How long do I hang in there

[Trying]

I will have been married for 26 years this June. Last July I discovered my husband was having an afffair with someone at work. We have 4 children ages 22,17,15 and 10. He had had one other affair with someone else at work back in 1991 shortly after the birth of our last child.

I discovered that affair about 4mos into it, with about another 6mos of lying and deceit before I finally had enough strength to say I've had enough, you need to go. He said he didn't want to go, and ended it. During that time he claimed to have loved her, and lucky for us she was laid off the same time he ended the affair and consequently moved out of the area. We didn't do anything about this affair. I didn't consider counseling at the time because he just wanted to get on with life and pretend it hadn't happened. He never really would talk about with me, and because our kids were young I guess it was just easier for me to not deal with it either. (though the feelings of insecurity never really left me, and I can see not it really undermined our relationship) On the surface I felt we were ok and could get through it.

This time when I found out, I demanded we get counseling. Last time told very few people and became very isolated. My kids were too young and never knew. This time I told my boys since I consider them old enough to know but not my daughter since she is only 10. I also had to tell the boys this had happened before. My boys have been a great source of support, but this whole thing just seems to go on and on and it is emotionally draining to us all. I have also told family and some friends, and they too lend their support but people grow weary after awhile because there's really nothing anyone can do.

We started marriage counseling in September after my husband finally stopped lying and cut ties with the OW. In addition he sees a therapist and so do I. I needed to talk about the affairs during counseling and he found it all too difficult to handle. He stuck with it longer then I thought he would, but complained that he felt constantly bashed during sessions. He let it be known during these sessions that he still had strong feelings for this OW and he could not commit to me. I always felt that the counselor went easy on him to keep him engaged and coming. But ulitmately in March I caught him in a lie that was both devasting to me and to my boys. He had "promised" us in Sept. that he would stop seeing her and go to counseling and if anything changed he would not lie to us because he hated all the lying and deceit and so if he weakened he would come to us and tell us. He was not able to keep his word, and worst of all he had just had a conversation with one of our sons assuring him that he was having no contact with the OW. Then the following night he lied about a business trip and instead had spent the night at her place. Consequently, he refused to continue marriage counseling, though he sill sees his counselor and I still see mine.

Our communication has not been good through out this. He does not want to discuss it and feels I talk about it too much. I blamed myself last time, and did all the classic things to change and try to please him. I know this time around that it is not me but him. Yet I can see now that I still have been working over time to listen to the things he does say was wrong with us and work desparately to change them. Even during marriage counseling she would always say you're trying to do his work for him.

We were married right out of college. He has been my whole adult life. I cannot imagaine life without him. We have so much going for us, and truly believe for the most part have been quite happy through out most of our marriage. The things I do see is that he was frustrated alot over our sex life. I now see that I had built up years of restentment because I always gave and gave and expected him to notice when I was overwhelmed. We have a large family to care for and for the last ten years he has been traveling a great deal with his job. Infact his job and his absence around here because of it is a big problem. Anyways I took that resentment to the bedroom, and was always too tired etc.
I took a long hard look at that when he shared to pain he felt when we was always rejected. I have totlally turned myself around. The surprise was I always felt that sex was something I did to please him, but now it's something I do to please me and the two of us couldn't be happier in that department.

I have so much I could write about, but I think I'm getting too long. All while dealing with this it seems I'm doing all the right things counseling, talking to friends, and changing things about myself that I think will enhance us. Still I have experienced depression, anxiety and pain that never seems to go away. I have tried 4 anti-pressants, they all made me sick. My mind and life is consumed with bringing this thing to end so I can enjoy the life I thought we had.

I spent all those months of marriage counseling doing all I could to get in his head and see how he was feeling this week
and trying to reason with him of why he needs to this marriage for all the greatness it is, and stick by me and the family etc. etc. I did nothing but pursue. I have read some things now that point out this did not help and indeed, it has not. He still has very stong feelings for this women and I constantly live in fear that he will not do anything to get over her which is blocking any of the positive work we are trying to rebuild here.

He has taken no responibility for anything concerning any of this. After the most recent incident in March, I waited for him to say what he wanted to do now. He would not, he said he didn't know what he wanted to do. After about a week I told him I wanted him to move out to think about things. I felt it was not right what he was doing to me or to the kids. Even his counselor encouraged him to move out. He was stalling (and I have to admit, deep down I did not want him to go) It got ugly for a week or so, lots of emtional outbursts from me and anger from him. Up till then and even now (since he is still here) I go around myself acting on my best behavior so as to not discourage him and let him know how much he is loved and needed here inspite of what he has done. I am worried that I have been to accomodating so as to hold onto this marriage that I so desparately want. I feel he wants it too because if he had wanted to leave me for her he would have.

After that ugly hostile week, he still hadn't done anything about moving out so I gave him an ultimatium. That it was too painfull living this way and he needed to go this weekend or next. Well the "this" weekend came and went, then he had a business trip and when he came back I felt a little white flag raised and the following weekend was Easter. He had asked me to join him on two trips that we had planned months before. I figured what's the sense of pushing him out the door right now when maybe if he really wants to go away with me, it might be nice to just have some nice time together for a change. We had a GREAT time together, in fact, that is the problem. When we are together it is great. After we got back I begged him to open up with me, and tell me how he is feeling, and does he think things are improving for him. He hates to open up he says because when he admits his deep dark secrets, I jump all over him.

He has been right. After months of counseling and feeling that things were good between us, he admitted he still has feelings for her and might want to leave one day.

Well he opened up Friday night (two days after coming back from these Great Vacations) and admitted he still has feelings for her and doesn't know what he wants to do. I told him that I backed off from my request to have him move out because he has been acting more loving and caring toward me, and I felt that because he wanted to be along with me and share good times that it was a good sign. I have to admit, now that he was honest with me, it hurts to know things still look the same. I am discouraged to think he will never do what it takes to get over her and get on with us. Though he continues to live here and act as though he's happy here. I ask him I can I do, what does want, and he says nothing. It's not me, it's him. I tell him is it just patience you want or permission to leave. I feel I am stronger about having him go. I think I would still be devasted, but believe in time I could handle it now.

I am sorry this is so long. I have just been at this so long, working so hard, with no end in site. At what point do you call it quits. (There is something in me that will not allow me to call it quits) But it's too painful to turn myself around. I have worked so hard to save something I desparately want, I have awakened so many positive feelings in myself that it seems to me it would have hurt less if I just told him to leave way back last July.

Please help!!!!!!!!!!!!Is it just going to take more patience for him to come around, or am I just dreaming?

[Trying]

Maybe my original post was so long it's hard for anyone who might want to offer advice, to figure out what I am truly asking.

It's just that this whole mess has lasted so long, with no real resolution in sight. It was painful when I first found out that he was once again having an affair. I'm sure we both felt it was so painful the first time, it would never happen again. Though it seems to me we both made changes, they were really just a bandaid, and did not really address the underlying issues. It still seems we are not really getting to the real issues, because he does not want to discuss any of his true feelings.

I think I thought because he stayed and consented to couseling everything would work out. I'm sure I felt he would quickly "come to his senses". But that of course, is not what's happening. After all this time he still says he really loved this women, can't stop thinking about her, and gives me the old "I still have feeelings for you but don't know if I love you". Yet this crisis, has brought me closer to him then I think I have ever felt.

I stay at home with the kids and do not have a job or anything that can divert my mind from all this pain. In fact, I find it hard to do anything in the course of day except the bare essentials that keep my household running. I spend a great deal of time alone because most of the friends I use to see when the kids were young work now. My counselor suggests I do things to take care of me, but to be honest, I haven't a clue as to do. I feel like I am stuck, till my life is back in order. My thoughts all day (and night making sleep difficult) are obsessed with how did a life that seemed pretty good suddenly turn so bleak.

I have been nothing but loving and supportive to my husband all during this. I realize now, that is not how I was in the last year or so before discovering this. I complained alot, was irritable, and constantly overwhelmed. Rarely asked for help, and became very resentful of all I had to do as a wife and mother. We never really did fight as a couple but we would just stay away from each other when things got tough.

Now what do I do????? We never discuss the pain I feel, he can't deal with it. He does not like to see me weak and emotional, so for the most part, when he is around, I put on my strong face and show him nothing but love, appreciation how much he means to me. Is this wrong? Am I nelgecting myself here?

I feel like I am treated fairly well by him, but it is not as great as it was when things were truly good. And the part that I fear the most is he is so good at deceiving me. There were so many times looking back, that I felt something was not right and would talk to him and say are you sure we are ok, is there someone else in your life again, and he assured me there was not, and we were fine. Even point blank one time admitted the first affair was so painful for him he could never do that again, and yet what I didn't know was that he was in the middle of this latest affair.

He travels alot. It's extremely difficult not knowing whether or not he has contact with her.

I am getting long again. Bottom line..... What do I do now? Do I hang in there and continue to be patient? Am I too accomodating and make things too easy for him? Does this allow him to have his cake and eat it too? Should I insist that he leave to experience life without his family? Would this help or hurt our chances?

He keeps himself consumed with work and travel and therefore it appears to me he never allows himself to feel any pain that might otherwise force him into some action. We can't stay in this limbo of him not knowing what he wants to do. He doesn't know if he wants to continue with the marriage and yet he does not leave.
As of late I have tried not to keep bugging him so often with my questions of where are we going what do you want to do. But it's so hard for me. It feels so out of my control, I can't figure out what to do with myself during this time. Any suggestions?????????

[Kate]

Your posting was quite long, and we did hope to respond, but need a bit of time to give it full attention and consider what resources there are on the website. We will be responding.

All the best

Kate

[Time will Tell]

Hi Trying, I think I know exactly how you feel, (almost) but from the other side, I'm a husband with a wife in a similar position to your husband. (Only recently posted)

I know many of your feelings, thoughts pain and wishes......sorry, hope it gets better.

Since, from what I read your husband is not taking the actual situation totally on board, I would suggest a trial seperation. I have been through it, and from my perspective it helped. I had to decide what/who was important to me, and where my priorities lie. Perhaps it happened too late for me, but it has been a lot better, and improved our marriage (not accounting for other issues).

For you, I really would suggest you find something for you, a job, an interest, something to give you an interuption to the stress, or situation. Interaction with other people, and friends. From a negative perspective, if you do split up, it will provide a platform to move on from, and if not, it will enhance you and your self esteem, so helping your marriage in the end.

But, to me I always view this in the context of time and feelings. What am I willing to do for these people, how important are they to me, and in porportion, what is these "pieces of time" in the long run. Perhaps overly optimistic, however I wonder if you are similar to me in that respect. That 5 years, in my case, out of a 40 + year marriage (if it works) is minor, so I do what I can, if it is important to me.

If not, then define your priorities and go for it.

------------------
:) Time will tell.....

[Kate]

"It feels out of my control"... you say. Your husband's behaviour is out of your control, but your own life isn't. I agree with 'Time will tell' that it might help if you could find something to do, a part time job or hobby. I have known times when I've been really distressed about something and dwelt on it and got it out of proportion. I haven't been able to concetrate on anything and have gone around on "automatic pilot". It helps to get out of the immediate situation and things begin to get back into perspective.

This is not to say the original issue was not important, but that I had got too close and emotionally distressed about it, to get anywhere.

It sounds from what you have said that your husband likes to sweep things under the carpet and that the intensity of your reactions at times have reinforced this behaviour in him.

You also both brushed the issues under the carpet when the first affair happened and so didn't learn and grow so much from it as you both might have done. There is a section on the site about affairs (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/marriageclinic/infidelity/) and a specific article on dealing with affairs (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/marriageclinic/infidelity/patternaffair.html). You might like to browse through it and see if anything there helps.

Another area you might like to explore is the relationship basics (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/marriageclinic/relbasictopic/) area of the site. There are articles there on handling conflict, communication, understanding your feelings and what love is really all about. There may be some ideas there on how to build up honest communication togather.

The fact your husband talks about having feelings for you and the other woman, but not knowing which of you he "loves", shows that he is struggling to understand what it means "to love". The fact he is still with you shows he understands that love is about commitment as well as feelings, but that he is still acting on his feelings because he hasn't let go on his mistress.

On your side love is about giving and being patient and loving, but in wanting what's best for the one we love and for our marriage, there are times when we need to challenge and help the one we love face up to realities and decisions that are needed in life. Unfortunately only you can make the decision whether, when or how to do that.

Sometimes the journey can seem long and weary, but if the aim of the journey is worth it - your precious marriage to your husband, then it's worth it in the end.

Keep in touch.

Kate

[Trying]

Thanks Kate for your reply

Your (and Time will Tell) advice to find hobbies or a part time job were well taken. Even my husband has made the same suggestion. It seems I have been in this paralized state like a vicious cirlce of "I can't do anything because I'm so unhappy about my life right now". But I'm able to do a little more then I could in the beginning so I hope that over time, I will be able to do more and more.

There is a great deal of helpful articles on this site, but your suggestions were worth rereading since it is hard to retain so much information. I do want to say how much I enjoy this site because there is so much to read and it helps to read the other postings and see you are not alone.

You are right about the intensity of my reactions and reinforcing my husband to shy away from talking about these issues. I am working on this.

He would prefer not to talk at all about any of this. That's what makes it hard. How do I get him to feel safe enough to open up and how do I word things so he does not become defensive. I think that's why he could not stick with the marriage counseling. He could not deal with those times he felt bad. It was like reopening wounds for him every time we talked. We are spending alot of time alone, trying to keep things fun, and acting very loving toward one another. But I still need to know is this marriage where you want to be, and are you going to do the things it will take to work yourself over the feelings you have for this other women. When I try to bring up a topic like that, he accuses me of killing the moment, "never getting over things", or do we have to talk about "phyche 101", all things to avoid the subject.

Do I try to talk about this with him or do I leave him alone? Do I just let him be and hope that the counseling he is receiving on his own works him through. We are much more attentive to each other (like we use to be) and have learned many things about each other that we had not learned after the first affair. But communication and all the things I have read here and else where seems to be our biggest problem. He does not read any of these things. How does a couple improve these things when only one seems to doing the questioning, seeking, learning etc. and one just wants it to get better and go away. Will my patience, love, and understanding get him to do anything concerning those "feelings" he has for the other women. After reading those things on love and feelings, I myself, have a better understanding, how does someone who doesn't know the difference come to understand such stuff without reading. When I have suggested readings before I am met with disapproval.

How do "I challenge the one I love to face these realities and decisions" without scaring him to death and pushing him right out the door. It seems to me, that's what this women was to him, the place you run to when life gets too much.

[Trying]

Thank you Time Will Tell for responding and sharing your experiences with me. You are right, our situations are similar.

I go back and forth on this issue of separation. It's hard because at first I couldn't even imagine such a thing. During the period we were seeing a marriage counselor, my husband would say every so often he didn't know how he was feeling when ask by her what his level of commitment was, he wasn't sure he wanted to stay. That would always hurt me and make me react so emotionally. But after time I realized I could not hold to him, if he truly wanted to go. Fact is, he never did say he wanted to go. He never once said to me he wanted to go, just put it out there during these sessions like it might be a possiblity one day. When he lied about a business trip and had infact spent an overnight with his lover, even then he did not say he wanted out. Finally it was me that asked him to move out, that maybe he needed to do this to set his priorities. As you saw from my posting things have improved between us because I have backed off. Now we seem to be getting along better, but still questions remain. Just as they do for you.

You are the one who separated in the past and apparently that helped you set your priorites, but now your wife is sort of where my husband is. If my husband wanted to move out now, so he could figure out what he wanted, I think I would be strong enough to deal with that now. But now he doesn't go, I would have to make him leave and that's what's hard right now. I'm not sure if I should make him leave or let him stay and hope that he is sincerely dealing with things and not just pretending everything is fine.

I have read your post and it looks as though you suspect your wife has contact with her companion. How are you able to cope with this? Do you just go on about your business and hope everything will work out in time? That's what I can't figure out for myself. Should I just go on about life, be patient, caring and loving and hope it all works out?

Lastly, your suggestion of a part time job or hobby was well taken. I felt so lousy for so long it was hard to want to do anything except what I had to do to keep my family running, but little by little I seem to be feeling better and wanting to do more.

It helps to know someone knows how you feel. I wish you well.

[Kate]

You have put your finger on the heart of one of the issues - how to respond to our husbands when they are doing something that we are very unhappy about, but they won't listen when we try to bring the subject up.

I went through a similar experience with my husband on a different issue, not to do with affairs or other women. I was very concerned about a particular behaviour of his and I didn't handle things very well. There was a lot of friction, partly because I was trying to change him all the time and partly because he wouldn't listen. There came a crunch point when he had to face up to it. In the end he was able to admit that he had been building up his self worth through this behaviour and found the will to change. At times I felt very hurt and angry with him. What kept me going, and gave me the wisdom to respond helpfully to him when I was able to, was prayer. In the end I believed God was at work in the situation and I had to let things take their course, even though there were consequences for me as well as for him. Throughout it all I think what I learned was the importance of loving him, the person, while not condoning his behaviour. He knew I wasn't happy about what he was doing and I still challenged him from time to time and those times were painful and sometimes a bit frightening as the "boat was rocked". I had to choose the time to say things and not go on about it all the time. I never gave him reason to doubt my commitment and love for him. Sometimes in marriage, I think we need that safety net of the other's love to hold us while we work through issues we are struggling to face.

It's good your husband is still going to a counsellor, because he obviously has issues to sort out for himself. This time round, he's not sweeping things under the carpet as much as after the first affair. That gives hope that he will reach a point when he's ready to face the issues in your marriage.

You say how can you get him to read and understand the things you've learnt. Well perhaps you have to try not to look at things from the point of view of changing him. One of the most powerful ways of teaching is by example. So if you believe in what you've learnt about love and communication then use it, but bear in mind how he behaves and communicates. Some folks have the personality type that allows life to develop, they don't want to analyse everything, plan everything in advance and have everything sorted and clear. Your husband may be like that. Whereas you may be one of those people who likes to be organised, know where you stand, with no loose ends. Having different personalities doesn't mean you can't be happily married - it brings challenges and variety as well as a few problems.

Looking back again over your postings, I wonder if what he really needs from you is unconditional love and acceptance. He doesn't want to be pressured to change. If there's too much pressure he may come to believe that he is not good enough for you as he is. He may feel powerless to change at present. Most of us want to be loved by someone who can accept us in all our weaknesses, someone we don't have to pretend with or hide from. To love someone that way is not a sign of weakness, it's not condoning bad behaviour, it's loving them inspite of that. It gives the security between you for the challenging word to be spoken. It may be that you only need to say a few words. Offer them as where you are coming from, what you believe, what you are feeling and if he doesn't want to talk or you begin to slip into an argument or wanting reassurance from him, then it may be best to leave the matter and just let those few words find root for a while.

Remember there's no reason why you, his wife, shouldn't become the person, he "runs to when life gets too much."

[Trying]

Kate,

I have never felt so understood before! Sometimes even when I have put these postings here, it seems I ramble on and I'm not even sure what I'm asking. But some how you have muddled your way through and answered many of my key concerns.

"He knew I wasn't happy about what he was doing and I still challenged him from time to time and those times were painful and sometimes a bit frightening as the "boat was rocked". I had to choose the time to say things and not go on about it all the time."
I can really relate to this and frequently find myself stewing about whether or not I should bring up a particular thing that's bothering me and then if I do, I can go on about it and that makes matters worse.

Your were right about our differing personalities me wanting to analyze, organize and plan and he does not. Realizing and understanding this difference will help me. Your words about taking what I have learned from my readings and show by example were equally helpful.

I feel like what I am showing him is unconditional love and acceptence. I have stood by him through hugley painful things during the course of this thing. When I found out another affair was happening I reached out to him to say I do not want to give up on this marriage, since it has happened a second time, let's find out why. I have been knocked down many times along this way because of lies and deceict. But still I get up and want to keep working at. I think I get frustrated wondering why he doesn't seem to see me standing by him, loving and accepting him inspite of all this pain. But think what you may be telling me is give it time and he will see. Maybe he sees some of that love and acceptence and that's why he doesn't leave or give up himself.

I had an incident last night and this a.m. that kind of lends itself to many of the things you said. Some parts of it I'm not sure I did the right thing, maybe you could help. I'll try to be brief.

We spoke on the phone at the end of his work day. He said he would be a little late. We have had many discussions on "working late". It is, of course, a sensitive subject, because it could be about her, but also, over the years sometimes he just wanted to go out with people in the office for a few and I would make him feel bad or quilty. (he travels alot and does have to stay in the city alot entertaining for business) Naturally I am home alone with the kids alot and this has always been a bit of a problem, regardless of whether or not there has been an affair going on. Because he feels can't deal with me on the phone making him feel bad about going out he has on occaision lied. When he said he had to work a little late, I didn't make a fuss but when he got home he was more then a hour later then he said he would be. And there are always little things said that don't make sense, when people are not being honest. I have to admit I did not believe him, but still said nothing. But in the morning I found a receipt indicating he had been out at a bar. It never feels good to stoop to snooping, and it doesn't feel good confronting a lie, but I was not emotional. In the most loving way I could, I said I don't know what this (receipt) means, but I want you to know I just can't deal with lying. He then told me it did not concern the other women, but that he had an oppertunity to meet some people that were in from out of town. He knew he would not be late and since he knew I was cooking a favorite of his for dinner, he couldn't deal with what I might say if he told me he was going to go out.

He is right about me "flipping out on the phone", but I am working on that, he knows that and he knows it is getting better. His lying is a huge issue for me. I did not make it an issue however. I just responded in a loving way that I understand how hard it use to be for him to make that call, but to give me a chance, and to know that telling the truth and telling lies both hurt, but telling lies is much harder to recover from. He knew I was stewing during the night, he felt my restlessness in bed. (it was not till morning and finding that receipt that I knew for sure it was not the truth I was getting last night.) I told him I was sorry to snoop but at least I now knew what he did. I felt sorry that he still did not have the courage to trust me (trust that I would not give him a hard time about going out.) Maybe he's right. I know that on one hand I'm always saying risk it, tell the truth, but on the other hand I still might have last night made him feel bad when he called because I had a nice dinner waiting. But now knowing what has transpired this a.m. I will keep this in mind on those phone calls. Because more then anything I want him to feel comfortable telling the truth. What kind of marriage are we going to have if he can't be comfortable with the truth. This morning he used one of his usual lines of :that's why we're never going to make it, if this is how we're going to live (regarding me snooping, finding a receipt, and then confronting him). He always seems to turn things around so that it's the things that I am doing that will in the end ruin this marriage. But I held my tongue, stood my ground on just tell the truth, and did not let "go on" as you had said. It did not turn into and argument, and it did not become emotional. What are your thoughts here?

Was it wrong for me to snoop? Was it wrong for me to not say anything when he turned the attention from his wrongdoing to me? Was I showing unconditional love and acceptence here? This is the grey area for me, because I'm not sure if I'm being taken advantage of or not.

Thanks for listening and understanding me. You have no idea how much you have helped me in such a short time. You have done more for me here then all the months of therapy.

[Kate]

Dear Trying,

Well done, you are living up to your name and really trying to love him where he is. It isn't easy and it is painful and tough to seem to be the one who has to give and not react to criticism. But you are taking responsibility for the mistakes you've made in the past and doing what you can to put it right. It sounds as though you handled the situation this morning really well with him. One of the commonest tactics when someone is caught doing wrong is to try and turn the blame off them by attacking the other person.

It's a real dilemma, not to snoop and confront him with the evidence. I'm not sure snooping helps, it's a bit like the saying "two wrongs don't make a right". I suppose it's because it polarises things - he worries about you checking up on him, so he has to cover any of his tracks he thinks that you won't like. It becomes a vicious circle. There's never going to be any real trust develop until one of you starts taking the risk by breaking the circle.

Do you ever get the chance to talk about his work and how he feels about it? I know it's hard that he works long hours and isn't back to support you with the children, but does he know that you value him in supporting the family in this way? That may mean a lot to him.

You ask about whether you are allowing him to take advantage of you. It's so easy to get into a sort of win/lose mentality and you find you're fighting each other in subtle ways. What you want to look for is what are called win/win strategies - in other words what you've been aiming for all through by trying to show him unconditional love, that is, the survival and growth of your marriage for the good of both of you.

I'm glad what I've written has helped. Hang on in there. Your love can change things!

[Trying]

Thank You Kate for responding

My morning incident of snooping and confronting him with the receipt went well then but a incident later that evening made things much worse.

My husband provides extremely well for us and has always controlled the finances. When I found out about the current affair in July I paniced about my lack of knowledge and felt if I suddenly needed to run to a lawyer, there may be no records at my disposal, so I went about copying any financial information I could find. I tucked it away "in case I ever needed it". I suppose at the time it empowered me (at one of the many times) when I felt powerless. My husband discovered the envelope and became furious with me. Our finances are a very senstive issue with him and though they are not secret from me (he doesn't involve me, and I don't get involved) he was "hurt that I would go behind his back and do such a thing, because if asked he would never withold such info.", he told me. Meanwhile, I see from friends and read that during divorce situations people react very differently. No comparison seems to have made to the fact of how repeatedly I have been hurt by what has gone on behind my back through out these affairs.(Nor did I make any comparison----I made no mention of this) I told him I felt bad for how it looked, that I had done nothing with the info, and that I did it at a time when everything seemed so scary. (What I didn't know is that is just as scary today as it was in July).

I wrote him an email the next day because I could collect my thoughts better and I knew he would not talk with me about how he felt now that he had "bad feelings about me". I told I knew how discouraged he must be feeling now, and that I hoped that we could work our way through this. He wrote back to back to say he realized that it would be hard to trust him after all he had done over the past 10 years, but that he doubted he could live long term with someone who snooped over his shoulder all the time and copying that info was the icing on the cake. Maybe we needed to separate for awhile to clear our heads.

I had asked that he move out when I discovered in March that he had lied to me about a business trip and had instead spent the night at his lover's place. You remember I had wrote that I backed off when he raised the white flag and we took those trips. When he now suggested that we should separate, I was inwardly discouraged that I have been so tolerant of so many hurtful things he has done, but stood by him, and now I have done one thing that has hurt him and that's it. It had been suggested to me by counselors and friends alike that he needs to move out to figure out what he wants and up till now he wouldn't go. So as I said inwardly it hurt to hear that but also I felt well at least something is going to happen here, and maybe some questions one way or another will get answered.

The day he sent the email, he had a dinner commitment and did not return home that evening till 3:00 A.M. He does alot of night time client entertainment along with travel and this is a frequent issue with us. Since he has an hour commute and the people he is with are usually out of town guests, nights can be late(something he can controll but enjoys this perk of his job, so doesn't). They are not usually that late, but I'm sure he wanted to push a button this evening. We had some words but nothing emotional. Infact his email ended with Let's Talk. Something I looked forward to, since he never says that. But as yet he won't talk. Won't even talk about whether or not he still wants to separate. Over the weekend I tried to talk but he refused. He did have a session with his therapist, but I am never allowed to know what goes on there. I remained loving toward him and he is somewhat back to me.

What gives???????????????? Now I once again have that what's happening feeling, what does he want. Plus now I have pledged to him I will no longer snoop, that continuing was not allowing us to develop trust, as you had suggested. So again it feels like he holds all the cards. He can come and go as he pleases, ( and that could be with her because as he has shown me, his behaviour is the same whether he's happy or not lying or not. The times he was caught cheating were when I snooped and discovered it, not that he was displaying dissatisfaction) and he doesn't have to make any decisions because I am here showing him love and acceptence.

It's true doubt has set in and I am wondering if I'm still doing the right thing. Is this just one of those testing moments? How is it that he will ever face the decision of whether he wants this marriage or her. I am confused about pressing him to talk or let it ride, but if I let it ride what am I to do with myself on these nights I am alone. Once again, HELP!

[Kate]

Bless you, it's really hard to see the way forward isn't it.

Feeling taken for granted and out of control of life is very hard. Loneliness is hard to bear, especially as you can so easily sit around wondering what is going on. It's good to acknowledge the feelings you have. But remember you are in control of your life, even choosing not to retaliate or not to snoop are decisions that you are choosing to make. You can act differently any time you choose, so he hasn't actually "got all the cards". That still sounds like there is some sort of game or competition going on here in the way you see things. Can you try and look at things differently in terms of fighting for your marriage rather than fighting or competing with your husband.

I'm sure the counselling process has been about enabling you to understand yourself and the situation and make choices for yourself. Loving someone and trusting them does involve risks, which in fact both partners in a marriage take to some degree or other.

It is important to keep the communication with your husband open somehow. You both need to be able to share how you are feeling and what your concerns are in a constructive way. I don't know if your husband would be open to the idea of some more input to find a way forward. It does strike me that you could benefit from some positive input and a forward direction, rather than being stuck in a rut going nowhere in particular.Marriage enrichment programmes (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/healthclub/servprov/) are designed to be forward looking and to build communication and openness. Would he consider something like that as an investment in your future rather than a suggestion of problems or failure in the present. Marriage Encounter (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/services/meang/) for example enables you to become more aware of your feelings and attitudes to marriage and helps you to build openness and communication. Most of those on this site are UK based. If you live elswhere there are often links to similar programmes in other parts of the world.

[Trying]

Kate,

Thank you for your response and for reminding me that I am in control when I am choosing to make the decisions I have made. Also, I will remember that I fighting for my marriage not competing with husband and will work toward keeping that it right perspective.

It does appear that we are rather stuck. My husband seems unable to make a decision of whether to go or to stay. Maybe does not want to take the responsibility. He does not look inside himself either but he does still see his counselor so maybe one can not hide forever. I have been "rocking the boat" a bit lately, and I have noticed that he has been angry and short on patience especially around our youngest child. Does this mean things are getting stirred up, and he is having trouble holding it all together. Maybe that's when things can become unstuck because you just can't live in limbo forever. He would not be receptive to any more outside help for the marriage. He could not handle the marriage counseling. I think I see now how much he needs to work on himself and I would rather he do that now if he is able.

This is from your post before last and I need a little help to figure out exactly what you are asking me-------
Do you ever get the chance to talk about his work and how he feels about it? I know it's hard that he works long hours and isn't back to support you with the children, but does he know that you value him in supporting the family in this way? That may mean a lot to him.

Value him in supporting the family in WHICH way? We have talked alot about work and always seem to go round and round. I have always tried to let him know I appreciate how hard he works. He earns a great living and provides extremely well for us. I believe too well actually, because if earning that kind of money means it's OK to be away from your family that much it's not worth it. He has choices concerning work, he can limit his travel and the number of evenings he is out "entertaining" with dinner and drinks and the hour he arrives home from those evenings. When life was better for us it was obvious what came first in his life. His job fills him with a certain self-worth. He hides (or escapes) at work and tries to make his family believe he does it for us. His kids are no longer kids they are 22,17,15 and 10. There are so many things that he misses out on and doesn't even realize. There are so many things that happen with them at an emtional level that he is never here to deal with. You learn as you go with teenagers, (and believe me you make alot of mistakes, but all of those dealings have brought me much closer to my kids) They "talk" with me, they trust me to listen to their problems. But they don't talk with Dad because he's not around enough for them to build that kind of trust. The kids are not blind and feel that Dad cares more about work then them.

I have talked with him about work and I believe he feels what do you want from me. I work hard to provide you with money for the things you want (things he thinks I want). I can't work hard and be there for the kids too. He never seems to understand we want him more then we want the money. What are your thoughts here?

[Time will Tell]

Hi Trying.....and Kate.

Scary stuff, so familar.....

Perhaps my experience again may (then I'm not out of the rough either) help. I was like your husband. Working long hours, and yes it gave me a sence of worth, then adding that to sport etc, I was missing out on the main point - Life. Why do I go to work, to have a life, to support my family, to allow me to do things with them that help us all. A good income is great, and helps all concerned, but all income and no time, is of no real value. Hence my wife raised the issue, as I was neglecting her, and the kids, and she got tired of it. I agree with her now, at the time, it was hard to take, as I had all the "right justifications" etc, doing for it the "right reasons" but it came down a lot to self worth, were I felt I could help/contribute in a "safe way". At home/family etc, I was not in my comfort zone, compared to work, where I was in charge, knew the ropes, etc. So we seperated, as you know, and I got some focus, really had to think about what was important, and when it came down to it, yes self worth was important, income for family etc was good, but my family and home life were more important that anything (Otherwise, why not move a bed under my desk). It hurts to go through it, and we are still recovering, and alot of damage was done to my wife, which we are tyring to get through now. However I still have the same job, people know I value family as a priority, and I am a better person and manager as a result I feel.

I agree sometimes you have to bite your tongue, and it can be hard, but it helps. Trust is two way, even if one person has done the "betraying", I think they have a "guilt" that needs to be overcome and they need to feel/believe thay are forgiven (hard work on our part, but essential) as part of the overall healing of the relationship.

Anyway, I think I'm starting to drift......

Hope it helps, I know seeing someone in the same circumstances helps me. http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/ubb/smile.gif


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http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/ubb/smile.gif Time will tell.....

[This message has been edited by Time will Tell (edited 13 June 2001).]

[Kate]

Thanks Time Will Tell. I think having a man's perspective on working long hours and what work meant to you helps. Your insights are really interesting.

I know I found my husband's attitudes to work strange until we managed to talk about them, and it was painful at times. I resented the time he spent at work and felt neglected. I found it very hard to stand in his shoes and not dismiss what he was telling me, but in the end it did help to understand what motivated him. What that listening and understanding exercise did was to free him from feeling defensive, and meant he became more open to times when I asked for specific help which meant putting the family before work. He also had to take the time to try and face up to what his attitude to work was and whether it was healthy or not.

In my case I realised how grateful I was at that time to not have to work and to be free to do other things, because my husband was the bread winner and I told him so. He said that really made a difference in his life and helped him to view his work differently. He has over the years really tried to ensure that work is serving the family and knowing that is his priority, I can be understanding when he does have to work long hours or travel, because I trust he's doing it because it really is necessary for his job. I accept too that he has personal pride and wants to do well in his career and there are times when that won't necessarily be convenient to me. I accept those occasions because I know the family does come first overall and I want the best for him too.

It's taken time to get to where we are, just as it's taken Time Will Tell time to work through the issues. His long working hours are obviously causing friction between you, which was why I thought it might be an area that was worth exploring.

[Trying]

Hi Kate,

Thanks for responding.

I wanted to respond to these things you said:

In my case I realised how grateful I was at that time to not have to work and to be free to do other things, because my husband was the bread winner and I told him so. He said that really made a difference in his life and helped him to view his work differently. He has over the years really tried to ensure that work is serving the family and knowing that is his priority, I can be understanding when he does have to work long hours or travel, because I trust he's doing it because it really is necessary for his job. I accept too that he has personal pride and wants to do well in his career and there are times when that won't necessarily be convenient to me. I accept those occasions because I know the family does come first overall and I want the best for him too.

I, too, over the years have let my husband know how much I appreciate the fact that he works as hard as he does, to provide us with such a comfortable lifestyle and how lucky I am to have been able to stay at home raising our kids. When our marriage was at a happier place I too was able to go with the flow of the demands of the job. I would be understanding too if he ensured that work was serving the family and that was his priority. During the affair and even now because it is not clear whether or not he still sees the other woman, work serves not only the family but himself in that it allows opportunities to travel with the other woman and keep long hours that aren't neccesarily "at work". It is so hard to accept those demanding aspects of the job when you don't know that the family comes first. He has not addressed those aspects of his life that Time Will Tell has. And he still expresses the fact that he doesn't know whether or not he wants to stay married.

I really would not have such a hard time with the travel and long hours if there wasn't the issue of trust. He is not home many nights a week and I never really know where he is. When I ask questions I make him feel controlled and not trusted. It's so hard to just blindly trust when you really have no way of knowing one way or another. I think it's much harder now, actually knowing that this love he thinks he has for this other women has such power over him depending on how he's feeling here. I can apparently make him "feel bad" if he feels I don't trust him, and I have to little to base any trust on.

As I had posted on Time Will Tell, I know he would "feel" the happiest if I would totally refrain from speaking on anything to do with this, and just have fun laughing, loving and playing as we use to. I would love that too, but with so much pain and turmoil as I try to have fun, the pain just sits underneath like I'm pretending to have fun. But is this what you have been trying to show me. Provide them with those things they need now like a life that is full of fun (like the life they escape to)make them feel safe and loved. Put aside the talk and the pain because they can't deal with it now???

And what are thoughts on separation? Part of me now thinks that will be the only way he will face some of his issues, but part of me is afraid since he does not go and I would have to push. It feels like giving up and I don't want to do that or imply that.

[Kate]

It's very difficult to advise on whether to get your husband to live separately from you for a while. If you're going to separate, it does need to be with some purpose and structure, rather than open ended. Your uncertainty won't actually get much less just because he isn't living with you.

We've just added a new article on trust (http://www.2-in-2-1.co.uk/marriageclinic/infidelity/trust/) to the site, which you might like to have a look at.

I'm not advocating you ignoring the problems and being nice to him and hiding your pain. What I meant was if he's looking for something which he thinks he finds elsewhere and not with you, then show him he can find it with you too. But you can still make it clear firmly that you don't want to share him with a mistress.

Hope that helps a bit

Regards

Kate