26 PM

I think AG is right. Removing the last paragraph about not leaving would be good. It takes away from the desperation in the letter which he needs to know.

I see the letter as a desperate attempt to save the marriage. If it is not that and you just want to go why bother to send it?

I think you have a lot of good stuff in there. Reading between the lines there is only one message. He needs to listen to his suffering wife and take note of a few things, step up and be a husband. It is a cry for help rather that a husband bashing excercise.

I think it is inspired Amber and needs to be sent to him. No letter is going to be perfect but the gist of it is obvious. True things will never be the same again but things need to move on. If that doesn't hit him what else will? I say hit him in a nice way in the sense that he needs to be hit with it. The letter says it loud and clear and is the truth. I pray that God speak to him through it.

Raymond

jellybean28

31st October 2009, 02:40 PM

Hi Amber

After reading your posts, I can relate to where you are coming from having been there.

My Ex was very difficult to talk to and I always felt any issues I had were up to me to deal with as he didn't want to know.

To be honest I got to the point where I didn't know what I wanted, but I wasn't happy with the way things were.

I would write a letter to your husband, as that way you can say what you want to and not get into an argument and forget what it is you wanted to tell him.

However I would tell him what it is you want from your marriage and if he is not prepared to give you that, then you will have to consider whether to stay or leave him. On the issue of him hitting your daughter in anger I would forgive him this once and this once only this way you can move on and not let your anger fester it will eat into your relationship. Having said this I would make it very clear to him that if he ever lays a finger on you or you children again in anger you will not give him a second chance.

What I'm trying to say here is write you letter telling him what you want and what you will not put up with in your marriage, without saying you never, you did etc instead say, this is what I would like and this is what I will not put up with. I would also tell him you still love him if you do.

You are in a difficult position, but whatever happens you will get through it. If your marriage isn't working and you are really unhappy and your husband and you for that matter aren't prepared to put in 110% then staying together for the sake of the children, will only lead to greater hurt and sorry. By all means give things a time frame say of 1yr to change.
Keep posting here, there's some good people with great advice and support.

Take care amber ;)

jellybean28

31st October 2009, 02:52 PM

One more thing to borrow this sentence from Grace

You do not need your husband's permission, nor even his approval, to become a braver, better, happier & more fulfilled Amber. Moreover, if you just get on with living YOUR life the way YOU believe is best ... he will change. I suggested that Yoga think of it as a game (it is a game; you know that, you're a psychologist!) If one player changes the rules / their mode / their role ... the game must change. That's guaranteed; what is less certain is the way in which it will change.

My husband was a control freak and I did the above almost destroyed me. Now I do not seek approval or permsssion from anyone but myself to live my life. I have spent most of my life seeking approval from other people first my mother then my Husband. Funny things is now I have changed I finally am getting the love and respect from my mother I have yearned for. :)

amberheller

3rd November 2009, 06:12 AM

So I am going to try to decrease my burden on this forum over the following days, and try to give more back... but I do need a bit more guidance. I have found that most of my information is in this thread so I feel this is the best place to put my current mindset for review... I know that I am again off topic and I am sorry. Here is my issue... I was chatting with a friend today and he asked me a question that I hadn't allowed myself to answer before. The question was, what do you want to do? I replied, I want to not be married anymore. I want to not hurt anymore. So he caught me offgaurd and I wasn't worried about what people would say or if it was what god expects of me, it was my gut reaction... I didn't even realize that I wrote it until I saw it on the screen.

Now I realize that when all the other factors come into play that I am still not fully decided but after that I also started to realize that there are things that have happened that I am not comfortable forgiving. As part of my furthering my understanding of myself I need to write them down. These unforgiveable things are hitting our daughter, hitting me(he has not made a habit of this, but even once is enough), stealing my car when I was 6 months pregnant with our son because he was angry and jealous that I went to a dinner function with a man that was both of our friends... he encouraged me to go and then stole the car to punish me... telling me that I would never do that again. I think there are about 2 more but my brain is giving out :)

I am very pensive tonight and think that I do need to send my letter to him however with a few changes... AG you will be happy that I am going to delete the last paragraph... and add in a section or two telling him what I want... however I think it will be a bit nicer version of my angry rant in my earlier post where I want to tell him to use this to make himself better for someone else in the future. Right now, I do not want to do this any more. Still I find that I cannot bring myself to mess up his chances with his current work position becasue I know that he loves what he is doing and so cannot send this to him until he is very close to coming home. so I have until the beginning of december to change my mind I guess :(

The other issue that I am faced with is one of financial turmoil... all of my income is tied to this house that we own... I run a daycare here and I raise my ragdoll cats and my pugs here... my daycare is liscensed and while my name is on the liscense and I have been checked out it is for this location, and it is HARD to move a daycare also I would not be able to find some place to live that I would be able to take my supplementary income (my animals). So I am finding myself wanting to suggest a financial arrangement with my H where we could continue to cohabitate with the understanding of my continued financial support of him contingent upon him cooperating with the divorce and not pressuring me to get back together(he cant afford this place on his own any more than I can). I see negatives to this all over the place. I stand by the fact that my H is not a bad person just a really bad husband to me. I think that we could make an arrangement like this work... maybe. I also think that it would benefit the kids to have us work out how to interact as separate parents quickly... rather than take the years that it takes some divorced couples to work it out. Our property has a separate concrete slab with a well, septic, and electric on it. it is possible for us to put another lodging down there and have him live there eventually, but not at this point with our winter coming fast and him in another state... and obviously not agreeable to this plan yet. So we would likely work out separate living quarters for him in the basement for now... that is if he agreed...

When I had him served with papers over a year ago he told me that he would NEVER give me a divorce no matter how hard I pushed him with a lawyer... that he didn't beleive in it... he agreed to at least joint ownership of our problems and had MAJOR plans to work them out. Since that time our lives have progressed to what you have read above including at least weekly reminders regarding how WRONG I was to file for divorce and how horrible my parents were for supporting me. He batters me with my cry for change before. He actually requires me to agree with him and although I find little loopholes to avoid saying that I was wrong, the effect if always the same, he feels vindicated and feels that I am in my place and that I agree with him that I was wrong for filing for divorce and that I overreact all the time and his famous saying is Amber you are just like all women... you blame everything on your husband. and that if I am not happy then there is something wrong with me and that I should go to the doctor for some anti depressants. and that he cant make me happy and that I need to work on that by myself... the man is not dumb by any stretch of the imagination and can actually have me manipulated into beleiveing all this crap quite easily. (I did go to the doc looking for a magic pill- guess what... he wont prescribe me any because he does not feel that I am depressed, but rather in a very hard situation-told H this... he didn't like it very much, and told me to go see another doctor and he would go with me and explain things- well let me tell you if he went the doctor would see me depressed :) )

So not quite at square one here, but still looking for advice... this time more on my proposition to him for surviving our financial dependancy... I dont intend to suggest living together forever but maybe till the spring when we can work some kind of residence onto our existing property... any help here would be great...

I feel that I am wronging him by taking this theoretical step, but right now I am tired physically and emotionally and I need to start taking care of me. that is my H's other famous saying you know Amber when it comes down to it the only person that you can count on to take care of you is yourself... boy well that isn't what I went into marriage thinking... how bout you all? Still to take care of myself requires me to cleanse myself of his weight because I tried with the divorce papers to get him to change into what I needed and it didn't happen... he had his warning. I don't feel very tempted to give another one right now.

My mother called me yesterday and started out with
Amber, I now that this isn't really my place (you know when they do that your in trouble!) but continued on to lay out that she isnt comfortable with how my H is away for 4 months of the year by choice and that the kids deserve more and I deserve more and that he hasn't changed much and the most telling one was when she said Amber it hurts me to see that you are so much happier and less stressed when he is gone. My mom has only seen me 3 times since he has been gone and she sees the difference. I am truely a different person without him and I like who i am without him and I feel better raising my children as the kind of woman that I am without him... nuff said, your turn!

I write marathon messages because my brain does this to me all day long with no outlet. I am sorry and I thank you so much!

Amber

jellybean28

3rd November 2009, 11:30 AM

Amber after reading your last post I would be inclined to leave your husband. He seems to be very controlling, and if your not careful he will end up stripping you of your self esteem.

Is there someone you can talk to help you see what your options are?
Living together on the same block seems like a bad idea to me.
For you own sake Amber take care of yourself so can take care of your children, if your family are supportive turn to them for support.

Also with the family day care, I'm sure you would be able to start one up else where, with all the two/single parent working familes there are.

Take care my friend :) oh and don't worry about long posts, sometimes mine get long once I start stuff just keeps pouring out.

Raymond

3rd November 2009, 02:26 PM

From the letter you wrote Amber I originally thought you wrote it to try and sort the marriage and was hopeful it could be saved. There are a lot of things wrong as you say. Quite a number of issues in fact.

To concentrate on one. Hitting one of the children out of anger towards you. That is quite terrible but has he not said he was sorry or anything?

Your husband does seem very selfish but has a few good points as well, as you have admitted. I think the sex thing is all because of the porn. As I said before I have seen the same pattern on here many times. That is quite a big one in my book.

You seem to have decided already to leave and you have to do what you think is right. It is sad. Personally I would have liked to see how he would have responded to the letter, but once you decide to end it it becomes irrelevant in a way.

Raymond

Ageing Grace

3rd November 2009, 04:24 PM

I'm generally in favour of trying to repair a marriage. But your posts depict a man with deep-seated issues of control and entitlement - which I don't believe will be fixed any time soon (or ever!). Stating the obvious, he doesn't see anything wrong with the way he is so there's no further point in trying to encourage him to change.

Amber, you took the biggest step you could towards prompting his desire to change when you served your divorce. Instead of forcing him to recognise his faults - and to work harder at keeping you happy - he has simply used your statements as evidence of your wrongness (in his eyes) ... and has punished you for it.

He cares nothing for your happiness, only for his own power over you.

Reading your last post above, I found myself muttering "he's insane!" Honestly, the story about your dinner date and the car makes absolutely no sense - except to a crazy person. He's got issues all right, and you've already done everything you can to get him to see that. He doesn't.

Further: Hitting you and your child - even just the once - is unacceptable. Nobody lashes out only once. Choose to stay, and I believe you will be choosing to live with escalating violence.

The long-term effect on your children hardly bears thinking about. What they have learned about adult relationships, so far, is: [1] Marriage is about control & resistance; [2] A husband should hit, punish, abandon and steal from his wife; [3] Married people are happiest when apart.

Lovely. Are you sure you want this for them? :confused:

In your case, Amber, I'm delighted that you found yourself saying you wanted out. You should listen to your self more! Doubtless, this will be easier when your mind's not constantly overwhelmed by trying to anticipate your husband's next attack.

I understand your thoughts around setting up shared lodgings in your home. However, I think he will continue to control you from there. You're susceptible to his manipulations; why on earth would he give it up just because you have separate bedrooms?

It looks like a very good idea to talk with your mother in detail. Ask her to help you write a summary of the faults in your marriage (print out this thread for her, too). Then ask her to help you find trustworthy legal advice. It may be possible for you to keep your home & business - without having to share it with your oppressor.

I know you're not ready to hear this, Amber. You're an amazingly tolerant individual, with extraordinary good will :) So I'll simply ask you to turn your talent for helping on yourself for a while!

And please, please talk to your mum.

Much love,
AG

amberheller

3rd November 2009, 08:52 PM

Hmmmm, Raymond... I want to see if the letter can get him to change too... I really really want that. but he already effectively had the letter, so I guess whats the use anyways. Ut would just be harder on me... I will feel guilty without giving him another chance, but I can handle guilt I cant handle doing this for years to come. Tons of people tell me, Amber you cant force someone to change and I know that. Still I hoped that my H would have seen the error in his ways and make some progress. I tell you if we had been making consistent progress (even a tiny bit) I would have not been considering leaving. He will think that I am overreacting and that I am wrong. He will not even consider that I am doing this out of desperation for the survival of myself as a person and for the development of our children. And to answer your question, no he did not apologize for hitting our daughter and in fact he told me, "NO, I will not apologize and that neither her or you will hit me..." he was staring at me very tensly and those were his words and then he got up and left.

AG... your statement is very effective for me.

The long-term effect on your children hardly bears thinking about. What they have learned about adult relationships, so far, is: [1] Marriage is about control & resistance; [2] A husband should hit, punish, abandon and steal from his wife; [3] Married people are happiest when apart.

However I need to also consider my own understanding of adult relationships here too and apply the statement! I have had a very bad example of what marriage is... I won't make the same mistakes twice! I learn from my errors.

I never pulled the Divorce decree out of the courts... it would have hurt my chances at getting one if I pulled it back... so I just let it hang... my lawyer still has my parents money (his retainer) that he would refund but my parents asked me to just leave it there... so I don't have to have him served again I don't beleive although I don't know the timeframes on all these things.

I am trying to let the little things in life help to bring me back up. I feel truely blessed that I have a twisted coping mechanism that has allowed me to be 2 different people because I think my recovery from my H will not be as long as for some although the issues in the marriage are far reaching and encompass most of my life I have kept part of me out of it and so I will just work to further wither the diseased part with him and bloom the part that I am happy with. I plan to post in the thread on here about what we are blesses to have... because noting those things daily will help I am sure!

I do think that I could be his friend... but as a friend I wont tolerate his control... in fact if we were to live together for a short time I don't beleive he could win over me once I know that I am not going to have to pay for my behavior later... because he wont have that kind of hold on me... I think when it comes down to it, I am growing past the point of needing him and I will be able to interact with him on the basis of want instead of responsibility or respect or fear. I can see us being much greater friends divorced than ever as a married couple because when you are married you are forced to spend time together, and when you are not, it is by choice.

Jellybean, I find that my self esteem surrounding him is non existant...I seem to be a shell of what I really am with him, but there is still hope for me because I don't stay trampled down for long... I start revolting against his control and putdowns and rejections in my mind... pretty soon I have a good boiling anger going and my self esteem starts to build back up through friends affirmations of my abilities and individualism. If someone could hear me in my own head it is really kinda funny... He puts me down telling me that I am lazy and mediocre and blah blah blah and sometimes I just sub in the blah blah blah but sometimes I start telling him off in my head usually surrounding the fact that he has NO CLUE what I do daily and that Id like to see him try to do it and that if he were here more, like actually present and not living in parallel to us that he would understand.

I again have thrived on my anger and sense of self preservation, and through friendly guidance and prayer am starting to feel peaceful. I still go back and forth a bunch but I am starting to feel a bit entitled myself :) Entitled to something more than what I have something more close to what I dream about and much closer to what god has planned for me...

good day, Amber

Raymond

4th November 2009, 09:57 AM

Thank you for your response Amber. My view is as you have written the letter already isn't it worth having one last go and sending it to him? If no repentance comes forth again then your assurance would be even greater to have the divorce. You may be right. He might not respond at all and then again he might. Who knows?

I am certainly not commending that you battle on in your marriage forever. I just feel your letter is particularly inpired and as I said before will make or break your marriage such is the power I feel that is in it.

Obviously you are praying about the situation and you will have your leadings from God which are more important than what I am saying and yet God can use others as well.

Raymond

amberheller

4th November 2009, 11:54 PM

So further clarity is being revealed to me, the more time I give god to bring it to me. Thanks for that! and my current gut feeling is that I DO need to give him the letter. However it is going to be on my terms. my plan is to wait until he is home, and sit him down and give him the letter. and explain to him that this letter is one of 2 things. and that the choice is mine not his. The letter is either a plea for change in which I have laid out my needs and minimun requirements for our marriage or it is an excersize for me in healing that will also help him to improve on himself for future relationships. I am going to explain to him that it has gotten to the point of dispair and resentment for me and that I don't think I love him anymore. I will also be pointing out that me serving him divorce papers should have been notice enough of the issues at hand and that if that didn't serve to produce the desired effect, than I don't have much confidence that anything will.

I feel stronger, happier, more confident, more pleasant, more whole with him away. I dread December 4th. He wants to come home and says that he misses me and the kids. I struggle to even end a phone conversation saying that I miss him and love him... I end my emials to him with Luv you, because LOVE you is too much. I don't think he makes the distinction but I do.

So his reaction will dictate my action... if he tries to turn it around and make these problems my fault like usual and downplays everything telling me that I need to get on an antidepressant then I will leave him... and know that I have done my best. If he can show me change, genuine change than I will try to be willing to work... but I still cant make promises there... I have had a lot of hurt, rejection, and heartache and I don't know if I can get past it... time will tell that one. but I cant go on like this for me and for my kids. so either major changes, or I guess I will become one of the marriage/divorce statistics. Oh well.

Amber

jellybean28

5th November 2009, 02:07 PM

HI Amber

Your seem to be a good devoted wife and mother. You are still carrying a lot of hurt which is understandable, stand by what you have written and don't let your husband make you back down. You are a strong women who deserves to be loved and treated with respect.

One which helped me to heal was to write all of my feelings in a journal, sometimes I would write pages, sometimes once a day or week, sometimes twice it doesn't matter how often or what you write hold nothing back.
Keep it where it can't be read by others, or when you've finished writing destroy it.

Also nothing lifts my heart more than finding gratitude everyday, sharing it is even better, for someone elses heart is lifted also.Oh and take care of yourself, by doing things that make you happy :p

Keep up us updated Amber
Hugs Gillian

Raymond

5th November 2009, 02:32 PM

I don't know how you put it in the past Amber but the letter you have written is so clear. My thought is for him to read the letter not as an ultimatum, (you don't want false responses here or mixed motives), but as a communication and plea for help. If it falls on deaf ears you know what you have to do. Personally I think porn can be grounds for divorce on it's own because it is sexual unfaithfulness.

Your letter is quite a mixed bag of things and assuming that he did want to respond what would be the order of priority for you? I think it would be a good excercise for you to list the things you mentioned in order of their priority to you. I mean what would he start on first?

I understand your tentativeness here because of the past. You don't want promises if the changes are not from the heart. That would be a cop out. You will know if is from his heart soon enough. If it turns out to be so then he will need a little time to work it through, but you will have the signs that he is trying.

People can change Amber. I have changed a lot in marriage and I have learned that my wife is my number one priority in life, next to God of course, but he's the one who counsels us to love our wives. You are stepping out a lot in giving him another chance Amber even though you feel you want to leave now. I will be praying for you. Things should never be this way. All wives are entitled to love and understanding and that is what us men should be working towards. Lets hope and pray something happens here.

Raymond

Ageing Grace

6th November 2009, 01:00 AM

All wives are entitled to love and understanding and that is what us men should be working towards. Lets hope and pray

Amen to that :)

xx

amberheller

9th November 2009, 03:47 AM

Hi all! its been a few days and I am so far standing gehind my plan so that is good usually I go back and forth 20 times a day it seems... My husband is picking up the audio books soon (the focus on the family speakers... I cant remember their names right now) he seems excited about that... but I think he is looking from an improve our already decent marriage standpoint where I am at the bottom end :) Im at the point where your not so worried about improving what you have because there is not really much at all good to build on :( I am at the get out the heavy equipment and tear it all down and lay new groundwork then build up... or maybe more likely tear it all down and make a memorial on the site for the survivors... but not use the same ground again... (sorry im a sucker for metaphors-always have been!!)

So I spent hours in the past two days talking with an old friend... and remembered a TON of additional negative things that have happened... (I am the kind that forgives pretty freely and to do that you have to forget many things, put them behind you and move on... but discussing my history with this friend took me chronologically through my life since highschool and I was in shock at some of the things that came to the surface regarding my husband... I came to realize just how controling and mean and selfish he has been with me. so that reinforces my current mindset. I am sure that I will NEED more support from you all and I apologize ahead of time if I go back and forth... I think most of you all understand though... some of the hardest decisions are not ones that are made quickly... and sometimes it is hard to step onto one side of the line and stay there.

I just wanted to say hi and tell you guys where Im at so thanks for reading... and I find that I am enjoying my time without my husband... and feel a bit guilty because he wants to call me and talk and I don't have much patience for it... however he just wants to talk mundane things, or about his stuff... not really about anything that I would like to talk about... so I guess same old!

Alright, night everyone, Amber

Raymond

10th November 2009, 02:15 PM

Theres a big contradiction going on here Amber. It is quite unbelievable really that he is reading books about improving his already good marriage when the reality is that it is at rock bottom. I hope it tells him to listen to his wife. I think it is a good time for him to get the letter. A I said before it is not a negative but a cry for help. He must be going around with blinkers on. It is a good thing that he is reading though. We can thank God for that and hope his eyes will open a little. Your letter is very important here.

The main counseling for any christian husband is to love their wives as christ loves the church and live with them with understanding. That entails all sorts of things.

I hope one day he will say what an idiot I have been and how blind I was. You should be the most important person in his life. Pray that God uses this book but I am convinced he needs the letter also.

Raymond

amberheller

14th November 2009, 05:18 AM

So I really hate my husband right now... and I need to tell someone and it is past 11 pm here and I don't have anyone so I am going to write it...

So we went to the library like usual for friday nights for us (that is me and the 2 kids, 3yrs and 18 months)... and played... it was fun everyone was fine... got home around 830... set kenzie up to watch a movie while I got laundry started... little one didnt cooperate so didn't get much done... by 930 3yr old is saying shes cold, whiney and RED... with a 103.2 oral temp... its official... the flu has hit my home... (now is it seasonal or H1N1??)

I have no help here, and the best my H can do is criticise me for not replying to his damn email regarding me adjusting my ending conversations to him in a more cordial and wifely manner... while I am holding a HOT child who is groaning... what a *****... and he wanted me to take her to the ER... and reminds me like 8 times to get up and check on her at night so her fever doesnt spike... DUH ass*&^$. Then I express that I have never had the flu so maybe I will get lucky and not get it... he tells me that she is the only one with it now so lets just worry about her... well crap buddy its a wicked virus meant to spread- it is what it is designed to do and if I get it, and have no help to care for the kids who have it, cuz noone wants to get it, then im in a bad spot arent I... How can I care for two kids if I feel like I am dying... hmmmm well, I will do it cuz I have to somehow and because I am a mom... but god why cant he just "get it" ?

Then while she is passed out on my lap burning a whole in my side, he has to tell me about his day which was super fun got to train with some of the US ski team and was skiing on level with them... and then got asked to teach an expert lesson while his supervisior opted for a 6 yr old... so he felt proud. I mean Yay you, but let me lay the poor kid down first... and then tell me about your day... and then told me about driving home in the snow and looking at a bunch of cars parked looking at something to realize that their are skid marks going off the ledge on the pass between A basin and Dillon... not at one of the thousand foot drop sections, but he guessed at least 100 ft down... if the person didn't die, they will have psychological issues for the rest of their life... I am sure... im prayior survival and amnesia...

So big exciting, stimulating day for him... while I am here with all the responsibilities and he is bothered that I don't lay on the closing niceties with him on the phone and on email (like I dont usually say that I love him and miss him)... well I don't feel nice to him so im not fake... and I dont love him either... I cant lie... I sure as hell don't miss him... not lying bout that either.

AHHHHHHHH I just want to scream... but id wake up the sick kid :(http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/images/blank.gif

I hate him right now. I just do. And considering I am feeling a bit chilly and have a cough and a tickly throat and MASSIVE headache I cant imagine me gettin through this healthy... so I will get the flu, somehow tough it out, care for 2 young children with the flu and myself and all of my animals and the house... YAY me world... it could always be worse but this is definately no fun.

so sorry for using this thread as a dumping place, but I think I ruined the original purpose of the thread anyhow... :(

Amber

Ageing Grace

14th November 2009, 03:53 PM

Chicken soup. Aspirin. Heating up high. Drink water. Instruct husband to make "poor baby" noises :mad:

Get well soon!

AG xxxxx

amberheller

16th November 2009, 01:53 AM

So I am sitting here having issues with anxiety regarding my husband coming home in the beginning of December. I have made my plan with my letter and will follow through. I have 2 problems.

My first concern comes in when I tell him that we are done if he reacts as I feel that he will. I think that he will then try to make things better and I know that I am suceptable to his manipulations and control. So I am considering writing him a 2nd letter telling him that we are through and laying out some ground rules and consequences for him... this would be prepared ahead of time in preparation of his likely reaction and due to my fears of agreeing to work on things again and doing this all over in another year and a half.

My second concern and perhaps my bigger issue is what if he surprises me and pledges to work again on the marriage... I cant even say the I love you but im not in love with you line... I just do not love him, do not want to be married anymore to someone that has their priorities so messed up and treats me so badly, and I dont think that he can honestly change in all the ways that I need him to in order for me to be satisfied in the marriage, I am sick and tired of settling. Raymond I know that you have changed and made it work with your wife, my sincerest pat on the back to you and I guess if he put it all in gods hands he could make those changes but I think he is so caught up in himself that he wouldn't make honest attempts. As evidenced by the video that I made for him stating all these same problems, when my daughter was very little over 2 years ago, the divorce proceedings in which he was provided the same information almost a year and a half ago, and the many other times I have communicated to him, and finally this letter plan. I think if he gets scared by my wording and reads between the lines and sees "I am leaving you" like I think AG pointed out it seems to say, he will tell me he is going to try. I DO NOT BELEIVE HIM. So after that long paragraph. My real second issue is if he does genuinely want to work and is not filling my head with dreams how do I get myself to not be repulsed by his mere presence? How do I get myself to want to be his wife? Right now as I said I do not love him... he wrote me the email mentioned in the last post I wrote and I should have just blurted that I wasnt going to tell him goodbye sweetie I love you and miss you, because he is A. not missed, B. not loved by me, and C not my sweetie... so I say goodbye. well he was perceptive enough to be bothered by this... and I think he can sense that I am growing as a person and dont need him as much. I think I am scaring him and so he felt the need to make comments to try to reign me in. I think I have outgrown my husband with arrested development and need more in life... even if that life leads me to be alone I beleive I'd be better off.

Wow I did it again...long post! 2 problems... that I need to plan solutions to before I give him my letter. Writing the issues out seem to help me... and the responses are welcome input into my decision making process... thank you, again, Amber

Raymond

16th November 2009, 11:41 AM

It sounds to me that you have no faith in him, that it is going to fail and are planning your way out. As I said before why are you even writing the letter as brilliant as that is?

It will not be another chance he is getting as you are setting things up for him to fail and have already planned your escape.

You seem afraid to hope and won't believe he can change. You may be right, but why is he reading books on how to improve his marriage. He may be doing all the wrong things but isn't there something there that might work against all odds?

As I said before I think it is worth one more chance but if you are not open to that it will not really be a chance. I know you have been through a lot and are at the end of yourself. You came on here about problems in your marriage but sound now as if you want it to be over.

It has to be your choice Amber. My own view is that it is a brilliant letter but things seem to have detiorated in your mind since you wrote that letter and now you don't even want to give him the chance to respond.

Maybe it is that your childrens and your sickness is affecting you right now. I will pray you do the right thing. We cannot even get through life without hope and we will certainly not enjoy a marriage without it. Do what you need to do. I pray that it will be the right thing.

Raymond

jellybean28

16th November 2009, 02:04 PM

Amber you seem really angry and confused right now. I understand you have unwell children and aren't well yourself. What is that you really want Amber. Do you want to separate from your husband? Or are you trying to scare him into changing his ways? :confused:

If you no longer you feel you love him then you need to be honest and tell him. Maybe some time talking with your minister or a counciller would help.
You seem to be so angry, which given your posts is understandable, but your anger may be clouding your judgement. Also if you've been through all this before, applying for divorce, why are you putting youself and your children through this emotional rollar coaster ride again?

When your husband gets back would it be possible for him to stay elsewhere, for a while so you and he can talk things through instead of being under the same roof all of the time, that way you can work out your feelings without worrying about him manipulating you.

A good book to read is "to good to leave, to bad to stay" I can't remeber who the authour is but it's well worth reading.

Take care amber, hope you and your children are feeling better

amberheller

14th January 2010, 10:03 PM

Hi everyone. I have been long absent. I am very sorry, it was not due to lack of care, respect, or gratitude... I felt I had a good handle on my plan and didn't want to repeat myself all the time. Then my H came home and that was FUN. So here I sit a little after a month has gone by since he returned, and ill give you all an update... advice like usual is valued like gold.

Matt has not recieved the letter yet but will. I wanted to wait out the holidays so that the kids could enjoy him and he them. He came back very intent on playing with them, and does every day... for like 5 minutes and then he is done. He yelled and bullied me into moving our son into our daughters room so that we could have more time together. (my internal monologue was like whoooo hoooo oh yeah that is awesome wonderful yay) but I was worried about my kids so I was resistant. Finally about a week ago I did move him over it has been frought with difficulty but im not giving up... our sex life is worse than ever. He has gotten me to "take care of him" orally... 2x and has gotten me excited by being suggestive and then just made me finish with him without even touching me a 3rd time. No sex... certainly no making love. I tried getting him to go to bed with me quite suggestively with no clothes on... he didn't even notice cuz he had taken the comforter off our bed and was sleeping on the sofa with the 90 pound dog cuddling her. He was all tucked in and hugging her with the blankets over his face. I asked him are you going to bed now? He said ill be in, in a little while. I went into the bedroom grabbed some clothes and promptly brokedown and cried :( then got angry and grabbed a book and read till I was lost in the story enough to sleep and then cried myself out when I tried to vent the story to a friend the next day... guess repressing the emotion was not the best choice :(

When he came home december 4th for about a week things were nice. We had boring sex one time, good sex a second where I was like who are you and where is my husband, and a 3rd time that I was left crying and then had to go finish him :( He was not violent just not interested and then he got up and left me. There was one other time since that first week... but it wasn't a good experience. Of course there have been a great deal of services performed by me but nothing on the return... in fact one evening I was angry with him and he wanted what he usually wants so I was not interested and made a snide comment about not being let out of the covers until I performed for him... He FREAKED out. yelling at me calling me NASTY names swearing at me and being very critical of me and my family. Our son was still in the room at that point. I tried to let him go to sleep but every few minutes he would freak out again and I realized that until I took care of his needs that he would not stop. So I did what was required of me so that our son could sleep and so that I could get some sleep and avoid him being mean the next day.

Right now it has been about 4 weeks or more since I have had sex. I have found loads of porn on my computer. I have a HIGH sex drive and feel that I am going crazy. It is taking every ounce of strenth that I have to not seek out another source.

My H talks about improving our relationship and wants to do a audio book study something like men are like waffles women like spaghetti or something. I think the lesson he needs is the > your wife is a human, your companion, your partner (in life and sex)/ not your battering object, your subordinant, and your (oral) sex slave while you enjoy viewing your "girls" on the computer lesson.

My family is getting pushy and know that I am unhappy and want me to leave. I need to do the letter though. Well hows that for an update??? Again, sorry it has taken so long, I will do my very best to check this daily. thank you so much everyone, much love, Amber

Raymond

15th January 2010, 02:04 PM

Hi Amber. I don't think the sex will ever be right while he is doing porn. He will be partially satisfied through doing that which creates a rift in your marriage. Until it is you and only you without the distraction of porn how can the bedroom be worked out?

I am amazed that he is reading marriage books and doesn't know that. I'll be glad when he gets that letter. He needs to know the truth. Can't believe he wants to write a book on men and women when he doesn't bother to know his own woman in a full way. Porn figures in over 50% of divorces in the States. His response to the letter is crucial. I know of a christian couple where they haven't slept together for ten years. After he started porn the sex diminished more and more and if there was any it was done in a selfish way, more like repeating what he had watched. She has considered divorce but seems routed to the spot trying to do the right thing. Time will tell.

I really hope your situation can be sorted Amber.

Raymond

amberheller

15th January 2010, 02:53 PM

Sorry maybe i wrote that wrong... the "book" that I refered to is actually a cd. It is by Oasis Audio and is called Men are like waffles Women are like Spaghetti, the authors are Bill and Pam Farrel. He never read or studied Dobson as may have been mentioned before.

Sadly I think you are right. Although there are MANY other issues, we will never have even a reasonalble sex life unless the porn stops but also not until he starts to value me and what I might enjoy. Little humor here... I vented to a friend a few months ago and I think she talked with her boyfriend. Well when they split he talked :(

Well my H comes home and very oddly makes the comment that we will have lots of sex (mind you this was in a normal conversation and didnt fit-the topic and was very off the cuff and random). Then he furthered my chagrin by saying and you don't have to be on top so that I can just lay there and not do anything and then he smirked at me. I didn't want to get into an argument about talking to people about our intimate lives so I just looked at him, smiled and said "well that would be nice" pause (and then slipped in "for a change"). So he stopped talking there and went about his business like he never said anything.

I had possibly the worst sexual experience of my life last night. until this I had thought that any sex was better than none, but I think that I could wind up in a situation like your friend. My H was very abrupt, required me to again get him ready... but didn't get me "ready" at all... when I finally got my way, it was so uncomfortable and painful that I wound up stopping numerous times to tell him that it hurt but he didn't stop until he was done. He didn't make comment about what happened even though I obviously didn't enjoy myself. Ah well. Tis the life I lead I guess.

Raymond thank you for responding to me after such a long time with no contact, I appreciate it and last night just solidified my resolve to give him the letter.

I felt obligated to write about the thread topic first, but on a different note, I talked to him a bit this morning. He has me be responsible for getting him up in the morning and asks me to set my alarm for a certain time in the morning. Last nights fiasco had me up until after midnight and his chosen time to get up was 6 am. However he is worse than a teenager and continued to ask me to snooze the alarm for him until 720. I told him that we really need to work out the whole setting the alarm to when he was actually going to get up thing. I told him becuase you can sleep through it, but I cant go back to sleep, I have been up since 6. He said yeah i know, it is easier for me to get up with the alarm like I should when I go to bed earlier. To which I replied- I am not the one that told you to hang out with the guys for hours last night down in town. He said yeah I know. Then I said and Kenzie would have been in bed an hour before if she didn't want to wait to see you, SHE is the one that you should be putting your time into, she is the one that should matter. I then took his little audio book's metaphor of a man as a waffle that can only concentrate on one thing at a time and shifted it to fit my thought. I said you know, I feel really sad that she is missing out on so much because her waffle square is so small... I understand when you need to be with the guys to do a car project (to save us money) but Many if not most times, you just CHOOSE to hang out with them... I desperately wanted to tell him that the size of MY waffle square was at the very bottom, under skiing, and cars, his guy friends, our daughter, our son, our house, our dog, and perhaps even others... but I elected not to... he wasnt talking but he wasn't yelling either and I felt I couldn't push my luck.

I guess I will give him the letter sooner than later. I am struggling really bad here. I pray about it, but maybe I am asking the wrong things. My mind is being clouded by the lack of sex. I have heard people say that sex isn't a problem unless you arent getting any... well im not getting any and I feel that I am being tormented by him with it (not intentionally, but because he knows my desires and diregards them and just takes what he wants.)

Can anyone give me some guidance? I am having a hard time getting my mnd on the bigger picture... I am finding myself preoccupied by the sexual side of it... I guess maybe that one is the easiest to put words to for me because it is so constant. I feel like I am just dribbling things out my fingers from my head right now, so i will end here.

I seem to be having problems emotionally with the events of last night similar to a victim of sexual abuse. I am alternately angry and upset. but I didn't stand up and say NO stop so I guess it is my fault... I hoped that it would get better as I relaxed, but as I just started to relax, he was done and then that was the end of his involvement. I was left feeling used I guess not to mention unsatisfied.

thanks amber

Raymond

15th January 2010, 08:34 PM

Your husband seems to be a bit of a selfish bully from my vantage point Amber. Are you afraid of him? It's either that or a control thing going on.

Enjoyment for sex for wives always comes out of relationship usually. Love should operate in the bedroom as elsewhere. He should know how to please you but seems focussed only on his own needs it appears. I believe the porn is tainting him. There is a spirit behind it which can come on him right into the bedroom through him. In a way it's just not you two having sex. It is him, you and all the others he is being tittilated by.We know that is not part of God's kingdom. Remember that God made sex but a mental adultery will marr it. It should be you only you and nobody else. Not all these young naked women he stirs himself up for. He is in a big deception over it I believe. From my experience, not personally, porn is a big killer in the bedroom. If he doesn't dump it he could become addicted and then he will have a fight on his hands.

I thought he was reading marriage books by Dobson but if that is not the case is he reading any christian marriage books? If he is I cannot see the fruit of it.

So you still have the letter and are choosing the right time. I would read it again and make sure you mean the words you say in it. Once he has it there is a certain stance you need to take. You need to be listened to. It would be no good carrying on the same after that as you have poured your soul into that letter.

Try and keep up any spiritual disciplines you have and get good fellowship. You need God's perspective on this as well.

Raymond

amberheller

15th January 2010, 08:47 PM

I am afraid of him, but not physically so much as emotionally.

It is that feeling of having to be totally different as soon as I give the letter that is making me feel so cautious. Ive been reading some other threads on here where the man has realized things about themselves and are changing. I am just so jealous of those women. My H promised the world when I served him the divorce papers. Now its at least as bad as it was except that he didn't yell at me this morning when I told him about my feelings on him needing to spend more time with our daughter. At best she gets 30 minutes from him all broken up and every time he comes in the room she becomes a little attention seeking hellion. He then criticises me for not controlling her better. I have tried to explain to him that if he spent more time w her she would not have to be so wild for his attention. She is 3 and ahalf. she will do what she needs to do to get what she feels she needs. And if that means jumping all over daddy whenever she sees him and being loud and obnoxious, then that is what she will do. since he came home she has started talking baby talk all the time to him. I don't like the regression, it worries me and I tell him to correct her and he tells me that she is fine. She has a VERY good vocabulary and talks very maturely until he comes home and everything is I wan you dada. up up when before for example she would say to me Momma I want you to hold me. Pick me up... I would prompt her to ask nicely and she would say pick me up please...

so yeah I am being sickened by the porn... I want to click on the sites to see what he is actually seeing, but I have hit a few before and it just depresses me so I wont.

thanks again Amber

Raymond

16th January 2010, 11:36 AM

I could feel that you were struggling about the letter Amber. You have had it for such a long time now. Maybe it's better to leave it until you really know it is right? It will take courage to give it, but when the timing is right you will have the courage. Maybe you can get the points over gradually to him? If he is never going to listen though maybe it will have to be the letter? It was a move of desperation more than anything.

Yes there are a lot of men on here going through a time of reflection about their behaviour. Some of it will be sadly too late others will turn it around.

Your daughter seems to be suffering from lack of nurture from your husband. Perhaps that is why she reverts to baby talk with him to get his sympathy?

Yeah don't look at the porn. It will be shocking and depressing. It's like an inroad to the most intimate part of your marriage. Sickening really as the purity in marriage can make sex amazing. Even if he does give it up it will take time and effort to wash his mind.

He really needs something to happen in his life to shake his pride perhaps? I would continue to pray about it. God can do that if He has to. We all need a little of it at times. Some of us are so thick we still don't repent even when God is chastising us but when we do the joy is amazing.

Raymond

amberheller

18th January 2010, 08:33 PM

So my shortest post ever I think... I am pretty sure that my H is angry with me and mean to me because he feels offended and taken advantage of because i am not a good housekeeper. Part of me understands this due to his OCD, and I feel sympathy, but I still don't feel that I should be treated the way that I am. He tells me that you guys are crazy (me and anyone that agrees with me), you all think that I am wrong and it is you that are wrong.

So is this me giving him another chance... by "seeing" his point again... or what? AHHHH I just want to scream... if he is upset by my lack of housekeeping ability does that give him the right to treat me badly in MANY other areas of our relationship? Oh and I DID NOT trick him... he KNEW my lack of housekeeping ability well before we were married and still he married me.

Amber

Ageing Grace

26th January 2010, 02:25 AM

Thank you very much for your messages, Amber. It's really good to hear from you.

I know how confusing everything seems from inside your kind of dilemma, because I've been there. I fully understand why everything feels wrong & upside-down ... it's hard for you to get your head around it, but it feels like your fault because he twists you that way. Never mind, it takes ages to extricate yourself from such a knotted trap. You've made some amazing steps towards regaining your own mind. Pat yourself on the back, and keep going. Baby steps!

I have agreed to stay away from other people's problems for a while - part of my own process, and I know my therapist is right. As I quit for the time being, Amber, I'll offer you two precious resources.

If you haven't yet read it, PLEASE get hold of a copy of Lundy Bancroft's book, it describes & explains so much: http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656

Here is the website of Women's Aid in the UK. They're fantastic for a sensible chat about relationship things :) They should also be able to point you towards good local resources:
http://www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-articles.asp?section=00010001002200410001&itemid=1272&itemTitle=What+is+domestic+violence

All the very best, and lots of love. I may not post, but I'll be keeping an eye out for you and wishing you well!

AG xx

Raymond

26th January 2010, 02:14 PM

Hi Amber. How did I miss your post?

Lack of housekeeping skills is nothing to do with it. My wife doesn't excel in this area but that is nothing to do with what is right and what is wrong.

I think he is going around in blinkers. How can he do porn and talk so righteous?

Believe me you are not wrong Amber. The way he is carrying on sticks out a mile for anyone who cares to read your posts.

I know that nobody has a perfect husband but to practice pornography goes beyond a normal decent line, expecially for a christian. I think he has tunnel vision and only sees what he wants to see.This is all mental adultery and affects the marriage and will seriously affect his spiritual life as well.

Be encouraged Amber you are not mad. Your points are extremely valid. We are not here to break mariages but to mend them and are not trying to set the wife against the husband. The point is he is already doing that by his obnoxious behaviour.

Raymond

jellybean28

26th January 2010, 02:41 PM

Amber

Like AG says keep going baby steps. By the time my marriage was over, I belived my Ex was Perfect :rolleyes:, and I was stupid, fat and ugly, un-employable and worthless oh and the best one paranoid because I thought he was having an affair (which he was), but hey I drove him to it, because of my so called faults. None of the above is true erm apart from I'm a bit overweight by a few Kilos. How did I come to believe this about myself? from his manipulative mind games.

Amber like Ray says you are not mad, and we are not here to break marriages, my only regret is I stayed in a toxic relationship which almost destroyed me for to long and then spent two years hoping he would come back.

Amber you are an intelligent woman who deserves better, and a few faults doesn't make you a bad wife or mother. No one is perfect or with out faults. Your hubands Porno obession is far worse than lack of a few house keeping skills and the pot has no right to call the kettle black.:eek:

Take Care Amber
JBxxxxx

Derek

28th January 2010, 03:41 AM

You need to find out if its physical or some other reason.

If not physical problem, could be another woman, possibly a prostitute or like some posters have said masturbation (while looking at online naked women or even porn).

Raymond

28th January 2010, 09:47 AM

Probably the latter reading between the lines Derek.

Raymond

amberheller

29th January 2010, 07:44 PM

Hi all... Id have posted sooner except my H has been home sick... hes out getting car work done so I have a second to read what has been written here.

AG- If you do happen to read this, THANK YOU for all that you have done for me. I appreciate you from the bottom of my heart. Take the time you need, the space you deserve, and if you do need me, I will be here for YOU to the best of my abilities.

Raymond- When I posted on here in a few places and got no responses I felt that I had angered people... I realize that it was me feeling guilty for not being more present here that caused that feeling, and it was quite egocentric. Also has something to do with my mindstate of not feeling good enough- in my head I said to myself, Amber you dolt, now you did it, a few people that took the time and energy to help you and now you proved to them that you aren't worth their time... geez... I need to work on that! We got into an argument a few days ago and he exclaimed at the end of a rant of his - "And don't write me any long notes... I don't need that. Do you hear me???" to which I replied quietly yes I hear you. if I had ANY guts I would have said well I have a note for you, but it is already written does that count? and handed it to him. But I didn't.

Derek, I am in the US... I don't know what they are called where you are, but he has visited strip clubs a bunch of times... I found out the last time (right when he was coming home from his work away for 2 months-his buddy picked him up from the airport because it was late. I called him right as he was meeting his friend. He said they had to pick up a few of his friends buddies to just give them a ride. So I figured he would be home in about an hour. 2 passed... and 3 and I went to bed. over 4 and a half hours after I talked to him, he got home. I asked him where he had been and that I had waited up as long as I could. He said oh his friend had to go to the nudie bar because he doesn't have a girlfriend (he was trying to make light of the situation). I said oh and you had to go along then I guess huh? He didn't say anything. This seemed VERY planned out.

Dont get me wrong... I thing that the human form as anything else in nature is a beautiful thing. But these men are going and getting all worked up over seeing this women dance evocatively while barely clothed... if not nude... there are rumors about lap dances being performed on a previous visit, but nothing confirmed. To the best of my knowledge that is the limit of his indiscretion, porn and strip clubs... but who knows.

I need a nap I think... thanks again!

headoverheelsinlove

30th January 2010, 02:10 AM

I have cried-begged-fought with my husband over sex (or lack there of) for 2 years. Before we married I joked that I didn't care about $$$ or my home, but I wanted a pre-nup for sex every night. Now I would be happy with 3x a week, and I can't seem to get it once! Before we were married he always wanted me.
He has used EVERY excuse in the book, Anti-depressants (had them changed from prozac to Wellbutrin xl), Family issues with his brother causing MAJOR stress, a work related injury requiring surgery, his low self esteem due to weight gain. IT IS ALWAYS SOMETHING!!! I have tried everything I can think of, and nothing works.
NEWSFLASH, an astounding number of men (and women) are addicted to internet porn, it can destory your sex life, and your marriage. I just had a goofy feeling and took the computer to a data recovery geek. Even though it was all dumped, he was able to pull it up for me. My husband tried to deny, but did admit it. He is getting help, and our marriage is in recovery already. HE IS ONE OF THE MOST HONEST PEOPLE I KNOW, AND I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS HAPPENED. It takes everything out of your physical relationship, It is an addiction, just like a drug.

Raymond

30th January 2010, 12:23 PM

Raymond- When I posted on here in a few places and got no responses I felt that I had angered people... I realize that it was me feeling guilty for not being more present here that caused that feeling, and it was quite egocentric. Also has something to do with my mindstate of not feeling good enough- in my head I said to myself, Amber you dolt, now you did it, a few people that took the time and energy to help you and now you proved to them that you aren't worth their time... geez... I need to work on that! We got into an argument a few days ago and he exclaimed at the end of a rant of his - "And don't write me any long notes... I don't need that. Do you hear me???" to which I replied quietly yes I hear you. if I had ANY guts I would have said well I have a note for you, but it is already written does that count? and handed it to him. But I didn't.

Amber it is nice to hear from you. With regard to the above this site is a provision not a duty. You are welcome at anytime. Even just to rant. It is not my site but I am sure David and Liz (the owners) would concur with this.

I can't imagine saying that to my wife what he said about the letter. It sounds very callous and cruel to me. Your husband hasn't got it right regarding sex and could be at some stage of porn addiction. The scripture is very clear about sex only within marriage. That is why it is so important to get it right. Any sex outside marriage is adultery including pornography and the assoctiated practices. The same word is used for spiritual adultery where we inwardly worship an idol instead of God. Relationship is very intimate with God and within marriage. Expressing that urge outside marriage, porn in this case, is a travesty. It may be that sex is a kind of worship at least of our bodies and souls but porn muddies the waters and perverts what should be pure.

As a man if I get an idle moment in bed and find my self thinking of a female image sexually as soon as I am aware of it I turn my thoughts to my wife instead. Keeping the bedroom exciting is a great help in this. If we are not drinking from the right fountain we could be in danger of drinking from the wrong fountain. Doing porn is the opposite of this and is actually feeding the lust instead of resisting it. That lust will then grow and grow until it becomes an addiction.

http://player.premier.tv/premiertv.aspx?AssetId=2987ff5d-23e6-47f0-b698-e18b855df666&ChannelId=

The above outlines some of what I am saying. On the same site there is an investigation into porn.

I know I need to be talking to your husband and not you Amber but if you can learn anything about it from a christian point of view you may be armed to bring a word of wisdom at the right time.

I believe Porn can be grounds for divorce personally. Not saying it is automatic grounds. It has to be worked out between the wife and her God, but good counseling will help as well.

God bless you
Raymond

Raymond

30th January 2010, 12:40 PM

I am so glad your husband has recognised the sin of watching porn Headoverheals. It always takes away from the marriage bed in most cases I have observed.

It will be a struggle for him, but the more he arms himself with the right teaching on it the more chance he has of being delivered.

Sex is God's gift within marriage and can be a virtual ongoing feast, but who is the one who has come to kill, steal and to destroy?

Let us know how he gets on. We need to hear from those who have won this battle. God can restore the years the locusts have eaten if we let Him.

Raymond

headoverheelsinlove

1st February 2010, 12:49 AM

I am torn between how to help him out of this mess. Do I ask questions, or not? I read THE PORN TRAP, and I have compassion for the withdrawl that he must be suffering. He is seeing a counselor, and is making great strides. He has low self esteem related to this, feels like a low life. I do not know how to relate to him. Do I ask ???? How long?, How many times per week?? We have always had such great communication, and I don't want to break that now, but this is such a bizarre private issue. I cannot decide how to relate to him, it almost seems like he is becoming a stranger.

Raymond

1st February 2010, 12:36 PM

Personally I don't think it would be helpful to ask how long or how many times a week it was. If he is putting this behind him he needs to now look forward not back. Having said that part of his healing will be being open to you about it. If he wants to broach that let him. You can't not be involved as you are his wife and it would have affected your intimacy with him so you need to fight this together.

That he feels it is a low life is a truth. He needs that disgust to be motivated for victory over it. If he didn't feel that he may not have come to repentance, but having repented he will know that the blood of christ washes him from all sin. The enemy will try to put condemnation on him which isn't healthy. The main thing for him now is to resist and build a different pattern of behaviour. He will do it with God's help and your help.

There are a number of christians who have overcome this and have come into freedom. They will know it is not a game and have learned where the defences should be. In the end one of the best defences apart from personal faith is to enjoy the legitimate sexual relationship and intimacy that God has given in marriage, but this might take time for him. Pornography actually attacks this strangely enough so healing would bring this back into focus.

I expect that this strangeness could be coming from his disgust with himself perhaps feeling that he is not worthy of you. I wouldn't rush this. He is doing the right thing. He is in a battle for freedom just now. Be patient and all things should be restored much better than they were before.

Raymond

Derek

2nd February 2010, 04:14 AM

Unfortunately some people are not sexually compatabile and the relationship can evolve away from sex. One thing a lot of women don't realize is once a man say 55 has a 25 year old girl for sex it will change his perspective and the 50 ish woman may seem repulisive to him. So these two factors together can be a very negative synergy for a marriage.

Many young gals nowdays delight in giving a man foreplay or modeling for him. It is part of their sexual arousal process so if a 45-50ish wife is prudish about giving her husband foreplay or dressing up for him, well he may prefer the other, much younger woman.

The BBC Show "Secret Diary of a Call Girl" is a fav show of many young women nowadays. IMO many of these young women fantasize about being a call girl.

spiderman

2nd February 2010, 02:18 PM

Derek...I think you have hit on a couple of salient points there buddy !

The younger women of today are more sexually liberated and know what they want. Many older women are quite/too reserved in the bedroom which can cause problems . Well it did in mine anyway...big problems..... marriage ending in fact!

jellybean28

2nd February 2010, 02:50 PM

The younger women of today are more sexually liberated and know what they want. Many older women are quite/too reserved in the bedroom which can cause problems

Spider you have a point there, but when a woman is pushing the other side of 40, and knows there are plenty of 20yrs who are available, it's a bit hard not to feel intimidated in the bedroom. Especially when she's had children and the body isn't as firm as it used to be. Aging is much harder on women than men. Grey hair in men is often referred to as distinguished, where as in woman the're just getting old etc.

They can be other issues, ubringing, sexual abuse that may make the woman feel dirty if she acts in a certain way in the bedroom. Communication can often be a problem, depending, where shyness and feeling vulnerable may be present.

In some cases some men, by their actions and comments can make a woman feel inadequate compared to a younger woman. A man who can make a woman feel safe, sexy and desirable and is fairly skilled himself in the bedroom, will be smiling on a very regular basis. :)

Nothing personal Spider, just a comment to your post.

spiderman

2nd February 2010, 03:58 PM

No I also agree with some of your points as well Gillian.

Just my own personal experiences drove me to write the post above. My ex is a very very attractive woman with a very very good body and age has done nothing to diminish that....she could put some 20 somethings to shame. I also used to tell her how I fancied her and when we used to go out she would turn many a blokes heads in bars , resteraunts etc...

Yet she didnt like getting undressed in front of me most of the time even though I used to pay compliments regularly and made her feel sexy and desirable.

She had a catholic upbringing which didnt help and her parents didnt discuss sex at all so she was quite sheltered I suppose......I was definitely wrong for her because i am very open and communicative about sex and likes and dislikes in the bedroom.

I suppose she was a little shy too but after a period of time you would think that would disappear between two people who know each other sexually????

Lee

Raymond

2nd February 2010, 06:49 PM

It can take time for some women to lose their inhibitions in the bedroom Spiderman. You did well to try and build her confidence. It took my wife a while to get where she is today as she kind of lived a sheltered life. I am very honoured that she was a virgin, which is how it ought to be. Mainly they will adapt to who you are and you to them. Everyone is different.

I think what the younger women are doing today is irrelevant in a way as the marriage is between you and your spouse. Purity is a great energiser in the bedroom.

Raymond

spiderman

2nd February 2010, 09:41 PM

Raymond it takes two to tango tho mate and if one isnt at the dance you end up with a solo routine

Lee

Raymond

3rd February 2010, 09:23 AM

It is wrong for a husband or wife to defraud their partner. The husband's body belongs to the wife and the wife's body belongs to the husband. There isn't any choice not to have sex as a christian unless you are both consenting to it. If one of them has problems at least they should be aiming to overcome in order to have normal sexual relations.

Raymond

spiderman

3rd February 2010, 10:09 AM

try telling that to my ex mate....no way did she see her body belonging to me.....period !

Raymond

3rd February 2010, 01:31 PM

She obviously wasn't a christian.

Our bodies belong to each other only and that is why adultery or porn is a travesty of this.

Raymond

spiderman

3rd February 2010, 03:42 PM

born and bred catholic Raymond.....go figure

headoverheelsinlove

4th February 2010, 12:05 AM

I THOUGHT our bodies belonged to each other, and before we married, we had the most fulfilling sex life. As soon as I got my ring, it was as if he shut off. I have tried EVERYTHING, OFFERED everything. No offense to anyone, but I feel like the man, ( seems they are usually the ones with this complaint ). In the last few days, I have started to wonder if I really even want him anymore. When you beg your husband for sex daily for 2 years, it really takes something out of you. I have told him many times how I feel degraded, and like a whore. If the tables turn, and he gets well, and wants to be with me, I'm scared, it might be too late. Maybe some people only want what they can't have????

amberheller

4th February 2010, 12:39 AM

headoverheelsinlove, I just wanted to jump in here as a woman and say that while I don't have advice (or I wouldn't be in this same thread like 1000 times) I do sympathize with you. I also have a horrible sex life... feel like the man as you put it, and the worst part of it for me is not knowing if I can want him like that again... I say I want a good sex life with him and do find him attractive, but I am not aroused by him anymore. I am sorry you are going through this, ... you are not alone. Amber

Raymond

4th February 2010, 01:56 PM

born and bred catholic Raymond.....go figure

Spiderman I was brought up as a Catholic, can sing Latin and do the whole thing but that doesn't make me a christian. There is a difference in wearing a denominational label be it protestant, catholic or whatever and coming into relationship with Christ with all that entails. No offence to your wife, she may be a christian for all I know, but there can be a difference between religion and knowing christ.

From the biblical standpoint our bodies are not sexually our own but belong to our spouses. That is why it is robbery to go with someone else or to do porn etc. Sex certainly affects our bodies and our souls, some even say our spirits as well.

Porn would affect that pure relationship in marriage as we are imbibing in and opening ourselves up to a sexual experience with others whether we realise that or not. It has to affect the marriage bed and my experience shows that it consistently does.

I do know at least two Christian women who were refusers but came to see that it was wrong and turned the whole thing around. When I say turned around I mean really turned around. Can a woman go over the top? I don't think so when it's only towards her husband.

Raymond

Raymond

4th February 2010, 02:09 PM

Head over Heels no doubt he had a sexual drive, and still has, but it seems like it was diverted into porn soon after you were married. He has obviously become addicted.

He will have a massive battle on his hands to get free. I do know about christians who became addicted. They got free but I don't know their full story. They post on a site I go to occasionally. I could let you know what it is if you like, but it's not only about porn. It's about the sexual side of marriage.

Is he a christian? Is he getting christian ministry? I don't see how one can get free without God's help personally speaking as you have to know it is wrong to win through.

I know you are wilting and I believe that in some cases porn can be grounds for divorce, but at least he is trying unlike some others who don't even admit that it is wrong. I hope you find your answers.

Raymond

headoverheelsinlove

8th February 2010, 11:06 PM

How long has it been like this for you? It is like living in prison. My 1st marriage was 12 yrs of unhappiness, and neither one of us wanted each other, but this is SO MUCH WORSE. What we had was great.....til he bought the cow... hahaha

headoverheelsinlove

8th February 2010, 11:13 PM

He admitted it right away, and is in counseling. He has done alot of research of late, and is scared of how much worse it can get. (alot of addicts end up turning to child porn after many years, due to the fact of building a tolerance, just like drug addicts, the need escalates) There is no denial on his part, it is just upsetting that we have been wasting every day fighting over something I didn't know I was up against. He never used THE INTERNET, only LIMEWIRE, was to afraid of the trouble it causes. He has removed limewire from the computer.

amberheller

9th February 2010, 03:01 AM

I cant write now cuz my H is here... ill catch you soon I promise!

Raymond

9th February 2010, 01:42 PM

I don't know what Limewire is Headoverheals but I would have thought that if he still has internet porn is available. At least he is taking action but cutting off the source he used. He is beginning to realise how dangerous it is and hopefully how it is affecting his marriage, especially the intimate part.

His mind will still be bringing him the images for a while yet but at least hopefully he has cut off the source. Hopefully he is learning about the sanctity of marriage and how intimacy if only between a man and his wife and not this menatal adultery.

Raymond

Raymond

9th February 2010, 01:46 PM

I don't know what Limewire is but at least he has cut off the source which can't be bad. It's available on internet as well but he is obviously trying to change his habit and hopefully will not use that.

You seem a bit cynical Headoverheals. Are you not convinced that he is trying to get the victory? A lot of men don't even admit that it is wrong.

Raymond

amberheller

9th February 2010, 09:33 PM

Raymond,

Not to pirate the thread again... but the letter will be going soon... it is very bad again... just an update.

Amber

amberheller

10th February 2010, 02:29 AM

Finally a bit of space. Head over heels... my story is in this forum in detail earlier on... but in short... this is my first marriage... and my tenth anniversary is coming up in June. Before my marriage my husband was affectionate and loving... or perhaps before our engagement... after that I started being unhappy... or I should say less than happy... I confronted him and the best he could give me was that Amber relationships change as they grow and you need to learn to be flexible... and then he would allude to the "fun" that we would have once we were married... sometimes he would be very blatant and say things like you know once we are married im not going to take my hands off of you... can we say LIAR!!!! :eek: We had sex... didn't make love... but had sex 6 times in our first 9 months of marriage... and 3 were on our honeymoon... and one time he was so mean to me that I was crying... not physically mean mind you, but emotionally mean. Now... tomorrow is my Birthday... im turning 30... and as a friend puts it 'Women hit their sexual peak in their 30's' Well let me tell you if I have not peaked yet then I am going to be even more miserable in a few years... (sorry tried to inject some humor and it failed;))... But there are MANY other issues in my marriage as my posts in this threat will explain and so I wont go into now! Raymond just breathed a BIG sigh of relief I bet! I have begun again to reach the point of detaching emotionally and so I think im almost ready for my letter... or letters as it may be. Pray for me please... I know I need the guidance!

Raymond

10th February 2010, 02:08 PM

Hi Amber. Why would I heave a big sigh of relief? The site is for you to write what you want.

I see that the problems continue. I am praying and I trust you are as God likes to hear from His children and is an ever present help in time of need.

You are not the only woman I know of in this predicament and I know it goes right against your womanhood. I know women where the husband hasn't touched them for years because they are into pornography. Some of them call themselves christians. I know of others where the husbands have repented and overcame the problem and now have good marriages. Yet others have wanted out and got divorced.

Sometimes I feel that you think the problem is not pornography for some reason but what else can it be? It certainly fits the pattern. If a husband is doing mental adultery then there are going to big problems in the bedroom and therefore the marriage. Sex is also in the context of relationship. Take it outside of that and it can become monstrous. A husband can have many faults, but this one goes right to the heart of the marriage.

I see your husband as a hypocrite I'm afraid, which means he has a false show of virtue. He can find repentance. It is possible. From what I am hearing however he doesn't seem to be anywhere near it. How long do you hang on? As I said before I believe pornography can be grounds for divorce personally speaking. I don't see why you have to endure this facade forever.

Whatever you do you have to do it because you believe it is right. I would send the letter and see what his response is. Do you still mean the letter or do you have a fresh letter? It was a long time ago now.

God bless for now

Raymond

amberheller

10th February 2010, 03:29 PM

Oh Raymond you give me very wise, very helpful responses... I really feel that I was guided into finding this site!

You are very perceptive and I do many times feel blame for this situation. I do agree with you that much of this is the porn... in addition to that my H has OCD and may be bipolar, so that adds as well. He has anger and control issues, doesn't seem to have matured to adulthood with its responsibilities when those years passed him... he is verbally aggressive, self centered, and traumatizes me with the cycle of abuse. At the same time, he will not show me affection... I do not get hugs. I do not get kisses. I do not get touches. YOU helped me Identify my love language. This is detrimental to my well being. I NEED that closeness, that intimacy, that reassurance it is the love air that I thrive on... I have not had any for close to 11 years. Sex for me is not enough... I need to feel that closeness... although there are days that I think I would settle for just quick romp in the sheets... I know that I cant. I did some research and his love language is different than mine... still even knowing that I cant seem to reconcile the absence touch in my life.

On another note, yes it is the same letter... adjusted slightly for the time difference... I think the time difference while confusing to him will let him know just how longstanding of an issue this is... I hope. Two days ago he told me just what he thinks of me and my lack of household skills... He said Amber YOU are a scumbag... and I guess my only choice because you will not change is to be happy with living like a scumbag... he repeated this 3X with various little additives. (I am behind on household tasks... I have been trying to wrap my head around the issues here and have been even further lax in getting tasks done. Not to mention feeling a bit depressed that I am here again.) So now he again checks for my understanding of what he is said... how nice of him right? In a deadly cold voice... so... Amber do you understand what I am saying... I nod. No... do you understand that I am going to have to be a scumbag because you cannot complete even simple acts of daily living. me... yes. Do you understand that this is unacceptable? that I am embarrassed every time people come over because you are a scumbag and it reflects on you and ME badly. me... yes I understand... he lets me go for about 3 minutes and calls me back to discuss the dishes which i haven't done in 3 days and stands there very still and very controlled and says to me Amber I need you to get these dishes done tomorrow... I am trying very hard here biting back words that I want to say to you... these are bad words from bad thoughts that make me want to do bad things... Do you GET what I am saying??? I said yes I get it... A friend came over and he continued the demeaning criticisms... finally I lost it... He cut me off midstream and said you cant tell me that you think I am wrong... and starts ticking off all my misdeeds... I stared him in the face and said you know what... your ideas are not the part that I have issue with... the issue and my anger are directed at the fact that I am obviously subhuman to you. You treat me/ he cuts me off and says I am the one angry here you need to stop talking and just listen and do what I ask you to do and stop being lazy... this whole time our friend is sitting behind me and I can here him shifting in his chair. Our friend leaves after a while and he just continues on with the attack... turning all the lights off and making me follow him with a flashlight to all my areas of lacking in the house... the intake vents that I didn't vaccum, the dishes, the kids toys... the cat litter boxes (I couldn't do them cuz I needed more litter) All the while our daughter is screaming cuz she is a bit scared of the dark and he is forcing me to follow him and saying you need to shut her up... I tried to explain the reason she was upset and he said no you need to handle her.

So I am so past this right now that I need to stop writing and do some stuff... So you see Raymond... I believe the porn is a poison in an already tainted relationship... perhaps the porn started the spiral and the rest has been added over time... now with it all coming to a head the porn seems the elephant in the room that everyone is trying to ignore.

Again I find myself wishing that he just let lose the anger and would hit me... it would all be easy then... well much easier anyway decision wise!

good day all!

Amber

spiderman

10th February 2010, 04:26 PM

Amber he is the scumbag...whether he is OCD/bipolar or not he has no right to call you names or villify you in front of a guest. He is a bully and you need to get away from him asap.

Re the sexual side...I cannot understand a man who does not want a loving sexual relationship with his wife....im sorry I dont get it ? You are coming into your sexual prime and guess what its all going to go to waste with him...porn is an addiction..hell I like looking at porn and I have a high sex drive but I use it as a suppliment to sex NOT as a replacement ! (well at the moment it is all I have as I am single..lol).

Lee

Raymond

10th February 2010, 07:34 PM

I hope you can ignore the last part of that Amber if you know what I mean. Even a little amount will affect the relationship.

This is really awful Amber. You are being brow beaten as well it seems. Did he come into the marriage like this, as a porn addict I mean? I have noticed that control and mental cruelty often follow porn. The de-humanising of it seems to flow over it seems. How much more of this can you take? A separation might get the point across. I honestly cannot see a marriage being mended while the husband is using porn to meet his sexual needs. Did you watch the DVD Fireproof. It has some good points although it might make you frustrated because your husband isn't repenting.

Are you getting fellowship with other christians Amber? It will help your faith and help you to keep afloat. Do you actually belong to a fellowship where the church can get behind you on this? I am assuming you are a christian who experiences the love of Christ daily. Please say if you are not there yet. It is important to be able to draw on God's strength when you need it. Religion doesn't help. It's Christ we need. If you go to a fellowship does your husband go with you?

It seems you are being hammered into the ground by your husband and being treated as subhuman. The opposite of what the scriptures encourage a husband to be.

Are you ready to send the letter? I don't think he will be able to change without dealing with the porn and one needs a lot of humility to do that. Have you made up your mind what will happen if it is rejected? You have to really be ready for both eventualities. If he accepts it or rejects it. I would say get it firmly in your mind what your response will be. If you cannot do that at least work towards it afterwards. Everyone is different. I don't want to force it, but you probably have some idea in your head what you will do.

Prayer will be your most powerful tool Amber. As you are his child God will hear all the cries you offer to Him. He will answer. Sometimes in ways you could not have imagined. You must do the practical as well of course.

God bless you Amber. We will pray. Try and build up the self esteem which he appears to be tearing down. You are accepted in the beloved. Never forget that.

Raymond

amberheller

11th February 2010, 01:40 AM

Thanks guys! That was a typical argument... look how it goes one way :(... but yes Raymond I have what has come to be known as letter 1 which you have read... and then just in case... letter 2...

bit of humor... looks like hes feeling generous... it is my Birthday and he got me an icecream cake and put it in the freezer with a condom on it... guess hes planning on a momentous occasion... I don't know what will happen cuz im really not "there" with him if you understand. There is so much negative going on that there is no way that I can look past and just step forward right now...

ok im afraid he will come back and find me on here... he would freak here he comes bye!

Raymond

11th February 2010, 09:24 AM

I don't know how you can be with him in it because it won't be just the two of you it will be you and all those other porn women in his head. It does affect it honestly.

Raymond

amberheller

11th February 2010, 02:34 PM

Well, just an update... nothing happened last night. Surprise surprise... thats ok though. I was very tired... I wonder why lol and he was mean to me so I didnt want him near me let alone "doing" anything with me... so I fell asleep on the sofa. :o

amberheller

14th February 2010, 06:04 PM

Hi all I need a moment to release this so I will put it here...

I think I have my husband on tape last night threatening the life of my dog if I don't sell it... I want to get some proof of his treatment b4 the letter even if it is just a few snippets... to back me up. less of a he said she said if I have some proof... anyway his words leading up were about how he hates my dogs... and then.... You need to get rid of them especially that white one before I do something about it... Which I replied I dont think it is a good thing to do to threaten the life of an animal... he said im just warning you what is going to happen...

Don't know if that gives me any power or not having it on tape, but it feels good.

jellybean28

15th February 2010, 03:46 PM

Oh Amber

I am really worried for you, your husband is out of control and no-one deserves to be treated like this. The fact that he is threatening your dogs with harm is caus for concern, be careful Amber.

If you can get proof get it, also if you have a family member you can trust and talk to tell them.
If need be write things down and date them, getting someone you can trust to look after what you have written and any other proof you may have, don't keep it in the house for him to find

Be careful Amber, and think carefully before sending him your letter, this may just set him off.

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers Amber, try and post when you can. I hope I haven't scared you Amber, but from what you've posted I am worried for you.

Warm safe hugz JB xxxxx

Raymond

16th February 2010, 09:25 AM

Amber says he isn't physically violent Jellybean just mentally cruel.

Raymond

amberheller

16th February 2010, 02:13 PM

Jellybean... I know that every person is capable of violence. I also know that my husband has it in him if he snapped, or got desperate. I think he knows that is a line for me though... cuz years ago he tried to scare me into "behaving" by intimidating me physically... backed me up against a door and punched it next to my head... and then was pissed at me cuz his knuckles we all mangled... I don't have my dog that stood up for me that day anymore... god I loved that dog... he died a few months ago but that was one of my fondest memories of him... I saved him, and in turn he wanted to save me... I found him in the shelter by chance and felt called to save him... hmmm wonder who put him in my path??? I have no doubts actually. :)

Now I have kids... and my 3 and a half year old winds up interrupting him every couple of days to tell him not to yell at her mommy... or stop being mean to my mommy... those break my heart. She will say to me mommy, daddy is not nice yelling at you... and then in the next few minutes... mommy I miss my daddy... I tell her I know sweetie, daddy is at work. She just says I want him to come home... So even at 3 she is fighting with this... she loves her daddy but is torn by his behavior...

ok things to do I must be going!

jellybean28

16th February 2010, 02:31 PM

Raymond, I went back over some of Ambers posts, and found one where she was talking about her husband making her perform oral sex on him, yet not satisfying her in return, also it seems that he would rather her let her son cry while she keeps her husband happy, the way that I read that post is that he is very controling, yes emotionally abusive (the lowest for of abuse leaves no physical marks but terrible scars which cannot be seen).

After reading about his threats to the dogs, I feel that it may be only a matter of time before he could become violent, especially if he feels he is losing control over Amber. It could become worse.

I hope I'm wrong with what I feel maybe happening, only time will tell. In the meantime I will still keep Amber in my thoughts and send her positive vibes and hugs.

Raymond

17th February 2010, 01:42 PM

I agree with what you are saying Jellybean. He has not been directly violent yet though. It is always possible but I think Amber is reasonably confident that he is not directly violent.

Raymond

amberheller

22nd February 2010, 02:14 AM

Hey there... im ready... he is getting the letter TONIGHT. He forced me to sell my dogs by threatening to kill them, threw one of my cats today across 2 rooms... and has been a bear... now hes being all rational and nice. Quite reasonable in fact... quoting a book he has been reading that is helping him to interact with people better... but states that I am the person that he is having the most trouble with interacting... So while I feel that a married couple will have their struggles, that we should also be relying on one another for support, to make our strengths stronger and our weaknesses weaker by operating as a team... too bad I don't have that... Ill update when I can... Letter 1 tonight... maybe letter 2 which is effectively a calm and nicely written goodbye letter with a section on where we go from here... almost 5 pages each we will see what happens.

good night

Amber

amberheller

22nd February 2010, 04:21 PM

So he didn't get it last night... I was not ready for the battle... I was too tired... today he will get it in a more positive light...

Raymond

22nd February 2010, 06:29 PM

You have to choose the time Amber.

I don't understand why he won't give up the porn and work on relating to you. You should be the most important peson in his life. He obviously has dificulty in relating. Maybe you letter may help him understand what is going on.

Raymond

amberheller

24th February 2010, 03:49 PM

So the stress of the when to give the letter is over. I did give it when I said I was in my following post. I left it for him and went out with the kids. He began calling me almost immediately and I ignored him in order to make sure that he read it before talking with me in anger. He then showed up at the library where the kids and I went (I told him where we were so he didn't think I disappeared with them). He was helpful with the kids, polite to a friend that was with me (I planned it that way), and didn't really say much to me (although that is normal). He suggested taking the kids to the convenience store to get some ice cream. My friend went too. We had a good time and all decided to go skiing the next day.

He says that he want so work through all of this and we talked about a lot of my feelings and hashed through some of my hurt and that I really am a better mom and a better person without him. I am having a hard time filtering all of this now. When it comes down to it, Im struggling bcause he wants to work through it and I don't know wher i stand.

His point is that we are married and have 2 kids and that he wants to work at it so WHY wouldnt I? My point is that I gave him this chance over a year and a half ago already and all that has happened is that we got our finances on track a little more and that the rest fell apart even worse and that I have had a LOT of hurt and pain in this relationship and I need time to figure if and how I can forgive him and move forward. He said that he prayed for ME 2 days before he met me and he is not just going to let me leave now.

Then he told me that he cant live with the stress and needs to know how long I will need to forgive him I told him that it is not the kind of thing that I can just say Oh well I need 3 days and then I will forgive you

I cant just put a timeframe on it.

Then he wanted a LIST of all of the people that had supported me in this because they were wrong and he wants to keep an eye on them. I told him that I don't feel it is my responsibility to report to him the people that are supporting me. Which he counted that they were not supporting me, but telling me to leave my husband. I replied that they were not TELLING me to leave, but encouraging me to do what I need to do to be happy, and I they have seen that I am unhappy and some have SEEN first hand our interactions and they know how unhealthy it is.

He then stopped talking for a bit came back saying that these were jumping too far into the relationship and they were wrong... and that he knows that I am a reasonable person so it MUST be them.
He again stopped talking (he was getting ready for work) and then came back very calmly and said that he needs to know if I am going to forgive him or if he is going to be responsible for 3-4 murders (he only deduced 3-4 people out of all of my friends that were supporters- although if he thought about it, there are more like 15 to 20 in person supporter... not to count virtual support). I told him that if that is his way of thinking and if that is how he is going to be then I really dont think that he is the kind of person that I or the kids should be around. I also didn't think it fair for HIM to pressure me to forgive HIM by threatening MY friends. (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1178610466)

He came back after a few minutes and tried to backpedal saying that his way of thinking about this isn't healthy and that he wants to start listening to his audio cd that he got before, tonight with me. And I said ok... to which he replied that if I am willing to listen to that then he is going to ASSUME that I am going to forgive him because if he doesn't then he cant think straight.

So despite that being long, that is only a small piece of what has happened. He is being nice, spending more time with the family and is trying. I expected that though. SO WHAT NOW. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to be hurt, I don't want to treat my kids badly. I don't want to cry anymore. I want to miss my husband when he leaves instead of breathing a sigh of relief, I want to smile sometimes just because. I want to not look forward to life just to have my hopes crumpled and thrown at my feet...

There are a bunch of men going through this on this site from my husbands side... and I WISH for advice from one of them if they happen to read. I am very distraught right now. I am, oh I don't even know what I am right now... Im stressed, tired, confused... he keeps telling me that god is merciful and forgiving... taking from the kids current DVD obsession of Veggie Tales where that was the message. However, in that particular episode, where Jonah brought a message of redemption or punishment to Nineveh... that if Nineveh hadn't complied with gods command then they would have been punished and that I gave him this chance once before. And that he always quotes the Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me comment. He said that is the case if the person you are working with is a fool, in that they are not willing to work on things.

So I could ramble all day here, but considering my almost 4 year old just took the opportunity to sneak her scissors in her room and cut her hair by herself, I better step outside of myself and try here today. I am so SO tired of having to think and feeling bad.

thanks again. Amber

Raymond

24th February 2010, 08:56 PM

Amber, I see extreme manipulation there in his response, especially putting the burden on you that he will kill your advisers. Where one hoped for repentance we see an attack on your advisers. There is also a manipulation of the word of God for his own benefit regarding forgiveness.

On the subject of forgiveness. Forgiveness does not necessarily restore relationship where there is no repentance and no prospect of change. If you said in three days time that you forgive him one cannot assume that relationship is restored if he is going to do nothing about the cruelty and the porn and all the other stuff. It's the same as christ dying to forgive the sins of the world. No forgiveness can be received without repentance. That is not what we are seeing here I'm afraid. His response is very vague to say the least.

I sense he is wanting to tie you up with words and guilt rather than humbling himself and repenting. It is nice that you had a good day out ski-ing but the underlying situation seems unchanged from where I stand. You don't want to be bribed if the basic problems are not being changed.

You gave it your best shot. I don't see how it is going to work without his sincere repentance and a decision to change for the sake of your marriage.

I pray you find your answers. His initial response is disappointing.

Raymond

amberheller

24th February 2010, 10:14 PM

Dont get me wrong, his behavior is very good, and he is talking about making things right, and is planning to make any changes that I see fit... but my problem is that shouldn't these changes be changes that he sees as necessary from inside himself... I don't want a puppet... I want a husband. I don't want to say I need you to jump and he says how high... I want to say I need you to jump and he says ok lets do it together... as high as we can as a team.

He is saying that he accepts fault for the issues... that his behavior was horrible... he didn't apologize for it though. He is saying that he will change... but he is also telling me that before he can work on these things that he needs to know that I am committed to the marriage... Is HE really in the position to make demands of ME????

I prayed to GOD for the strength to give my letter and to be able to take that step. He gave me that... now I need to be able to see if my husband is being genuine in his desire to change... or maybe be guided to my decision despite his desires if that is the right path. Or maybe I already have my answers and I am just fighting myself trying not to hurt my husband and trying not to disappoint those that are supporting me and don't want to see me hurt... AGAIN. Those two sides are very opposite.

So here we are again... I am happy I gave the letter I have more peace with him knowing all of that... it was therapeutic to have him tell me his response to a few items like when I told him that i am a better mother and person when he is gone. He was like Amber that is horrible... not that you are horrible, but that I do that. Now hes planning on leaving for colorado in mid/end march instead of April and is like well I have a month to get things on track with you... then he will be gone until the end of June. So over 3 months.

I may just tell him to stay out there. He wouldn't listen, but it would feel good in a way...

Conflicting emotions right now are ruling me. Here he is gotta go! Amber

Raymond

25th February 2010, 09:04 AM

Okay he should be changing for conscience sake but maybe he is not strong enough without knowing you are committed to the marriage. This is the part that I said you had to be prepared to do. Remember? Maybe he needs the encouragement of you working with him to help him overcome?

If that is the case forgiveness would be logical to me.

Raymond

amberheller

25th February 2010, 05:07 PM

Oh Raymond I am having such a hard time. Hes giving me little kisses... still pecks, but more of them but he demands them... I dont feel anything but repulsion ... I am having a hard time being forgiving him. I don't love him... can I get past this or is it over... dang this is hard... REALLY hard!

Raymond

25th February 2010, 08:09 PM

You have to work out what these pecks mean Amber. If they aren't love then maybe they mean something else. Possibly manipulation? Remember love wants the best for the other and never forces itself. So there is a red light there. The main thing is to keep your head. You don't have to treat as love what isn't love. As his wife you will know the difference.

If he is genuine there will be fruit. From what you are saying he is willing to work on the things you brought up so long as you are committed to the marriage, so you need more than these pecks from him. You neeed action about the cruelty and about the porn and the other things you would have brought up.

Your husband seems very weak and insecure to me which wasn't apparent to me in your first posts. Sometimes I feel you are capable of being manipulated because of sex. Tell me if I am wrong. Is that the trump card up his sleeve to get his way? Are the pecks to do with this? It is your right to have sex and it should never be used as manipulation although I think even this has been muddied by porn.

Sorry to be so blunt Amber. I am reading between the lines of things you have said. And if I am right it is something you have to be aware of as everything could go out of the window if that is the case. You have thrown down the challenge and intimated you have had enough, implying you will leave if he doesn't sort things. Don't be sabotaged now.

Do you have anough strength to have another try on the basis of his promises to put things right? If he says he wants to change and you say you can't forgive and are not committed to the marriage then that doesn't leave the marriage anywhere. My thought is that if you have laid everything out for him in the letter then the invitation is there for him to change and for you to remain committed while he is trying. Am I making any sense?

Raymond

amberheller

26th February 2010, 02:34 PM

So, despite the fact that my heart is not in this and I have great fears about it I feel obligated to give him a chance.

Raymond

26th February 2010, 06:18 PM

I hope you are feeling that Amber and that it is not something I am putting on you. I know you have given him a chance before and he has failed, but your letter was quite powerful and to back that up you need to let him have a chance to get it. If he doesn't get it in spite of this then you have to do what you have to do. Make it be a real chance though however difficult you find it. Try and encourage when he gets it right as that is quite powerful from a woman to a man. I really hope something comes out of this and am praying to that end.

Raymond

amberheller

27th February 2010, 12:37 AM

I am feeling that I am obligated to try... i am not sure where that obligation comes from, but I will do my best to be a big enough person to really try although he wants to just move forward and I am having a hard time dealing with all that has transpired over the past 11 years. I have a lot of hurt and pain and it is going to be very hard to just put it all aside and look ahead... especially because I am afraid of it happening again. I take solace in the fact that I will give it my best and if he doesn't follow through that I will have the strength to move fore ward, because trying is definitely harder than giving up.

I am feeling very stressed about this and I think it is because part of me is revolting the idea of giving him another shot although I feel that is the path I am headed down.

I need advice. How do I move forward in a marriage with a man that I do not love? He is in effect a stranger and I am a stranger to him... he claims to know me, but does not.

Help.

Raymond

27th February 2010, 09:46 AM

Everything leads to giving it another shot Amber. If you were to end the marriage now would you have the peace you will have if you seriously gave it another chance in view of his response to the letter? This is what you were dreading before. The fact that he would respond and that you were not up to trying again. I said then, if I remember rightly, that writing the letter goes with giving him another chance, otherwise you might just as well have ended it now without saying anything.

I think you have to try even if it is just the one more time. It will be clear to you up the road if he is going to stay faithful or not, particularly in this mental adultery stuff. How any marriage can prosper with that going on I don't know. I know there are other issues as well, but scripturally sexual immorality is a grounds for divorce. Personally I include certain stages of pornography in that, but you have to make your own judgement on that.

I am very aware how hard it is for you Amber. You said that God gave you the strength to write the letter and as I said that goes with another chance. He will respond or not but it has to be a real chance with commitment and forgiveness of the past from you.

We are with you in this Amber as are your other counsellors you have mentioned. Share with those in your church as well so that they can pray also.

The scripture says in the multitude of counsellors purposes are established so you are on good grounds. Nobody wants you to suffer needlessly and lock you into something that is going nowhere but I think what you have decided to do is the right thing and I pray that God strengthens you in it.

God bless for now

Raymond

amberheller

28th February 2010, 03:59 PM

Update... He has been being nice, and helpful and kind... I see him struggling not to "fly off the handle" but he has been controlling it. I am such a sucker. or maybe not... you tell me what you think.

He came home last night, being helpful decided to accompany me to go to the stores for household groceries and supplies (drive- just under an hour). He drove over in the dusk -his choice after driving from work just previous to this. I did NOT ask him to join me, he volunteered. He could not handle the stress of the kids talking during the drive... kept telling me to shut them up... I tried nicely the first time to tell him that kids do not have mute or off buttons and that I can do what I can... but they were making happy noises not screaming and that he may just have to deal with it. I suggested that he try to learn to block out the happy noises and just pay attention to the angry, sad, or distress sounds...

So we went shopping... not a bad time... he was a bit critical and bossy, but I could handle that. finally we went out to dinner. Not a bad time and he reportedly felt rejuvenated by the meal and declined my offer to drive home... that he feels better driving home fatigued and distracted then letting anyone else drive... even tho I pointed out that the kids do not distract me from driving. So he drove home... about 45 minutes... playing music (kids like music) and whenever they would make a sound he would turn the music off and say that he cant concentrate with the music on when they say things. So kids make happy sounds... he turns music off... kids make unhappy sounds... I calm them down, turn on music... and over and over and over again.

Get home... I rush in get the kids settled and in bed... he begins unloading the truck... aggressively must have been cuz all the boxes of food were either mangled or busted... hes complaining about having to do everything for other people that "I never have time to get my own **** done because im always doing your ****"... and I have to remind him that the kids are in bed... he is getting louder...

So kids in bed groceries on the front porch from the truck... I bring them in the rest of the way and put them all away... bumped and busted as they are... and he proceeds to take 40 minutes paint stripping and starting to clean off his summer wheels for his car... (an essential task for sure...:rolleyes:) and comes in even more grumpy because now it is later... he wasted his time with the shopping and now he is frustrated because he wanted to take a shower... I told him to go ahead and take a shower... he complained that he has to get up early, his job is very physical, and that MEN have needs and that I am not helping him out at all. I was not in the mood to get into a yelling match so I let it slide although I wanted to point out that MY needs are NEVER met... NEVER. For reference... I gave him the letter 6 days ago on monday evening... so not even a week has passed... I started my monthly cycle late on the day of that letter and each day he has pestered me asking me if I have finished so that we can have sex... Like I have ANY control over that aspect of my body... So he is getting angry with me because now all of a sudden he has interest in me??? HA

So he takes a shower... which usually means he wants something from me... and I stayed up tho I was VERY tired. Finally went to bed together... secretly I had vowed to myself not to be used for oral sex... maybe that was wrong of me, but if he had payed me any attention rather than just expecting me to just work at him because he deserved it, I would have willingly complied. Instead he just layed there... silent unless complaining that it is too late that I didn't plan things out right and that he has needs too but if everything has to be about me than so be it... and not to worry about him that he will be fine and that he will just go to sleep and get up and go to work and come home and do it all over again. That he has demands for our relationship too but don't worry about that. I was VERY tired and fatigued and began to fall to sleep as he drank a beer that he asked me to go get from the fridge because all of a sudden he was not tired... and I wasn't doing anything to HELP him sleep better.

So he drank his beer sitting up in bed and I was losing my grip on wakefulness... however frequently the bed would bounce, or he would make a sound... like 15 times or more over the time period between 1145 and 1 45 am. Finally after one exceedingly large bounce and loud noise I realized that the lights were on and that he was still sitting up and that he was trying to wake me up for the past 2 hours. I said are you ok? what time is it... (im very groggy-didn't quite get it yet) why are you still up? he said oh for some reason im just not tired... but ill just get up in 4 hours and go to work... you don't help me. Maybe I will just stay home tomorrow. So now he is pretty much telling me that because I wont help him that he will stay home... I don't want him home especially not grumpy and angry and tired... so I offer to HELP him... he then takes on the attitude of a Martyr and tells me no that he will be fine. Not to worry about him to go to sleep and get some rest. So I tried to convince him to let me help... i know i am stupid, but I didn't want him home like this. He refused over and over again telling me to go to sleep... told me that he just needs to get used to not being first that he really must accept being 3rd 4th or 5th in line and be happy with it... I tried to explain that if he had been at all interested in having a team activity then I would have been interested... but he countered that YOU don't like to get revved up when you have your period because you cant do anything about it so I'm not going to touch you... I replied that im the past I didn't want to get revved up when I have my period because even when it was over I still wouldn't get any relief so I didn't want to be even more frustrated, but if it is really going to be different then I would really prefer to interact with you and not just perform for you like it were a chore. I told him that just because we were not having sex didn't mean that it couldn't be an intimate experience. I told him that it is horrible for me because my sex drive is so high, that I am horny all the time and that my period isn't fun for me either. He said that he is sure it is not with all the cramps and bleeding, and that he will not force me to do something that I don't want to do and to please go to sleep and get some rest... So... finally he turned the light off and laid down in bed... I took about 30 minutes rubbing his head and neck trying to help him relax and fell asleep 2x during that and woke up to restart... trying to help him.

So 3.5 hours later I wake up to his alarm and he snoozes it like 10 times... but I cant sleep after it goes off... so I just toss and turn for about an hour until our daughter comes in the bedroom. Got up to deal with mommy stuff found that my eyes were all messed up and that I was nauseous... YAY I have a MIGRAINE!!!! Lets celebrate this momentous occasion that my ass husband caused by being a jerk and keeping me up all night because he is selfish. His overall tone and attitude during this whole thing was very cold, matter of fact, and quite monotone.

So what now... do I just take his as a set back... in a process of forward progress... or what... I mean it has not even been a week... you would think that his behavior could be good for a little bit longer than a week... Im REALLY angry that he made me get a migraine... I am REALLY angry that he tried to force me to give him oral sex again... I don't know what to think here... I don't know what to do ... he woke up and I told him the time... our daughter came in and I asked him what he planned on doing (going to work or not) and he replied that he is busy feeling sorry for himself and when he is done that he will get up.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GOD HELP ME! I am not strong enough without you to handle this.

amberheller

28th February 2010, 11:20 PM

I am so angry right now... I am going to snap out of this despondent crap and confront him tonight... I had hoped for some response here today, but I understand that I am not the only person with a life. Usually I am quite good at being selfless... considering the other people around me first. NOT TODAY. Today I am feeling selfish and need to let him see that I guess. I don't want to be around him, I don't want to talk to him, I don't want to even think of him... too bad he is tangled into every aspect of my life today right down to my pounding head. So right or wrong I am going to confront him and I may throw out the idea of a separation... I don't know what I will do yet... but I cant work on a relationship from the point of a level playing field when I feel that I am under a mountain of hurt and pain. So I need some time to work through some of that... to see if I can move forward and fall back in love with him. Him doing things like my last post make it about impossible for me to feel anything but revulsion at the thought of being around him. (Me not saying that I love him back is starting to irritate him... even though im not trying to do it intentionally-I just refuse to say things that I don't feel).

So what now... I don't know... but writing it out seems to help even when I don't have responses. I just know that I am not happy... and that I am not going to do THIS.

Amber

Raymond

1st March 2010, 12:01 PM

I have read your posts yesterday Amber and prayed for you.

Basically you seem annoyed at his selfish behaviour and there seems to be sexual problems as he doesn't consider your needs as husbands should. Sex should be a joint experience and not as onesided as it appears to be from what you have said. I think some of this may be coming from the porn which feeds lust instead of the sex being part of the relationship you have together.

However I can't speak to him on here only you. I think it's going to be a long haul with him but I think you can do it with God's strength.

What I got when I prayed is that you should start from scratch and encourage any good you see. I know this isn't easy thing as it is much easier to reproach or criticise. Lets face it something drastic needs to happen here and it has to start with you. You are not going to be able to do it in your own strength but if you can find ways to start it I think you could turn things around long term. I'm not talking about flattery that won't help him or you at all. I'm talking about encouraging the good so that it grows. There must be something good in him I would think otherwise you would not have married him. I believe a woman has a power to work at it even when the man doesn't and can actually change a man's behaviour not by cticism but by encouragment. While you have got him committed you want to try and create some good from it. If he is taking baby steps encourage him. You have a power in your tongue to create good and change him so long as he is faithful to you as best he can be. Don't underestimate the power you have as a woman to that no matter how small it starts from.

I know this is not what you wanted to hear but unless something good happens here nothing is going to change. You can do that by choosing to. I know you feel like slapping him round the head but that will not change anything. If you are going to give it a go then you are going to have to give it a go.

Have a think about it. We are talking about drastic measures here. I think a seperation would only procrastinate matters.

Raymond

amberheller

1st March 2010, 02:50 PM

I decided to not go the separation route, because with mt feelings right now and how tenuous they are I know that it would just be one stop on the way to divorce. I got really upset yesterday about half an hour b4 he got home and called him to talk to him... I tend to lose my nerve in person with him. I got his voice mail and left a message saying that I needed him to get home and take the kids because I couldn't take it anymore today and I needed to get out for a bit. I further included the reasons for my stress... being the migraine that I got from the stress and messed up sleep from our oh so fun night before, the kids behavior because I haven't been as active with them as normal, and the stress from what I am going through with him right now...

He called me back and suggested that I go and see a movie that I had been wanting to see, but the time frame with feeding the kids dinner did not allow me to do that. He instead helped me pick up from the day a little bit and helped me to keep the kids in line a bit. Because he wanted me to go to bed with him, he began to get irate when our son got up from bed. I tried to explain to him that I had tried to put him down early and that it obviously didn't work and that he would have to deal with it. By the time I got in bed he was asleep or mostly asleep and didn't say anything to me.

He got me up in the morning to help put his watch back together... and he was nice. As he walked out the door he said thank you for forgiving me... I made a noncommittal sound and he said whats that supposed to mean... I said its just taking me a while thats all... and he left...

He called me later and suggested that I make a decision if I want to go see the movie tomorrow and he will watch the kids, or if I want to go skiing... I told him that I would think about it, but that if we could ski another day that I would be leaning towards the movie.

He said that he will continue doing what he can, but that not knowing that i am working towards the same goals are limiting him. I explained to him that it is my intent to move forward, that aspect is not in question. The issue that I am having is processing and letting go of all the past hurts... it has taken a while to accrue them and will take a while to let them go... Also it is hard for me to rebuild feelings, emotion, love for him while this is so new... and that it took a long time for those to erode and will take time for them to build again. He indicated that he understood this, but additionally he feels that the only way for us to have a chance is for me to wipe the slate clean... I told him that I am working on it.

I think I need to include him in a few of my processing times... just so he can understand that if he screws up this time what he will be doing to me, what road he will be forcing me to go down again... he may need to see the pain that I am in to comprehend just what power he has over me as his wife... maybe that will help him to stay on track... I will think about that one...

thanks again everyone!
Amber

Raymond

1st March 2010, 06:48 PM

Doesn't sound too bad to me Amber. Hopefully you can move forward. Another chance does mean forgiveness even though you find it hard. We need forgiveness all the time with God but that means we forgive others who have hurt us. It doesn't mean we can't sort things out. Marriage can't flourish without forgiveness. That is part of the package.

He has read your letter and has thanked you for forgiving him. That can't be bad. It doesn't sound like someone who wants to carry on doing bad things. If he did he wouldn't worry about your forgiveness. So take it as a positive and try and encourage him when he gets it right. You could thank him for trying to be considerate about the movie? Your encouragement will go a long way.

You are very blessed to have ski-ing so near. I have to fly to the Alps to do that.

Raymond