Help Please

[Ryan]

I know that everyone seems to come on here for help, but then I believe that is what it is here for and I have no where else to turn.

My wife and I have been having the usual arguments over the past year or so, but just lately (couple of months), things seem to be going really bad. A little background...My wife is a stay at home mum. This drove her crazy so she started trying to find extra things to do to keep her mind busy and active, fair enough no problems. However, over summer it turned out that we were arguing because we had no time, simply because of how much had been taken on. She was looking after our two little kiddies (2 & 4), taking them to nursery every morning, breeding rabbits (about 30 or so) and looking after them, setting up as an Avon rep and sales leader, trying to set up her own card business to a local shop and still be a housewife. Obviously something had to give and as it turned out, she had problems with the rabbits, and they happened to be the first to go. Then the cards dwindled simply because of time. Anyway, things have been rocky since with us at each others throats when we do have a few minutes together. This morning just blew up and everything just collapsed. We were screaming and shouting at each other and next thing she was on the phone to a friend saying that she wanted to go to the solicitors on the way back from school to sort out a divorce. I really don't want this to happen and just wanted to know from people how things work. Can she do things that quickly and easily or will they turn her away and advise both of us to go to counselling, like Relate etc? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Ryan

[Concerned reader]

Dear Ryan

The chances are that when your wife visits the solicitors, the first step will be to make an appointment for an initial interview and that will introduce a little breathing space.

At the initial intereview they will take all the family details, work out if you wife is entitled to legal aid, listen to the story and give initial advice on what grounds a divorce could be sought, how long it might take, ask what child care and child support arrangements would be and review the status of major financial holdings (if any) such as the house and pension. There is a lot to get through and it is not an instant process.

Few solicitors of my acquaintance like to see people rushing in to a divorce and anyway their guidelines say they should encourage clients to go to counselling if that is at all possible. But lawyers point out that people don't generally visit them when their marriages are wonderful, so they tend to be speaking to people who are distressed and may not be very receptive to the idea of talking to their spouse.

The Deparment of Constitutional Affairs ('DCA', which replaced the old Lord Chancellor's Department) evaluated counselling and mediation but the test cases did not indicate that it would be advisable to make it compulsory.

So neither your wife nor you can be ordered to go to counselling, but both of you would be encouraged to do so.

By your account, both of you have been angry and shouting. It may be that both of you have said things which, with the benefit of a little time thinking, you wouldn't want to be quoted on.

If you have said anything you may wish to apologise for, then take the initiative to say sorry as this will open a pathway for future communications. There can be a little break between saying sorry and sorting things out, so don't expect everything to be healed up by the evening.

If exchanges between you have been poor for some time and then 'blew up' this morning, clearly something needs resolving. An outside person, such as a Relate counsellor, may be able to help you get constructive communication going. It is very much in your interests to agree to this and you should suggest it. It is much better than 'being at each other's throats'. (The local number is in the phone book).

In summary:

Try not to panic; both of you have more time than you think.

Apologise for shouting. Yes, I know she shouted too (for all I know, she may have started it). Still, apologise first and it will enable a path to open.

Offer to use a counsellor so you both get a chance to 'say your piece' in polite and structured communication.

Identify the actual problems - the counsellor can help you do this. (At first glance it seems like a mixture of things - communication, economics, childcare - so it will take some untangling.)

Tackle the problems one by one. That's the hard part - usually both people have to agree to change behaviours. The counsellor can help identify what needs to change.

It can be done, you can both get better lives from this but there do have to be some changes.

BTW, some critics of govenment policy have argued that the strain in families like yours stems directly from economic policies which penalize women who make the 'stay at home' choice. It is interesting that you mention this about your wife near the top of your posting.

Please note, I'm not making any prescriptions about how individual women should live, I'm only pointing out that your family exists in a wider context and that maybe, just maybe, some of the stress is coming from changing expectations from outside the marriage. Purely a personal comment.

I hope things calm down for you.

[Ryan]

Thank you for that. Well my wife did go to the solicitors and thankfully they saw that she is not willing to give up on everything just yet. They have advised going to counselling of some sort to see if the relationship is better after all the junk has been removed. That is my task for today.

I did apologise in the afternoon and we did start talking again. I did pose the question that if there was nothing else in the world, just us and the children in a blank room would she feel the same? The answer was no. this gives me loads of hope as it indicates that there are external factors that are affecting us, and boy do we have some. We have £15k of debt which we are working through with CAB, our youngest broke her arm about three weeks ago, my wife is trying to find her natural parents, her mum and dad are trying to move closer to us, the car MOT was £500, then the tax due and her work at home has been very stressful. I am hoping that we can sit down with a third person between us and really bash out the truth as to what is bothering both of us. I feel that is the only way to better our relationship.

I do have a further question. My wife keeps talking about us having nothing in common, like hobbies etc. When we first dated, we used to enjoy going to the cinema a lot, playing card games, board games, fun games and listening to music together. My wife keeps iterating to me that these are not really things in common, they're just things we do together. I believe that we all change over time and that interests do change, but is that a reason for giving up on a marriage? I personally feel that as long as there is love and respect, we can learn to accept differing interests as we get older, I mean, when you are younger and both enjoy sky diving, it's not to say that you will still enjoy that when you are 50 etc. Anyway, I suppose my main question is what really keeps a marriage going? Is it Love, Friendship, interests, one or all of them?

Thanks in advance

[Kate]

Dear Ryan

I think that is a fascinating question that you ask. I was talking to some 17 year olds recently and one said they thought it was the commitment of vows that held a long term relationship together and another said it was the quality of a relationship. I actually think they are both right. When things get tough it's about putting the needs of the marriage before our own individual needs at that moment. It's about having a couple perspective on life rather than an individual perspective. (That's worth bearing in mind when you choose a counsellor too. I understand that some couples experience of counselling is that it wasn't as focused on making the relationship work as on helping the individuals.)

Having said that the quality of the relationship will feed the sense of commitment, so I suspect that both factors are important.

Yes we change but surely the secret of marriage is for both of you to keep adapting together to the changes and challenges that come along. At one conference I went to, the experts talked of couples sticking together when they managed to keep their "stories" aligned. I suppose that means how they see life has enough points of contact and agreement for them to have a sense of moving through life together. When your wife talks about not having much in common, I wonder if she is talking at the level of common activities or of common attitudes and values. Sometimes it’s about having a sense of common values and purpose, but we don’t always talk about those things. Much of our conversation can be about things happening in our day rather than our feelings and reactions to what is happening to us, but communication at this deeper level is where we find our sense of being valued and belonging to each other.

One of the sorts of programmes which I believe helps that is marriage enrichment ones like Marriage Encounter. The focus there is on communication skills and on sharing our stories and experience of what it means and feels like to be married to each other.

You have major challenges as you rightly say from external circumstances. I do hope that you can find the way through those.

Kate
:)

[Ryan]

Thank you. I find it very interesting that you mention common values, etc. We are often talking about how to bring the children up, or how to run the house, or what is important to us, and it's almost like we finish each others' sentence. We have almost identical values and beliefs and I think that has helped in a lot of situations.

Going back to a previous comment, the current government policies do indeed penalise women for staying at home. We have found that because of our choice we do not get any help towards childcare, in fact the only thing we do get is Child Tax Credit, which quite frankly doesn't count for much (£41 a month doesn't even pay for shoes for two children, or pay for school activities for a month for two children etc etc). On the other hand, other friends of ours seem to get help with loads of things simply because the wife works part time. Anyway, that's a whole issue in itself I think.

I think as far as actualy activities go, we do have very little in common, but this is down to time. We both would love to sit down and play games or read together or listen to music and watch films, but there just isn't the time in the day to do that as well as sleep.

As far as counselling goes, I am trying to find something that we both feel comfortable with. Like you say it is very easy for me to go off and find a counsellor I feel comfortable with, but it won't matter a hoot if my wife doesn't feel comfortable. At least on this matter we have been emailing and texting to see what each of us would like. Although we are Christians, we don't feel that a pure christian approach would be right at the moment. Some of the conflict in the past has come from that angle, so we would like to avoid it if possible and work on everything else that is wrong.

Thanks.

[Kate]

Sorry - I forgot to put in the link to Marriage Encounter (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/servprov/marenhres/meang/) and similar programmes (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/servprov/datelist.html). Do have a look.

[Concerned reader]

Dear Ryan

I am very pleased to read that you are both willing to sort this difficulty out.

From your description you both have so many things to address that it will take a while to do, especially the debt which is a modern curse. Also, from many accounts it seems to be a long old haul if someone is trying to trace parents and come to terms with the past. A child's broken arm puts a terrible strain on things for a while (you become paranoid about them breaking anything else) but try to remember that the human body is specifically designed to heal and that children do it very fast.

All these things get mixed up and project themselves on one another. It is tempting at times to believe that there could be a magic key, the one which would unlock all the trouble and fix it. If it seemed like ending the marriage would end the problems, well you can see how attractive that would look.

I happen to believe that is an illusion in most cases. The problems might be divided up differently, but that is all. The debt would still be there. Children would have to be cared for, answers to questions would need to be found. Each person would be facing the problems alone and if there is one thing I know about external problems, it is that you stand a better chance of solving them as a partnership.

You've made a very good start by separating the internal problems from the external ones. Look out for each other's backs for a while, concentrate on the external problems, especially the debt. It takes a great deal of restraint to cut spending and to allocate chores so resources are freed-up to do extra paying work. I don't know how you feel about your in-laws moving nearer, but it is often a helpful thing to have extra supportive hands nearby so I hope that works out for you.

You ask what keeps a marriage going? If I knew that I'd sell the answer and be off with my millions paid by a grateful nation.

However, you will be able to find out in your own case by staying married and sorting out these problems. It may be that once you have been through this together you will both feel very differently than you do at the moment.

It may be an interesting exercise for you both to write down private letters to yourselves which you date and seal, saying how each of you feels. You should not show these to each other - they are purely for a private note. Then, a year from now, open the letters in private and see if you feel the same in the light of experience.

(BTW, I was once very surprised to find that although I thought I had endured a miserable holiday, when I looked back at the holiday diary and photos, either I had enjoyed myself or I had somebody else's album. For some reason, my memory had focussed on the few bad things and discounted all the good ones. How a thing was and how you remember it can be different things.)

Wishing you all the best.

[Ryan]

Many thanks for the upbeat advice. Without bringing everything down, part of the problem is that do not have family around to help with the children etc. The friends we have are very restricted for babysitting as they have their own kids as well.

There are so many issues for us to deal with, I think we need that third person in between to keep the conversation calm whilst we air our honest views. I know there have been many things I have bottled up to keep the peace as I know my wife has done the same. It is very easy to say that we should be honest with each other, but when things could hurt the other partner you tend to do a quick assesment and figure that you can keep it quiet for a peaceful life. Obviously what happens is that it builds up to the point where we are now. We simply have to face this whole mountain of built up feelings in true honesty and hope that the third person can keep the peace whilst we do it.

Looking back over the years it is very true what you say. I seemed to remember that we had all this crap a year or so ago, but thinking really carefully, there were some real good times. Funny how our minds focus on the bad/negative all the time. I guess what they say about humans being self-destructive is very true. The challenge is to cut the right wire and hope that we don't blow each other up!

Thanks.

[Ryan]

Well things have improved ever so slightly, but, we are bothing walking around on the most delicate eggshells ever. I have booked an initial evaluation session with a counsellor for both of us. The only trouble is that the earliest appointment is over a week away. I don't know if we can manage that long, just pray to God that we do. I fear that any little thing might spark an argument and that would be the end. I think she would take things much further before even getting to counselling.

I have been trying to rekindle the feelings between us by letting her know how much I care and also by trying to be patient and nice around her. I dearly love my wife and would hate to lose her, I just hope that God can answer my challenge and I trully hope that we will come out of this much stronger.

Anyway, any advice would be greatly appreciated. We have literally no money so any free resources etc would be great. I have been trying to find books in the library and e-books on the net, but most things cost.

Anyway, please pray for us.

[Concerned reader]

Dear Ryan

It's good that you both are working together on this thing. Your W may be as anxious to avoid a spat as you are.

From what I remember of tiny children, two year olds wake up five times a night and want to push you out of your bed, while four-year olds have all the strength they need to explore the world and not a scrap of sense to go with it. It was absolutely exhausting.

I don't know how you usually divide childcare; two year olds usually have a higher dependence on mum, but it is easier for dad to divert a four year old.
This will get some of the pressure off your wife.

Freebie games include:

'Night Train' where you use the dining chairs covered in a blanket to make 'sleeper carriages' and spend hours making train noises and collecting the fares.

'Den building' where you build dens out of blankets and cushions from the couch

'Quiz Show' where the child is the host of a quiz show and you are a contestant. Don't get worried about the format of the show - the children rarely care, they just like to pretend they are on camera. Remember to clap. Most of the game is entrances and exits, but wriggle under a blanket and pretend to be unable to find your way out before the buzzer goes. (You make the sound of a buzzer).

Most children have toys they don't get to play with, so now is a chance to go through those and squeeze out some play value. Usually, somebody tidying up the toys is greatly appreciated.

The childrens' library will be open on Saturday morning and the noticeboards often list free attractions. With luck the weather will be fine, so you can go to the park and take your lunch-time sandwich with a thermos of tea. Packing the lunch can be a game in itself.

I can't stress this enough - YOU are responsible for clearing up. Your wife may be worried about this, so say at the beginning that you intend to take full responsibility for putting everything away afterwards.

Be prepared to be barked at and try to let it go past. The time for harder talking will be your appointment, when there are no children present. The reason why I am concentrating on childcare is based on guessing that this is going to be an issue which your wife raises. (I could be wrong about this). Doing childcare is a practical way to demonstrate to your wife that you are serious about the marriage; children are joined so closely to women that if you show care for the child it will be automatically understood as caring for the woman.

It is good also that you are getting the finances under control.

A week of enjoying playing with the children is a good thing to grab. They don't last forever, although when you have them it seems never-ending. The problems can wait a few days; they will still be there when you both come back to them.

Wishing you all the best this week

[Ryan]

Many thanks for that. I do in fact help quite a lot with the children. Sometimes it can even be a cause for argument as the kids to come to me, especially our youngest. The games you suggest are great, I think as adults we forget just how much kids want to play with dens and hidey holes. I will definitely try them.

The meeting will come round quick enough, I know that, it's just keeping the peace to get there. We have actually been working together on the housework and things seem to be calming, although there is a definite sense of eggshells in the house.

Anyway, I will keep hope in God, play some games and keep being nice to my wife.

[Ryan]

Well it would appear that the eggshells have given way to a huge row!! One thing that people had been giving advice on was to be totally honest with each other and let each other know how we felt about things. we brought up the issue of time and the amount we simply don't have.
My wife felt that this was an indication to finish one of her hobbies (rabbit breeding) and now it appears that I am the most evil sod on earth for having done this. I am only concerned for my wife and the time she has to do things. She currently works as an Avon rep and sales leader, looks after and walks our two kiddies to school everyday, tries to do things with her card hobby and also tries to get some stuff done around the house. Now with 10 double hutches to clean out each week as well, I think it is fair to say that I felt she didn't have the time to work on everything.
Anyway, the rabbits look as thought they are going this weekend, the argument ended up in a wine glass headed towards my head and her rings are now sitting on a shelf in the bathroom. We are in tatters and we have counselling to go to Thursday and I just don't know how we are going to make it. I feel really disillusioned, heartbroken and really feel for my wife, even though I seem to be the punchbag and the cause of all problems by her rule book.

Anyway, if anyone knows how to end life painlessly, please let me know.

One very very sad heartbroken individual. :((

[Concerned Reader]

Dear Ryan

I'm guessing, but those rabbits mean a lot more than just breeding livestock. Giving them up, however sensible, is like surrendering a farm, a dream of a way out of money problems and, besides, they are cute and almost count as therapy.

Of course your W should not have reacted like that, but she needs you right now to show that you understand how painful it is to acknowledge limits. Personally, I'd have given up the cards, but she knows her own businesses best.

Try not to get too hung up about the rings; it is more the situation, the pressure, the money problems, the frantic juggling of committments that she is rejecting.

Oh, it may be something to do with you, but there are just so many other issues here that you are only one of the factors - and possibly a minor one. But you have a face and a name and it is tempting to believe that by 'solving' you it will solve all the problems at a stroke. It won't. At best both she and you will get a whole new set of problems to divert you.

But no more flying objects - explain that you will not tolerate that. If she wants to punch something, there are soft furnishings which cannot be hurt.

No more honesty now until the counsellor is in the room, but if you can find it in your heart to whisper 'I'm sorry this is all so difficult', that should be safe enough.

Get some rest.

[Ryan]

Hi,
The dream of making money from them is just that. Against popular belief, rabbit breeding does not make very much money at all. Most breeders who are honest will tell you that the sale of rabbits, show wins etc barely cover the cost of looking after them.

I can appreciate that they mean a lot to her. I don't think that I have ever said that she must give them up. Admittedly, I have not made it easy for my wife to pay full attention to the rabbits, but then I feel that the kids and myself should have the time more than the rabbits, would you not agree? I have tried to explain that it is nothing to do with the rabbits per se, it's more to do with the amount of things to do in the day and the sheer lack of time that 24hrs covers. I am worried about her health physically and mentally because she doesn't have the time to sit down properly. When she first started with the rabbits, it was good because I could see the enjoyment she was getting from it, but as time went by, she found it to be more of a chore to fit in with other demanding things.

This is just one of many things that we argue about and if I am honest its part jealeousy, part money and part time on my side. I find it very difficult to let my wife do loads of hobbies and take up time that is precious. She has said that I should take up something, but whenever I try to think of something, there is always a hurdle - I have no money to do anything, the time is taken up whilst she does her hobby or work, or the time is taken up with the children. I do not actually do anything for myself (or at least it feels that way), and I suppose that is where some of the problem lies. I then feel hard done by because my wife is off trying to enjoy a hobby whilst I am left stranded not able to do anything. Whenever we try to find a compromise things blow up and we end up arguing.

All I would like is to have my wife, a little time and some relaxation together. I know it is difficult with children around, but there must be something somewhere.

Anyway, enough ranting and raving, I'll go and crawl into my corner again.

[Concerned Reader]

Dear Ryan

You are not ranting and raving.

You are articulating clearly and carefully the things you will need to discuss later. This is rehearsal and it is fine.

It recognizes that on the one hand, some interests are legitimate and on the other hand that there do have to be negotiated limits otherwise the joy of having children or being married is lost.

Sensible people ought to be able to figure out a balance and if it is going too far out of whack, it is reasonable for you to point this out.

From observation, I have noticed that people with an entrepreneurial streak - and your W probably has that - are fantastically energetic until they collapse. When they get it right, we all clap hands as they get Business Woman Of the Year Awards or whatever.

Unfortunately, I've seen it all too often go the other way when they get too far in over their heads and just do not look at the accountancy, which often indicates they would be better off with an evening shift at Tesco. Their whole identity becomes dependent on a questionable view of what it means to be a successful business person.

For reasons of risk-aversion (and access to start-up funding), it is more often men than women who get in to this tangle. It is not unheard of, though, as cautionary figures such as Martha Lane-Fox show. Some entrepreneurs complain that the business regime in this country is set against them, and some of them have good reasons to complain. Others are just do not want to look at the reasons for business failure because they see it not as a neutral matter of assessing a project, but as if their whole soul is being judged.

You don't need to crawl in to a corner; calm rationality is needed most of all in a world where either of you fancies to make a go of a small business. If you are fair and sure that your statements are about the reality of a project rather than a dose of negativity (which is a bias in the other direction to over-optimism) then your contribution is valuable - even if not particularly welcomed.

Out of interest, have you ever thought of taking a workshop on running your own business? If you are the sort of person who can wrestle a debt to the ground and bear to look a set of accounts full in the face (which you seem to be) you might do very well.

[Ryan]

Thanks for that, some very good points in there. My wife is indeed one who likes to strive full on to get a job or project done just right. I believe my wife would love to make a go of her career, but in todays' society it is extremely tough to keep going when childcare costs so much. We have looked at the figures before and for a decent accountancy job less the childcare costs plus benefits would leave her with a take home pay of £50-£100 per month. Hardly the motivation to further your career is it. Further to this, there are very few employers that will allow large amounts of time off for children. All these factors add up to make life very difficult if you want to go back to work.

My wife does indeed take it very personal if a project or business idea fails. She sees it as a personal failure and that it is something she can never do again. I can't understand why this is, it is just the way she is.

I really do hope that we can sort things out, our first 'Evaluation' session is tomorrow afternoon and things are very emotional in the house, understandably. Fingers crossed, and hope that we can come through for each other.