Can you "get back" feelings?

[jools]

Never thought I'd be doing this... but here goes. I've been with my husband for 27years (22married). Once we'd had the children I sexually and emotionally neglected him. I just had no sex drive, whereas his has always been high. My husband's love for me has always been unwavering and passionate, and I arrogantly assumed that despite my neglect his adoration would continue. Two years ago this all came to a head and he poured out his anger and desperation (justified). He told me of his lonely nights on the setee when he's cried about it (I never realised). I turned a blind eye to everything because life is easier that way. Anyway, he bitterly told me not to worry as he no longer wanted sex with me anyway. A while after this discussion he had a major cancer operation (he's fine now) which sort of clouded the marital issues.
But two years down the line I have to accept that he has been miserable every day for the last two years due to his loss of feelings for me. He even said that before his operation he didn't care if he came out of it as he felt so empty. He's such an all or nothing man that this void is devastating him (me too!) Ironically I've never desired him so much as now! We've had drink fuelled sex (though not recently) which has raised my hopes, but he says it's only sex and he didn't feel any emotion. He doesn't want to be touched or kissed and if we discuss it he sometimes becomes tearful. He says his feelings have gone and he doesn't know how to get them back (doesn't think he can)...and it's making him SO miserable! Neither of us can believe what is happening! If this continues I don't think the marriage will last. I'm so scared.
Does anyone believe that you can get feelings back?
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[Concerned Reader]

Dear Jools

You have been scrupulously careful to explain that your H felt excluded and ignored by your decisions, and this was raised just over two years ago. If my arithmetic is correct, that would have been at around 25 years together.

At that moment, the cancer intervened. To say it 'clouded' the issue is an understatement. In addition to not having the life he would have liked, the cancer threatened to take any life at all.

It is perhaps optimistic to hope that a person has an illness, recovers and then takes up where they left off. Illness changes people; it makes them re-assess their values and it doesn't necessarily bring out the saint in them. Sometimes I think that we are better at rebuilding bodies than spirits. I know of a lady who has had a tripple heart by-pass, a procedure which is nothing short of a modern miracle. But the stress of the surgery has almost killed her.

The numbness your H describes could, of course, be an effect of not being in love with someone he has taken somewhat against (with justification, according to you, but that might be debatable?). But it could also be pure shock and stress from the cancer and the unresolved marital situation. It is not by any means unknown for people who have been in traumatic situations to experience feelings of disassociation.

Most poignant of these descriptions were those by veterans of the Vietnam war. There were (probably still are) enormous problems of adjustment, even when they were coming back to perfeclty functioning families. The vets described feeling that nobody really understood what they had gone through - a complaint on good grounds.

Some of the stress seems to have come from the chronic nature of the Vietnam war. In WWII there were certainly stressful episodes, but for the majority of servicemen, this was concentrated and could be rationalized as separate events, something outside normal life. Stick a man in a prison for a few months, make him daily subject to arbitrary pain and the threat of death and see how many of them bounce back in to civilian life.

Does any of this sound plausible or familiar to you?

Stress medicine and psychology is still an area being developed, but I think it might help you and your H to discuss with the doctor if your H could be suffering from a stress-related condition. You could check some of the cancer charities online to see if they have any specialist counselling available.

If you try that first, then you could then come back to the issues within the marriage. You asked if feelings can ever be recovered? You will be encouraged to read the thread by 'G-Dub' (Married but still under threat) who worked successfully through a difficult situation.

I hope things begin to improve soon.

[jools]

Dear Concerned reader,
You are so kind to take the time to reply to my problem. For a long time I blamed the cancer and even thought my husband might be depressed, but as he said, whatever the reasons his misery stems from the loss of feeling for me. (The old "he loves me but in a different way".) In fairness, when he first told me of his loss of feeling (2 years ago) he was only undergoing preliminary tests and did not know that he had cancer. I can honestly say that he seemed less concerned about the cancer than about us. Though he's such a deep person that its hard to tell. I suppose you can tell that I'm not really sure what caused this. Should I stop looking for reasons and start looking for solutions?...if there is one...I don't know, I just know it's driving me crazy! It's nice to have a dialogue with someone. I couldn't bear to discuss this with friends or (especially) family. It's like our guilty secret, that we're not the perfect couple that everyone thinks we are - though my husband says he doesn't give a damn what others think. Sorry I'm starting to ramble now so I'll say thanks again and bye for now. (Your comments have given me things to consider.)
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[London]

Jools - I think you are off to a good start with trying to look for solutions however, rather than looking for reasons about why he's feeling the way he is, you may want to consider YOUR reasons for not wanting to be intimate with him. He confronted you about this two years ago and you while you "accept" being the cause of his "miserableness" you don't really elaborate on what you want to do to alleviate that.

He is right on the aspect that having sex is just that - its become phyiscal and no longer intimate. The question you may want to consider is WHY did you withhold intimate relations? How long has that been (I am assuming since he told you 2 years ago, that it must have been for a while prior to that - was that for a year, two years, five years)? Perhaps it was your sub-concious' way of saying that you were no longer happy in the relationship? With all that, why would the two of you not "believe what is happening" (as you say?

[jools]

Dear London,
You ask some hard questions...but that's ok! I think a lot of women go off sex after they have children..trouble is, I never got started again. Got into a rut? I never had any doubts about him being the one for me. While my sex drive was low his was its usual 24/7. Totally incompatible in that respect. I suppose that was when we SHOULD have sought help. I kept meaning to do sth about it but never did (pathetic!) Anyway, I've learned my lesson big time. I wouldn't make that mistake again - that's if I get the chance. Thanks for putting his point, it helps. I sense you're a hard person but that's no bad thing. No point pussyfooting around at a time like this!
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[London]

Jools -

I am not a "hard" person per se - I just look at asking those questions that few people dare to ask when facing a difficult situation. Often, the answers or at least the root causes are buried in those questions we dare not ask ourselves. I hope that they provide some use to you as you try to work through your issues.

But if i may ask, I know that women often go off of sex for a while after childbirth - almost all the women I know who gave birth have said something similar - how long did your situation last?

Its interesting that you mention "incompatible" sex drives - in my experience, that usually works out with both partners learning to "compromise" during the course of their marriage. And of course, after childbirth, many women take a "sabbatical" from sex - it's not necessarily wrong that you didn't see anything unusual about that situation. Again, what you need to ask is how or why your feelings for this man changed (and not after childbirth, but a little while after that). It seems that things never "re-started" for you on a deeper level.

[jools]

Thanks for your time, London. Whatever's happened in the past I just want the chance to start again, with him. Part of me thinks that sounds impossible, the other part prays it is possible. Never had much faith in the thought of relate counsellors. Can they really make a difference? How "qualified" are these people? I don't know. I don't know anything at the moment! Don't know what to do for the best.
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[London]

Jools - I know the what you are feeling.....

As i said, you need to evaluate what happened in the past from your end and the impact it has had on your relationship with him and you need to understand how he's "felt" and reacted to that impact.

Starting again is just not a possibility - there's been too much water under the bridge. BUT what you can do however is build on what you have - but in another way - You have to know that's not equal to starting again.....

[jools]

But knowing these things, how do you respond to them? What do you do with this painful knowledge? It's like continually picking a scab and not allowing it to heal. I know there was a lot of anger (initially) on his part and I suspect that he mistrusts my motives and feelings. It's like he's closed off from me. Reluctant eye contact, no laughs. He's still very caring as he'll ring during the day to see I'm OK. He has a lot of integrity and honesty, in fact he's a wonderful person!
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[London]

I guess what I am saying is that you both will need to try to understand the harm that's been done and communicate it with each other. I can't think of anything else that will help the two of you determine whether or not to continue together. Counsellors at Relate will end up trying to get the two of you to communicate your feelings in order to move this process along. If there is no real will to want to stay together, then the counselling sessions won't really help!

[Kate]

Hi Jools

It occurs to me that if this distance between you has been going on for a long time, then it will take time for the pain and hurt to all come to the surface. After all your husband has been trying to handle the pain of your apparent rejection over a period of time and so it will take time and patience to heal that hurt. Asking for forgivness (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/relbasictopic/forgive/) is one way that can begin that process. Showing you are willing to try and act differently can also help. beign tender, gentle and affectionate without rushing into sex, can allow the intimacy to grow again. Try to find out what communicates love (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/relbasictopic/cftcartoon/whatlove.html) to your husband.

I believe that marriage enrichment weekends (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/servprov/) can also help couples to rediscover the closeness and intimate communication that strengthens the bonds of love and affection and sometimes this works better than counselling.

Kate

[jools]

Someone please help! I have been trying to remain strong and positive but don't know how much more I can take. My H admits he's depressed but says it's because of the way things are between us. This has been going on for 2 years. I've ben trying to make amends but he says that he's just "numb". Says he loves me but it's a different kind of love. When we discuss the subject he becomes upset and says he just wants to be alone. I asked if he wants to move out but he just say "I don't know". That's his answer to most things. Yesterday was our 22nd anniversary. I got him a card but didn't receive one. His level of agitation was scary. Eyes twitching, said he felt "weird". He sleeps downstairs (that's when he manages to sleep...think I'm catching his insomnia). I remained upbeat and acted normal. The children joined us and he eventually calmed but was very distant.
What the hell am I supposed to do? He's miserable and I'm fed up of analysing my life 24/7. Think I'm slowly joining him in the black pit. Even if he wanted to leave I don't think he'd do that to our beautiful daughters - it would devastate them. But how can we carry on like this? My doctor suggested anti depressants when I discussed this with her but how would that work if the problem between us persisted. Oh God I look at the future and I'm scared. What should I do?
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[Kate]

Dear Jools


It sounds as if your husband may be clinically depressed and need some help. Is he willing to go or is it you that is being offered the anti-depressants.

If your husband is depressed, then asking him big questions, like what do you want to do, or, do you want to leave will not be helpful. When people are depressed they don't need people solving their problems or trying to make them "feel better" or change, they need love and acceptance and encouragement. They need to take life a day at a time, to see little victories and successes in every day things. When asking someone who's depressed how they are, if you have to do that, ask them what sort of day they are having. Is this a good day or a not so good day? Little gifts just to tell them they are special like a small bunch of flowers or their favourite sweets. A “well done” for a little achievement or "I enjoyed that smile", when they manage one. Knowing when to just be there silently and when to speak. Getting out for a walk in the country or on the beach - simple things in life that remind them why it's worth living.

Right now the how'd and why's of how you got into this situation are not as important as just steadying life onto an even keel. It's no use you churning through over and over again what you may have done to contribute to the situation and what you need to do to put it right. You are there now and the only way forward is through the midst of it. Just focus on what you do have - each other, your beautiful daughters, health etc. Try and focus on getting through each day and keeping the family on the road.


It may seem as if this is all about you giving, but right now it probably is - not doing anything dramatic, just living each day at a time. If you can provide that stability and calm then your husband may be able to seek help with his depression and things will begin to move in the right direction.

I know this may not be what you want to hear. You would probably like some course of action to follow to help you feel as though you are doing something to move forward. I know it’s been going on a long time, but you say yourself that your family is worth it, so perhaps what it takes is not something dramatic, but something steady and simple.

Coping with depression in the family is not easy, hang on in there.

Kate
:)

[jools]

Thank you, Kate. He's a lot better today. The outside world wouldn't even know about how he's feeling as he manages a demanding job and is physically active. I'm the only one who knows that these outside activities merely act as distractions as he never manages to shake off his numbness. It was for him that the anti depressants were suggested though I feel that the fact of taking these at the moment would just raise the anxiety levels (I haven't mentioned them to him). I told him I was going to see an NHS counsellor to talk and he asked me to make an appointment for him afterwards. We'll see. But thanks, your words were helpfull. God bless you.
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[jools]

:confused:
Me again. One week down the line and he's still looking distant and agitated (seems to be worse in the evenings). I try to create a calm positive atmosphere at home and deflect as much stress away from him as possible. Added to this he's also experiencing business problems and a lack of finance. For whatever reason he's started sleeping in our bed again - though there's no spontaneous cuddles or closeness. One night though after going to the pub he initiated a night of passion (!?)...though I do not believe that he connected emotionally as it was not mentioned the next day. I commented, saying how nice it was, and he smiled weakly and looked uncomfortable. I think recent developments are his attempts to regain normality...but I fear that as he tries and fails he will only become more despondent. I don't think that he will be able to regain his feelings while he is depressed, and he'll remain depressed while he fails to do so (TRICKY!)

On the one occasion that he admitted that he was depressed he said that it was because of us (for 2 years?!) So what do I do? If I just give him space won't he just continue to drift as he has for the past 2 years? Does depression have a time span? His never gets SO bad that others would notice (he just seems quiet or moody).He seems hostile to the idea of discussing depression, and I don't want to put more pressure on him or he'll start to get the desire to be on his own again. If he could only believe that his lack of feelings could be due to depression it might give him hope (or don't depressed people think like that?)

I don't know how to help him without pressurising him. Is it best to wait till he seems more relaxed or just grab the bull by the horns? Maybe someone who understands about depression could advise the best way to proceed. I haven't seen the counsellor yet as there's a waiting list.
Jools.
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[helenrw200]

Jools

Depression is a strange illness and affects each person differently. You see things in a different perspective and it can get that you see no hope or point in anything. It also makes you focus on the one thing that you think maybe causing it and blinkers you to anything good that's happening in your life.The worse thing is ( as in my case ) you don't even realise you ARE depressed, and it normally takes someone else suggesting you may be before you realise you have it. In most cases I would suggest avoiding applying pressure as what is needed is support and understanding, but in your case, whilst H is not admitting to feeling this way, you are suffering as much as he is, and if he is unwilling to go seek help for it, then something has to be done for your own sanity.

I've often been told that when my depression is at it's worst I seem to be " living entirely inside my own head ", i.e appearing distant , simply because am worrying at a problem that I can't either solve or let go of and can't concentrate on anything else.

Unfortunately, true depression if left untreated has no time span and can continue for many years . there is lots of help out there , including but not exclusively anti depressants, counselling, cognative behavioural therapy etc but sadly until your H admits he has a problem, there isn't much you can do alone.

I would suggest that you maybe find out as much as you can about differing treatments around in your area and leave the literature around for him to pick up if he wants to, talk vaguely about other people you may know who have had help with depression and how much better they feel now they have had treatment ( doesn't have to be actual people you know in person )

Certainly from my own experiences with the illness he won't be able to discuss any problems you and he might have until he has a handle on it, frankly when you are depressed you just can't be bothered , it can be a very selfish illness.

Staying calm is a good thing, but don't take all the stress upon yourself as he will just allow this to continue and you will end up more depressed than he is ! Stay positive but not over the top and remind him now and then of the fact that you love him, and of the positive things you have together, if he begins to be negative counteract with "well yes that may be true , but ..........." and point out a positive side to the situation.

Hope this helps.

Helen

[jools]

Helen
Thanks. Your response has really helped me. It's made me more certain than ever that it is depression. You could have been describing my H. I could recognise many of his traits in what you said. If I do decide to raise the subject with him I think printing off your response and showing it to him would be a good starting point. Not having suffered depression I can't imagine how he feels or what's goin on in his head...and any guesses are probably wrong (so it seems to me). How can he also not realise that he is depressed? Thank you for the insight.
Jools. X
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[helenrw200]

hi jools
Glad it helped.
The thing with depression is that if you don't have it you would think you'd feel really sad and down, but in fact what you feel is hoplessness, uselessness and completely negative, I think that's why many people don't feel they do have it . I wasn't aware until my husband ( at the time ) insisted I seek a medical opinion. It's one of the things I'm grateful to him for.

Helen

[Waterman]

So, what's the answer to the question? Can you get back feelings? Yes or no? Examples please. Seriously, this is what so many of us want to know, otherwise it is all indecisive waffle. My wife says "you can't help feelings", as if they have a mind of their own. Is she right? Can we win them back, recreate them, rekindle them or whatever? What chance is there? Where are the good examples?

[London]

So, what's the answer to the question? Can you get back feelings? Yes or no? Examples please. Seriously, this is what so many of us want to know, otherwise it is all indecisive waffle. My wife says "you can't help feelings", as if they have a mind of their own. Is she right? Can we win them back, recreate them, rekindle them or whatever? What chance is there? Where are the good examples?

Waterman - that's quite an aggressive stance. Seriously, anyone who believes that there is a Yes/No answer to feelings just doesn't get it - and by your above posting and previous posts its apparent that *you* just don't get it.

For the most part, the answer would be "no" - you can't... but there will always be ways to get a "yes" or a "maybe-but-yes" answer. Feelings can be manipulated by so many ways (drugs, momentarily satisfaction etc.......) therefore, at that point, people need to ask themselves, how honest are people when they convey their "true" feelings to those they love?

[Waterman]

Waterman - that's quite an aggressive stance. Seriously, anyone who believes that there is a Yes/No answer to feelings just doesn't get it - and by your above posting and previous posts its apparent that *you* just don't get it.

For the most part, the answer would be "no" - you can't... but there will always be ways to get a "yes" or a "maybe-but-yes" answer. Feelings can be manipulated by so many ways (drugs, momentarily satisfaction etc.......) therefore, at that point, people need to ask themselves, how honest are people when they convey their "true" feelings to those they love?

London, it isn't aggressive so much as frustrated. Your answer "for the most part no" is at least an answer of sorts, and there has to be realism. I'm not asking for a crystal ball or for an infallible recipe for success for any given situation, I'm genuinely interested in whether any of the seemingly hopeless situations we read of here, my own included, are ever rescued. That's all. There are all sorts of good advice on how to improve a situation and "give it your best shot", and that's not what I'm after, just some sort of feeling for what the chances are. There seems to be no shortage of good advice and sympathy for those in marriage difficulties here, and that's a good thing, but what if we're all struggling in vain and there's no chance of rescuing our marriages short of a genuine miracle?

The post was driven by a suspicion that maybe once the feeling apparently goes then it is indeed gone for good to all intents and purposes, in which case there is nothing left to do but abandon the relationship and move on. So much of the encouragement comes without examples of how those ideas have worked for others that there is a suspicion that all the fighting and trying in the world won't work.

You of all people would surely sympathise with that view, since you appear to be of a more forthright disposition whereby you often seem to be saying "break with the past and stop deluding yourselves about hopes of reconciliation, and get on with the rest of your lives". The dilemma is knowing when it is time to make that break, and when all hope really is lost, and the complexity is in the way as you point out that feelings do get manipulated. But where are the examples of feelings returning? If ever there was a yes surely there would be an example?

[jools]

There is no "answer" because all of our relationships are different. Some people say that their partners announce that they have never loved them; in which case there are no feelings to get back. My partner says he's not looking for anyone else and doesn't want to leave (although when he's particularly stressed he says he wants to be on his own). Something very fundamental changed within him two years ago. Admittedly our situation might have been the catalyst, but there was also a major op that threatened to leave him impotent...if not dead (double whammy!) He just seemed to withdraw more + more after this. From all I've read on depression it could explain a lot of what has happened to him. Inability to sleep, lack of interest in things, a feeling of numbness and sadness etc. Apparently one of the main symptoms of depression is a loss of libido and an inability to connect emotionally. My daughter has noticed a change as she said last night, "dad never smiles with his eyes anymore".
I tend to worry more now about his health than "us" and just want to know how best to resolve his unhappiness. Chicken + egg really...did the loss of feelings cause the depression or the other way round? I know there's no easy answer to this one but I'm working my way round all the angles hoping to find the best way forward. Also hoping that if he does eventually shake off this depression he will rediscover the feelings.
Jools. X
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[Waterman]

Also hoping that if he does eventually shake of this depression he will rediscover the feelings.
Jools. X

Ah, so you live in hope. And so do I, but it would be so much better if we could hear from or of people who did rediscover those feelings. All situations being different of course, you could never say it worked there so it'll work here, but nontheless it justifes the hope and gives strength.

[helenrw200]

waterman, I would have to say that the answer is no . Unless there has been a particular reason for the change , such as depression or illness. Once a feeling is gone, it for the most part stays that way> For the most part is the definitive part of the sentence tho, because as jools says all relationships are different . At the moment I would very much like my love for my partner to just disappear, because that would make my life a whole sight easier but unfortunately for me, the love just won't go.

I also believe strongly that you cannot force yourself to love someone , in 15 years of marriage I tried hard to love my husband, but although I cared it just never happened , and sadly my most prominent emotion when I finally left was one of relief, I say sadly, because it seemed such a waste of the prime of our lives and I hoped I might not be so heartless , but there you go.

Helen

[London]

You of all people would surely sympathise with that view, since you appear to be of a more forthright disposition whereby you often seem to be saying "break with the past and stop deluding yourselves about hopes of reconciliation, and get on with the rest of your lives". The dilemma is knowing when it is time to make that break, and when all hope really is lost, and the complexity is in the way as you point out that feelings do get manipulated. But where are the examples of feelings returning? If ever there was a yes surely there would be an example?

Waterman - Of all people I am actually very much a supporter of reconciliation where its possible. Believe me, I tried for the sake of my own marriage. But truth be known, I'm an "optimistic realist" - not a pessimist nor just an optimist. My "feelings" or my my "gut instincts" are able to discern a situation very well (whether I like what I am hearing/feeling or not....!!).

You are right about the "dilemma" - which is knowing when it's time to call it quits. And that's why, as helen and jools point out, that there is no straightforward answer becuase every situation is different. Even the same scenario with the same couple will provide a different "outcome' depending on when the answer is sought due to so many factors (internal and external).

So what is the solution you may still ask? Honestly, I would have to say, is listen to what your guts are telling you..... if more people did that, then while there'd be more (or less) heartache in the short term, but ultimately the individual would be better off in the long run because they were being honest to themselves and to their "relationship".

[jools]

Hi everyone (or anyone who's interested). I went to the NHS counsellor this week. Thought I could run my scenario by her and hopefully find a little more clarity but it was a very frustrating experience. I hoped for a discussion but she was obviously not allowed to give an opinion or comit herself too much. She asked a succession of questions and it was so obvious what she wanted me to say. I found myself saying, "I know you want me to say.... but..." She wouldn't say whether it seemed likely that my husband COULD be depressed...fair enough because she hadn't met him! But she wouldn't even say whether his behaviour MIGHT indicate as much. I got more out of my doctor in 10 mins than her in one hour! She said that people who are depressed would be unable to carry on working, as my husband is (is that true?). She then went on to ask how I would feel if well meaning friends were trying to sort out my problems...the implication being that I should let him sort it out for himself. She also suggested that he might be having a mid-life crisis. You can guess my response when she asked whether I would require another session! :eek: I think she was relieved too when I said no thanks.
Is all counselling like this? A barrage of questions designed to illicit certain responses? That's what I like about this forum...people give OPINIONS. Good or bad it doesn't matter; at least they lend other perspectives to consider.
So I'm still stuck in limbo. Back off and see what happens or push the issue? I certainly wouldn't suggest counselling if that's what it's like, though I'm sure there must be good ones out there. Continue to watch his constant lack of joy in anything or put yet more pressure on him by persuading him to visit the doctors with me? I'm not expecting any of you to give me answers, but it's nice to read your opinions. London spoke about "gut instincts"...mine tell me that this is solvable, I just need to find the right way...and as you said, London, timing can be everything!
Jools X
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[G-Dub]

Hi Jools hope you don't mind me putting my thoughts and opinions to you for what it may be worth:

She said that people who are depressed would be unable to carry on working, as my husband is (is that true?). She then went on to ask how I would feel if well meaning friends were trying to sort out my problems...the implication being that I should let him sort it out for himself. She also suggested that he might be having a mid-life crisis.

I disagree totally with this unless it's a very deep form of depression. From my personal experience (I believe my W is also suffering from MLC and depression), work is like a sanctuary, providing an escape from the instability at home due to our reactions to their depression. Additionally someone who is depressed can quite easily hurt family members with their actions and words without fear of serious reprisal, they are after all family. If they did the same with work collegues the repercussions would be great as they are not members of their family and would not feel so restrained (my W had a small taste of this a couple of weeks ago when some of her co-workers turned on her after her moods/comments affected them). Therefore things tend to be fairly smooth at work and rough at home for those suffering with this problem.


So I'm still stuck in limbo. Back off and see what happens or push the issue? I certainly wouldn't suggest counselling if that's what it's like, though I'm sure there must be good ones out there. Continue to watch his constant lack of joy in anything or put yet more pressure on him by persuading him to visit the doctors with me? I'm not expecting any of you to give me answers, but it's nice to read your opinions. London spoke about "gut instincts"...mine tell me that this is solvable, I just need to find the right way...and as you said, London, timing can be everything!
Jools X

Totally back-off on the issue, especially on a personal front but seek advice and guidance to help you manage yourself through the situation. I'm 99% sure you will not convince him to seek help as I suspect he does not realise there is anything wrong with him. My W has had myself and 4 other members of the family asking her to go to the doctors about her mood swings etc but each time she becomes confrontational saying she has no problem, the problem is ours, so we have learnt not to do this. You have to accept you have no real control over this situation, I was recently advised not to walk-away from it (I was very close 2 weeks ago) as it will deepen their depression but you must do what is right in your case.

I'm getting on with my life and showing no signs of being affected by W's moods etc (very important that this is highly visible to your partner), providing the support she permits me to, managing the situation as best as I can and hoping that my W will come through this on her own or with assistance which she needs to seek. How long you can remain in the Limbo land is up to you, forcing the issue is guaranteed to make matters worse.

You asked for opinions, well you have mine......take care

[jools]

Thanks, G-Dub.
You certainly make more sense than the counsellor. I agree, especially with your comment about work being a sanctuary. One unusually communicative night, last August, my husband tried to tell me how he felt and asked me to remember it for him. I wrote it down in my diary later. This is what he said:
* I feel like a different person. Like I've died and someone else has woken up in my body.
* I watch you and the girls, obviously so close, and feel excluded.
* Very often I just want to be alone.
* Friends come round to talk but I can't be bothered. I don't have the patience for them.
* I can understand how people can cut off their thoughts of others and their feelings... a kind of tunnel vision.
* I don't feel suicidal, just different.
* Work is my box that I escape into. It's not a pressure. I work with and for people, but never feel pressure from them.
(I think he's forgotten this conversation, and was unaware that I wrote this down. I've never shown it to him since. Did he want me to remind him of it at a later date I wonder when he asked me to remember it?)

The last point backs up what you said, G-Dub. Your thoughts were worth a lot to me so thank you. Fancy a job as a counsellor?
Love Jools. X
________
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[helenrw200]

it most certainly is possible to work whilst suffering depression and many people do, as you said , it's kind of a release to get out of the house and feel " normal ". At work you are a different persona and this may apply to your H . You had a bad experience with this particular counsellor, but I have found they are all very different and the trick is finding one with a wealth of experience in your particular " problem ". Counsellors do tend to ask questions designed to make you think about your situation and can't always offer an opinion, what they can do tho' is refer you to resources that CAN help, or at least point you in the right direction.

There isn't much you can do to ease the state of mind your H has, until he asks for help or guidance ( if he does ) but you can safeguard your own mental health as what is happening is putting a huge strain on you. As I sad before , depression can become a very selfish illness and one in which you think so much about yourself that you hardly give a thought to others, it's all you can do to get through each day and the quote from your husband about " can't be bothered " and " Have no patience with them " is a trademark feeling of depression.
It is very much an illness that makes you feel you are on the outside looking in and you can't seem to partcipate , no matter how you might want to, sometimes you don't even want to at all.

I hate to say this, but I feel that until your H gets a handle on his state of mind, you are banging your head against a brick wall .

Keep posting jools and take care.

Helen

[G-Dub]

Hi Jools

The last point backs up what you said, G-Dub. Your thoughts were worth a lot to me so thank you. Fancy a job as a counsellor?
Love Jools. X

No thank you, I'm happy dealing with logical problems rather than emotional/phycological issues. I'm purely offering my opinions and thoughts based on my own personal experiences.

I think counsellors have their time and place, certainly on the emotional side I found them very helpful as we were travelling through the divorce phase, and they even helped me after we jointly agreed to stop the divorce. At this point in time all they would be able to offer me is emotional support rather than advice.

However, I feel both you and I are now dealing with medical issues rather than emotional/relationship issues and the counselling should ideally come from a medical/phycological professional. The problem is that these professionals have to be sort by the person with the illness unless it's extremely serious, warranting some form of sectioning. Niether you nor I can convince our spouses that they have a problem and believe me several members of our family have tried and it just serves to make the situation worse.

The main thing I have found to have positive results is to keep calm, keep active and get on with life in a highly positive way, initially it feels like burying your head in the sand, but the improvements are almost instantaneous. Also you will find that self-improvement and being positive will help prepare you for what could be a long haul.

If you want to give it a try and let us know how you get on that would be good. In the end it's up to you, do what is right for you and seek all the help, support and advice you can lay your hands on.

[Concerned Reader]

Dear Jools

I don't know if this link will help, but it indexes emotional issues which people who have experienced cancer might face.

http://www.cancerbacup.org.uk/Resourcessupport/Relationshipscommunication/Emotionaleffects

I'm sorry the counsellor didn't seem to be much help, but I believe the reality is that there is very little she can do unless the approach is from your H himself.

Actually, despite the difficulties with the counsellor, I would pursue this for yourself as it makes it easier for your H to join you or to seek help himself. If you go now, it gives him 'permission' to go when he feels ready. Perhaps a different sort of counsellor would be more appropriate though.

I hope things improve soon.

[blossom]

So, what's the answer to the question? Can you get back feelings? Yes or no? Examples please. Seriously, this is what so many of us want to know, otherwise it is all indecisive waffle. My wife says "you can't help feelings", as if they have a mind of their own. Is she right? Can we win them back, recreate them, rekindle them or whatever? What chance is there? Where are the good examples?

I'm not sure if I'm a good one to answer this question, but the subject just drew me in. My H had an affair about 3 years ago. I had found out after it had went on for over a year. We had been married for 26 years. I didn't want to throw all of our history/life together away....I wanted to give him a second chance....US a second chance, I should say. We then reconciled. I was elated...and I feel he was as well. It took alot of trust on both of our parts. Then...I found out from acquantances, that this had happened before....MANY TIMES. He had affairs during our entire marriage! I WAS SICK....and literally went dead inside. I no longer care what happens in our marriage. I just want OUT. He continues to tell me how much he loves me...how many mistakes he has made in our marriage, etc. This year....we will be married for 30 years. I have tried to leave twice, and he has attempted/threatened to end his life. He has been hospitalized for depression/suicide attempt. I am here because he is my husband and our childrens father. I no longer feel married...I just feel responsible for him and his welfare. Does the feeling come back you asked?? YES....if you each want/desire it! IF too much pain has passed, then from personal experience, I doubt it very much. I just want to move on....and attempt to gather my life together. Having never had an affair.....I just want to be happy again....alone or otherwise! Good luck to you...I wish you well. Blossom.

[jools]

Just a general update, but really i'm looking for some sane voices out there to stop me embarking on a course that my logic tells me is unwise but my insecurity is pushing me into. As you've read I am pretty sure that my husband is depressed following his cancer op and issues with us just before that. He's never given me reason to doubt his faithfulness BUT reading so many of these threads through, we follow the pattern of so many people that have lost feelings for spouses with one exception...the bit on the side! Now, i'm starting to question whether we are so different, am I being naive and deluding myself? Would his behaviour be more easily explained if it were driven by guilt? See, I've got myself at it.

Now here's the crunch...I can hear London tutting already...I'm tempted to start checking his mobile and phone bills, just to get it out of my head. I think I asked the wrong friend for advice because she said it was normal to feel as I did and that it was just self preservation to check. So come on folks, speak sanity to me. His bill is due to arrive from when he was abroad recently and I'm so tempted to steam it open just to see if I was the only one that he was sending daily texts to (He told me that he made no other calls while away as it was too expensive). Oh God, suspicion eats at you. I've actually told him how I feel and he assures me thaere's no one else. But when I read everyone else's posts i think I'm deluding myself. I've started to look for "evidence"....not leaving his phone lying around etc. Help, i'm going mad!!!!!:eek:
Jools. XX
________
LovelyWendie (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[helenrw200]

Jools,

Been there done that big time and believe me it doesn't help at all. Ask yourself this, what will you do if you find something ? See, unfortunately, once you start checking up it is very, very hard to stop and you also have to think through what action you can take if you do find something you don't like . I now feel terrible and am in a no win situation, if he leaves his mobile around I am tempted to check, if he doesn't I start wondering why ! I find myself watching his every move and it isn't pleasant for either of us. all it has done is breed more suspicion to the point where I don't trust him and he doesn't trust me not to look.

What will you do if you find he has been txting other women ? Leave ? Confront him ? Live with it and let it eat away at you ?That's pretty much the choices you have and believe me , even if you find nothing, you'll still be finding reasons why he might have done it and hidden it ( such as deleting txts etc ). Are you going to phone everyone who's number is listed on his bill ?

It's a slippery slope and one I dearly wish I had never set foot on !

Nobody can stop you if you really want to do it, but my advice would be don't ,if you don't trust him, if he has given you reason not to, then find another way or you'll end up feeling worse.

Helen xx

[London]

Jools - I only "tutted" becuase it's a dangerous game to play. As helenrw200 mentions, what then? What will you do if you find out that he's been not only texting but also calling/receiving calls from O/W? If you are strong enough to confront him and the situation with your new found knowledge, then I would say go for it. You have noting to lose. If you are still "hoping" to save your relationship, then its not worth it. You need to decide. If you have already decided that there's no point continuing with him, then you should be able to handle any "new information" you get by "snooping".

But listen to yourself in the above post. Is that a sign of a trusting healthy relationship? I think you may already have your answer.

Another point is, what makes you think he doesn't have another phone that he uses abroad?

[Ashamed]

Ahem. I think London is spot on. If that is the level of mistrust you two have for each other, then nothing is going to work. Your "blissful" moments would only be that...moments.

Has he been untrustworthy? Factually, the answer is no at this point in time. If he hasn't been unfaithful, then you have no reason to mistrust. On the other hand, if there is love in a relationship, occassional insecurities do crop up. One should accommodate those and deal with them honestly and openly. Easier said than done, but well worth it. He does go away a lot, that has its own effects. Bear in mind he trusts you all alone at home when he leaves. You have even more opportunity to stray than he probably would have.

I opened my stuff to my partner so she could see I am not hiding anything and encouraged her to ask. If there is nothing to hide, then a person would not mind a one-off opening up of the "books" so to speak. Auditing is a natural process. We should have natural auditing processes for both partners in a relationship.

I think the need to know is stronger than the fear of the consequences.

Ask him straight out to show you, and put the insecurity on YOURSELF. Do not say you suspect HIM, seeing as you are suspecting yourself. BUTTTT - before you do any of that, make damn sure that you have not been up to no good behind his back. And I mean anything you would not like him to see.

If you have done any such thing, first sweep in front of your own doorway before going to him. Transferring one's own guilt into mistrust of one's partner often happens. It's called a guilty conscience.

If you have been trustworthy, then I think it could be healthy to have the occasional audit. I don't think one should just blindly trust. Children do that, not adults.

[jools]

Thanks Helen for your spot on advice! That's all I wanted to hear. In fact you've been a very good cyber friend to me with some of your advice. Normally I'd be giving the same advice to others but I think I lost the plot because it's been so hard coping with his depression that I allowed my own paranoia to take over. When someone is so withdrawn and you're trying to be positive all the time for them, it sometimes builds up. We're all allowed our off days when things just get too much and the last two days have been like that for me.

I have NO reason to mistrust him as he has always been an honourable and trustworthy man. London, he only went on a "one off" trip abroad and he can't even get round to paying the bill on his existing phone let alone getting another one. I felt ashamed that I was contemplating "snooping" which was why I posted on here - knowing that I'd be told not to! Anyway I didn't. In fact when he came home I told him how I'd been feeling and what I had been thinking. He immediately took out the bill and threw it down for me to look at. I didn't look and apologised for not trusting him. He said he'd find a way through this and that we'd be fine (i'm assuming he meant his depression). So I guess I did what Ashamed suggested, and I feel alot better for it. Thanks folks for getting me back on track. I will NOT be doing ANY checking in the future. I will trust. And if I want to know I will ask. Whether you're an optimist or a pessimist the outcome will be the same...but the optimist has a better time waiting. THANKS! :)
________
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[helenrw200]

Jools

You are more than welcome, and I'm so glad you didn't do it !

It is so hard to live with someone who's depressed but you're coping remarkably well, it can be a very relationship destroying illness because the depressive seems not to care at all, and that's a real sod to cope with ( pardon my language ) and it is all to easy to " lose the plot " when you're stuck in the middle of it, I sometimes feel like the lunatics have taken over the asylum !

Has your H had any help with his depression yet ?Or is he still in denial ?

Anyway glad to have been of help !

Helen xx

[Ashamed]

That's the spirit!

[jools]

Hi Helen,
In response to your last post, it's difficult to know what he does or doesn't believe. I think he accepts he's depressed, but i'm not sure that he sees that there's any way out (the "hopelessness" you mentioned?) I wouldn't dare suggest anti-depressants, I just sense it would be a bad move; but I've spent endless time on-line researching more natural approaches. The doctor is going to test for low testosterone in his next blood test (regular PSA checks after his cancer op.). I've been getting the various vitamins recommended for depression (B6 etc), omega 3 and if the testosterone level is OK then I'm going to get some 5HTP online as it's supposed to be very successful. He knows why I'm getting these but seems happy to take them. I'll try anything. I have to cos I don't think he'd bother.

I try to be positive (which I am by nature) but I get scared sometimes that things will never improve. We do sometimes have sexual contact, but I sense that he doesn't connect emotionally. The cloud is always over him. It's not just with me, he's like it all the time. You're right about them not seeming to care. That's when the paranoia sets in. Spontaneous hugs and kisses just don't happen. In fact he said last year when he was especially bad that he doesn't want to be touched or kissed. Just recently when I raised the question about "us" he said quite sadly "I'm trying". Knowing that there'd been more physical contact between us at this time my reaction was to feel offended. He said that he enjoyed it but that "trying" word really upset me. Stupid, I know. I think it's hard not to take things personally, to see that someone is dealing with illness. I suppose it's hopeful that he is able to "try". I am trying very hard to get my head round all of this, and your insight has been invaluable to me. Thanks again.
Jools. XX (Thanks also Rob for your encouraging message...X) :)
________
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[helenrw200]

Hi Jools

This lack of kissing and hugging ... is it a recent thing ? Was he the type of man who would be sponaneous before ? I only ask because although the likelyhood is that he is depressed it can also be a trait of a different type of disorder .

Anti depressants aren't always the answer, but obviously they are the quickest route short term , there are natural treatments available and though I haven't tried them myself I know they can work for mild to moderate depression and therapy is fantastic if you are open to it, but he seems not to want to admit to his depression, so it's unlikely he'll want to try it.

What sort of cancer did he have ? My step dad had prostate cancer a couple of years ago and his sex drive suffered because of it, he also felt down for quite a while... after some investigation by my mum it turned out.... to be blunt.... that he felt he had decreased in size and felt less of a man.. he was prescribed viagra but refused to take it and they have now pretty much given up on it.. he's a very private person and didn't like the thought of all the intimate treatment he would have to have to tackle the problem.

If your H is still having intimate physical contact with you, but you feel he is holding back emotionally it may be due to depression or simply that he is having these feelings and worries of not being able to satisfy you, something I guess only he would know.

You come across as a very upbeat and positive person and you're certainly doing all the right things....... your deep love for this man is very obvious , he is at least starting to try, which means he is starting to realise he has a problem , that's a start .

Keep on doing whatever you feel you have to do.....and also remember you are an important person too, so take care of yourself. Keep us posted.

Love

Helen xx

[jools]

Hi Helen,
Yes it was prostate cancer. It left him impotent for a year after. For the past year his "potency" has improved (trying not to be too graphic!). Though he has little sex drive...used to have a VERY high sex drive. One other prob that the op has left him with is an excruciating cramping pain on ejaculation (no other way to say that one) that hurts for quite a while after...yep, another spanner in the bloody works (didn't want to bore you with that one before). He says it doesn't put him off trying, but it doesn't actually give a nice ending to things! This problem, while not common, has been recorded after radical prostate surgery (found on-line...the doctor didn't know). It seems unfair that the one thing that might help him to feel better about himself is causing him physical pain.

The not wanting to be touched thing started soon after the op, when he first showed signs of depression (though I didn't recognise it to be that at the time). He also used to say that he felt empty and very lonely, and if I tried to discuss it he'd cry (VERY unusual for him). And, yes, he was a very tactile person before, though that tactileness was usually leading to sex (which I often found just too much as I felt that we couldn't just cuddle without it being taken further). So I guess he associates touching with sex. And now the roles have reversed? (I'm thinking as I'm goin here). What disorder were you thinking of? Thanks again.
Jools. X
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[helenrw200]

Hi Jools

If your H was tactile before his op then it's unlikely he has the disorder I was thinking of, which is a disorder called Asperger's syndrome. he would have been born with it and would have displayed traits well before adulthood. The reason your H's symptoms reminded me of it was the dislike of touching and the lack of compassion he's displaying, these are 2 of the commonist indicaters of the disorder. Whilst it's possible that he might have this disorder it's unlikely, though many people do manage to disguise it quite well until something else forces it out ( as in your H's case a serious illness or a bout of depression ) People with Asperger's ( or AS for short ) are quite prone to depressive illness as they have trouble emoting and tend to keep it inside.

It sounds far more likely that in your H's case , the op, the shock of cancer and the subsequent problems with sex and ejaculation have probably sparked off a crisis in him which brings home his own mortality and results in him shutting down emotions as a way of coping. Sadly this means shutting you out too.Not surprisingly he is reluctant to let go sexually if he knows it will be painful, so staying remote gives him some control when he is feeling a lack of control over everything else .

I'm surprised his oncologist hasn't investigated this further to try to reduce any pain or discomfort, my step dad was offered all kinds of help after his op, but chose not to take it. If your H is 2 years post op and still in pain, it needs looking at .

I think his self confidence has taken a severe knock and with any luck things will improve in time.

Take care

Helen xx

[Ashamed]

You're welcome jools.

[jools]

Hi everyone, and especially Helen who has been so enlightening on the subject of depression. Thought i'd update you on my journey for solutions. Two things have happened that have made me more hopeful and peaceful than ever. Firstly I decided to sit my husband down and explain how I needed help from him as I felt that I wasn't coping well with our situation (I wasn't being selfish, I just thought he'd be more receptive to this approach). I explained my need to feel secure in our relationship. I said that I understood how he was feeling but I wanted to know whether he viewed me as his life partner, his soul mate. I wanted to know how committed he is to our marriage. He assured me of his commitment and said there never had been anyone else nor would there be. I told him that I was convinced that he was depressed and he asked what we should do about it. I didn't push too hard as I sensed that he was a little overwhelmed by the thought of what the treatment might involve. I said to wait until his blood test came back (psa check and testosterone check).

The test has revealed that his testosterone level is low and we are both convinced that this might be the root of his problem as so many other things fit that particular profile (weight gain, depression, loss of muscle mass, loss of libido, tiredness in the evening, muscle aches, lack of stamina for exercise...the complete opposite of what he used to be). It's the first time in years that I've actually seen him hopeful. He seemed relieved that that might be the cause of things. Our only problem now is whether he will be allowed testosterone replacement in the light of his history with prostate cancer (his psa came back 0.1 which is as low as possible).

Anyway, I honestly feel that we are reaching the end of this awful journey. Although my husband is not "cured" I at least feel that my marriage has been given back to me and he seems less scared about what's been happening to him... and far more communicative. I feel that we are working as a team again. So thanks to everyone who encouraged me to consider depression as I would never have investigated the possibility of testosterone deficiency without taking that route. Thanks Helen for saving my sanity on a number of occasions, also Concerned reader and Kate. Hope this bubble doesn't burst. I'll let you know!
Love Jools.:)
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[maximus92]

Hey jools,

Whew, I made it through all the posts. I'm glad to see things are looking up for you. I suffered through a mild form of depression, some of the symptoms your H had are what I had, only work wasn't a sanctuary for me. Right now I'm at a point where I can't stand being away from my wife. People at work have noticed that I'm quieter, and more reserved. When I can, I shoot emails to my wife all day, and she returns the favor.

So, the question was "Can you get back feelings?" From my experiance, I'd have to say yes. It's too bad it took somthing like my experiance to "wake up" our marriage, but in a way it was a blessing. We realized that our love was strong, just in hibernation. My wife said the same thing as your H, that she loved me, but in a different way. Now I can see it in her eyes she, and the way she talks, she,as well as I, have rediscovered our love for each other. We have a closeness now, that we haven't had since high school. So, there is hope, jools.

As far as snooping is concerned, well all I can say is it worked for me. I wish I would've been in the wrong, but I knew I was right, and I felt I had to risk betraying her trust. It took me by surprise by the way she reacted, but she realized she was caught. So, I can't say how your H would've reacted, especially in the state that he's in. I do, however, wish she would've told me instead of finding out the way I did.

Keep your head up. I know our situation is different, but maybe you can take some solace in knowing that it can work out, if you work together.

Maximus92

[jools]

Thanks Maximus,
I admire your tenacity reading through that lot! I ususally manage to keep my spirits up but have had a bad day today. A bit tearful (feeling sorry for myself!). It's one of my insecure days. A "what if..." day. I'm sure you can fill in the blanks. Anyway I'm about to slap myself round the face and go for a run (that usually works). It means a lot to me that you looked up my thread and read through it all. Thanks!!! :)
Jools. XXXX
________
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[maximus92]

Yeah, I've had plenty of "what if.." days. My wife tries to comfort me through those days. She tells me "'what if..' didn't happen, you prevented it." I'm sure your what if's are different from mine, but remember you can't do anything about the what if's. Just keep your head on the goal at hand, and you'll do fine. That's what gets me through the day, the goal of rebuilding my marriage, stronger than it was before.

There's always love and support here.

Maximus

[jools]

Had to dig deep to resurrect this thread! Can't sleep. Things nagging in my brain. And I (we) were doing so well too. How do you distinguish between unfounded paranoia and instinct? I'm so confused! He makes me feel like I'm looking for things that aren't there or that can be easily explained. I've just got this feeling in my guts that keeps surfacing when "things" pop up. He's always been straight to the point of cruelty...and his denials about everything are so vehement. I've even quizzed him when he's been so drunk that he's been spouting rubbish but he's never wavered in his denials.

Ok I'm being vague. This is what's caused it. Feel suspicious of a woman we've known for years who split from her long term partner a year ago. My H has been organising her finances (that's his job) but for some reason I've always felt "jumpy" about her. Anyway, I said a while ago I was suspicious of the way he always deleted all his messages (constantly). When I asked why he said he didn't want others to see his business. Anyway, what set me off tonight is he had a drink with his friends + got absolutely blind drunk (the talking rubbish kind). Got a taxi home + collapsed. When I walked in the room he quickly stuffed his mobile under the pillow. Now I haven't been tempted to "snoop" for ages but he looked SO guilty that I waited for him to sleep + took a look to see what he's been doing (on this occasion I felt I had to). He was trying to delete his call lists. Anyway I noticed that minutes before coming in he's made a call. Couldn't believe it as he was so drunk he could hardly speak...but the mobile number was one digit short (drunk) so it didn't connect. I instantly checked "her" number and sure enough there it was. Of all the numbers it HAD to be that one. SO! I knew I'd get no sense from him but also thought that drunk he'd have less defences. So I woke him + asked. He blabbed sth about ringing to say her mortgage had come thro today. But really...when you're that drunk. Surely work would be the last thing on your mind? He also said he was fed up with me checking all the time and got quite cross about it. Now if there is anything in this I will be SO LIVID that he lied to me and made out that I was the nutty one. My instincts are screaming at me, and I know i've got to bring it all up again tomorrow, which he won't appreciate. Don't know if i'll get to sleep tonight. What's the best way of getting at the "truth"? Is there one? Oh God I should have listened to my own advice and stayed in blissful trusting ignorance...but he looked so GUILTY!
Troubled Jools:(
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[London]

but he looked so GUILTY!

trouble is, looks like you're the guilty one now hons!


He blabbed sth about ringing to say her mortgage had come thro today. But really...when you're that drunk.


actually when you're that drunk, can you really put together a lie like that? unless of course he had rehearsed it earlier....

good luck tomorrow....

[jools]

Hi London
I slept for 2 hrs but am now wide awake again. So glad you replied. When I say he looked guilty I mean he was practically trying to stuff the phone down the back of the setee! Earlier i'd set his phone to silent for him (so he wouldn't get woken) and wasn't even tempted to check. It was just this bizarre behaviour that made me want to know what was going on. I don't know what I'm more scared of; that he won't tell me the truth or he'll tell me and it'll be what I don't want to hear. Oh London it's been a long 2 and a half years. And just recently we seem to have been getting on so well. Don't know how I'll manage a day in work tomorrow. I know i'll have to speak to him. He'll probably say he doesn't remember any of it...but that doesn't help me. And the awful thing is that this confrontation has set "us" back. Thanks for being there.
Jools. X
________
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[jools]

Just an update
Waited til H was awake and asked him if he'd remembered any of last night. Only remembered me waking + confronting him...not coming in + acting suspiciously with the phone. Anyway, I filled him in on all that had happened. Said he couldn't remember trying to ring her but if he had it was probably to tell her to contact her solicitor in the morning as her "offer" had come through (fair enough). Regarding furtive phone behaviour, again couldn't remember but said it was prob because he thinks that I will get suspicious if I see that any females have rung him. Which they do constantly re work...not that that ever bothers me (it's only the one!)...but I got the point. This all sounds pretty petty as i'm typing it, but i guess it's just a measure of my paranoia born of his depression. He seems a lot better and is making an effort to be more sociable and attentive. But I still wonder what will happen when/if he seems really recovered and I ask him the $24,000 question. Whether he still wants to be on his own. I know he said that when he was at his worst, but I still wonder... though I don't think so. Anyway, I hope everyone's OK. I'm just really grateful that when things do look bleak there's always someone to "speak" to. Thanks.
Love Jools. X
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[helenrw200]

Jools

I've just had an experience much the same only far far worse.

Briefly, my partner and I went away last w/e and used the small bag he also uses for work to pack our things in. Yesterday I was looking for a small pair of tweezers I can remember packing but couldn't think where so I guessed I must have left it in the bag. I was looking for them when to my horror I pulled out a mobile SIM card, now we both have contract phones so I knew right away this was bad. Human nature being what it is, I put it in my mobile and then wished I haddn't. There were over 20 messages from some woman saying sexual things but what hurt the most was just the one message saying " can't wait to see you tomorrow ". I was devastated and confronted him straight away, but he actually had the gall to deny it , we ended up in a usual blazing row and according to him he's been only talking to her since Monday... rubbish IMO... and what's more it isn't the first woman he's done this with , he txts them off the dating channel on cable TV, they mean nothing and he can't say he won't do it again, but he never meets up with them and doesn't ever intend to, and in his opinion this isn't cheating.

I'm in shock, I thought we'd sorted things out but apparently he feels like I put him in prison and as soon as I ask him not to do something ( ie talk sex with other women ) he wants to do it and so he does.

I've been through pain before but to hear the man you gave up everything for and loved say these things and be so cold is the worst pain of all. I wish I'd never checked.

Helen

[London]

helen - sorry to hear that. So, what do you do next? Everything you don;t like about this man (the porn, the texts, the meetings with other women) is this man....

HUGS

[helenrw200]

Well I can't go anywhere , nowhere to go ,so it's down to him, no doubt he'll tell me what he intends to do, he seems to be running the show here. Thanks for the hug London

Helen

[London]

I don't understand - why is it upto him to dicate the what you will accept or not? He's not respecting your wishes, so why are you staying?

[helenrw200]

I have no choice but to stay........I have no money..... my autistic son goes to school down the road.... and I have a lease on the house I can't get out of, unless I pay the remaining 4 months rent . Sounds like excuses but believe me it isn't .It's life . I've asked him to leave, he says why should he, it's his house too and he has nowhere to go. Sometimes not only is it not easy to walk away, it's bloody impossible no matter how trapped you feel and that's how I feel, trapped.

Helen

[London]

i'm sorry to hear that helen.... hang in there

[jools]

Just typed a whole message, accidentally clicked the back page and have to start again. Anyway, I'm sorry to read what's happened to you Helen. It's a horrible gut wrenching feeling when you discover (or think you have) something like that. Why is it that whenever we look for trouble we invariably find it? Although I don't think either one of us looked for no good reason.

If I'm honest I don't think that my problem is other women (just watch fate come and kick me in the face on that one!), it's what's happened (is happening?) between us (no one else). I think the title of my thread is still appropriate. He says he loves me, will never leave me, wants to spend his life with me etc. (that is, when I ask him) BUT I sense that there is still an emotional distance. I think the hugs are to reassure me and the kisses are only the greeting/goodbye type. Even when we make love (which is far more frequent than ever before, because i'm more interested) he doesn't kiss me. If that came back, I feel that we would have made it. This is what confuses me. Is it loss of sexual feelings generally or loss of those feelings for me? I once asked him that at the start of all of this and he said that he didn't know as he's only ever had those feelings for me anyway (since we've been together). When we have sex I know that he's made the effort to "get in the mood" - though once we get started it's not a problem.

Emotionally he's a lot stronger and seems happier but I am worried that his desire (that's the word!) for me might never come back. I know I shouldn't make an issue of it because that will be counter productive. But it does make me feel VERY insecure, and very sad. I'm glad I managed to write that lot down. Hope it makes sense.
Love Jools. X
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[helenrw200]

Jools, I understand totally !it's more than sex , it's lack of intimacy... hugs kisses etc given on impulse because you love someone and just get caught up in the moment. I've noticed a distinct lack of this in my relationship ( it sort of tailed off ) even before all the trouble started. He still insists that he hasn't been unfaithful and that he never would, and that he loves me, but to me txt sex or phone sex is still cheating because it detracts from the intimacy of two people sharing those experiences only with each other, he can't understand that. Whether or not he actually met her is irrelevant to me, the intention was there ... and he keeps saying that it's a temptation ( to talk sex with other women ) but he would never actually DO it, well from my point of view , if he can't resisit temptation then where exactly does he think that might lead ?

I won't be checking up on him anymore, I really don't want to know anymore sordid details, we have to share a house, but whatever we had before is dead in the water.

I hope your situation is nowhere near as bad as mine, and I don't think it is.

Take care

Helen

[jools]

Hi Helen
Sorry to hear you feel your relationship's "dead in the water".Sod's law says that the more you pull back from him and stop checking or even noticing the more likely he'll be to start making more of an effort with you!

I had a good look at that MLC site. Not sure whether being able to stick a label on something helps solve the situation. In fact, I found that wading through all those postings only seemed to fuel my sense of paranoia and panic. I mean, if all those American husbands ran off to find younger models to assuage their mid life crisis, then shouldn't my husband be doing that any time soon??? See what I mean? It doesn't really help. When I think of all the years that I wandered around in my complacent haze, not really bothered much about the physical state of my marriage then the irony of our present situation is very apparent. Talk about role reversal! Maybe we should synchronise our MLCs and both drive off in bright red sports cars but in different directions, putting the kids up for adoption! See what these web sites do to you? I'm obviously going nuts.
Here's to sanity, Helen. Love Jools. XXX
PS) Hope all goes well for Jeannie today.
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[helenrw200]

Hi Jools

Hmm well I think Steve is a little young to be going through MLC, he's barely 38, who knows though. I think it's just the way he is, he has this weird thing about privacy( secrecy ) and now I know what I know I'm not surprised ( if that makes sense )

I also took a look at the site but to be honest, I'm not sure I want to know why men .. or indeed women do crazy things in middle age. Right now I don't want to know much about men at all .

You know I have an online friend who's screen name is " men lie and women cry".....her husband left her for a much younger woman and was still denying he was having an affair only days before he walked out the door, where's the point in that ?? I'm starting to think her SN is more accurate than even she knows.


I too hope Jeannie gets the closure she needs today and will be thinking of her at 6.30 and hoping it all goes ok.

Take care

Helen

xx

[jools]

Hi everyone
I'm not expecting answers from anyone, I just need to communicate with someone that might understand what I'm feeling. My husband certainly doesn't understand! I'm not even going to bore you all with all the details...it's just that unless I can contrrol my own anxiety that surfaces from time to time I know that I could end up driving my husband away. I honestly feel that we are making very small steps towards reforging our relationship. I would say that the main area that has improved is our frienship and respect for each others feelings. He's been more considerate lately and I think that his depression has improved. He says that he has no desire to leave me and is committed to the marriage. But although sex has resumed he still resists passionate kissing during sex, or really looking into my eyes. It's like that Cher song, "If you wanna know....it's in his kiss". Anyway, I've never mentioned this as I think it would just add to his pressures and maybe even cause a set back. But I can not convince myself that he's not just staying to keep his family happy and together (something he denies). I think his libido's decreased generally (not just for me) but what is it with this kissing thing? It's like the final part of him that he's holding back from me.

Anyway, I've NEVER been an anxious, suspicious, paranoid person but I've become one since our relationship crises. Like last night he went away for a training seminar. I rang to see if he got there safely and because he didn't answer his phone I kept ringing. Eventually he texted me to say he'd ring later (he later explained that they were all sitting down for their meal so it was embarrassing). When he explains things I'm fine but I know that it's starting to P him off. Understandably. BUT i'm feeling like this because i'm feeling so vulnerable in this relationship. I know what I've got to do. I'm just venting. I've got to stop checking, quizzing and manage my anxiety. Don't let him see it. Continue building on our friendship because that's the only way the other elements can be healed. He's back this evening, so I have to undo the damage I did last night with my pathetic texts etc. I have even stayed off work today cos I couldn't sleep till 4.30! It feels like i'm going mad sometimes! I can be fine for days...even a week...but then it gets a hold. Right, I'm rambling. Thanks if you've stuck with me this far. Feel free to berate me. It's just hard when you're not sure...I need that kiss!
Jools. XXX
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[510-Blue-Eyes]

Jools - I wish my wife gave a damn as much as you seem to do!

I could (and have done in the past) go out several times a week. I have spent nights away loads of times. And she has never once phoned to 'see if I got there' and has never queried me for not texting or phoning her to let her know...

Regarding the kissing. That would do my head in if I couldn't enjoy a passionate kiss while (you know)... You should grab his head and just kiss him...

Jools, I admit I have not read this entire thread as I'm at work and not time to read the 4 + pages right now...

X

[jools]

And what if she did show you all the love and care that I have tried to show my H since our crisis...would it make a difference? Would you rediscover your desire and passion for her?

I can't understand how you threatening to leave or actually leaving hasn't been a massive wake up call to her. It certainly was for me. I just hope that in my case too much damage hasn't been done. As for the kissing...I've tried, but as soon as I sense that lack of response I don't push it. When all of this blew up 2 1/2 years ago one of his upsets that came pouring out was how i would "push him off" with my kisses. i.e.) I wouldn't let it get too passionate cos I knew what it was leading to (which I wasn't interested in at the time). It's like i'm getting pay back for then. I don't think he's doing it deliberately to punish me, but on some psychological level it's either that it's his last layer of protection because he still doesn't trust my intentions OR he finds it hard to kiss me cos he just doesn't fancy me like that any more. That kiss thing is really puzzling me. That's the final piece of my jig saw that's still missing. Maybe you'll bore youself by reading more of my thread when you get in and tell me what you think.
Jools. X
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[510-Blue-Eyes]

And what if she did show you all the love and care that I have tried to show my H since our crisis...would it make a difference? Would you rediscover your desire and passion for her?
Unlikely. And I agree that my walking out the door, you would think, would have prompted some changes that would (could) revitalise the relationship and perhaps relight the fire that, albeit not the brightest fire of all time, must have been there years earlier.

Maybe you'll bore youself by reading more of my thread when you get in and tell me what you think.
Jools. X
I'm sure it won't bore me Jools. Just a case of finding the time, which I will do after work. :o

M.

[London]

that it's his last layer of protection because he still doesn't trust my intentions OR he finds it hard to kiss me cos he just doesn't fancy me like that any more. That kiss thing is really puzzling me.



jools - that's an interesting post. You know for many, kissing is an extremely intimate act... partly because it requires an element of giving and active participation (that isn't necessarily present in sex - think about, there are times where you can just lay there and have it happen and not once have to engage - and this is both for men and women). I read somewhere that many prostitutes refuse to kiss their clients for precisely the same reason. To kiss someone passionately is to acknowledge your desires and passions for the other in an active fashion...

[510-Blue-Eyes]

Spot on!!! Absolutely!!!

Gotta second everything London just said...

[jools]

Yea, and i'll third it. I've considered the prostitute analogy myself. But I'm still confused. I've tried to work out whether it's me (i.e. he wouldn't have a problem with someone else) or sex in general. When i've asked him this (quite a while ago) he says that he's never even thought about anyone else so he can't say, he's just sad that he can't get these feelings with me. I recently asked him whether he ever masturbated (before all this he used to frequently cos he was so highly sexed) and he said not at all...he never gets the urge to and when he's tried he can't get it hard enough (sorry no delicate way to express this). So at least I can do more for him than he can do for himself! I also asked whether he got early morning or night time erections...again hardly ever, if at all. In a way i'm thinking this might be hopeful, cos it might suggest that it's not just me that he's gone off. When we do have sex I think he's making an effort as he wants to make "us" work, and I must admit that it's getting easier and seems more natural (except for the kissing and eye contact thing). At first it was only if we'd been drinking. I think he was totally messed up by the prostate cancer op. as he couldnt get any sort of erection for nearly a year after.

Basically, I don't know where the psychology begins or ends on this one. I just get scared that he'll never be able to feel that passion and desire for me again. But I can't rush it. It's like you said, London, in your earlier posting...I can't go back...I've got to start again. Bloody hard work! Wish I could emotionally detatch from it all...can't. Thanks for "listening".
Jools. XXX
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