Christian Marriage Sex Forum

[super_anon_man]

There are a few discussion boards available that are devoted to the subject of sex in Christian marriage. They discuss marital issues as well as candid sexual issues to help people and increase marital intimacy. The message boards basically teach people how to have better sex in marriage "as God intends it". I was wondering what the perspective of the Bible is on such discusssions. Is it morally wrong to discuss sexual behavior in marriage? Is it wrong to give sexual advice in the context of Christian marriage?

Please provide scriptures both supporting and condemning such discussion boards.

Here is a Christian site called The Marriage Bed that has such a forum:

TheMarriageBed.com (http://www.themarriagebed.com)

[Liz]

Dear Super anon Man

Thank you for your questions. I wonder what has prompted them. Have you struggled with the site you quote or are you recommending it? If the latter perhaps you could contact us by email so we can consider whether we should add an official link.

If you are concerned about what they are doing perhaps you could have a look through their basis of faith and their aim for the site, both of which are quite clearly stated.

Sexual intimacy between husband and wife should be something that is private in one sense and I would say that is clearly taught in the bible. The dangers of slipping into pornography and people wishing to enquire into sexual activity for the wrong reasons are very real. On the other hand God made sex for man and woman within the commitment of marriage and what he has made is good and healthy when properly used. Sometimes people need to ask questions when they are struggling with problems in their sex life and the internet offers a unique and confidential place to look for that information. Unfortunately it as also accessible to anyone including children, so care has to be taken what information to put onto the net.

If you want a good book on intmacy for Christians, you might look at The Act of Marriage (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/healthsex/actofmar/) and Intended for Pleasure (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/healthsex/intendpleas/).

With best wishes

Liz

[Raymond]

Where have the people gone on this forum. It feels like a graveyard. I have a good sex life, but suffer from fantasies on spanking. While I continually fight this as there is no useful outlet in marriage it is difficult to kill. I go for weeks without thinking about it much, then I notice something about it which sets me off again. I have had this since I was about thirteen. Does anyone have any answers for it or is it just a case of resisting temptation in the mind. It's no longer tasteful to get my wife to do it to me. I've tried doing it to her softly which she doesn't mind.

Don't get me wrong I can handle it but was wondering whether anyone else is struggling with this problem.

[perfectmarriage]

Raymond, I'm not a Christian so I hesitate to post in a thread called 'Christian Marriage Sex Forum' but...

What is so wrong about fantasising about spanking? If your wife doesn't mind, what's the problem? Why not share your fantasies with her? You don't necessarily have to act out all your fantasies, but it might be possible to go further than you have already.

Perhaps you will do more harm than good by bottling this up.

Ed

[Raymond]

If you are not a christian you would not understand. I say this because I have seen your website also and you are not the type of person I would want to share the problem with I'm afraid.

[perfectmarriage]

OK, fair enough.

[Liz]

Dear Raymond

I have been thinking about your concern about spanking. To me it is a questionable practice because it is about one person exerting power over another to punish them or inflict pain. That does not tie in with my understanding of making love that it is about expressing love for and joy in each other and giving the other pleasure. For me, making love is a celebration of the beauty of our love for each other and, as a Christian, it is holy, a place and time that should be free from selfishness, power or control.

When I have struggled with unhelpful thoughts or desires creeping into our love making, I have prayed and tried to remind myself of things that are good and wholesome and joyful about our relationship. It will seem strange to some people, but praying before or while making love is quite normal for a Christian. God is present at such times as much as he is when we are sitting in church, and the most intimate moments of our marriages are very important to him. Sometimes it is necessary to ask God to reveal our attitudes to making love and to enable us to allow him to correct and heal those attitudes.

I hope that may make sense and speak into your situation.

Liz

[Raymond]

Liz wrote;

That does not tie in with my understanding of making love that it is about expressing love for and joy in each other and giving the other pleasure. For me, making love is a celebration of the beauty of our love for each other and, as a Christian, it is holy, a place and time that should be free from selfishness, power or control.

You are absolutely right Liz and said so beautifully. I am striving to get there and do experience what you are saying quite often.

I've had this since age thirteen off and on, but is does not dominate the bedroom by any means. I don't enter into anything to do with punishment I instinctively knew that part was wrong when it first came up.

I know that the coming together is the main thing, which I do. This other thing happens sometimes in foreplay, more like a fun thing. I told DW I was going to give it up and she asked why? So it does happen occasionally as it doesn't bother her, and she is as sexually pure as one can get I think.

But your instincts may be correct. I have prayed about this a lot, so I don't just accept it as okay. The real danger is internet about it which I always strive to keep away from, unless it is discussed in an honest and non tittilating way. I don't think we enter into any real pain as such, and certainly no power or control. Maybe a bit of selfishness perhaps? So I am managing it and not feeding it from other sources. Something about it has been sexualised in me from a very young age rightly or wrongly.

I do value your comments and will take them on board.

God bless you

Raymond

[Married for Life]

Hi Raymond,

I share Liz's comments, as you do from your last post. It is to your credit that you want to ensure this doesn't get the better of you and become an overwhelming obsession. One question you may want to ask yourself is "Where did this fantasy come from?" in other words what did you see, hear, or experience that caused this fantasy to become a stronghold for you? Crack the answers to that question and bring them in prayer to God and it may help you in your goal of getting past the fantasy and to the place of love making being about expressing love for and joy in each other and giving the other pleasure as Liz put it so well.

[Raymond]

Thanks for your thoughts Married for Life. Those threads were a long time ago. Whatever happened to Liz?

I have obviously prayed and felt that God showed me an incident from when I was four in an orphanage I was in. I think it's possible to sexualise the wrong things and children are particularly vulnerable to this. So it's not a big problem but I still have to be on my guard. It never affected a huge part of my marriage, just something that would come up now and again, even much less now, but I still have times when I resist even when my wife suggests it.

Raymond

[Married for Life]

That's great Raymond that God showed you those things and you are where you are now. By the way we all have things that tempt us that we need to resist so be reassured you are not alone.

[Raymond]

Thank you for that Married for Life. I tend to think women are not tempted on that level but are in other things. I find it helful to remember the Lord's prayer "Lead us not into temptation." We will be tempted but we don't have to enter into it.

Sometimes I am glad that I am tempted as it shows I have been blessed by God with a good sex drive, but there is someone out there who wants to pervert it.

Raymond

[mermaid]

Oh Liz, it was interesting you talked about praying before or during love-making; my husband used to do that and to be honest, I found it such a big turn-off to think of God being present in our bedroom. If you feel Ok with that, then it's Ok, but to me, I feel God would rather turn his head away and let us get on with that, it's private. It's just my opinion; love making I feel was meant to be about fun and not too serious.
Mermaid

[Susan Strict]

Raymond (and Mermaid), I strongly believe that sex in all its varieties (except those that harm others, of course) is one of the greatest gifts that God has given us, and one of the great joys that I am absolutely sure He intends us to experience to the full.

Pain is not necessarily harm and certainly not in this case, nor does it affect anyone other than the two of you in the relationship. If you want to be spanked and your wife is happy to do it, then what harm does it do anyone as part of the intimacy between you? I believe you should listen to your body's demands - of this type and others - and think seriously about any urge within you before dismissing it OR acting on it. Your question is "what harm could it do?", and if the answer is "none" then follow it. A prayer or two doesn't hurt but, as we all know, the answer is not always clear and unambiguous. Guidance is wonderful when it appears, but we all have free will and may take decisions of this sort for ourselves.

Above all, I think, just because your particular desires may not suit everyone does NOT mean they are wrong. As I said before, consider whether your desires - whatever they are - could lead to any harm to yourself or to anyone else. If not, then take the joy of it to its full, and be thankful that you have been given the gift and understanding of a pleasure that cannot be enjoyed by everyone.

Good luck.

Susan

[MissonWorker]

Dear Raymond

Heb 13:4 says Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Okay so when I read this I understand that whatever I do in my marriage bed in undefiled! Sex is a pleasure made possible by God for a married couple. There are no instructions in the Word as to how to do it. We just know that it is honorable before God. So If I want to enjoy sex outside of the mission style I understand it's okay with God! If the wife and husband are okay with it then so is God! I mean your Christians! This is not dirty but holy before God. I strongley believe that your okay Raymond before God if you and your wife are okay with it!
God Bless!

[Kimberley1967]

Who is to say what goes on in the bedroom for one couple is wrong for another obviously if no one gets hurt. I believe that when you are married and you have made that committment then the bedroom is a private place and what goes on between husband and wife is no ones business. I also believe that thinking aboout God at that time may be a turn off as mentioned by Mermaid it wouldnt excite me I have to say.

Although since getting married our sex life has gone from strength to strength and I thought it was pretty wonderful before. The only man I think about is my husband even though it was a close call between him and Robbie Williams for a long time!

I believe that what goes on in the bedroom should stay there. I dont believe that God was specific in his details in the bible about sexual activities only that adultery was one of the deadly sins but I could be wrong so dont all fire quotations at me all at once.

[chosen]

I love it that God is included in our bedroom. My husband often prays that God will bless our sex life. God made us into sexual beings and he designed us to enjoy it.
Biblically God does say not to include anyone else(and that would also include porn surely?) and he also says that anal sex isnt allowed(bestiality). I cant see that Sadism and masochism would be very godly either, as it is a distortion of what loving sex should be, and also, clearly, not sex between 2 men or 2 women.

[Raymond]

Kimberley's comments make a lot of sense to me. The rules would be no third parties which would include porn etc. as Chosen has said. Obviously we are not thinking about God directly at the time but one is still grateful in their heart to God for His blessings. I have learned to pray before the time in certain situations. You have a lot to thank Him for in that area Kimberley as have I.

I am not sure about anal sex as I know a lot, even christians, do this. It is not bestiality as that is about animals. It is not my cup of tea but if we are sticking to the precept that the marriage bed is undefiled I don't think we can judge others who do this. Sometimes we can imagine the worst when the reality may be nothing like what we imagined.

Same with oral sex. I know the teachers at Ellel speak against this and yet it is accepted widely in christian circles. Have you faith? Have it to yourself. If they have faith why should I judge.

S&M on the face of it is not right if we take the real meaning of those words. Masochism is wanting punishment which is very unhealthy. However there are a small percentage who are switched on through stimulation in this area which can be nothing to do with masochism (a kind of self hatred and low self esteem) or punishment.

[chosen]

I think that bestality means "like a beast"not just having sex with an animal.

[Raymond]

It's spelt bestiality and it can be looked up on the internet, which should show the nature of it. It is a horrible thing and as you rightly point out it is forbidden in the bible. Lev 18:33.

[chosen]

As is sex between men(anal sex).The back passage isnt designed for a penis, the vagina is. The muscles go the wrong way, and it can cause damage, especially later in life. It is designed for excreeting waste, and not for things to be put into it.

[Raymond]

I tend to agree with you Chosen but I don't know if that is all there is to it.

I know that many christians will disagree with you. I prefer not to judge them.

[chosen]

having had pesseries inserted a few times,(painful and not nice) the thought of anal sex makes my eyes water. The vagina is designed to stretch for the penis, and the anus doesnt in that way. Real damage can result, including muscle damage resulting in all sorts of problems.
As you say God judges anyway.

[Kimberley1967]

I dont like porn never have and went to a convent school where touching yourself was also said to be very wrong. I still wont have porn in my house and never have touched myself I know that you all probably think thats a bit odd but it was the way I was raised and I dont think about it because I havent.

I sometimes have thoughts about my husband saying naughty things to be during the action so to speak but I get the impression he dosent like it so I dont ask and just enjoy fantasies in my head always of him though as we are newly weds. I guess when we are younger and there are no kids in the house etc you can be more open and have sex else where in the house or other places but nothing brings you down to earth than one of the kids banging on the door!

[Raymond]

Most inconsiderate kids. I trust you have a lock on the door.

A lot of couples enjoy specific verbal talk Kimberley so you are not alone. Sometimes I like my wife to do it but it doesn't come naturally to her and so it loses it's point really. Is it because I also went to a convent school at one stage? Maybe it's because of keeping pure all that time and now it is legal so to speak one needs to go the other way?

My wife also felt it was wrong to touch herself as it happens. So did I before marriage. I think you get a broad range of views on these things but I think you have the main point in that it is your husband and not some other person in your fantasies. It's what is happening in your head which is the important thing.

[Kimberley1967]

Yes the convent school rules really stick dont they.
It dosent bother me my eldest daughter thinks however I am the world's biggest prude! Each to their own. I know what you mean about initimate conversations in the bedroom if the other person dosent really enjoy it, its not worth it as it kinda kills the moment.

Must get lock on the door. Whilst my teenagers are in the other part of the house and are oblivious when my husband's kids stay they are 6 and 8 and nothing cools everything down like a hammer on the door.

Fantasies are okay like you say especially when they are about the one you love and are with. I personally think God looks down on us but realises there are personal times and keeps out of that. This has been my personal view.

I do still find that in times of unhappiness and seeking guidance I go to the local church and sit in the chapel and think things through. Although no longer a keen churchgoer for a number of years. I think faith keeps you going.

[Raymond]

You have to stick to your principles Kimberley. What is a prude? Some say it's those that do not have sex outside of marriage. If so I am a prude. My thought about it is those who find it difficult to enter the open sexual relationship that should be in marriage. I haven't heard anything from you to show that you are a prude.

The word is an old French word that means honourable woman and only became a derogative term because it was used against those who did not share their immoral standards.

As you say fantasies are okay so long as it is about your spouse. Unrealised fantasies must eventually bring frustration though. Some of mine happen and some die a death. That's okay. It's all part of adjusting to the one you are married to. I think all the fantasies are mine. My wife doesn't appear to have any so it all comes from me. She does say I am exciting. So that is something.

Yes get that lock. You don't want the boys barging in. Hopefully it's easier when they are not there.

This is my second try of this post as I lost the first one but this is nothing like the first one?

I have been in two convents and a couple of other places and know all the instructions. Deep down I was always afraid I'd have to be a monk or priest. I didn't want a life with no sex. When I left I went to church a few times, probably out of fear and eventually dropped off.

Later as an adult I found out that the important thing was a relationship with Christ. When an invitation came I asked Him in and have never looked back since. Funny how I never heard about that in the convent. They didn't seem to show us any scripture. Only catechism and certain rules.

I am waffling on now as I am tired from a hectic week.

When I said intimate talk I meant mentioning intimate parts in an erotic way and what was going to happen. Not any swearing which I think would be demeaning, but nevertheless something that you would never say outside of the bedroom.

[Kimberley1967]

I know what you mean.
I found Nuns strict and I hate to say it not very nice! Its strange that I left in 1982 but I still remember what they thought you should do and not do in many realms of life.

Had a long tiring awful weekend with the stepchildren result husband and I not speaking! So definiately no bedrooms antics for a while.

Take care.

[Raymond]

Don't let it go on too long Kimberley. It seems to me you have to work a little at accepting his children. I know you find it hard but that is part of him.

[Chamomile]

I'm quite surprised by the very candid content of this thread. It's very remarkable and praiseworthy :) Praise the Lord!!

As for anal sex, I believe there's an extensive Biblical reference as in Sodomy.

Quoted from Wiki

Sodomy (pronounced /ˈsɒdəmi/) is a term used in the law to describe the act of "unnatural" sex, which depending on jurisdiction can consist of oral sex, anal sex, or any non-genital to genital congress, whether heterosexual, homosexual, or with human or animal.

In modern German, the word "Sodomie" has no connotation of anal or oral sex, and refers specifically to bestiality.

I agree with everything Chosen had said. I have heard about a famous female porn star ending up getting some emergency operation to fix her 8 inch "rip".

[chosen]

Chamomile, yes it was candid wasnt it.lol. I think its good for us Christians to discuss such things if it helps. In the world, sex is rampant, its everywhere we look. so as believers we do need to put Gods side dont we, and to be open about any problems and difficulties that may arise. God made us as sexual beings, and sex in marriage is good and blessed. I do think that some of that Victorian type repression of sex, as being 'naughty', still remains in the church(although it is improving),and that is so sad. I mean, havent they read the song of songs? It is very erotic.
People have tried to spritualise it, but its a description of love and sex between a man and woman.
Blessings

[Chamomile]

I do think that some of that Victorian type repression of sex, as being 'naughty', still remains in the church(although it is improving),and that is so sad. I mean, havent they read the song of songs? It is very erotic. People have tried to spritualise it, but its a description of love and sex between a man and woman. Blessings Cannot agree more there Chosen :) Very inspiring too. Beannachd Dia dhuit

[Raymond]

My understanding of sodomy is that the word same from Sodom. In scripture it is to do with what homosexuals do. I have never heard it connected to marriage.

[chosen]

yes Raymond, its one of those grey areas I guess, but I know that for my husband and myself we both feel strongly that it is a no no, and that the back passage just isnt designed for that.
I have also heard from those who minsiter to, and pray with, those who have been into sexual sin, that evil spirits can be passed from one person to another through anal sex. To me it isnt something that I would ever feel comfortable with, and that God has given women a perfectly good place for the penis to go, and that is also how babies are conceived of course. I cant see how it can be done without causing physical damage, either then, or later in life.

[Forever]

There is nothing more disgusting than having a penis in a poop shoot. Every stroke feels (from the one on the "receiving end") like having a repeated uncontrollable LARGE bowel movement. I understand the sensation is different and desirable for the man, but there is a reason that God does not want us to act contrary to what He intended in nature. Those who practice this often end up with all kinds of tears and infections and if continued long enough, end up wearing diapers to prevent "accidents" from happening unexpectedly. The smell and bacteria being transfered is enough to get a clue.

What "spirit" do you think is promoting this perversion of God's design?

[chosen]

I agree forever, and that is why it makes me feel so uncomfortable. I know that it is said that if both spouses agree anything is OK, but I dont go along with that because surely for the one on the receiving end it must be exteemly painful and uncomfortable, and as you say it does do long term damage.

[Forever]

I also think there are other sexual practices going on now days that the Lord would not approve of, but which the Bible is silent. For instance, what if a married couple thought that smearing their fecal matter, or spraying *cough* all over his wife's face were a thrill among other things? Where is the love and supposed intimacy in that? Or what if they both decide that watching porn together is going to enhance their libido? Is this what sexually loving our spouse is boiling down to now days? I think some things are just worse than what animals would do, and degrading in and of themselves, and wonder how such things creep into the bedroom. We can defile the marriage bed by the spirit we bring to it...worldly.

Once those kind of lines are crossed, it is hard for the man especially to go back to what should have been considered normal and satisfying.

[Raymond]

I've never heard of any christians approving of porn Forever. Surely that is obviously wrong as it is introducing third parties into the bedroom and could open the way to temptation for one or the other.

As for the other you mentioned I won't even comment on it is it so disgusting.

Where did the Christian Marriage sex forum go?

[Chamomile]

I agree with both Chosen and Forever.
As you two, wisely mention, it looks like that various health-risks associated with anal sex are well documentated.
Attraction of anal sex must have something to do with the association of having power and control in giving anal sex to a woman who submits herself to this. Perhaps, the real attraction is crossing that boundary and a sexual deviation from the "norm"?
I would not be surprised if Porn has its huge role to play.
It's a shame to be honest, if there are some minority of Christian men who think that this type of sexual act would be giving their wives a great pleasure.

[Forever]

Raymond,

Seventy percent of men in the USA that claim to be Christian, (that means many unsuspecting women are marrying or are married already to these men), are caught up in porn. This is the reason why all those disgusting things are creeping into the average bedroom and why even Christian women are having to deal with such things.
These women CAN NOT even talk to their Pastors about the horror of it all, because some of the things that are happening are too humiliating and would make the Pastor turn green. Oh, and by the way...fifty percent of Pastors are caught up in porn here also, so who is safe to go to? It could also lead to a divorce once the husband finds out what has been exposed from the wife...kind of ruins his pious image.

Of course you have not heard of Christian men approving of Porn. They would never admit to approving of it yet they are still doing it.

That is why this was brought up in a Christian Sex Forum. Luckily, we are anonymous here. Where else can they go? If they go to a secular forum to find out what to do, they will be told to "loosen" up and learn to enjoy....even called names for not wanting to do these kind of perversions. Porn is the gift that keeps on giving.

It is an EVIL spirit that is seducing our men into perversion of every kind, and taking what God meant to be very good and turning it into something degrading. In my opinion, even the man who is wanting to do these things is just as degraded...but enjoys it too much to stop.

[Forever]

One other thing. My own husband used to quote the Scripture about how "the marriage bed is undefiled" in order to justify doing some of the things he saw on porn and to apply pressure on me to submit to it. He thinks that God sanctions anything and everything a married couple can conceive of just because they are married. Lucky me, I have a brain as well as a spirit that can sense when his spirit is being comandeered by something evil.

Homosexuals also hold hands, kiss, and cuddle as do lesbians. Does that mean these things should also be off limits to married couples since those groups do the same thing? Does that mean they can carry on in their relationships as long as they dont sodomize each other? My opinion is that the very core relationship between homosexuals is wrong regardless of whatever means they use to express their sexuality. They also do oral sex...does that mean we cant do any of that either? So it isnt just what they do, its what they are in God's eyes.

I think the act of sodomy in itself is a serious breach in God's design for any human sexuality, and that is why it is off limits...even to us that are not homosexual.

[Raymond]

I think that claiming to be a christian and being a christian are two different things Forever. Over here being a christian is not necessarily popular or fully understood so the situation is a bit more clear. I have never heard of any man involved in porn in our churches. I know that does not necessarily mean that it is not there. I have never actually come across it in any church I have ever been in. I think if one was doing it they would be under so much conviction of the spirit in the meetings that they would really have a hard time.

The nearest thing I got to it was a peeping Tom problem where he was warned consistently by the pastor and then eventually exposed to the whole church in a special meeting called for that purpose.

I think you are right about a spirit. I sometimes think of the flood proceeding from the dragons mouth to drown the church. Something is happening in our day and we are seeing a flood of it more and more. I can agree with you there.

One has no way of knowing how deep the problem is in the church here. One only sees their own type of churches and I don't think I have ever heard the word mentioned yet. Maybe the people who have a problem go to centres where they can get help anonymously and nobody ever hears of it.

I am a bit wary of judging what other married couples do in the privacy of their of their own bedrooms as that is their faith and who am I to judge. People can make pronouncements on practically everything saying it is wrong or okay but which the bible is silent about. In the end we are down to opinions and winning or losing the argument through majority or minority points of views which I think is a very erratic way of learning our marital behaviour. One just has to have their own faith before God for what they do or don't do. He is our judge and he uses our consciences, His word and others through whom He might speak through.

Personally I think it is a thing of joy that God has given in marriage which can be spoiled by a wrong guilt if we are not careful. I am talking about sex here not any particular behaviour and of course only in marriage.

[Forever]

I am glad to hear things have not gotten so bad there as they are here. I am not talking about sex in general either...I am talking about sodomy and other things that are obviously related to aberrant sexual behavior. Here, there does not seem to be any concensus as to what is over the top or influenced by spirits...so anything goes, as long as it is between a married couple of course.

As my Pastor says, go ahead and submit... "Spice it up"! when he hears a woman complain of what is going on in the bedroom. Thanks Pastor.

[Raymond]

One other thing. My own husband used to quote the Scripture about how "the marriage bed is undefiled" in order to justify doing some of the things he saw on porn and to apply pressure on me to submit to it. He thinks that God sanctions anything and everything a married couple can conceive of just because they are married. Lucky me, I have a brain as well as a spirit that can sense when his spirit is being comandeered by something evil.

Homosexuals also hold hands, kiss, and cuddle as do lesbians. Does that mean these things should also be off limits to married couples since those groups do the same thing? My opinion is that the very core relationship between homosexuals is wrong regardless of whatever means they use to express their sexuality. They also do oral sex...does that mean we cant do any of that either?

I think the act of sodomy in itself is a serious breach in God's design for any human sexuality, and that is why it is off limits...even to us that are not homosexual.

You've written this while I was writing Forever so I will just comment briefly before going to bed and maybe come back to it.

I think if your husband is importing things from porn there is something wrong there in trying them out on you. Hopefully come back to that.

I don't know why you are bringing up homosexuality. I can agree with what you have said. Who's arguing?

With regard to sodomy I do not see the basis for transferring it from homosexuality to marriage. I think that is a jump personally. These things are well documented. Sodomites did it and catomites received but it is never mentioned in scripture in relation to marriage only homosexuality. One can have personal points of view but I cannot see the scriptural basis, only that people have strong feelings about it.

Regarding oral sex it is the same problem. Some spiritual leaders speak or write against it. Others think it is okay. I have delved into this and done a bit of this but after a heart to heart chat with my wife about it she says she is not comfortable with it, so I have dropped it. I have found that it was a desire but not a need so it isn't a problem. I find she is comfortable with things which are a need for some reason which I am very grateful for. Everybody is different and individual and all has to be worked out with our own spouses not everybody else.

[Forever]

No "argument" coming from this side, just explaining what I think and what is happening over here in the USA. Homosexuality was thrown out to us by you as for the reasoning why sodomy may be fine between married couples but why it is wrong for homosexuals. I was just trying to say everything is a wrong sexual expression between homosexuals, even kissing, because the whole relationship is not sanctioned by God...not just sodomy if they are engaging in that.

I had first hand, very heavy conviction from the Holy Spirit each time I attempted to indulge my husband's demands regarding anal sex. Prior to that I had NEVER given it a thought since I was never married to anyone who wanted to go down that road. I then spent the next five years trying to explain why God was telling me NO, and why it went against His design for the body and for the dignity of the human soul (those conversations never once included the disgust I personally felt). He finally stopped trying and arguing, butt felt like I was just trying to control him. It is not true...I am trying to obey God.

I asked my husband what is the big attraction....he said because it is so "forbidden". I said, why do you think it is forbidden? He said, logically, it is certainly not designed for that purpose...he said everything Chosen said, but the attraction is still there because the sensation is good and because sometimes he wants to do what he is not supposed to do. He says it is rebellion in the most intimate form.

I have NEVER been convicted regarding oral sex...for me, it is not simply about personal preferences, but about being sensitive to what the Lord is trying to convey as acceptable/allowable or what goes way over the top.


Friends?

[Raymond]

Dear Forever you are coming across. If the Spirit has shown you not to submit to this then you have to do that and you are right in what you do. Being subject to husbands does not come before being subject to God. That God has shown to you that it is rebellion in DH that is finding it's expression in this, then of course you need to listen to that and obey God first as He has shown you.

My comments were about the principles of deciding whether any bedroom activity is right or wrong for everyone on the basis of personal criteria and feelings as one does get a huge range of opinions on these kind of subjects. However an argument is at the mercy of experience and you need to be faithful to what God has shown you.

With regard to HS's we have to now be careful in this country what we say because of certain laws. I can agree with you on what you say. Sodomy is one of the expressions of HS behaviour. The scripture doesn't particularly pick it out rather the whole behaviour of which sodomy can be a part as you have explained.

Going back to the other within marriage it still remains that one cannot necessarily win an argument on the basis of what one's gut feeling is or what the Spirit has shown us personally.

If you are happy with OS God bless you. This is what I wanted to please my wife with but she is not taking. Her call. The arguments I have heard are really against the man receiving on the basis of similar type arguments that you have made. Then again there is no clear scriptural argument to back that up, so really one cannot judge.

[Raymond]

Just thought I'd post the comment from Ingrid on the "Helpful Tips" section "Why do men need porn".

I didn't realise that when one gets into porn it actually begins to destroy the persons ability to enjoy really good sex and that if one continues to indulge in porn, it destroys their ability to engage in good sex with the person they really do love. The repetitive indulgence in pornography actually retrains a persons body to react in a different and unnatural way. It means (s)he can no longer be sexually aroused by her/his partner - (s)he can now only be aroused by sexual images and masturbating.

[chosen]

wow thats scary Raymond, and only serves to reiterate the evil of porn.

[Raymond]

Haven't we always known that anyway Chosen? It's important that a man knows it I think.