My wife does not love me anymore

[maastricht]

After being together for 16 years (12 yrs of marriage), my wife had to do what she describes as "the toughest thing she ever had to do".... and tell me that she is not "in love" with me ....and perhaps she never has been!!

There is no other man .... no drugs, no abuse in our relationship. In fact, we seldom had serious arguments (at least prior to this news). We always discussed our differences. We are financially stable .... able to send our children (1st & 2nd grade) to private...all on my salary. My wife has been at home since our first child's birth.

My wife tells me that I am a great Dad, excellent provider, always think family-first, and that I have always "put her on a pedestal". So, why am I fighting to save my marriage!!?? She says something is missing ..... there is an emotional disconnect.

In recounting her life, she feels that she has never had the opportunity to "develop" and "be herself". We met when she was 21 and me, 29. Her homelife was in turmoil (parents divorcing, brother on drugs). Upon meeting me, she left home ....transferred jobs and moved to my city (300 miles away)..... and became part of my life and environment.

When I asked her recently, why did she marry me ....her answer was "what choice did I have". I pointed out that we dated/lived together for 4 years before marrying. There was no shotgun to her head.

Granted, my wife did not have a good childhood. There was very little love or nurturing in her youth. She says her love for me like that for a father or brother.

What hurts the most is .... she refuses to state that she wants to save our marriage. Just last week...I joined my wife at her weekly therapist session. I asked my wife what does she want .... she said I don't know. But she has resigned herself to the fact that she will not be able to love me as a wife should love her husband.

My wife is in great pain because she is causing me great pain .... and knows that she will be destroying our family .... for no good reason. I know she feels very alone because no one is on her side...even her therapist.

I am still very confused.

Signed: WTD

[jools]

Dear Maastricht,
I'm no expert in these matters but felt I had to reply as no one else has yet. You'll get loads of support from this site, and some really good advice. It makes you realise that you're not alone.
It seems to me that whatever your wife is going through the fact that no one sees her side (even her therapist) could just push her further away. I posted a web address on Purplecaz's thread last night because I found the advice so useful (Stopyourdivorce.com). You don't even have to buy the E-book to access some information that could start helping you today. It has eased my situation no end, though only time can tell whether it will bring us completely back together. I've held off going to relate or any other therapists as I've read so much about how little it helps (but that's just my opinion). It only seems to really help if both people are committed to making the relationship work. Although I don't know the reason for your wife seeing a therapist.
You must be going through hell at the moment, but hang in there and keep checking this site because there's some really good advice and support that people will send you.
Love Jools.
________
Lamborghini Jarama (http://www.lamborghini-tech.com/wiki/Lamborghini_Jarama)

[Concerned Reader]

Dear Maastrict

I'm afraid this is a matter of sitting tight and waiting for your W to come to terms with her approaching birthday and what she has chosen to do with her life.

You mention that the therapist does not appear to be 'on your wife's side' but that is exactly the correct professional approach for such situations. The therapist must not do anything which influences your W one way or another. Their job is just to guide your W to an understanding, based on such facts as can be gathered, as to why she chose to be married and what she might choose to do next.

As you pointed out, your W was not forced in to marriage. She had free agency, although just at the moment she is trying to argue that events obliged her to do it. Eventually, she will have to come to terms with the idea that she - not you and not the therapist - is responsible for what she chose in the past and for what she chooses to do in the future.

For the moment she is poised, realizing that she had better decide nothing at all until she has worked out what she can or cannot live with. This is why she isn't saying she wants out, nor is she willing to commit to the marriage. (This sounds stupid - but try not to take it personally. It is not really about you, but about what a thirty-something does as the children grow.)

Since you have earned well, presumably you have worked hard and, I hope, are experiencing a level of professional success. It may be that you think you have reached a comfortable level, or it might be that you reckon you can push a bit further for a few more years in your industry. Your W, however, has done the baby-raising part and all the children will get now is older and more self-sufficient. I'm not sure of the ages from your description, but your W has had a few years out of the job market now and may be wondering if she will ever be able to get back in - or at what level.

In short - what is she going to do with the rest of her life?

Now, I hold deeply unfashionable beliefs such as that it is unreasonable to treat other people as if they were just a means to one's own fulfilment, so I would never say you have to wait around indefinitely for your W to make her mind up. You are not a genii in a bottle, unstoppered only when it suits her to have you grant her wish for financial security or emotional support. On the other hand, since you love her and you have been together a long time, it is reasonable to suggest you let this run for six months, a year, and see if she can get her life in perspective.

I'm sorry that it seems to involve so much hanging around and therapy, but just go with it and keep making the point that your W had - and has - free agency, but that she has to accept what follows from her decisions.

My best wishes to you.

[London]

What hurts the most is .... she refuses to state that she wants to save our marriage. Just last week...I joined my wife at her weekly therapist session. I asked my wife what does she want .... she said I don't know. But she has resigned herself to the fact that she will not be able to love me as a wife should love her husband.

"Resigned" herself?

My wife is in great pain because she is causing me great pain .... and knows that she will be destroying our family .... for no good reason. I know she feels very alone because no one is on her side...even her therapist.

maastricht - the above line is incredibly judgemental on your part and places an enormous amount of undue pressure on your wife. Your wife is in pain because she knows she is hurting you by staying in a marriage while she does not love you. She is in pain becuase the ramifications of such an admission could lead to major upheaval and major changes that will affect the kids and a sense of security of all concerned. Yet, the best you can do is say she "is
destroying" your family "for no good reason"! Her reasons are actually very good - she knows deep down that she is NOT in love with you and perhaps never was. That was a huge admission on her part to you yet you don't seem to understand that that is what is causing her pain.

I am sorry for being blunt and in your face, but what i read from you suggests that you may not care about "love" in the marriage or about your wife - only yourself and what you want. Your wife is going to therapy to help her understand if this is just a "phase" or if it has to do with the difficulties she had prior to your marriage. In other words, are her past issues affecting her decision now, or did those issues (and not love) push her into marrying you for the wrong reasons.

The last line in your post is something you should re-read and re-consider - "I know she feels very alone because no one is on her side...even her therapist" By the sounds of it, she doesn't even have you on her side giving her support. If you really want her to be able to work through all these issues (past and present) - you will need to be much more supportive and understanding of her pysche.

[Concerned Reader]

Dear London

Can Maastricht really be said to be said to lack love when he has kept his promises, paid for his family, worked, and seems prepared to sit through what ever his wife needs to do? I can't know day-to-day how responsibility is divided up in that marriage, but even Mrs Maastricht seems to be giving him a character reference.

I ought to declare an interest here. Old sexism deprived women of the right to property and self-determination on the grounds that they were emotional chaps, more like permanent children. A sensible, sensitive man wouldn't really expect his W to adopt a consistent emotional point of view because the little women, bless 'em, just weren't up to it.

Obviously, I'll want to challenge any point of view which, however well-intended, can be swung round to show that women remain essentially unstable and either in sexual thrall, at the mercy of their star-signs, or the paralysed captive of a poor relationship with their parents. It is just too close to saying they can't vote, hold property, sign their own consent forms or claim parentage of their children, because their gender defines them as unfit. Relieving a person of the responsibility for their decisions seems humane, but it actually can be used to separate them from full-status as a person.

Therefore I am very unwilling to accept arguments which say that, grown women of 25, with four years of experience of being a couple was incapable of giving informed consent to marriage or that she didn't know what she was promising.

There can be reasons not to keep a promise, but Mrs Maastrict is in exactly the position where she doesn't have those reasons. There isn't the abuse which indicates a high risk to the children; she has willingly accepted the benefits of the marriage for twelve long years and those benefits are considerable. She has even involved children it it, but she had plenty of time before they came and could, presumably, have said 'I am sorry about this...'

I think that what is happening now is that she is bright enough to be in pain because, if she did marry him under false pretences, then he has every right to be angry and judgemental. It is not her time which has been wasted; it is his. He gave her the real thing, she paid him in false coin. However, he doesn't seem judgemental to me; rather grief stricken.

There is also a fundamental disagreement about terms here. Maastricht and I tend to see love as a verb; the thing you promise to do and then get on with it. No doubt, if his love needs to be demonstrated more, then he will do what ever his W requests.

You wrote: "Her reasons are actually very good - she knows deep down that she is NOT in love with you and perhaps never was." I agree that it must have cost her dearly to make the admission because they undermines her position as a rational and responsible adult. However, her reasons are objectively poor ones for dissolving a family. Sadly, there can be good reasons for doing this and we can all spot the objective criteria; the adultery, the abuse, the unspecified cheating. None of that exists in this case.

Her reasons are all interior and apparently liable to change, sometimes accompanied by a re-writing of personal history. Putting the emphasis on her interior reasons, the subjective ones, opens up the idea that she isn't a fully competent adult, but someone who simply does not know her own mind and is liable to say whatever suits her to get whatever benefit she needs at the time - and has done for at least the last 12 years. And Maastricht will want to thump me for saying nasty things about the W he loves.

So I tend to concentrate on the exterior behaviour and let the heart keep its secrets. She contracted to the marriage and Mr M kept his side. Up until now, so did she, and it gave everyone a nice life. In an ideal world I hope they will love one another, but no, I don't believe that is strictly necessary. The idea of romantic lurve which validates the whole marriage strikes me as flimsy; plenty of cultures such as Judaism have much better rates of marriage maintenance and take the view that love is that which grows from behaving lovingly and keeping faith.

I repeat; do mostly nothing is the best option for the next few months. Mr M is intepretting this a little too much as if it is solely about him and the family. That is natural, but his W wants to ask questions about the world and her place in it, so let her do those explorations. Think Wizard of Oz. Dorothy needs to go on a journey to find the Wizard, and her friends are looking for a variety of facets they lack. What they find, once the wizard shows them how to look, is themselves. All except for Dorothy who just wants to go home. Glenda the Good Witch appears and tells her that all she has to do is click her heels together three times and repeat 'there's no place like home'. Glenda explains that she could always have gone home, but she wouldn't have believed the truth of that statement.

I think Mrs M will make a similar journey.

[London]

Therefore I am very unwilling to accept arguments which say that, grown women of 25, with four years of experience of being a couple was incapable of giving informed consent to marriage or that she didn't know what she was promising.

CR - I am in no way trying to diminish Mrs M's capacity to have made a willing decision in marrying M. Rather, what I am suggesting is that she made a choice and has the right to back-out of it for whatever reason. Marriage isn't a commercial/social contract as you seem to suggest quite often - its an emotional contract. Ideally the "contract" is based on love and not money or "security". Based on what M has suggested in his post, it seems very plausible that Mrs M based her decision on the latter two rather than love.

It seems to me that you concentrate on what M has given her in terms of fulfilling a commercial contract - "paid for his family, worked,". As for the claims that he is willing to sit through whatever she wants - I have read no evidence to suggest that whatsoever. All i have read is what he wants and how crazy she must be for wantingout becuase she realises that marriage is based on love and that she has none for him and never had.


There isn't the abuse which indicates a high risk to the children; she has willingly accepted the benefits of the marriage for twelve long years and those benefits are considerable. She has even involved children it it, but she had plenty of time before they came and could, presumably, have said 'I am sorry about this...'



She involved children? What?

In case you forgot, it takes two to make children. Yes, she went along with it willingly and beget two wonderful children. So what? Does that still bind her to him in marriage? Why should it? If she wants out becuase she doesn't love him, why cant't she be given that right? Why are you so keen on protecting the patriarchial hegemony?

You will only allow dissolving a marriage on "visible" wrongs:

Sadly, there can be good reasons for doing this and we can all spot the objective criteria; the adultery, the abuse, the unspecified cheating. None of that exists in this case.

Why is the absence of love not enough for to get out? You claim she paid him in false coin while he "is the real thing" - what evidence do you have of that? Why do you think she had to come out and tell him that she no longer loves and never did? Of course, we are not getting the whole truth here. I would rather err on the side of the woman here and read between the lines - they tell me more than what M has told us.


Putting the emphasis on her interior reasons, the subjective ones, opens up the idea that she isn't a fully competent adult, but someone who simply does not know her own mind and is liable to say whatever suits her to get whatever benefit she needs at the time - and has done for at least the last 12 years.


I disagree. Placing the emphasis on the external only reifies the notion that she is a commodity - "what you see is what you get." The internal elements are what define human beings - the ability to feel and think. Denying that denies anyone their humanity. Which is what you are doing while claiming not to.

So I tend to concentrate on the exterior behaviour and let the heart keep its secrets.

But that is what makes people human. Remove the heart and all you have is an android - the Tin man from the Wizard of Oz!

She contracted to the marriage and Mr M kept his side. Up until now, so did she, and it gave everyone a nice life.

Yes - it gave everyone a nice life - a fake one based only on convenience. Look, if thats what you want in a marriage then I won't stop you from it. But I disagree with marriage being a commercial contract when humans have a choice to choose even after making a decision.


In an ideal world I hope they will love one another, but no, I don't believe that is strictly necessary.


Then what is a marriage to you but a commercial contract based on the mutual exchange of services and favours? Where is love here?


The idea of romantic lurve which validates the whole marriage strikes me as flimsy; plenty of cultures such as Judaism have much better rates of marriage maintenance and take the view that love is that which grows from behaving lovingly and keeping faith.



Better rates? Where are you looking? Most of those marriages "exist" because women do not have the right to speak their hearts or their minds. They are forced to endure and stay in a relationship whether they like it or not becuase their parents or society views the commercial social contract as sancrosanct over and above what the individual desires.

CR - Obviously we have very different views of marriage and of basic emotional "rights". Its odd that while you seem to want to champioin the cause of women to decide you fall into the trap of reaffirming the male social contract version of marriage by nullyfying the every element that make people humans - that is the ability to feel and to choose.

I have not read anything in M's account above that seems to suggest he is willing to fundamentally understand the issues his wife is going through. All i have read is what he wants and how delusional she is. I happen to disagree with that approach.

[Waterman]

Why does thjos have to be seen in terms of male versus female concepts of marriage? The situation and analysis would be no different surely if the genderes in the situation were reversed?

I see marriage as a state and attitude of mind as well as an emotion. The state of mind sustains the emotion when it weakens and helps it to recover. People who don't appreciate that their own state of mind does influence their emotions are prey to finding that those emotions have been damaged. When the going gets tough the tough get going, and in marriage terms what this means is that if redundancy, illness, strife of various sorts hit you or your partner then that is the time when, as a partnership, you address them together. If you leave the other party to deal with the issues while you wallow in self pity then you are neglecting the relationship at an intellectual level, and sooner or later you will find that at an emotional level things are not what they should be.

Sure there are people who make the wrong decision right from the outset, and among those there must also be people who knew at the time they were making the wrong decision. For these people perhaps the best decision is to get out although those who knew they were making the wrong marriage decision at the outset are so accomplished at self-kiddology not even they know what they really think.

As for the rest, who were in love but seem no longer to be, I think the right course is indeed to look deeply into their own souls and to put every ounce orf effort they can into making their marriage work, both at an intellectual and emotional level.

[Kate]

Hi

I'd like to add my pennyworth here. At a global level marriage is something two people consent to do before at least two witnesses. It is a commitment to share comfort and support, sexual union and the bringing up of children (if they come along) for life excluding close sexual relationships with others of the opposite sex. It is the start of a new family unit from two existing units. This is the way it was meant to be. If this model is followed there id the possibility of stability and fulfilment for husband, wife and children.



Many see love (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/relbasictopic/loveis/) as simply a feeling. Well it is more than that. We actually choose to love and sometimes our feelings are positive and sometimes they aren't! Sometimes love makes us happy and sometimes it brings profound pain as most parents will agree.



Coming down to the particular, Maastricht, you have to face the realities of your situation whatever we say here. Your wife has convinced herself that she cannot be the person she thinks your wife should be. I suspect that some of the roots of her difficulties stem from her childhood and her difficulty in coping with relationships and the pain and emotional turmoil that they can bring. There may well be things you can do differently to strengthen your relationship together. Research suggests that for stability we need to get rid of our bad habits of communication and for happiness we need to learn positive ways of communicating. There tips on these here (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/relbasictopic/cftcartoon/).



One point that I found helpful recently when I was reading a Christian book called "Marriage, Restoring the vision" was that marriage is a place of grace. What I understand that to mean is that none of us are perfect but that the boundaries/promises made in marriage allow us to work away at those difficulties. It is a place where we can be vulnerable about our fears and self doubts secure in the knowledge that we are loved, valued and accepted warts and all by our marriage partner and that they will not reject us and discard us because they have promised not to. I have found in life that when I know myself to be in this situation, I can face the issues in myself that need sorting and change to relate better both to my family and to others around me.

Kate

[helenrw200]

I agree to a certain extent with Kate, but I do feel that love is not necessarily something you can grow into and people don't always get married for the reasons stated, in an ideal world of course you would love and cherish and stay with your husband/ wife til death, but unfortunately it isn't an ideal world , people change and feelings can change too, and in some circumstances people marry for reasons other than love ( as I did ) and find that they are then trapped by feeling the way they do.

Waterman seems to be very bitter about the whole thing, and I can understand that, but I still feel that there are times when no matter how much you try, you can't keep a marriage together and it becomes necessary to part . I feel that we only get one shot at life and we all need to try to live it in order to be if not happy then at least content and that may mean sometimes we have to live apart from people whom we once thought we could share the rest of our lives with.

I was absolutely sure when I married that although I didn't love my then husband , it would grow, I certainly didn't enter into it lightly thinking that if it didn't work out there was always divorce. I spent a long time in the marriage and that had nothing to do with the children ( who weren't biologically my husband's anyway ) as Waterman seems to assume, nor was it to have a husband to provide for me , I pretty much always worked myself as most wive's do these days. I gave my husband possibly the best years of my life and tried to be a good wife , I stayed with him for 18 years in total, but in the end it just wasn't possible for me to live with him any longer and again it wasn't a whim, nor a decision taken lightly, but a long process that took over 3 years of deep self searching and despair. I refuse to feel selfish as Waterman implies anyone who leaves there H/W should, each case is different and should be treated as such.
Helen

[Waterman]

Not really Helen. I'm assuming you're refering to my post on another thread. That does remain my opinion but it doesn't refer directly to my own circumstances. It's an observation from afar of many other circumstances. My own wife says that she can't say she loves me and she can't say she doesn't love me. She's making a real go of it, but some of the received wisdom she gets from the outside world seems to think that as soon as you tire of a relationship you should pack it in. I've seen comments on here from people who have that attitude and who seem to think that their soon-to-be-ex-partner should just cooperate and be good friends. Whilst it might be true that you can't manufacture feelings, it isn't fair to expect a partner to behave as if nothing has happened when a marriage breaks up either. It is devastating, and I can't help believing that some want another kind of sham relationship ("friendship") to replace the old one so that they can reassure themselves that the devastation wasn't quite as bad as all that.

In your circumstances you said that you didn't marry for love. Well in that case you were probably best off out of it. As far as my comments go it's a case of "if the cap fits then wear it", but I am convinced that in many cases I read of both here and elsewhere, selfishness on the part of the partner wishing to leave the marriage is indeed a major factor, and that those people should have a good look inside themselves. That goes for people both on the brink of separation and also those who are simply unhappy at the time.

Look at it another way. There were times when I struggled to bring myself to say nice things to my wife or to bother with a decent birthday card or wedding anniversary present. Then I'd back off mentally and take an audit of all the great things about her. I'd chase the blues away and I'd try to be in tune with her as much as possible. I refused to let those feelings grow or to neglect the old feelings. I know that that is what she is trying to do for me now too, and that's all that matters. She is making the real effort. Only the people involved know if they've made the effort or whether they're just being callous and selfish, but the effort as I call it is not just a grin and bear it attitude, but something more thoughtful. That's what I mean by love being an attitude of mind as well as an emotion. I reckon that without the right attitude of mind many more relationships would fizzle than do.

Let's assume that there's a group of 10 people, men and women, who have left their marriages out of unhappiness. Of that 10, there will be some like you, who did everything they could to keep the marriage going, and there will be those, hiding among them, who are kidding themselves, who are taking the easy way out and are simply making excuses to themselves and the world about what has really happened. Those people do deserve a little straight talking, and in some cases that is all those people will need to shake them out of their own selfishness and to let them see the wood for the trees.

[helenrw200]

I was actually referring to your post on this thread waterman, I didn't know you had posted on another.

Yes, you're right, being the person who is " left " is devastating , I've been in that position myself, so I do know that. Nevertheless, I appreciated that it was better for him to have been honest with me than to spend more years of deceit with me being aware that something was wrong and waiting for the axe to fall.

Marriage is not a business , it is about feelings and emotions as well as practicalities and day to day living and people make mistakes as I said before and people and feelings change.

I don't think most people - certainly not the ones from personal experience anyway - leave a marriage lightly no matter how they might feel, most work pretty hard to keep it going.

I don't feel it's selfish, when all said and done to ,walk away from a situation that's making you miserable, providing you have given it your best shot . believe it or not it was almost as hard for me as it was for my ex husband when I left. I was leaving behind someone I cared about, you can't fail to care in a relationship that spans almost 20 years . I was also leaving my home, all the security I had and going out into the unknown at the age of 40, having never lived alone since I was born . But as I have said before and will say again, deep down I knew it was the right decision , I wasn't happy, my husband wasn't happy, we had reached a stage of staying together because that's what one does after all those years .

He loved me enough to put up with that, but sadly I ( and he ) knew I didn't.

I guess there will always be - and always has been some people who leave for selfish reasons, but would you really want to live with someone who was as selfish as that for the rest of your life ? I wouldn't.
Helen

[Waterman]

I guess there will always be - and always has been some people who leave for selfish reasons, but would you really want to live with someone who was as selfish as that for the rest of your life ? I wouldn't.
Helen

In the final analysis you are right. But we are all selfish at times without realising it, and there are times when all we need is a reality check to see it for ourselves. By the time the marriage has irretrievably broken down perhaps it's too late but not necessarily before. It's not so much a case of leaving for selfish resons as the living for selfish reasons that leads to the leaving.

Take your own circumstances as outlined here. Please forgive me if I'm being presumtuous or have misunderstood anything. It seems as though the behaviour you spoke of might harm your relationship, something neither of you wants. It seems as though the chap needs a kick up the pants so he can see the situation more clearly and how selfish he is being. That might be all he needs, some straight talking so that he can face up to his actions, focus more on your needs and less on his own. There's sense in the old saying that there's more pleasure in giving than in receiving yet lots of us just don't appreciate that until it's too late. But is he getting that kick up the pants? It needs to come from the world at large rather than you, but maybe he simply self-justifies his actions so that he doesn't have to face the consequences and work at the problem.

If someone like that stays selfish then yes maybe the other one is better off without them but it's such a shame because sometimes all we need is a little introspection. I think your case is very black and white, but suppose the behaviour was somewhat different and there was more room for accomodation on the other's part? What then? That's what I'm talking about, getting a sense of perspective.

My cousin remarried a couple of years ago and it was strange that the chap she married had been divorced by his wife because she'd fallen out of love with him, but towards the end she wanted a reconciliation and was both desperate and jealous at the same time, feeling that she'd made a big mistake by not understanding her true feelings. Whatever it was that had driven her was more an internal thing than anything to do with her husband but by the time she realised that it was too late.

[squeeky]

I understand your wife's point of view. For whatever reason she is not happy. You don't seem to fill something that she needs. Is it sex? Is it adventure? Is it stimulation? Is it personal accomplishment? Is it recognition? Is it freedom?

I am in a very similar situation as your wife. I told my wife that I didn't love her and that I wanted to separate to find out if I would be happier without her. I don't know how it will end but the fact that I could talk about it helped. I'm still in the relationship and we're working to make it better. I think that I was being selfish. But on the other hand, I would really like to see what it would be like without her. It's hard not to think about how things might have been different. For now though, I am working through it to see if I put my wife's needs before my own if I won't find the love and the connection that I seek. I don't know if the "connection" I am after is real or imagined but right now I'm trying to be a better husband and father.

If your wife doesn't excercise, you should encourage her to join a bicyling club or a running club. She would increase her satisfaction as she accomplishes personal goals.

Good luck!

[maastricht]

WOW......I did not expect such a response.

Having just returned from a business trip, it will take some time to digest the preceding responses.

But, I was intrigued by LONDON's remarks ...... let me say that I consider my wife ...my best friend, my lover. I have been her biggest fan and admire her good qualities (which she has many). Since I met her, she has had self-confidence problems ..... definitely brought on by her parents (especially her mother). So LONDON, I always have been very supportive .... and that's a serious concern of mine......at the time where I believe my wife should "lean on me"...she does not want to.

Lastly LONDON, you seem to shrug off the "children effect". You mentioned the presence of children should not bind anyone to a marriage ..... well, I disagree. Once a couple have children, there is a responsibility / committment which supercedes one's personal desires. I would do anything for my wife & children. For now, I cannot envision our children being involved in a separation .... I just hope my wife feels the same.

[Alexis]

I would just like to say that people who get married without being inlove or lving their partner just be absolutly mad. For me my wedding day was amazing, it brought home the true meaning of life to me, spending it with the person who is my best friend, soulmate, and lover. Someone I had the upmost respect for and admiration.

To get married without love is ridiculous, then someone will get hurt and most times do.

ALexis

[Alexis]

I would just like to say that people who get married without being inlove or loving their partner just be absolutly mad. For me my wedding day was amazing, it brought home the true meaning of life to me, spending it with the person who is my best friend, soulmate, and lover. Someone I had the upmost respect for and admiration.

To get married without love is ridiculous, then someone will get hurt and most times do.

Alexis

[London]

Lastly LONDON, you seem to shrug off the "children effect". You mentioned the presence of children should not bind anyone to a marriage ..... well, I disagree. Once a couple have children, there is a responsibility / committment which supercedes one's personal desires. I would do anything for my wife & children. For now, I cannot envision our children being involved in a separation .... I just hope my wife feels the same.

Actually I am NOT shrugging off the "children effect". I think the children should come first. I am sure you love your children very much. But again, your post above sounds like you would hold the children against your wife to prevent her from leaving becuase you believe in the "nuclear family concept". But I believe you are doing your children greater harm by letting them see their parents not in love. Sure, they'll have a roof over their head and will be fed and will get to go to the grocery store with mom and dad. But they'll know mummy and daddy don't love each other - and that my friend is robbing the children of one of the most important aspects of the nuclear family - how to love your partner! They'll grow with the belief that love is not really necessary and needed in a marriage.

Children are incredibly perceptive and much stronger than we give them credit for. Separation is definitely hard on all parties involved, but you cannot and should not be using guilt as a glue. Nor should you be using children as the adhesive that holds your wife to you.

let me say that I consider my wife ...my best friend, my lover. I have been her biggest fan and admire her good qualities (which she has many). Since I met her, she has had self-confidence problems ..... definitely brought on by her parents (especially her mother). So LONDON, I always have been very supportive .... and that's a serious concern of mine......at the time where I believe my wife should "lean on me"...she does not want to.


Its good to hear that you consider your wife your best friend. But again from your post, it doesn't seem like the reverse works.

Your further clarification about your W's self-esteem issues raise another intersting point. Is it possible your W agreed to marry you because at the time you boosted her self-confidence which over-powered her mother's seeming "abuse" rather than becuase she loved *you* (rather, she loved how the attention made her feel)? And now, since she's had time to think all the issues through its dawning on her that despite the children, she never loved you? That may explain why your wife no longer wants to "lean on you".

[Been-There-Before]

Hello Maastricht,

It sounds to me like your wife is feeling like her needs are not being met by you because you do not completely "understand" who she really is. I am willing to bet that she does not even really know who she is herself. If she came from a troubled childhood, from what it sounds like, her mother has put her down in the past instead of being supporting and encouraging. She might have been told by so many people that she needs to act or be a certain way that she actually believed it.

It is a difficult thing to be married to somone who has had a troubled childhood. In fact, it's even tougher when both of you come from (completely opposite) ways of living in a family that was NOT supportive or caring at all. This was the case for me and my wife. We are complete opposites and have been married now for 30 years. But 27 of those years were complete hell because we did not understand each other.

Your wife needs to understand why she is the way she is today. And only when she realizes that her troubled childhood was NOT her fault and that she did NOT 'ask' to be placed in that difficult homelife setting, will she begin to overcome those difficult issues from the past.

So in my opinion, you need to find out exactly why she is not happy in your marriage together. I wrote an article called the Secret Path to Divorce that describes the 'path' that ALL couples take when they go from "wedded bliss" to what I call, "the point of no return." In the article I talk about how couples enter a marriage with Ultimate Expectations which are often never even discussed, but assumed by both husband and wife.

It explains how to find where you are on this "path" and if you are on your way toward divorce, how to GET OFF and STAY OFF this "downward spiral" before it becomes too late to save your marriage.

If you'd like a copy of it, I will send it to you. I've found that it helps many couples and really opens their eyes to what is REALLY going on in their marriage. I also include literally a 'map' so you can visually see where you are and follow along while reading the article.

Just send me an email if you're interested in getting a free copy.
kbilotta@charter.net

Good luck,

Larry

[helenrw200]

Waterman

QUOTE
My cousin remarried a couple of years ago and it was strange that the chap she married had been divorced by his wife because she'd fallen out of love with him, but towards the end she wanted a reconciliation and was both desperate and jealous at the same time, feeling that she'd made a big mistake by not understanding her true feelings.

There is a simple explanation for this though, I went through a similar thing myself when my ex husband started seeing a new g/f and then moved in with her . All of a sudden I found myself feeling jealous and for a while I thought maybe I'd been wrong and I did love him after all , on deeper introspection though I soon realised that it wasn't that I loved him, it was jealousy of the fact he COULD have a new relationship and be happy, when he had spent 18 years telling me he couldn't live without me ! Once I came to terms with this , the feelings of jealousy went, and I now wish them both the happiness they deserve.
QUOTE
Take your own circumstances as outlined here. Please forgive me if I'm being presumtuous or have misunderstood anything. It seems as though the behaviour you spoke of might harm your relationship, something neither of you wants. It seems as though the chap needs a kick up the pants so he can see the situation more clearly and how selfish he is being.

You're right, my present b/f's behaviour is something that if it continues will ultimately end our relationship, I'm not so sure though that you can draw a conclusion from that , that HE doesn't want the relationship to end, in fact he can't see the harm in it and seems quite amazed that I would consider what he's done as infidelity. Try as I might I can't get him to see that from my point of view he already has been unfaithful, by his actions.Worse than this though is the lack of trust I now feel for him whilst still loving him, it's very complicated and does not exactly make for an easy life for either of us.

You said before that your wife cannot say with any certainty that she loves you or that she doesn't love you, in my experience this means she can't. It is purely from my experience though and I could be wrong, only you know her, I don't, but I tried to convince myself that I loved my ex, but I knew I didn't, and when I met my present b/f I knew that I did love him, there was no room of maybe's.

Whilst it is perfectly true that we are all capable of selfishness, if a partner is capable of being selfish to the point you raised about leaving once the children are grown and she / he no longer needs the security and comfort of a marriage to rely on, then that was the scenario I was questioning about whether you would want them to stay ? I'm not sure I could live with someone who would clearly ( for whatever reasons , selfish or not ) rather be somewhere or with someone else .
Helen

[explorer]

Well I can't say I am an expert. But I have had two friends told teh exact same thing by their wives. And I am sorry to say that both found out later on that their wives had indeed been having "emotional" affairs with other men and that attention is what prompted them to tell there husbands they no longer were in love with them. In actuality they had just found someone new that they deemed better. Not saying your wife has done teh same thing but if my wife told me that my first guess would be there was another man somewhere filling her head with junk.

[maastricht]

LONDON and others, I am interested in some feedback.

Continuing our situation ....... The other day my wife said to me "perhaps we would be better off just being friends".

During this same conversation, she asked me what we should do ...... my response was not very supportive. I told her that she has to make a decision. Over the past year, my wife has clearly stated that it was her problem .... that I cannot do anything about it ..... did not want my help ..... she had to be true to her feelings (or lack of them for me) .... had to understand the basis for her feelings, etc..etc.. ......... AND NOW, she ask me what are WE going to do?

It seems that she wants me now to take some control of the situation ..... and (once again) make the tough decision. I simply said no. I followed by saying I was not ready to end our marriage .... I feel that we have not exhausted all our options. Was my response wrong?

Telling her that I still love her. Telling her that I am not going to give up on her. Understand that I am a detailed / logical person ..... that is my nature. I am a successful corporate businessman with a science degree. In this case, this is probably the one aspect of my person that drives my wife crazy ..... seems to be driving her away from me even more.

[maastricht]

Lastly, I forgot to say ..... when my wife asked "what are we going to do?" I replied in the way a logical, fact-oriented person could respond ..... I asked what you do want to do?

Without knowing my role or how to act (except from my heart) in this situation ..... I feel that if my wife wants out .... she has to say it. She has to tell me what she is going (or wants) to do. I guess I want that closure if this is the way we are to end.

As I said, I do not want to do so ..... but perhaps I am the "insane" one ..... believing that our marriage can be re-built/saved.... that my wife can "discover" and "understand" herself and the light will go on .... and she will be able to re-kindle whatever it was that found herself drawn to me.

I do know that both of us have to be on the same page to move forward .....

I am writing this on Mother's Day .... a day for celebration .... for my kids this could be the last...as a family.

[London]

maastricht - those words your wife uttered to you striked a familiar chord with me. I think your response was somewhat supportive of her and firmly places the burden of action on her. But since you have not indicated that she came back with an answer, you still have the opportunity to suggest a few reconciliatory options.

You know, as "logical" as you may be, your response was an "emotional" one. Telling her you love her was from the heart. Did that have any effect on her?

Her telling you that she'd rather be friends with you again suggests that there is no more romantic love for you in her heart - BUT that she still does care for you and does love you.

One approach I might suggest - and this may be, umm, no, it WILL be hard, might be to suggest to her that the two of you go about a "trial seperation". This would allow her to think about the issues that are plaguing her without the pressure of you being there and may also give her the opportunity to really experience what it might be like if she wants to exit the marriage. It will either make her reconsider her committment to you OR will solidify her decision that an exit is best for the two of you. The seperation will also give you some space and time to think about things and at the end of it, will provide you with an answer. You've tried everything else.

[Concerned Reader]

Dear Maastrich

There is a long thread posted by G-Dub (Married but under threat) where, over a period of months, he and his wife managed to repair a marriage which appears to have been in a similar position to yours, although the children were grown up.

Well down on page 7 of the thread, on 30th March, he lists the steps he felt were most helpful in recovering the situation.

I think this goes there:

http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1960&page=7&pp=15&highlight=gdub

It did take several months, and the situation was touch-and-go. There was a steps-of-the-court reconcilliation, which I personally would have bet against. Still, just shows how wrong you can be.

G-Dub appears to have some factors in common with you, particularly in being an action-based person, used to taking decisions and finding it very difficult to deal with someone who wanted to simultaneously benefit from the decisions taken by others and yet protest that they had not been fully consulted.

I was trying to explain - not very sucessfully - to him that one of the features of years of childcare is that one very often has to adopt patterns of behaviour which cope well with the necessities of supporting children and a spouse but at the expense of 'putting up' with things. After a decade or so, it rankles. An example will clarify here:

Your W announces the marriage is in trouble. You take what she says seriously, and you are very upset. BUT when you next post, it appears that you have gone away for several days on a business trip. I know, the trip was necessary. I know it is how you make your money and she benefits from that. I guess it was booked long ago and it couldn't be changed because clients are depending on it, and they too have mouths to feed.

Suppose all that is true, but to your W it may feel as if she says something, you pat her on the head.....and nothing changes. So she is left seething, wondering exactly what she has to do to get some change around here.

The situation is complicated because she is just not sure what change she wants. Or, given the constraints, what might be possible.

As any lawyer will tell you, when someone decides to go, almost nothing will prevent them. So if she is around, what she wants is dialogue (that means you listen, she talks) and she is looking for negotiation, recognition, something hard to describe but when she sees it, she will grab it. For the moment, she still thinks that whatever it is, she is more likely to find with you than without, or she'd be off.

GDub explains it better than I do.

[maastricht]

London & Concerned ......THANKS!

London, I did suggest to my wife .... does she need to take a weekend away...or even a week alone somewhere. I offered that suggestion not as a solution but as a start. I also offered to juggle my work schedule (and work from home and/or take time off) to accomodate .... as we have young children.

A "trial separation" for an extended period (as I see it) is virtually impossible since in addition to having young kids (1st & 2nd grade), 1.) we live in Midwest U.S. without any family support. Our respective families are miles away on the East Coast; 2.) I am the only full-time wage earner .... and while we are comfortable financially, we definitely cannot afford two separate dwellings without sacrificing certain things which will be kids-related. The real "pressure" for my wife now and in the future is the children ..... I know she cannot bear how her ultimate decisions will affect our kids.

[London]

maastricht - I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps she should then take some time off and go to her parents place or perhaps stay with a friend (or vice versa, as in you may have to offer being away).

I do think its important that you both have some "alone" time away from each other in order to really think things through....

[G-Dub]

Hi Maastricht



I have been following your thread with interest over the past few days and feel that you have been getting some sound advice from other members.



However, one thing that I do disagree with (purely on a personal level from my own experience) is the idea of separation. Whilst living together you both have the ideal opportunity to work through this to a conclusion but be warned it will take an awful long time and there is no guarantee of the “happy ending”. Both I and my wife realise that if either of us had moved out our future together would have been in jeopardy because the communication channel would have been limited and good meaning friends and family tend to offer even more biased advice to the separated partner’s. Additionally, separation may prove to either partner that they can go it alone and the lure of the “single life” can seem very exciting.



It was difficult, but remaining under the same roof allowed me the chance to demonstrate that I could respect her indecisiveness and give her the time to come to her own decision in her own time. If you’re like me this will drive you to the very edge but I found that getting on with my life and being the person that my wife first fell in love with helped her realise that what she had was not so bad. It’s all about communication and compromise. But be patient, very patient, as I learnt the hard way by pushing for a closure incessantly to the extent of me eventually filing for a divorce drove my wife further away. Backing off and showing patience is the key.



Be supportive in this time of need, listen to what she has to say and make sure your hear it and respond to let her know you are really listening and try to remain detached from the emotional aspects, this will minimise any conflicts. If you start to get angry during any forthcoming chats with your wife, stop and take time out but do keep having the communication.



We cannot put my finger on what was the turning point in my wife’s change in attitude and even now her love for me has not returned to what she had before but we are building on it, almost like a new relationship rather than the old one. One thing for sure was we both agreed to put in maximum effort into to making it work and both of us controlling the pace of the reconciliation to avoid falling back into the old routine.



I wish you well and keep posting here as the wealth of advice you find on this site and input from its members far exceeds any counselling that we received.

[London]

maastricht - there you have it - two opposite views. I have seen both approaches work.

I do agree with G-dub to a degree, that the seperation would break the regular flow of communication. On the other hand, it allows for a solid resolution. You or W either miss each enough to work things out and come back home, or you don;t and feel like life is better off apart.

[maastricht]

Well, it's a month later ..... and nothing has improved. We continue to live in limbo....my wife has a part-time job so when I am not travelling on business, she is at work. Our conversation is strained....lively only when the kids are involved.

She has told me that I infuriate her by some of my antics ....such as, when she leaves for work, she will kiss the kids and I will say {in a joking way} "what about me". The kids will tease their Mom and say "yeah, you forgot to kiss Daddy". She hates it when I say I still love you. She feels that I am playing the "guilt" card. As well, in our "discussions", she gets mad because I am trying to use a logical approach to an emotional/irrational situation.

The other day I wrote her a note which in part included:

Here am I at work .... thinking, wondering, worrying (worrying mainly about you).

How are you? Where are you (with yourself)? What are you thinking? Are you having an "up" day? I feel as if I am intruding with these questions .... and I should not.

It seems that I have to watch my words around you ..... you may not realize it but you are way more edgy than ever before. Any little thing seems to "set you off". I try (and not always successfully) not to offer suggestions anymore. Is it frustration? exasperation? confusion? I thought your medicine was supposed to work in the opposite way {weak grin}.

Her response was to get into a big argument with me.

I implored her to accompany me to marriage counselling. She sees no value in counselling because "it will change her feelings about me". I said that I think a trained 3rd party may help us face certain issues....including separation/divorce.

She is encountering a rush of emotions .... she is very depressed because she is afraid of the future....afraid of my possible reaction to everything .... my wife has ALWAYS seen the darkest side of things. I think my wife has decided that we are done....but cannot bring herself to admit .....or is afraid to cut loose ..... because she has no where to go. I on the otherhand, refuses to even contemplate such a scenario.

I will admit that in many ways we are polar opposites ..... I am a morning person, she loves her sleep. I am a "half full" person...she says the glass is half empty.

Am I the one who needs help? Maybe my wife is correct .... should I face the facts .... my wife does not love me anymore and it's time for both of us to decide how to move on.

My instincts and personality is to fight back..... to make a last ditch effort to save our marriage....but who am I fighting?

[Jake Blues]

Hi Maastricht.

I know exactly what you are going through. If you review my other postings you will see my current situation is similar to yours. It has been a revalation to me on this site how many people seem to be going through very similar problems. I guess its an indicatation that we are all very much the same when it comes to emotions and relationships. So I know how you feel and I sympathise. I feel just like you in that my instinct is to find a solution.

If you look at my posting http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2341 , you will see my story is similar. I have received some excellent advice from Kuratti who appears to have gone through what we are going through and turned things around.
After much soul-searching in the last week or so, and with Kuratti's help, I have managed to find a way forward when I had none. There's no certainty that it will all turn out OK, but at least I have a path to follow. The thing I keep telling myself is something Kuratti said, "This is a marathon, not a sprint". My situation has gone on too long without me really recognising or understanding what has been happening. If my wife is to develop feelings for me again, it will take a long time. Not days or weeks, certainly months and maybe a year or two. Maybe they never will return fully.I don't know. However, what is certain is that pressuring my wife in any way - even subtle ways like the "kissing kids goodbye" scenario - will only serve to push her away and strengthen her resolve to escape. However tough it is, we have to be steady, resolute and extremely patient.
The other thing that has helped me has been my own self examination of my part in the relationship breakdown. Like Kuratti I have made a list of personal goals to make me a better person - and consequently a person who will be able to meet my wife's needs better than ever before. I have been quite open about this (I try to be open about everything - I have even shown her this web site - I am quite happy for her to read my postings - maybe it will help with her understanding?) and my wife has seen the list. I think it may already have given her pause for thought even though she is cynical about my long term will to change. This self-improvement is not for my wife however, its for me. If we do separate, I will be a better person as a result.
I think my biggest revelation however has been to realise and accept that I cannot control my wife. I cannot pursuade her or push her. She must make her own decision based on what is best for her and what she wants. At the end of the day, I love her to bits and I want her to be happy as well. If that means she must get away from me... so be it. I will have to deal with it when it happens. All I can do is show her I love her without pressurising her and try to show that there can be a future together... though she has to reach that conclusion herself. It is a very fine path to tread when you are consumed with love and jealousy, but at least its a clear path forward.

I don't know if you've checked out some of the other areas on this site. There's some excellent and really "eye-opening" articles in the "Marraige clinic". It a bit of a shock to realise you've been doing the relationship thing all wrong for the last twenty years!!!

[London]

maastricht - from your recent post, it seems that your wife is right - you are playing the guilt card on her and behaving very "passive aggressively". The little "jokes", the notes etc are doiong nothing more than pushing her away and re-affirming to her that YOU ARE NOT LISTENING.

If you do believe that she has made up her mind, then you are "fighting" only yourself in this battle. The only thing you can do now, is CALL HER OUT ON HER DECISION. Tell her you want out as well if things have run their course. This will do one of two things - (1) bring a sigh of relief to her or (2) the words will shake her up and make her want to work things out. At this point, you have nothing to lose the way things stand.

[disbelief]

I agree with London - it's time to call her on a decision. There's no point going on the way you are as it will only prolong the tension and agony between you. Whatever the decision, you'll be better off in the end.

Good luck!

Disbelief

[maastricht]

To all ... thanks very much for your feedback!!

The most agonizing/complicating aspect of our relationship is that we are alone ..... we have always depended on each other. (which is why I thought we were/are good together). There is no family to turn to ..... there is no place to go for a "temporary" separation period. All of our family is in a different country. Therefore, if/when we separate ..... it will virtually mean that we are passed the point of no return.

The other agonizing point is that I know my wife does care for me (and vice versa). She is wrestling her demons...her past...her insecurities....her emotions. She cannot bear seeing me and knowing what she is doing to me. She keeps telling me that I deserve more....to be with a woman who will love me. She "feels" that she loves me as a father, a guardian .... but not as a wife should love her husband.

Also, I guess it would be easier if we did not have 2 bright, fun-loving young children (9 & 5). Separation is difficult enough between a man and a woman ..... without abruptly upsetting the kids lives. Our home will have to be sold ..... to afford two "reasonable" but separate dwellings, we will most likely have to move to other towns.....and smaller dwellings would mean that the kids will have to give up things, change schools, etc.

In our 16+ years together, I have carried most of the responsibilities ...... cooking, finances, been very supportive of my wife's crisises. My wife has had several physical ailments together with her insecurities arising from growing-up in a broken family. As an example, on our wedding day, my wife was "freaking-out" because she was expected to dance with and kiss her Dad ..... something she had never done before. (Today, she finally has a good relationship with her parents who divorced 16 years ago.) I know I have been the foundation (and love) she has never had.

She is beating herself up....becoming more and more depressed because she sees no other way out but to separate/divorce. (I feel there must be another way). She knows that I will not make the "decision" to separate. She admits that she does not know how she will manage ....nor does she have any plans.

The bottom line is ..... my wife firmly believes that:

I have been the best husband, father and friend she could have.
Because of her upbringing, she has never developed as a person.
Her decisions from 16 years ago was made by this "undeveloped" person
No one can help her
There is no way to generate the "love" that she should feel for me (although with my wife's background .... does she know what love is)
I cannot change the person that I am
As you can tell, I feel differently .... but my opinion is not important here.

She wants me to go see a therapist.

[barry]

I'm in the same boat my wife told me yesterday that she wants to leave me and does not love me (but says she cares for me and loves me).The only reason she has not is that we have 2 beautiful children.
It all come to a head 6 weeks ago when I could tell she was ignoring me and becoming more distant.
I also know I am to blame in this as over the years because of my own self esteem issues.
I am now struggling with everything I am looking for some hope but it does not seam to be there. The other problem is we have no one to turn to we have been husband and wife and best friends. Which means now the person we turned to when things were bad is the problem. Which is making matters worse.
I cannot eat at the moment and find it hard to work as the driving factor in that was for my wife and family.
I hope your having more luck than me

[Raymond]

There must be something more than she is leaving because of your self esteem problems Barry. Everyone has a self esteem problem at times. It is not a reason for leaving, more of a reason for staying together. You seem to have a lot going for you but now it's all ending because of your self esteem problems? What do you actually mean by that?

Marriage is a commitment. One doesn't dump someone just like that. How does this self esteem problem manifest itself?

I think she is doing the wrong thing personally, but I don't know much about the ins and outs, just that you have a self esteem problem.

Raymond

[barry]

in the last 6 weeks I have realized I have done many things wrong and even if unintentional I have hurt her deeply.
For example i used to take my wedding ring off when we would argue. But now know I was just crying out for her to say she needed me and wanted me. The cruel twist of fate is that even though she would show no emotion or seam to care. She would actually breakdown on her own. I now feel so mean and guilty If I knew I was actually hurting her I would have stopped my behavior in a heart beat.

The other thing i found out is that she has had 2 lots of counseling. She was not coping with the children, but felt she should so she did not come to me. Even though she is a great mother and has produced two great rounded intelligent children.

I know she feels guilty for the way she feels, As I have not been all bad and she knows that i am a caring and loving person (her words not mine). This seams to be making matters worse as she just feels pressurized and guilty. She does not seam to want to try with our marriage and there is nothing I can do.

There is still caring and tenderness in our relationship as I know we both are worried for the other. I would do anything for her to fell better but the only option is for me to leave. but I cannot walk out on her and my children to not see them or be round them would kill me.

We have been married for 12 years and together for 16 and have both turned 40 this year. Most of the time our marriage has not been unhappy and we have some great memory's and moments together.

I love her so much it feels like someone has died now she tells me she does not love me or want to live with me.

I have booked up some marriage counseling sessions and I hope they will help but am worried the conclusion of those sessions will be the end of our marriage.

I love her and want to keep our family together but keep feeling more and more powerless to do so.

[Raymond]

I would say she has the low esteem problems not you Barry and that she needs a lot of encouragement from you. I believe this is fixable.

Okay it was not good of you to take off your ring in an argument. That was totally unfair and was using manipulation in a dangerous way. I know you realise that now, but I would say something came in then that did not contribute to the stability of the marriage. Taking a ring off speaks of divorce, a dangerous thing to bring up when there are problems.

I think it's time to encourage her and win her back. She probably feels she is a failure and has given up. You really need to build up her self esteem and give her some affirmation.

I think the marriage counseling will help. Your problems do not seem massive to me and could be fixed through love and understanding. You have to fight for her and learn the lessons from the past.

Thanks for sharing more. It puts a different light on things.

Raymond

[barry]

Thanks for the input it gave me a little hope and direction.

I had thought that she was low and possibly still thinks she has not been a good mother. I told her yesterday that she had been a great mother and you only had to look at the children to see what a good job she had done. She looked quite very tearful and upset.

I'm now trying to be stronger and set myself some goals to try to build some bridges.

I still feel hopeless but am trying to fight to save our family and marriage.

[Raymond]

Well done for telling her she is a good mother Barry. I don't think she believes it yet keep it going. I think words of affirmation will do good to her self esteem so don't give up. I am not talking about flattery. That doesn't do anyone any good and the giver is just seeking advantage, but if you see her qualities give her that affirmation. I think she needs it. You have a long way to go but you can start now. There are other things but concentrate on that for the time being.

Raymond