Sexless marriage

[Jimmy]

I don't know what to do.

15 years of marriage and we seem to be going round and round in circles. Our sex life has never been good. There have always been reasons for this. Initially it was pain. There have been lots of headaches, tiredness, stress etc. These days 'the fact' that I only treat her well when we have sex seems to be the main reason that we only very rarely do. It's something that happens only once every couple of months. And that's the way it has been for most of the last 15 years. In fact our 'record' is 15 months, from the time of the conception of our third child until she was 6 months old. No - it was just as bad before the children arrived!!

My wife becomes very angry and accusing whenever I try to discuss the issue with her. She flat refuses to have any counselling. She does not consider that we have a problem. The only problem is that 'if we don't have sex I treat her like sh**.' I wish it was this simple. I really believe it is an issue of sexual compatability, of very different expectations, drives, needs, priorities. It is something that really matters to me. It does not seem to matter to her.

I don't belive that I treat my wife poorly. I have become frustrated and show my disappointment at the constant rejection. But I value our friendship - but want much more from my wife than just friendship. I value our three wonderful children and the successful family unit that we are in so many ways. I love my wife and she loves me, I do not doubt that. I have been unwaveringly faithful to her. But the pain that this situation inflicts really hurts me. My inability to change the situation through discussion, romance, care, concern or anything is a source of enormous ongoing, almost obsessive, frustration. I fear that I yearn for something that we will never have.

I have suggested counselling , done the little things, do a lot around the house, been the romantic, tried to talk, expressed my frustration and yes become frustrated and at times cold. But this is just a human reaction to the situation.

I feel cornered. Any advice? Thanks............

[Dave]

Hi Jimmy,


Your problem is not as uncommon as you may think.

You might find Michele Weiner Davis book "The sex starved marriage" (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/books/sexstarved/) helpful. There is also a very good section in our Mariage First Aid section (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/marriageclinic/marfirstaid/index14.html) on this.

Hope this helps

Dave

[Jimmy]

Thanks Dave.

I read the section you referred to from the site and much of what was said rang very true to me. The reference to 'underdeveloped sexuality' is I think true to an extent. The fact that I could never see my wife agreeing to the 'interventions' described and the courses of action detailed is probably testament to that.

But much of the description of unequal drives, described in the scenaios, also seemed very familiar.

I don't want it to sound as though it has got nothing to do with me, but I think all of the advice given is predicated on the premise that both partners agree that there is a problem that needs addressing. In our case my wife does not seem willing to come to that point. This leaves me in the position that I wonder what I can do. I know it takes two to tango, and I used to blame myself terribly for the situation (I have given that up!), but my wife does not seem to want to accept that this is something that must be addressed.

I am at the stage that I am thinking that I have a problem without a solution, because any solution requires action on both sides.

Thanks again. Will look up the book you referred to.

[Been there!]

This might not be the most sensitive and optomistic of things to say Jimmy, but I think you need a reality check.

If your marriage history is how you describe it, then after 15 years you can't really expect things to change much. Believe me - I'm living it!!

In the end you have to get over it, accept it or move on..

If the cost of moving on is too high and it sounds like you think it is, then accept it and live with it. Sounds harsh -but that's how it is. You just have to find ways to cope. It might be masturbation, films, magazines etc. Accept responsibity for your situation, frustration etc. , and take steps to address it. ..... Make it your personal problem, not your collective marriage problem and deal with it as such.

This is my humble opinion, based on very similar experience. In the end it's about coping.... Sometimes you have to settle for less than perfect.

Good luck Jimmy. I know what you are going through!!

[snakedriver]

Yup, I have learned much the same thing Been There. It hurts to be told that something that is such a big issue involving you both is solely your problem. Just be careful, I turned to porn, never hid it, never got extreme about it. She led me to believe that she was understanding about it, but eventually it turned into a divorce level thing all its own. She recently told me her honest feelings on it, and again its all my fault. So take stock, decide how important it really is, and make her be honest with you if you decide to look for other outlets. Porn only made me feel worse about things anyway. Seeing what I really wanted to have with my wife all the time and then not being able to fulfill those desires sucks. I myself have decided to suck it up and try and make it a non issue. We have much together other than sex, thankfully. Best of luck.

[SH Jack]

Well, Ive been and am there guys.

Although the gaps intween sex between me and my wife are that long, I thin the longest is 2 months. Whilst I agree there are more important things to worry about, there is also the closeness that to people share with it.

As for other outlets well I have a vivid imagination there is nothing lie the real thing.

I do think at first that because of my wifes lac of interest that she was having an affair. However, after a reality check it was nonsense. I have complained about it to her, and she turned it round to all being my fault.

If I made the first move it appears that Ive only one thingon the brain, however if I wanting my wife to initiate sex then I would have to wait......and wait.... and wait.

So what is the solution. there is a solution to this, I dont believe that there isnt. It is a pretty pathetic diviorce issue, as my wife is the innocent party.

I dont now about you guys, but the battle cry of the sex starved husband "Im only human, I have wants and needs !!"

The one outlet that I wouldnt dream of pursuing is the affair, Not a chance. I love my wife to much.

I just wish that sometimes.......

[Gals Suffer Too]

I'm going the same thing as you Guys believe it or not. Over the years I've been told......... People don't die from lack of sex or it's not such a big thing ( no puns) or just live with it. When we first got married it was everyday then it dwindled. I tried everything I could think of and read every book. He told me he didn't have a very good imagination, which is true so I told him we could use mine, but he never liked anything. He keeps saying the same thing about not having a clue and no imagination but he won't try to sort this out. Now we don't even go near each other. I was told to like it or lump it and to be honest I found it easier to lump it.
Hope you guys have better luck.
Jo

[No desire]

I have virtually no sex drive and could go quite happily without it for several months but my HB would like it at least twice a week and loves spontineity.

I love him, fancy him but just don't seem to have any drive at all but this is not new, I have always been like this.

The trouble is my HB has had enough and now wants to split because he says the spark has gone. One example he used was that he misses "getting ready on a Saturday night and 30 mins before going out the door gazing at each other across the room and suddenly having mad passionate sex before you go out"!

I have to admit, when he said this all i could think of "but my hair would be messed up!". We have never been this way and he has been in relationships where this would happen.

I would love to have this "spark" and as I said before, its not that I don't fancy him, he has a great body and is fab in bed. I just don't get the urges.

Please, any advise would be useful as I think I could lose my HB over this - is it possible to change this or should I accept that we want different things? I really love my HB and the thought of losing him is tearing me apart.

Any advise would be great.

Thanks

[Kate]

Dear No Desire



Quite a few women struggle with lack of sex drive and spontaneity. For some women it's all the time, for others it's when they are tired or under pressure.



Some women just need some time and the right atmosphere to get in the mood and to relax.



It is possible to coach yourself into being the one to make the first move. Why not think about some ways you could surprise your husband. Lay in wait for him in bed when he comes home from work if you get home first. Set up a romantic setting, a candle lit meal, buy some new lingerie. I suspect that if you can get past worrying about whether your hair is going to get messed up and think of having some fun together, you might be able to have some fun.



I certainly found in the past that I suffered from lethargy - I just couldn't be bothered. it was too much effort and then I realised how selfish that was and what we were missing and started to make an effort. I surprised myself that I enjoyed it too!



I wouldn’t worry too much about comparing yourself with other lovers your husband may have had. It’s you he’s with now. Why not see what you can do to show him how you can be fun and spontaneous, and don’t forget to tell him what helps to get you in the mood. If he ignores you all day and then expects you to get all amorous at the drop of a hat that’s not fair. Why not challenge him to be attentive all through the day then you just might be ready to play when he least expects it. It takes two of you to make the fun happen.



If you want any more tips, why not look at the section on the site ( http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/healthsex/) about this.



Kate
;)

[No Desire]

Kate,

Thanks for your post - it's good to get another womens point of view.

Everything you say is so true - I also feel that I just can't be bothered and now know that it is a case of physically making the effort and stop being so selfish. I am also going to visit the Docs on Friday to get a check up.

Unfortunately for me it seems that I am too late. As I said in my post, this is the not the first time my HB had threatened to leave over this but stupidly I did nothing about it.

Since he said he wanted to leave, I have been managing to hold it together quite well in front of him, appearing very positive and rationally talking about how the financials would be split etc. He is sleeping in our spare room and what he doesn't know is that I cry myself to sleep and then wake up crying.......

Anyway, last night, out of the blue, he turned down the telly and started to comment on how well I was taking it. He then turned angry and said that I did realise that under no circumstances was he going to change his mind this time, that he had had enough and he wanted to make it absolutely clear that he would leaving in the New Year, just in case I was under any illusion. He said nothing I could do would change his mind..... He said that having a sexual relationship was so important to him that he couldn't risk "trying again" and for nothing to change. In fact he would rather live on his own and struggle financially than be in an non loving relationship.

With this, i cracked and the tears started flowing....... I said I understood why he felt that way and restated that I do love him/fancy him and said that I never meant to make him feel so unloved (he comes from a disrupted family that never showed any love).

The worst part is that I know that I could have done something to prevent this but never did and now it is too late.......

He is very adamant, but is also being nice about the whole thing saying he hates to see me upset but he has to do this for his own sake. He also said that I need to sort myself out or otherwise I will find myself in the same situation with someone else. And he is right.

So, here I am, feeling very sorry for myself, not knowing how I am going to cope without him. Yes I am an independant person but what's the point if you have no-one to share things with. I am currently off work cause I can't seem to hold it together for more than a couple of hours without crying at the mo.

With Xmas round the corner, things seem even harder. I have already bought his pressies but last night he said, don't bother with any pressies for me......... Another kick in the stomach.

Its funny but the little things seem to be so important now. Like putting up the tree together - this won't happen this year. Who will I kiss and wish a happy new year?! The sun is shining this morning and as I was walking around the house I kept thinking it is a beautiful day - how dare the sun shine whilst i feel so bad. I can't stop thinking about how things will change; I will be so lonely in the evenings; what will I do on my days off etc etc and the thought of being alone scares me so much. I do not want to "play the field" again. I cant bear the thought of meeting new people/men - I am scared I am going to be become a sad lonely old person - and it was all my own fault.

I have not told any family yet - can't face it at the mo and feel very much a failure.

A couple of colleagues know but as we moved to a new location just over a year ago, neither of us have any friends.

He's going out with some of his work colleagues at the weekend and will be away all weekend and is really looking forward to it. I can't even think of going out.

Sorry, I have vented far too long but I find it really helps to write things down.

I know everyone here is in the same boat and we have to just on with it but it so hard.....

[creative]

I just came across this conversation and had to add my story. I married my first boyfriend when I was 18. We've had three children and have now been married for 38 years. Most of those years (all?) I've been lonely. My h is prone to depression, which has worsened as he's grown older, and I know that's a big factor. My loneliness is not just for companionship, it's for any contact --touching, talking, cuddling --sex-- I've been on a starvation diet for too long. As long as I had young children to concentrate on and relate to, I could fool myself (I seem pretty skilled in that!) into creating a "picture perfect" marriage and family life. The trouble is, it was just that --the outside picture. Sex to him was always something to get over with as quickly as possible, before he was too tired. It was never about my pleasure. This was at its best --and as the years went by it became less and less frequent. I now have not had even this unsatisfying sex in over 10 (maybe nearer to 15) years.
I've urged him to seek counselling, which he has done a bit, we've done a Marriage Encounter --which seemed promising until we got home... I've bought many books which he reads for a couple of pages and then forgets... He is just not motivated. Now he will say without the slightest twinge of guilt "I just don't have any sex drive!" --but he seems to feel no responsibility for my frustration.
It all came to a "moment of truth" nearly a year ago, when it came out that he has been a closet alcoholic all these years --and that he has harboured secret resentments toward me and all that I thought we shared. I have obviously been living in my own little fantasy, thinking that somehow I could solve this problem and we'd be the loving couple I've pretended to be all these years.
At that something just died in me --I no longer feel any hope of loving him. I don't wish him ill --we've shared life for most of our lives-- but for my own chance of happiness, I feel we have to part. Now, I've talked to him about it three times (not easy for me to bring up) --and each time he goes into denial within a day and seems to think that if he doesn't say anything I'll just keep plodding along as usual.
I'm feeling so hopeless about my future.
I am mad at myself for staying in this relationship until now --at the age 0f 56-- when I don't feel attractive anymore. (people say I look more like I'm in my 40's, but still... I'm saggy and baggy and no spring chicken)
I have had no sexual experience but this one man --and can't imagine even how to flirt.

[ChristineV]

Wow!! I really thought I was in this all by myself, but as I read all your stories it does not do by heart good to see that there may not be a pleasant way out of my very similar situation. My husband and I have been married for 23 years and at the start and for the first 5-10 years he was the one with the high sex drive, it has only been in the last 7 years or so that the frequency of our sexual encounter has dwindled to 1-2 times a month if I'm lucky. The longest we have gone without having sex has been 3 months and that was only because I was determine to have him make the first move, he did not, so I couldn't stand it any longer and finally approached him. About every month or so I get so frustrated that I confronted him about our situation and I usually get the same story, he is not in the mood, tired, not enough sleep, whatever he can think of. I could maybe handle our situation if our sex life was like this in the beginning, but to have this drastic change is unbearable. I had contributed the gradual decline to having teenagers in the house, lack of time and simply our getting older, but to have it drop off so much and for my husband to not seem concern about it leave we at a crossroad. Like a few of you, I love my spouse and can't imagine living without him, but am I expected to live the remainder of my live with little or no sex. I am fully ready for the day when we are in our seventies and have one or both of us agree that maybe it was time to put that part of our lives on the back burner but not while we are in our forties. I keep hoping that someday soon whatever funk my husband is in will clear and the man that love to have sex will take advantage of my sexual peak, before it becomes to late. I am glad I found this discussion page, It is at least helping me to realize that others are sturggling with the same issue and are fighting to keep their marriage in tack.

[Alll Woman]

Oh thankyou Lord!!

I'm only 27 and married 4 months but my libido has emigrated and doesn't show any signs of coming back!
I felt like I was a weirdo as my H is LUUURRVEEELY (and has a very high drive) but I just don't feel like it.

I admit there's a problem and I do feel very pressured when he gets 'fruity', so I suggested counselling. HE wouldn't go!!!
You can't win !

I'm hoping that with the right herbal remedies to help me along (and they DO work!) and a bit of willpower I can overcome this and resume the great 'relation'ship we had before.

[matthew]

this note comes from a few months of anguish with my wife. We have been married for 5 and a half years and have two kids. emily was born last May and max is nearly 3. Last october my wife said she was finding it difficult to be intimate with me. my first reaction was "Is this the end?". when she broke this too me tha t it wasn't the same I was devastated, completely adrift. What did i tall mean?

we were in the midle of moving house after having spent a long time getting the house ready to be sold and then the actual process which took 6 months. This combined wit hthe birth of our daughter led to a busy year. she has completely closed down to me on an intimacy level. we still kiss but she wont use her tongue as its too intimate. we have not had sex since last October and the nwas whe ni last made her orgasm. it was the last time she let me touch her.

my problem is not knowing how to help her find her love for me again. my intial reaction was to be in her face and to assume the worse-that this was the end. since thne ihave worked hard at being happy and unpressuring towards her. but it's so hard to balance that when the woman you love is emotionally miles away from you. prior to October we had sex once a month which was fine and we would be intimate in other ways. Since she has said she has intimacy issues I have wanted her love and affection more. now i'm like a man possessed as i cant have it anymore.

i am a christian and dont belive tha tGod wants us to be apart, because why get tgethe rin the first place. I dont believe it's right to split up our family unit which i love.

i'm also a realist and know tha t somethings do break down bu t i do believe in the power of love and god's love and of my wifes love.

i have been openly devastated by all of this and cant help but cry and break down in front of her.

My problem is that I can't give her space to find her true heart for me-because ive become so insecure. i need reassurance that she cant give me which makes me worse. So she then feels more guilty for upsetting me and i cant help but talk about the end of the relationship and different options. Hoping tha tit would scare her but now shes thinking about some of them and i'm so scared. I am my own worse enemy.

I don't want a world without her and iwant her to be happy but my broken heart is getting in her way.

can anyone help or offer advice

matthew

[Lovey]

Matthew, your wife has to want to get that intimacy back. I think that she could do it if she wanted to. Training yourself to get back that intimacy can take time but when it's back, she will see it's all worth it.

When I was upset with my H over masturbating to porn, I put up a wall. I didn't want to let him in, because I was afraid to get hurt again (He kept doing it then hiding it) and afraid of more lies and feeling stupid for letting him in.

Eventually we've made lots of headway and I realised that I had stopped kissing him with my tongue, letting him kiss my breasts, and stopped a few other things like that after I felt that he was a liar and a sneak. It was due to trust.

Intimacy = trust. I believe that she has an issue with trust and that you guys, if you go into some counselling, can get help for it as we did. We're still waiting for counselling but I've done my own ... daily I remind myself how much I love him and why. I remember our wedding day, our courtship, and I remember the little things he does for me daily.
If your wife focuses on you and what you mean to her, maybe she will get back that lost trust. :)
I don't know if I'm way off base but I try to help if I can.

[matthew]

thank you for your kind words-they are helpful and it's good to hear other people searching for solutions.

So thank you and in anticipation of anyone else who has kind words.

A problem shared

matthew

[Dave]

Hi Matthew,

The problem you recount is a very common one - pressures build up, and one spouse's desire dies.

I think the first thing to remember is that sexual activity levels are often a good barometer of the closeness in the overall relationship - what you both need is some space together to find a new way forward that works for both of you in your marriage. Like any motor, once in a while it needs a service. Why not book yourselves onto a Marriage Enrichment weekend (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/servprov/datelist.html)? This is the equivalent to going to a Health Club for your relationship - it doesn't mean anything's broken - just that you both deserve some pampering for a change!!

Secondly you might have a look at the book The sex starved marriage (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/books/sexstarved/) - it's packed full of practical advice on what to do in your situation.

Have you talked to your wife about your feelings?? Have you described for her how you feel physically and emotionally?? You need to think about when, where and how you do this - remember your feelings are your responsibility - they are a result of who you are, of how your body feels etc. As long as you communicate responsibly you should be able to then discuss how she feels, and perhaps come up with some strategies at least to relieve your physical frustration.

Lastly, I commend you for your commitment and decision not to walk away. Marriage is much more than just a sexual relationship, and you are right to stand by your promises. As a Christian you need to remember that your security and significance don't come from your wife, or from work, hobbies, or the myriad of places we all lok for them, they come from the fact that God loves you as a child, and has a purpose and a role for you. If you stand in that truth then the struggles of the present will be bearable.

Keep in touch

Dave

[Matthew]

Dave, thank you, what great words. Some real things to talk about. I have talked to my wife about my needs but she feels guilty about how lacking in intimacy she feels so her guilt stops her from touching me as often as i would like. She hates what she is putting me through but feels powerless to help as any help would not be genuinely heartfelt. I dont think she can look past how much hurt she has caused me.

The crux of the problem tonight would seem to be she wont even try things as she things i will want sex or intimacy of anyway shape or from. All i want is to be held-the rest is mostly bollox.(Scuse my language) yes i need release but what i need more is to be held.

I suppose its because holding me is like holding damaged good, damaged goods are fractured and not as they should and dangerous. Its also hard to hold damaged goods when you know you broke them. Its all about guilt.

I dont believe love can jus tvanish like that and i dont believe everything in life is easy-thats wh ywe need prayer. Without pain we dont know pleasure without dark we cant know light.

Its being on the receivingend of such pure rejection or rather pure isolation-i dont want to paint her as the bad girl i jus twant her to witness the joy we once had and how fulfilling we were for each other.

I want to get away from this broken man i am and show here the rock that lies beneath-ultimately i know love and intimacy can be healed by Jesus. I just need prayerand advice.

Oh to feel the hand of God and to see my wife smile and feel her passion again.

matthew

[bico909]

This really sucks. My wife and I are 25 years old and have a wonderful, loving, emotionally intimate marriage. We use to have sex twice a day, at least. Now it's once a week if I ask for it repeatedly, out of her sense of duty. If I waited for her to initiate I am confident it would be never. Never sex, never a kiss with tongue, nothing more than a peck on the lips. We've talked about it many times and she says she fells terrible about it, it has nothing to do with me, etc., but nothing changes. I've gotten books and, although she says she wants to work on the problem, she won't even look at them. She seems totally content with our marriage and our life, and I don't want to rock the boat, but sexual intimacy with my wife is a rather important thing to me. I don't know what to do. She loves me and is attracted to me, I'm certain, but has absolutely ZERO sex drive. I know it isn't because of other parts of our lives, either. I treat her lovingly, do well more than half of the housework, listen to/support her, etc., everything I believe a good husband can do. Is there no hope? I don't want to substitute physical intimacy for porn and masturbation; I want my wife.

[matthew]

it's`awful and i really feel for you. Most things change after a while and sex is often one of them but it's only one part of your relationship. i know whatit's like to have a high sex drive the more i think about it the more it seems normal for a bloke. i to could have sex twice a day. I think maybe sex for women is different. I'm currently experiencing intimacy issues with my wife and know about all this. Are your a Christian?

The sex desire of women can ebb and flow more so tahn the biological necessity of a mans needs. isuppose most blokes liketo orgasm once a day since the first time they came-so about 14. this isnt the same for women. men express there emotions through sex, women are a lot more complicated.

youre not going mad with such a high level of desire-you arenormal in my experience. Hang on in there buddy. also maybe your wife has issuesand that sex is actually making the problem worse.

matthew

[Kate]

Bico
Relate (http://www.relate.org.uk/sexproblems/) have some helpful advice for those who wish their sexual relationship was better. There are also articles here (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/marriageclinic/diffsex/) on our site. The causes of difficulties in this area are very varied for different couples. I hope you can find something in these resources to help you begin to talk things through with your wife.


Kate

[STARLITE59]

i just found this place and i am so surprised that i am not the only one with the same problem my husband is 65 and i am 45 we have been married for 25 years
he is a very quiet man that treats me with respect and lots of love but no sex
unless i complain and then he will be ok for about a week and go back to nothing
until i complain again and i am really tired of being angry with him if i dont say anthing to him it will be months before we have sex.
i love him very much but i am at the end of my rope that i am condering divorce
i dont know if its the age diffrence between us or what he looks great for a man
his age.
is there anyone out there married to an older man with similar problems?

[RyanL]

You can get the sex back in a sexless marriage even after years of no physical contact. My wife and I went over 12 years without sex and we managed to start again. It's not great sex but she is now happier than I've seen her in years and I now realize that despite the fact I don't really enjoy it, making her happy is what's important.

[Liz]

Dear Starlite,

Sexual interest does change with age. There are some books on how to respond to these changes here (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/marriageclinic/diffpressures/lateryears/) on the site

Liz :)

[STARLITE59]

Liz,
thank you for your reply i talked yo my husband about our problem and he finally said that
he was having a problem with getting an erection i asked him to go to the doctor and he totally refused he is embarassed to tell the doctor.
i guess i dont have a choice and i have to learn to live with out i really love him and dont want to leave him because of this.
i dont know any men that are 65 and over to figure out if this is normal for a man his age i
know he works really hard and is also very tired.

thank you and God Bless.

[Liz]

Hi Starlite

He is not alone. It is quite common and can be affected by all sorts of things as well as age such as medication, smoking etc. There is a really helpful web site here (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/php-bin/jump.php?linkid=90) where you can find out more, including a page for partners. Why not have a look so you can understand what he is facing and how you can face it together.

Liz
:)

[STARLITE59]

thanks again Liz i will read it and hopefully it will give me a better understanding
on this problem instead of thinking that its maybe me he doesnt find attractive
anymore.:o

[JACK]

STARLITE:

HIS reasons for watching porn are different from what you think. That's why, when a woman confronts her man the porn, and says she feels insecure and her self esteem is suffering, that the guy looks at her in amazment not really understanding what she means. Men are able to seperate and compartmentalize porn from the real relationship in their lives and look at both as totally different things.

There is a reason for this other than men's genetics. The sexual experience of masturbation to porn IS totally a totally different than intercourse with a partner. It is a private time for him. He is in a fantasy, the feel of his own hand couldn't be more different from a vagina. Many say the orgasm is far more intense. So you can see why, for men, comparing partner sex and porn/masturbation is like comparing apples and oranges. Men don't understand why women take it so personally because they like to put everything in it's own box. Pure sex in one, sex with someone you care about with feelings involved in another. They see their porn time and their wife or girlfriend time as two unrelated aspects of their lives.

The one exception is when a guy comes to prefer porn over partner sex.
That's when the woman would be totally justified in feeling hurt, angry and, depending on the strength of her self esteem, not able to measure up to the porno girls. But even in these cases it is usually more about the guy and his addiction than the desireabilty of the woman in his life.